Principles and Process: Open Letter on Treaty Bill

When over 400 church leaders presented an open letter on the Treaty Principles bill, theologian and Treaty scholar Dr Alistair Reese added his name to the list - with a caveat. He chats to Andrew Urquhart about his hopes for due process and open debate on the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, and how Christians can take their place in the conversation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
‼ SOCIALS ‼
▶ Follow us on INSTAGRAM!
/ nz.rhema
/ rhemabreakfastnz
▶ Visit our WEBSITE! www.rhema.co.n...
▶ Join our FACEBOOK Page to engage with us! / nzrhema
Support Rhema: donate.rhemame...
Would you like to pray for others or have a prayer request? 🙏
Our Prayer Wall: www.rhema.co.n...
To contact the studio
Email: [e-mail]
Phone: [phone]
(NZ) Text: 8168 with the keyword: RHEMA

[@rogerevans7119]

majority of citizens have been shut out of any discussion for the last 50 years because the legal interpretation of the Treaty has been exclusively in the hands of a Tribunal, access to which is limited to those of a specific ethnicity. We need to have an open conversation but most avenues are closed to most of us. Do you have another suggestion for an open forum in which ALL of us as Kiwis can have an active input?

[@firstkings99]

You have fallen into the trap again. The bill is not about the Treaty it is about the Treaty Principles - whatever they are and THAT is the nub of the problem.

[@unemployedrocketsurgeon1124]

I support democratic principles and challenge race based politics. I’m not comfortable being called a racist for supporting the concept of ‘One Kiwi, one vote’.
As Kiwis we’ve all been supportive of "affirmative action" to correct the historical imbalance economically and with jobs, there’s a lot of work (& money) that’s gone into correcting the wrongs that have been done in the past, but where does it stop? Very simple concepts to get ones head around, but apparently not simple for this bloke.

[@geoffstokes]

The church needs to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's where true unity is found. Politicing won't cut it

[@shereerihari2691]

I feel Christian leaders have dropped the ball in a huge way by signing this letter. Surely the answer to issues surrounding the Treaty of Waitangi is the Gospel of Jesus Christ being preached and lived out by born again believers in our nation? That is where the Church leaders' focus should be surely?

[@davethewave7248]

The historical fact is our country moved on from the treaty. The treaty should be historicized/ contextualized to its time and place, a compact between most chiefs and the British Crown whereby chiefs ceded [the right of] sovereignty in order to become British subjects and thereby enjoy law and order, and property rights. This is quite something... but it is not a foundational or constiutional document for all of us. That was provided by the British Parliament and a Governor that drew up a constitution for our own democratic Parliament once we became a self-governing colony. Any treaty-centric politics, however noble and well-intentioned, is misguided and unhistorical. I believe Dr Reese refers to the treaty as a covenant, and this is exactly what it is not. It's a secular compact between chiefs and the British Crown.

[@LarryMilmine-e9r]

You do realize that covenant means agreement? It also means legal contract. I don't think debating the meaning of covenant is a hill you want to die on lol. Also what the heck is a 'secular compact'? Is this where secular people stomp their feet?

[@davethewave7248]

@@LarryMilmine-e9r Covenant as in sacred.. Some of these people in the church are no doubt referring back to the work the missionaries and the Church Missionary Society had in the construction of the treaty. My point is that while the missionaries aided the process it is very much a secular/ political document between the British state and the chiefs of NZ.

[@LarryMilmine-e9r]

@@davethewave7248 I disagree with the idea that the word 'covenant' is used purely in a sacred, religious context and meaning. It is an old word that simply means contract/agreement. The church is only using this word because it fits perfectly with the words 'contract/agreement' and is common lingo in theology. To dismiss the word 'contract' here is just poor semantics.

[@davethewave7248]

@@LarryMilmine-e9r Yes, the word can be used variously [in a common or in a technical way]. The point here though is when used in *public* discourse, most people are going to associate covenant with sacred. That the various meanings of covenant can overlap no doubt also suits those that use them.

