Well done Philip having grown up in Blackburn south and now living in Doncaster East for 30 years your look back into the history of the proposed railway was fascinating. I can still remember when Canterbury road Blackburn south was dirt.
Whilst they are deciding on what train service to introduce, extend the route 48 from Kew to Tunstall Square along Doncaster rd. At the same time carry out a stop rationalisation on the route 48, possibly rerouting it so that travel to the city is faster (maybe along Victoria Street).
We're building our third through to Ellenbrook it's 21km long has 3 tunnels, 5 stations, around 5km of elevated rail through Whiteman Park and is being engineered for trains to travel at 130kp/h it'll connect with the Airport/Midland line at Bayswater
@@soulsphere9242 one of the proposals was continue in tunnel under Fitzroy up Smith or Brunswick St with a station there and join the City Loop at Parliament. To relieve that stretch of surface line.
@@fatheranthony4popethat’s efficient. Swap to another line and wait for next train. Want to know how many will climb in the car in their driveway with that. Most. And the ‘second’ SRL. That’s as pie in the sky as the 17 other proposals for Doncaster but hold that thought. We might not be massively in debt by that time and just afford it.
@@fatheranthony4pope That's insufficient. The SRL will only link Doncaster Shoppingtown to Box Hill, all the areas East of that will be ignored. And having to link to another train line is highly time consuming during peak hour
Part of the issue is that while the bus is super quick to get to Collingwood (faster than a train at many times) it then crawls into the city. Melbourne City Council wants a proper busway along Lonsdale - if you had a proper separated lane along Hoddle, Vic Pde and Lonsdale with some light priority, you would get a good result. From memory the Doncaster Rail Study flagged the problem of the Clifton Hill group's capacity, which can only be fixed with MM2 I think
Train tunnel via North Richmond and Kew. Kee is currently only served by trams and would benefit from a heavy rail link. Plus this is the most direct route to Donny
Totally agree with this route but I'd extend it even further. My thoughts are the following Ringwood Airport. Essentially Melb city council's MM3 proposal, but obviously will require a lot of tunnelling which people won't be a fan of.
Use to play along the creek in Bulleen where the freeway now sits, remember my folks talking about a possible rail project so we moved in the early 70's. There were still some Orchards opposite Ayre st along High St, better times back then.
I live in Doncaster, although I am closer to The Pines than Doncaster Shopping Town. The traffic in Eastern Freeway is actually not as bad as the media wants you to think. The worst I’ve ever experienced is probably a 10-15 minutes delay from Melbourne CBD to Doncaster, and the heavy traffic is mainly just causing slow speed but not much stalling. The Monash Freeway is definitely 10× worse during peak hours. It took us over an hour to get from Mount Waverley to Pakenham one Friday evening. And yes, that’s despite having an Alt Princes Highway route AND a train line that’s literally just South of the Freeway running parallel to it! Although I think the toll road that starts just after Doncaster East is probably why. Eastern Freeway might actually be worse if Eastlink was free
Yeah, the major congestion tends to happen around Bulleen Rd and the Hoddle St/ Alexandra Ave exits. Other than that, it is mostly free flowing unless there has been an accident.
But if you're commuting by bus then the bottleneck happens after the bus enters Hoddle Street. Going from there to the CBD during peak hour often takes longer than going from the Pines to Hoddle Street.
They should never have closed the outer rail. This may have been the link to Doncaster. As for the link between Doncaster and Box Hill, well we did have trams going between the two suburbs. This was the first electrified Tram route in Melbourne. "The First Electric Road" A History of the Box Hill and Doncaster tramway by Robert Green.
And with the growth of "light rail" it wouldn't be impossible for the tram to go there. Although with the house building the optimal routes have already been built over. The remaining two roads are very steep. Although Seattle has shown the way with an elevated tram from the airport to the city and now to beyond it.
There was a electric tram that went to Doncaster. This started in 1886 and was bulit from land owners to make there land more interesting. This tram ran until 1900. Later about 1925 the MMTB had a plan for a tram from Doncaster to the city. This tram route wasn't bulit.
They have apparently proposed to build a line along there as a part of the Metro Tunnel 2 project which apparently will soon commence construction and is seemingly more likely to happen compared to the suburban rail loop.
Perhaps another alternative is extending the tram that runs to North Balwyn Route 48. Given that already runs on Doncaster Road, it could easily be extended to Westfield Doncaster heading up the hill from the freeway.
I clicked on this story because I thought "I've been to Doncaster many times by train". I was thinking of the original Doncaster in Yorkshire, England, which an important junction on the East Coast Main Line between London and Edinburgh. I didn't know there was a Doncaster in Australia.
Almost every suburb in Melbourne that does not have an Indigenous name, shares the name of a town or county in the UK. Suburbs in Melbourne for example; Thornbury, Cranbourne, Brighton, Coventry, Tottenham, Windsor & Woodstock. Some of these suburbs were named after their founders though.
There was a another proposal for a railway from Canterbury to Doncaster via Balwyn in the 1890s. Parts of this reserve still exist as Shrublands Creek Reserve and John August Reserve in Canterbury, Iramoo St in Balwyn and a series of connected parks from Ridgway Park to Gallery Chain Extension Park in Mont Albert. You can also see the infill of some unusually shaped blocks just north of Yarrbat Ave and at the end of Pryton Ct in Balwyn.
Great video! Doncaster is the number one zombie project for time passed since first proposed. To think that even the Outer Circle, and Rosstown railways got built. Even if they both never fulfilled their intended purpose. There will be no further action on Doncaster rail anytime soon. What with Level Crossing Removal program, Airport Rail and Metro Tunnel. Electrifying the line to Geelong is another zombie project.
@@smedleyfarnsworth263 Good point. Forgot about Rowville. Proposed to serve the former VFL park/Waverley Park, as well as Rowville. Since that facility closed to AFL matches, probably another reason for putting Rowville line on the back burner.
@@railtrolley The surrounding suburbs are still there and growing. I would take the Rowville line right through to Ferntree Gully on the Belgrave line and form a loop.
