Thanks, we certainly have put a lot of time in to getting good quality respectable kit. The sabres are not Hanwei Huttons, but we do use those as well. The jackets are the basic PBT (Hungary) coaching jackets. Helmets are Leon Paul coaching with leather mask top. Knee/shins are brushcutter guards. Escrima forearm guards and gloves from Revival, also motorcycle gloves are good for sabre. Contact me by PM if you want links to the suppliers, happy to help.
No problem. One of the key reasons for these videos existence is to explain such things. Show people how these weapons were and can be used and offer an opportunity to ask questions about all aspects of them.
No, they are what is generally referred to as a 'gymnasium sabre' in the 19th century, a slightly lighter more flexible bladed training weapon for safe sparring practice. They were then used for the practice of both infantry and cavalry swordsmanship, as the blade length of the two was not as much as you would think, as little as two inches, weight and mass distribution were, but that didn't matter when these were intended for safe practice in as realistic fashion as possible.
The gloves in this video are Revival light sparring gloves with Roo the leatherman's armadillo gauntlets over the top for Mike. We don't use either anymore. We use British police riot gloves which are excellent for rapier, sabre and smallsword.
They are just such very different weapons for different periods and uses. In a civilian context, so self defence and honourable quarrels, a rapier (ideally with dagger), for war, a sabre. Trained with swords for 14 years, but not always proper HEMA (from period fighting systems), serious rapier study from about 2005 onwards, sabre much later, its more a fun extra weapon for us as opposed to primary.
@ZSwordsMan You are probably looking at Sport blades. Having said that, curved historical training blades aren't easy to get. These are built specially by an engineer in Austria, but are difficult to get. I have seen a US supplier selling them but forgotten the name. Most people use the Hanwei Hutton sabres, which are a little short, but otherwise slightly curved and good for the job.
@MrScijin Yeh, it just depends on if and when it has been cleaned. Saying that, a real fight doesn't always take place in ideal conditions, so I don't mind the variation at all.
Yes I have done, its very interesting stuff. Check out my more recent sabre videos, as this one is four years old. We practice sabre from early to mid 19th century British military manuals.
@Polskmofo No worries, they are Austrian made and supplied through Peter Zillinger of Klingenspiel in Austria. They cost 150 euros, atleast when we bought them two years ago.
In this video they are both from an Austrian engineer who used to make them as a hobby but is now retired, so they have now fallen out of use as blades are no longer available. We have 12 sabres coming from peter regenyei (search you will find his website). We already use his longswords in the club and find them brilliant so have no doubt they will be good. He will also make them to your specification. Price about 180 euros roughly.
Elbow guards are police riot and Ice hockey. Leg guards are Brushcutter guards. they are incredably light and flexible with good protection overall. However, they lack side of the knee protection. Several purpose made options have been released for historical fencing this year with more to come, like SPES, Absolute Force, and PBT releasing a range soon. I think the PBT ones will be the best based on prototypes I saw in February.
Those clashes are typically parries or looking for openings. Frequently they are attempts at feints where the opponent hasn't responded. Sometimes they are dead parries. The sabre being a parry-riposte weapon, you almost always need to make solid (dead) parries before following with a counter, but sometimes it is too dangerous to precede with that counter safely.
so look at say the 2012 Olympic sabre finals with slow motion which is on youtube. Continuous stepping forwards with loads of feints to create a split second opening. But almost every contact is a double because of this, as we know, such feints were very dangerous, many historical masters tell us as such. So Olympic fencing is impressive in athletics and skill of timing for what it is, but is a long way short of representing a sword fight, for ultimately, the purpose is to survive.
What was that at 2:42 ? Trying to grasp the blade with the left hand, or block it? Untidy style that ignores the basics of sabre fencing. Keep the free hand behind the body, hold your belt if need be, but never be tempted to grasp or pin the opponents blade.
