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I was scheduled on this flight along with my brother, parents, and father's parents. My mother had a premonition and rescheduled us for a week earlier.
There’s so many great qualities about your videos but my favorite and what stands out the most to me is how you speak to your audience like we’re adults, you don’t talk down to us like other UA-camrs do who over explain. It’s so refreshing.
Know what I like about this type of presentation? It is straight-forward, no loud, dramatic background music, no flitting between scenes and facts, facts, facts! Excellent. Learnt a lot.
Also no misdirection for dramatic purposes. "Was it metal fatigue?... they tested and it wasn't the cause, they would have to look elsewhere " THEN WHY DID YOU WASTE MY TIME?
@@AviationSyndicate Very interesting, thanks for sharing! I’m assuming they need that gas station in close proximity to the airport. But yeah, in this case it was really unfortunate.
The 727 was designed with short landing gear. This allowed the plane to be easily serviced by ground personnel between flights. Bags could be easily loaded, catering supplies, water, fuel etc. It makes a big difference as fewer machines and lifts are needed. It also had a BIG wing with a massive chord line over much of its span. The chord line is the distance from the leading edge of the wing to the trailing edge. It also had huge flaps and slats, the devices on the wing which reshape the wing to maximize lift at low airspeeds. They are what allow a jet to cruise at 550MPH yet land at 130ish. That big wing chord coupled with short landing gear meant that the plane invites float once in "ground effect". Ground effect starts to occur when the plane is about half of its wingspan from the runway and becomes more acute the closer to the runway the plane gets. The air is compressed under the plane's wing. It effectively cushions the plane and momentarily decreases drag. If a pilot pitches up too aggressively in the flare to decrease his vertical speed it can cause the plane to float in ground effect, quite happily in fact. And with each passing second at 120 knots a WHOLE lot of runway goes whizzing by. Precise airspeed control is always important but it's hyper-crucial IF runway length is a factor. So, ten knots too fast to a really short runway (that runway) wasn't just 10 knots too fast, it was way too damn fast. Sadly, a predictable outcome. He should have gone around when the FE said plus ten. Or, he could also have stuck with his original decision to GA...add max power and raise Flaps 25 and GO. He was probably very light at the end of that long flight and this would have helped immensely. It would have flown uphill but engine spool-up time would have been a factor. At brand X, we were required to be fully configured with engines spooled up at 500'. Years later that was raised to 1000'. So if you needed to GO, you already had the engines spooled. Today's fanjets push so much air (and have fadec) that spool-up time is essentially nonexistent. This was a sad accident and I'm glad it wasn't me. The 60s were loaded with incidents just like this because most pilots had been flying straight-wing turboprops whose engines provided instantaneous thrust and lift due to engine design and prop wash. They also provided a TON of drag with their huge props. So speed control was easy. Guys would hop in a swept-wing 727 or DC9 and get too fast (or too slow) and problems would soon follow. All that being said, the 27 was an absolute joy to fly. There was next to nothing automatic about it. That was pure flying.
The DC-9 and the subsequent MD-80 series of aircraft was also designed with short landing gear for the same reason. May the victims of American Airlines flight 625 RIP.
Armchair pilot here. I often wonder why in a floating situation they don't just deploy the spoilers? Shouldn't that dump the lift and get them down? I know the best thing is to not get into that situation in the first place or to go around but why is spoilers not a good idea?
Interesting coincidence in this video. The n-number of the aircraft used in the simulated portions of the video, N1996, was not the registration of the accident aircraft, N1963. The coincidental part is that not only was N1996 also an American 727 (albeit -200), but that plane was also involved in a fatal accident - AA flight 383 in 1965. And for one final coincidence AA383 would be the flight number for a hull loss incident of a 767 in 2016 (fortunately no fatalities in that one).
My dad flew as a FE/2nd Officer on 727's for United in the 1980's and 90's as well as a "Sim Instructor" for the type. The 727 was well known as a "hot" design, which led to several landing incidents early in it's history. The airframe was so clean, that it was hard to get it slowed down to the Vref speeds to get it to land. It was not an easy plane to land. The later versions of the plane incorporated more lift-spoiling features, which is really what 40 degrees of flaps does: after Flaps 20, it's not so much about the "enhancing lift" as increasing the drag: you'd never select Flaps 40 for takeoff, for instance. Other contemporary designs, like the Fokker F28 for instance, featured big speed brakes that could be deployed to "dirty" the airframe in the Final Approach to bleed off that final amount of speed, but the 727 didn't have those features...especially in the 100. So, when the Captain wasn't judicious about getting his speed down in the approach he was already in trouble. The 727 was an incredible airplane, but you had to fly it, you couldn't get away letting it fly you.
