My friend was on the jumpseat. We were in the same newhire class at Mesa. Sean was a good guy. The FO that crashed it was known to be argumentative when people tried to give him advice. It's a small industry.
@@qwaszx2 it only relates to a low pay requirement. Airlines can find competent black pilots in the U.S. as well, if they want greater diversity in their workforce, but that comes at a higher price tag.
@@qwaszx2 I don't think the hiring part is the problem.....the standards need to be the standards. The real question is whether airlines are firing people that need to be fired....regardless of race sex..ect. If airlines feel pressured to not fire someone because of "quotas"....that's on the airline allowing HR to override safety. A lot of people should be looking in the mirror asking if they did their jobs correctly over this accident. Sorry for the loss of three people....just glad it wasn't more. The "pilot shortage" I'd argue has allowed a dip in standards to put body's in seats....I guess Covid has stop that for awhile. Just sounds like nobody wanted to be the guy to get someone fired....which apparently he had been from other carriers. Anyone else see the irony of the industry telling us after the Colgan crash to never pull back yoke in a stall (which is correct)........now a crash where they pushed the yoke? I know it's kind of different given it wasn't even close to stall..... .
46 degrees pitch down. I'm asking the other pilots here, has anyone ever seen another pilot "accidentally" pitch down 46 degrees, somatogravic illusion or not?
@@xxxxxxxxxxxx_xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx The evidence presented strongly points to either suicide or severely irrational psychotic behavior. But I don't think anyone else is willing to agree to that. They just want to say poor skills and poor screening of those poor skills, because it's more fun to say.
@@Bill_Woo Yeah I am quite puzzled at the absence of this discussion. Even the timing was perfect. Some might think closer to the ground would be better, because less reaction time from Captain. However Captain would be hyper-focused during landing and most liked would prevent deviations. This was perfect time - right when flaps would be expected, so aircraft pitching would not alert the Captain, and also when Captain was distracted on the radio.
and I'll add to this. Has anyone ever seen another pilot, student, private, or a pro accidentally negative G the airplane? We have all seen an accidental unloading, maybe to a little less than 1 g (like 7/8ths G or so), but to keep pushing into the negative G range by accident?
If you see that (apart from aerobatic flights), you're dead within seconds. But there are several recent similar cases with serious nose-down crashes after go-arounds. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flydubai_Flight_981 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan_Airlines_Flight_363 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armavia_Flight_967 In all these cases, the pilot flying became partically incapacitated by stress factors after the go-around. We sit here, looking at thsi horrible nose dive developing, however the PF did not have the same mental picture as us, possibly not scanning his instruments, or scanning, but unable to comprehend what they show. They all died without knowing what killed them, even if the AI is right in front of them.
I've been in complete IFR several times where I would swear that I was nose up 30 degrees about to stall. I never got nervous about it, I just noted the effect as fascinating, and stayed on my instruments like a hawk.
@@edsupinski7039 Yeah ,i hope he's ironic cause the "some sort of visual aid to tell him what the plane's actual pitch was" is the big colorful instrument in front of FO's nose, the Attitude indicator with the artificial horizon, as we all know.
That may be true, but the question is, how do you prevent that person from being in that seat at that time? In this case, the system almost worked as intended right up until it didn't work at all.
@@qwaszx2 Well clearly I must be, so please prove me wrong. Please tell me where amongst the 71 documents and 2279 pages of the NTSB docket that you claim to have read, I can find where it states the FO was a diversity hire?
@@jeffreyjones7529 Racists have to be dickheads. They always have to cry that somebody else is doing better than themselves. I have seen that "diversity hire" BS on the NTSB video as well. The pilot's name was not even mentioned in this video so they are bouncing around the videos spouting their garbage that there cannot even be evidence for. Do companies have that as the reason a person is hired? If it is not stated in the company file, I don't know why it would be, they are just regurgitating garbage they believe. Perhaps the authors of those intentionally false statements are so incompetent themselves that is the excuse they use to attack people.
You can't fire basketball-americans nowadays, no matter what the reason is. I had to say basketball-americans because this platform automatically censors any comment that includes the word describing a specific color. Here's a hint: it's not blue pink or green.
Amazon was booming during Covid...don't think pilot's were being laid off. On the contrary, probably they were in desperate need of more of them. Maybe for that reason the Airline just took a chance on him, who knows ?
As an industry captain this makes me nauseous. We know when we can trust the guy/gal next to us or not. I welcome a little more scrutiny in the pilot selection process. Farming out selection is a bean counter fail that unfortunately has led to a fatalities.
"Weak piloting skills?" He didn't have any. I did have to avert my eyes. The stupidity was overwhelming. Shades of Air France 447. That idiot did the opposite but with same results.
That one still boils my blood, guy kept pulling up without thinking it through. The other one was Colgan flight 3407 where the guy ignored the stick shaker two or three times that he was stalling but he kept pulling up. Piloting is a human skill and too many humans, quite frankly, suck at it.
A lot of people seem to get 'mercy passed' as you describe in various professions where there can be critical incidents and a certain level of aptitude is required... I know for my job, at our academy there were a few people who were downright dangerous yet eventually passed... basic things such as inability to communicate coherently over a radio in a stressful situation or safely handle a firearm on a range, yet they get passed for compassionate reasons as they've just spent months training at an academy. All well and good until it all hits the fan
I was a flight operations manager and check pilot in Canada. We were not allowed to share information about pilots to other companies due to privacy regulations. We devised code words to warn other airlines about bad pilots if they inquired about our experience. Still likely breaking privacy laws but hopefully kept people alive.
I’ve overheard a couple phone conversations (one half anyway) of inquires about whoever was applying for a job somewhere. They were told that Jon Doe was always late, no show, alcoholic, complete moron, good at x type work but not x, or is lying about experience. Myself and another employee told our boss don’t hire x full time and send him out by himself because he wasn’t ready for it. He did it anyway. Later x was fired because he couldn’t do his job correctly and had caused all kinds of maintenance issues on the aircraft. Luckily no one was killed, but you cannot expect someone to be successful if you set them up for failure. Telling the boss “I told you so” isn’t popular either.
Maybe, just maybe, privacy should take a backseat when it comes to choosing a pilot that's not going to crash a plane and kill a bunch of people potentially. Same deal with the Germanwings pilot who committed suicide and took over 100 people down with him. Because of health information privacy restrictions, his doctor couldn't tell the airline that he was not fit to fly. Even during the investigation, they withheld any relevant information from authorities, again due to the same privacy restrictions, even though the pilot and over 100 people were already dead. I do think privacy is essential in most cases, but I think these scenarios highlight the fact that it can be problematic and lead to fatalities.
Or at least trust your artificial horizon over all other instruments in IFR. Too many incidents have happened where the pilots assumed that the failure of one of their instruments meant _all of them_ failed.
Even if the plane was stalling, the way to recover is not to shove the nose down 50 degrees. The FO was so lucky he had such a nice cargo job, he failed way too many check rides and couldn’t handle any stressful situation.
I'm not a pilot, but long time interested in the aviation industry. My understanding, is that for a stable aircraft design, i.e. a passenger plane, it will recover from a stall by itself, (if you let go of the yoke). Some will say that this plane was too low to the ground to do that, but pushing full nose down is hardly likely to have improved the situation from the plane righting itself.
@@axelBr1 I can't understand the overreaction even if the plane did stall. The first thing I'd do (and I'm not a pilot, I'm just flexing my intuition) would be to doublecheck that stalling sensation in the first place. With just a little training, all you need to do is to glance the airspeed indicator, that would be my first check from what I understand, then look at the artificial horizon to recalibrate my senses. In just two seconds I would, and I'm a complete noob and not even a car driver (though I know how to drive), regain confidence and full control over my flight profile. So the question is who was this guy and how the hell he got into that cockpit? Is the industry letting just about anyone? That's not nice. I get so angry sometimes. This incapacity to understand what's going on with the plane reminded me of that Russian major flying a transcontinental line, and letting his son inadvertently partially deactivate the cruising autopilot while everybody was asleep. It's a violation of basic rules, sure, but what killed me was that this guy, admittedly a top pilot with decades of flight experience, had all the time in the world, yet didn't possess any intuition regarding the electronic systems. The autopilot had three independent parts, one of which got deactivated by accident, and the full-auto was the main mode of flight at the moment. Once the plane began to roll slightly, my first reaction would be to check the system -- and clearly observe that one of the three indicators in a row was turned off, after which I would simply turn off the system in its entirety and back on -- sadly this procedure would save all 300 passengers from a horrible death of which they were perfectly aware, tumbled upside down until the very last moment the plane smashed into the mountain in the midst of nowhere in a pitch black night. Though, to be frank, whoever retrofitted such a plane with this system should've made it clear with a sound indicator that the autopilot was partially disengaged. Who needs such a silent feature anyway? Manual roll override should either disengage the full-auto completely, or at least demand some sort of attention to cater to the old-school pilots who seemingly don't really understand the basic operating logic behind any such hardware. Well at least this clown didn't kill 300 people...
@@milanstevic8424 UA-cam has been recommending a lot of similar videos, the common theme of these accidents is that people act instinctively but that is not correct. One video was about stalls during go arounds and how the pilot, if surprised by needing to go around, yanks back on the yoke, (to make the plane go up), when in fact increasing power (and then speed) is what makes the plane go up. And a lot of crashes are due to the pilot focussing on a small detail rather than flying the plane. (I saw 1 video about a pilot who was trying to re-engage the auto pilot when the plane was at a 55 degree bank angle.) And then there is the Air France flight that crashed off Brazil and apparently as the plane was descending towards the sea the co-pilot was saying that the plane was stalling and yanking back on the control column.
@@milanstevic8424 Yeah, instinctual reactions are often wrong. There is in fact, some element of training to get you to NOT spontaneously react to things, take some time to truly assess what's happening, and then make a calmer, better judgement. I do in fact both drive a car and have flown a plane and I can tell you that it's not that similar. In a car, fast reactions can save you, because the difference between safety and colliding with something can be less than a second, especially if you're careless with procedures like safe following distances and the like (which many drivers are because they fail to see how dangerous what they're doing is) In a plane, it's very rare that you'll be in a situation where reacting in a split second will matter, and if your instincts are wrong, you'll do more harm than good anyway. Plus, since you seem to lack practical experience with things, you underestimate the panic reaction to strange sensations, especially when you know in the back of your mind that a mistake could get you killed. My first experience with stall training for instance... Regular stalls aren't that bad. But we soon followed that up with an accelerated stall with wing drop. This is when only one wing loses lift. In the span of about a second the aircraft suddenly rolled 90 degrees to the left, and feeling the sudden lurch, the sensation of falling, and the sudden roll to the side was pretty distrurbing. The instructor demonstrated it, did the recovery, reminded me how the recovery worked... But even though I knew it was coming... When he did it a second time, where I was supposed to recover the plane, I panicked and did the recovery before he'd even finished stalling the aircraft. On the plus side, what I did in my panic was correct recovery procedure. On the downside, the panic reaction is unhelpful and potentially dangerous. And plus, because I pre-empted it, we had to do it a third time... Point is, don't underestimate your own reaction to something that if you screw it up badly enough can kill you. It's easy to say you'll just calmly notice and react appropriately. But what that tells me is you've never actually properly been in a life-or death scenario. OK, so the odds of me dying by screwing up stall recovery during pilot training with a competent instructor present to take over if it really goes wrong are low. But they aren't zero. There genuinely IS a risk of death here, and that DOES influence your reactions. It's easy to say you can do it right, but that's meaningless if you've never been confronted with it for real...
Somatogravic disorientation is real and the only way to really experience it is to get into real IMC, where there's only you and your instruments and no autopilot. I was surprised how quickly it set in during my first acutal IMC flight during instrument training. Went up on a 300 foot drizzling morning and immediately started veering off course once we hit the clouds. Got on the instruments and got back on course--stayed in it for about two hours and had to take a nap after I got done.
That's about how my first time flying single pilot IFR went! I was flying a Bonanza with tip tanks that give it a notoriously good roll rate. Maybe 1 minute into IMC, and I'm looking at the left wing for possible traces of icing. Back at the instruments, I had entered a 10 degree right handed bank. I corrected it, leveled off at my planned step climb altitude, and flew it another 850 miles to the destination; culminating in the most beautiful circle-to-land procedure of my life.
@@mikhailhunter5277 It was really not bad or difficult. It was just a little different than being under the hood, and took a few minutes of getting used to. I find IFR flying to be way easier than VFR flying. No airspace to worry about, not nearly as much traffic to worry about, defined procedures as opposed to vague techniques. Once it clicks, its so much easier than VFR!
We have the same problem in medicine. I’m an anesthesiologist and know which surgeons and anesthesiologists I would trust my family members with, and just as importantly, who to avoid. Thanks for another sobering episode.
Incompetence exists everywhere. If people knew the stories I have, both first and second hand about commercial aviation, many of them would never want to fly again. My cousin who's a nurse says the same about medicine. It's amazing we all fare as well as we do through this chaotic world.
@@jacobshaw808 very well said, unfortunately. The proportion of truly competent doctors/pilots/lawyers etc. is the same as the proportion of competent contractors/plumbers/barbers etc.... i.e. probably ~25-50%. A sobering thought, and a sad reflection of the rapidly falling standards for "high-skill" professions.
