yeah he's absolutely lethal when it comes to leading them and making them run into it! Quick reflexes as well. The other shooters were good as well though, MUCH better than I can do! Another good thing I noticed about the black/white 3-tine reticule shooter - he/she knows to aim lower when the pigs are close (within 20 yards or so). I've seen a lot of videos of guys quickly bumping half a dozen rounds on a very close pig, and they all go over it.
I was raised on a farm where there were 13 sows with farrowing crates. They only went into the crates when they were ready to have a litter. Each sow had to raise 8 pigs to weaning or they went to the slaughter house. Each sow would have 5 litters in two years. When someone says not to kill the little ones it shows they do not understand the problems of allowing 5 little gilts getting away. In two years you have you would have at least 80 just of their litters and since a sow reaches sexual maturity at 4-6 months that means if half of that litter breeds once they have 160. Killing all of them out is almost impossible but trying is the best way. Thank goodness you are doing what you can, that and trapping them is the best methods we have.
Great presentation of the concept of exponential breeding. If a region were wiped clean, one breeding pair left unattended would lead to the wiped out population coming back in short order. They don't quite breed like rabbits, but they're not far off. If we compare the numbers with high density commercial pig farming, then we can easily understand how fast this goes off the rails.
This just in from Washington D.C, "I don't have any idea why Americans feel the need to have high capacity mags, mmmmm pass me some more of those imported Texas ribs they're delicious"
Hey, how many feral pigs do you think are in major metropolitan areas anyway. You hear automatic gun fire in the big cities, you run like hell cause somebody flip his lid. Thanks to the NRA by the way…. They get your 2nd amendment but somebody doesn’t get their “life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.” Thoughts and prayers, I guess.
I watch a lot of these videos and that is the best marksmanship I've ever seen on any of them. Hardly any misses and almost all head shots from long range. Great Job!
I must have been watching a different video to you. Lots of multiple shots one one target. Lots of hits in the back legs and in many cases the shot was landing behind the pig. Seen much better shooting than that.
There a many, many misses and these are the ones specifically chosen for the video... so maybe you are over-stating. Imagine how many misses were left out.
Just a few years ago I found out about the hog issue.I usually shoot black powder live occasionally. I'd love a video on weapon types and the caliber used in these videos.Id love to try this.
These are wild hogs. Some are mixed with domestic pigs. That said they taste gamey and stink. Most are also full of worms. These hogs are very destructive here in Texas, tearing up crops and destroying native habitat that other small game animals need to survive. @@Whatta33
This is something I have been interested in but how does someone get so much land to hunt on with all these pigs I’m 17 I love to hunt I have a new night vision scope but I unfortunately can’t use it because I have no where to go with pigs I live in Texas but no matter what I do I can’t seem to find a spot any suggestions on what I should do?
Be patient. Offer to help the land owners/farmers/ranchers with whatever they may need. Treat their land good by taking care of it If you keep it up and keep a good attitude you’ll soon have more land than you can hunt.
I believe they are feral hogs that do much destruction to the crops here in the states, and i cant believe what a problem they've become. I see lots of videos like this.
@@HickoryFlatBoars I imagine there are enough small carnivores, birds of prey etc. to do the job. Good for those populations. Too bad a few more apex predators couldn't help out with the pigs.
Maybe the camra angle was different from the shooter angle but looked to me like there was a big danger of hitting the cows on some of those set ups jmo
Apex predators existed way back when the Spaniards casually allowed some of their pigs (brought from Europe) to go feral. So the mountain lions, bears, wolves and coyotes of the southwest had free range. This started 500 years ago (early to mid 1500s.) It appear that a few things didn't work. Wild pork may not have been to their taste. Their numbers almost immediately couldn't keep up with the supply. The pigs got smart, mean, and large - fighting back. And they of course, over-bred. Also - a substantial portion of this population now may be diseased. And finally. Ranchers and farmers with real populations of domestic stock (cattle, horses, sheep, goats, pigs, poultry) might not trust an apex predator to leave their stock alone and go after the wild hogs only.
I wonder if a commercial fish food company could organize processing the feral animals, and create a secondary income for farmers, and new supply for commercial fish feed. I think the fish are immune to just about all those diseases, could be an angle, as well, plant food manufacturers. Just a thought.