Uhhh.....sorta. Allow me to disagree a bit. First, The 727 was indeed a fast plane but that is not what led to the accidents. And, it was not all that "clean". When dirtied up, it would come down like a piano. Many of today's jets will not do that. In the 1960s a lot of pilots were moving to turbo-jets from turbo-PROPS which were slightly more "forgiving" when it came to speed control, due to their near-instant drag (from the props flattening pitch) when thrust was reduced. Additionally, early jet engines had a significant "lag" time between when the pilot advanced the throttles and when the engines were "spooled up". So when you combine the two, showing up at the runway too fast OR too slow was less than ideal. We learned way back then BECAUSE of accidents like this that the engines needed to be "spooled" coming out of 1000 feet in case a go-around was needed. Having the gear and flaps out and BEING ON PROFILE meant everything then as it still does. This technique virtually eliminates the spool-up time. Because of that, the pilot is able to apply thrust and go around right now. Modern engines do not require this spool-up time. It was not hard to get it down to speed but if the pilot blew the arrival to the airport (arrived too fast and/or too high) he never had the opportunity to properly configure the airplane (energy state and gear flaps) for the landing. It was not a difficult airplane to land. But like most jets, it's somewhat intolerant of sloppy piloting. Garbage in, garbage out if you will. I flew it for years. I may have landed with F40 5 times. It simply was not needed on all but the shortest and/or most compromised runways. For its size and speed, the 727 had GREAT short field capabilities with its huge flaps and slats. The 727 has speed brakes just like the Fokker. But they were on the wings, not the tail. Using them below 1000 feet was prohibited due to the potential for asymmetric extension. You said this..."So, when the Captain wasn't judicious about getting his speed down in the approach he was already in trouble. The 727 was an incredible airplane, but you had to fly it, you couldn't get away letting it fly you" That is exactly right! It was a great airplane and capable of doing amazing things. But, someone had to fly the damn thing. Always.
The MD11 was notorious for hot landings too, mainly because it had a relatively small tail section for its size. Because of this it had to come in faster. If the pilots weren't careful, when they "hit" the runway too hard the plane could porpoise. If the pilots tried to force the nose back down, the plane could flip. The proper way to get out of the situation was to leave the controls alone. There were two accidents due to improper landing procedures, one fatal.
I’m an air traffic controller currently at STT. Thanks for the video. Slight correction to when you were talking about the runway being extended. The old runway is actually the northern taxiway (current taxiway bravo), the extension of the runway was done for the part that juts out into the water. Thanks for always putting out great videos, including this one. I would love to see a video on St Barths airport, don’t have a specific crash in mind but the structure and difficulty of the airport is interesting with the amount of crashes that happens
I landed many times at the St. Thomas airport when I lived there from 1978 to 1982. And that crash landing was always on my mind as we approached the runway. There is a placard dedicated to those killed in the crash.
In remembrance to the victims: Flight Attendant Joan Kranik Garrara, Flight Attendant Elizabeth B. Pickett John McPherson Charles C. Skinner Margaret P. Skinner Russell Ticknor James Wood Mrs. Wood Lyra Adams Raymond Adams Celeste Alvarez Keith Alvarez Joan Bock Mrs. Brown Monmouth G. Buckbee Jean Buckbee Christine Brake Infant Brake Beverly Demonde Mary Elizabeth Flanagan Kitter Hempel Virginia Lomax Carol Lewis Neville Martin Herry Mosley Tangenique Miller Randy Papritz Helena Reaves Hope Riley, Fairfield Nora Callwood Schley Cheryl Scott Infant Scott Adrienne M. Stack Louise Ann Tabacco Dora Thibault Ruth Ticknor Debra West And the lucky ones who survived: Captain Arthur Joseph Bujnowski First Officer Edward R. Offchiss Flight Engineer Donald C. Mestler Flight Attendant Betty Ayars Bender Flight Attendant Janet Haviland Chamberlin William Abeshaur Anlee Abeshaur Salvotore Cabibbe Cheryl Ellis Niles Flanders Robert Newman Frank Greaves Juanita Isaac Veronica Nero James Rudolph Merle Rudolph Charles Raymon Cecil Shackelton Vivian Shackelton Lorna Tabacco Lydia Thaxton Henry Weber Mrs. Weber Leon Bailey Richard Bridgen Sally Bridgen Everette M. Clark Sherille Darden, Bronx Dorothy Hills, Brooklyn John Horsfall Mohammed Hombalah William Lucas Teresa Meade Carmen Miller Rosalie Palmer Edris Parson Berthe Primus Leola Rose Jerry Lynn Rutledge Thomas Sharp Mary Sharp Albert Smith Agnes Smith Pamela Stone David Thomas Rudolph Tonino Christine White F. Woodley Mrs. Woodley Infant Woodley
Thanks for posting this. It’s sad when I read any of the victim’s names but when I see couples or a mother with her child it’s especially heartbreaking. This accident happened a long time ago. I wonder what those babies would have grown up to be. It’s sad that this accident could have been prevented.
Thanks for posting the names. My cousin was the Flight Attendant, Joan Kranik Carrara. She was 36 and had just put in for her retirement from the airlines. She was one of the last to be identified. It was an excruciating experience for everyone in the family. I remember my mother finding out about her niece. It was surreal.
Great video, Chloe! The recreation of STT was top-notch. I worked in St. Thomas as a paramedic for a while, and I had never heard of this before your video. I always worried about a situation like this. St. Thomas and the USVI in general do not have a lot of emergency and health care resources now, and I can imagine things were even more scarce back then. There are some large hills at the end of runway 10 (or 09), and who knows if they would’ve made it over them. I did my first flight lesson at STT and while it’s a beautiful approach and departure, I’d imagine it used to be a very tough approach.
Gosh when you said they crashed into a petrol station, I was 100% expecting it blew up the underground petrol reserves and everybody on the plane and in the surrounding area died. I hate thinking like this, it seems crass to those that did die, but I was really surprised the body count wasn't higher. Glad things changed, but I hate that it always takes death to do it
That's the nature of the aviation industry. It takes air crashes and deaths to find the weak spots in the industry and shore them up. It's why flying is so much safer now. A lot of sacrifices.
Underground petrol reserves are designed not to explode , and this one didn’t as well. The explosion was remaining fuel in the aircraft and residual from the gas pumps and vehicle tanks.