Sadly there are several rail projects in vic that would get priority before a doncaster rail line. Given its access to the eastern fway and regular bus service, a railway i believe is now low priority.
As we are playing fantasies.... Modern Tram (fewer stops than existing lines) from Box Hill, via Doncaster, Heidelburg, Bell St, join existing tram around Essendon, on to the airport. This links multiple rail lines across north of the city, great for access to the airport. Gets very difficult between Bell St & joining tram route 59 at Essendon airport, but brighter minds could figure that out. 59 Continues to the airport too. Most people think about the travellers, but such a route will help workers a lot.
Why not just run a fast limited stop light rail up the eastern freeway reservation like they were going to with the rail then surface up the hill to Doncaster. Better than stop start via Box Hill
I went to school in this area and would have benefited heavily from having the Doncaster/Bulleen rail! It would take me longer than an hour from Northcote every morning, via tram, train and bus.
It's good to know that there is at least reasonably good public transport by way of regular buses into the city at the "Doncaster Park & Ride" open air terminal. Hope they will bring the trains to Doncaster and sneak the line under ground with a station in Westfiled Shoppo. Can't wait for the SRL loop unless the start with an interim Box hill-Doncaster section first.
If you have been to South Morang's Westfield, the train station isn't quite underground, but it's conveniently tucked away. The same setup could absolutely work at Doncaster if they were to either run the line up from Vic park or Box Hill.
It DOES need a train line…however the main reason why there isn’t one is because Ventura has the monopoly on transport out in the North East, buying out and shelving all ideas for a rail link to the city. This is why the closest Doncaster will get to having a rail service will be the suburban rail loop, mentioned, which will connect Box Hill to Doncaster and then on Heidelberg.
Dedicated busway from Doncaster Park and Ride and the soon to open Bulleen park and ride into the CBD makes the most sense, an extension of the D.A.R.T system
When the freeway was being built, the Country Roads Board, now VicRoads, had a model diorama on display of the completed freeway on the NW cnr of Belford and Willsmere Rds. It was about 3 metres long. It featured two tram lines up the centre median, all the way to Doncaster. It didnt go ahead because of short sighted planning, Doncaster still had Orchards and Cows then. It was to be an express service, so the demand just wasnt there in the early 70s The model on display, featured triple carriage mustard colored trams, before trams were mustard colored. So trams, never trains.
An underground station under the existing road junction at Doncaster Hill aka where the shopping centre and all the apartments are located (either built or planned to be built) may be feasible if it connects to Box Hill i.e. the shortest train route. Anything between Doncaster Hill and the CBD, using the middle of the Eastern freeway for a rail track only makes sense if no intervening stations are built along the way - insufficient population density and where does one park to access a station even if it was built?
As Balwyn and Fairfield are already adequately served, the train could run direct from Doncaster Road until the inner suburbs where it would either run to the city via the Clifton Hill Group or a new tunnel. For now however given the post Covid realities, BRT is probably the best we can hope for. A properly constructed BRT (segregated from road traffic a la Brisbane) could be quite the go.
Even a tram service from westfield shopping center to box hill centeral via tram road. But the need to go to the city is also a service trams couldnt service adequately. Considering the 2 adjacent lines (lilydale/hurstbridge) proximity to the doncaster region I always believed that this was the reason it stays a zombie that they dont want to ad another service inbetween the 2 lines, for people living in the area its a hard geographic place to navigate during peak hours especially. Quenching the idea with the suburban loop seems abit more realistic imo but outside members of doncaster itself (especially around westfield s/c) wont benifit from this aswell well it, also most people will be displeased with the fact they will need to catch a comnection to another train before their commute to the city begins on an already crowded train. During alot of the rail crossing removal on the lilydale line my partner frequently struggled to find a quick route in the city and actually found that departing from ringwood via bus directly to the city only to connect to a tram was faster than people connecting via the buses in place for the rail removal projects, stating they were not crowded and were a faster service there and back than a train would of ever been, but I can see in future with higher volumes of people using a bus wouldnt be able to adequately service the people of doncaster aswell as a train would, the frequency of buses would need to be substantial.
The first planned line through Doncaster was the Warrandyte line via Templestowe. It was abandoned. The best route would be from Box Hill station building a tunnel heading off north to underground stations at Box Hill North, Doncaster, Templestowe and terminating at Warrandyte. It would eleviate the need for building a line through housing, parklands and Industrial buildings. Doncaster should not be the terminus though as we need to look at the needs of residents in suburbs beyond Doncaster also.
I totally agree. Any rail through Doncaster should aim to better connect places to DONCASTER (or other nearby transit hubs such as Box Hill) instead of the city.
The Melbourne Metro should have been made a quad tunnel rather than a twin. It would have allowed capacity for lines from Donvale, Warrendyte, Rowville, Dandenong Sth, Airport, Greenvale, and Werribee. That is Donvale-VicSt-DoncST-Greythorn-Bulleen-BoukeRd-ChandlerHwy-VicPark-(tunnel under JohnstonSt)Fitzroy-Carlton-University-FlindersSt Warrendyte-Stocklands@ThePines-Templestowe-LwrTemplestowe-ManninghamRd(connection to circle)-Bulleen-(then as Donvale line) Rowville-JellsRd-Mulgrave-MonashUni-Huntingdale-WarrigalRd-Ormond-Gardenvale(then Sandringham line to SthYarra, then Metro to city) Dandenong Sth-Keysborough-SpringvaleSth DingleyVil-MoorabbinAP-Cheltenham-Blackrock-Sandringham(then Sandringham line to Sth Yarra then Metro) Airport-Sunshine(then express to city) Greenvale-Attwood-Tullamarine-AirportWSC-Niddrie-EssWest-HPSC-VicUni-FlemmingtonRC-ShowGround-Newmarket-Kensington(then Metro to city) Werribee line to Newport(tunnel to PortMelb then under old PM line to FlindersSt) But I'm a dreamer
I lived in Adelaide in the North East and had access to the Oban system one of only two in the world. This is a brilliant idea that acts as a fast track for busses (70 k/h) into the city. Its a concrete track on piles which means it doesn't require major earth works and can easily follow river banks and roads. You can actually catch your bus at you local stop and travel all the way into the city in comfort. I cant understand why this is not been taken up in more locations.