Why we do but I don't do hema. So depends. On linear attacks its hard to close in trap the arm. You'd have to angle out of the way either left out right to have a chance.
that might be true for modern sabre fencing, but there are plenty of historical sources that talk about the use of the off-hand to trap, grab, or deflect the blade, for military sabre fencing. Whether it's a good idea or not, it was done in historical military terms, so seems like it might have been in certain contexts.
A big thing I have found that helps is using my off hand to grab the blade or try to use it to hold off my opponents sword. I would much rather lose some fingers or a hand than my face. Also wondering why you guys are not starting with a hanging guard more often?
I may be wrong as I am only beginning at sport sabre and never tried historical fencing., but as illustrated by some exchanges in this comments section, there seems to be some disparities between historical and sport sabre fencing techniques - the grip, the way to manage distance, the presence of circular cuts and the guards all look somewhat different. I am curious to know your opinions and thoughts on the subject.
@sonoflurch The flexibility developed as swords got lighter and firearms became more prevalent. At this stage of rapier, relatively little or no armor was worn and battles were mostly fought with guns. Military sabers weren't much heavier at all but were just as flexible. Even longswords were fairly flexible but Hollywood tends to portray them as solid and inflexible. In truth an inflexible blade would shatter or bend if made contact with metal. Epee and foils are just for sport though.
Yes there are many differences. The modern sport sabre is derived by the 19c duelling sabres, quite a different weapon to the military sword. The circular blade actions (Moulinets) are immensely common as they are needed to make many parries and develop speed and power for the cuts. Whereas a sport sabre has no mass at all, and you require only contact, not a cut, so they can be flicked. DIstance is entirely different because in sport sabre there is no concern for not being hit
It is what we call a double hit, and is always something to avoid at all costs in swordsmanship. Sadly we know from countless historical accounts that they happen. They can be reduced over time with training, but at any level, with fighters of roughly equal skill they will and still do happen. At 1:09 the fighter on the right likely would have lost control of his arm, fighter on the left was likely hit with the flat of the blade, so may or may not have been serious.
Sorry replied from wrong ID. That is indeed true of the sabre. Many civilian forms revolved around years of training, but the sabre being a military tool required it to be taught simply and easily in a very short time, and to be combat effective in the quickest time possible. I enjoy sabre, but it doesn't fascinate me as much as earlier weapons in actual style. I may look at some videos at some point in the future for it.
How much to buy all these equipment? I really want to spar with my friend but sadly I do not know where to order them oversea. Really had fun watching this btw
@sonoflurch Its a matter of safety. Its rather dificult to create a flexible curved blade, and you therefore tend to end up with more flex in the blade than is ideal, though it doesn't effect the fight too much. There are very few makers of training sabres and these are the best, whereas with rapiers and longswords there are a lot more oprtions. So this is just an unfortunate characteristic of a safe training weapon, which will hopefully improve with future developments.
@duran3d No, as control of the fight does not mean success in combat. Rules will vary depending on the type of freeplay or tournament, but as a rule, double hits do not count for anything, unless one hit is substantially better than the other, or one would have stopped the other from landing.
how comes the swords get more flexible? you know like,before there was the longsword, the rapier,but then theres these, and it seems to me like they are less effective (ive never even picked up a sword before, just going by what i see) can you explain?
They are steel, made as an original would be. They are made safe by being blunt and with broad tips. However protective gear is still needed to provide protection from the blunt force trauma. In more recent videos we now use sabres matched in size and weight to British 19th century sabres. The ones here are a tiny bit lighter and thinner.
+michael strang They are long out of production. We now use sabres from Peter Regenyei in Hungary. He makes the best military training sabres in the world. They are also more realistic than the ones here, which were a little to light in the blade and whippy.
Title was just keyword spamming before it was easy to attach search strings, as this video is close to six years old! AHF is our group, the Academy of Historical Fencing.
@BuscoBeast Bravo! This is ridiculous. These two gentlemen position themselves as pros and fencing teachers - but what I see is two amateurs who learned fencing from the book.
@BuscoBeast As with any martial arts academy, we are judged by our reputation and results, and our teaching around Europe as well as results in competitive tournaments, both and as instructors and our students, speak for themselves. Historically through most periods in European history there were no credentials to teach, you just start a school, and your standard dictates your reputation, so if you feel upto the task, do so.