@@rapman5363 yes I know that's what the explosion was, that's why I was surprised. I didn't know underground gas reserves are designed not to explode, thanks for letting me know. It makes a bit more sense now
Amazing video! I hope to see some videos on other disasters in maritime, space and rail, I highly recommend looking into the disappearance of the SS pacific and the sinking of the SS Arctic, both are fascinating and one day I hope to find the wrecks of both ships which have never been found
Former DC-9 and 727 pilot here; both of these aircraft have a tendency to float during the flair. The air tends to 'bunch up' under the back of the wing with flaps down and close to the ground. Also, one of the few bad habits the 727 has was it didn't handle well with flaps 40, especially in gusty winds. 30 was quite a bit better and the difference in airspeed is only a few knots but it slows down quicker with flaps 40 than 30. I wasn't there, so the best I can do is guess but I'd bet a lot that given the circumstances, the go-around would have been successful. I'm pretty sure the captain was thinking 'I'm not gonna make the go-around, so I'll abort and run off the end of the runway at 60 knots rather than 110. He knew that the instant the throttles were retarded, a crash was certain, he wanted it to be at the lowest possible speed. Again, I'm guessing.......I wasn't actually there.
@@jameshayward8533 My last flight in a 727 was 1989 and they had the 40 setting then, well, the airline I flew for did. They may have eliminated it later, I don't know.
I have the distinction of having ferried N6839 to Roswell, New Mexico on December 28, 2001. This was the last flight ever for this Boeing 727-223, it was scrapped about 10 years ago. We gave the old bird a good send off; Since we were empty and as such very light, we set maximum cruise power and were able to do .89 mach. It was vibrating quite a bit so we pulled it back. These were great airplanes, they would do whatever you asked of them-
I think Pilgrim Airlines Flight 458 should make for a pretty interesting video. The Pilots had to crash land their plane while they were being burned by a cockpit fire and 11 out of 12 people onboard survived.
There's a great video by Mentour Pilot about why airstairs aren't on planes anymore and also the DB Cooper incident. Highly recommend and I should watch it again too. ✌️🍍
Wow. I just got back from a vacation to the Virgin Islands where I learned of and researched this very crash. That’s some crazy timing to release this video. Edit: there is still a gas station at the end of the runway
Hi, thank you for the great but tragic video, awesome work as always! I did ask you back when you asked, to please do videos of rail and ship disasters as well as aviation, so am very much looking forward to those! Please keep up the great work! Kenneth Morenz
I was a senior in high school when that happened. Nine years later I was flying in there as a Convair captain and I don't remember if it had been lengthened yet. Later on I got to fly it on the 757 for AA and have some beautiful video from the front window. I will say that that accident was in my mind for every landing. Nice work on the presentation.
I know it's very strange considering the subject matter, but the way you narrate is somehow so therapeutic. I actually watch your videos whenever I feel stressed out lol
So… if the Capt. had not reversed his decision to go around, would he have been able to get the 727 airborne with the remaining 1,000 ft. of runway? How could he have possibly thought slamming on the brakes was a bad idea at first, then change his mind, seconds later reverse his decision for a second time..? He sounds very indecisive at the pivotal moment in flight. He should have set his flaps to 40 degrees from the beginning
No. The approach profile in the report shows he was trying to take off with ~1,200ft of runway. Boeing estimated the required distance for a go-around starting from that speed to require 1,912ft of runway. As an additional note: the braking distance of the 727-100 was tested to be 1,843ft with the settings that were used: the minimum stopping distance with 40° flaps & reversers applied is 1,575ft.
@@farhanatashiga3721 Yes, but it most likely would have slowed significantly if not stopped before reaching the gas station if the brakes had been held the whole time. Of course, hindsight is a fabulous thing. The captain did what he believed was best in the situation: the testing after this disaster lead to knowledge for future pilots.
The "Go Around" decision should have been made somewhere around the "Minimum" decision altitude of 500 feet. Knowing that they were hot and above the Vref speed (meaning that the approach wasn't "stable") they should have added power and gone around and reshot the approach.
That would certainly be a cool video, two seemingly unrelated flights meeting such a horrible final fate so close together in time. Plus the video of 911 taking off on its last flight with the wreck of 402 in the foreground is just so awfully eerie.
Interesting videos. Guess I have a dark side listening to disasters. Your voice is calm, good volume, & pleasent to listen too. I flew twice to 4x every week to work for 4years. we had a number of scary flights.
The flare is also used to Arrest the rate of descent and scrub off a little bit more speed -Effectively almost stalling the aircraft onto the runway to ensure control on the ground and in the case of large aircraft with a lot of inertia prevents a bounce and allows flight crews to then initiate further deceleration measures,brakes,spoiler etc
The sea disasters videos would be cool. You do a good job on these videos and I know you will do just as good of a job on the sea disasters videos and they will do well.
STT is basically shoehorned into the spot where they could easily put sufficient landfill -- for a long time, long distance flights to the USVI would go to the more capable St. Croix airport then you'd use a short hopper to STT, but hey, the capital city is in St. Thomas so when you began getting "short field" jets the demand was there. After this accident the 4600' runway was lengthened to 7000' by further filling.
BTW, again. @6:00 the narrator mentions Runway 09, now 10. Airport Runways are numbered according to magnetic headings. These are "rounded" to the closest of ten degrees. Over many years, because of changes in the Earth's magnetic field, some airport Runways are re- assigned. Due to actual magnetism fields of the Earth changing slightly.
