Really good comment!...I'm still not sure that crazy deadly aircraft can climb over 1,000 feet...Either way isn't it nice how they push that you forget you are in an airplane...Always a great thing to remember when you are flying.....Don't even understand how this company is still in business after killing their Chief Engineer in one of those insane "aircraft/seaplane/car"
@@richardfrancis5406 If I'm not mistaken, the Icon exec flew into a box canyon over water at low attitude, discovered no way out, turned but couldn't clear his turnaround. His death prompted Icon to put out a warning against low level flying over water close to land........ Roy Halladay died from low level flying over water, making steep turns. Witnesses saw him flying and leveling out when he went into the water. NTSB toxicological report states a number of drugs in his system but a final determination has yet to be made. Legal and illegal drugs will affect every pilot's decision making capabilities.
@The Infidel Yes but this wasn't revealed in the initial NTSB investigation until recently. As you know, NTSB may take between 18-24 months before a final report is made. A thorough medical background check was involved before another footnote was added to the report.
I held deposit #316, and gave it up due to price. I flew the A5 and was blown away - it’s an amazing plane. Anyone that says otherwise hasn’t flown it: the A5 does what it does incredibly well, and was certainly the most fun I’ve had in 30 years of flying. Are there a handful of buyers out there who have so much money that they don’t care about the price? Sure. Are there 250 a year,? No. Maybe there’s 25. Icon will not succeed as a business - the new CEO blames lack of manufacturability for the pricing, but that doesn’t take you from $150K to almost $400K. Excessive overhead capacity does. Icon will likely be bought out of bankruptcy by an existing industry player and existing investors will take a loss. The market for the A5 is somewhere around $225K imho. Anyone buying now at $389 needs to be comfortable with that kind of depreciation. I look forward to buying one on the used market.
Good perspective on it, and totally agree they are going to fail. I was really surprised how much they have increased, having last seen pricing at Oshkosh the first years they attended. The whole point the sprit category is that it is somewhat affordable and a good amount less than something like a 172. Why would I want a plane crippled by the sport category limitations at the current price of the A5? I also cannot figure why it is so expensive. Isn't a typical home build about 2000 hrs of work for a similar construction style? Paying a laborer $30 an hour, which should be possible, only adds up to 60K, the materials and engine maybe 30K? Overhead 10K. 150K should still have made them a 30% margin. What are they doing with all the money from a 400K+ price... Also it should not take a factory nearly as long as a home builder. They have everything setup to do the process quickly. So even if my wage estimate is off by a good margin, the the costs are still reasonable. It is a neat plane. Unfortunate it is in this situation.
I remember the time when the A5 was supposed to be a sport car price, around $150,000... we’re slowly seeing the Porsche priced plane becoming a Bugatti Priced plane
I remember when they start it was 80k so yeah, out of reach! Vern their rep said most of their customers are the guys with the TBM or Pilatus and want something “fun” to fly or the rich guy wanting a Jet Ski with wings!
@NonyaBusiness! i mean a cessna 172 is 300k+ new, so I don't see how half that would be "too much" Yeah maybe its "too much" for you, but "you" aren't who this plane is for. Sorry. Would it be awesome if it was lower? yeah!
I just picked up the game the other day and I just love this plane. It looks like a futuristic flying car. I didn't know anything about this plane before (i'm not a pilot), but if I had the kind of cash to buy one in real life I would :-)
I’m an ICON A5 owner and absolutely love it. I did my Sport Pilot training through their school in Tampa last year and would recommend it. Their team is really supportive and I’ve had nothing but a great experience so far. Yes it’s expensive, but to me it’s been worth it 100%.
As one who has a ranch under the straight in approach to Vacaville I see these pass over occasionally. The move from a 200K plane to a 400k plane over the 10 years just kills 70% of their older potential market segment IMO. Nice plane, Way over priced. I'm not betting on a win in the long run for this company. Best wishes!!!
. Dang there up to 400 now? . im in winters and see them alot. pretty loud little plane compared to my local Flyers. Definitely know when there coming.
@NonyaBusiness! But, umm...this is a boat, and a plane, and it's meant to be low and slow and connected to the earth and sky. That's the new adventure market. Younger, less price sensitive...etc. Not everyone wants to be a Cirrus/TBM/Cessna Mr Technical flyer. I for one could see a need for a 22T and an ultralight with floats, or a tryke. Flying within the 500 feet, land, water...skimming the mountains...that's cool stuff. That's the stuff of being a bird.
@@davejohnson8960 There are more capable amphibians out there. This is aimed at really rich people who don't want to get a proper private rating and don't mind towing around a $400k airplane. Ya, there is a market for it. But it isn't very big. I'm also not betting on this airplane. It should be $100k new. $400k is ridiculous. If someone is truly price insensitive they will get a Caravan, decked out 182 or 206 or a variety of other real airplanes.
(Cough:) , I noticed that too, Paul's too kind, not to ask again,.. I would have taken the ruler off the desk and hit the back of the guys hand with it; ''I said WUT DOES IT COST?!!) :)
There are many other options for buyers in this economic level. Why spend $400,000 on a vehicle with such poor practical performance and so many restrictions? Within 4 years Icon will be out of the A5 business.
Great report, Paul! Keep up the great videos! I had deposit # 1303. At one point I believe they had 2400 ish deposits. Flew the airplane. It is a great flying and well engineered airplane. The accidents are likely not design flaws. (Official reports still pending). It is a FANTASTIC airplane. They offered me delivery close to a year ago. Since they just delivered #100, that means 1000+ people (like me) gave up their delivery spots (and, like me, may have asked for their deposits back). (ie. They LOST over 90% of their deposits!!) The sole reason is the price. When I put my deposit down it was $189,000. They could probably still sell the plane for $200,000 -$240,000. But NOT $389,000!!! (Its competition is all under $200,000).(Also, the buyers agreement was very restrictive and may have turned some buyers away.) The CEO states that they could ramp up to 250 airplane produced a year for NO ADDITIONAL CASH. So why not lower the price, double or triple or 10X your volume (for no additional cash)? It is sad. It looks like this company me be like many other upstarts that have occupied the "big top" at Oshkosh upon introduction, only to slowly fade away. (Maybe they have too much debt from all the early advertising?)
Great video! Their training is first rate with skilled pilots. I was also impressed with their course books. Very well written and detailed explanations. ICON production is up and expanding with new certification. Great plane for the mission it was built for. Yes cost is high compared to used market of 30yr old planes, but premium light sports are in the same price range. Don’t forget, a new Cirrus is 1.3mil. All new premium planes are unfortunately expensive. Kit modeled planes will always be cheaper, but lack the finish detail. Choice is a good thing. Finally, new 4-blade prop gives great takeoff pep and saves 10lbs. Combine with VG mod gives 490lbs useful load. Paul should come back for a second look! 😀
It always amazes me, the stamina and commitment people are capable of, bringing something like this to market. The years of development filled with pitfalls, failures and engineering problems. With volumes of money and time, to finally refine it to a successful and marketable product.
This plane is still available for $150,000.00. It's called a Sea Rey. No, it doesn't look quite as sexy, but it flies exactly the same mission, and the company has a much greater chance of being around in 10 years (or 5, or 1) than Icon.
Simply put, Icon management had little to no idea what was actually involved in aircraft design and production. That says a lot, and not a lot of good.
A plane that entices new pilots to spend more time at low altitude low speed near obstacles.. Expect insurance rates to climb as more and more accidents occur
Dave mentions Icon's _target operating environment:_ "low altitude, low speed near obstacles," causing aviators to think of shoreline terrain, trees, structures, etc. Experienced mariners hear "blah blah blah near obstacles," and wonder how many pilots know how to read the water for submerged rocks. There's also the issue of shipping channels, buoys, daybeacons, small craft, etc. These are cool little aircraft, but they're going to invite a host of problems.
This aircraft, given its unique capabilities, would be excellent for me living on an island in Lake Michigan. I could literally taxi up to my backyard in the harbor. Problem is, the price has become insane for what you get. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who lives on the water is filthy rich. My house was originally my cabin in a working class fishing town. It's still not a rich area, and while I'm better off than before, I'm still not a rich man. For the many hundreds of thousands of dollars difference, to say nothing of insurance and other miscellaneous costs... Well, I'll just stick with my 40+ year old Citabria and a 5 minute drive to and from the airport in a beat up old pickup truck. All this talk about jetskis and so on.. Hell with the money saved NOT buying one of these I could buy 10 jetskis, a jetboat, a new pontoon, an RIB, a new roof for my house, a new truck, a... Well you get the point. It's disappointing, but that's life.