Well that's the thing. All over the place. Their range goes across the south from California to Florida - solid. Scatterings up north. They have a lot of land (farmland, forest) to hide out in to procreate two, two and a half times a year - 10-15 piglets per litter if the land is giving them good feed. They eat anything. Especially grain crops. American agriculture has been good to them. Never a time of famine. They were, and are, amazing opportunists. Blessed by circumstance. If they were, let's say, a "protected" species - we'd be doubling our pig population probably every half dozen years. Pretty scary thing to contemplate. It is no lie that they cost American agriculture multiple billions of dollars in damage per year. That comes directly out of farmer/rancher pockets. And it comes out of ours too, indirectly at the supermarket cash checkout.
Quite satisfying - if you do a bit of reading (Like good old Texas boy Jim Hightower) and bone up on the good information. Farmer and rancher friendly. Understanding what they're up against, and how much this collection of vermin costs American agriculturists annually - gorging on the grain, the plants, crops, everything they plant. Free lunch from piglet to boar. So the elimination game is payback due. These pigs are not "natural" indigenous wildlife. They are an artificially introduced population (going back 500 years) from Spaniards wandering around what was to become Texas, looking for their El Dorado (city of gold) which they never found. The ancestors of wild boars were domestic pigs brought from Spain. Six to nine million pigs. That's a lot of rootin' tootin' shootin'. Target practice for one and all. But notice how the professionals keep the hazards under control. I get sick and tired of the "is there a more humane way to do this?" crowd. I want to tell them all, 160 families of pigs just ate their way through $50 thousand worth of your bank account. How does that make you feel? Humane?
I like when you hit some and they spin in that circle. Must have hit that hip or something. Those types and when they drag their hind legs after getting hit. Either way, these Texas Rhinos have to go. Will we EVER get rid of these things or anywhere close?
At the rate we're going now? Maybe by the end of the century. Complete extinction? Not a chance. Which means down from a population high of 6 to 9 million, if we reduced it to 10% of that, it would still be a modest industry needing several thousand people to moderate.
Great shooting I got to old so eyes aren’t as good when I was younger I wish I could have been part of that they are a menace to crops and their over running everywhere awesome video
Удивительно. Мы в России наоборот пытаемся вырастить поголовье, очень много прикармливается зверя. Я думаю наши охотничьи хозяйства были бы рады, еслиб им прислали живьём несколько таких стад))) У нас за охоту на кабана охотник платит около 200$ за одного зверя. А у вас наоборот))) Какой калибр используете?
There are a lot of people here that charge to kill the pigs. We are just fortunate enough where we have lots of places we don’t have to pay. Does your country not have a bad problem with them? Where shoot the 7.62x39 mostly.
@@HickoryFlatBoars У нас в России проблем с кабанами нет, бывают случаи, когда свиньи придут в огород к людям, но эти случаи редкие. Я живу в Санкт-Петербурге, у нас лося в два раза больше чем кабана. Очень много аварий на дорогах происходит из-за выхода лосей на трассы. У нас 80 процентов охотников стреляет кабанов и лосей из 308win и 30-06. Хотя лет 20 назад, очень много людей охотилось с СКС 7,62х39.
You guys always put out great footage all the time........I know you all are PROFESSIONALS HOGS TREMINATORS ..but what happen if a bullet ROCOCHET and ACCIDENTLY killed a cow , do you have to pay the farm owner for the damage ? if you do have to pay.....you got to KEEP the BEEF ? how these thing gets settle if it DOES HAPPEN...?
The shooting around the cattle like in this videos is mainly done by one person and it’s his family cattle. The guy that owns the cattle gets hit for 10s of thousands of dollars a year in feed that the pigs eat. He’s told the shooter to kill the pigs however he can.