33 years of flying. 28 of them Airline Transport rated. 20 yrs at a major North American Airline. I have seen people in positions they do not possess the skills for. The reasons for this have been many: - Didn't want to fire them, felt bad for their family - Hired foreign nationals to keep the contract. - Hired women to meet anti- discrimination (* there are women pilots equal to or better than men just not in this case) - Believed the odds of a failure that would require high skill were "statistically improbable" - a quote from a DFO - The only pilots they could hire were the ones other airlines wouldn't. More often than not it was about money. The cost of replacing or retraining or the cost of hiring the proper experience level was the primary concern. Don't kid yourself, in today's world of reliable automation, many airlines view pilots as something akin to perfunctory systems monitors and want to pay them accordingly. So they will underpay and under-train under-qualified people then take no responsibility when s**t hits the fan.
I thought moving the requirement from 250 hours to over 1000 hours to qualify as a first officer was supposed to solve this type of accident. I think what it did was reduce the number of qualified pilots with demonstrated skill who otherwise might have been available for Atlas to hire.
Great video, thanks AVWeb and Paul. There's gold in the last 30 seconds, a simple assessment to solve the riddle of am I stalling or am I plunging downward nose first. Assuming instruments are working, in the case of spatial disorientation, following those very simple instructions can right the ship and keep it from going from bad to worse. Air France 447 had some very experienced pilots and flight engineers onboard, and yet they managed to pancake an otherwise perfectly functioning A330 because of partial instrument failure (pitot tube ice crystals) and lack of external references. That still bothers me to this day, that such a skilled group couldn't solve the problem and stalled all the way from cruise altitude. In any case, in a situation where you sense a stall at low altitude, like this accident case, reacting immediately is the right thing to do. But that reaction must include reading the actual instruments, not just the feels of the seat. RIP for the three crew, and thank god they hit an unpopulated area on impact.
I first experienced it in IFR training during a missed approach to minimums. I started the climb and turn, then bent over to get an approach chart. When my head came back up again it was there! The plane felt like it was in a 45 degree bank, when the attitude indicator said level. So to induce it reliably, don't just have the student hang their head, have them bend over and touch the floor then bend back up again, all while in a turn.
I experienced this illusion during my instrument training in actual IMC. Felt like I was pitched straight up. Instruments were rock solid, and all indicated I was straight and level and on course. It only lasted a few seconds to maybe a minute, but I can see how it could easily be misinterpreted. Trust your instruments.
Excellent job Paul! This is easily the best and most comprehensive summary I have seen regarding this incident. I appreciate your diligence in presenting the information with supporting video clips and graphics. Well done and thank you!
Paul Bertorelli opened a wasp's nest on this video. Having read most of the 340 replies, I see two separate issues being responded to. As a former check airman, I was deeply interested in the motivation and methodology of the cockpit actions and how we could learn from it. The other issue is diversity. I can't seem to get the issue focused on the "why and how", so we can learn the "stick and throttle" responses to avoid it in the future, as the issue has been captured by the "He shouldn't have been there" group. This may have to be split into two separate discussions to learn from each one. As of now it is a garbled mess. I believe once a crew is formed from whatever the source, that it is the captain's responsibility to make it work. PIC is just that, PILOT IN COMMAND. Underline COMMAND. That command starts upon introductory handshake and doesn't end until engine shutdown and out the jetway or air stairs. I believe this captain was a weak commander and wasn't watching the FO close enough. Crews know about each other. The FO had a history and bore watching. The responsibility of this captain's command was to be prepared for the FO's actions. The pre-start brief should have had the jump seater included in the brief. All the diversity chatter stops at the cockpit door and the crew fly as a crew from there. I still want to know why the captain or FO didn't pull the power back once the nose was down as that would have give them more time and physics to save the a/c. Can we talk about flying and leave the sociology for another discussion?
On Avweb, I wrote a blog about this. A couple of people posted on the impact of privacy and diversity laws on the hiring, firing and reference process. One of the posters was sued as a result of this. I didn't address the diversity issue in the video or the blog not because of PC considerations, but because doing so would require facts not in evidence. Having said this, I'm not naive enough to believe diversity considerations have no conceivable role here. Maybe so, maybe not. In the end, for whatever reasons, the captain performed poorly with a first officer who was impulsive and minimally qualified. And in case you're not aware of it, the family of the deceased first officer sue Atlas and Amazon, claiming negligence for lack of training.
A/P and A/T were both engaged the whole way down. Even when pulled back, the A/T would still just command the thrust back to max as soon as the pilot lets go of the levers as it is trying to establish the 2,000 FPM climb in GA mode.
That is a training failure. One of the first events in a situation like this is to disengage the A/T and A/P . It is intuitive to controlling the a/c. Ask any pilot of these aircraft and look at the SOP's. The captain should have taken control and disengaged the A/T and A/P as his first command upon pulling back on the yoke.
Thank you for issuing a correction to the original video. There are too many times incorrect information is posted and left up in perpetuity with nothing more than a footnote, or worse, nothing at all, to indicate any of the information may be incorrect.
The first officer should've NEVER been in that cockpit but sadly we are too politically-correct to divulge the flawed hiring practices that led to him being in that seat because of his race. The fact that many of you on this board have resorted to predictably calling people 'racist' for this perspective is actually making my point.
So blame the Capt. for not doing the "fully certified" FO's job while trying to do his own. Instructors at all levels have been killed by their students who rapidly put an aircraft into a condition that the instructor could not respond early enough to recover the students mistake. This FO wasn't a student! He was a certified commercial pilot! If the Capt.'s are going to be held "ultimately responsible" then they should have the right by law to pick a second in command they can trust.
I LOVE Paul’s question, “How did it get this far?”. I can tell you from experience how. If you’re a woman or a minority an airline will do ANYTHING to get you through training and onto the line. They are terrified of being sued by a woman or minority for discrimination. I’ve personally witnessed this at Mesa airlines while working in the training department. There was a female pilot upgrading to captain in the ERJ that had no business being a pilot PERIOD. She was pushed through training and later CRASHED an ERJ in Roanoke VA. She landed the airplane in a full stall and hit the tail before the gear and tore a hole in the airplane. Then she went to the hotel and neither she nor her female first officer, who was also a flaming idiot reported the damage to the aircraft. The captain was fired but her equally untrustworthy first officer kept her job. She’s out there to this day flying people around. That’s how it gets this far Paul. Political correctness and spineless people get other people killed. I’ve flown the line with numerous female pilots. Some were great pilots. Others had zero business driving a car much less flying. I flew with a female first officer in the Beech 1900D that nearly crashed the airplane landing in Philadelphia on a clear day with calm winds. I discussed her poor airmanship with a check airman and the chief pilot and they refused to do anything about it. I was paired with her for an entire bid period and I wouldn’t let her fly the plane. She was barely able to operate the radios. I was basically single pilot for a month in the northeast winter with no autopilot and an incompetent FO. And this woman had an ATP and was at her third airline. It is what it is. I’m out of the flying business now and if I need to go anywhere I drive. People would shit if they knew what was going on in cockpits.
CRJ: Check this out. 15 years ago I was employed as a DC-10 captain (I'm retired now, thank God). I had a grossly incompetent 1st officer on a cargo flight from Dubai to Ostend, Belgium. This person had an extremely poor training history & it was a well known fact that she was very weak. 30 minutes out of OST she started her approach briefing for Brussels, not Ostend. It's worth noting that this was in her 3rd year of employment, so it's not like she just got off of IOE. I had to call "BS" on her twice before she realized that she was briefing the wrong approach at the wrong airport. She had to audacity to try & blame this on the company for not properly organizing their approach plates (WTF!?). I brought this up with the DO & he basically blew it off. No way in hell was this girl going to be retrained or terminated & it was common knowledge that if a captain was paired with her he was going to be single pilot the entire bid period. She failed captain upgrade twice & eventually moved on.
I tell you why they're anxious to get more diversity in hiring. It's because people like you do everything they can to keep minorities out of the industry, including badmouthing them just because of who they are.
Looking at the training history, unfortunately you had a real life Jar Jar Binks in the cockpit, with tragic consequences. There needs to be a centralised training database / blockchain project to make training records visible and easy to see - preferably at international level via ICAO guidance. Unfortunately some people are just not skilled enough to competently fly a jet (I definitely consider myself one of them) and should not be let loose on a commercial aircraft.
@@james_chatman Yes it is, terrifying and sad. I don't believe either of those men intended that outcome, and of course the poor third soul that had no control of his fate at that moment.
@Homo Quantum Sapiens While I can't disagree with his incompetence and lack of aptitude, my main point of even responding the OPs stereotyping comment by referring to him as "Jar Jar" was to point out that his stupidity was not alone in the cockpit. Could the PIC have averted this, we'll never know. Maybe another case of too much complacency on top of the lack of aptitude.
@Homo Quantum Sapiens Yes, there are! Tons of them. Luckily there are very few of them on *US Carriers* as they are very diligent in ferreting out these types. Nothing can be 100% foolproof, and in some rare occasions, someone does slip through the cracks.However, if you go to places like Asia, the middle east, and other 3rd world places, you will find TONS of these types! The training, skills, aptitudes of these so called "pilots" in these places, is terrifyingly poor, and if you pay close attention, you will notice that most of these "accidents" or "crashes" occur in that part of the world! Lion Air, Ethiopian 737 Max .....and the list goes on and on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they will blame Boeing and so on. But anyone with a brain the size of a pea, can tell, after carefully scrutinizing those incidents, that, while Boeing was at fault as well, those flights did not have to end up crashing. They were certainly recoverable, if only the pilots were *_COMPETENT!!_* Has anyone asked the question, how come not A SINGLE 737 Max crashed in the United States, even though it had been operating for SIGNIFICANTLY longer there, and had carried millions more passengers?? Think!! This is exactly why I will never let myself or my family ever step foot on one of these airlines in these 3rd rate places (good example that comes to mind: Pakistan Airlines with its 260 some odd pilots with fake licenses). www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/06/26/30-of-pakistani-pilots-have-fake-licenses-infographic/#6ab1a5601674
"Flaps 1" 40 miles from field is my first clue someone is not comfortable with aircraft...and elevates my "get ready" level, and prompts me to ask "why configuring this far out?"(Unless you're being "slam-dunked" into a field due to a runway change)
When training for my PPL, my instructor would have me look down at my lap wearing the hood, do some steep turns, then put the plane in an unusual attitude. Then he would tell me to look up (at the instruments, not out the window) and recover the aircraft. The steep turns really help with inducing vertigo.
Trouble is that recovery from unusual attitudes during instrument training isn't the same as real life. Firstly, there isn't any stress, because you know you can't die, because you know you've got an instructor sitting next to you. (Yes I do know that instructors do kill people, but I've always had the feeling that *my* instructor wasn't about to kill *me*, and it's that feeling that counts.) Secondly, you know it's a game. For example, I heard no change to engine note and felt no acceleration in any direction. So I knew he must have put us into a spiral dive. So when I opened my eyes all I had to do was take half a second sussing out whether it was to the right or to the left. Or, the time when he had as going really quite fast, but with a high pitch angle - trying to fool me into reducing power because of the high speed, but I added power because of the rapidly *decreasing* speed, again after watching the dials for half a second.
Best coverage ever! The kind of analytics I admire in a report. Way to go! I’m a retired CP and Instructor from the seventies... this Atlas air disaster is why I am no longer confident in commercial travel. Have pilots today forgotten to Aviate first! Our problems as pilots needs to be checked and made known and revised constantly. In this case the plane would have probably had a better outcome on it’s own if both pilots would have left the cockpit entirely, letting the plane talk to ATC fully automated haha lol... maybe one day eh, long after I’m gone!😇
Good heavens: "..pushing a lot of buttons without thinking about what he was pushing..." sounds too much like Homer Simpson at the nuclear power plant. There is too much real life following satire these days. It's bad enough when it happens in politics, but Lord is it sad when real life following satire results in such tragedies.
People like this have always existed. You just get 20 minute long UA-cam videos about all the ways they fucked up these days. Not long ago the only way you would have heard about this is if you actually got a physical report and read through it yourself. Go back a bit further and no one would have even known what happened. Now that high quality cameras are cheap, planet-wide distribution is free, advertising on the videos is easy to access, and the market for niche things like this exists (again due to the global nature of the internet) there's now access and motivation to content like this. Which is great, because this video would have *never* in a million years have been ran on any television network, they would have just said it's too boring.
@@lost4468yt In the past you also had a lot less buttons that could overwhelm people. Its much easier to understand something physical, like a sailing ship, compared to the cockpit of an aircraft, with a million buttons. I feel like it does take a bit of a specific mindset to deal with all that shit; some people just arent equipped for that. Doesnt even mean those people arent qualified for other, important jobs where they take responsibility. The bizarre thing is that they actually put him into a cockpit with his history.
This is not just incompetence, it is terrifying stupidity. This guy decided to modern jet aircraft by the seat of his pants and completely ignore his instruments. I don’t usually think “I wouldn’t have made that mistake” during these flight accident reports, but seriously, I think many casual pilots would have not let this happen.