[@davethewave7248]

@@LarryMilmine-e9r I guess what I'm saying is that when you're communicated at the public level, the perceptions of your audience should be taken into account in the langauge you use... in order to convey most effectively your meaning and intent. A public audience will associate covenant with sacred.

[@robingrieve9586]

One would think that Christian church leaders would be more interested in encouraging harmony rather than elevate hostility in order to promote their desire for an apartheid state.

[@food4thort]

A Royal Commission into codification of a New Zealand Constitution would automatically deal with the Treaty of Waitangi as part of the process. This would (at last!) give the public a chance to have their say on 'Treaty principles'.

[@Johnthestudent]

You SAY that “the treaty is not a settled matter.”
But you signed a letter that says “tino rangatiratanga must be “upheld.”
This means absolute sovereignty remains with the Maori chiefs. So your letter says that the Crown is an illegitimate government illegally occupying the country, in the same way as Israel occupies the West Bank.
Did you realise that, or didn’t you read the letter you signed?

[@geoffstokes]

Massive idol behind him

[@kentstevens5839]

I am for democracy to define our laws instead of letting unaccountable judges to create treaty principles. We can all have input into a select committee bill. We have no input into what the judges have done to create treaty principles for the last fifty years.

[@stephenlennon7369]

All good to have a conversation but a referendum on something needing careful consideration is not the right way to address these issues

[@josephl9619]

word salad. Very fluffy answers to the very serious problems we face.

[@LarryMilmine-e9r]

He spoke very well.

[@josephl9619]

@@LarryMilmine-e9r Once you boil down the many minutes he spoke for, what he actually said was that we do need the debate but that this is the wrong forum. Then he gave a very vague description of an appropriate forum - one that all but guarantees the status quo. Right?

[@LarryMilmine-e9r]

@@josephl9619 that's very subjective. He navigated the nuances very well.

[@josephl9619]

@@LarryMilmine-e9r he navigated the nuances well for people who are in favour of the status quo - which is an ever decreasing percentage of the population

[@bobbysmith855]

Interesting Maori god looming up behind him!

[@samiyam8210]

That's no God.... just ancestor depiction...😊

[@50djc]

Well done Andrew keeping awake during your interview

[@geoffstokes]

This will just create division in the church

[@sueedwards9334]

Yes, they’ll probably lose a few people, if the comments on this and other similar interviews are anything to go by.

[@geoffstokes]

​@@sueedwards9334a lot of the types of churches backing this have either already closed a lot of churches or are shrinking already.

[@geoffstokes]

​​@@sueedwards9334a lot of the types of churches backing this have either already closed a lot of churches or are shrinking already They must get back to preaching the true gospel of Jesus Chris..

[@geoffstokes]

I thought it was 400 leaders

[@djpomare]

Co-governance is in the treaty. Brits replaced rangatiratanga (run by local chiefs) into sovereignty (run by UK royals). The treaty house was set on fire but the treaty document still exists showing the details along with its burnt frayed edges. We've tried the colonial system for a hell of a long time and now is the time to give the actual documented deal a fair go. My tipuna, Pomare signed the treaty on 15 Feb 1840 and we're still waiting. Focus on getting in the waka and working together - Kiingi Tuheitia.

[@upwardandonward]

What you say is complete nonsense, start to finish.

[@sueedwards9334]

It looks to most people that THEY are the undemocratic ones, as they don’t want anyone else to talk about. How on earth can they justify this?? Or do they just think that they know better than everyone else, being Pastors or whatever? He comes across as supercilious and condescending.

[@barbsmart7373]

It is great knowing that the level of ignorance shown in a lot of comments is due to the ignorance of a small section if NZ.
It is a shame Seymour is so childlike, and is wasting so much time, effort and taxpayers money on such an ignorant and completely wasteful piece of a process.