@@HickoryFlatBoars I think a lot of our bleeding heart supposedly animal loving libs need to read, hear, and understand your comment. "The guy that owns the cattle gets hit for tens of thousands of dollars a year in feed that the pigs eat." This is what city armchair sitters don't get, don't see, don't understand. The economics of the thing. Obviously a farmer/rancher can't afford to take this hit. He is not ranching to preserve a wild boar population. Meat on the hoof from an average steer would out-sell that same weight of wild pork by a factor of what? In a way I guess, you could compare this to a rat infestation getting into a grain storage silo. Nobody would question that. My profound respect for all farmers, ranchers and agriculturists fighting this problem. I wish y'all had better governmental support. But not surprised your best methods are probably of your own design. All the best.
the shooter on red crosshair amazing timing ive seen a lot of night vision hunting and i must say that you are of the the best shooter in the field,,,
yeah he's absolutely lethal when it comes to leading them and making them run into it! Quick reflexes as well. The other shooters were good as well though, MUCH better than I can do! Another good thing I noticed about the black/white 3-tine reticule shooter - he/she knows to aim lower when the pigs are close (within 20 yards or so). I've seen a lot of videos of guys quickly bumping half a dozen rounds on a very close pig, and they all go over it.
Yeah he’s normally pretty dearly behind the rifle. Thanks for the view and comment.
I was raised on a farm where there were 13 sows with farrowing crates. They only went into the crates when they were ready to have a litter. Each sow had to raise 8 pigs to weaning or they went to the slaughter house. Each sow would have 5 litters in two years. When someone says not to kill the little ones it shows they do not understand the problems of allowing 5 little gilts getting away. In two years you have you would have at least 80 just of their litters and since a sow reaches sexual maturity at 4-6 months that means if half of that litter breeds once they have 160. Killing all of them out is almost impossible but trying is the best way. Thank goodness you are doing what you can, that and trapping them is the best methods we have.
Sounds like someone gets it! Thanks for the comment and view.
I can only hope the aroma of bacon doesn't add to climate change
baby turns into an adult and makes more babies, the way she goes. crazy that some people don't get it or that doing this is good for the ecosystem.
Great presentation of the concept of exponential breeding.
If a region were wiped clean, one breeding pair left unattended would lead to the wiped out population coming back in short order.
They don't quite breed like rabbits, but they're not far off.
If we compare the numbers with high density commercial pig farming, then we can easily understand how fast this goes off the rails.
Wow very interesting you know yoru shit
This just in from Washington D.C, "I don't have any idea why Americans feel the need to have high capacity mags, mmmmm pass me some more of those imported Texas ribs they're delicious"
😂
Hey, how many feral pigs do you think are in major metropolitan areas anyway. You hear automatic gun fire in the big cities, you run like hell cause somebody flip his lid. Thanks to the NRA by the way…. They get your 2nd amendment but somebody doesn’t get their “life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.” Thoughts and prayers, I guess.
Where in this video do you see proof for high capacity mags?
LMAO😂😂😂😂😂
Has nothing to do with ribs…
I watch a lot of these videos and that is the best marksmanship I've ever seen on any of them. Hardly any misses and almost all head shots from long range. Great Job!
I must have been watching a different video to you. Lots of multiple shots one one target. Lots of hits in the back legs and in many cases the shot was landing behind the pig. Seen much better shooting than that.
There a many, many misses and these are the ones specifically chosen for the video... so maybe you are over-stating. Imagine how many misses were left out.
Thanks girls.
I like how the pigs go nuts at the first gunshot, meanwhile the cows are like, "Meh".
No one gonna talk about the deer standing and saying bruh WTF is happen to that hog 0:56
😂😂
I saw it!
Truly superior marksmanship
Thanks for the comment.
Just a few years ago I found out about the hog issue.I usually shoot black powder live occasionally. I'd love a video on weapon types and the caliber used in these videos.Id love to try this.
Thanks for the comment. We are looking at trying to do a video along these lines in the future.
as a matter of curiosity.. does someone collect the hogs that are killed or are they left for mother nature to claim them?
We give them away when we have people to take them. Mostly they are left for the wildlife though.
@@HickoryFlatBoars if they are eating oats , corn and other crops their meat may be better quality than what's sold in grocery stores
they'd be a great protein source for soup kitchens and other hungry people
I was thinking about that. That’s a lot of bacon to pass
These are wild hogs. Some are mixed with domestic pigs. That said they taste gamey and stink. Most are also full of worms. These hogs are very destructive here in Texas, tearing up crops and destroying native habitat that other small game animals need to survive. @@Whatta33
Thanks, Hickory Flat Boars.
How are the boars disposed of? Just curious.
What type of rifle and ammo are you using on the 130 Hogs?
What ammo are y’all using for the 7.62x 39 and .223?