Lack of flying skills for the FO and above all, a personality unfit for this job - as tragically demonstrated by his actions leading to the accident. Flying is one of these occupations that don't suffer impulsivity and irrationality. The captain had very little time to recognise the extremely dynamic and shocking situation and I'm afraid very few of us might possibly have reacted in time. It's not fair in my opinion to count 20s of available time for him to intervene because he was also talking to ATC and extending the flaps. From the moment the situation clearly became worrying to the accident, things developed shockingly fast. The FO WAS AN ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN. That he was even considered for upgrade with the previous airline is beyond me.
Just, there's a wide range of aviation experience on this thread - not sure how much of these operations you're familiar with. But, 20s and 6000' is a lot of time to react. In fact, that Capt had over 40s to respond, yet if you believe the NTSB report you wouldn't realize that even when the other guy is talking on the radios they are still tracking along with every aspect of that aircraft's flight path - it's not like one has to turn away to make a radio call.
It you read the docket, they are both poor pilots with weak records. If C is passing than the FO is a D- pilot and the CA was barely hitting C-. Both had been retrained during their time at Atlas because they didnʻt make it through the first round of training in some portion. To be honest, I question putting people with such weak records together to crew but that sounds like some of these carriers might not fly if they were that demanding.
Kim, most company dispatchers are told by their Operations Department who the weak pilots are and are instructed not to schedule them together. This has been an issue since the 50's.
This is why I fear flying. The airline industry is incompetent. This is not the fault of the FO, this is 100% the fault of the people who allowed him to proceed through training when it was obvious he didnt have the IQ or nerve required.
This. For real. How did this dude with allegedly raging case of Dunning-Kruger KEEP a license? That is the actual issue this crash points at. Not HRʻs failings. Not piloting skills because literally avoidable by donʻt freak out and you wonʻt die, an appropriate personality for a pilot. Why do licenses work this way so that these failures arenʻt reported and shared even though they were supposed to be in some form already since the Colgan accident.
Atlas failed the pilot and FO by not conducting good enough testing. The NTSB presentation shows that the FO should not have been in that plane. Atlas should be taking a long hard look at their hiring/training/ and testing procedures after this. Blaming this accident on "human error" is quite a stretch considering how unqualified the FO was. Hindsight bias sure is a beautiful thing.
I cannot understand why the NTSB and Paul did not discuss the presence (or lack of) of the captain. Why the captain did not intervene and reduce power is a puzzle to me. Like the two 737 Max fatal accidents, I cannot understand why thrust was not reduced until impact. That is worth studying as an industry training problem. The PIC is responsible and seems to be left out in this discussion.
@@AVweb I apologize for not acknowledging this was covered. However I stand by my comment as to why the power was not reduced once the a/c was in a dive as the two 737 max a/c were, as well. This is energy management. After many years of PIC in integrated automated a/c, click, click (autopilot, auto throttle off) solved many issues until sorted out. Has current training, common sense changed that? Paul, that could be a deep dive article for you. I love you, man.
No surprise there, Brad. Many weak pilots are carried by their crew. When multiple weak crewmembers are are paired then the all the holes in the cheese line up and disaster occurs.
Somatogravic Illusions vs. possible instrument failures, sometimes so difficult to decide. If you are feeling dizzy go by the instruments. Both things occurring at the same time is highly unlikely. You are the broken thing! We've all been there. I do feel that observing a 30 degree plus nose down attitude would not warrant forcing the nose down further. (sic) Consistently practice hand flying. When in doubt, hit the AP disconnect and fly. Getting rid of the FD command bars is paramount as they can do as much to disorient as a failed instrument. The GA button is only useful in NORMAL situations. Maintain not only stabilized approaches but also stabilized cruise, climb and descent profiles. If you do, any anomalies will be VERY apparent when you disconnect the AP. I had to bust a candidate for a cargo company I was with. He was a very congenial person and quite likable. However, he was elderly, low time and made way to many innocent mistakes that could be deadly. I caught a very large load of grief from my higher ups (Do you realize how much $ we have invested here?). The candidate left us but contacted me afterwards to thank me for MY judgement and to say that I was right. He admitted he'd had the same problem with several other companies and it was time to give it up.
I've never flown in, much less piloted a plane. But some of these situations seem so black & white to me. You have TONS of info staring at you available to help you keep the plane airborne. Wings level? Check! Attitude "level"? Check! Speed appropriate? Check! Altitude appropriate? Check! Seems to me those 4 thing should let you keep the aircraft airborne till it runs out of fuel. All the other stuff is for taking off or landing. I know there are things like flaps & pedals that help make it easier to fly. But once you've reached an altitude that allows AP to take over, as long as you know "where you are", then keeping an eye on the above 4 things SHOULD keep you from an unexpected landing. YMMV. Don't take any wooden nickels. Dry between your toes. Etc, Etc...
Somatogravic illusion is deadly, we had several instances in the last few years. However, even instrument failures can lead to a similar inflight upset. For example West Air Sweden 294 needed just 80 seconds from FL330 to ground impact due to a very hasty recovery attempt based on attitude data presented by a malfunctioning IRS on the captains PFD.
True, but the incidents stemming from the former are vastly more common than from the latter, which is why pilots are told to rely on their instruments.
@@h8GW Well that and even with failure of an attitude indicator on a PFD, if they're scanning, a pilot should notice they're diving from increasing airspeed, decreasing altitude, a negative reading VSI, possibly wind noise, engine, etc. Keeping the backup AH in their scan would also be an instant tip-off. I've had an AH fail on me IRL, (steam gauge though), and you can still fly a plane in IMC with compass, airspeed, altimeter and turn coordinator. It sucks, and 2/10 would not recommend, but for these professionals it doesn't feel like "one instrument doesn't work" is a valid excuse for controlled flight into terrrain.
I'm no pilot but I would think a quick glance at your airspeed showing you're going way way over your stall speed would be enough to make you pull out of your dive.
One more ATP that can’t fly an airplane. Go figure. Pitch plus power equals performance. And hey, guess what...it’s never good when the attitude indicator is all green with no more blue side to keep up, and the altimeter is unwinding like an elevator in the Empire State Building with broken cables.
The FAA should be abolished and the NTSB should be put in charge of setting regulations. The FAA's mandate to promote aviation and promote safety are in direct conflict with each other.
I think that a good idea would not be this merit and so called "experience" based stuff, but pilot selection based on things like quotas, gender, sexual preferences and skin colour. That's happening in companies all over the place with _excellent_ results. Also in policing and the military. I think universities have picked up on the theme as well. The flight industry should really look into this new way of hiring to ensure everyone gets a fair go.
As a CFI my dad had one student who had been working on his pilot's license for an unusually long time. My dad was this guy's 4th IP. The student was a lot like this guy, taking impulsive, inappropriate actions. My dad tried to break this habit but in the end told the guy he was no longer going to be teaching him, and he strongly suggested he quit taking lessons. Another student he was teaching accidently performed a snap roll rather than a side slip as he intended. The student was startled and let the controls go half way through the snap roll. Now they were inverted at low speed and very close to the ground. My dad was able to recover but it was a very close call, The tail of the plane was green with grass stains and wheat was tangled in the landing gear. My dad continued teaching this guy after the near crash. I can't imagine how bad the student he refused to teach was.
@tie oneon My dad says there were 3 types of student pilot. The ones who seemed to get it easily. They had an almost intuitive sense of how to make the plane do what they want. There is the student who doesn't have any natural ability but with enough work they can become good pilots. Then there are the students who, no matter how much they practice or how hard they work, they simply lack the ability to control the airplane safely. The first kind are pretty rare, as are the 3rd, the middle is by far the most common/ And intelligence seems to have nothing to do with it. You can have someone who is dumb as a post, but he is in the first group. Another guy might have 3 PhD's and is a leading expert in some scientific field, but he is in the 3rd group. It would be heart breaking to have the desire, but not the ability. I wonder how many have the ability but lack the desire?
How in the world was this FO even a FO??? How was he even allowed any where near the cockpit of any aircraft to begin with given his training and in flight history?!? Makes you wonder how many others have faked they're way into an airplane FO seat. Was only tiny fragments of that plane left scattered all over the mud, well he succeeded in the inevitable.
Atlas is known for having some of the most extensive 76 training in the industry and many have been booted from training for far less. What wasn't mentioned in this report was how the FO threatened to sue for discrimination if he was let go. Many times.
@@postulify Please advise your source for this. Since you and several others want to lean on a racist explanation, I hope you can factually back this up.
@@qwaszx2 I do work in a corporate environment and have for the last 20+ years. I am also a manager with direct reports and the irony to your racist statement is that a Hispanic woman on my team is the strongest member of my team. I have also worked at a business for ten years prior to that, that did not hire a single non-white person despite receiving applications from numerous people of color. What's funny to me about your argument, if you want to call it that as it hardly is, is that there would never have been affirmative action, if people like you weren't actively avoiding hiring minorities in the first place. You claim you want the right person for the job, but historically you wanted the white person for the job, regardless of who was better qualified.
@@qwaszx2 And I'll ask the same of you as I did to OP. Where is your proof he was a diversity hire? If you know anything about the rigors of becoming an ATP, you would know that this is highly unlikely and it's based on your experience, qualifications and licensing. Was he a great pilot, clearly not given his history and circumstances, but one could easily say the same regarding the PIC as he was ultimately responsible for the FOs actions.
As a huge aviation fan, I am happy YT suggested a video that made me discovered your channel today. I've watched a couple of your latest video, and I love your content. No nonsense reporting, and good insights, just like blancolirio. Today is a good day. :)
Great video. Found something new this time though. As a pilot, I had previously watched all the footage from the investigation report, and this was a sad refresher. However, this time I googled the 1st officer's name and found that he is black. That fact puts the repeatedly ignored failed reviews at the chain of employers in a new light: perhaps the 1st officer was allowed to keep flying because of fear of HR departments, racial quotas, and public criticism. To be fair, I did a quick search for that theory online and found nothing, so maybe hiring practices at airlines are not like that yet. I do however know that several other industries have taken "social justice" to heart and have in effect aimed solidly at the effect of not having the most qualified employees. Perhaps, just perhaps, that was the attitude that allowed this pilot to continue on an ill-suited career. I will feel comfortable as a passenger no matter who the pilot is or what he/she looks like, as long he got there by demonstrating appropriate skill.
Look at the instrument panel at all times and the artificial horizon,do not accelerate when within a cloud bank or decelerate to avoid somatogravic illusions
I went to find a picture of the FO and understand exactly why he kept getting hired - he is a black man and airlines want diversity, it's a strength or something - so an obviously unqualified pilot was allowed to fly and get socially promoted, like this was a college admission test. People are dead because a man that everyone knew was unqualified based on his skill was hired by six different airlines. I get you want to avoid controversy in your video, but the NTSB is also ignoring the obvious (based on the clips). They are wondering how this guy slipped through the cracks. The obvious answer, because he's diverse and companies want more diverse people. And now people died. Before seeing this excellent video I didn't care what color my pilot was. Now, if I see a black pilot, I can't be sure he's qualified to fly. Hey, what's a few lives, right? We can't be systemicologically raycist. This is a sickness. We have to be judged as individuals or civilization can't function.
@@chrisr4318 your comment contains a logical fallacy - the guy wasn't qualified, documented, for one thing. Where's this alleged pilot shortage? Hiring an incompetent doesn't help you if you're short a pilot, you're still short a pilot and now you're endangering lives and $$. No, it's crystal clear what's going on.
I've had somatogravic effect and the leans in hard single pilot IFR, though in a Cessna 182 not in an airliner. Those incidents have been uncomfortable but as someone said in an earlier comment, concentrating on the instruments and briefing myself that these sensations could occur ahead of time helps. I always brief on these possibilities. I also brief my reaction to them. Continue the approach but if something goes wrong, follow the missed approach if needed and perhaps enter a hold and calm down before trying again. Believe me, I'm not trying to compare myself, with a measly PPL and instrument rating to an airline pilot. But it seems the same logic and process applies. On a side note, as a medical doctor I can tell you that if we are applying for a position in a hospital they crawl up our backsides with a colonoscope and every bit of our background is investigated. That has been the case for as long as I can remember and I've been doing this for nearly 30 years. I don't understand why that didn't happen with ATP rated pilots.
I believe all this discussion about diversity and race, etc. is irrelevant to the specific issue of why these pilots did not fly this a/c properly. The real question is why and how did the a/c get flown the way it did? That is a training issue, not Human Resources. Stay focused, troops.
Diversity quotas don't fly the a/c. Pilots do, regardless of whatever. Focus on the pilot training and pilot actions so we can learn from this. Any discussion on diversity doesn't aid us on flying the a/c . Focus.
This reads like another Boeing cover up. Someone please explain "Where's my speed,my speed?" + "Stall!" because this illusion doesn't make you think you have NO speed. instruments do that.
Big fan of your videos Paul! On the Blancolirio channel, Juan has a great video on how it’s not uncommon for a captain PM when reaching around the throttles to change the flap handle (flaps 1) in turbulence to hit the go around button with their watch. He’s seen it happen from the jump seat and the pilots did not notice it. Also he talks about that the pilots had so much opposite yoke in put that it physically separated the connected yokes. Could not the pilots feel the opposite force of the other pilot and say something?