Yeah, when I heard them say "the plane wasn't necessarily designed for manufacturability" along with the fact their plan was to sell to people who aren't traditionally interested in aircraft and they build two factories to cope with the anticipated volume I cringed. Its kinda amazing they are still around given that attitude. Someone needs to make a genuinely cheap small seaplane like this, simple like a Cub but still with modern materials and avionics.
@@lobsterbark Right. I knew a fella who had a supercub on floats.. It was pretty badass and didn't cost him a ton. Kind of a pain to prop start while bobbing around and trying not to fall in. Lol. An old native American dude I know, retired fisherman, bought a used lake renegade for under 100k... It's way more useful than this thing, carries a lot more people/stuff, and has no issues at all with choppy water up on northern lake Michigan. If he had the money for a new icon, Dollar for Dollar, he could have gotten 3 renegades for the price of 1 icon.. Or just the one he has, and then have that extra 200k around to cover a lifetime of insurance, and maintenence on the renegade. I just don't see any market for this plane. I'm still happy just sticking to my Citabria with bigger tires for beach/rough strip/off strip landings.. If I need to be on the water that bad, I have a boat. And my Citabria + boat combined cost like 1/3 what the icon does. If I really need to take more than one passenger somewhere. I can rent something like a Cherokee or warrior from pretty much any local airport. If I need to haul a BUNCH of stuff, I guy I used to work for has a few Islanders. Those haul more than my diesel pickup. Lol. Again. No market for the icon other than rich people who want a silly toy. Which is unfortunately the demographic that tends to crash a lot. We already lost an MLB pitcher to this plane.. And remember how John Denver died.. Flying an equally ridiculous, impractical, and in my opinion, ugly Long EZ.
@@blackhawks81H Maybe it's dumb movie thinking, but I just like the idea of a modern flying boat. Not a seaplane, a flying boat. The more I think about the more I think some of the heavier ultralights that are legally not actually ultralights are what I'm asking for, but those always seemed fragile to me. Not that I can really afford something like that as just a toy, but it's a neat thing to think about.
@@lobsterbark Yeah, I do agree that would be very cool... I think the hard part is, designing something that's full on hull in the water flying boat. While still trying to be lightweight and somewhat affordable. That's a hell of an engineering challenge. You could do lightweight and strong, using carbon fiber, but then there goes the price. Material science is always advancing though, some of that stuff that was space age ungodly expensive 20 years ago is pretty affordable now.. So maybe just with time it'll happen as it becomes more economically viable.
@@blackhawks81H Thinking about how to do that make me wanna build it. Thinking about how the Grumman Goose solved the problems of building a flying boat, and how the Icon does, and how to use modern technology to build a more efficient Goose. I understand why people build RC planes.
In the 1970s/1980s I had the privilege of traveling in "flying boats" from St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands to the neighboring islands. The Pilots enjoyed flying over the sunbathing Cruise Ship passengers and dousing them with castoff water from ocean takeoffs. Good clean fun!...
I've been following this plane for 10 years. If this CEO thinks he will sell these for 400K-500K this company will go away. Mismanaged, first mistake build them in CA. They priced themselves out of the market, just listen to this CEO.
But they are selling to people that don't care about the price. Just like you don't care when you pay $1 for a can of Coke or bottled water. Same reasoning behind a $140,000 Tesla. In many parts of the world, we now have an uber-economy where some percentage of people have more money than they can get rid of. In my neighborhood, Lamboghinis that sell for $300,000 to $550,000 are buzzing around all over the place. A two seater car with 500 to 750HP stuck in traffic.
@@davejohnson8960 The performance is poor, especially for someone with money. It would be different if it had performance, this is way overpriced and underpowered, and no glass. If you design something at 129k and it ends up at 400k+ you messed up.
@@publicmail2If performance is just horsepower, then yes. But in my two-brain-cell world, I see performance as a function of everything that you can do with a bird. Folding it up and taking it home, or moving it around, or shipping it to Hawaii, is a big bonus, and so is the water or land landing option. Glass would be nice, but a tablet with Foreflight fixes that. I'm not saying it's everything, and for now it's pricey. But all things considered, this is a cool plane. They are pushing the design envelope and I admire that. Low and slow, and connected to land and/or water is...a thing. You don't get that with a TBM or SR22. But you might be able to get it with tryke or ultralight. In either case, aviation (access to the third dimension) needs to grow. It needs to be fun and attractive to a whole new mind set other than the highly technical VFR/IFR in the 172/185/Cirrus stuff.
Icon has questions to answer. But, when one looks at their actual accident facts, It really does not seem to be related to the airplane. I think it is related to a badly advised advertising campaign, suggesting that it was a flying Jet Ski. Dumb approach, encouraging the wrong approach to flying an aircraft. My belief, is that the plane is excellent, with a good, safety minded pilot at the controls.
Leggo My Ego How many hours in your view are required for someone to be an experienced pilot? Roy reportedly had 700 total hours in his log book. A non-sea plane light sport license minimum is 20 hours.
@@dreamcreator2552 No he didn't, at least according to his A5 promotional video he never got his PPL, only light sport on the A5, because MLB contracts prohibited him from piloting his own planes. Watch the first few seconds of it here at this link where he says it: ua-cam.com/video/CO9dIyNM_9Q/v-deo.html
@@2011blueman Actually, it's all public record (note that Roy's father is also a ATP, with many type ratings.) Roy's ratings: PRIVATE PILOT AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE SPORT ENDORSEMENT(S) AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE SEA
I remember all the hoopla about this aircraft when it first came along, not least the price. Then it started going up - and up - and up. At nearly $400,000 it's certainly way beyond the 'everyman' concept they originally pitched it to, and when it boils down to it, you can buy a hell of a decent GA plane for that kind of money, versus a little two-seat amphibian with a range of 300 miles that was originally supposed to have a DIY build concept involved. And did I miss something in the bit about training flights? They said six flights? When I learned to fly gliders back in Australia years ago there was no way in hell I would have been considered near ready after only half a dozen training flights - and my very experienced instructor considered me one of the most natural pilots he'd trained. I know these things are sold under the 'as easy as driving a car' concept, but I'd like to think there's more involved in the training. I was skimming a little bit through the clip, so maybe I missed something.
Maybe Icon should link up with an auto manufacturer for production help. There has to be a way to produce these planes cheaper while maintaining or increasing safety and quality. I want to see the company succeed. Such a cool aircraft!
I could see them linking up with Toyota honestly! They have the best in industry safety/quality - and continue to drive the 'adventure' narrative with their SUV and truck lines
I don't know.... It says the A5 is _NOT_ a toy.... but I can't lose the feeling it's nothing but a toy. the range isn't superb, you have not much of storage space and even if you had, the loads with 2pax wouldn't allow for much exactly... I'm sure it's a fun amphib but to me it still remains sort of a toy...
100%. Serves no purpose beyond personal transportation but is more expensive than a more reasonable plane in exchange for extra fun and fancy. Also is perfectly supported by the guy talking about how its not designed for efficient manufacturing but performance (not the useful kind afaik) and looks. Thats how you make toy vehicles, not whatever "Not a toy" is supposed to be instead. Also kinda telling that they never specify what exactly it is beyond "not a toy". I think "not a stunt-plane" would have been far superior wording, considering thats what they seem to be worried about.
Hearing that Icon has a training facility in Vacaville, CA brought this to mind: While rowing on Lake Berryessa the other day, I saw what I am sure was an Icon coming and going. I was too far East on the Putah Creek Arm to observe the area where the float planes usually operate.
Thanks for the thorough reporting. I understand some of the A5 haters, but personally am rooting for the company. I believe they have accomplished much in aviation, and hope they find a way to stay in business and produce great aircraft. I even made an Icon A5 purchase at Oshkosh in 2016 (a nice hat:)
The world's most-expensive LSA, by a factor of three. What is the market for a $400k LSA? And if they cannot sell very many at that price, will they just keep doubling the price?
Definitely doesn't leave much for scale. Prices generally go down as numbers of production units increase. Not the case in this model. 2 production plants AND producing in one of the most expensive states has to be taking a big chunk out of their overhead budget.
NonyaBusiness! I go to a college with a fairly large aviation school and the planes people are building hours in here are rental 172s and warriors or very old cherokees from the 60s. Anything else is just way too expensive.
The concept is interesting although the Rotax does not put out enough power & thrust for a 1500+ lbs. aircraft. I would rather have an AirCam with its 2 engines. I love how he mentioned 'flying the wing'. That's how you fly all airplanes & gyroplanes. Better yet, forget water landings and buy a Pitts Special. Way more fun.