124 grain sp for the x39 and 65 grain green tip for the 223 is what we mainly use.
Those piggies drop. What caliber are you using?
@1:28 "hey man! I felt the breeze on that one!" -cow
No joke!
What caliber of weapon do you use?
Are you guys running all 223s or are there any 308s as well?
Mainly 7.62x39. Some 223. We don’t run 308s much anymore.
@HickoryFlatBoars why not?
Superb marksmanship! well 'executed' literally and humanely..great job boys!!
Thanks and thanks for the view.
Some of the shooters here are not great marksman. They're spraying and praying.
Rather than leaving them to decompose, is it possible to eat the meat? Or is it bad?
You could eat the meat if you wanted. They do carry a lot of diseases though so you’d have to make sure to cooked it properly.
the smaller ones but not the big ones
Practice on the range builds confidence, Before hog Eradication, 130 down well done good job,
What caliber and bullet type do y’all use?
This is something I have been interested in but how does someone get so much land to hunt on with all these pigs I’m 17 I love to hunt I have a new night vision scope but I unfortunately can’t use it because I have no where to go with pigs I live in Texas but no matter what I do I can’t seem to find a spot any suggestions on what I should do?
Be patient. Offer to help the land owners/farmers/ranchers with whatever they may need. Treat their land good by taking care of it If you keep it up and keep a good attitude you’ll soon have more land than you can hunt.
@@HickoryFlatBoars thank you so much!!
A Brit here, so please excuse the question: are these wild boars considered pests, and that's why they're being culled?
Correct
I believe they are feral hogs that do much destruction to the crops here in the states, and i cant believe what a problem they've become. I see lots of videos like this.
There’s tens of thousands of them at minimum in just Texas
Un bonjour from France,nices shorts guys!!!don t stop so amazing!
And thanks a lot!
what caliber 300? 308 norma?
What do you do with the dead animals
What happens to all the carcasses?
They feed the wildlife. Thanks for watching.
Great shooting, what kind of gun and ammo
KS47 7.62x39 and some .223
What caliber rifle are you using?
Some 7.62x39 and some .223
Much more action! This is what we want! Boars still seem to retain all three physical dimensions, but I actually prefer them better this way.
We will hopefully have more videos like this in the near future. That's if harvest is as good as it usually is.
@@HickoryFlatBoars Showcase one of them flat boars. Aint never seen me one of them.
@@harrymallory7963 they’re in almost every video 😂
@@HickoryFlatBoars Where? I don't see any flatness whatsoever! They seem to have a dimension no matter which direction they're seen from!
I'm in Alberta CANADA and have been hearing about them criters starting to come north
Will get myself geared up for them
What's the average distance of engagement?
148,000 ft/yds
Just love it when y’all cut loose!!! Total action!!! 😀👍👍
a good farmer weeds his garden
LOL, 0:57 mark, that Deer just watching....like yeah it's pig season.
Nice video.
Just wondering how do u dispose of the hogs? Just leave em there to decompose?
Most of the time we do.
@@HickoryFlatBoarsI thought most Went to a slaughter house to be, made into pet food??!!!
The lead in the bullets doesn't decompose.
@@HickoryFlatBoars I imagine there are enough small carnivores, birds of prey etc. to do the job. Good for those populations. Too bad a few more apex predators couldn't help out with the pigs.
@@golden.lights.twinkle2329wrapped in copper
are u eating them after?
This little piggy went to market. This little piggy went straight to hell LOL.
Lmao. Thanks for watching and for the comment.
Maybe the camra angle was different from the shooter angle but looked to me like there was a big danger of hitting the cows on some of those set ups jmo
Teaching pigs how to do front flips, I love it
Yes sir!
FANTASTIC JOB🤝🤝BRAVO!!!!!!!!
Thank you!
Do you eat them?
Great job there.
Thanks and thanks for the view.
Just a thought, would it be ok if apex predators like mountain lions are brought in to control the hog problem in Texas?
Apex predators existed way back when the Spaniards casually allowed some of their pigs (brought from Europe) to go feral.
So the mountain lions, bears, wolves and coyotes of the southwest had free range.
This started 500 years ago (early to mid 1500s.)
It appear that a few things didn't work. Wild pork may not have been to their taste. Their numbers almost immediately couldn't keep up with the supply. The pigs got smart, mean, and large - fighting back. And they of course, over-bred.
