I had correspondence with Jeff Cooper about several Scout rifles I built in the 1980s. I found him to be very supportive of various interpretations of his concept, such as my 7mm-08 Browning BLR, LH .270 Win Sauer 200 and LH.223 Rem. Kimber M84. I continue to think they are the best all around rifles, and still prefer using them; but with the Burris 2-7 scope.
Really enjoyed the video. Been pouring over rifle options and optics for a bear and deer gun next year. Have a preference for the magnums in a compact package. It boils down to a Savage 110 Brush Hunter 338 win mag. It’ll be a lot less recoil than my 6.5 pound pump shotgun with 3.5” turkey shells. Now it’s just down to the optic. Like red dots, but some critters I see are too far for a good shot with a red dot. Plus having magnification to zoom in in heavy brush and heavy timber will help.
I have a Savage "Patrol" rifle- .308win, 2-5X, box mag, sling, muzzle break, 20in bbl, misses on weight and forward mounted scope and iron sights but i can sucessfully use it the way Cooper intended. I won't call it a scout for the reasons Richard said. , i.e., I have too many cherries on my hill billy pie. But it fits the role and so I call it a "Patrol" rifle. Shoots tight and took two whitetails the first fall in the field, one was a snap shot while still-hunting the other just an average offhand seated under a tree. I love the rifle and Cooper was my inspriation. It suits my sense of history as a woodsman and a Veteran.
Ron, being the handloader you are. Why not do a video on the external and terminal balistics of the 130 grain Barnes ttsx out of a 308 Winchester. Ive seen a few other videos on the concept and would love to hear your take on it as a deer and Antelope load. As someone who loves the 308 because of its versatility I think it would be a good option for a one hunting rifle option. I only have a Winchester Model 70 featherweight in 308 and A Marlin 336 in 30-30 and dontl hunt with the 30-30 much because that handy featherweight just does most things well like a scout rifle lol. Even though it is not a scout rifle at all. Love you videos! Thanks for all your knowledge.
Thanks Jonathan. that is a pretty good idea, lighter copper bullets at higher velocities, but probably one that could get me in hot water with the authorities, so I'd likely put it on RSOTV.com.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Working on a rifle project for next year. I hunt in the South Carolina mountains where a lot of encounters average 6-30 yards, but there are quite a few areas that have been logged a lot and open up to 150-200 yards. I spooked a deer at 100-125 yards last week and I couldn’t make the shot since I’m using a shotgun. Been looking at red dots and scopes and scope seems to be the right choice. The Leupold XV freedom scout 1.5-4x looks to be a good choice, but I’m also looking at a more traditional eye relief option of 1.5-5x. What would you recommend?
@@20cameron1 Hmmm. With brush that thick I generally don't try to shoot through. Odds are bad for finding a clear path. But if you wish to yry, you could increase power. In open country I've easily hit the kill zone out to 400 yards at 7X. Be aware that as power increases, depth of focus decreases, so closer branches could blur out.
I tried several times to set up a scout type rifle, because I always thought the concept was very cool. I ended up switching them back, and mounted the Burris 2X7 LER on a pistol.
Ron, the podcasts and stuff are fun but honestly it would be really interesting to see an demonstrative video of how to run a practical rifle let's say in the mountains of your state in Idaho. Some ruck work and high angle shooting in terrain that is just like hunting situations instead of static benches or a flat range. This is where it would be fun to test out these concepts be they scout or practical rifles or optics and gear, employment of technique.
Good idea, Aaron. We'll see if we can produce that video one of these days. I've been thinking of doing a "How to Become a Deer Hunter" series first. Would you be interested in that?
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Of course that would be an good series. Despite having take some really nice animals I'm not in any way a good deer hunter by any measure. What I'm really keen on is improving my mobility, rifle fundamentals, and having my gear work for me efficiently. The cartridge debate stuff is ok but I don't worry much about it because I can manage with an 6.5, 270, or 308. Doesn't matter. If I go after larger heavier game I use an heavy loaded 30-06 or some form of an 338. I'm kinda agnostic about the cartridge talk and more into unlocking my potential and opportunities.
