Thanks for the kind words. I find many philosophers quite abstruse and pedantic, but there is a real flow to Plato’s dialogues. Are there any other philosophers you’ve been reading? Cheers, Jack
You hit the nail on the head here. Whenever I'm asked where to start I always recommend Euthyphro, Apology, Crito and Phaedo because I started there and now I'm a Plato junkie! I'd also agree with you on the Republic, without knowing the allusions to the other dialogues and Plato's style it can be a very odd dialogue. After Protagoras and Meno, I think engaging with some psuedo-Plato can be a fun exercise, 1st Alcibiades and the Letters are very enjoyable for that purpose. Alternatively, the Phaedrus (my favourite dialogue) has a poetic Socrates similar to the Symposium and poses some very challenging arguments about writing. I have also found some alternative reading orders that emphasise pedagogy, such as Kahn 1996 and Altman 2010, which might be of interest for some though I prefer the reading order here. To build upon your list here I'd also say that Derrida's 'Plato's Pharmacy' and Vlastos' 'Platonic Studies' are interesting for further research - Derrida for continental philosophy, and Vlastos for analytic philosophy. Oh and of course I'd love to hear more about Plato!
Thanks for the recommendations on Derrida and Vlastos! The branches from the various Pseudo-Platos are interesting. I had not realized how many there are until I acquired a Complete Works that included everything that had Plato’s name attached. I’ll definitely be taking a close look at Alcibiades. I hope your week is wrapping up well! Cheers, Jack
I have a big book of the Collected Dialogues of Plato and was working front to back in my twenties. I had a class in Greek Philosophy in college so knew a bit already. I need to go back someday and revisit.
Let me know if you’d ever like to read one of the dialogues and discuss it on Voxer, Greg. I try to read one new one from Plato or the various Pseudo-Platos each year, though I like to skip around rather than front to back. Hope you have a great start to the week. Best, Jack
Apologia is definitely the place I would recommend to someone who is diving into Plato. Honestly, it has been long enough since reading anything except the Republic that my mind can't separate Apologia and Crito.
Crito follows Apologia so well and gives a sort of application of the ideas Plato (and Socrates) expressed in the defense, so I conflate the two as well. Hope you’ve had a good weekend. Best, Jack
useful video, Thank you. I have read some Plato. Did not enjoy reading 'the Republic' in a class as my first experience. I remember being really disturbed about the so called utopian society idealized towards the end, I believe. I remember enjoying the Symposium because it seems like it had more of a narrative experience. Also I remembered enjoying Timaeus in between reading the works of St Augustine trying to see the connection between Plato and his theology. thanks again for the video
Oh, absolutely, regarding the ideal Republic. I think the Peloponnesian War and the execution of Socrates really inform that, and a reader who is unaware will be shocked by Plato’s ideals. Timaeus was enormously influential on the Neoplatonic writers. I think Phaedo also cast a long shadow for them, but I don’t see it discussed as frequently. Hope you’re having a great weekend! Cheers, Jack
Me too I didn’t enjoy the republic read it twice hopefully it would be the only work of him that I’ll loathe….even the arguments he made are so ancient and honestly not useful in today’s age…
How did I know Timeaus and Critias would make the list!! :D I support Republic not being a starting point. The Allegory of the Cave is great but much else of it can be viewed as relics of its era. My first was the Symposium. I'd love to see more Plato videos.
So you’re in favor of currency over a barter economy?!? Great call on Timaeus, that lost continent has a LOT to answer for. I’ll see when I can catch up to the peripatetics and make sense of the Forms! Cheers, Jack
The flamingos are fantastic. You should buy some Indonesian batik for your wardrobe. Looks like I picked a good place to start with Oxford World Classic's version of The Apologia, Crito and Euthyphro! Arriving in the mail soon...I'm looking to compare Penguin classics and Oxford classics in quality.