Exactly !!! It's way more likely that the Capt hit the GA. Yes, the Capt would have, at least, felt the opposite force, and yes, he would have said something. No, the yokes won't separate - technically you'd get a split elevator if both pushed in the opposite direction.
@@WeTubeIn90210 Per Juan's report on the details of the 767 elevator system, you can sheer the left and right yoke interconnect for the elevator that gives you the split elevator but now they're disconnected and it took over 50lbs of force to do it. See ua-cam.com/video/PQLT9GLDYt0/v-deo.html about half way through.
@@jlorenz55 Concur and Agree. I'm looking at the Flight Control Systems now and the "Column Override" will shear causing the split elevator. I'll have to check out that link - thanks. You know, this further cements my opinion that the two pilots WERE NOT fighting over the controls. If you sit through the 4hr NTSB briefing, they make reference that the airplane showing a slight roll due to the Capt pulling the yoke in the opposite direction (one elevator up/one down). That's a completely false statement, IMHO. Finding that Column Override (sheared or intact) would've been a priority - they must have found it. The airplane rolling would've been backed-up with this evidence. I'd even open the possibility that the Capt is flying the airplane, at this point. This would explain why there wasn't a change of controls (I would’ve grabbed the controls as well) and it sheds light on his silence (he's busy fighting for his life). Of note: the data recorder only records the Captain's control collum not the FO's
The bottom line is the FO could not fly the plane in a stressful situation. It is the difference between having skills (being skilled), and being talented. He was not talented enough to fly the plane. It was too complex for him. When it showed up in the simulator, (multiple times), he should have been grounded (time to find a different job). Blame the FAA if you want. Each of these airlines failed just a badly as the FO did. The issues of skills and talent do not begin and end in the cockpit. It is a "difference maker" at every level in a company.
This accident showcases a failure of the system at all levels. And I’m not just talking about the piloting perspective. The aviation system in and of itself is extremely safe, and there are lots of safeguards and redundancy built in to ensure the bad pilots wash out and the good ones get to continue flying. However, the system is only effective and reliable if the “gatekeepers” to career advancement (i.e, instructors, examiners, and hiring/HR departments) and fellow pilots speak up when they are concerned about the proficiency of a co-worker. This first officer - Conrad Aska - simply put, had no business flying airplanes of any size for a living. Poor ADM and flying skills do not manifest themselves in large jets alone, but rather at all levels of flying. This was demonstrated by the FO’s poor training record. Multiple primary training and even Part 121 checkride failures. Many complaints from fellow pilots. By the time Aska got to Atlas and was flying 767s, everyone knew he did not have the “right stuff” - and yet he still was able to get the job and continue flying. Why is that? He was argumentative, impulsive, a “button masher,” and had multiple checkride failures. I think that at the end of the day, many of the gatekeepers are just afraid or hesitant to do their jobs properly because it’s an uncomfortable spot to be in. Nobody likes to end someone else’s career. It’s much easier to lie to yourself and write off a student’s poor performance as a bad day, or something they’ll be able to be trained up on. It feels bad to have to confront someone for their poor performance - especially someone as argumentative as Aska - but to do anything else, as we can see from this accident, is criminally unacceptable. Yes, Conrad Aska was definitely at fault for this accident. But an entire system built around training to proficiency and bandaging up the performance of bad pilots, while examiners hesitate to just call a spade a spade and toss out the candidates who just aren’t meant to be pilots, is just as culpable for these three lives ending prematurely. Repeated checkride failures and the company’s knowledge of his awful piloting reputation are worthless if nobody acts on them and fires him. There is a massive demand for pilots (or at least was, pre-COVID) that should return once the worldwide economy has recovered. The training system will be in full-on push pilots through to staff flights mode. Hopefully they will recognize some of the issues I listed above and fix them. If history is any indicator, I doubt anything will have changed though. Stay vigilant out there.
For people making racist claims about the FO - race has no bearing on piloting skill whatsoever. I have shared the flight deck with men and women of all races, and none of them is more of a natural pilot than the rest. This FO simply slipped through the cracks; a fault of the system that is not limited to any one race at all - believe me. RIP to all on board.
How did this guy’s personality alone not throw red flags everywhere? Someone that constantly crumbles under stress in scenarios that could kill them and everyone around them in a SIMULATOR and still assumes that role in real life has to be one egotistical narcissistic SOB. If you can’t handle yourself under pressure in a simulator then you damn sure aren’t going to be able to handle it when a real life situation smacks you in the face. Talk about a serious case of denial. His ego cost the lives of everyone else on that aircraft. So sad.
Yes, the first officer did cause the accident, however, the FAA had the responsibility to provide a check and balance system where the complete record of the pilot was available to the hiring airline. Ultimately, this accident was due to the FAA's inert attitude getting the system in place. Had this happened over Houston, and that plane didn't hit Galveston Bay, which is not a swamp, the results could have been a disaster. The FAA has repeatedly counted body bags because they failed to act, because it may interrupt air travel. When the FAA’s allowed Boeing to write the acceptance for the 737 max, it verified the agency is inept and inert, and should be overhauled with a change of mission where safety is first and always regardless of the cost or procedures.
Well, I’ve watched over 4hrs of NTSB briefings and I’ve read the NTSB report, attachments as well. Absolutely nowhere was race found as a Finding, Causal Factor, or Contributing Factor for obvious reasons - I mean we don’t conclude that the vast majority of accidents are due to caucasian men at the controls, right? So let’s keep that nonsense out of this. One can point that this FO didn’t have a great training history but that’s not why THEY pushed the nose over. In fact, if you read the report you’d see that both pilots were given remedial training due to unsatisfactory performance, but they were both trained to satisfaction and we have no reason not to assume they were capable. My post is intended for intelligent aviators to stop and think this through 1) The FO did not have his hand near the GA switch. I’ve never seen any FO do that and rest assure this question was asked if anyone noticed it on previous flights. If so, that bit of information would’ve been included. 2) The FO’s exclamation “where’s my speed bug” is a massive clue. 3) The Captain’s dead silence is a clue that he too is confused. The NTSB’s portrayal of the Captain seems as though he’s in the lavatory and completely at the will of the FO. NTSB should be ashamed of themselves
Great comment. I cannot understand why the NTSB and Paul did not discuss the presence (or lack of) of the captain. Why the captain did not intervene and reduce power is a puzzle to me. Like the two 737 Max fatal accidents, I cannot understand why thrust was not reduced until impact. That is worth studying as an industry training problem. The PIC is responsible and seems to be left out in this discussion.
@ihategoogle The Captain is always the PIC. He was not the PF. Please take your philosophical and psychological argument elsewhere. We are discussing the methods and motives of how the accident happened and how to train in the future to avoid it happening again.
@ihategoogle This tread is intended for “real aviators” discussion - clearly you don’t belong: 1) “Captain” literally means “PIC” 2) Nope, no checklist was heard on the recording 3) I’d say you’re doing just fine in exercising the race card
@@skipwood2059 I don't understand why you're shaming the NTSB.I mean their conclusions based on recorders and data and I guess parts of it also on the training history of the pilot.Granted I am not a pilot and haven't read or heard the whole report,but I would hope that the NTSB is neutral??
@@maanmohammad8459 After 64 years of licensed piloting and 40 professionally, I have been involved in and have read many NTSB investigations. I have no personal bias against the NTSB. They perform a great service to deliver data and facts associated with an accident, but the final report narrative is a compilation of the views of the numerous investigators. There is bias in every human as you have seen by watching this video and especially reading the comments. I believe there was bias in the narrative. Additionally, many NTSB reports are contested by various parties and the final report is changed. Let's keep our dialogue moving. Thank you for your thoughts.
16:45 the reason he was behind the controls is..... no one gives a poop.... because he isnt flying passengers . im sure he tried to get a job flying pax.... but failed the tests so he went to the next highest paying job..... flying boxes of goods from china for a greedy company.... . and if he failed that..... he would probably have gone to crop spraying..... . but ya..... standards are relaxed when you arnt in control of 100+ peoples lives same goes for locomotive engineers.... . fright train guys can be big screw ups but the AMTRAK guys are way higher quality workers . same for driving any idiot can get a drivers license..... we see idiots on the road every day . but when you start driving a buss..... or other transport jobs.... people piss test you.... ride along for a few weeks.... have real time data to see if your speeding....
heck..... look at semi truck drivers now days..... they are nothing but steering wheel holders. NO ONE! does a pre-trip inspection anymore. . if it starts and builds air..... even if it takes longer than it should (aka, air leak).... they dont care.... just put it in gear and take off. . and then when the leaking hose snaps.... and they have no brakes (as they didnt inspect their spring brakes either) and crash into a school buss. . ONLY THEN does the DOT give a crap
My friend was on the jumpseat. We were in the same newhire class at Mesa. Sean was a good guy. The FO that crashed it was known to be argumentative when people tried to give him advice. It's a small industry.
Sorry. He didnt deserve to die. The FAA and Atlas need to explain how he was flying when he would "push buttons" when under a stressful work load.
@@qwaszx2 it only relates to a low pay requirement. Airlines can find competent black pilots in the U.S. as well, if they want greater diversity in their workforce, but that comes at a higher price tag.
Everytime he skipped flying under the hood because he said Dats Racissst!
The Athletic Dept. ignorant statement,, I see a fool liberal here
@@qwaszx2 I don't think the hiring part is the problem.....the standards need to be the standards. The real question is whether airlines are firing people that need to be fired....regardless of race sex..ect. If airlines feel pressured to not fire someone because of "quotas"....that's on the airline allowing HR to override safety. A lot of people should be looking in the mirror asking if they did their jobs correctly over this accident. Sorry for the loss of three people....just glad it wasn't more. The "pilot shortage" I'd argue has allowed a dip in standards to put body's in seats....I guess Covid has stop that for awhile. Just sounds like nobody wanted to be the guy to get someone fired....which apparently he had been from other carriers.
Anyone else see the irony of the industry telling us after the Colgan crash to never pull back yoke in a stall (which is correct)........now a crash where they pushed the yoke? I know it's kind of different given it wasn't even close to stall..... .
NTSB doesn’t pull any punches here, as it should be.
The NTSB is one of the last places you'll see facts over feelings.
@@redcat9436 why do you say that?
Stefan van Loon He’s watched too many movies
@@alexanderzerka8477 He means feelings over facts.
@@737driver He meant feelings over facts.
46 degrees pitch down. I'm asking the other pilots here, has anyone ever seen another pilot "accidentally" pitch down 46 degrees, somatogravic illusion or not?
I don't think it was an accident. He followed a very unusual series of steps you would almost have to plan out. Suicide by airliner.
@@xxxxxxxxxxxx_xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx The evidence presented strongly points to either suicide or severely irrational psychotic behavior. But I don't think anyone else is willing to agree to that. They just want to say poor skills and poor screening of those poor skills, because it's more fun to say.
@@Bill_Woo Yeah I am quite puzzled at the absence of this discussion. Even the timing was perfect. Some might think closer to the ground would be better, because less reaction time from Captain. However Captain would be hyper-focused during landing and most liked would prevent deviations. This was perfect time - right when flaps would be expected, so aircraft pitching would not alert the Captain, and also when Captain was distracted on the radio.
and I'll add to this. Has anyone ever seen another pilot, student, private, or a pro accidentally negative G the airplane? We have all seen an accidental unloading, maybe to a little less than 1 g (like 7/8ths G or so), but to keep pushing into the negative G range by accident?
If you see that (apart from aerobatic flights), you're dead within seconds. But there are several recent similar cases with serious nose-down crashes after go-arounds.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flydubai_Flight_981
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan_Airlines_Flight_363
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armavia_Flight_967
In all these cases, the pilot flying became partically incapacitated by stress factors after the go-around. We sit here, looking at thsi horrible nose dive developing, however the PF did not have the same mental picture as us, possibly not scanning his instruments, or scanning, but unable to comprehend what they show. They all died without knowing what killed them, even if the AI is right in front of them.
I've been in complete IFR several times where I would swear that I was nose up 30 degrees about to stall. I never got nervous about it, I just noted the effect as fascinating, and stayed on my instruments like a hawk.
"on my instruments like a hawk" you said a mouthful there, good job
Yup, that weird feeling like going completely in a different direction as like completely sideways at 150 knots forward.
"You probably remember this from your instrument training." Me, who's never flown an airplane: Ah, yes, of course.
On youtube I am an expert in every subject
Ha, you could however have an interest in aviation and know what he's talking about regardless of official flying ability.
Try Flight Simulator 2020 and watch some tutorial videos, I've heard that counts :-P
Hahahaha yep
" Ah, yes, of _course_ (
If only there was some sort of visual aid to tell him what the plane's actual pitch was
Well said.
I guess you're being funny. He needed a visual aide like a revoked license.
@@edsupinski7039 Yeah ,i hope he's ironic cause the "some sort of visual aid to tell him what the plane's actual pitch was" is the big colorful instrument in front of FO's nose, the Attitude indicator with the artificial horizon, as we all know.
FFS! Exactly! I can still hear the advice "Trust your instruments!"