100% agree with Richard Mann, the Creedmoor is developing a reputation as a poor killer. I think it is that the ammo companies have not gotten the right bullets for it yet. Or maybe its just trying to get 600 yard bullets perform at 50 yards. Maybe it's just tall tails being told by people who don't like the 6.5 Creedmoor? But I have had all of one whitetail shot on my property with a 6.5 Creedmoor, that deer was shot at 65 yards with a 143gr and was never recovered! It was a guest hunter and that left me questioning the rounds effectiveness. But maybe I'm reading too much into that one shot. Later I spoke with a local deer processer who also was also questioning the 6.5 Creedmoor, and stated it was more like a 30-30 in killing power than other "standard Deer Calibers" He speaks to 1000's of hunters every year, and asks questions of each about effectiveness, and sees the results first hand. Maybe it's just something about hitting a deer with a bullet at close to 3000fps that spoils us?
I think it's a combination of limited bullet designs, poor shot placement, and overconfidence due to the "long range" of the cartridge. The average hunter just can't put a bullet where it needs to be, which is exacerbated by the bullet designs, and the long range potential of the cartridge leads to hunters trying for shots they have no business taking.
Whiteoaks, the problem with denigrating the 6.5 CM is you simultaneously slam the venerable 6.5x55 Swede and 260 Remington, both of which are proven a revered deer rounds that throw the same bullets at similar velocities. The 6.5x55 is about 100 fps slower, the 260 that much faster. Guys here in the west tackle deer, elk, and moose regularly with good success using the 6.5 CM. I've found it quite effective on mule deer, whitetails, ibex, red stag, tahr, fallow deer, and coyotes. No losses, but longest shot only about 350 yards. Oh, there was one 545-yard shot on a culling operation. I think the reported issues are no more common nor serious than similar with many other cartridges from 243 Win through various 300s. I've shot whitetails three times with 300 Win. Mag. before terminating them. Many similar stories. It's 90% the bullet and where you park it.
I do wish i bought the the mossberg mvp in 308 the 18 inch. Would made for perfect woods rifle. Im building my nephew a 308. May build the other nephew a 7mm08. The 308 will run 130 ttsx and 7mm08 will run 120 ttsx. Please do an episode on bullets yall used over the years would love it
More or less. The one rifle a soldier/scout could carry to do all things. Provide food, take out enemies at a distance, engage in a fire fight. A do it all tool suitable for bug-out, rough times, limited resources and options, woods shooting, longer range sniping, etc.
It will not do anything better than a specialized rifle....he said it. They both agreed. I personally LOVE the scout rifle...the look amd feel. But it's not gonna out perform a for ex 30 06 ruger american 22 inch barrel with 3- 9 ×40 for deer ..
If your only criteria between 6.5 creedmoor and .308 is that "it drops large game faster within a certain range", by that logic, you should be hunting at less than 100 yards using 8.6 blackout. That'll drop a whale in it's tracks! I think 6.5 is popular especially out west because of the wide open spaces. There's also the consideration that if you believe creedmoor is anemic, we now have PRC. You simply can't really get Cooper's opinion with today's options.
Im sure if Jeff cooper was alive and kicking today, the forward mounted optic would be ditched for a modern LPVO. He (Jeff) used the forward mounted optic because that’s what was available then. There is absolutely no reason to use an optic ahead of the action these days.. other than nostalgia. Is it a fun play thing? Yes. Does it have its place on the modern hunting or battlefield? Not really, no. Just my two cents.