Christian's Channel Speed which can be increased using a second hand, basic physics, F=ma a greater force equals a greater acceleration, therefore a greater velocity change. It just seems like such a strange sword based fighting style, its too formal and slow and snippy and flimsy to be used in anything but a sparring match.
Good fighting but i feel like you guys could be striking more zones. Lower legs? Closing the gap? "holding down the pillow" with relentless attacks once your opponents on the defensive? Ever used a sword with two handed handle? or use more circular motions to increase attack speed like in kung fu broadsword forms of tai chi sword techniques? Just a thought, nice work tho, check out my vids to see what i mean.
There are a few too many doubles than I would have liked here. Michael and I have been fencing for so long and know eachother's style so well that this is one unfortunate result. Always working on this. Of course the likelihood of fighting a sabre fighter that you had regularly practicied against in a real fight would be very slim. Shields are great, but long gone by the period of the infantry sabre in British usage.
Sorry, but you are just wrong. This is a bout between two highly skilled european martial artists who regularly bout against the top fencers around the world.
@BuscoBeast Thanks for sharing my opinion. Unfortunately, your link doesn't work. I think problem is that guys who position themselves as a historical fencers, learn fencing from books, start this activity being adults already and never have anyone who can teach them what fencing is. Fencing requires tremendous amount of time to learn, not saying efforts. And you need a master, who can demonstrate, explain and mentor. What I see here is nice hobby, and I would have more respect to these guys
If they will not inflate their achievements. One thing just came to my mind - why no one is trying to restore historical tennis? Get the old tennis manual, dress respectively, neglect modern tennis - and bingo - you are historical tennis pro. Than you can start historical tennis league.
@whitetiger82821 I don't know why people with no understanding of fencing speculate about different weapon. Leath foil, epee then sabre - stupid statement. If you want to excel, you need to specialize on one weapon. Period.
@DiVeronica very bad foot work sabre is footwork and speed and the hit. Aarm is first not foot. distance is very bad. sabre is a advance weapon you learn foil then epee then sabre.
@marozzo Too bad for you. This is bullshit, not a sabre fencing. Guys have no clue about fencing at all. Amateurs who participate in nonsense tournaments and full around with others who think that this what fencing is.
Thanks, we certainly have put a lot of time in to getting good quality respectable kit. The sabres are not Hanwei Huttons, but we do use those as well. The jackets are the basic PBT (Hungary) coaching jackets. Helmets are Leon Paul coaching with leather mask top. Knee/shins are brushcutter guards. Escrima forearm guards and gloves from Revival, also motorcycle gloves are good for sabre.
Contact me by PM if you want links to the suppliers, happy to help.
This goes straight to my collection of great YT duels and battles!
Very good.
No problem. One of the key reasons for these videos existence is to explain such things. Show people how these weapons were and can be used and offer an opportunity to ask questions about all aspects of them.
No, they are what is generally referred to as a 'gymnasium sabre' in the 19th century, a slightly lighter more flexible bladed training weapon for safe sparring practice.
They were then used for the practice of both infantry and cavalry swordsmanship, as the blade length of the two was not as much as you would think, as little as two inches, weight and mass distribution were, but that didn't matter when these were intended for safe practice in as realistic fashion as possible.
probably the best sabre video I have seen on YT.
The gloves in this video are Revival light sparring gloves with Roo the leatherman's armadillo gauntlets over the top for Mike. We don't use either anymore. We use British police riot gloves which are excellent for rapier, sabre and smallsword.
@mabscape Excellent news! I wish you luck on your training, always good to see new people starting up.
Very cool, guys. Our sabre group has a ways to go, obviously. I'm quite envious of your training sabres, as well. They look really nice.
now this is sword sparring
They are just such very different weapons for different periods and uses. In a civilian context, so self defence and honourable quarrels, a rapier (ideally with dagger), for war, a sabre.