Does the cockpit window count?
Air speed good
Altitude good
Horizon indicator good
Jules Aska: we stalling
That was way funnier than it should have been.
Jules Aska: I'm MCAS
Looking forward to randomly stalling out at full speed in MFS2020.
Look at me. I’m the MCAS now.
@@deadeyeduncan5022 Stall has nothing to do with speed alone. It’s a matter of AoA.
FO should have never been in that Aircraft.
That may be true, but the question is, how do you prevent that person from being in that seat at that time? In this case, the system almost worked as intended right up until it didn't work at all.
@@qwaszx2 Again here you are expunging something you have no proof to back up. Just because he was black does not mean he was a diversity hire.
@@qwaszx2 Well clearly I must be, so please prove me wrong. Please tell me where amongst the 71 documents and 2279 pages of the NTSB docket that you claim to have read, I can find where it states the FO was a diversity hire?
Or in *_ANYTHING with wings,_* that flies, for that matter!
@@jeffreyjones7529 Racists have to be dickheads. They always have to cry that somebody else is doing better than themselves. I have seen that "diversity hire" BS on the NTSB video as well. The pilot's name was not even mentioned in this video so they are bouncing around the videos spouting their garbage that there cannot even be evidence for. Do companies have that as the reason a person is hired? If it is not stated in the company file, I don't know why it would be, they are just regurgitating garbage they believe. Perhaps the authors of those intentionally false statements are so incompetent themselves that is the excuse they use to attack people.
out of all the pilots that were laid off, they didnt choose this guy....
you can't do that. he is 'special'. Get it ???
@@dks13827 So, you're saying he had "the right stuff"...
You can't fire basketball-americans nowadays, no matter what the reason is. I had to say basketball-americans because this platform automatically censors any comment that includes the word describing a specific color. Here's a hint: it's not blue pink or green.
Academia and government trip over each other to hire people, just like him. Soon the airlines plan on the same.
Amazon was booming during Covid...don't think pilot's were being laid off. On the contrary, probably they were in desperate need of more of them. Maybe for that reason the Airline just took a chance on him, who knows ?
So the FO was basically a human MCAS.
lol
underated xD
yep he was
Imagine him piloting a 737 MAX. That thing would be a giant lawn dart.
you beat me to the joke, by a month
As an industry captain this makes me nauseous. We know when we can trust the guy/gal next to us or not. I welcome a little more scrutiny in the pilot selection process. Farming out selection is a bean counter fail that unfortunately has led to a fatalities.
ATP FLYING ACADEMY is sending them out by the truck load! Just wait!
@@avfan967 not true
"Weak piloting skills?" He didn't have any. I did have to avert my eyes. The stupidity was overwhelming. Shades of Air France 447. That idiot did the opposite but with same results.
That one still boils my blood, guy kept pulling up without thinking it through. The other one was Colgan flight 3407 where the guy ignored the stick shaker two or three times that he was stalling but he kept pulling up. Piloting is a human skill and too many humans, quite frankly, suck at it.
447 had iced up instrument sensors that were giving them bad data.
@@colin-nekritz Iced up instrument sensors on 447. Not an excuse but there was something. Unlike this one
Over 25 yrs in aviation and I flew with a lot of people like this. Unfortunately, many were mercy passed when they should have washed out.
A lot of people seem to get 'mercy passed' as you describe in various professions where there can be critical incidents and a certain level of aptitude is required... I know for my job, at our academy there were a few people who were downright dangerous yet eventually passed... basic things such as inability to communicate coherently over a radio in a stressful situation or safely handle a firearm on a range, yet they get passed for compassionate reasons as they've just spent months training at an academy.
All well and good until it all hits the fan
He was black. I see this happening on a regular basis.
I was a flight operations manager and check pilot in Canada. We were not allowed to share information about pilots to other companies due to privacy regulations. We devised code words to warn other airlines about bad pilots if they inquired about our experience. Still likely breaking privacy laws but hopefully kept people alive.
I’ve overheard a couple phone conversations (one half anyway) of inquires about whoever was applying for a job somewhere.
They were told that Jon Doe was always late, no show, alcoholic, complete moron, good at x type work but not x, or is lying about experience.
Myself and another employee told our boss don’t hire x full time and send him out by himself because he wasn’t ready for it.
He did it anyway.
Later x was fired because he couldn’t do his job correctly and had caused all kinds of maintenance issues on the aircraft. Luckily no one was killed, but you cannot expect someone to be successful if you set them up for failure.
Telling the boss “I told you so” isn’t popular either.
You canʻt do in the states (at least some) either and thatʻs part of the issue here.
Maybe, just maybe, privacy should take a backseat when it comes to choosing a pilot that's not going to crash a plane and kill a bunch of people potentially. Same deal with the Germanwings pilot who committed suicide and took over 100 people down with him. Because of health information privacy restrictions, his doctor couldn't tell the airline that he was not fit to fly. Even during the investigation, they withheld any relevant information from authorities, again due to the same privacy restrictions, even though the pilot and over 100 people were already dead. I do think privacy is essential in most cases, but I think these scenarios highlight the fact that it can be problematic and lead to fatalities.
In the area of USA where I live, the code phrase is to ask “Would person X be eligible for rehire?” “No, he would not be eligible for rehire.”
OS 77 Code word Whiskey Delta?
Im not even a pilot but I always remember something my pilot friend told me
"Trust your instruments"
Or at least trust your artificial horizon over all other instruments in IFR. Too many incidents have happened where the pilots assumed that the failure of one of their instruments meant _all of them_ failed.
Peppy Hare!
Even if the plane was stalling, the way to recover is not to shove the nose down 50 degrees. The FO was so lucky he had such a nice cargo job, he failed way too many check rides and couldn’t handle any stressful situation.
Everyone is forgetting Atlas is not just a cargo airline.
I'm not a pilot, but long time interested in the aviation industry. My understanding, is that for a stable aircraft design, i.e. a passenger plane, it will recover from a stall by itself, (if you let go of the yoke). Some will say that this plane was too low to the ground to do that, but pushing full nose down is hardly likely to have improved the situation from the plane righting itself.
@@axelBr1 I can't understand the overreaction even if the plane did stall. The first thing I'd do (and I'm not a pilot, I'm just flexing my intuition) would be to doublecheck that stalling sensation in the first place. With just a little training, all you need to do is to glance the airspeed indicator, that would be my first check from what I understand, then look at the artificial horizon to recalibrate my senses. In just two seconds I would, and I'm a complete noob and not even a car driver (though I know how to drive), regain confidence and full control over my flight profile. So the question is who was this guy and how the hell he got into that cockpit? Is the industry letting just about anyone? That's not nice.
I get so angry sometimes. This incapacity to understand what's going on with the plane reminded me of that Russian major flying a transcontinental line, and letting his son inadvertently partially deactivate the cruising autopilot while everybody was asleep. It's a violation of basic rules, sure, but what killed me was that this guy, admittedly a top pilot with decades of flight experience, had all the time in the world, yet didn't possess any intuition regarding the electronic systems. The autopilot had three independent parts, one of which got deactivated by accident, and the full-auto was the main mode of flight at the moment. Once the plane began to roll slightly, my first reaction would be to check the system -- and clearly observe that one of the three indicators in a row was turned off, after which I would simply turn off the system in its entirety and back on -- sadly this procedure would save all 300 passengers from a horrible death of which they were perfectly aware, tumbled upside down until the very last moment the plane smashed into the mountain in the midst of nowhere in a pitch black night. Though, to be frank, whoever retrofitted such a plane with this system should've made it clear with a sound indicator that the autopilot was partially disengaged. Who needs such a silent feature anyway? Manual roll override should either disengage the full-auto completely, or at least demand some sort of attention to cater to the old-school pilots who seemingly don't really understand the basic operating logic behind any such hardware.
Well at least this clown didn't kill 300 people...
@@milanstevic8424 UA-cam has been recommending a lot of similar videos, the common theme of these accidents is that people act instinctively but that is not correct. One video was about stalls during go arounds and how the pilot, if surprised by needing to go around, yanks back on the yoke, (to make the plane go up), when in fact increasing power (and then speed) is what makes the plane go up. And a lot of crashes are due to the pilot focussing on a small detail rather than flying the plane. (I saw 1 video about a pilot who was trying to re-engage the auto pilot when the plane was at a 55 degree bank angle.) And then there is the Air France flight that crashed off Brazil and apparently as the plane was descending towards the sea the co-pilot was saying that the plane was stalling and yanking back on the control column.
@@milanstevic8424 Yeah, instinctual reactions are often wrong.
There is in fact, some element of training to get you to NOT spontaneously react to things, take some time to truly assess what's happening, and then make a calmer, better judgement.
I do in fact both drive a car and have flown a plane and I can tell you that it's not that similar.
In a car, fast reactions can save you, because the difference between safety and colliding with something can be less than a second, especially if you're careless with procedures like safe following distances and the like (which many drivers are because they fail to see how dangerous what they're doing is)
In a plane, it's very rare that you'll be in a situation where reacting in a split second will matter, and if your instincts are wrong, you'll do more harm than good anyway.
Plus, since you seem to lack practical experience with things, you underestimate the panic reaction to strange sensations, especially when you know in the back of your mind that a mistake could get you killed.
My first experience with stall training for instance...
Regular stalls aren't that bad.
But we soon followed that up with an accelerated stall with wing drop.
This is when only one wing loses lift.
In the span of about a second the aircraft suddenly rolled 90 degrees to the left, and feeling the sudden lurch, the sensation of falling, and the sudden roll to the side was pretty distrurbing.
The instructor demonstrated it, did the recovery, reminded me how the recovery worked...
But even though I knew it was coming... When he did it a second time, where I was supposed to recover the plane, I panicked and did the recovery before he'd even finished stalling the aircraft.
On the plus side, what I did in my panic was correct recovery procedure.
On the downside, the panic reaction is unhelpful and potentially dangerous.
And plus, because I pre-empted it, we had to do it a third time...
Point is, don't underestimate your own reaction to something that if you screw it up badly enough can kill you.
It's easy to say you'll just calmly notice and react appropriately.
But what that tells me is you've never actually properly been in a life-or death scenario.
OK, so the odds of me dying by screwing up stall recovery during pilot training with a competent instructor present to take over if it really goes wrong are low.
But they aren't zero.
There genuinely IS a risk of death here, and that DOES influence your reactions.
It's easy to say you can do it right, but that's meaningless if you've never been confronted with it for real...
Somatogravic disorientation is real and the only way to really experience it is to get into real IMC, where there's only you and your instruments and no autopilot. I was surprised how quickly it set in during my first acutal IMC flight during instrument training. Went up on a 300 foot drizzling morning and immediately started veering off course once we hit the clouds. Got on the instruments and got back on course--stayed in it for about two hours and had to take a nap after I got done.
Wow. I'm stressed just reading your account. I believe you about needing a nap afterwards!
That's about how my first time flying single pilot IFR went! I was flying a Bonanza with tip tanks that give it a notoriously good roll rate.
Maybe 1 minute into IMC, and I'm looking at the left wing for possible traces of icing. Back at the instruments, I had entered a 10 degree right handed bank.
I corrected it, leveled off at my planned step climb altitude, and flew it another 850 miles to the destination; culminating in the most beautiful circle-to-land procedure of my life.
@@noonedude101 you know I'm a VFR student pilot, I want to go to IFR, but all of sudden being VFR doesn't sound too bad.
@@mikhailhunter5277 It was really not bad or difficult. It was just a little different than being under the hood, and took a few minutes of getting used to.
I find IFR flying to be way easier than VFR flying. No airspace to worry about, not nearly as much traffic to worry about, defined procedures as opposed to vague techniques. Once it clicks, its so much easier than VFR!
It’s what killed JFK Jr, John Denver, Kobe Bryant, etc. etc. Pilots who never learned IFR until it was too late. Good thing you did.
We have the same problem in medicine. I’m an anesthesiologist and know which surgeons and anesthesiologists I would trust my family members with, and just as importantly, who to avoid.
Thanks for another sobering episode.
Incompetence exists everywhere. If people knew the stories I have, both first and second hand about commercial aviation, many of them would never want to fly again. My cousin who's a nurse says the same about medicine. It's amazing we all fare as well as we do through this chaotic world.
@@jacobshaw808 very well said, unfortunately. The proportion of truly competent doctors/pilots/lawyers etc. is the same as the proportion of competent contractors/plumbers/barbers etc.... i.e. probably ~25-50%. A sobering thought, and a sad reflection of the rapidly falling standards for "high-skill" professions.
Bragger 🙄🙄
IFR qualified FO doesn’t know how to use instruments 🤔
33 years of flying. 28 of them Airline Transport rated. 20 yrs at a major North American Airline.
I have seen people in positions they do not possess the skills for.
The reasons for this have been many:
- Didn't want to fire them, felt bad for their family
- Hired foreign nationals to keep the contract.
- Hired women to meet anti- discrimination (* there are women pilots equal to or better than men just not in this case)
- Believed the odds of a failure that would require high skill were "statistically improbable" - a quote from a DFO
- The only pilots they could hire were the ones other airlines wouldn't.
More often than not it was about money. The cost of replacing or retraining or the cost of hiring the proper experience level was the primary concern.