Shucks, Skeletor, I never saw the value in a long eye relief scope atop a rifle in any era. A 2-7, 3-9 or even 4-12X provide more than enough field of view for me to get a shot on a running jackrabbit at 20 yards, a fleeing whitetails at 10 yards... I don't know about warfare applications, but I can't imagine my standard bolt-action mountain rifle with a 3X scope would leave me out of the action. I am, however, open to illumination should any long eye relief scope proponents care to expostulate and explain.
um... Cav scouts absolutely DO engage enemy platoons. the task of recon by fire and screen encompass that process. ATP 3-20.97. Marine Doctrine the scout sniper is used for fire support operations. Sometimes, you have to kill the sacred cow, in this case Jeff Cooper's dumb logic, which was outdated even when he was publishing it. Caveat. I do love the scout rifle as a general purpose packing/hunting rifle, and I do think that Jeff Cooper did a lot for modern defensive pistol shooting. However, his military provenance is overrated. He was aboard a battleship during WWII and his korean war exploits are vague and disputed. Either way, he would have been a field grade staff officer during those times, and not a grunt. He then became a community college social studies teacher. Cooper was more of a those who can't do, teach. Now, those people are valuable to any discipline, they help to build the base of knowledge and instruct the collegiate body. buuuttt, they are not the battle hardened experts that have to use the tactics.
Yes well, Cooper was also thinking along the lines of just a ranger of one or a few maybe. You can't compare what he was aiming for to the "cavalry scouts". There's differing elements of the fire team, in every squad of the cavalry scouts, just like there's different weapons elements in every other squad in the US Army, depending upon MOS requirements. I think Cooper was probably aiming for what he would want to have on hand in the situation when one do it all rifle is all that he is going to have around when he's not under orders to be participating in a calibrated military objective.
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I had correspondence with Jeff Cooper about several Scout rifles I built in the 1980s. I found him to be very supportive of various interpretations of his concept, such as my 7mm-08 Browning BLR, LH .270 Win Sauer 200 and LH.223 Rem. Kimber M84. I continue to think they are the best all around rifles, and still prefer using them; but with the Burris 2-7 scope.
From one old Armored Cav vet to another thanks for your service Richard.
The answer should be that it's not Cooper's Scout Rifle, it's my Scout Rifle.
Finally!
Someone admitted that the idea of a Scout Rifle is more romantic than practical.
Hate I was late - had to finish watching The Backyard Brawl baseball game. WVU folk will surely know what I mean - Great show and thanks!
Feels weird to be a stickler to a rifle concept that never can exist.
This is Awesome it’s made my night
Glad to hear it Pete. Thanks for joining us.
Great listening to you guys and I think I'm smelling that delicious hillbilly pie!
Really enjoyed the video. Been pouring over rifle options and optics for a bear and deer gun next year. Have a preference for the magnums in a compact package. It boils down to a Savage 110 Brush Hunter 338 win mag. It’ll be a lot less recoil than my 6.5 pound pump shotgun with 3.5” turkey shells. Now it’s just down to the optic. Like red dots, but some critters I see are too far for a good shot with a red dot. Plus having magnification to zoom in in heavy brush and heavy timber will help.
Wow love you guys you two are real lucky I'm stuck with 7.92
I have a Savage "Patrol" rifle- .308win, 2-5X, box mag, sling, muzzle break, 20in bbl, misses on weight and forward mounted scope and iron sights but i can sucessfully use it the way Cooper intended. I won't call it a scout for the reasons Richard said. , i.e., I have too many cherries on my hill billy pie. But it fits the role and so I call it a "Patrol" rifle. Shoots tight and took two whitetails the first fall in the field, one was a snap shot while still-hunting the other just an average offhand seated under a tree. I love the rifle and Cooper was my inspriation. It suits my sense of history as a woodsman and a Veteran.
I've seen whitetail run 200 yard with a perfect vital shoot. And I've seen them just drop you never know what's going to happen animals are tough.
Ron, being the handloader you are. Why not do a video on the external and terminal balistics of the 130 grain Barnes ttsx out of a 308 Winchester. Ive seen a few other videos on the concept and would love to hear your take on it as a deer and Antelope load. As someone who loves the 308 because of its versatility I think it would be a good option for a one hunting rifle option. I only have a Winchester Model 70 featherweight in 308 and A Marlin 336 in 30-30 and dontl hunt with the 30-30 much because that handy featherweight just does most things well like a scout rifle lol. Even though it is not a scout rifle at all. Love you videos! Thanks for all your knowledge.