This was the best Icon A5 video I have seen & I have seen about 25 or so .Do you if there was any fallout as far A5's landing on Berryessa or where on the lake they now can land? I would imagine they want to keep planes out of the cove area now. I wish the price was still $139,000 instead of what it a swelled too but I know supply & demand. Great job with all the information on this video. Thank you.
Saw them at Oshkosh. Felt like they where still marketing to non-pilots, which to me is absurd since this is the most technically demanding type of non-military/coast guard flying you can find. I seriously looked at them for my lake house when they first came out and were much cheaper. After all the deaths in 2017, the long supposed waitlist, and looking at the contract, I went to the more traditional and more expensive xcub with floats. Frankly I'm not that surprise that their order book was filled with ghost deposits.
"all the deaths" were concluded by a national investigative body to be nothing but pilot error... I assume you also may feel error prone -- which should be a considerable factor in a buying decision. thank you for keeping our skies safer!
As to start up pricing, it seems Icon and Vern Rayburn fell into the same hole. Should be an example, it's going to realistically cost you three times what you think it will in your best estimates! I can't see spending $400,000 on what amounts to a 'toy', even if Icon plainly says that it's not one. I say that because of it's limited payload capacity and limited range, as well as VFR only capability. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that, Piper Cubs did it for decades, and the follow ons still do. While they may not be a seaplane, or amphibian, a fully certified Carbon Cub SS is only about half the cost
@@davejohnson8960 Sure, I could be very specific. Why? Simply because you seem to have the desire to play with me. For starters here is an awesome little airplane that initially was advertised to sell for under 150K, you dish out the required 5K deposit and then NOTHING. The price continues to skyrocket and your 5K has been in an escrow account doing NOTHING for you. Let's say you are 1 in roughly 120 -150 that finally gets your cute little airplane at an above expected price of course, you now sign the purchase papers in which a clause states that in ten years, no matter the time on the aircraft, Icon has to perform an airframe overhaul at a current CLAIMED price of 15K. Do you see where this going? I'm not even going to get into the poor flight training these recreational pilots are receiving. Some things are an asset, others a liability which brings me to insurance with all the incidents and accidents. Best thing when you have no clue is to stay out of the water, it can get very hot, and you might just make the fish smell funny. :) Icon, the perfect name.
I love the way this plane looks. I love all of the features contained in this plane. But.... The price hike, the contract terms.... Just really feels more like a Microsoft move, you know, somthing like "airplane as a service". And TBH, I just don't see "people new to aviation" dropping $400k, to be put on a waiting list, to get their first airplane.
The original Icon A5 was intended to meet the light sport airplane category with people having zero flying experience and no pilots license. The sport pilot class required no ppl and restricted to light aircraft under a specific weight class to apply for sport pilot rating. At the beginning, this may have attracted many into the sport pilot community until pricing elevated to more than twice original costs. The Icon A5 is no more sport plane with a low entry price for sport pilots as it became an expensive entry into sport piloting. Add sea plane rating to non PPLs originally getting rated on land adds complexity to land then sea rating. This may be another case of too much (sport) airplane and too little pilot skills in the original marketing scheme. Not attracting the sport pilots with higher entry costs, it's not surprising for many to describe this as the rich man's toy being added to his collections of aircraft requiring a ppl and other ratings, buying the Icon A5 as a light aircraft for tooling around lakes and rivers nearby to have something to do. Stepping down as it were as opposed to stepping up for sport pilots.
Well it seems obvious but I'll say it anyway: They priced themselves out of the market with this airplane. It looks to me, a seasoned seaplane pilot, like a great airplane for what it is designed to do, but as good as the Icon is, the cost is totally disproportionate with the capabilities. At these prices they will soon run out of willing buyers, and they won't even be able to continue their reduced 4 planes per month production. It is a sweet airplane, and I'd love to own one, but not at that price for a plane that can't go anywhere and can't carry anything. As a comparison, I'll cite the Lake Amphibian which I have owned and been flying for 25 years. A good used Lake can be purchased for a quarter the price of an Icon. It can carry up to 4 people at 100+ knots, and has a range of about 450NM with reserves. Unlike the Icon, the Lake can carry multiple passengers plus baggage. Unlike the Icon, the Lake can fly IFR and can have an autopilot to make IFR more safe and comfortable. I have flown my Lake from my home in South Florida to far away places such as Newfoundland, Baja California, and Alaska. It's not practical to do any of this in an Icon, despite the 4X price. And the Lake can also do all of the fun local water stuff that the Icon does. The Icon is a really superb toy, but the market for $400,000 toys is very limited, and sadly Icon is about to find out just how small that market is.
The strategic blunder here appears to be that they are marketing to wealthy non-pilots, particularly those with more money than brains. That is a self-limiting market. Most of that demographic don't live beyond the age of 35.
@@saratogapilot6100 Yeah the "dads money crashing supercars" audience is rather shortlived and should never touch the controls of really any kind of vehicle. The whole "this plane is not a toy" part of the contract that should read "this is a seaplane, not a stuntplane" seems to be targeted specifically towards this kind of person.
25 Deliveries 6 Crashes 3 Deaths Including MLB Pitcher, Icon A5 test pilot and Icon A5 Engineer? *THIS SHIT BOX MAKES THE $39,000 MINI 500 HELECOPTER LOOK SAFE*
Appearence is everything. If the sales person looks like crap, Im walking out. If the trainer looks like crap, I'm walking out. Preception is everything.
This plane is my favorite in FS2020. I hope the additional exposure helps the IconA5 sales. If I were into buying a plane and could afford one...this would be a serious contender as we live in western Canada. Lakes everywhere. Great video thx.
This is a neat airplane; I love pushers (I jones to buy a 3I Sky Arrow for over a decade, but could never make it happen for various reasons). Based on my recent MSFS experience with it, it's an incredibly easy and non-complex airplane to fly. (I kinda wish it has a VSI though.) That all said -- it's slow, it's super expensive, and it's super expensive. I also think it needs a basic wing-leveler autopilot. That doesn't mean I wouldn't love to fly one though!
problem is on the west coast lakes are disapearing or gone and the fire smoke chokes you and visibility is zero and on the east coast theres flooding and storms with wild winds
@Guy Hamilton , you're writing comments as if you knew something about this aircraft, but you are just making misinformed assumptions. You watched the video in which the company's chief flight instructor explained to Paul how the rudder is canted one degree to the right. You then went off on a rant about her appearance and claimed that this statement demonstrates a lack of knowledge on her part. And yet, even when several people knowledgeable about the airplane have explained to you that her statement was 100% correct (it is a simple fact, the plane is designed with one degree of cant in the rudder - ask any owner!) you continue to post blustery comments claiming that this is not possible. Here's a suggestion: rather than continuing to make a fool of yourself, why not call up the company's headquarters and ask them whether the rudder is canted one degree to the right or not. (Then again, maybe you wouldn't believe them either? :-)
The closest I'll ever get to an IconA5 flight is in MSFS2020 .. Unfortunately their modeling doesn't seem too accurate. The stall characteristics of the real thing is much more forgiving. First time I stalled in MSFS, my right wing dropped like a brick. It's a very fun aircraft for virtual sightseeing though - amazing views ;)
I have to say I'm pretty amazed - that anyone thought this vehicle could be sold at $150k. That's half the price of a 911 Turbo - and this thing needs float, navigate, communicate, fold up, stow gear, and requires hours of training, none of which the 911 requires with ten times the production volume. What was this, a kickstarter? As much as I'd love to see this ship for much, much less than half a million, that "reality check" was definitely overdue.
Great video and well laid out content and presentation which really kept and engaged my interest. You do a very "neutral" report on the Icon, which is refreshing I think that ICON would make a great rental recreational aircraft, with proper training and currency requirements. Looks like a really fun aircraft to be able to enjoy what I assume is a rewarding and unique experience with flying a seaplane. I would be interested in getting a complete check out and then be able to rent the plane on occasion. I am also fortunate enough to be less than an hour from Vacaville and lake Berryessa.
This company has no interest in selling airplanes. They have an interest in finding gullible investors to keep themselves in a comfortable job for as long as possible. This is a pretty simple airplane. It does not take over $100 million dollars and ten years to develop. How dumb are these investors??