Don't kid yourself, in today's world of reliable automation, many airlines view pilots as something akin to perfunctory systems monitors and want to pay them accordingly. So they will underpay and under-train under-qualified people then take no responsibility when s**t hits the fan.
You got that right.
gotta respect the flawless logic of "I dont know what to do, but if I press enough buttons it will work out"
I thought moving the requirement from 250 hours to over 1000 hours to qualify as a first officer was supposed to solve this type of accident. I think what it did was reduce the number of qualified pilots with demonstrated skill who otherwise might have been available for Atlas to hire.
Great video, thanks AVWeb and Paul. There's gold in the last 30 seconds, a simple assessment to solve the riddle of am I stalling or am I plunging downward nose first. Assuming instruments are working, in the case of spatial disorientation, following those very simple instructions can right the ship and keep it from going from bad to worse. Air France 447 had some very experienced pilots and flight engineers onboard, and yet they managed to pancake an otherwise perfectly functioning A330 because of partial instrument failure (pitot tube ice crystals) and lack of external references. That still bothers me to this day, that such a skilled group couldn't solve the problem and stalled all the way from cruise altitude. In any case, in a situation where you sense a stall at low altitude, like this accident case, reacting immediately is the right thing to do. But that reaction must include reading the actual instruments, not just the feels of the seat. RIP for the three crew, and thank god they hit an unpopulated area on impact.
I first experienced it in IFR training during a missed approach to minimums. I started the climb and turn, then bent over to get an approach chart. When my head came back up again it was there! The plane felt like it was in a 45 degree bank, when the attitude indicator said level. So to induce it reliably, don't just have the student hang their head, have them bend over and touch the floor then bend back up again, all while in a turn.
I experienced this illusion during my instrument training in actual IMC. Felt like I was pitched straight up. Instruments were rock solid, and all indicated I was straight and level and on course. It only lasted a few seconds to maybe a minute, but I can see how it could easily be misinterpreted. Trust your instruments.
Excellent job Paul! This is easily the best and most comprehensive summary I have seen regarding this incident. I appreciate your diligence in presenting the information with supporting video clips and graphics. Well done and thank you!
Check out blancolirio
Paul Bertorelli opened a wasp's nest on this video. Having read most of the 340 replies, I see two separate issues being responded to. As a former check airman, I was deeply interested in the motivation and methodology of the cockpit actions and how we could learn from it. The other issue is diversity. I can't seem to get the issue focused on the "why and how", so we can learn the "stick and throttle" responses to avoid it in the future, as the issue has been captured by the "He shouldn't have been there" group. This may have to be split into two separate discussions to learn from each one. As of now it is a garbled mess. I believe once a crew is formed from whatever the source, that it is the captain's responsibility to make it work. PIC is just that, PILOT IN COMMAND. Underline COMMAND. That command starts upon introductory handshake and doesn't end until engine shutdown and out the jetway or air stairs. I believe this captain was a weak commander and wasn't watching the FO close enough. Crews know about each other. The FO had a history and bore watching. The responsibility of this captain's command was to be prepared for the FO's actions. The pre-start brief should have had the jump seater included in the brief. All the diversity chatter stops at the cockpit door and the crew fly as a crew from there. I still want to know why the captain or FO didn't pull the power back once the nose was down as that would have give them more time and physics to save the a/c. Can we talk about flying and leave the sociology for another discussion?
On Avweb, I wrote a blog about this. A couple of people posted on the impact of privacy and diversity laws on the hiring, firing and reference process. One of the posters was sued as a result of this. I didn't address the diversity issue in the video or the blog not because of PC considerations, but because doing so would require facts not in evidence. Having said this, I'm not naive enough to believe diversity considerations have no conceivable role here. Maybe so, maybe not. In the end, for whatever reasons, the captain performed poorly with a first officer who was impulsive and minimally qualified. And in case you're not aware of it, the family of the deceased first officer sue Atlas and Amazon, claiming negligence for lack of training.
A/P and A/T were both engaged the whole way down. Even when pulled back, the A/T would still just command the thrust back to max as soon as the pilot lets go of the levers as it is trying to establish the 2,000 FPM climb in GA mode.
That is a training failure. One of the first events in a situation like this is to disengage the A/T and A/P . It is intuitive to controlling the a/c. Ask any pilot of these aircraft and look at the SOP's. The captain should have taken control and disengaged the A/T and A/P as his first command upon pulling back on the yoke.
Skip Wood couldn’t agree more.
Love it.
Thank you for issuing a correction to the original video. There are too many times incorrect information is posted and left up in perpetuity with nothing more than a footnote, or worse, nothing at all, to indicate any of the information may be incorrect.
“My Airplane!!” “Your Airplane!!” I guess that’s something that should never be taken lightly. Sad.
"It could be a smoking crater in your future". I like this guy.
"There could be"
What's with you people using It / it's in place of there / there's? It's not interchangeable. It stops making sense.
@@Connection-Lost made sense to me
The first officer should've NEVER been in that cockpit but sadly we are too politically-correct to divulge the flawed hiring practices that led to him being in that seat because of his race. The fact that many of you on this board have resorted to predictably calling people 'racist' for this perspective is actually making my point.
Diversity hire, it sounds like. Or else, if not a diversity hire, a company whose hiring practices are beyond negligent.
So blame the Capt. for not doing the "fully certified" FO's job while trying to do his own. Instructors at all levels have been killed by their students who rapidly put an aircraft into a condition that the instructor could not respond early enough to recover the students mistake. This FO wasn't a student! He was a certified commercial pilot! If the Capt.'s are going to be held "ultimately responsible" then they should have the right by law to pick a second in command they can trust.
I LOVE Paul’s question, “How did it get this far?”. I can tell you from experience how. If you’re a woman or a minority an airline will do ANYTHING to get you through training and onto the line. They are terrified of being sued by a woman or minority for discrimination. I’ve personally witnessed this at Mesa airlines while working in the training department. There was a female pilot upgrading to captain in the ERJ that had no business being a pilot PERIOD. She was pushed through training and later CRASHED an ERJ in Roanoke VA. She landed the airplane in a full stall and hit the tail before the gear and tore a hole in the airplane. Then she went to the hotel and neither she nor her female first officer, who was also a flaming idiot reported the damage to the aircraft. The captain was fired but her equally untrustworthy first officer kept her job. She’s out there to this day flying people around. That’s how it gets this far Paul. Political correctness and spineless people get other people killed. I’ve flown the line with numerous female pilots. Some were great pilots. Others had zero business driving a car much less flying. I flew with a female first officer in the Beech 1900D that nearly crashed the airplane landing in Philadelphia on a clear day with calm winds. I discussed her poor airmanship with a check airman and the chief pilot and they refused to do anything about it. I was paired with her for an entire bid period and I wouldn’t let her fly the plane. She was barely able to operate the radios. I was basically single pilot for a month in the northeast winter with no autopilot and an incompetent FO. And this woman had an ATP and was at her third airline. It is what it is. I’m out of the flying business now and if I need to go anywhere I drive. People would shit if they knew what was going on in cockpits.
CRJ: Check this out. 15 years ago I was employed as a DC-10 captain (I'm retired now, thank God). I had a grossly incompetent 1st officer on a cargo flight from Dubai to Ostend, Belgium. This person had an extremely poor training history & it was a well known fact that she was very weak. 30 minutes out of OST she started her approach briefing for Brussels, not Ostend. It's worth noting that this was in her 3rd year of employment, so it's not like she just got off of IOE. I had to call "BS" on her twice before she realized that she was briefing the wrong approach at the wrong airport. She had to audacity to try & blame this on the company for not properly organizing their approach plates (WTF!?). I brought this up with the DO & he basically blew it off. No way in hell was this girl going to be retrained or terminated & it was common knowledge that if a captain was paired with her he was going to be single pilot the entire bid period. She failed captain upgrade twice & eventually moved on.
The famous "glass ceiling" :D
Was this FO a minority?
I tell you why they're anxious to get more diversity in hiring. It's because people like you do everything they can to keep minorities out of the industry, including badmouthing them just because of who they are.
@@ImpactWench diversity for the sake of diversity has no business in an industry where the lack of talent or merit translates directly to death toll.
Looking at the training history, unfortunately you had a real life Jar Jar Binks in the cockpit, with tragic consequences.
There needs to be a centralised training database / blockchain project to make training records visible and easy to see - preferably at international level via ICAO guidance.
Unfortunately some people are just not skilled enough to competently fly a jet (I definitely consider myself one of them) and should not be let loose on a commercial aircraft.
Be that as it may, your forgetting that Homer Simpson sitting next to him was the PIC, which means he's ultimately responsible for the flight.
@@jeffreyjones7529 Jar Jar and Homer in the cockpit: A perfectly terrifying metaphor in real life.
@@james_chatman Yes it is, terrifying and sad. I don't believe either of those men intended that outcome, and of course the poor third soul that had no control of his fate at that moment.
@Homo Quantum Sapiens While I can't disagree with his incompetence and lack of aptitude, my main point of even responding the OPs stereotyping comment by referring to him as "Jar Jar" was to point out that his stupidity was not alone in the cockpit. Could the PIC have averted this, we'll never know. Maybe another case of too much complacency on top of the lack of aptitude.
@Homo Quantum Sapiens Yes, there are! Tons of them. Luckily there are very few of them on *US Carriers* as they are very diligent in ferreting out these types. Nothing can be 100% foolproof, and in some rare occasions, someone does slip through the cracks.However, if you go to places like Asia, the middle east, and other 3rd world places, you will find TONS of these types!
The training, skills, aptitudes of these so called "pilots" in these places, is terrifyingly poor, and if you pay close attention, you will notice that most of these "accidents" or "crashes" occur in that part of the world! Lion Air, Ethiopian 737 Max .....and the list goes on and on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they will blame Boeing and so on.
But anyone with a brain the size of a pea, can tell, after carefully scrutinizing those incidents, that, while Boeing was at fault as well, those flights did not have to end up crashing. They were certainly recoverable, if only the pilots were *_COMPETENT!!_* Has anyone asked the question, how come not A SINGLE 737 Max crashed in the United States, even though it had been operating for SIGNIFICANTLY longer there, and had carried millions more passengers?? Think!!
This is exactly why I will never let myself or my family ever step foot on one of these airlines in these 3rd rate places (good example that comes to mind: Pakistan Airlines with its 260 some odd pilots with fake licenses).
www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/06/26/30-of-pakistani-pilots-have-fake-licenses-infographic/#6ab1a5601674
I’m a nurse, never a pilot but I don’t understand why he kept a license when he could kill someone by panicking.
"Flaps 1" 40 miles from field is my first clue someone is not comfortable with aircraft...and elevates my "get ready" level, and prompts me to ask "why configuring this far out?"(Unless you're being "slam-dunked" into a field due to a runway change)
When training for my PPL, my instructor would have me look down at my lap wearing the hood, do some steep turns, then put the plane in an unusual attitude. Then he would tell me to look up (at the instruments, not out the window) and recover the aircraft.
The steep turns really help with inducing vertigo.
Trouble is that recovery from unusual attitudes during instrument training isn't the same as real life.
Firstly, there isn't any stress, because you know you can't die, because you know you've got an instructor sitting next to you. (Yes I do know that instructors do kill people, but I've always had the feeling that *my* instructor wasn't about to kill *me*, and it's that feeling that counts.)
Secondly, you know it's a game. For example, I heard no change to engine note and felt no acceleration in any direction. So I knew he must have put us into a spiral dive. So when I opened my eyes all I had to do was take half a second sussing out whether it was to the right or to the left. Or, the time when he had as going really quite fast, but with a high pitch angle - trying to fool me into reducing power because of the high speed, but I added power because of the rapidly *decreasing* speed, again after watching the dials for half a second.
Best coverage ever! The kind of analytics I admire in a report. Way to go! I’m a retired CP and Instructor from the seventies... this Atlas air disaster is why I am no longer confident in commercial travel. Have pilots today forgotten to Aviate first! Our problems as pilots needs to be checked and made known and revised constantly. In this case the plane would have probably had a better outcome on it’s own if both pilots would have left the cockpit entirely, letting the plane talk to ATC fully automated haha lol... maybe one day eh, long after I’m gone!😇
Good heavens: "..pushing a lot of buttons without thinking about what he was pushing..." sounds too much like Homer Simpson at the nuclear power plant. There is too much real life following satire these days. It's bad enough when it happens in politics, but Lord is it sad when real life following satire results in such tragedies.
People like this have always existed. You just get 20 minute long UA-cam videos about all the ways they fucked up these days. Not long ago the only way you would have heard about this is if you actually got a physical report and read through it yourself. Go back a bit further and no one would have even known what happened. Now that high quality cameras are cheap, planet-wide distribution is free, advertising on the videos is easy to access, and the market for niche things like this exists (again due to the global nature of the internet) there's now access and motivation to content like this. Which is great, because this video would have *never* in a million years have been ran on any television network, they would have just said it's too boring.
the only difference is that homer simpson somehow pulls it off every time
@@woohooman-fl9vq Ha ha! There are a few Homers in the industry. Fortunately, very few.
