Using an Industrial Disk Module in a PowerMac - it's AWESOME!
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
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Industrial disks on modules - neat little SSDs that come in tiny packages meant to fit directly into IDE or SATA motherboard connectors in industrial machinery - no bulky data cables required! But, how well do they work in old computers? Could they be a way better solution than CF card adapters? Not only are they faster, likely more reliable, and leave much more airflow room in the case - but they might even work out to be cheaper.
Let's install one, take a bunch of benchmarks against other modern retrocomputing IDE replacement solutions, and find out!
LINKS:
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🍎 16GB Disk on module: amzn.to/3H0ZSc7
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#Macintosh #Linux #PowerPC
I think you saw such a close race between media when doing the OS install because you were bottlenecked by the CD drive.
The secret to successfully using CF cards as HDDs is to use industrial CF cards.
Industrial CF cards like the Transcend CF220I and Transcend CF170 are designed specifically with usage as a fixed disk in mind. The CF220I supports SMART, Global Wear-Leveling, UDMA1-5, PIO, and true IDE mode. These industrial compact flash cards are also seen as fixed disks, not removeable cards by operating systems. These cards are full on IDE SSDs in a CF card format. Datasheets are available online for both models.
The best part is that the CF220I uses SLC NAND for ultimate reliability. The CF170 uses MLC and comes in larger sizes. I use them with all my vintage computers builds. In everything from a Intel 386 to a Pentium 4 these Transcend cards have always worked well.
Trying to use CF cards meant for cameras is a an exercise in futility. They often have flaky UDMA implementations and will always be treated as removable media by operating systems newer than Windows 9x.
Only quirk I see now is making this work in - the Mac Mini. And finding a way to power them in powerbooks.
And then, we will give it a Doug Score!! :) LOL! Nice one!
Hahahahahaha. FTW!!!
I don't get it
5:54 love the Doug Score reference lol
Coming from the OG Xbox modding scene, we only use 80 conductor IDE cables for SATA adapter to reduce cross talk. Systems often won't boot if we use the OEM 40.
I love how animated he is in these videos. You can tell he enjoys making this content and I enjoy watching. I don't have many old Macs, just one iBook G4, but I really do love the retrospective videos on older hardware.
Finally got an SSD to work in that damn iMac! I've seen these modules on eBay and Amazon and was thinking myself of trying them in a few vintage machines, mostly PC's since you get the smaller 512mb and 1gb modules to replace the hard drives in the older machines. Glad to see it works on Mac's, and if it works on those, then i'm sure it will work on an old Pentium PC!
I was just lucky! I got one of those startech on my iMac 500 and it just worked :D
I use a CF adaptor for my g3 wallstreet (with a broken hinge ): ) Its cheap, reliable and easy to set up due to its high compatibility and is always better than a failing hard disk
I use Compact Flash cards as hard-drives in my 1999 Lombard G3 Powerbook (32 GB) and my 2001 Titanium Powerbook G4 (128 GB). They're exceptionally reliable, and have none of the issues I've encountered with mSATA drives (Powerbook G3s freeze when drag-and-drop transferring files from a USB volume) and SD cards (G3s hate extracting files from an SD hard-drive).
First time I saw one of those DoM IDE devices was when LGR built his single-board 486. Fascinating concept.
"Hey Tokers, Action Retro here..."
when I saw the SATA to IDE adapter my first thought was Druaga1
@@TheRedCap *Daddy1
Those HP Thinclients also use those modules.
I kept mine around in case it could be of use again, otherwise I replaced it with a card reader to install Windows 98 or XP onto it.
You should try using an IDE extension cable for the iMac. The DOM should be able to just plug into the cable and that way there will be room for the optical drive too.
You missed an opportunity to use Doug score sound ;-) I used these for DOS 6.22 & Windows 2000. Running windows requires sending temp files to another drive to prevent wearout of the media. Don't know how Max OS handles temp files, but it is something to watch.
DOM emulates a spinning drive so it makes sense that they work on mac. The sizes are relatively small and most are eide you will still have some compatibility issues. They are slow. Which is fine on a water jet machine or a milling machine because they often use 486’s
"And then we'll give it a Dougscore" nice reference to Daddy Doug there!
The disc drive mounting issues with the iMac G3 can probably be better resolved with a short extension for the DoM. Yeah it's $7 more, but it's better than a dead iMac or failed cable hack.
I was looking at my lunch when I heard "doug score" and I had to do a double take. Thanks for the insight on this module. Im going to buy a bunch for my old macs.