Thanks Jonathan. that is a pretty good idea, lighter copper bullets at higher velocities, but probably one that could get me in hot water with the authorities, so I'd likely put it on RSOTV.com.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Working on a rifle project for next year. I hunt in the South Carolina mountains where a lot of encounters average 6-30 yards, but there are quite a few areas that have been logged a lot and open up to 150-200 yards. I spooked a deer at 100-125 yards last week and I couldn’t make the shot since I’m using a shotgun. Been looking at red dots and scopes and scope seems to be the right choice. The Leupold XV freedom scout 1.5-4x looks to be a good choice, but I’m also looking at a more traditional eye relief option of 1.5-5x. What would you recommend?
@@20cameron1 Traditional eye relief 2x7x Leupold would be my pick.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors Some spots are in or almost in a thicket. Used to use a 2.5-8 and couldn’t find the target if I tried.
@@20cameron1 Hmmm. With brush that thick I generally don't try to shoot through. Odds are bad for finding a clear path. But if you wish to yry, you could increase power. In open country I've easily hit the kill zone out to 400 yards at 7X. Be aware that as power increases, depth of focus decreases, so closer branches could blur out.
I tried several times to set up a scout type rifle, because I always thought the concept was very cool. I ended up switching them back, and mounted the Burris 2X7 LER on a pistol.
Ron, the podcasts and stuff are fun but honestly it would be really interesting to see an demonstrative video of how to run a practical rifle let's say in the mountains of your state in Idaho. Some ruck work and high angle shooting in terrain that is just like hunting situations instead of static benches or a flat range. This is where it would be fun to test out these concepts be they scout or practical rifles or optics and gear, employment of technique.
Good idea, Aaron. We'll see if we can produce that video one of these days. I've been thinking of doing a "How to Become a Deer Hunter" series first. Would you be interested in that?
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Of course that would be an good series. Despite having take some really nice animals I'm not in any way a good deer hunter by any measure. What I'm really keen on is improving my mobility, rifle fundamentals, and having my gear work for me efficiently. The cartridge debate stuff is ok but I don't worry much about it because I can manage with an 6.5, 270, or 308. Doesn't matter. If I go after larger heavier game I use an heavy loaded 30-06 or some form of an 338. I'm kinda agnostic about the cartridge talk and more into unlocking my potential and opportunities.
@@aaronwilcox6417 Understood, Aaron. Stay tuned. I think we'll try some things along these lines.
So are you working for the other companies competition
100% agree with Richard Mann, the Creedmoor is developing a reputation as a poor killer. I think it is that the ammo companies have not gotten the right bullets for it yet. Or maybe its just trying to get 600 yard bullets perform at 50 yards. Maybe it's just tall tails being told by people who don't like the 6.5 Creedmoor? But I have had all of one whitetail shot on my property with a 6.5 Creedmoor, that deer was shot at 65 yards with a 143gr and was never recovered! It was a guest hunter and that left me questioning the rounds effectiveness. But maybe I'm reading too much into that one shot. Later I spoke with a local deer processer who also was also questioning the 6.5 Creedmoor, and stated it was more like a 30-30 in killing power than other "standard Deer Calibers" He speaks to 1000's of hunters every year, and asks questions of each about effectiveness, and sees the results first hand. Maybe it's just something about hitting a deer with a bullet at close to 3000fps that spoils us?
I think it's a combination of limited bullet designs, poor shot placement, and overconfidence due to the "long range" of the cartridge. The average hunter just can't put a bullet where it needs to be, which is exacerbated by the bullet designs, and the long range potential of the cartridge leads to hunters trying for shots they have no business taking.
Whiteoaks, the problem with denigrating the 6.5 CM is you simultaneously slam the venerable 6.5x55 Swede and 260 Remington, both of which are proven a revered deer rounds that throw the same bullets at similar velocities. The 6.5x55 is about 100 fps slower, the 260 that much faster. Guys here in the west tackle deer, elk, and moose regularly with good success using the 6.5 CM. I've found it quite effective on mule deer, whitetails, ibex, red stag, tahr, fallow deer, and coyotes. No losses, but longest shot only about 350 yards. Oh, there was one 545-yard shot on a culling operation. I think the reported issues are no more common nor serious than similar with many other cartridges from 243 Win through various 300s. I've shot whitetails three times with 300 Win. Mag. before terminating them. Many similar stories. It's 90% the bullet and where you park it.