I wasn’t even born yet but I heard this story as I was a young boy. As I was born & raised in the U.S. Virgin islands 🇻🇮 st. Thomas where this crash happened still breaks my heart may all continue to rest in peace
I always felt the 727/Trident/tri engined planes were both ahead o their time and at he same time, behind the times. On the other hand, I always elt the 727 looked kind of disproportionate, double so when stretched in the -200 model. Ditto for other planes that pulled that off too. Looking at you, DC-9/MD-8X/9X family and the CRJ family too.
I was a recently certificated Private Pilot in those days about 22 yo, and was living in San Juan , we went over the next day in a 172 and the fuselage was already on a big flat bed with the left engine still on it, there were two rows of tubing fences flattened by the 727 and right at the end there was what remained of the Shell gas station.Could never figure out why they built it right at the end of the runway.That is when I learned for the FAA to take action people have to die.Years later they added a few thousand feet offshore to the west .
I miss the old American Airlines eagle livery. I also miss flying on 727s. We use to board Piedmont Airlines 727s in Winston-Salem and fly to the races at Daytona. Smith Reynolds airport in Winston has never had boarding docks, so we always used the plane's stairs in the back. I always thought that was neat as a kid in the late 1970s.
The overhead diagram is incorrect for the time of the accident. Slightly north of the runway is the remains of the original runway. The longer runway shown was built with the extension over reclaimed land.
At 7:40? Bingo! You explain this very, very well. BTW? I have some thousands of hours on the B727. It's a good airplane, but today's jets are more advanced.
I've been on one of those with Olympic from Athens to Corfu and the plane then went onwards to Brussels minus me as I was getting a ferry to Saranda, Albania from Corfu Town.I'm guessing it must have been one of the last passenger 727's operating in Europe.
As a person who flew a lot in the 70s and 80s as a kid, I went on many Eastern and JAT 727s. I love the aircraft. It will always remain my top 5 favorite types flown. I'll take it over any of the "Airfix" 737NG/Airbus contemporaries any day. The sounds of the JT8s, the sight of the triple-slotted flaps, the "new" wide-body interiors.
The triple-slotted flaps were augmented by leading-edge slats. One 727 captain once reportedly said: "On this bird you don't lower the flaps - you disassemble the whole damned wing!"
Someone please explain to me who was stupid enough to put a GAS STATION, one of the most flammable type of buildings just at the end of a runway? I admit they probably never expected a plane that big to overrun it, but still
Once an approach becomes unstable, a go around should immediately be instituted. As soon as the crew realized the landing was not safe, they should have applied full power and began go around procedures.
Wow, if he had stuck to the initial landing attempt OR the go-around, this likely wouldn't have happened. Obviously the correct thing to do would have been to just go around initially, as the final approach never seemed stable, at least not when you've got a runway that short. They should have known that touching down on the numbers was important during this approach - anything else should have resulted in a go-around.
remember this was 1977, so many of the modern cockpit and flight rules were not in place as yet. The report blames the pilot yes, but also advises there were circumstances, the winds specifically, that effected his efforts. I wonder if he ever flew again? Not sure I could knowing I was responsible for people dying.
First two minutes, excellent B727 history. Did you know that when originally designed, Boeing didn't think about including an APU? Engineers devised a location for one, in the right wing root. As an APU it functioned on the ground only, compared to modern APUs today.
This crash reminds me somewhat of the Southwest Airlines flight 1455 crash at Burbank Airport in 2000, including (nearly in the Burbank situation) crashing into a gas station. Different circumstances, obviously, but both were overruns, although there were no deaths in Burbank.
Happened again in 2018, apparently. Same airline, same type, same airport, same number injured. I'm just learning about them thanks to another commenter.
Maybe it is a bad idea to build a (flammable/explosive) gas station near the end of a runway, knowing that, someday, a plane might have an "oopsie" (or, more formally: an excursion). I would put the gas station elsewhere.
I shouldn't second guess another captain, especially one with more hours on the 727 than I have, but the proceedure here is cut and dry. Fly the bug speed ON THE DOT! Plus 10 won't cut it. Aim for the 500 ft stripe, there check the decent with a very brief back pressure, then close the throttles, push the wheel forward, plant the wheels on the concrete, apply spoilers, reverse thrust and brakes simultaniously. Taxi in, park it, shut her down, then call it a day and go to the beach.
10:05 the investigation has no idea, the plane was still very fast and maybe even could have been able to lift off without extra engine power, it was light too since fuel already got burned up
Not that it really matters, but TF Greene International Airport in Rhode Island is actually based in Warwick, not Providence. About 15-30 minutes away, depending on traffic on I-95. Not sure why they always call it "Providence" and "PVD". Small airport, though. Only 22 gates but convenient.
How about a vid on Transbrasil flight 801? It's quite a mysterious crash, but some say it crashed due to pilot error. This is also said in the official report.
Given Covid and the concerns about climate change and related bans on fossil fuels, resulting in things like 15 min cities, efforts to find alternatives to air travel for the masses, despite the aviation industry’s best efforts long after 9/11, the aviation industry, even GA, is ultimately set to become a thing of the past very soon
If you found this video to be interesting, be sure to subscribe as there is a new video every Saturday. This video also went out to my Patrons on Patreon 48 hours before going out publicly. Consider joining here from £1 per month: www.patreon.com/DisasterBreakdown
Great video, but not like you to mis-spell "publicly" in the intro, or the first officer's given name. Hope you're ok?
@@janethigginbottom I know, I couldn't believe it. Never face palmed so hard today
@@DisasterBreakdown didn't detract from the story though. Btw I thought last week's was your best yet
I was scheduled on this flight along with my brother, parents, and father's parents. My mother had a premonition and rescheduled us for a week earlier.