Nice to see the quirks and features of this solution :)
Using SD to CF card adapters has worked the best for my PowerMacs. Standalone SD adapters had issues with latency and drive termination.
I really wish DOMs were more available(new) in the 44pin PATA format for laptops. Since some of those older laptops don't like even modern PATA SSDs. But for some reason DOMs are treated like mechanical drives.
That said, if you find any really good, and really small 44pin IDE to sata adapters, let me know. Since some 2.5" ssds.. if you open the up, the actual SSD is really small and most of the 2.5" drive is empty. So it would easily fit the sata ssd+ adapter in an old laptop.
The issue with IDE SSDs of any kind is they don't support TRIM, so they can't pre-erase memory pages that are no longer used by files to improve speed the next time those pages are written with new data. CompactFlash and other memory cards are different from SSDs in that the erasure of memory pages occurs in realtime, which reduces speed overall but avoids imposing a severe penalty in the future when a non-TRIMmable SSD runs out of empty memory pages.
If I had to run an IDE-based computer nowadays, I would use a IDE-to-CompactFlash adapter instead of an IDE SSD. I used an IDE SSD in the past and it was awful for the reason I mentioned.
Its cool to see Hardware im working with on a daily basis be so beloved on a Macintosh youtube channel, loved the video
I’ve had good luck using the cheap IDE to SD adapters in my vintage Macs, including my rev C Grape iMac. Where they’ve let me down is the G4 iMac… I’ll have to order a couple of these SSD and try them in the G4’s.
I've had good luck with cheap IDE to SD adapters myself, mostly in retro PC laptops.
The adapters are cheap, and so are the SD cards. Also SD cards are easy to get in various sizes, and can be bought locally mostly in addition to online.
Great thing about those DOMs are you can hit them for years with read and writes without missing a beat where you would have corruption and need to reformat a CF card multiple times to use one heavily for years.
I have a 16GB one of these lying around from some scrapped multi arcade board I found at a recycler, I really should try using it for something.
i have found that these exact modules are great for earlier IDE/PATA systems but underperform significantly compared to regular hard drives by the time of G4/PIII. I’ve even tried them in RAID and it’s mostly underwhelming.
But i LOVE that you can plug it directly into the mobo/controller socket with no cable! Makes cable management in older systems…. possible 🤓
I think the only reason these DOMs don't have larger capacities is simply due to their size. That and, being for industrial applications, they're built with tolerances in mind that traditional flash memory isn't so keen on.
OWC offers a 120GB SSD kit for legacy machines for about $60, and Transcend offers something similar to this DOM for about $20 with the same sizing. And as you were mentioning KingSpec, I remembered that I bought a 64GB PATA SSD from them a few years ago. They offer that for around $50, so better value per gig but not tremendously so. But I have had a KingSpec running in my IBM T23 for a long while now and it's been fantastic. The biggest caveat for a lot of these is that interface. Yeah, PATA is based on IDE, but it has physically more pins jammed into a smaller footprint for 2.5 inch drive bays in laptops, and people seem to struggle with that. Never got those stupid 44-to-40-pin adapters to cooperate either.
yep, I have a DOM installed on my old IBM APTIVA P1 200MHZ. Nice, small and fast. Just one issue, just one DOM per IDE connector. No possibility to connect two (master/slave) on one IDE.
I'm running a 120GB SSD in my iMac G3. I installed Tiger onto the SSD in my Power Mac G4 put it in the G3 and it just worked!
I've never taken the time to look into what these modules were all about, but now I wish I had! Great tutorial and information here. I suspect I'll order 1 or 2 of these to play with. Also, nice "Doug Score" reference 🤣
I'm almost getting misty eyed, looking at that beige G3. I remember unpacking one at work, brand new. with a 1710AV display. Heaven!
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I was struggling to find a solid msata->44pin ide -> 40pin ide combination and from what I have found so far, nothing worked reliably (and I am a couple of hundred euros into the game) on my 400mhz power macintosh g3 desktop. Everything works perfectly fine on my 386 PCs and up. I will give this a try, this sounds promising!
I REALLY appreciate the sponsor mention up front. Not sure why exactly but it seems honest, lol
Don't solder that cable... just buy two IDC50 connectors and snap them on to some 50 pin ribbon cable. (This is how we used to make IDE cables back in the day, except we used 40-pin/IDC40. These connectors are standard off the shelf parts. No soldering required.) ✌🏻
On the DigiKey website you can order flat ribbon cables that they crimp to order in a variety of types. No need to manually extend your cable or pay insane eBay prices for ide/scsi ribbon cables.