@@lost4468yt In the past you also had a lot less buttons that could overwhelm people. Its much easier to understand something physical, like a sailing ship, compared to the cockpit of an aircraft, with a million buttons. I feel like it does take a bit of a specific mindset to deal with all that shit; some people just arent equipped for that.
Doesnt even mean those people arent qualified for other, important jobs where they take responsibility. The bizarre thing is that they actually put him into a cockpit with his history.
So, basically, the FO resorted to flying by the seat of his pants.
He was using something in that general area. Wasn't the seat of his pants and it certainly wasnt his brain.
"We're stalling! I going to not look at my instruments during IFR, and instead initiate a kinetic strike on the ground below!"
This is not just incompetence, it is terrifying stupidity. This guy decided to modern jet aircraft by the seat of his pants and completely ignore his instruments. I don’t usually think “I wouldn’t have made that mistake” during these flight accident reports, but seriously, I think many casual pilots would have not let this happen.
Thank you sir for another interesting video. I am not in aviation, but I find it fascinating.
Lack of flying skills for the FO and above all, a personality unfit for this job - as tragically demonstrated by his actions leading to the accident. Flying is one of these occupations that don't suffer impulsivity and irrationality.
The captain had very little time to recognise the extremely dynamic and shocking situation and I'm afraid very few of us might possibly have reacted in time. It's not fair in my opinion to count 20s of available time for him to intervene because he was also talking to ATC and extending the flaps. From the moment the situation clearly became worrying to the accident, things developed shockingly fast. The FO WAS AN ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN. That he was even considered for upgrade with the previous airline is beyond me.
Just, there's a wide range of aviation experience on this thread - not sure how much of these operations you're familiar with. But, 20s and 6000' is a lot of time to react. In fact, that Capt had over 40s to respond, yet if you believe the NTSB report you wouldn't realize that even when the other guy is talking on the radios they are still tracking along with every aspect of that aircraft's flight path - it's not like one has to turn away to make a radio call.
@ihategoogle We are trying to discuss flying the a/c and you still want to go into the HR department. Another time, please.
It you read the docket, they are both poor pilots with weak records. If C is passing than the FO is a D- pilot and the CA was barely hitting C-. Both had been retrained during their time at Atlas because they didnʻt make it through the first round of training in some portion. To be honest, I question putting people with such weak records together to crew but that sounds like some of these carriers might not fly if they were that demanding.
Kim, most company dispatchers are told by their Operations Department who the weak pilots are and are instructed not to schedule them together. This has been an issue since the 50's.
This is why I fear flying. The airline industry is incompetent. This is not the fault of the FO, this is 100% the fault of the people who allowed him to proceed through training when it was obvious he didnt have the IQ or nerve required.
This. For real. How did this dude with allegedly raging case of Dunning-Kruger KEEP a license? That is the actual issue this crash points at. Not HRʻs failings. Not piloting skills because literally avoidable by donʻt freak out and you wonʻt die, an appropriate personality for a pilot. Why do licenses work this way so that these failures arenʻt reported and shared even though they were supposed to be in some form already since the Colgan accident.
Airline flying is the SAFEST mode of transportation. No room for PC.
Atlas failed the pilot and FO by not conducting good enough testing. The NTSB presentation shows that the FO should not have been in that plane. Atlas should be taking a long hard look at their hiring/training/ and testing procedures after this. Blaming this accident on "human error" is quite a stretch considering how unqualified the FO was. Hindsight bias sure is a beautiful thing.
I cannot understand why the NTSB and Paul did not discuss the presence (or lack of) of the captain. Why the captain did not intervene and reduce power is a puzzle to me. Like the two 737 Max fatal accidents, I cannot understand why thrust was not reduced until impact. That is worth studying as an industry training problem. The PIC is responsible and seems to be left out in this discussion.
It is discussed at 9:45
@@AVweb I apologize for not acknowledging this was covered. However I stand by my comment as to why the power was not reduced once the a/c was in a dive as the two 737 max a/c were, as well. This is energy management. After many years of PIC in integrated automated a/c, click, click (autopilot, auto throttle off) solved many issues until sorted out. Has current training, common sense changed that? Paul, that could be a deep dive article for you. I love you, man.
Captain also didn't have a stellar training record
No surprise there, Brad. Many weak pilots are carried by their crew. When multiple weak crewmembers are are paired then the all the holes in the cheese line up and disaster occurs.
Somatogravic Illusions vs. possible instrument failures, sometimes so difficult to decide. If you are feeling dizzy go by the instruments. Both things occurring at the same time is highly unlikely. You are the broken thing! We've all been there.
I do feel that observing a 30 degree plus nose down attitude would not warrant forcing the nose down further. (sic)
Consistently practice hand flying. When in doubt, hit the AP disconnect and fly. Getting rid of the FD command bars is paramount as they can do as much to disorient as a failed instrument. The GA button is only useful in NORMAL situations. Maintain not only stabilized approaches but also stabilized cruise, climb and descent profiles. If you do, any anomalies will be VERY apparent when you disconnect the AP.
I had to bust a candidate for a cargo company I was with. He was a very congenial person and quite likable. However, he was elderly, low time and made way to many innocent mistakes that could be deadly. I caught a very large load of grief from my higher ups (Do you realize how much $ we have invested here?). The candidate left us but contacted me afterwards to thank me for MY judgement and to say that I was right. He admitted he'd had the same problem with several other companies and it was time to give it up.
They made excuses for his behavior... And we get to see the end result.
"...There could be a smoking crater in your future." How does Paul Bertorelli prevent icing conditions? By having absolutely no chill.
Please, people..>TRUST YOUR INSTRUMENTS.
I've never flown in, much less piloted a plane. But some of these situations seem so black & white to me. You have TONS of info staring at you available to help you keep the plane airborne. Wings level? Check! Attitude "level"? Check! Speed appropriate? Check! Altitude appropriate? Check! Seems to me those 4 thing should let you keep the aircraft airborne till it runs out of fuel. All the other stuff is for taking off or landing. I know there are things like flaps & pedals that help make it easier to fly. But once you've reached an altitude that allows AP to take over, as long as you know "where you are", then keeping an eye on the above 4 things SHOULD keep you from an unexpected landing. YMMV. Don't take any wooden nickels. Dry between your toes. Etc, Etc...
it's a little more complicated than that ... remember AirFrance that crashed in the south atlantic ...
jamc666
Also, remember procedures.
Their procedure said set power at 84% and 3-5° nose up to get the proper speed.
@@cmdmd ... as if virtual horizon never failed ...
jamc666
It is extremely rare. There are back ups. Plus, often, spatial disorientation is what kills often.
He was an affirmative action hire from the Carribean. There is the problem.
Somatogravic illusion is deadly, we had several instances in the last few years.
However, even instrument failures can lead to a similar inflight upset. For example West Air Sweden 294 needed just 80 seconds from FL330 to ground impact due to a very hasty recovery attempt based on attitude data presented by a malfunctioning IRS on the captains PFD.
True, but the incidents stemming from the former are vastly more common than from the latter, which is why pilots are told to rely on their instruments.
@@h8GW Well that and even with failure of an attitude indicator on a PFD, if they're scanning, a pilot should notice they're diving from increasing airspeed, decreasing altitude, a negative reading VSI, possibly wind noise, engine, etc. Keeping the backup AH in their scan would also be an instant tip-off.
I've had an AH fail on me IRL, (steam gauge though), and you can still fly a plane in IMC with compass, airspeed, altimeter and turn coordinator. It sucks, and 2/10 would not recommend, but for these professionals it doesn't feel like "one instrument doesn't work" is a valid excuse for controlled flight into terrrain.
I'm no pilot but I would think a quick glance at your airspeed showing you're going way way over your stall speed would be enough to make you pull out of your dive.
One more ATP that can’t fly an airplane. Go figure. Pitch plus power equals performance. And hey, guess what...it’s never good when the attitude indicator is all green with no more blue side to keep up, and the altimeter is unwinding like an elevator in the Empire State Building with broken cables.
Excellent reviewof a totally frightening situation. How he managed to get into a right seat is mind boggling.
We now have a black, female vice-president, simply because she's a woman and she's black.
The FAA should be abolished and the NTSB should be put in charge of setting regulations. The FAA's mandate to promote aviation and promote safety are in direct conflict with each other.
God forbid he looked at the instruments.
This reminds me of the Teterboro crash where the First Officer failed one or more check rides and wasn't even supposed to be flying the plane.
I think that a good idea would not be this merit and so called "experience" based stuff, but pilot selection based on things like quotas, gender, sexual preferences and skin colour. That's happening in companies all over the place with _excellent_ results. Also in policing and the military. I think universities have picked up on the theme as well. The flight industry should really look into this new way of hiring to ensure everyone gets a fair go.
As a CFI my dad had one student who had been working on his pilot's license for an unusually long time. My dad was this guy's 4th IP.
The student was a lot like this guy, taking impulsive, inappropriate actions. My dad tried to break this habit but in the end told the guy he was no longer going to be teaching him, and he strongly suggested he quit taking lessons.
Another student he was teaching accidently performed a snap roll rather than a side slip as he intended. The student was startled and let the controls go half way through the snap roll. Now they were inverted at low speed and very close to the ground.
My dad was able to recover but it was a very close call, The tail of the plane was green with grass stains and wheat was tangled in the landing gear. My dad continued teaching this guy after the near crash.
I can't imagine how bad the student he refused to teach was.
@tie oneon My dad says there were 3 types of student pilot. The ones who seemed to get it easily. They had an almost intuitive sense of how to make the plane do what they want.
There is the student who doesn't have any natural ability but with enough work they can become good pilots.
Then there are the students who, no matter how much they practice or how hard they work, they simply lack the ability to control the airplane safely.
The first kind are pretty rare, as are the 3rd, the middle is by far the most common/ And intelligence seems to have nothing to do with it.
You can have someone who is dumb as a post, but he is in the first group. Another guy might have 3 PhD's and is a leading expert in some scientific field, but he is in the 3rd group.
It would be heart breaking to have the desire, but not the ability.
I wonder how many have the ability but lack the desire?
Wow..what a crazy, sad....yet very interesting story.
How in the world was this FO even a FO??? How was he even allowed any where near the cockpit of any aircraft to begin with given his training and in flight history?!? Makes you wonder how many others have faked they're way into an airplane FO seat. Was only tiny fragments of that plane left scattered all over the mud, well he succeeded in the inevitable.
Anyone surprised that the airlines he was at were Mesa, Wisconsin, or Atlas? Not one interviewer asked if he busted a check?
Atlas is known for having some of the most extensive 76 training in the industry and many have been booted from training for far less.
What wasn't mentioned in this report was how the FO threatened to sue for discrimination if he was let go. Many times.
@@postulify BINGO! thats what i wanted to hear EFFFFFF that noise for REAL...... surprised the pilots did "persuade" him to move on
@@postulify Please advise your source for this. Since you and several others want to lean on a racist explanation, I hope you can factually back this up.
@@qwaszx2 I do work in a corporate environment and have for the last 20+ years. I am also a manager with direct reports and the irony to your racist statement is that a Hispanic woman on my team is the strongest member of my team. I have also worked at a business for ten years prior to that, that did not hire a single non-white person despite receiving applications from numerous people of color. What's funny to me about your argument, if you want to call it that as it hardly is, is that there would never have been affirmative action, if people like you weren't actively avoiding hiring minorities in the first place. You claim you want the right person for the job, but historically you wanted the white person for the job, regardless of who was better qualified.
@@qwaszx2 And I'll ask the same of you as I did to OP. Where is your proof he was a diversity hire? If you know anything about the rigors of becoming an ATP, you would know that this is highly unlikely and it's based on your experience, qualifications and licensing. Was he a great pilot, clearly not given his history and circumstances, but one could easily say the same regarding the PIC as he was ultimately responsible for the FOs actions.
Great video. Great talking and explaining skills, and great audiovisual support. Thanks and good day!
"...there could be a smoking crater in your future..." Almost a bit of 'humor' there but it seems to drive the point home very bluntly and accurately.
"...there could be a smoking crater in your future." Pretty much sums it up.
NO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION HIRES IN THE COCKPIT PLEASE! It should be ONLY merit based at the controls.
As a huge aviation fan, I am happy YT suggested a video that made me discovered your channel today. I've watched a couple of your latest video, and I love your content. No nonsense reporting, and good insights, just like blancolirio. Today is a good day. :)
Great video. Found something new this time though. As a pilot, I had previously watched all the footage from the investigation report, and this was a sad refresher. However, this time I googled the 1st officer's name and found that he is black. That fact puts the repeatedly ignored failed reviews at the chain of employers in a new light: perhaps the 1st officer was allowed to keep flying because of fear of HR departments, racial quotas, and public criticism. To be fair, I did a quick search for that theory online and found nothing, so maybe hiring practices at airlines are not like that yet. I do however know that several other industries have taken "social justice" to heart and have in effect aimed solidly at the effect of not having the most qualified employees. Perhaps, just perhaps, that was the attitude that allowed this pilot to continue on an ill-suited career. I will feel comfortable as a passenger no matter who the pilot is or what he/she looks like, as long he got there by demonstrating appropriate skill.