Thanks! Those dialogues set around Socrates’ final days will be a great way to first experience Plato, and I hope you enjoy them. Both Oxford and Penguin provide great notes and introductions to the works of Plato. Translations may differ, so you may find that you have a strong preference for specific editions. Hackett is another solid publisher of Plato’s works. I hope you’re having a nice end to this week! Cheers, Jack
The allegory of the cave blew my mind in college. I was like 15-years-old. Great video, Jack! Plato is a philosopher that I’d love to get to know more. If you were to choose a favorite Plato work, what would of be? Sincerely, Shelly
Thanks, Shelly! That allegory is one of the finest images Plato sketches. I always enjoy when students are exposed to it. I think my favorite dialogue from Plato is Protagoras, though Hippias Minor is shorter and very funny as a quick introduction. Hope your week wraps up well! Cheers, Jack
Wonderful topic. I agree with you on The Republic, I remember it being one of the toughest ones back when I studied it. Do high school students typically study Plato in the US, or is it more of a college subject?
Thanks, Tom! The Republic makes so much more sense in the wake of the Apology, Crito, and Phaedo along with some Spartan history. Allegory of the Cave is commonly assigned to high school students, but the full Republic dialogue is delayed until college. A number of universities have an introductory course for honors students that uses Thucydides as the first text in the syllabus. Hope you’re having a nice end to this week! Cheers, Jack
Agree the Apologia and Crito are fantastic and a great place to start. I think I started with Meno though don’t completely remember. I I’ve never read Hippias dialogues. How is that possible? 🤷♀️
Meno is short, which is definitely a plus when trying out a new writer. I rarely hear the Hippias dialogues mentioned. I think the Laws get more play! Hope you’re having a nice end to the week, Stephanie! Cheers, Jack
As a long time reader of Plato, I would say that the order that you read him is not very important. If you really want to understand Plato, you are going to have to read and re-read all of his works. I would say that one should start by focusing on whichever dialogues seem the most interesting. One is never truly ready to tackle a platonic dialogue, so oftentimes just jumping in is the way to go. Republic Timeaus
Major in English literature as a college student is very difficult for me because I need to read many literature works in English( I’m not a native speaker) But your videos help me a lot I appreciate your passion for literature, which makes me learn to enjoy reading Btw how do you keep your books in a good quality? I have many books that their pages turn to yellow with time. It bothers me so much (Sorry for the bad English)
Thanks for the kind words! Hopefully you continue to enjoy what you read. In terms of keeping books in good shape, I try not to break the spines when I read. I also live in the southwestern US, where it is very dry, so I don’t have to worry about humidity affecting the books. Pages turn yellow from the acid content in the paper. For example, Penguin Classics sometimes smell slightly of vinegar because of the acid in the paper. As the chemicals interact over time, the pages will yellow. I hope you have a great weekend! Cheers, Jack
Why not start with what interests you? Plato is so complex and diverse that most people won't be attracted to this type of reading. So for those who are, why limit their entry point? I did my senior seminar on Plato in undergrad and we focused on just paragraphs and sentences for weeks. You couldn't get through more than four dialogues in a semester if you tried--at least were I studied.
Socratic dialectics is not something that is simply meant to negate an opposing argument. It's meant to take us beyond the original framing of the argument. It is also extremely political. Without these dialogues we will not understand the radical nature of the philosopher that is so important to understanding the performative contradictions of the other dialogues.
@@ramblingraconteur1616 I've read the Apology, the Euthyphro, the Crito, the Symposium, and the Phaedo. A lot of them I need to reread, though. And obviously there is a lot I still haven't read.