Was going to say the same thing. It’s very easy to make custom length ribbon cables. You just cut to length and clamp the connector block down wherever you want it.
Exactly. Making them at home is easy enough and just two days ago I saw that DigiKey will crimp them for you. So we can choose, lazy or not lazy. So many wonderful options.@@grahamc87
I love the Doug DeMuro reference. You, sir, are a comedy genius.
I got an mSD2IDE adapter for my P3 rig….godsend.
Being able to have DOS have access to an mSD made things like installing W98 allot easier, Ghost images, large file transfers, etc.
I’ve also use the mSD for temporary installs of things like 2000 and OS/2, since it sees the mSD as an IDE HDD and I’ve had 0 issues other than what you’d expect from an IDE HDD e.g. size limits. Although I have the adapter as secondary master, so I can keep the main SSD ‘safe’ by disabling primary IDE in BIOS.
Yeah I know it’s a mac channel, but I’m seriously impressed by it so far.
Those googly eyes are an important part of the unsupported Macintosh community at this point thanks to Tony!
Just put a 16 gig in my graphite g4. Working great on 9.2.2.
I just acquired a SuperMac PPC clone and was looking for something to replace the IDE drive. This is perfect timing.
This is great! Thanks for putting this together. I'm going to have to pick up one of these. Can you show some real world things like apps opening up with this module in the G3?
Yeah man I love the DOM module I replaced my tandy 1000 hardware drive with a 256mb dom. Its incredible
I see plenty of longer 50-pin cables on Amazon, and if you need something a bit shorter it’s fairly straightforward to get a longer cable and move the connector up a bit. You could also separate out the wires to get the added flexibility like on the Apple one.
Thiiiiiiiiiiis is a disk on module, and today we are going to show its quirks and features --- ooops wrong channel :P
Not sure what I liked more...the Doug Score joke or the total lack of explanation for the Doug Score joke. 😂
Thank's Sean That is A game changer I never heard of industrial module
This is an unrealistically cool theme, but only for computers with vertically located IDE ports.
In my PowerMac G4 FW800, it just won't fit, because when you close the lid, it will have no space between the bottom and the board (this is the only ATA100 port, the rest seem to be ATA66, which is much slower).
I would like to deal with this, as such IDM disks are available to me at fairly low prices.
Many thanks to the author for such a video!!!
Would those SSDs work over IDE if you used an 80 wire cable? I know the original Xbox, when upgrading to an SSD over a converter to IDE, you need to upgrade to an 80 wire cable. Obviously the Mac is a completely different system, and you might already have an 80 wire in there, but figured it was worth mentioning!!!
Why wouldn't it work, the 80 wire cable is still 40 pin IDE cable just with double wires to each pin. The only thing that the 80 wire does is to reduce crosstalk between the wires (better signal integrity) which usually helps out drive performance a bit.
@@madmax2069 I have no idea why, they just dont. its a known issue in the xbox community. 80 pin can also improve speed just a tad as well. im guessing it has something to do with the physical bandwidth of each pin. maybe 80 pins have more copper between the pins? just stating what I'm aware of.
@@madmax2069 after doing more research 80 pin DO provide higher speeds, which im assuming, the SSD and the converter(only certain ones work on xbox), require a certain speed to work properly? either way, 80 pin cables fix that problem(on xbox), so i figured id throw it out as a possible solution.
@@DeaseNootz they can but not always do, especially if you're already saturating the IDE controllers max speed (like on the beige G3).
@@madmax2069 awesome, thanks for the tip.
Interesting to see you got the industrial disk on module working. I had attempted this about 6 or 7 years ago and couldn’t get it working. I still have the thing somewhere and perhaps should try it again just for giggles.
The Hyperdisk ones are available up to 64 gig. 40 pin IDE male to female extender cables are available on eBay for a few $.
Two things, those green SATA to IDE adaptors are garabage. I've had no end of blue screens using them on my 9x machines. A Startech adaptor works great.
Second, you have to try the black SSD to IDE adaptors. Cheap, fast, and they seem to work with everything.
I had no problems installing a PATA to SATA adapter in my 2000 iMac G3 (thanks for one of your prior videos for this feat). It is working flawlessly. What I am struggling with right now is finding a slot-loading DVD drive to replace the malfunctioning CD drive. I've spent a lot of time searching all over the 'net for a compatible drive that will fit in the proper orientation and I keep coming up short. Love your content. Keep it coming!