Trained with swords for 14 years, but not always proper HEMA (from period fighting systems), serious rapier study from about 2005 onwards, sabre much later, its more a fun extra weapon for us as opposed to primary.
@ZSwordsMan You are probably looking at Sport blades. Having said that, curved historical training blades aren't easy to get. These are built specially by an engineer in Austria, but are difficult to get. I have seen a US supplier selling them but forgotten the name. Most people use the Hanwei Hutton sabres, which are a little short, but otherwise slightly curved and good for the job.
@MrScijin Yeh, it just depends on if and when it has been cleaned. Saying that, a real fight doesn't always take place in ideal conditions, so I don't mind the variation at all.
Yes I have done, its very interesting stuff. Check out my more recent sabre videos, as this one is four years old. We practice sabre from early to mid 19th century British military manuals.
Whoa, thank you for such a prompt reply. I didn't expect a reply at all, let alone such a well put explanation. Thank you.
@Polskmofo No worries, they are Austrian made and supplied through Peter Zillinger of Klingenspiel in Austria. They cost 150 euros, atleast when we bought them two years ago.
In this video they are both from an Austrian engineer who used to make them as a hobby but is now retired, so they have now fallen out of use as blades are no longer available. We have 12 sabres coming from peter regenyei (search you will find his website). We already use his longswords in the club and find them brilliant so have no doubt they will be good. He will also make them to your specification. Price about 180 euros roughly.
Elbow guards are police riot and Ice hockey. Leg guards are Brushcutter guards. they are incredably light and flexible with good protection overall. However, they lack side of the knee protection. Several purpose made options have been released for historical fencing this year with more to come, like SPES, Absolute Force, and PBT releasing a range soon. I think the PBT ones will be the best based on prototypes I saw in February.
good job guys. wish there was an academy like this in my country
Those clashes are typically parries or looking for openings. Frequently they are attempts at feints where the opponent hasn't responded. Sometimes they are dead parries. The sabre being a parry-riposte weapon, you almost always need to make solid (dead) parries before following with a counter, but sometimes it is too dangerous to precede with that counter safely.
so look at say the 2012 Olympic sabre finals with slow motion which is on youtube. Continuous stepping forwards with loads of feints to create a split second opening. But almost every contact is a double because of this, as we know, such feints were very dangerous, many historical masters tell us as such. So Olympic fencing is impressive in athletics and skill of timing for what it is, but is a long way short of representing a sword fight, for ultimately, the purpose is to survive.
It's interesting to see such an old video, it's quite different to the Roworth/ Angelo styles you guys do today.
These models are built by an Austrian Engineer, we get them from the instructor of Klingenspiel in Austria, Peter Zillinger.
What was that at 2:42 ? Trying to grasp the blade with the left hand, or block it? Untidy style that ignores the basics of sabre fencing. Keep the free hand behind the body, hold your belt if need be, but never be tempted to grasp or pin the opponents blade.
Why we do but I don't do hema. So depends. On linear attacks its hard to close in trap the arm. You'd have to angle out of the way either left out right to have a chance.
that might be true for modern sabre fencing, but there are plenty of historical sources that talk about the use of the off-hand to trap, grab, or deflect the blade, for military sabre fencing. Whether it's a good idea or not, it was done in historical military terms, so seems like it might have been in certain contexts.
@Nikos3000, what is this glorious music you have set to complement the video?
A big thing I have found that helps is using my off hand to grab the blade or try to use it to hold off my opponents sword. I would much rather lose some fingers or a hand than my face. Also wondering why you guys are not starting with a hanging guard more often?
Preference I guess
We charge £5 per session or a discounted price for those who pay monthly and no membership fees, but each club is different.
I may be wrong as I am only beginning at sport sabre and never tried historical fencing., but as illustrated by some exchanges in this comments section, there seems to be some disparities between historical and sport sabre fencing techniques - the grip, the way to manage distance, the presence of circular cuts and the guards all look somewhat different. I am curious to know your opinions and thoughts on the subject.
@mechupanlamonda Thanks, which country are you in?