_"The Atlantean race was a very conglomerate social complex which began to form approximately three one oh oh oh, thirty-one thousand [31,000] years in the past of your space/time continuum illusion. It was a slow growing and very agrarian society until approximately one five oh oh oh, fifteen thousand [15,000] of your years ago. It reached quickly a high technological understanding which caused it to be able to use intelligent infinity in a less informative manner. We may add that they used intelligent energy as well, manipulating greatly the natural influxes of the indigo or pineal ray from divine or infinite energy. Thus, they were able to create life forms. This they began to do instead of healing and perfecting their own mind/body/spirit complexes, turning their distortions towards what you may call the negative._ _Approximately eleven thousand [11,000] of your years ago, the first of the, what you call, wars, caused approximately forty percent of this population to leave the density by means of disintegration of the body. The second and most devastating of the conflicts occurred approximately one oh eight two one, ten thousand eight hundred twenty-one [10,821] years in the past according to your illusion. This created an earth-changing configuration and the large part of Atlantis was no more, having been inundated. Three of the positively oriented of the Atlantean groups left this geographical locus before that devastation, placing themselves in the mountain areas of what you call Tibet, what you call Peru, and what you call Turkey._ Ra Material (1981) By the way, it's rather obvious that Plato had access to knowledge _all but lost_ to the modern world. It's too bad we don't have a source book to enrichen our understanding of Plato. Who truly understands the allegory of the cave? They go into the Sun, but choose to return? Why its perverse! Good vid. hard to find something tolerable about Plato on youtube.
The fun of studying ancient philosophy in university is going from the poetic POWER of Plato and the ideas therein and then moving to Aristotle and his boring yapping.
Read the republic twice…couldn’t enjoy or absorb any of the concepts…it was sooooo draining…and a boring read to be honest….is it my fault ??.?…thought I must start with something different first….anyways thanks for the advice 🤍🤍
Love the shirt! I used to love philosophy in college and now 30 years later I feel like I don't know where to begin. This was helpful 🤓
Thanks for the kind words. I find many philosophers quite abstruse and pedantic, but there is a real flow to Plato’s dialogues. Are there any other philosophers you’ve been reading?
Cheers, Jack
Great job with this Jack.
Thanks, Brian! Not sure what direction to head in next with these Where Not to Start videos. Such a great idea on your part!
Cheers, Jack
You hit the nail on the head here. Whenever I'm asked where to start I always recommend Euthyphro, Apology, Crito and Phaedo because I started there and now I'm a Plato junkie! I'd also agree with you on the Republic, without knowing the allusions to the other dialogues and Plato's style it can be a very odd dialogue. After Protagoras and Meno, I think engaging with some psuedo-Plato can be a fun exercise, 1st Alcibiades and the Letters are very enjoyable for that purpose. Alternatively, the Phaedrus (my favourite dialogue) has a poetic Socrates similar to the Symposium and poses some very challenging arguments about writing.
I have also found some alternative reading orders that emphasise pedagogy, such as Kahn 1996 and Altman 2010, which might be of interest for some though I prefer the reading order here.
To build upon your list here I'd also say that Derrida's 'Plato's Pharmacy' and Vlastos' 'Platonic Studies' are interesting for further research - Derrida for continental philosophy, and Vlastos for analytic philosophy.
Oh and of course I'd love to hear more about Plato!
Thanks for the recommendations on Derrida and Vlastos! The branches from the various Pseudo-Platos are interesting. I had not realized how many there are until I acquired a Complete Works that included everything that had Plato’s name attached. I’ll definitely be taking a close look at Alcibiades. I hope your week is wrapping up well!
Cheers, Jack
I love these kind of videos and you were spot on. My first exposure was just the exerpt of the cave allegory and I was hooked!
Thanks, Brandon. The Allegory of the Cave is spectacular! Have you also read Aristotle? Hope you’re having a nice end to the week
Cheers, Jack
@@ramblingraconteur1616 I have! Pretty big Philosophy nerd here, especially the greeks!
I have a big book of the Collected Dialogues of Plato and was working front to back in my twenties. I had a class in Greek Philosophy in college so knew a bit already. I need to go back someday and revisit.
Let me know if you’d ever like to read one of the dialogues and discuss it on Voxer, Greg. I try to read one new one from Plato or the various Pseudo-Platos each year, though I like to skip around rather than front to back. Hope you have a great start to the week.
Best, Jack
@@ramblingraconteur1616 I would definitely read some Plato on Voxer. Did you have one in mind?
Apologia is definitely the place I would recommend to someone who is diving into Plato. Honestly, it has been long enough since reading anything except the Republic that my mind can't separate Apologia and Crito.