Go to UsedMac, search up 661-2225. Sorry for the repeated notifications, and good luck getting the dvd drive!
@@nickfury1279 Thanks for the part#. I found a couple, but way over my budget. Found one on Ebay being sold for parts --I'll see if I can get that and if it does not work, attempt to fix it. LOL! Many thanks!
I had no idea they existed, now i need to get one and resurrect my old PowerMac from his slumber.
Good job. Happy 34K subs! I would be happy to see you with 100K at the end of the year :)
Cf cards are ide interface already, so whats going to limit speed is the cf card speed itself and bus speed, the sata ssd is maxing out the ide connection hence the quick install time, if you find a 266x cf card you might see a different result, there is also some Pata ssds out there in 2.5 form factor that will fully use the ide i have one in a laptop and it is very fast, i use a cf card in my retro pc because i can take it you and transfer files quick and easy
I'd imagine the reason you see so many for sale is because DOMs were pretty commonly used in thin clients.
There a couple companies that actually make PATA SSDs in 2.5" form factor so uses a laptop style connector. They generally cost 2x what an equivalent 2.5" sata drive costs
Hard drives store things in order which is why defrag is a thing. A flash card has files all over the place and can't be put in order so the hard drive will win every time. However even though it wins there it loses and so many other areas that Flash media will always win out overall.
Thanks for doing the research for me on the iMac. I have a 5 flavors G3 that has a hard drive that just bit it… I was looking at those same DOM modules the other day and will be picking them up
Very good, just the information I was looking for.. I am looking at the DOM for a couple of old IBM clone PCs.. Thanks..!
The 50-pin cable is standard SCSI, also commonly used on higher-end PCs in the 90s. I think I've got some longer ones out of a Xenix box around here somewhere.
I may have to pick up one of those disk-on-modules for my slot-loading G3, the CD drive cable won't be an issue since I replaced that with an internal USB floppy drive years ago!
Those industrial DOM SSD's use the same controllers internally as some CF cards, that's because both use the same IDE interface
Hey man. I love that you put a face with the hands. I catch as manyof your videos as I can. I have two blueberry iMacs, autoloader drives. One has OS 8 and other has OS 9, which hard drive failed on me just recently. I grew up with Mac, though I have used Windows as well since 6 or 7. I would to see you do something on an Onyx, Indigo or even an Indy unit, man you would be the bomb to work with real Unix. Shit's unstoppable. Again, I love your videos. Great job, great prod qual, and you seem to really enjoy this sort of masochism because it ends up satisfying when you become smart enough (dont take that literally lol)
I've got one of these Disk On Module units in my Reverse Sleeper 800MHz Celeron Windows 98 System that I use on my channel. It seems to boot slower than it did with a CF Card, but when the machine is up and running I don't really notice a difference between it and the CF Card; so I leave it in there for the same reason with it being cleaner and not taking up as much space.
It's not just vintage Macs, I have an HP Omnibook Pentium mmx laptop that won't detect any SSD adapters or CF cards either. But I have an 8gb hard drive in it. Maybe I will look into a disk on module... 🤣
Apple trying to herd all the Apple fanboys (and girls) onto their new, fancy-pants ARM silicon and here this channel is showing how we can all live quite comfortably on the Apple gear we already have - this is truly cutting edge retro computing!
I hope you use one of these as your /boot partition in the G5 NVME!
Well dang. Now I have more computer stuff in my Amazon cart...
It says MLC on the back, so it’s technically better than most flash these days TLC or QLC. Multi layer vs triple or quad layer cell NAND.
Couldn't you use an short IDE extender for the DoM in the iMac, to move the disk out of the way of the CD drive cable, instead of extending the CD drive cable?
We use there be a speed difference if i plugged the disk-on-module into an ide cable?
I've never had any luck using SATA to IDE, or MSATA to IDE adapters, or even 68 pin SCSI to 50 pin SCSI adapters. Always ends up with some type of corruption or damaged hardware. A true IDE SSD is the only way to go, or buy a later 80-120GB IDE drive.
I’ve been playing with Chrome OS Flex lately… I’m curious if you are planning any Flex shenanigans. If you do, I know it will be something fantastic. I’m grateful for your willingness to share your talents with the world.
Haha, before watching your videos with those CF card adapters, I more or less only knew exactly those SSDs! I was aware of those CF card adapters existing, but more or less considered them a idealistic pipe dream, not actually working IRL.