Also - a substantial portion of this population now may be diseased.
And finally. Ranchers and farmers with real populations of domestic stock (cattle, horses, sheep, goats, pigs, poultry) might not trust an apex predator to leave their stock alone and go after the wild hogs only.
That was awesome 😎
Thanks!
These sport shooters are good guardians of agriculture.
When the weather gets cold I want to go hog hunting.
❤❤❤ENJOYED YA VIDEOS
Good work.
Are these edible for humans ?
Not generally.
*RED CROSSHAIRS you are amazing. SNIPER GRADE!*
Awesome video 👍
Thanks
I wonder if a commercial fish food company could organize processing the feral animals, and create a secondary income for farmers, and new supply for commercial fish feed. I think the fish are immune to just about all those diseases, could be an angle, as well, plant food manufacturers. Just a thought.
Love the thud
We do too. Thanks for the comment and view. We appreciate it.
Where do these pigs hide out to breed in such large numbers?
Well that's the thing. All over the place.
Their range goes across the south from California to Florida - solid.
Scatterings up north.
They have a lot of land (farmland, forest) to hide out in to procreate two, two and a half times a year - 10-15 piglets per litter if the land is giving them good feed.
They eat anything. Especially grain crops.
American agriculture has been good to them. Never a time of famine.
They were, and are, amazing opportunists. Blessed by circumstance.
If they were, let's say, a "protected" species - we'd be doubling our pig population probably every half dozen years. Pretty scary thing to contemplate.
It is no lie that they cost American agriculture multiple billions of dollars in damage per year. That comes directly out of farmer/rancher pockets.
And it comes out of ours too, indirectly at the supermarket cash checkout.
You do good work. 😊😊@@burleybater
Outstanding family entertainment!
Tremendous shooting skills in this video! Pig Carnage, U.S.A.
Thanks for watching and for the comment.
Increduable long distance shooting!
Whenever 'm feeling down and sad about the world, I watch hog killin' videos.
Quite satisfying - if you do a bit of reading (Like good old Texas boy Jim Hightower) and bone up on the good information. Farmer and rancher friendly.
Understanding what they're up against, and how much this collection of vermin costs American agriculturists annually - gorging on the grain, the plants, crops, everything they plant. Free lunch from piglet to boar.
So the elimination game is payback due.
These pigs are not "natural" indigenous wildlife. They are an artificially introduced population (going back 500 years) from Spaniards wandering around what was to become Texas, looking for their El Dorado (city of gold) which they never found.
The ancestors of wild boars were domestic pigs brought from Spain.
Six to nine million pigs. That's a lot of rootin' tootin' shootin'.
Target practice for one and all. But notice how the professionals keep the hazards under control.
I get sick and tired of the "is there a more humane way to do this?" crowd.
I want to tell them all, 160 families of pigs just ate their way through $50 thousand worth of your bank account. How does that make you feel? Humane?
Burt Gummer would be proud of you guys!
Perfect 🙌 👏 👍 💪
Thanks
I love the way those piglets splatter
something wrong with you
Sorry
Did you count them?
The 130?
@@HickoryFlatBoars I think 131
Some nice lead shots in there.
Pretty awesome!! Bastards need to be eliminated!! Thanks for helping with that!!!!
Thanks Amy
0:57 Dear off to the side is like
"Hey what's going on over there, is that Bob?"
Yep! Lol
Thanks for the view and for commenting
Ya'll have gotten me to where I've become a "thwack-addict" lol.
Nice!
Astonishing marksmanship!
Lőni mikor tanultok meg? :D
Not sure that we ever learned to shoot. As you can tell from our videos 🤣. Thanks for watching and for commenting.
I like when you hit some and they spin in that circle. Must have hit that hip or something. Those types and when they drag their hind legs after getting hit. Either way, these Texas Rhinos have to go. Will we EVER get rid of these things or anywhere close?
At the rate we're going now? Maybe by the end of the century.
Complete extinction? Not a chance.
Which means down from a population high of 6 to 9 million, if we reduced it to 10% of that, it would still be a modest industry needing several thousand people to moderate.
The Government should put a $5 bounty on feral hogs. If people could make a living doing it the problem would be solved in five years or less.
Great shooting guy's and girlz. Great job of going back to make sure it didn't suffer.