Crito follows Apologia so well and gives a sort of application of the ideas Plato (and Socrates) expressed in the defense, so I conflate the two as well. Hope you’ve had a good weekend.
Best, Jack
useful video, Thank you. I have read some Plato. Did not enjoy reading 'the Republic' in a class as my first experience. I remember being really disturbed about the so called utopian society idealized towards the end, I believe. I remember enjoying the Symposium because it seems like it had more of a narrative experience. Also I remembered enjoying Timaeus in between reading the works of St Augustine trying to see the connection between Plato and his theology.
thanks again for the video
Oh, absolutely, regarding the ideal Republic. I think the Peloponnesian War and the execution of Socrates really inform that, and a reader who is unaware will be shocked by Plato’s ideals.
Timaeus was enormously influential on the Neoplatonic writers. I think Phaedo also cast a long shadow for them, but I don’t see it discussed as frequently.
Hope you’re having a great weekend!
Cheers, Jack
Me too I didn’t enjoy the republic read it twice hopefully it would be the only work of him that I’ll loathe….even the arguments he made are so ancient and honestly not useful in today’s age…
How did I know Timeaus and Critias would make the list!! :D
I support Republic not being a starting point. The Allegory of the Cave is great but much else of it can be viewed as relics of its era.
My first was the Symposium.
I'd love to see more Plato videos.
So you’re in favor of currency over a barter economy?!? Great call on Timaeus, that lost continent has a LOT to answer for. I’ll see when I can catch up to the peripatetics and make sense of the Forms!
Cheers, Jack
I need to read Hippias Minor.
And you don’t even need to read Hippias Major to enjoy it! Hope this week is wrapping up well for you.
Cheers, Jack
The flamingos are fantastic. You should buy some Indonesian batik for your wardrobe. Looks like I picked a good place to start with Oxford World Classic's version of The Apologia, Crito and Euthyphro! Arriving in the mail soon...I'm looking to compare Penguin classics and Oxford classics in quality.
Thanks! Those dialogues set around Socrates’ final days will be a great way to first experience Plato, and I hope you enjoy them.
Both Oxford and Penguin provide great notes and introductions to the works of Plato. Translations may differ, so you may find that you have a strong preference for specific editions. Hackett is another solid publisher of Plato’s works.
I hope you’re having a nice end to this week!
Cheers, Jack
The allegory of the cave blew my mind in college. I was like 15-years-old. Great video, Jack! Plato is a philosopher that I’d love to get to know more. If you were to choose a favorite Plato work, what would of be?
Sincerely, Shelly
Thanks, Shelly! That allegory is one of the finest images Plato sketches. I always enjoy when students are exposed to it.
I think my favorite dialogue from Plato is Protagoras, though Hippias Minor is shorter and very funny as a quick introduction.
Hope your week wraps up well!
Cheers, Jack
Wonderful topic. I agree with you on The Republic, I remember it being one of the toughest ones back when I studied it. Do high school students typically study Plato in the US, or is it more of a college subject?
Thanks, Tom! The Republic makes so much more sense in the wake of the Apology, Crito, and Phaedo along with some Spartan history.
Allegory of the Cave is commonly assigned to high school students, but the full Republic dialogue is delayed until college. A number of universities have an introductory course for honors students that uses Thucydides as the first text in the syllabus.
Hope you’re having a nice end to this week!
Cheers, Jack
Start with Alcibiades and then Gorgias and then Symposium I think…just follow the Neoplatonic Curriculum.
Agree the Apologia and Crito are fantastic and a great place to start. I think I started with Meno though don’t completely remember. I
I’ve never read Hippias dialogues. How is that possible? 🤷♀️
Meno is short, which is definitely a plus when trying out a new writer. I rarely hear the Hippias dialogues mentioned. I think the Laws get more play! Hope you’re having a nice end to the week, Stephanie!
Cheers, Jack
As a long time reader of Plato, I would say that the order that you read him is not very important. If you really want to understand Plato, you are going to have to read and re-read all of his works. I would say that one should start by focusing on whichever dialogues seem the most interesting. One is never truly ready to tackle a platonic dialogue, so oftentimes just jumping in is the way to go.