Look at the instrument panel at all times and the artificial horizon,do not accelerate when within a cloud bank or decelerate to avoid somatogravic illusions
I went to find a picture of the FO and understand exactly why he kept getting hired - he is a black man and airlines want diversity, it's a strength or something - so an obviously unqualified pilot was allowed to fly and get socially promoted, like this was a college admission test. People are dead because a man that everyone knew was unqualified based on his skill was hired by six different airlines.
I get you want to avoid controversy in your video, but the NTSB is also ignoring the obvious (based on the clips). They are wondering how this guy slipped through the cracks. The obvious answer, because he's diverse and companies want more diverse people. And now people died. Before seeing this excellent video I didn't care what color my pilot was. Now, if I see a black pilot, I can't be sure he's qualified to fly. Hey, what's a few lives, right? We can't be systemicologically raycist. This is a sickness. We have to be judged as individuals or civilization can't function.
Or there was a pilot shortage, and if you were qualified, you were qualified.
@@chrisr4318 your comment contains a logical fallacy - the guy wasn't qualified, documented, for one thing. Where's this alleged pilot shortage? Hiring an incompetent doesn't help you if you're short a pilot, you're still short a pilot and now you're endangering lives and $$.
No, it's crystal clear what's going on.
CoLatrL.Damg3 you have no idea what I’m referencing, nevermind
20:51 you could be a smoking crater in your future - that hit different
Fantastic video. Love the analysis and very clear in your presentation
Bit of switch mode power supply in there. Happy to help consult on improving audio.
Tough to get rid of people these days...
Great job yet again!
I've had somatogravic effect and the leans in hard single pilot IFR, though in a Cessna 182 not in an airliner. Those incidents have been uncomfortable but as someone said in an earlier comment, concentrating on the instruments and briefing myself that these sensations could occur ahead of time helps. I always brief on these possibilities. I also brief my reaction to them. Continue the approach but if something goes wrong, follow the missed approach if needed and perhaps enter a hold and calm down before trying again. Believe me, I'm not trying to compare myself, with a measly PPL and instrument rating to an airline pilot. But it seems the same logic and process applies. On a side note, as a medical doctor I can tell you that if we are applying for a position in a hospital they crawl up our backsides with a colonoscope and every bit of our background is investigated. That has been the case for as long as I can remember and I've been doing this for nearly 30 years. I don't understand why that didn't happen with ATP rated pilots.
And people get mad in call of duty when your team mate gets you killed, dayum...
Salvador Rodriguez COD my friend, is serious business!
20:35 this is so well put.
I believe all this discussion about diversity and race, etc. is irrelevant to the specific issue of why these pilots did not fly this a/c properly. The real question is why and how did the a/c get flown the way it did? That is a training issue, not Human Resources. Stay focused, troops.
Skip, I couldn't agree anymore - I'm shocked how this turned down that road.
Things that make you uncomfortable are irrelevant?
It is a human resources issue, because this guy clearly failed to meet the proficiency requirements, and yet somehow, still managed to get hired.
This IS the result of Diversity Quotas
Diversity quotas don't fly the a/c. Pilots do, regardless of whatever. Focus on the pilot training and pilot actions so we can learn from this. Any discussion on diversity doesn't aid us on flying the a/c . Focus.
This reads like another Boeing cover up. Someone please explain "Where's my speed,my speed?" + "Stall!"
because this illusion doesn't make you think you have NO speed. instruments do that.
Big fan of your videos Paul!
On the Blancolirio channel, Juan has a great video on how it’s not uncommon for a captain PM when reaching around the throttles to change the flap handle (flaps 1) in turbulence to hit the go around button with their watch. He’s seen it happen from the jump seat and the pilots did not notice it.
Also he talks about that the pilots had so much opposite yoke in put that it physically separated the connected yokes. Could not the pilots feel the opposite force of the other pilot and say something?
Exactly !!! It's way more likely that the Capt hit the GA. Yes, the Capt would have, at least, felt the opposite force, and yes, he would have said something. No, the yokes won't separate - technically you'd get a split elevator if both pushed in the opposite direction.
@@WeTubeIn90210 Per Juan's report on the details of the 767 elevator system, you can sheer the left and right yoke interconnect for the elevator that gives you the split elevator but now they're disconnected and it took over 50lbs of force to do it. See ua-cam.com/video/PQLT9GLDYt0/v-deo.html about half way through.
@@jlorenz55 Concur and Agree. I'm looking at the Flight Control Systems now and the "Column Override" will shear causing the split elevator. I'll have to check out that link - thanks.
You know, this further cements my opinion that the two pilots WERE NOT fighting over the controls. If you sit through the 4hr NTSB briefing, they make reference that the airplane showing a slight roll due to the Capt pulling the yoke in the opposite direction (one elevator up/one down). That's a completely false statement, IMHO. Finding that Column Override (sheared or intact) would've been a priority - they must have found it. The airplane rolling would've been backed-up with this evidence.
I'd even open the possibility that the Capt is flying the airplane, at this point. This would explain why there wasn't a change of controls (I would’ve grabbed the controls as well) and it sheds light on his silence (he's busy fighting for his life). Of note: the data recorder only records the Captain's control collum not the FO's
@@WeTubeIn90210 Thanks for the reply, I enjoy the discussion
The bottom line is the FO could not fly the plane in a stressful situation. It is the difference between having skills (being skilled), and being talented.
He was not talented enough to fly the plane. It was too complex for him.
When it showed up in the simulator, (multiple times), he should have been grounded (time to find a different job).
Blame the FAA if you want. Each of these airlines failed just a badly as the FO did.
The issues of skills and talent do not begin and end in the cockpit. It is a "difference maker" at every level in a company.
This accident showcases a failure of the system at all levels. And I’m not just talking about the piloting perspective.
The aviation system in and of itself is extremely safe, and there are lots of safeguards and redundancy built in to ensure the bad pilots wash out and the good ones get to continue flying.
However, the system is only effective and reliable if the “gatekeepers” to career advancement (i.e, instructors, examiners, and hiring/HR departments) and fellow pilots speak up when they are concerned about the proficiency of a co-worker.
This first officer - Conrad Aska - simply put, had no business flying airplanes of any size for a living. Poor ADM and flying skills do not manifest themselves in large jets alone, but rather at all levels of flying.
This was demonstrated by the FO’s poor training record. Multiple primary training and even Part 121 checkride failures. Many complaints from fellow pilots.
By the time Aska got to Atlas and was flying 767s, everyone knew he did not have the “right stuff” - and yet he still was able to get the job and continue flying.
Why is that? He was argumentative, impulsive, a “button masher,” and had multiple checkride failures.
I think that at the end of the day, many of the gatekeepers are just afraid or hesitant to do their jobs properly because it’s an uncomfortable spot to be in. Nobody likes to end someone else’s career. It’s much easier to lie to yourself and write off a student’s poor performance as a bad day, or something they’ll be able to be trained up on. It feels bad to have to confront someone for their poor performance - especially someone as argumentative as Aska - but to do anything else, as we can see from this accident, is criminally unacceptable.
Yes, Conrad Aska was definitely at fault for this accident. But an entire system built around training to proficiency and bandaging up the performance of bad pilots, while examiners hesitate to just call a spade a spade and toss out the candidates who just aren’t meant to be pilots, is just as culpable for these three lives ending prematurely. Repeated checkride failures and the company’s knowledge of his awful piloting reputation are worthless if nobody acts on them and fires him.
There is a massive demand for pilots (or at least was, pre-COVID) that should return once the worldwide economy has recovered. The training system will be in full-on push pilots through to staff flights mode. Hopefully they will recognize some of the issues I listed above and fix them. If history is any indicator, I doubt anything will have changed though. Stay vigilant out there.
agree
This is a wonderful video on aviation safety. Loved it.
Bertorelli. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Fantastic review Paul!
For people making racist claims about the FO - race has no bearing on piloting skill whatsoever. I have shared the flight deck with men and women of all races, and none of them is more of a natural pilot than the rest. This FO simply slipped through the cracks; a fault of the system that is not limited to any one race at all - believe me. RIP to all on board.
Thank you! Your classes are always on point and enlightening!
"There could be a smoking crater in your future." That is a sobering warning if there ever was one.
Somatogravic illusion seems to be the new go to explanation.
How did this guy’s personality alone not throw red flags everywhere? Someone that constantly crumbles under stress in scenarios that could kill them and everyone around them in a SIMULATOR and still assumes that role in real life has to be one egotistical narcissistic SOB. If you can’t handle yourself under pressure in a simulator then you damn sure aren’t going to be able to handle it when a real life situation smacks you in the face. Talk about a serious case of denial. His ego cost the lives of everyone else on that aircraft. So sad.
For real, if you become full of anxiety from an emergency procedure in a simulator, imagine how you will react when it happens in real life........
Yes, the first officer did cause the accident, however, the FAA had the responsibility to provide a check and balance system where the complete record of the pilot was available to the hiring airline. Ultimately, this accident was due to the FAA's inert attitude getting the system in place. Had this happened over Houston, and that plane didn't hit Galveston Bay, which is not a swamp, the results could have been a disaster.
The FAA has repeatedly counted body bags because they failed to act, because it may interrupt air travel. When the FAA’s allowed Boeing to write the acceptance for the 737 max, it verified the agency is inept and inert, and should be overhauled with a change of mission where safety is first and always regardless of the cost or procedures.
"Homo the Sap". Gotta write that one down. Took me a second to get it.
Great thorough presentation.
Well, I’ve watched over 4hrs of NTSB briefings and I’ve read the NTSB report, attachments as well. Absolutely nowhere was race found as a Finding, Causal Factor, or Contributing Factor for obvious reasons - I mean we don’t conclude that the vast majority of accidents are due to caucasian men at the controls, right? So let’s keep that nonsense out of this.
One can point that this FO didn’t have a great training history but that’s not why THEY pushed the nose over. In fact, if you read the report you’d see that both pilots were given remedial training due to unsatisfactory performance, but they were both trained to satisfaction and we have no reason not to assume they were capable.
My post is intended for intelligent aviators to stop and think this through 1) The FO did not have his hand near the GA switch. I’ve never seen any FO do that and rest assure this question was asked if anyone noticed it on previous flights. If so, that bit of information would’ve been included. 2) The FO’s exclamation “where’s my speed bug” is a massive clue. 3) The Captain’s dead silence is a clue that he too is confused. The NTSB’s portrayal of the Captain seems as though he’s in the lavatory and completely at the will of the FO.
NTSB should be ashamed of themselves
Great comment. I cannot understand why the NTSB and Paul did not discuss the presence (or lack of) of the captain. Why the captain did not intervene and reduce power is a puzzle to me. Like the two 737 Max fatal accidents, I cannot understand why thrust was not reduced until impact. That is worth studying as an industry training problem. The PIC is responsible and seems to be left out in this discussion.
@ihategoogle The Captain is always the PIC. He was not the PF. Please take your philosophical and psychological argument elsewhere. We are discussing the methods and motives of how the accident happened and how to train in the future to avoid it happening again.
@ihategoogle This tread is intended for “real aviators” discussion - clearly you don’t belong: 1) “Captain” literally means “PIC” 2) Nope, no checklist was heard on the recording 3) I’d say you’re doing just fine in exercising the race card
@@skipwood2059
I don't understand why you're shaming the NTSB.I mean their conclusions based on recorders and data and I guess parts of it also on the training history of the pilot.Granted I am not a pilot and haven't read or heard the whole report,but I would hope that the NTSB is neutral??
@@maanmohammad8459 After 64 years of licensed piloting and 40 professionally, I have been involved in and have read many NTSB investigations. I have no personal bias against the NTSB. They perform a great service to deliver data and facts associated with an accident, but the final report narrative is a compilation of the views of the numerous investigators. There is bias in every human as you have seen by watching this video and especially reading the comments. I believe there was bias in the narrative. Additionally, many NTSB reports are contested by various parties and the final report is changed. Let's keep our dialogue moving. Thank you for your thoughts.
Great video, Paul!
16:45 the reason he was behind the controls is.....
no one gives a poop.... because he isnt flying passengers
.
im sure he tried to get a job flying pax.... but failed the tests
so he went to the next highest paying job..... flying boxes of goods from china for a greedy company....
.
and if he failed that..... he would probably have gone to crop spraying.....
.
but ya..... standards are relaxed when you arnt in control of 100+ peoples lives
same goes for locomotive engineers....
.
fright train guys can be big screw ups
but the AMTRAK guys are way higher quality workers
.
same for driving
any idiot can get a drivers license..... we see idiots on the road every day
.
but when you start driving a buss..... or other transport jobs....
people piss test you.... ride along for a few weeks.... have real time data to see if your speeding....
heck..... look at semi truck drivers now days..... they are nothing but steering wheel holders.
NO ONE! does a pre-trip inspection anymore.
.
if it starts and builds air..... even if it takes longer than it should (aka, air leak)....
they dont care.... just put it in gear and take off.
.
and then when the leaking hose snaps.... and they have no brakes (as they didnt inspect their spring brakes either)
and crash into a school buss.
.
ONLY THEN does the DOT give a crap
I could see this happening at 30 feet, but 300 should be recoverable and over three thousand is inexcusable and poor airmanship from both seats.