How do you know? In 1998 FORD spent 700-Million dollars developing the independent rear suspension that went in the Lincoln Navigator or whichever was identical to the Ford explorer known for rolling over, which had the solid rear end. 700-Million is like 1.4 Billion nowadays dollars. For what amounts to a bolt in assembly for a specific sub model of an already designed vehicle. Engineering is $100/hr. 10,000+ hours. Assembly of a prototype is easily 10,000 hours of tech time at $50/hr. So for any company to develop even it's first prototype airplane is easily 20,000+hrs which in ten people for a year or five people for two years. For a demo prototype. This does not factor in the building rent for a commercial hangar at $10-20K per month. The cost of machines and tools. Then it takes who knows how much additional engineering to develop the manufacturing process alongside the design. Every update and improvement requires entirely new molds in the case of carbon fiber, which can easily be 100K each, take several thousand hours to design and machine and assemble, etc. The automotive style dash they developed is exponentially more expensive and time consuming to create than the standard aviation panel which is a sheet with holes cut in it for the screen and insteuments. This dash and interior was probably 5-million in development alone. Then you need to hire marketing people, pay for promotional material and advertisements in magazines, etc. What did Cirrus spend developing their airplanes? And each one uses lessons learned from what was originally an experimental kit built, like a glassair. Then they made a certified plane, then another, and now a jet. But each one used lessons learned along the way, and none would have been successful if not for their kit built a back in the '80s. Icon could have started with experimental home built. Also, the price hike is almost certainly due to the accidents, especially when they take the lives of high net worth individuals who have families accustomed to million dollar a month type lifestyles and have a dozen lawyers on speed dial.
Very fair review of this plane. I have always liked the design, sporty, but it is not a sports car. I think more people are beginning to realize this. It's a plane. Yes an aircraft in the air. Maybe this is all you need to emphasize instead of getting people to sign 20 pages of legal forms so they cannot sue if they fall out of the sky. And yes, the price has to come down. LOL.
I'd buy one today at 200. Just picked up a new Benz in Europe for that same money. But not at 400. Not when there is a Cirrus to be had for similar cost.
Honestly, it's so disappointing that this aircraft gets such a bad wrap. Both major fatal accidents were 100% pilot error (the Lead Engineer and the baseball player) - pushing the aircraft past its limits and 'showboating'. The A5 is really getting into some new territory, and that's risky - since it was initially y being marketed as 'another toy for your garage' like Seadoos, boats, etc. For us new pilots (future pilot myself) - and I love that ICON is taking Sport flying to the next level. Now if only that price would come down back to earth...
I thought the whole idea behind the LSA catagory was supposed to be affordability. Seems like a lot of LSA manufacturers "just don't get it". P&M Aviation went into bankruptcy this year because they couldn't sell overpriced trikes.
You never own a Icon A5 you are tied to the company and they are not worth the effort. Look at the contract, they do all the maintenance and if you do not they can cancel your ownership. A terrible deal.
It would be great if someone could explain to me how a FlightDesigns CTLSi with the same engine, BRS and a Dynon full glass cockpit with 2 axis autopilot costs 180K and an ICON costs 380K.....How is this possible? To me that is the 200K question. Anyone care to try to answer how that works? I am genuinely curious since at 180K or maybe even 200K this thing would sell...at 380K....doubt it.
$389,000!! How in the world can Icon justify a price tag like that for a simplistic hobby-aircraft?? Consumers shouldn't have to pay additional $$$ for management blunders.
@@davejohnson8960 i would not be so sure about who they are selling it to. This whole "its not a toy, dummy" paragraph does not strike me as being aimed at professionals. Or really any pilot who would not mistake this for a stunt plane. And im no Tesla fan, since turning an iphone into a car is a bad idea imo, but they at least have more than a few sales gimmicks beyond the looks of the thing. Although to be fair, both suffer from short maximum range issues and are overweight for their respective class, so that comparison does make some sense.
@@davejohnson8960 I've no issue with AoA. I think flying the wing is a great approach. That said, I'm old enough to remember when Icon was all about redefining flight. Apparently, they forgot their own agenda and stuck with keeping it to "Cool Toys for Rich Boiz".
Saying with orders of 250 units a year we don’t need any cash means our brake even point is $97.25 millions a year. At the old price of $150k a piece the company need to sell 648 units a year to break even. As of today $400 k is a lot of money to buy an LSA seaplane that has a payload of 430 lbs and has a Rotax 912 that takes 2 persons at 100 miles per hour with fuel tank size of 20 gallons.
Excellent and thorough report Paul! Thanks again! I was very enthusiastic about the Icon A5 when it was first announced. It is too bad the price has soared and the useful load has fallen. I guess it is off to Brazil for a SeaMax!
If I had your engineering staff I would be designing a WIG craft 2 seat 4 seat and 6 seat with good luggage capacity . Because of only a boat licence and registration your production facility would not be BIG enough to keep up with the demand for delivery. The Philippines is starving for a high speed water taxi that does not bump off all the waves.
@@davejohnson8960 . Oh ok. I thought I just thought I would share these thoughts with you same as I did with Zenair. Thank you for your reply. Your aircraft is fantastic. I was always curious as to how efficient with low RPMs your craft in ground effect over water.
The Icon is basically just a toy with no real utility. Even if you're a millionaire 398K takes a huge bite out of your net worth. I restored a Kingfisher amphibian (flying boat). I had a total of 25K into it.
"A certain number of sea plane drivers will eventually become U-boat commanders"
I'm always entertained by Paul's humor!
I also like his style very much.
Let's not forget that there are also many (too many) single-engine-land pilots that become dirt diggers as well.
Really good comment!...I'm still not sure that crazy deadly aircraft can climb over 1,000 feet...Either way isn't it nice how they push that you forget you are in an airplane...Always a great thing to remember when you are flying.....Don't even understand how this company is still in business after killing their Chief Engineer in one of those insane "aircraft/seaplane/car"
@@richardfrancis5406 If I'm not mistaken, the Icon exec flew into a box canyon over water at low attitude, discovered no way out, turned but couldn't clear his turnaround. His death prompted Icon to put out a warning against low level flying over water close to land........ Roy Halladay died from low level flying over water, making steep turns. Witnesses saw him flying and leveling out when he went into the water. NTSB toxicological report states a number of drugs in his system but a final determination has yet to be made. Legal and illegal drugs will affect every pilot's decision making capabilities.
@The Infidel Yes but this wasn't revealed in the initial NTSB investigation until recently. As you know, NTSB may take between 18-24 months before a final report is made. A thorough medical background check was involved before another footnote was added to the report.
This is the best review I have seen for the icon A5. A well crafted piece of journalism indeed.
I held deposit #316, and gave it up due to price. I flew the A5 and was blown away - it’s an amazing plane. Anyone that says otherwise hasn’t flown it: the A5 does what it does incredibly well, and was certainly the most fun I’ve had in 30 years of flying.
Are there a handful of buyers out there who have so much money that they don’t care about the price? Sure. Are there 250 a year,? No. Maybe there’s 25. Icon will not succeed as a business - the new CEO blames lack of manufacturability for the pricing, but that doesn’t take you from $150K to almost $400K. Excessive overhead capacity does. Icon will likely be bought out of bankruptcy by an existing industry player and existing investors will take a loss.
The market for the A5 is somewhere around $225K imho. Anyone buying now at $389 needs to be comfortable with that kind of depreciation.
I look forward to buying one on the used market.
China will buy them eventually.
ICON controls their used market too.
Good perspective on it, and totally agree they are going to fail. I was really surprised how much they have increased, having last seen pricing at Oshkosh the first years they attended. The whole point the sprit category is that it is somewhat affordable and a good amount less than something like a 172. Why would I want a plane crippled by the sport category limitations at the current price of the A5?
I also cannot figure why it is so expensive. Isn't a typical home build about 2000 hrs of work for a similar construction style? Paying a laborer $30 an hour, which should be possible, only adds up to 60K, the materials and engine maybe 30K? Overhead 10K. 150K should still have made them a 30% margin. What are they doing with all the money from a 400K+ price... Also it should not take a factory nearly as long as a home builder. They have everything setup to do the process quickly. So even if my wage estimate is off by a good margin, the the costs are still reasonable.
It is a neat plane. Unfortunate it is in this situation.
Made in Vacaville now made in nexico
WoW... They have gone up that much...?
I remember the time when the A5 was supposed to be a sport car price, around $150,000... we’re slowly seeing the Porsche priced plane becoming a Bugatti Priced plane
150 would be a steal.
I remember when they start it was 80k so yeah, out of reach! Vern their rep said most of their customers are the guys with the TBM or Pilatus and want something “fun” to fly or the rich guy wanting a Jet Ski with wings!
@NonyaBusiness! it's actually "NOT A TOY." They specifically state that, and make you initial your comprehension of that in their purchase agreement.
sometimesifly_ it’s expensive, but still a toy. Just like every other recreational aircraft.