Are most of your viewers american? plane hit a 'gas' station! Surely you meant petrol station 🙂
There’s so many great qualities about your videos but my favorite and what stands out the most to me is how you speak to your audience like we’re adults, you don’t talk down to us like other UA-camrs do who over explain. It’s so refreshing.
Know what I like about this type of presentation? It is straight-forward, no loud, dramatic background music, no flitting between scenes and facts, facts, facts! Excellent. Learnt a lot.
Also no misdirection for dramatic purposes. "Was it metal fatigue?... they tested and it wasn't the cause, they would have to look elsewhere " THEN WHY DID YOU WASTE MY TIME?
11:30 they *PUT A GAS STATION AT THE END OF A RUNWAY!!!???* ..... wow
thats genius
why not a firework factory!!
Saint Thomas native here, the gas station was rebuilt and is still at the end of the runway, albeit just off to the left now.
@@AviationSyndicate Very interesting, thanks for sharing! I’m assuming they need that gas station in close proximity to the airport. But yeah, in this case it was really unfortunate.
@@TheaSvendsen It's definitely not needed. The island is tiny, only 32 square miles, and there's a gas station about every half mile.
same happened to a plane that overshot the runway and crashed in brazil
There was the crash into a Farrell's Ice Cream Parlor in Sacramento, CA in 1972. A kids/family location at the end of a runway.
The 727 was designed with short landing gear. This allowed the plane to be easily serviced by ground personnel between flights. Bags could be easily loaded, catering supplies, water, fuel etc. It makes a big difference as fewer machines and lifts are needed. It also had a BIG wing with a massive chord line over much of its span. The chord line is the distance from the leading edge of the wing to the trailing edge. It also had huge flaps and slats, the devices on the wing which reshape the wing to maximize lift at low airspeeds. They are what allow a jet to cruise at 550MPH yet land at 130ish.
That big wing chord coupled with short landing gear meant that the plane invites float once in "ground effect". Ground effect starts to occur when the plane is about half of its wingspan from the runway and becomes more acute the closer to the runway the plane gets. The air is compressed under the plane's wing. It effectively cushions the plane and momentarily decreases drag. If a pilot pitches up too aggressively in the flare to decrease his vertical speed it can cause the plane to float in ground effect, quite happily in fact. And with each passing second at 120 knots a WHOLE lot of runway goes whizzing by. Precise airspeed control is always important but it's hyper-crucial IF runway length is a factor. So, ten knots too fast to a really short runway (that runway) wasn't just 10 knots too fast, it was way too damn fast.
Sadly, a predictable outcome. He should have gone around when the FE said plus ten. Or, he could also have stuck with his original decision to GA...add max power and raise Flaps 25 and GO. He was probably very light at the end of that long flight and this would have helped immensely. It would have flown uphill but engine spool-up time would have been a factor. At brand X, we were required to be fully configured with engines spooled up at 500'. Years later that was raised to 1000'. So if you needed to GO, you already had the engines spooled. Today's fanjets push so much air (and have fadec) that spool-up time is essentially nonexistent. This was a sad accident and I'm glad it wasn't me. The 60s were loaded with incidents just like this because most pilots had been flying straight-wing turboprops whose engines provided instantaneous thrust and lift due to engine design and prop wash. They also provided a TON of drag with their huge props. So speed control was easy. Guys would hop in a swept-wing 727 or DC9 and get too fast (or too slow) and problems would soon follow. All that being said, the 27 was an absolute joy to fly. There was next to nothing automatic about it. That was pure flying.
Ah... the ground effect...
The DC-9 and the subsequent MD-80 series of aircraft was also designed with short landing gear for the same reason. May the victims of American Airlines flight 625 RIP.
Your description of the 727 is why I knew it the community tab it was going to be this aircraft this week.
I appreciate your insight! Thank you.
Armchair pilot here. I often wonder why in a floating situation they don't just deploy the spoilers? Shouldn't that dump the lift and get them down? I know the best thing is to not get into that situation in the first place or to go around but why is spoilers not a good idea?
Interesting coincidence in this video. The n-number of the aircraft used in the simulated portions of the video, N1996, was not the registration of the accident aircraft, N1963. The coincidental part is that not only was N1996 also an American 727 (albeit -200), but that plane was also involved in a fatal accident - AA flight 383 in 1965. And for one final coincidence AA383 would be the flight number for a hull loss incident of a 767 in 2016 (fortunately no fatalities in that one).
How does a plane lose its hull?
@@PetraKann It's a "hull loss" to the airline not the aircraft. The aircraft was damaged beyond repair and written "off" by the airline.
It's interesting, as I thought when an airline had a fatal accident, they retired the flight number for obvious reasons.
@@PetraKannthe same way turtle looses its shell. With about as much blood.
My dad flew as a FE/2nd Officer on 727's for United in the 1980's and 90's as well as a "Sim Instructor" for the type. The 727 was well known as a "hot" design, which led to several landing incidents early in it's history. The airframe was so clean, that it was hard to get it slowed down to the Vref speeds to get it to land. It was not an easy plane to land. The later versions of the plane incorporated more lift-spoiling features, which is really what 40 degrees of flaps does: after Flaps 20, it's not so much about the "enhancing lift" as increasing the drag: you'd never select Flaps 40 for takeoff, for instance. Other contemporary designs, like the Fokker F28 for instance, featured big speed brakes that could be deployed to "dirty" the airframe in the Final Approach to bleed off that final amount of speed, but the 727 didn't have those features...especially in the 100. So, when the Captain wasn't judicious about getting his speed down in the approach he was already in trouble. The 727 was an incredible airplane, but you had to fly it, you couldn't get away letting it fly you.