Thanks for watching and for commenting
Great shooting I got to old so eyes aren’t as good when I was younger I wish I could have been part of that they are a menace to crops and their over running everywhere awesome video
Thanks for the comments. I imagine you would of had a blast.
I Enjoy these ! retired and I envy your eyesight and Success on this Mission .
Thanks for watching and for commenting.
Triple salvo in the pike position.
And they say DISNEYLAND is the happiest place on earth.
man i miss this no lie
How can I join the gang 😊
Удивительно. Мы в России наоборот пытаемся вырастить поголовье, очень много прикармливается зверя. Я думаю наши охотничьи хозяйства были бы рады, еслиб им прислали живьём несколько таких стад))) У нас за охоту на кабана охотник платит около 200$ за одного зверя. А у вас наоборот))) Какой калибр используете?
There are a lot of people here that charge to kill the pigs. We are just fortunate enough where we have lots of places we don’t have to pay. Does your country not have a bad problem with them? Where shoot the 7.62x39 mostly.
@@HickoryFlatBoars У нас в России проблем с кабанами нет, бывают случаи, когда свиньи придут в огород к людям, но эти случаи редкие. Я живу в Санкт-Петербурге, у нас лося в два раза больше чем кабана. Очень много аварий на дорогах происходит из-за выхода лосей на трассы. У нас 80 процентов охотников стреляет кабанов и лосей из 308win и 30-06. Хотя лет 20 назад, очень много людей охотилось с СКС 7,62х39.
it looks like so much fun⚛😀
Oopsie, at 3:04, dat hog tripped over his intestine.
Doing God's work. Thank you!
Dynamite !!!!!! 😂
Im curious, are silencers illegal there? Well done, great shooting. Keep them things from spreading!
They are legal.
@@HickoryFlatBoars How do you get past ATF regs on silencers its pretty strict
In Texas?? I'm surprised they're not in vending machines.
Two things needed to hunt these hogs. Silencers and full auto rifles. Or claymores.
We agree. Thanks for watching.
I'd like to say poor piggies but given how destructive they are good riddance to them.
You guys always put out great footage all the time........I know you all are PROFESSIONALS HOGS TREMINATORS ..but what happen if a bullet ROCOCHET and ACCIDENTLY killed a cow , do you have to pay the farm owner for the damage ? if you do have to pay.....you got to KEEP the BEEF ? how these thing gets settle if it DOES HAPPEN...?
The shooting around the cattle like in this videos is mainly done by one person and it’s his family cattle. The guy that owns the cattle gets hit for 10s of thousands of dollars a year in feed that the pigs eat. He’s told the shooter to kill the pigs however he can.
Thanks for the comment and view by the way. We appreciate you and others taking the time to watch our content.
@@HickoryFlatBoars I think a lot of our bleeding heart supposedly animal loving libs need to read, hear, and understand your comment. "The guy that owns the cattle gets hit for tens of thousands of dollars a year in feed that the pigs eat."
This is what city armchair sitters don't get, don't see, don't understand.
The economics of the thing. Obviously a farmer/rancher can't afford to take this hit. He is not ranching to preserve a wild boar population. Meat on the hoof from an average steer would out-sell that same weight of wild pork by a factor of what?
In a way I guess, you could compare this to a rat infestation getting into a grain storage silo. Nobody would question that.
My profound respect for all farmers, ranchers and agriculturists fighting this problem. I wish y'all had better governmental support. But not surprised your best methods are probably of your own design. All the best.
Boritos for everyone!
Yes!
Nice
Thanks for the comment and for watching.
8:04 lol mouth fucking pried open
130 Hogs down and not even a drop in the bucket for what's out there.
👍
Thanks
epic shooting bro
Nice shooting!
Do the farmers sell the meat from the hogs or just destroy them in a fire 🤷♂️
Most of the time it’s left to feed the wildlife.
bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang………”Got him!”
Any hope of eliminating this wild hog problem any time soon?
NOPE!
How do you distinguish between a wild hog and say my ex-wife? Dont they look identical with the thermal scope???
It really pains me to see them shooting the pigs mixed in with the cows.
Sorry!
How may cows were shot???
😂😂 be 0
Que hacen con los cerdos muertos? Los recogen de los ampos y luego que???... Los venden?