@NonyaBusiness! i mean a cessna 172 is 300k+ new, so I don't see how half that would be "too much" Yeah maybe its "too much" for you, but "you" aren't who this plane is for. Sorry.
Would it be awesome if it was lower? yeah!
Can't wait to fly this bad boy in MS Flight Simulator 2020!! Going to be so awesome!
Ok
Same! :D
Same here
I just picked up the game the other day and I just love this plane. It looks like a futuristic flying car. I didn't know anything about this plane before (i'm not a pilot), but if I had the kind of cash to buy one in real life I would :-)
I have it in the old MS flight sim on Steam. Can’t remember where I got it... It is a beautiful plane... car... boat.
I’m an ICON A5 owner and absolutely love it. I did my Sport Pilot training through their school in Tampa last year and would recommend it. Their team is really supportive and I’ve had nothing but a great experience so far. Yes it’s expensive, but to me it’s been worth it 100%.
Kenny Campbell lol no you’re not.
@@DanielTroyer He actually is an owner. He has a vid on his channel.
@kenny Campbell And.... that’s all that matters. Glad to hear you are happy !
Great in depth report Paul! Thanks for keeping us posted on Icon Aircraft. Juan.
You da man, Juan!
That dude never answered your question about how much it cost for the training
Of course not. He's the sales guy, and (cough, cough) it depends on the customer
's proficiency & currency.
Thank you for keeping the AVweb intro jingle.... Its near iconic status now. It reminds me of airplane knowledge.
As one who has a ranch under the straight in approach to Vacaville I see these pass over occasionally.
The move from a 200K plane to a 400k plane over the 10 years just kills 70% of their older potential market segment IMO.
Nice plane, Way over priced. I'm not betting on a win in the long run for this company. Best wishes!!!
. Dang there up to 400 now? . im in winters and see them alot. pretty loud little plane compared to my local Flyers. Definitely know when there coming.
@NonyaBusiness! But, umm...this is a boat, and a plane, and it's meant to be low and slow and connected to the earth and sky. That's the new adventure market. Younger, less price sensitive...etc.
Not everyone wants to be a Cirrus/TBM/Cessna Mr Technical flyer.
I for one could see a need for a 22T and an ultralight with floats, or a tryke. Flying within the 500 feet, land, water...skimming the mountains...that's cool stuff. That's the stuff of being a bird.
NonyaBusiness! Na carbon cub for me, sub 300k, fast, low stall speed and more usegul
@@davejohnson8960 There are more capable amphibians out there. This is aimed at really rich people who don't want to get a proper private rating and don't mind towing around a $400k airplane. Ya, there is a market for it. But it isn't very big. I'm also not betting on this airplane. It should be $100k new. $400k is ridiculous. If someone is truly price insensitive they will get a Caravan, decked out 182 or 206 or a variety of other real airplanes.
@@BonanzaPilot Hold on. Icon A5 throws in 2 coffins for that price.
Be wary when the company prez has such a hard time saying points that should be obvious and straight forward to communicate.
Thanks 4 great report !
4:00 Paul asked the important question, the costs involved. It was not answered!
(Cough:) , I noticed that too, Paul's too kind, not to ask again,..
I would have taken the ruler off the desk and hit the back of the
guys hand with it;
''I said WUT DOES IT COST?!!) :)
“U boat commanders” had us laughing! Great video
Yep. Straight outta Risky Business. When Cruise sunk a German car and it actually made sense.
I am skeptical that market exists to the degree that Icon will need to remain survivable.
There are many other options for buyers in this economic level. Why spend $400,000 on a vehicle with such poor practical performance and so many restrictions? Within 4 years Icon will be out of the A5 business.
Another excellent report done by Paul - definitely didn't pull any punches on the Icon...
I bet they agreed to that before filming.
Great report, Paul! Keep up the great videos!
I had deposit # 1303. At one point I believe they had 2400 ish deposits. Flew the airplane. It is a great flying and well engineered airplane. The accidents are likely not design flaws. (Official reports still pending). It is a FANTASTIC airplane.
They offered me delivery close to a year ago. Since they just delivered #100, that means 1000+ people (like me) gave up their delivery spots (and, like me, may have asked for their deposits back). (ie. They LOST over 90% of their deposits!!)
The sole reason is the price. When I put my deposit down it was $189,000. They could probably still sell the plane for $200,000 -$240,000. But NOT $389,000!!! (Its competition is all under $200,000).(Also, the buyers agreement was very restrictive and may have turned some buyers away.)
The CEO states that they could ramp up to 250 airplane produced a year for NO ADDITIONAL CASH. So why not lower the price, double or triple or 10X your volume (for no additional cash)?
It is sad. It looks like this company me be like many other upstarts that have occupied the "big top" at Oshkosh upon introduction, only to slowly fade away. (Maybe they have too much debt from all the early advertising?)
Great video! Their training is first rate with skilled pilots. I was also impressed with their course books. Very well written and detailed explanations.
ICON production is up and expanding with new certification. Great plane for the mission it was built for. Yes cost is high compared to used market of 30yr old planes, but premium light sports are in the same price range. Don’t forget, a new Cirrus is 1.3mil. All new premium planes are unfortunately expensive. Kit modeled planes will always be cheaper, but lack the finish detail. Choice is a good thing.
Finally, new 4-blade prop gives great takeoff pep and saves 10lbs. Combine with VG mod gives 490lbs useful load.
Paul should come back for a second look! 😀
It always amazes me, the stamina and commitment people are capable of, bringing something like this to market. The years of development filled with pitfalls, failures and engineering problems. With volumes of money and time, to finally refine it to a successful and marketable product.
This plane is still available for $150,000.00. It's called a Sea Rey. No, it doesn't look quite as sexy, but it flies exactly the same mission, and the company has a much greater chance of being around in 10 years (or 5, or 1) than Icon.
Simply put, Icon management had little to no idea what was actually involved in aircraft design and production. That says a lot, and not a lot of good.
A plane that entices new pilots to spend more time at low altitude low speed near obstacles..
Expect insurance rates to climb as more and more accidents occur
Dave Shaw very good point. Low and slow is dangerous.
And they especially market towards the "idiot playboy" market - selling them at the same dealers who sell supercars.
What about the plane encourages low altitude flying?
Dave mentions Icon's _target operating environment:_ "low altitude, low speed near obstacles," causing aviators to think of shoreline terrain, trees, structures, etc.
Experienced mariners hear "blah blah blah near obstacles," and wonder how many pilots know how to read the water for submerged rocks.
There's also the issue of shipping channels, buoys, daybeacons, small craft, etc. These are cool little aircraft, but they're going to invite a host of problems.
This aircraft, given its unique capabilities, would be excellent for me living on an island in Lake Michigan. I could literally taxi up to my backyard in the harbor. Problem is, the price has become insane for what you get. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who lives on the water is filthy rich. My house was originally my cabin in a working class fishing town. It's still not a rich area, and while I'm better off than before, I'm still not a rich man. For the many hundreds of thousands of dollars difference, to say nothing of insurance and other miscellaneous costs... Well, I'll just stick with my 40+ year old Citabria and a 5 minute drive to and from the airport in a beat up old pickup truck. All this talk about jetskis and so on.. Hell with the money saved NOT buying one of these I could buy 10 jetskis, a jetboat, a new pontoon, an RIB, a new roof for my house, a new truck, a... Well you get the point. It's disappointing, but that's life.
Yeah, when I heard them say "the plane wasn't necessarily designed for manufacturability" along with the fact their plan was to sell to people who aren't traditionally interested in aircraft and they build two factories to cope with the anticipated volume I cringed. Its kinda amazing they are still around given that attitude.
Someone needs to make a genuinely cheap small seaplane like this, simple like a Cub but still with modern materials and avionics.
@@lobsterbark Right. I knew a fella who had a supercub on floats.. It was pretty badass and didn't cost him a ton. Kind of a pain to prop start while bobbing around and trying not to fall in. Lol. An old native American dude I know, retired fisherman, bought a used lake renegade for under 100k... It's way more useful than this thing, carries a lot more people/stuff, and has no issues at all with choppy water up on northern lake Michigan. If he had the money for a new icon, Dollar for Dollar, he could have gotten 3 renegades for the price of 1 icon.. Or just the one he has, and then have that extra 200k around to cover a lifetime of insurance, and maintenence on the renegade. I just don't see any market for this plane. I'm still happy just sticking to my Citabria with bigger tires for beach/rough strip/off strip landings.. If I need to be on the water that bad, I have a boat. And my Citabria + boat combined cost like 1/3 what the icon does. If I really need to take more than one passenger somewhere. I can rent something like a Cherokee or warrior from pretty much any local airport. If I need to haul a BUNCH of stuff, I guy I used to work for has a few Islanders. Those haul more than my diesel pickup. Lol. Again. No market for the icon other than rich people who want a silly toy. Which is unfortunately the demographic that tends to crash a lot. We already lost an MLB pitcher to this plane.. And remember how John Denver died.. Flying an equally ridiculous, impractical, and in my opinion, ugly Long EZ.