Uhhh.....sorta. Allow me to disagree a bit. First, The 727 was indeed a fast plane but that is not what led to the accidents. And, it was not all that "clean". When dirtied up, it would come down like a piano. Many of today's jets will not do that. In the 1960s a lot of pilots were moving to turbo-jets from turbo-PROPS which were slightly more "forgiving" when it came to speed control, due to their near-instant drag (from the props flattening pitch) when thrust was reduced. Additionally, early jet engines had a significant "lag" time between when the pilot advanced the throttles and when the engines were "spooled up". So when you combine the two, showing up at the runway too fast OR too slow was less than ideal. We learned way back then BECAUSE of accidents like this that the engines needed to be "spooled" coming out of 1000 feet in case a go-around was needed. Having the gear and flaps out and BEING ON PROFILE meant everything then as it still does. This technique virtually eliminates the spool-up time. Because of that, the pilot is able to apply thrust and go around right now. Modern engines do not require this spool-up time. It was not hard to get it down to speed but if the pilot blew the arrival to the airport (arrived too fast and/or too high) he never had the opportunity to properly configure the airplane (energy state and gear flaps) for the landing. It was not a difficult airplane to land. But like most jets, it's somewhat intolerant of sloppy piloting. Garbage in, garbage out if you will.
I flew it for years. I may have landed with F40 5 times. It simply was not needed on all but the shortest and/or most compromised runways. For its size and speed, the 727 had GREAT short field capabilities with its huge flaps and slats.
The 727 has speed brakes just like the Fokker. But they were on the wings, not the tail. Using them below 1000 feet was prohibited due to the potential for asymmetric extension.
You said this..."So, when the Captain wasn't judicious about getting his speed down in the approach he was already in trouble. The 727 was an incredible airplane, but you had to fly it, you couldn't get away letting it fly you" That is exactly right! It was a great airplane and capable of doing amazing things. But, someone had to fly the damn thing. Always.
The MD11 was notorious for hot landings too, mainly because it had a relatively small tail section for its size. Because of this it had to come in faster. If the pilots weren't careful, when they "hit" the runway too hard the plane could porpoise. If the pilots tried to force the nose back down, the plane could flip. The proper way to get out of the situation was to leave the controls alone. There were two accidents due to improper landing procedures, one fatal.
I’m an air traffic controller currently at STT. Thanks for the video. Slight correction to when you were talking about the runway being extended. The old runway is actually the northern taxiway (current taxiway bravo), the extension of the runway was done for the part that juts out into the water.
Thanks for always putting out great videos, including this one. I would love to see a video on St Barths airport, don’t have a specific crash in mind but the structure and difficulty of the airport is interesting with the amount of crashes that happens
I landed many times at the St. Thomas airport when I lived there from 1978 to 1982. And that crash landing was always on my mind as we approached the runway. There is a placard dedicated to those killed in the crash.
Among all the other great work that goes into these, I wanted to thank you for putting subtitles on your videos!
In remembrance to the victims:
Flight Attendant Joan Kranik Garrara,
Flight Attendant Elizabeth B. Pickett
John McPherson
Charles C. Skinner
Margaret P. Skinner
Russell Ticknor
James Wood
Mrs. Wood
Lyra Adams
Raymond Adams
Celeste Alvarez
Keith Alvarez
Joan Bock
Mrs. Brown
Monmouth G. Buckbee
Jean Buckbee
Christine Brake
Infant Brake
Beverly Demonde
Mary Elizabeth Flanagan
Kitter Hempel
Virginia Lomax
Carol Lewis
Neville Martin
Herry Mosley
Tangenique Miller
Randy Papritz
Helena Reaves
Hope Riley, Fairfield
Nora Callwood Schley
Cheryl Scott
Infant Scott
Adrienne M. Stack
Louise Ann Tabacco
Dora Thibault
Ruth Ticknor
Debra West
And the lucky ones who survived:
Captain Arthur Joseph Bujnowski
First Officer Edward R. Offchiss
Flight Engineer Donald C. Mestler
Flight Attendant Betty Ayars Bender
Flight Attendant Janet Haviland Chamberlin
William Abeshaur
Anlee Abeshaur
Salvotore Cabibbe
Cheryl Ellis
Niles Flanders
Robert Newman
Frank Greaves
Juanita Isaac
Veronica Nero
James Rudolph
Merle Rudolph
Charles Raymon
Cecil Shackelton
Vivian Shackelton
Lorna Tabacco
Lydia Thaxton
Henry Weber
Mrs. Weber
Leon Bailey
Richard Bridgen
Sally Bridgen
Everette M. Clark
Sherille Darden, Bronx
Dorothy Hills, Brooklyn
John Horsfall
Mohammed Hombalah
William Lucas
Teresa Meade
Carmen Miller
Rosalie Palmer
Edris Parson
Berthe Primus
Leola Rose
Jerry Lynn Rutledge
Thomas Sharp
Mary Sharp
Albert Smith
Agnes Smith
Pamela Stone
David Thomas
Rudolph Tonino
Christine White
F. Woodley
Mrs. Woodley
Infant Woodley
(Taken from the New York Times Newspaper clipping on the disaster)
Thanks for posting this. It’s sad when I read any of the victim’s names but when I see couples or a mother with her child it’s especially heartbreaking. This accident happened a long time ago. I wonder what those babies would have grown up to be. It’s sad that this accident could have been prevented.