The population of Adelaide is around 1.4 million the population of Melbourne is just over 5 million. A bus service doesn't come close to the number of people a train service can move
I reckon Doncaster rail should be rolled in with MM2. Instead of linking to Clifton Hill, emerge out into the median of the Freeway and onto Doncaster East. You lose benefit to Mernda line (and maybe Werribee) but then people could take the train from Doncaster to Fitzroy, Parkville, SoCro, Fisherman’s Bend, Newport and perhaps onto a retrofitted Laverton loop on driverless Alstrom light-metro like the RÉM (and Sydney Metro and perhaps SRL?)
0:34 wait take a look at this map first WHY IS FLINDERS STREET AT TEH BOTTOM LEFT CORNER AND NOW KEW AND EAST KEW IS AT THE MIDDLE AND WHERE IS BELGRAVE
I always found their idea of building a dedicated busway a bit stupid. If you have room for a bus, then you have room for a train, so just build a train line between the eastern freeway and Doncaster Park & Ride. It is crazy that they aren't doing this. I think in the 2014 business study, they wanted the South Morang (now Mernda) line to be re-routed via an underground tunnel to Flagstaff first, due to concerns about the frequency of the service, but that always seemed like a poor excuse to me. If capacity is that big of an issue, just operate it as a shuttle train to Victoria Park and let people change to another train there. I'm sure most people will take that over a bus. Just stop talking and start building and let the capacity issues be sorted out later. There are many ways it can be improved, including a flyover at Clifton Hill, which I'm still not sure why it hasn't been done or just better signaling in general allowing trains to run closer together.
I wish they could extend the route 48 tram to connect with westfield doncaster, and give it a dedicated lane. the tram already serve majority of the suburbs that would have benefited from the train line anyways but could really use some speed up. With that said I'd much rather a train line than an wider M3, it's already a nuisance as it is.
I don't live in St Kilda anymore but I think that the 16 should come turn into Grey Street St Kilda are and go up Inkerman Street to Malvern station then through 2 Cotham Road
Doncaster is being tinkered with, At the moment Melbourne's Population is around 5.1 Million in about 10 years from now it will be about 7 Million it could be more depending on Immigration, By 2040 Melbourne will be 10 or 11 Million people, its a no brainer to build a Metro style train stations to Doncaster, Westfield shopping town, East Doncaster, and maybe in the future take the line to North Ringwood and beyond. Bus services have a limit. Get on with the Job and make them do it.
It will be interesting if the outer suburban rail loop includes Doncaster. Hopefully it does although that will mean Doncaster East and Donvale will need stations too
I think a DLR light rail system similar to Londons would work better for Manningham. Can utilise the freeway median and the median up Doncaster Road terminating underground at Doncaster shopping town
Yet again feasibility studies never end. I have never seen the point of large median strips in freeways for which you have now given an answer. I have also seen this in effect in Perth and it works very well. Considering the recent large development in the old Doncaster golf course a train line would work well. It would also cut traffic congestion at Doncaster road which can be painful almost every day.
Yer the train lines in Perth that run along the Mitchell and Kwinana Fwys are pretty efficient. Move a lot of people and quickly. Trains to Mandurah which is equivalent distance to Geelong , take 45 mins
It's ridiculous the amount of building approvals for high rise apartments have occurred in Doncaster, on the vague notion of a rail line to the city. It's BS. None of this should ever have been allowed. They caused this issue to themselves. Doncaster is a mess. One of the most unliveable areas of Melbourne. And no improvement in sight. It also doesn't deserve a rail line, you have one at Box Hill and one at Greensborough. A rail link down the freeway would serve legitimately no one. Stations at the freeway would feed no residents. And at Doncaster you would have no rail parking because the area is way too developed. Next you'd stop all the buses running down the freeway to avoid competition with the rail line. I think a light rail tram route would work much better, but it would need to go much further then Doncaster.
Rowville's one of the hardest areas logistically. Impenetrable parkland to the south, industrial areas to the west, and houses upon houses upon houses to skirt/navigate around. A tram route along the median strip of Wellington Rd, maybe starting around Huntingdale, would be the most feasible. But even that would be a colossal project
BRTs can be heavy lift and would probably be sufficient. Especially if provision was made to make the BRT corridor upgradeable to LRT in the long term. So long as there is good interchange options to the rail network, and there is sufficient street capacity for busses at the destination. Adding yet more branch lines to the heavy rail network seems like a bad solution. The interchange to the SRL would be critical.
Having lived in Doncaster in 2015, I can tell you the buses aren't that great. I would have definitely liked a train to the city or even a tram to box hill!
if you need a dedicated bus route and facilities... it shouldn't be a bus. Just more petrol vehicles requiring yet more roads. That said.. having lived in Doncaster East for many years and traversing from South of Box Hill, through to DE or Shopping town, Box hill serves as a sufficient Train hub from the CBD, though a tram line would be much better suited to the volumes going from Box Hill to Doncaster.. it just needs a lick of paint and some TLC
The problem is a political one. The Liberal Party prefers freeways. The Labor Party isn't going to spend vast amounts of money that will only benefit a safe Liberal seat.
Funny you should say that do some research, Henry Bolte wanted to build a train line to Melbourne Airport at the massive cost of 7 million dollars but was voted down by the Labor Party and the Nationals. Look it up the train line would have been open from the day Melbourne Airport was open. Freeway preference is not limited to any party.
Its purely political NOW and two very good examples of politically morivated RAIL big projects are the SRL from Cheltenham to Box Hill (ALL MARGINAL ELECTORATES SERVED) and the METRO RAIL TUNNEL TO SERVE ALP/GREENS INNER CIRY ELECTORATES. Oh and the NEL is going via Bulleen because if it cut through Eltham as originally planned to Ringwood, it will affect MARGINAL ELTHAM ELECTORATE. The NEL consultaition website was riddled with stooge accounts oushing for the Bulleen route and those accounts bullied other contributers to the point they retaliated and were banned from the site.