@@blackhawks81H Maybe it's dumb movie thinking, but I just like the idea of a modern flying boat. Not a seaplane, a flying boat.
The more I think about the more I think some of the heavier ultralights that are legally not actually ultralights are what I'm asking for, but those always seemed fragile to me. Not that I can really afford something like that as just a toy, but it's a neat thing to think about.
@@lobsterbark Yeah, I do agree that would be very cool... I think the hard part is, designing something that's full on hull in the water flying boat. While still trying to be lightweight and somewhat affordable. That's a hell of an engineering challenge. You could do lightweight and strong, using carbon fiber, but then there goes the price. Material science is always advancing though, some of that stuff that was space age ungodly expensive 20 years ago is pretty affordable now.. So maybe just with time it'll happen as it becomes more economically viable.
@@blackhawks81H Thinking about how to do that make me wanna build it. Thinking about how the Grumman Goose solved the problems of building a flying boat, and how the Icon does, and how to use modern technology to build a more efficient Goose.
I understand why people build RC planes.
In the 1970s/1980s I had the privilege of traveling in "flying boats" from St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands to the neighboring islands. The Pilots enjoyed flying over the sunbathing Cruise Ship passengers and dousing them with castoff water from ocean takeoffs. Good clean fun!...
I've been following this plane for 10 years. If this CEO thinks he will sell these for 400K-500K this company will go away. Mismanaged, first mistake build them in CA. They priced themselves out of the market, just listen to this CEO.
But they are selling to people that don't care about the price. Just like you don't care when you pay $1 for a can of Coke or bottled water. Same reasoning behind a $140,000 Tesla. In many parts of the world, we now have an uber-economy where some percentage of people have more money than they can get rid of. In my neighborhood, Lamboghinis that sell for $300,000 to $550,000 are buzzing around all over the place. A two seater car with 500 to 750HP stuck in traffic.
@@davejohnson8960 The performance is poor, especially for someone with money. It would be different if it had performance, this is way overpriced and underpowered, and no glass. If you design something at 129k and it ends up at 400k+ you messed up.
@@publicmail2If performance is just horsepower, then yes. But in my two-brain-cell world, I see performance as a function of everything that you can do with a bird. Folding it up and taking it home, or moving it around, or shipping it to Hawaii, is a big bonus, and so is the water or land landing option. Glass would be nice, but a tablet with Foreflight fixes that.
I'm not saying it's everything, and for now it's pricey. But all things considered, this is a cool plane. They are pushing the design envelope and I admire that.
Low and slow, and connected to land and/or water is...a thing. You don't get that with a TBM or SR22. But you might be able to get it with tryke or ultralight.
In either case, aviation (access to the third dimension) needs to grow. It needs to be fun and attractive to a whole new mind set other than the highly technical VFR/IFR in the 172/185/Cirrus stuff.
Icon has questions to answer. But, when one looks at their actual accident facts, It really does not seem to be related to the airplane. I think it is related to a badly advised advertising campaign, suggesting that it was a flying Jet Ski. Dumb approach, encouraging the wrong approach to flying an aircraft. My belief, is that the plane is excellent, with a good, safety minded pilot at the controls.
All the fatal/serious accidents have been experienced pilots. One tested positive for drugs.
@@Steve-dt4kg Roy Halladay wasn't an experienced pilot.
Leggo My Ego How many hours in your view are required for someone to be an experienced pilot? Roy reportedly had 700 total hours in his log book. A non-sea plane light sport license minimum is 20 hours.
@@dreamcreator2552 No he didn't, at least according to his A5 promotional video he never got his PPL, only light sport on the A5, because MLB contracts prohibited him from piloting his own planes. Watch the first few seconds of it here at this link where he says it: ua-cam.com/video/CO9dIyNM_9Q/v-deo.html
@@2011blueman Actually, it's all public record (note that Roy's father is also a ATP, with many type ratings.) Roy's ratings:
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE
SPORT ENDORSEMENT(S) AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE SEA
I remember all the hoopla about this aircraft when it first came along, not least the price. Then it started going up - and up - and up. At nearly $400,000 it's certainly way beyond the 'everyman' concept they originally pitched it to, and when it boils down to it, you can buy a hell of a decent GA plane for that kind of money, versus a little two-seat amphibian with a range of 300 miles that was originally supposed to have a DIY build concept involved.
And did I miss something in the bit about training flights? They said six flights? When I learned to fly gliders back in Australia years ago there was no way in hell I would have been considered near ready after only half a dozen training flights - and my very experienced instructor considered me one of the most natural pilots he'd trained. I know these things are sold under the 'as easy as driving a car' concept, but I'd like to think there's more involved in the training. I was skimming a little bit through the clip, so maybe I missed something.
I dream of the day when a plane like this could be affordable. Hope someday someone is able to reduce costs.
I think getting the A5 included in FS2020 is a coup for Icon. That airplane steals the show IMO. Extremely fun to fly and sightsee in.
Maybe Icon should link up with an auto manufacturer for production help. There has to be a way to produce these planes cheaper while maintaining or increasing safety and quality. I want to see the company succeed. Such a cool aircraft!
I could see them linking up with Toyota honestly! They have the best in industry safety/quality - and continue to drive the 'adventure' narrative with their SUV and truck lines
I don't know.... It says the A5 is _NOT_ a toy.... but I can't lose the feeling it's nothing but a toy. the range isn't superb, you have not much of storage space and even if you had, the loads with 2pax wouldn't allow for much exactly...
I'm sure it's a fun amphib but to me it still remains sort of a toy...
100%. Serves no purpose beyond personal transportation but is more expensive than a more reasonable plane in exchange for extra fun and fancy.
Also is perfectly supported by the guy talking about how its not designed for efficient manufacturing but performance (not the useful kind afaik) and looks. Thats how you make toy vehicles, not whatever "Not a toy" is supposed to be instead.
Also kinda telling that they never specify what exactly it is beyond "not a toy". I think "not a stunt-plane" would have been far superior wording, considering thats what they seem to be worried about.
Best review so far and likely ever...
I cancelled my order when they double the price, I’d rather get a newer DA40 for that price
Hearing that Icon has a training facility in Vacaville, CA brought this to mind: While rowing on Lake Berryessa the other day, I saw what I am sure was an Icon coming and going. I was too far East on the Putah Creek Arm to observe the area where the float planes usually operate.
Thanks for the thorough reporting. I understand some of the A5 haters, but personally am rooting for the company. I believe they have accomplished much in aviation, and hope they find a way to stay in business and produce great aircraft. I even made an Icon A5 purchase at Oshkosh in 2016 (a nice hat:)
The world's most-expensive LSA, by a factor of three. What is the market for a $400k LSA? And if they cannot sell very many at that price, will they just keep doubling the price?
and yet they tried to make it look like a car inside and out as if it's a logical next step up from your 35k commuter.
Just wait until you hear about the number of people that are price insensitive.
Definitely doesn't leave much for scale. Prices generally go down as numbers of production units increase. Not the case in this model. 2 production plants AND producing in one of the most expensive states has to be taking a big chunk out of their overhead budget.
NonyaBusiness! I go to a college with a fairly large aviation school and the planes people are building hours in here are rental 172s and warriors or very old cherokees from the 60s. Anything else is just way too expensive.
Cub crafters
I'm not all that savvy about the A5, but I'll watch anything Paul Bertorelli produces.
Another great Bertorelli video. I'd much rather watch this than work. PB is one of the best aviation journalists, IMHO. :)
Yep, hundred times better than Aero News Net and AOPA live.
Great video as always. Thank you Paul.
The concept is interesting although the Rotax does not put out enough power & thrust for a 1500+ lbs. aircraft. I would rather have an AirCam with its 2 engines. I love how he mentioned 'flying the wing'. That's how you fly all airplanes & gyroplanes.
Better yet, forget water landings and buy a Pitts Special. Way more fun.
We need a 200,000 plane..
There are several new planes under that, most of which can outperform the Icon, except in the water! (Vashon Ranger base model is $99,999.)
AND...what about a $1 million dollar 4 seater Cirrus...that seems to be selling just fine.