@sonoflurch The flexibility developed as swords got lighter and firearms became more prevalent. At this stage of rapier, relatively little or no armor was worn and battles were mostly fought with guns. Military sabers weren't much heavier at all but were just as flexible. Even longswords were fairly flexible but Hollywood tends to portray them as solid and inflexible. In truth an inflexible blade would shatter or bend if made contact with metal. Epee and foils are just for sport though.
Don't worry, most of it was fine, good job, and good framing, you'd be amazed how many people cut legs and heads off!! I am happy with the results.
Yes there are many differences. The modern sport sabre is derived by the 19c duelling sabres, quite a different weapon to the military sword. The circular blade actions (Moulinets) are immensely common as they are needed to make many parries and develop speed and power for the cuts. Whereas a sport sabre has no mass at all, and you require only contact, not a cut, so they can be flicked. DIstance is entirely different because in sport sabre there is no concern for not being hit
It is what we call a double hit, and is always something to avoid at all costs in swordsmanship. Sadly we know from countless historical accounts that they happen. They can be reduced over time with training, but at any level, with fighters of roughly equal skill they will and still do happen. At 1:09 the fighter on the right likely would have lost control of his arm, fighter on the left was likely hit with the flat of the blade, so may or may not have been serious.
Sorry replied from wrong ID. That is indeed true of the sabre. Many civilian forms revolved around years of training, but the sabre being a military tool required it to be taught simply and easily in a very short time, and to be combat effective in the quickest time possible.
I enjoy sabre, but it doesn't fascinate me as much as earlier weapons in actual style. I may look at some videos at some point in the future for it.
How much to buy all these equipment? I really want to spar with my friend but sadly I do not know where to order them oversea. Really had fun watching this btw
Seems like a lot of times both people would get messed up. Having a shield is the way to go. great vid
@sonoflurch Its a matter of safety. Its rather dificult to create a flexible curved blade, and you therefore tend to end up with more flex in the blade than is ideal, though it doesn't effect the fight too much. There are very few makers of training sabres and these are the best, whereas with rapiers and longswords there are a lot more oprtions. So this is just an unfortunate characteristic of a safe training weapon, which will hopefully improve with future developments.
What kind of elbow and knee pads did you use? I'm interested in those shin guards which seem to integrate knee pads.
I love the sounds thay make.
Where do you guys get your equipment?
@duran3d No, as control of the fight does not mean success in combat. Rules will vary depending on the type of freeplay or tournament, but as a rule, double hits do not count for anything, unless one hit is substantially better than the other, or one would have stopped the other from landing.
how comes the swords get more flexible? you know like,before there was the longsword, the rapier,but then theres these, and it seems to me like they are less effective (ive never even picked up a sword before, just going by what i see) can you explain?
So after fencing with the rapier and the sabre, which one would you prefer if your life depended on it? And how long have you been training?
Indeed, greatness.
Where did you get your sabres?
What model of saber are you guys using?
are the swords lethal or made of some kind of light metal or plastic?
They are steel, made as an original would be. They are made safe by being blunt and with broad tips. However protective gear is still needed to provide protection from the blunt force trauma. In more recent videos we now use sabres matched in size and weight to British 19th century sabres. The ones here are a tiny bit lighter and thinner.
Brilliant. thank you for the information, mon Aime
So how many doubles were you shooting for?
Indeed.
That was damn fun to watch
@Nikos3000 currently in usa but i live in colombia.
What are the Sabres used? Can I have a name and company, please?
+michael strang They are long out of production. We now use sabres from Peter Regenyei in Hungary. He makes the best military training sabres in the world. They are also more realistic than the ones here, which were a little to light in the blade and whippy.
Through the video, I was like "double hit.. double hit.. another double... c'mon, I want somebody to win :D"
@BuscoBeast Yes why don't you?
what exactly is an AHF sword?
Title was just keyword spamming before it was easy to attach search strings, as this video is close to six years old! AHF is our group, the Academy of Historical Fencing.
AHF stands for academy of historical fencing, it's not a sword.