Republic
Timeaus
Major in English literature as a college student is very difficult for me because I need to read many literature works in English( I’m not a native speaker)
But your videos help me a lot
I appreciate your passion for literature, which makes me learn to enjoy reading
Btw how do you keep your books in a good quality? I have many books that their pages turn to yellow with time. It bothers me so much
(Sorry for the bad English)
Thanks for the kind words! Hopefully you continue to enjoy what you read.
In terms of keeping books in good shape, I try not to break the spines when I read. I also live in the southwestern US, where it is very dry, so I don’t have to worry about humidity affecting the books. Pages turn yellow from the acid content in the paper. For example, Penguin Classics sometimes smell slightly of vinegar because of the acid in the paper. As the chemicals interact over time, the pages will yellow.
I hope you have a great weekend!
Cheers, Jack
@@ramblingraconteur1616 thank for the reply!
Why not start with what interests you? Plato is so complex and diverse that most people won't be attracted to this type of reading. So for those who are, why limit their entry point? I did my senior seminar on Plato in undergrad and we focused on just paragraphs and sentences for weeks. You couldn't get through more than four dialogues in a semester if you tried--at least were I studied.
Socratic dialectics is not something that is simply meant to negate an opposing argument. It's meant to take us beyond the original framing of the argument. It is also extremely political. Without these dialogues we will not understand the radical nature of the philosopher that is so important to understanding the performative contradictions of the other dialogues.
Last Days Of Socrates: Euthyphro; Apology; Crito; Phaedo
I started with The Republic and I like to think that I didn't do so bad. 🤓
You made it out of the Cave! What other dialogues have you read from Plato, Lukas? I hope you’re having a positive end to this semester!
Cheers, Jack
@@ramblingraconteur1616 I've read the Apology, the Euthyphro, the Crito, the Symposium, and the Phaedo. A lot of them I need to reread, though. And obviously there is a lot I still haven't read.
Milton Erickson is the reincarnation of Socrates. I honestly believe.
_"The Atlantean race was a very conglomerate social complex which began to form approximately three one oh oh oh, thirty-one thousand [31,000] years in the past of your space/time continuum illusion. It was a slow growing and very agrarian society until approximately one five oh oh oh, fifteen thousand [15,000] of your years ago. It reached quickly a high technological understanding which caused it to be able to use intelligent infinity in a less informative manner. We may add that they used intelligent energy as well, manipulating greatly the natural influxes of the indigo or pineal ray from divine or infinite energy. Thus, they were able to create life forms. This they began to do instead of healing and perfecting their own mind/body/spirit complexes, turning their distortions towards what you may call the negative._
_Approximately eleven thousand [11,000] of your years ago, the first of the, what you call, wars, caused approximately forty percent of this population to leave the density by means of disintegration of the body. The second and most devastating of the conflicts occurred approximately one oh eight two one, ten thousand eight hundred twenty-one [10,821] years in the past according to your illusion. This created an earth-changing configuration and the large part of Atlantis was no more, having been inundated. Three of the positively oriented of the Atlantean groups left this geographical locus before that devastation, placing themselves in the mountain areas of what you call Tibet, what you call Peru, and what you call Turkey._
Ra Material (1981)
By the way, it's rather obvious that Plato had access to knowledge _all but lost_ to the modern world. It's too bad we don't have a source book to enrichen our understanding of Plato. Who truly understands the allegory of the cave? They go into the Sun, but choose to return? Why its perverse!
Good vid. hard to find something tolerable about Plato on youtube.
The fun of studying ancient philosophy in university is going from the poetic POWER of Plato and the ideas therein and then moving to Aristotle and his boring yapping.
Haha, absolutely! Aristotle sure likes to make sure we have our definitions down. Hope you’re having a great weekend!
Cheers, Jack
Read the republic twice…couldn’t enjoy or absorb any of the concepts…it was sooooo draining…and a boring read to be honest….is it my fault
??.?…thought I must start with something different first….anyways thanks for the advice 🤍🤍