@@davejohnson8960 lol , im poor
Very informative and well produced video. Thumbs up.
This was the best Icon A5 video I have seen & I have seen about 25 or so .Do you if there was any fallout as far A5's landing on Berryessa or where on the lake they now can land? I would imagine they want to keep planes out of the cove area now. I wish the price was still $139,000 instead of what it a swelled too but I know supply & demand. Great job with all the information on this video. Thank you.
I think I’ll go back to my dream of buying an Ercoupe and just stick to the land.
Jeff Wingo Now that’s one plane I would like to see back into production with upgraded power plant. The mighty little Ercoupe
Saw them at Oshkosh. Felt like they where still marketing to non-pilots, which to me is absurd since this is the most technically demanding type of non-military/coast guard flying you can find. I seriously looked at them for my lake house when they first came out and were much cheaper. After all the deaths in 2017, the long supposed waitlist, and looking at the contract, I went to the more traditional and more expensive xcub with floats. Frankly I'm not that surprise that their order book was filled with ghost deposits.
"all the deaths" were concluded by a national investigative body to be nothing but pilot error... I assume you also may feel error prone -- which should be a considerable factor in a buying decision. thank you for keeping our skies safer!
As to start up pricing, it seems Icon and Vern Rayburn fell into the same hole. Should be an example, it's going to realistically cost you three times what you think it will in your best estimates!
I can't see spending $400,000 on what amounts to a 'toy', even if Icon plainly says that it's not one. I say that because of it's limited payload capacity and limited range, as well as VFR only capability. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that, Piper Cubs did it for decades, and the follow ons still do. While they may not be a seaplane, or amphibian, a fully certified Carbon Cub SS is only about half the cost
i can buy a cessna 185 amphib for less than this toy..
I'm not a pilot but this little plane amazes me!
I hope the company can weather out this virus.
I love how the interior looks like a new Volkswagen Jetta but like it’s an airplane
Cool airplane. Unfortunately, the purchase agreement contract and price is way out there.
Then it's not a plane for you, and your budget.
@@davejohnson8960 You have no clue.
@@tommidd8042 Can you be a little more specific?
I think I actually do "have a clue".
@@davejohnson8960 Sure, I could be very specific. Why? Simply because you seem to have the desire to play with me. For starters here is an awesome little airplane that initially was advertised to sell for under 150K, you dish out the required 5K deposit and then NOTHING. The price continues to skyrocket and your 5K has been in an escrow account doing NOTHING for you. Let's say you are 1 in roughly 120 -150 that finally gets your cute little airplane at an above expected price of course, you now sign the purchase papers in which a clause states that in ten years, no matter the time on the aircraft, Icon has to perform an airframe overhaul at a current CLAIMED price of 15K. Do you see where this going? I'm not even going to get into the poor flight training these recreational pilots are receiving. Some things are an asset, others a liability which brings me to insurance with all the incidents and accidents. Best thing when you have no clue is to stay out of the water, it can get very hot, and you might just make the fish smell funny. :) Icon, the perfect name.
Awesome video, can’t beat water 💦 operations ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
I love the way this plane looks. I love all of the features contained in this plane. But.... The price hike, the contract terms.... Just really feels more like a Microsoft move, you know, somthing like "airplane as a service". And TBH, I just don't see "people new to aviation" dropping $400k, to be put on a waiting list, to get their first airplane.
High quality content. Subscribed.
I think this aircraft is so cool!!!!! But $330,000.00??? I didn't see that coming. It's the ultra rich version of a jet ski !
The original Icon A5 was intended to meet the light sport airplane category with people having zero flying experience and no pilots license. The sport pilot class required no ppl and restricted to light aircraft under a specific weight class to apply for sport pilot rating. At the beginning, this may have attracted many into the sport pilot community until pricing elevated to more than twice original costs. The Icon A5 is no more sport plane with a low entry price for sport pilots as it became an expensive entry into sport piloting. Add sea plane rating to non PPLs originally getting rated on land adds complexity to land then sea rating. This may be another case of too much (sport) airplane and too little pilot skills in the original marketing scheme. Not attracting the sport pilots with higher entry costs, it's not surprising for many to describe this as the rich man's toy being added to his collections of aircraft requiring a ppl and other ratings, buying the Icon A5 as a light aircraft for tooling around lakes and rivers nearby to have something to do. Stepping down as it were as opposed to stepping up for sport pilots.
Yeah the paragraph talking about how "this isnt a toy/stunt plane" goes lengths to show who they expect to buy it.
Well it seems obvious but I'll say it anyway: They priced themselves out of the market with this airplane. It looks to me, a seasoned seaplane pilot, like a great airplane for what it is designed to do, but as good as the Icon is, the cost is totally disproportionate with the capabilities. At these prices they will soon run out of willing buyers, and they won't even be able to continue their reduced 4 planes per month production. It is a sweet airplane, and I'd love to own one, but not at that price for a plane that can't go anywhere and can't carry anything.
As a comparison, I'll cite the Lake Amphibian which I have owned and been flying for 25 years. A good used Lake can be purchased for a quarter the price of an Icon. It can carry up to 4 people at 100+ knots, and has a range of about 450NM with reserves. Unlike the Icon, the Lake can carry multiple passengers plus baggage. Unlike the Icon, the Lake can fly IFR and can have an autopilot to make IFR more safe and comfortable. I have flown my Lake from my home in South Florida to far away places such as Newfoundland, Baja California, and Alaska. It's not practical to do any of this in an Icon, despite the 4X price. And the Lake can also do all of the fun local water stuff that the Icon does.
The Icon is a really superb toy, but the market for $400,000 toys is very limited, and sadly Icon is about to find out just how small that market is.
The strategic blunder here appears to be that they are marketing to wealthy non-pilots, particularly those with more money than brains. That is a self-limiting market. Most of that demographic don't live beyond the age of 35.
What about the allegations that it is overweight/underpowered for a seaplane?
Marc Rodstein
Very well written and interesting comment.
@@saratogapilot6100 Yeah the "dads money crashing supercars" audience is rather shortlived and should never touch the controls of really any kind of vehicle. The whole "this plane is not a toy" part of the contract that should read "this is a seaplane, not a stuntplane" seems to be targeted specifically towards this kind of person.
25 Deliveries 6 Crashes 3 Deaths Including MLB Pitcher, Icon A5 test pilot and Icon A5 Engineer?
*THIS SHIT BOX MAKES THE $39,000 MINI 500 HELECOPTER LOOK SAFE*
Great summary
All these things are way to expensive for me to even dream of having.
Excellent review. I play flight sim 2020 and this is always my go to plane. Guess when I win the lotto I’ll bead on down for an a5 and some training 😁
Paul, this was a really good vid, thx
Appearence is everything.
If the sales person looks like crap, Im walking out.
If the trainer looks like crap, I'm walking out.
Preception is everything.
Awesome video
Question: "so how much will this cost"
Answer: "ya, so what we have is courses"
... Thanks bud.
This plane is my favorite in FS2020.
I hope the additional exposure helps the IconA5 sales.
If I were into buying a plane and could afford one...this would be a serious contender as we live in western Canada.
Lakes everywhere.
Great video thx.
Every so many years you have to pay extreme money to have the aircraft recondition they make you sign his paperwork when you buy the plane
Indepth is not a word.
Good reporting. Very interesting.
this is one of the aircraft which are my dreams to have
Cool
This is a neat airplane; I love pushers (I jones to buy a 3I Sky Arrow for over a decade, but could never make it happen for various reasons). Based on my recent MSFS experience with it, it's an incredibly easy and non-complex airplane to fly. (I kinda wish it has a VSI though.) That all said -- it's slow, it's super expensive, and it's super expensive. I also think it needs a basic wing-leveler autopilot. That doesn't mean I wouldn't love to fly one though!
Wow... Seems to me, with all the performance limitations and the cost... I don't think I would buy this even if I had the money. 😬
problem is on the west coast lakes are disapearing or gone and the fire smoke chokes you and visibility is zero and on the east coast theres flooding and storms with wild winds
The instructor is very impressive.
@Guy Hamilton , you're writing comments as if you knew something about this aircraft, but you are just making misinformed assumptions. You watched the video in which the company's chief flight instructor explained to Paul how the rudder is canted one degree to the right. You then went off on a rant about her appearance and claimed that this statement demonstrates a lack of knowledge on her part. And yet, even when several people knowledgeable about the airplane have explained to you that her statement was 100% correct (it is a simple fact, the plane is designed with one degree of cant in the rudder - ask any owner!) you continue to post blustery comments claiming that this is not possible.