@@Bobman84100%. It’s amazing how many on the Left either have amnesia or are so embarrassed they can’t admit it. It was also Labor, the only party in recent history that singled a major trunk line to a major growing regional city to save money rather than widen cuttings.
The main impediment is that there has not been any growth (and there will not be) beyond East Doncaster as it is all woodland and forest. Therefore, unless Doncaster's population density is increased (especially along Doncaster Road), forget about a train
the first electric tram line in the southern hemisphere was built along Tram Rd and Station St between Doncaster and Box Hill, but it wasn't particularly successful and sadly closed. if it was retained, I could see it getting quite a few passengers today
I think there should have been a railway line along Eastern Fwy / Eastlink all the way to Dandenong, with Heatherdale being the 'hub' station. For those saying it would have cost too much, how much has the freeway/tollway cost you? And keep costing you for decades to come, far more than it originally cost to build so the private operators can bend you over and take a massive profit and give it to shareholders that just happens to include a bunch politicians on whose watch this happened. If they'd done the railway line at the same time, it would have been cost effective but not now. If they'd had any forethought whatsoever and done this, they could have also extended the Glen Waverley line out the Rowville and meet up with the Eastlink line along the way. Oh well, they can keep using their cars on clogged up roads because they don't have much choice. Too bad, so sad.
Doncaster UK has a rich railway heritage and a major station on the East Coast Mainline, a shamethe tradition wasn't carried over. Your Doncaster looks a lot nicer than ours, I've lived here 58 years and can confirm it's a dump and getting worse as the criminals take over.
Doncaster needs a railway, but I don't think a glorified shuttle service to the centre of Melbourne, or even one travelling in the direction of the cbd, is the most valuable option. Many of the areas around Doncaster have access to rapid transit direct to the city, whether it be the light rail 109 or 48 tram routes (which travels along Doncaster Rd, so an extension to even the Park+Ride may be an acceptable alternative to an entirely new light or heavy rail project that needs to grapple with the difficult topograhy of the area) and all suburbs around Doncaster all the way to the shopping centre itself enjoy readily available BRT. Not to mention the Eastern Freeway splits into two paths directly into the inner city, and as this piece of infrastructure is improved so too can the effectiveness of existing transport options. Instead, a Doncaster railway should aim to better connect the suburbs around Doncaster, essentially travelling all directions but West toward the city, as this is an option sorely lacking in the area, with most infrastructure already heading to the heart of the city.
Light rail or trains definately not busses, and yes it should go ahead, however the rapidly growing western suburbs desperately need transport infrastructure before Doncaster gets More transport!
As someone who grew up in the area and is now raising a family in the area, the lack of train is astounding.
Yet the government could afford $14 billion for the Metro Tunnel, which only marginally improves existing lines
"This is a proposal about Doncaster rail"
"Victoria, this the seventh time in a row you've proposed Doncaster rail"
Well done Philip having grown up in Blackburn south and now living in Doncaster East for 30 years your look back into the history of the proposed railway was fascinating. I can still remember when Canterbury road Blackburn south was dirt.
Whilst they are deciding on what train service to introduce, extend the route 48 from Kew to Tunstall Square along Doncaster rd. At the same time carry out a stop rationalisation on the route 48, possibly rerouting it so that travel to the city is faster (maybe along Victoria Street).
It does need a train, and it should go up the Eastern Fwy, like in Perth.
We're building our third through to Ellenbrook it's 21km long has 3 tunnels, 5 stations, around 5km of elevated rail through Whiteman Park and is being engineered for trains to travel at 130kp/h it'll connect with the Airport/Midland line at Bayswater
@@soulsphere9242 one of the
proposals was continue in tunnel under Fitzroy up Smith or Brunswick St with a station there and join the City Loop at Parliament. To relieve that stretch of surface line.
From Perth, trust me it's not as good as an idea everyone thought it was
@@Coolsomeone234 Why not?
@@qlder0284 hard to access, lack of density and development around it
It is inevitable that Doncaster will need a train line one day! The bus service cannot be the only answer to mass transit
It's already getting one. It's in the second phase of SRL.
@@fatheranthony4popethat’s efficient. Swap to another line and wait for next train. Want to know how many will climb in the car in their driveway with that. Most. And the ‘second’ SRL. That’s as pie in the sky as the 17 other proposals for Doncaster but hold that thought. We might not be massively in debt by that time and just afford it.
@@fatheranthony4pope That's insufficient. The SRL will only link Doncaster Shoppingtown to Box Hill, all the areas East of that will be ignored. And having to link to another train line is highly time consuming during peak hour
Agreed, the proposed bus will still terminate at Hoddle Street, so they'd still be stuck in traffic from there all the way to the CBD.
Part of the issue is that while the bus is super quick to get to Collingwood (faster than a train at many times) it then crawls into the city. Melbourne City Council wants a proper busway along Lonsdale - if you had a proper separated lane along Hoddle, Vic Pde and Lonsdale with some light priority, you would get a good result.
From memory the Doncaster Rail Study flagged the problem of the Clifton Hill group's capacity, which can only be fixed with MM2 I think
MM2 is a cross city proposal, this is a proposal to head to the city.
Train tunnel via North Richmond and Kew. Kee is currently only served by trams and would benefit from a heavy rail link. Plus this is the most direct route to Donny
Totally agree with this route but I'd extend it even further. My thoughts are the following
Ringwood Airport.
Essentially Melb city council's MM3 proposal, but obviously will require a lot of tunnelling which people won't be a fan of.
You mean “Kew” not “Kee” right?
@@RebellionWarrior yes Kew, not Kee. Typing comments on a phone is great 😂
Use to play along the creek in Bulleen where the freeway now sits, remember my folks talking about a possible rail project so we moved in the early 70's. There were still some Orchards opposite Ayre st along High St, better times back then.