Funny!
Are the industrial IDEs using SLC flash though? Those things are probably designed to run non stop for 20 years.
I was wondering if you ever swapped a fan inside an old mac power supply since they are really loud, with a modern quiet one.
Someone's also a car nerd. Love it.
Oh no no no , you said it and now you need it, a Doug score
Heh " Doug score" do all my favourite youtubers watch the same channels as me 😂🤨😂
Just buy a short section of ribbon cable and the 50 pin IDC connectors from mouser or digikey and make your own cable of the exact length you need.
Best hands in the business
Now I wished that I kept that eMac. YellowDog Linux ran great on that machine.
Would love to switch my 68k Mac from a HDD to an SSD, it uses SCSI thought.
I still have two 68k Macs. I have the Floppy Emu attached to the Mac Plus and the SCSC2SD in my LC475. On the Floppy Emu I have boot drives for System 6.08, 7.1 and 7.5.3. On the LC475 the SCSI2SD boots to 8.1. They are not cheap and also due to parts issues can be hard to find now but they have been quite reliable.
The SCSI2SD even survived the death of my LC475 power supply with only corrupted firmware which I was able to restore. I also learned how to repair a power supply. :)
@@sinjinhawke I own a Performa 475 with a full 040 (a pull from a dead 840AV), 132MB Ram (found a 128MB stick for $5 so why not), with network and upgraded video memory, and a 2GB HDD. Also have an external LaCie optical drive for it.
I don't have any desktop macs that use IDE, but I use one of those mSATA to laptop IDE adapters in my powerbook G4, and it's quite fast!
Can you direct me to the adapter?
The most reliable PATA SSDs I've used are cheap PATA to msata adapters in a 2.5 inch form factor.
Wishing those disk on module things could be had in higher capacities. At least on the windows side, I use an SD to ide adapter because even in the best case, for Windows 98se, I could get the text portion of its setup to recognize and install to an ssd, but it's as if it actively refuses to finish the graphical part of the install. And even with a via board where there were sata drivers for windows 9x, it staunchly refused to let me enable DMA which gimped performance.
Those green SATA to IDE adaptors are crap. I had tons of problems until I bought Startech adaptors.
the deprecation of mechanical media really was a blessing wasn't it? all the space saved from not having those drives.
Nice might have to get a 16GB DOM for my Win 98SE retro gaming machine. 👍
I don’t know what the differences are between the tray loader and slot loader G3 iMac’s, but after your BSD video I was curious so I dug out my Sage green G3 slot loader that I’ve been meaning to resto-mod. I switched out the stock hdd with a Samsung 256gb SSD on a SATA/IDE adapter. It hasn’t seemed to be a problem so far. I was able to image it with MacOS9Lives’ image. Been having quite a good time hammering MacintoshReposotry’s FTP servers with game downloads. I even put a SATA extension cable on it and have it dangling out the back so I can easily dabble with BSD/Linux/MorphOS without worrying about blowing up my OS9 install.
Nice! Yeah I think it's just the tray loaders that are picky about drives
Sure that the problem are the adapters and not the size of the mSATA and SSD? The internal IDE of the G3 has problems when the first partition is bigger than 6 GB.
There are a bunch of these on Ebay as well, and they seem to be cheaper there..
Does the CD-ROM ribbon cable use the same standard pitch ribbon as the old 40/50 pin IDE/SCSI cables? If so it might be easier to carefully disassemble the connectors and pull the cable off, then re-crimp a new cable on that's the correct length. You can then carefully split the wires to make it more flexible like the old cable. It might also be possible to find the connectors themselves on eBay or Aliexpress, or possibly a regular electronics supplier.
What about its quirks and features :)
Thx for that, I have to try another thing on my G4-Cube. My adapter-solution with m-sata-ssd works only on coldboot, every restart leads to "?" that is annoying when you have a multi-boot-machine with yaboot an OS9.0.3/OSX10.2.8/YDL3 (beside YDL3 should work on R128pro accelerated (old threads on google) but I have not figured it out yet. now I am thinking about a DOM for my G4-Cube in order to get an always booting solution.
I hope you and Phil and very happy together.
Those Disk on modulators are neat little things
would love to see a DOM on a LC630
You know they DO sell CF adapters that plug right onto the MoBo, right?
Action Retro single handedly raising the price of this modules.. :)
I wonder if you can use the DOM on an one of the Indigo iMac G3...