Here's a suggestion: rather than continuing to make a fool of yourself, why not call up the company's headquarters and ask them whether the rudder is canted one degree to the right or not. (Then again, maybe you wouldn't believe them either? :-)
The closest I'll ever get to an IconA5 flight is in MSFS2020 .. Unfortunately their modeling doesn't seem too accurate. The stall characteristics of the real thing is much more forgiving. First time I stalled in MSFS, my right wing dropped like a brick. It's a very fun aircraft for virtual sightseeing though - amazing views ;)
I have to say I'm pretty amazed - that anyone thought this vehicle could be sold at $150k. That's half the price of a 911 Turbo - and this thing needs float, navigate, communicate, fold up, stow gear, and requires hours of training, none of which the 911 requires with ten times the production volume. What was this, a kickstarter? As much as I'd love to see this ship for much, much less than half a million, that "reality check" was definitely overdue.
Perhaps Icon could add an audible warning to pilots to check wheels down status at a set height, this could avoid plane to submarine transition.
Desgining the cockpit interior like an automobile dashboard was the first and last red flag for me.
Great video and well laid out content and presentation which really kept and engaged my interest. You do a very "neutral" report on the Icon, which is refreshing
I think that ICON would make a great rental recreational aircraft, with proper training and currency requirements. Looks like a really fun aircraft to be able to enjoy what I assume is a rewarding and unique experience with flying a seaplane. I would be interested in getting a complete check out and then be able to rent the plane on occasion. I am also fortunate enough to be less than an hour from Vacaville and lake Berryessa.
Got interested in this nice 👌 little amphi from Flight Sim 2020, I know it was in MS Flight that never took off
This company has no interest in selling airplanes. They have an interest in finding gullible investors to keep themselves in a comfortable job for as long as possible. This is a pretty simple airplane. It does not take over $100 million dollars and ten years to develop. How dumb are these investors??
How do you know?
In 1998 FORD spent 700-Million dollars developing the independent rear suspension that went in the Lincoln Navigator or whichever was identical to the Ford explorer known for rolling over, which had the solid rear end. 700-Million is like 1.4 Billion nowadays dollars. For what amounts to a bolt in assembly for a specific sub model of an already designed vehicle.
Engineering is $100/hr. 10,000+ hours. Assembly of a prototype is easily 10,000 hours of tech time at $50/hr. So for any company to develop even it's first prototype airplane is easily 20,000+hrs which in ten people for a year or five people for two years. For a demo prototype. This does not factor in the building rent for a commercial hangar at $10-20K per month. The cost of machines and tools. Then it takes who knows how much additional engineering to develop the manufacturing process alongside the design. Every update and improvement requires entirely new molds in the case of carbon fiber, which can easily be 100K each, take several thousand hours to design and machine and assemble, etc. The automotive style dash they developed is exponentially more expensive and time consuming to create than the standard aviation panel which is a sheet with holes cut in it for the screen and insteuments. This dash and interior was probably 5-million in development alone. Then you need to hire marketing people, pay for promotional material and advertisements in magazines, etc.
What did Cirrus spend developing their airplanes? And each one uses lessons learned from what was originally an experimental kit built, like a glassair. Then they made a certified plane, then another, and now a jet. But each one used lessons learned along the way, and none would have been successful if not for their kit built a back in the '80s.
Icon could have started with experimental home built.
Also, the price hike is almost certainly due to the accidents, especially when they take the lives of high net worth individuals who have families accustomed to million dollar a month type lifestyles and have a dozen lawyers on speed dial.
Very fair review of this plane. I have always liked the design, sporty, but it is not a sports car. I think more people are beginning to realize this. It's a plane. Yes an aircraft in the air. Maybe this is all you need to emphasize instead of getting people to sign 20 pages of legal forms so they cannot sue if they fall out of the sky. And yes, the price has to come down. LOL.
I'd buy one today at 200. Just picked up a new Benz in Europe for that same money. But not at 400. Not when there is a Cirrus to be had for similar cost.
Honestly, it's so disappointing that this aircraft gets such a bad wrap. Both major fatal accidents were 100% pilot error (the Lead Engineer and the baseball player) - pushing the aircraft past its limits and 'showboating'. The A5 is really getting into some new territory, and that's risky - since it was initially y being marketed as 'another toy for your garage' like Seadoos, boats, etc. For us new pilots (future pilot myself) - and I love that ICON is taking Sport flying to the next level. Now if only that price would come down back to earth...
Beautiful Plane.
just earned my SES rating in a Super Cub on floats - this is a sweet plane, but I don't why you wouldn't want a classic like a J3 or Super Cub.
BECAUSE....you can't fold them up and put them on a trailer?
@@davejohnson8960 haha you got me there - i'd say the interior is a bit nicer too
I thought the whole idea behind the LSA catagory was supposed to be affordability. Seems like a lot of LSA manufacturers "just don't get it". P&M Aviation went into bankruptcy this year because they couldn't sell overpriced trikes.
You never own a Icon A5 you are tied to the company and they are not worth the effort. Look at the contract, they do all the maintenance and if you do not they can cancel your ownership. A terrible deal.
Wow, I've never heard of such a thing
No wonder their orders evaporated
No
false
It would be great if someone could explain to me how a FlightDesigns CTLSi with the same engine, BRS and a Dynon full glass cockpit with 2 axis autopilot costs 180K and an ICON costs 380K.....How is this possible? To me that is the 200K question. Anyone care to try to answer how that works? I am genuinely curious since at 180K or maybe even 200K this thing would sell...at 380K....doubt it.
"How is this possible?"
Mismanagement.
Lawyers don't come cheep.....
ah, $139,000 to $389,000 - that WOULD indeed make the deposit holder list look 'substantially different'- sure would.
The price has become absurd. A half million dollars for a toy plane built in Tijuana? They are doomed
$389,000!! How in the world can Icon justify a price tag like that for a simplistic hobby-aircraft?? Consumers shouldn't have to pay additional $$$ for management blunders.
Because they are not selling to the "simplistic" market. Now...let me show you a new Tesla that sells for $140,000.
@@davejohnson8960 i would not be so sure about who they are selling it to. This whole "its not a toy, dummy" paragraph does not strike me as being aimed at professionals. Or really any pilot who would not mistake this for a stunt plane.
And im no Tesla fan, since turning an iphone into a car is a bad idea imo, but they at least have more than a few sales gimmicks beyond the looks of the thing.
Although to be fair, both suffer from short maximum range issues and are overweight for their respective class, so that comparison does make some sense.
Gear down water landing? Heard of a landing checklist?
Gorgeous plane, but $400K for a VFR-only aircraft is ludicrous. If it were IFR-compliant, it might be an option.
I'm with you on this one. Needs IFR and synthetic vision. Toss the AoA in the trash.
@@davejohnson8960 I've no issue with AoA. I think flying the wing is a great approach. That said, I'm old enough to remember when Icon was all about redefining flight. Apparently, they forgot their own agenda and stuck with keeping it to "Cool Toys for Rich Boiz".
how many would it take in a sharing for a six thousand investment per shareholder?
How much does it cost to do the courses with icon? Thank you very much for this lovely report 🌹
The Icon is a neat, good looking aircraft, but that price for the category is so very high.
Saying with orders of 250 units a year we don’t need any cash means our brake even point is $97.25 millions a year. At the old price of $150k a piece the company need to sell 648 units a year to break even. As of today $400 k is a lot of money to buy an LSA seaplane that has a payload of 430 lbs and has a Rotax 912 that takes 2 persons at 100 miles per hour with fuel tank size of 20 gallons.
Excellent and thorough report Paul! Thanks again! I was very enthusiastic about the Icon A5 when it was first announced. It is too bad the price has soared and the useful load has fallen. I guess it is off to Brazil for a SeaMax!
I wonder what Dan Gryder would have to say about the AOA centric training.
Interesting to see if they are still in business in another year ,all outs £ ,not much coming in ?
If I had your engineering staff I would be designing a WIG craft 2 seat 4 seat and 6 seat with good luggage capacity . Because of only a boat licence and registration your production facility would not be BIG enough to keep up with the demand for delivery. The Philippines is starving for a high speed water taxi that does not bump off all the waves.
You're confusing Engineering with in-bound Marketing.
@@davejohnson8960 . Oh ok. I thought I just thought I would share these thoughts with you same as I did with Zenair.
Thank you for your reply.
Your aircraft is fantastic. I was always curious as to how efficient with low RPMs your craft in ground effect over water.
The Icon is basically just a toy with no real utility. Even if you're a millionaire 398K takes a huge bite out of your net worth. I restored a Kingfisher amphibian (flying boat). I had a total of 25K into it.