I live in Doncaster, although I am closer to The Pines than Doncaster Shopping Town. The traffic in Eastern Freeway is actually not as bad as the media wants you to think. The worst I’ve ever experienced is probably a 10-15 minutes delay from Melbourne CBD to Doncaster, and the heavy traffic is mainly just causing slow speed but not much stalling. The Monash Freeway is definitely 10× worse during peak hours. It took us over an hour to get from Mount Waverley to Pakenham one Friday evening. And yes, that’s despite having an Alt Princes Highway route AND a train line that’s literally just South of the Freeway running parallel to it!
Although I think the toll road that starts just after Doncaster East is probably why. Eastern Freeway might actually be worse if Eastlink was free
Yeah, the major congestion tends to happen around Bulleen Rd and the Hoddle St/ Alexandra Ave exits. Other than that, it is mostly free flowing unless there has been an accident.
But if you're commuting by bus then the bottleneck happens after the bus enters Hoddle Street. Going from there to the CBD during peak hour often takes longer than going from the Pines to Hoddle Street.
Oh Australia, I was about to bloody say, as Doncaster s on the East Coast Main line (UK)
Same lol
Looks like there are a couple around! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doncaster_(disambiguation)
They should never have closed the outer rail. This may have been the link to Doncaster. As for the link between Doncaster and Box Hill, well we did have trams going between the two suburbs. This was the first electrified Tram route in Melbourne. "The First Electric Road" A History of the Box Hill and Doncaster tramway by Robert Green.
And with the growth of "light rail" it wouldn't be impossible for the tram to go there. Although with the house building the optimal routes have already been built over. The remaining two roads are very steep. Although Seattle has shown the way with an elevated tram from the airport to the city and now to beyond it.
There was a electric tram that went to Doncaster. This started in 1886 and was bulit from land owners to make there land more interesting. This tram ran until 1900. Later about 1925 the MMTB had a plan for a tram from Doncaster to the city. This tram route wasn't bulit.
They have apparently proposed to build a line along there as a part of the Metro Tunnel 2 project which apparently will soon commence construction and is seemingly more likely to happen compared to the suburban rail loop.
Perhaps another alternative is extending the tram that runs to North Balwyn Route 48.
Given that already runs on Doncaster Road, it could easily be extended to Westfield Doncaster heading up the hill from the freeway.
I clicked on this story because I thought "I've been to Doncaster many times by train". I was thinking of the original Doncaster in Yorkshire, England, which an important junction on the East Coast Main Line between London and Edinburgh. I didn't know there was a Doncaster in Australia.
Haha easy mistake to make! If it's any consolation, I didn't realise there was a Doncaster in the UK until about 10 years ago
Almost every suburb in Melbourne that does not have an Indigenous name, shares the name of a town or county in the UK. Suburbs in Melbourne for example; Thornbury, Cranbourne, Brighton, Coventry, Tottenham, Windsor & Woodstock. Some of these suburbs were named after their founders though.
I clicked because I wanted to know which Doncaster the video was about.
@@mickanvonfootscraymarket5520 Thought this was about Melbourne in the UK.
@@who-gives-a-toss_Bear there's a Melbourne in the UK? I've heard it all now.
There was a another proposal for a railway from Canterbury to Doncaster via Balwyn in the 1890s. Parts of this reserve still exist as Shrublands Creek Reserve and John August Reserve in Canterbury, Iramoo St in Balwyn and a series of connected parks from Ridgway Park to Gallery Chain Extension Park in Mont Albert. You can also see the infill of some unusually shaped blocks just north of Yarrbat Ave and at the end of Pryton Ct in Balwyn.
Avid AFL fans would say that about VFL Park they wished that tram would be at the extension of the up the Wellington road North Rd
Great video! Doncaster is the number one zombie project for time passed since first proposed. To think that even the Outer Circle, and Rosstown railways got built. Even if they both never fulfilled their intended purpose. There will be no further action on Doncaster rail anytime soon. What with Level Crossing Removal program, Airport Rail and Metro Tunnel. Electrifying the line to Geelong is another zombie project.
The Rowville train line says, allow me to introduce myself. Rowville would be a lot easier to build.
@@smedleyfarnsworth263 Good point. Forgot about Rowville. Proposed to serve the former VFL park/Waverley Park, as well as Rowville. Since that facility closed to AFL matches, probably another reason for putting Rowville line on the back burner.
@@railtrolley The surrounding suburbs are still there and growing. I would take the Rowville line right through to Ferntree Gully on the Belgrave line and form a loop.
Sadly there are several rail projects in vic that would get priority before a doncaster rail line. Given its access to the eastern fway and regular bus service, a railway i believe is now low priority.
Should investigate the proposed Rowville line as well..:)
Just found this channel. Fantastic stuff!
As we are playing fantasies....
Modern Tram (fewer stops than existing lines) from Box Hill, via Doncaster, Heidelburg, Bell St, join existing tram around Essendon, on to the airport. This links multiple rail lines across north of the city, great for access to the airport. Gets very difficult between Bell St & joining tram route 59 at Essendon airport, but brighter minds could figure that out. 59 Continues to the airport too.
Most people think about the travellers, but such a route will help workers a lot.
Why not just run a fast limited stop light rail up the eastern freeway reservation like they were going to with the rail then surface up the hill to Doncaster. Better than stop start via Box Hill
I'm late to the party but this is the best 4 minutes with my morning coffee 😁. Really enjoy your channel!
That's lovely to hear, thank you and glad you enjoyed it!
ignore the bees! 😅
I went to school in this area and would have benefited heavily from having the Doncaster/Bulleen rail!
It would take me longer than an hour from Northcote every morning, via tram, train and bus.
If you’re going to build a train line to Doncaster it’s got to go to Westfield Doncaster otherwise there is no point having it
It's good to know that there is at least reasonably good public transport by way of regular buses into the city at the "Doncaster Park & Ride" open air terminal. Hope they will bring the trains to Doncaster and sneak the line under ground with a station in Westfiled Shoppo. Can't wait for the SRL loop unless the start with an interim Box hill-Doncaster section first.