@SpaceAce100 thanks for sharing
Funny the person with the name very similar to Tobacco survived.
Thanks for posting the names. My cousin was the Flight Attendant, Joan Kranik Carrara. She was 36 and had just put in for her retirement from the airlines. She was one of the last to be identified. It was an excruciating experience for everyone in the family. I remember my mother finding out about her niece. It was surreal.
Great video, Chloe! The recreation of STT was top-notch. I worked in St. Thomas as a paramedic for a while, and I had never heard of this before your video. I always worried about a situation like this. St. Thomas and the USVI in general do not have a lot of emergency and health care resources now, and I can imagine things were even more scarce back then. There are some large hills at the end of runway 10 (or 09), and who knows if they would’ve made it over them. I did my first flight lesson at STT and while it’s a beautiful approach and departure, I’d imagine it used to be a very tough approach.
Gosh when you said they crashed into a petrol station, I was 100% expecting it blew up the underground petrol reserves and everybody on the plane and in the surrounding area died.
I hate thinking like this, it seems crass to those that did die, but I was really surprised the body count wasn't higher.
Glad things changed, but I hate that it always takes death to do it
That's the nature of the aviation industry. It takes air crashes and deaths to find the weak spots in the industry and shore them up. It's why flying is so much safer now. A lot of sacrifices.
Underground petrol reserves are designed not to explode , and this one didn’t as well.
The explosion was remaining fuel in the aircraft and residual from the gas pumps and vehicle tanks.
@@rapman5363 yes I know that's what the explosion was, that's why I was surprised.
I didn't know underground gas reserves are designed not to explode, thanks for letting me know. It makes a bit more sense now
Amazing video! I hope to see some videos on other disasters in maritime, space and rail, I highly recommend looking into the disappearance of the SS pacific and the sinking of the SS Arctic, both are fascinating and one day I hope to find the wrecks of both ships which have never been found
Former DC-9 and 727 pilot here; both of these aircraft have a tendency to float during the flair. The air tends to 'bunch up' under the back of the wing with flaps down and close to the ground.
Also, one of the few bad habits the 727 has was it didn't handle well with flaps 40, especially in gusty winds. 30 was quite a bit better and the difference in airspeed is only a few knots but it slows down quicker with flaps 40 than 30.
I wasn't there, so the best I can do is guess but I'd bet a lot that given the circumstances, the go-around would have been successful.
I'm pretty sure the captain was thinking 'I'm not gonna make the go-around, so I'll abort and run off the end of the runway at 60 knots rather than 110. He knew that the instant the throttles were retarded, a crash was certain, he wanted it to be at the lowest possible speed.
Again, I'm guessing.......I wasn't actually there.
Wasn't the 40 Deg Flap setting eliminated by Boeing by placing a block on the flap quadrant so the flap handle stopped at 30 degrees?
@@jameshayward8533 My last flight in a 727 was 1989 and they had the 40 setting then, well, the airline I flew for did.
They may have eliminated it later, I don't know.
@@jameshayward8533 Some airlines did that, starting with Northwest and TWA. The 727-200's max flap setting is 35°.
The 727-100 always looked just slightly disproportionate, but I don’t think it looks bad. Great video as always!
i wish they had made a 727-300
@@ImperialDiecast HaHa right? It would be like if a 757 and an MD-88 had a baby.
@@ImperialDiecastsame nearly every Boeing plane in the 80s to 90s had a 300 series but not the 727
I have the distinction of having ferried N6839 to Roswell, New Mexico on December 28, 2001. This was the last flight ever for this Boeing 727-223, it was scrapped about 10 years ago. We gave the old bird a good send off; Since we were empty and as such very light, we set maximum cruise power and were able to do .89 mach. It was vibrating quite a bit so we pulled it back.
These were great airplanes, they would do whatever you asked of them-
Impressive!
I’m shocked that many people survived considering it was such a horrific crash.
I flew into St Thomas in 1982 for my honeymoon. It was an Eastern Airlines 727 out of Miami.
I liked when the crew ages were shown next to their names, gave them more of a sense of humanity.
My cousin was flight attandant Joan Kranik Carrara. She was 36.
As always, awesome vid.
Keep them coming! Always looking forward to your vids to be honest..
thank you for the time and effort put in to making these videos, i really appreciate it and think you make great videos.
I think Pilgrim Airlines Flight 458 should make for a pretty interesting video. The Pilots had to crash land their plane while they were being burned by a cockpit fire and 11 out of 12 people onboard survived.
Great video as always. I always learn something from your videos. Full of information and well presented knowledge. Nicely done. 😁👍🏾
This crash happened April 27, 1976. AA Flight 625 is still flying: June 12, 2022, San Diego to Phoenix, 6:25 am.
watched two videos from this guy. immediately subbed, great content.
Between the script and the music I was on the edge of my seat at 10:00 Great video!
The 727 also had aft airstairs, I remember boarding that way a couple of times when I was a kid.
DB Cooper escaped via the aft air stairs
@@darraghmckenna9127 And was never found, I sometimes wonder if he really made it or not.
There's a great video by Mentour Pilot about why airstairs aren't on planes anymore and also the DB Cooper incident. Highly recommend and I should watch it again too. ✌️🍍
6:00 I think that this graphic is incorrect, the part of the runway added later is probably the one sticking out into the sea
Would love to see more rail and sea disasters. Love your work. Cheers
Hopefully one of your loved ones won’t be on the train or ship that day. Or do you only like seeing other people’s family suffer?