I do wish i bought the the mossberg mvp in 308 the 18 inch. Would made for perfect woods rifle. Im building my nephew a 308. May build the other nephew a 7mm08. The 308 will run 130 ttsx and 7mm08 will run 120 ttsx. Please do an episode on bullets yall used over the years would love it
Wasn't the whole concept of the scout rifle based on the one single gun, the one gun for everything, for those who can only have one?
More or less. The one rifle a soldier/scout could carry to do all things. Provide food, take out enemies at a distance, engage in a fire fight. A do it all tool suitable for bug-out, rough times, limited resources and options, woods shooting, longer range sniping, etc.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors And from what I remember it was mostly centered around the African bush.
It will not do anything better than a specialized rifle....he said it. They both agreed. I personally LOVE the scout rifle...the look amd feel. But it's not gonna out perform a for ex 30 06 ruger american 22 inch barrel with 3- 9 ×40 for deer ..
If your only criteria between 6.5 creedmoor and .308 is that "it drops large game faster within a certain range", by that logic, you should be hunting at less than 100 yards using 8.6 blackout.
That'll drop a whale in it's tracks!
I think 6.5 is popular especially out west because of the wide open spaces.
There's also the consideration that if you believe creedmoor is anemic, we now have PRC.
You simply can't really get Cooper's opinion with today's options.
Anyone who thinks recipes can't be modified doesn't cook much.
Richard should double for Tommy Lee Jones...
Im sure if Jeff cooper was alive and kicking today, the forward mounted optic would be ditched for a modern LPVO. He (Jeff) used the forward mounted optic because that’s what was available then. There is absolutely no reason to use an optic ahead of the action these days.. other than nostalgia. Is it a fun play thing? Yes. Does it have its place on the modern hunting or battlefield? Not really, no. Just my two cents.
Shucks, Skeletor, I never saw the value in a long eye relief scope atop a rifle in any era. A 2-7, 3-9 or even 4-12X provide more than enough field of view for me to get a shot on a running jackrabbit at 20 yards, a fleeing whitetails at 10 yards... I don't know about warfare applications, but I can't imagine my standard bolt-action mountain rifle with a 3X scope would leave me out of the action. I am, however, open to illumination should any long eye relief scope proponents care to expostulate and explain.
So what is a red dot?
I don't like the 6.5 Creedmoor at all
um... Cav scouts absolutely DO engage enemy platoons. the task of recon by fire and screen encompass that process. ATP 3-20.97.
Marine Doctrine the scout sniper is used for fire support operations.
Sometimes, you have to kill the sacred cow, in this case Jeff Cooper's dumb logic, which was outdated even when he was publishing it.
Caveat. I do love the scout rifle as a general purpose packing/hunting rifle, and I do think that Jeff Cooper did a lot for modern defensive pistol shooting. However, his military provenance is overrated. He was aboard a battleship during WWII and his korean war exploits are vague and disputed. Either way, he would have been a field grade staff officer during those times, and not a grunt. He then became a community college social studies teacher. Cooper was more of a those who can't do, teach.
Now, those people are valuable to any discipline, they help to build the base of knowledge and instruct the collegiate body. buuuttt, they are not the battle hardened experts that have to use the tactics.
I'm looking at it right now. Could you tell me what page you are talking about because I'd like to quote and cite it to make a point.
Yes well, Cooper was also thinking along the lines of just a ranger of one or a few maybe.
You can't compare what he was aiming for to the "cavalry scouts".
There's differing elements of the fire team, in every squad of the cavalry scouts, just like there's different weapons elements in every other squad in the US Army, depending upon MOS requirements.
I think Cooper was probably aiming for what he would want to have on hand in the situation when one do it all rifle is all that he is going to have around when he's not under orders to be participating in a calibrated military objective.
Not a great speaker methinks.