If you have been to South Morang's Westfield, the train station isn't quite underground, but it's conveniently tucked away. The same setup could absolutely work at Doncaster if they were to either run the line up from Vic park or Box Hill.
My cousins in Doncaster, Sth Yorkshire will find this amusing, as mentioned by the person below. Last time i used it was in 1979.
To use the median strip of the eastern freeway for more lanes is just criminal. It's such a perfect opportunity to some form of mass transit.
lived in kew in mid 80s. good times. train would have been nice but in reality a 20-25 minute tram ride into city is all it took, on old 48 tram.
Kew had a rail line. It stopped at the now headquarters of Vicroads just south of Kew Junction
It DOES need a train line…however the main reason why there isn’t one is because Ventura has the monopoly on transport out in the North East, buying out and shelving all ideas for a rail link to the city.
This is why the closest Doncaster will get to having a rail service will be the suburban rail loop, mentioned, which will connect Box Hill to Doncaster and then on Heidelberg.
Dedicated busway from Doncaster Park and Ride and the soon to open Bulleen park and ride into the CBD makes the most sense, an extension of the D.A.R.T system
4:19 I think a train route coming off the hurst bridge line would work with a station at heildberg south
When the freeway was being built, the Country Roads Board, now VicRoads, had a model diorama on display of the completed freeway on the NW cnr of Belford and Willsmere Rds.
It was about 3 metres long. It featured two tram lines up the centre median, all the way to Doncaster. It didnt go ahead because of short sighted planning, Doncaster still had Orchards and Cows then. It was to be an express service, so the demand just wasnt there in the early 70s
The model on display, featured triple carriage mustard colored trams, before trams were mustard colored. So trams, never trains.
That's very interesting, thank you! Do you know if there are any records or photos of this?
An underground station under the existing road junction at Doncaster Hill aka where the shopping centre and all the apartments are located (either built or planned to be built) may be feasible if it connects to Box Hill i.e. the shortest train route. Anything between Doncaster Hill and the CBD, using the middle of the Eastern freeway for a rail track only makes sense if no intervening stations are built along the way - insufficient population density and where does one park to access a station even if it was built?
As Balwyn and Fairfield are already adequately served, the train could run direct from Doncaster Road until the inner suburbs where it would either run to the city via the Clifton Hill Group or a new tunnel.
For now however given the post Covid realities, BRT is probably the best we can hope for. A properly constructed BRT (segregated from road traffic a la Brisbane) could be quite the go.
Even a tram service from westfield shopping center to box hill centeral via tram road. But the need to go to the city is also a service trams couldnt service adequately. Considering the 2 adjacent lines (lilydale/hurstbridge) proximity to the doncaster region I always believed that this was the reason it stays a zombie that they dont want to ad another service inbetween the 2 lines, for people living in the area its a hard geographic place to navigate during peak hours especially. Quenching the idea with the suburban loop seems abit more realistic imo but outside members of doncaster itself (especially around westfield s/c) wont benifit from this aswell well it, also most people will be displeased with the fact they will need to catch a comnection to another train before their commute to the city begins on an already crowded train. During alot of the rail crossing removal on the lilydale line my partner frequently struggled to find a quick route in the city and actually found that departing from ringwood via bus directly to the city only to connect to a tram was faster than people connecting via the buses in place for the rail removal projects, stating they were not crowded and were a faster service there and back than a train would of ever been, but I can see in future with higher volumes of people using a bus wouldnt be able to adequately service the people of doncaster aswell as a train would, the frequency of buses would need to be substantial.
0:10 Melbourne's Greatest Zombie Project has to be Airport Rail, Right?
@@Flarezap Yes, But it's been discussed for 50+ Years.
Would definitely be up there, but Doncaster Rail has been proposed for over 110 years! So I'd put it at the top of my list
@@philipmallis Yeah that's fair enough.
Worth noting that Hitachi train destination rolls have East Doncaster on them.
@@paulorocky The Hitachi trains have a few zombie projects on their roll signs. Airport rail link being one of them.
The first planned line through Doncaster was the Warrandyte line via Templestowe. It was abandoned.
The best route would be from Box Hill station building a tunnel heading off north to underground stations at Box Hill North, Doncaster, Templestowe and terminating at Warrandyte. It would eleviate the need for building a line through housing, parklands and Industrial buildings. Doncaster should not be the terminus though as we need to look at the needs of residents in suburbs beyond Doncaster also.
I totally agree. Any rail through Doncaster should aim to better connect places to DONCASTER (or other nearby transit hubs such as Box Hill) instead of the city.
The Melbourne Metro should have been made a quad tunnel rather than a twin.
It would have allowed capacity for lines from Donvale, Warrendyte, Rowville, Dandenong Sth, Airport, Greenvale, and Werribee.
That is Donvale-VicSt-DoncST-Greythorn-Bulleen-BoukeRd-ChandlerHwy-VicPark-(tunnel under JohnstonSt)Fitzroy-Carlton-University-FlindersSt
Warrendyte-Stocklands@ThePines-Templestowe-LwrTemplestowe-ManninghamRd(connection to circle)-Bulleen-(then as Donvale line)
Rowville-JellsRd-Mulgrave-MonashUni-Huntingdale-WarrigalRd-Ormond-Gardenvale(then Sandringham line to SthYarra, then Metro to city)
Dandenong Sth-Keysborough-SpringvaleSth DingleyVil-MoorabbinAP-Cheltenham-Blackrock-Sandringham(then Sandringham line to Sth Yarra then Metro)
Airport-Sunshine(then express to city)
Greenvale-Attwood-Tullamarine-AirportWSC-Niddrie-EssWest-HPSC-VicUni-FlemmingtonRC-ShowGround-Newmarket-Kensington(then Metro to city)
Werribee line to Newport(tunnel to PortMelb then under old PM line to FlindersSt)
But I'm a dreamer
I lived in Adelaide in the North East and had access to the Oban system one of only two in the world. This is a brilliant idea that acts as a fast track for busses (70 k/h) into the city. Its a concrete track on piles which means it doesn't require major earth works and can easily follow river banks and roads. You can actually catch your bus at you local stop and travel all the way into the city in comfort. I cant understand why this is not been taken up in more locations.