@BuscoBeast Bravo! This is ridiculous. These two gentlemen position themselves as pros and fencing teachers - but what I see is two amateurs who learned fencing from the book.
@BuscoBeast As with any martial arts academy, we are judged by our reputation and results, and our teaching around Europe as well as results in competitive tournaments, both and as instructors and our students, speak for themselves.
Historically through most periods in European history there were no credentials to teach, you just start a school, and your standard dictates your reputation, so if you feel upto the task, do so.
Awsome!!
How come they hold their free hand behind their backs?
Kenseiger J I would imagine to keep it away from the opponent's blade
Christian's Channel That does makes sense... Thanks!
+Christian's Channel But what about using it two handed? to make more powerful strikes and destroy an opponents defended and blocks?
***** a sabre is a relatively short single handed weapon meant more for speed than for power.
Christian's Channel Speed which can be increased using a second hand, basic physics, F=ma a greater force equals a greater acceleration, therefore a greater velocity change. It just seems like such a strange sword based fighting style, its too formal and slow and snippy and flimsy to be used in anything but a sparring match.
What does AHF mean?
This club's name is the Academy of Historical Fencing.
Good fighting but i feel like you guys could be striking more zones. Lower legs? Closing the gap? "holding down the pillow" with relentless attacks once your opponents on the defensive? Ever used a sword with two handed handle? or use more circular motions to increase attack speed like in kung fu broadsword forms of tai chi sword techniques? Just a thought, nice work tho, check out my vids to see what i mean.
wait r those calvary sabre
There are a few too many doubles than I would have liked here. Michael and I have been fencing for so long and know eachother's style so well that this is one unfortunate result. Always working on this. Of course the likelihood of fighting a sabre fighter that you had regularly practicied against in a real fight would be very slim. Shields are great, but long gone by the period of the infantry sabre in British usage.
Sorry, but you are just wrong. This is a bout between two highly skilled european martial artists who regularly bout against the top fencers around the world.
As someone who knows nothing, it seems that at 1:09, both would be on the floor bleeding out with no victor.
BEST PART.......1:57
@BuscoBeast Thanks for sharing my opinion. Unfortunately, your link doesn't work. I think problem is that guys who position themselves as a historical fencers, learn fencing from books, start this activity being adults already and never have anyone who can teach them what fencing is. Fencing requires tremendous amount of time to learn, not saying efforts. And you need a master, who can demonstrate, explain and mentor. What I see here is nice hobby, and I would have more respect to these guys
Soooo, jack sparrow in the first movie wasn't that wrong???
Im i the only on here becouse the images on the internet only shows anime images, btw this looks great
Sabre is not an advance weapon, not at all, this is not modern olympic fencing, this is 19c military sabre, they vary substantially.
Guys keep your heads level or you're bound to get a back cut.
Nice but look at movies with "szabla" Polish art of saber fights
That probably was the reason why duels were forbidden. Too many draws...
If they will not inflate their achievements. One thing just came to my mind - why no one is trying to restore historical tennis? Get the old tennis manual, dress respectively, neglect modern tennis - and bingo - you are historical tennis pro. Than you can start historical tennis league.
@drysabre true! for more ridiculous "fencing" check this out: /watch?v=06fj2Y1w5HQ
if they will not inflate their abilities and achievements.
great video- real fencing- not that flashy darty crap
@whitetiger82821 I don't know why people with no understanding of fencing speculate about different weapon. Leath foil, epee then sabre - stupid statement. If you want to excel, you need to specialize on one weapon. Period.
@DiVeronica
very bad foot work sabre is footwork and speed and the hit. Aarm is first not foot.
distance is very bad.
sabre is a advance weapon you learn foil then epee then sabre.
mike gat castrated by nick lol well done to both fighters
This is just a hack and slash bout
not skill
@marozzo Too bad for you. This is bullshit, not a sabre fencing. Guys have no clue about fencing at all. Amateurs who participate in nonsense tournaments and full around with others who think that this what fencing is.
I love the sounds thay make.