The population of Adelaide is around 1.4 million the population of Melbourne is just over 5 million. A bus service doesn't come close to the number of people a train service can move
That's awesome!!
Most likely because Doncaster is full of rich people who would rather drive in their expensive cars.
I reckon Doncaster rail should be rolled in with MM2. Instead of linking to Clifton Hill, emerge out into the median of the Freeway and onto Doncaster East. You lose benefit to Mernda line (and maybe Werribee) but then people could take the train from Doncaster to Fitzroy, Parkville, SoCro, Fisherman’s Bend, Newport and perhaps onto a retrofitted Laverton loop on driverless Alstrom light-metro like the RÉM (and Sydney Metro and perhaps SRL?)
0:34 wait take a look at this map first WHY IS FLINDERS STREET AT TEH BOTTOM LEFT CORNER AND NOW KEW AND EAST KEW IS AT THE MIDDLE AND WHERE IS BELGRAVE
yes it needs it and other areas as well but the ring route would be a good start
I always found their idea of building a dedicated busway a bit stupid. If you have room for a bus, then you have room for a train, so just build a train line between the eastern freeway and Doncaster Park & Ride. It is crazy that they aren't doing this. I think in the 2014 business study, they wanted the South Morang (now Mernda) line to be re-routed via an underground tunnel to Flagstaff first, due to concerns about the frequency of the service, but that always seemed like a poor excuse to me. If capacity is that big of an issue, just operate it as a shuttle train to Victoria Park and let people change to another train there. I'm sure most people will take that over a bus. Just stop talking and start building and let the capacity issues be sorted out later. There are many ways it can be improved, including a flyover at Clifton Hill, which I'm still not sure why it hasn't been done or just better signaling in general allowing trains to run closer together.
Another great video!
Looking froward to the video about the Kew line.
Looking at that traffic on the freeway it absolutely needs a train.
I wish they could extend the route 48 tram to connect with westfield doncaster, and give it a dedicated lane. the tram already serve majority of the suburbs that would have benefited from the train line anyways but could really use some speed up. With that said I'd much rather a train line than an wider M3, it's already a nuisance as it is.
I don't live in St Kilda anymore but I think that the 16 should come turn into Grey Street St Kilda are and go up Inkerman Street to Malvern station then through 2 Cotham Road
Doncaster is being tinkered with, At the moment Melbourne's Population is around 5.1 Million in about 10 years from now it will be about 7 Million it could be more depending on Immigration, By 2040 Melbourne will be 10 or 11 Million people, its a no brainer to build a Metro style train stations to Doncaster, Westfield shopping town, East Doncaster, and maybe in the future take the line to North Ringwood and beyond. Bus services have a limit. Get on with the Job and make them do it.
Looks like we need to stop immigration...you sound like you think 10 million people is acceptable? Wtf lol ..they can barely keep the power on now
also, the busses really slow down more around clifton hill, which the busway doesn't address
I live in Doncaster (England) this video confused me for a good few minutes
I have made my own fantasy railway lines where I rerouted the Lilydale line to split at Camberwell to reach Doncaster.
It will be interesting if the outer suburban rail loop includes Doncaster. Hopefully it does although that will mean Doncaster East and Donvale will need stations too
SRL as currently proposed will include Doncaster
great vid Philip!
I think a DLR light rail system similar to Londons would work better for Manningham. Can utilise the freeway median and the median up Doncaster Road terminating underground at Doncaster shopping town
Yet again feasibility studies never end. I have never seen the point of large median strips in freeways for which you have now given an answer. I have also seen this in effect in Perth and it works very well. Considering the recent large development in the old Doncaster golf course a train line would work well. It would also cut traffic congestion at Doncaster road which can be painful almost every day.
Yer the train lines in Perth that run along the Mitchell and Kwinana Fwys are pretty efficient. Move a lot of people and quickly. Trains to Mandurah which is equivalent distance to Geelong , take 45 mins
Love your videos
Strange we have a train to Stoney Point but no train to Mornington even tho there is a train line to there.
It's ridiculous the amount of building approvals for high rise apartments have occurred in Doncaster, on the vague notion of a rail line to the city. It's BS. None of this should ever have been allowed. They caused this issue to themselves. Doncaster is a mess. One of the most unliveable areas of Melbourne. And no improvement in sight. It also doesn't deserve a rail line, you have one at Box Hill and one at Greensborough. A rail link down the freeway would serve legitimately no one. Stations at the freeway would feed no residents. And at Doncaster you would have no rail parking because the area is way too developed. Next you'd stop all the buses running down the freeway to avoid competition with the rail line.
I think a light rail tram route would work much better, but it would need to go much further then Doncaster.
I live in Rowville and I think the Rowville Line is number two zombie project in Melbourne.
Rowville's one of the hardest areas logistically. Impenetrable parkland to the south, industrial areas to the west, and houses upon houses upon houses to skirt/navigate around. A tram route along the median strip of Wellington Rd, maybe starting around Huntingdale, would be the most feasible. But even that would be a colossal project
BRTs can be heavy lift and would probably be sufficient. Especially if provision was made to make the BRT corridor upgradeable to LRT in the long term. So long as there is good interchange options to the rail network, and there is sufficient street capacity for busses at the destination.
Adding yet more branch lines to the heavy rail network seems like a bad solution.
The interchange to the SRL would be critical.
I walked to Doncaster shopping centre from Blackburn its about a 6km walk
A Brisbane-style BRT system would be sufficient, if it had genuine 24/7 right of way and bridges/tunnels across intersections.
Brisbane's buses are congested on the SE Busway and our plan is to build more buses. It was actually designed for light rail.
Turning freeway-lanes in to railways would make sense everywhere, not just to doncaster...
Having lived in Doncaster in 2015, I can tell you the buses aren't that great. I would have definitely liked a train to the city or even a tram to box hill!
if you need a dedicated bus route and facilities... it shouldn't be a bus. Just more petrol vehicles requiring yet more roads. That said.. having lived in Doncaster East for many years and traversing from South of Box Hill, through to DE or Shopping town, Box hill serves as a sufficient Train hub from the CBD, though a tram line would be much better suited to the volumes going from Box Hill to Doncaster.. it just needs a lick of paint and some TLC
I want to know why there isn't a train line from Frankston to Ringwood along the Eastlink Tollway.
Erm. I clicked on this video thinking this was about Doncaster in England. I didn’t even know there was another Doncaster in Melbourne. Lol
The problem is a political one. The Liberal Party prefers freeways. The Labor Party isn't going to spend vast amounts of money that will only benefit a safe Liberal seat.
Funny you should say that do some research, Henry Bolte wanted to build a train line to Melbourne Airport at the massive cost of 7 million dollars but was voted down by the Labor Party and the Nationals. Look it up the train line would have been open from the day Melbourne Airport was open. Freeway preference is not limited to any party.
The Labor party were the ones who sold off the entire Doncaster rail reservation.
Not a safe liberal seat no more. Labor territory
Its purely political NOW and two very good examples of politically morivated RAIL big projects are the SRL from Cheltenham to Box Hill (ALL MARGINAL ELECTORATES SERVED) and the METRO RAIL TUNNEL TO SERVE ALP/GREENS INNER CIRY ELECTORATES.
Oh and the NEL is going via Bulleen because if it cut through Eltham as originally planned to Ringwood, it will affect MARGINAL ELTHAM ELECTORATE.
The NEL consultaition website was riddled with stooge accounts oushing for the Bulleen route and those accounts bullied other contributers to the point they retaliated and were banned from the site.
@@Bobman84100%. It’s amazing how many on the Left either have amnesia or are so embarrassed they can’t admit it. It was also Labor, the only party in recent history that singled a major trunk line to a major growing regional city to save money rather than widen cuttings.
Top video. I'll mull on this at least for a while.
The main impediment is that there has not been any growth (and there will not be) beyond East Doncaster as it is all woodland and forest. Therefore, unless Doncaster's population density is increased (especially along Doncaster Road), forget about a train
I never knew there was a Doncaster in Australia.
Wouldn't a spur route off the Lilydale Belgrave line make more sense? Unless they want to serve Kew and Balwyn.
SRL will make it happen, maybe in three decades, if it ever happens.........
the busway (obahn) sounds like the most viable option .
Do you know the related story of tram road in Doncaster?
the first electric tram line in the southern hemisphere was built along Tram Rd and Station St between Doncaster and Box Hill, but it wasn't particularly successful and sadly closed. if it was retained, I could see it getting quite a few passengers today
If srl happens and Doncaster does get an srl station a railway line would become easier at least politically
I think there should have been a railway line along Eastern Fwy / Eastlink all the way to Dandenong, with Heatherdale being the 'hub' station. For those saying it would have cost too much, how much has the freeway/tollway cost you? And keep costing you for decades to come, far more than it originally cost to build so the private operators can bend you over and take a massive profit and give it to shareholders that just happens to include a bunch politicians on whose watch this happened. If they'd done the railway line at the same time, it would have been cost effective but not now. If they'd had any forethought whatsoever and done this, they could have also extended the Glen Waverley line out the Rowville and meet up with the Eastlink line along the way. Oh well, they can keep using their cars on clogged up roads because they don't have much choice. Too bad, so sad.
At Heidelberg it can change to Doncaster service
Doncaster UK has a rich railway heritage and a major station on the East Coast Mainline, a shamethe tradition wasn't carried over. Your Doncaster looks a lot nicer than ours, I've lived here 58 years and can confirm it's a dump and getting worse as the criminals take over.
They should put it from Vic Park and run it in the middle of the freeway
The bigger question: Why do we still not have the Fender Doncaster?
This sounds similar to the Southland Station situation. Obviously the station happened.
what about a railway to the airport?
Don't worry about the transport, let's sort out the Doncaster bee situation first!
Did you know that you can't get a train to Melbourne either?
52°49'24.1"N, 1°25'42.7"W
oml Florida's Melbourne?
Would be an utter waste of money now that SRL-East is being built.
I get off at Box Hill and catch a bus from there
A BRT line down the Eastern Freeway and the Suburban Rail Loop should give Doncaster and surrounding areas good public transport connectivity.
Not an expensive railway on the Eastern Freeway! We need a, uh, busway?
The 1979 plan was the best
So go to box Hill and get the bus
Will large number of people still live in Doncaster in 100yrs time? Then build a railway.
We will have flying cars before this ever happens.
Doncaster needs a railway, but I don't think a glorified shuttle service to the centre of Melbourne, or even one travelling in the direction of the cbd, is the most valuable option. Many of the areas around Doncaster have access to rapid transit direct to the city, whether it be the light rail 109 or 48 tram routes (which travels along Doncaster Rd, so an extension to even the Park+Ride may be an acceptable alternative to an entirely new light or heavy rail project that needs to grapple with the difficult topograhy of the area) and all suburbs around Doncaster all the way to the shopping centre itself enjoy readily available BRT. Not to mention the Eastern Freeway splits into two paths directly into the inner city, and as this piece of infrastructure is improved so too can the effectiveness of existing transport options. Instead, a Doncaster railway should aim to better connect the suburbs around Doncaster, essentially travelling all directions but West toward the city, as this is an option sorely lacking in the area, with most infrastructure already heading to the heart of the city.
That walk bridge at 3 mins looks terrifying to cross ..low side rails ...looks like a suicide spot candidate .should have a cage
Light rail or trains definately not busses, and yes it should go ahead, however the rapidly growing western suburbs desperately need transport infrastructure before Doncaster gets More transport!