Wow. I just got back from a vacation to the Virgin Islands where I learned of and researched this very crash. That’s some crazy timing to release this video.
Edit: there is still a gas station at the end of the runway
Why?! That sounds dangerous.
Yep the gas station is still there.. I always wonder why would one put a gas station at the very end of an airport runway.
Hi, thank you for the great but tragic video, awesome work as always! I did ask you back when you asked, to please do videos of rail and ship disasters as well as aviation, so am very much looking forward to those! Please keep up the great work!
Kenneth Morenz
I actually just left St. Thomas today. Kind of glad I waited to watch this until after I got home!
Can You Do A Vid On british european airways flight 609?
The Munich Disaster? It's on my list, been meaning to do it for a while actually.
I was a senior in high school when that happened. Nine years later I was flying in there as a Convair captain and I don't remember if it had been lengthened yet. Later on I got to fly it on the 757 for AA and have some beautiful video from the front window. I will say that that accident was in my mind for every landing.
Nice work on the presentation.
I know it's very strange considering the subject matter, but the way you narrate is somehow so therapeutic. I actually watch your videos whenever I feel stressed out lol
So… if the Capt. had not reversed his decision to go around, would he have been able to get the 727 airborne with the remaining 1,000 ft. of runway? How could he have possibly thought slamming on the brakes was a bad idea at first, then change his mind, seconds later reverse his decision for a second time..? He sounds very indecisive at the pivotal moment in flight. He should have set his flaps to 40 degrees from the beginning
No.
The approach profile in the report shows he was trying to take off with ~1,200ft of runway.
Boeing estimated the required distance for a go-around starting from that speed to require 1,912ft of runway.
As an additional note:
the braking distance of the 727-100 was tested to be 1,843ft with the settings that were used: the minimum stopping distance with 40° flaps & reversers applied is 1,575ft.
@@daniellee4003 so basically whatever he did the plane would overran the runway anyhow?
@@farhanatashiga3721 Yes, but it most likely would have slowed significantly if not stopped before reaching the gas station if the brakes had been held the whole time.
Of course, hindsight is a fabulous thing.
The captain did what he believed was best in the situation: the testing after this disaster lead to knowledge for future pilots.
@@farhanatashiga3721 If he applied brakes the plane would have overran the runway, but wouldn't have continued until the gas station.
The "Go Around" decision should have been made somewhere around the "Minimum" decision altitude of 500 feet. Knowing that they were hot and above the Vref speed (meaning that the approach wasn't "stable") they should have added power and gone around and reshot the approach.
Note: IFR is mandatory at high altitude (airspace A, 18000ft and above), even if there is no overcast layer as mentioned in the video
Hopefully you can make a vid about BOAC flight 911 and CPAir flight 402, since they happened in the same area, less than 24 hours apart
That would certainly be a cool video, two seemingly unrelated flights meeting such a horrible final fate so close together in time.
Plus the video of 911 taking off on its last flight with the wreck of 402 in the foreground is just so awfully eerie.
He's done BA911 by now; CP402 awaits.
Interesting videos. Guess I have a dark side listening to disasters. Your voice is calm, good volume, & pleasent to listen too. I flew twice to 4x every week to work for 4years. we had a number of scary flights.
Seems like the problem was his hesitation multiple times, gotta pick one and commit. cant be flipflopping
The flare is also used to Arrest the rate of descent and scrub off a little bit more speed -Effectively almost stalling the aircraft onto the runway to ensure control on the ground and in the case of large aircraft with a lot of inertia prevents a bounce and allows flight crews to then initiate further deceleration measures,brakes,spoiler etc
of course this gets uploaded during my trip to the Caribbean
From your community tab picture I knew it was going to be the 727. Excellent video Disaster Breakdown! Looking forward to your other videos.
The sea disasters videos would be cool. You do a good job on these videos and I know you will do just as good of a job on the sea disasters videos and they will do well.
STT is basically shoehorned into the spot where they could easily put sufficient landfill -- for a long time, long distance flights to the USVI would go to the more capable St. Croix airport then you'd use a short hopper to STT, but hey, the capital city is in St. Thomas so when you began getting "short field" jets the demand was there. After this accident the 4600' runway was lengthened to 7000' by further filling.
BTW, again. @6:00 the narrator mentions Runway 09, now 10.
Airport Runways are numbered according to magnetic headings. These are "rounded" to the closest of ten degrees.
Over many years, because of changes in the Earth's magnetic field, some airport Runways are re- assigned. Due to actual magnetism fields of the Earth changing slightly.
great video as always!
I wasn’t even born yet but I heard this story as I was a young boy. As I was born & raised in the U.S. Virgin islands 🇻🇮 st. Thomas where this crash happened still breaks my heart may all continue to rest in peace
I always felt the 727/Trident/tri engined planes were both ahead o their time and at he same time, behind the times.
On the other hand, I always elt the 727 looked kind of disproportionate, double so when stretched in the -200 model.
Ditto for other planes that pulled that off too. Looking at you, DC-9/MD-8X/9X family and the CRJ family too.
727 is one of the best looking passenger aircraft after concorde :D
the DC-9 kinda looks pretty cool to me ngl
✈ 👀
@@PinotNoir_ not a passenger plane but the xv70 valkarie is the sexiest plane ever
@@lancelotkillz i just look it up and damn, that's sexy af
I was a recently certificated Private Pilot in those days about 22 yo, and was living in San Juan , we went over the next day in a 172 and the fuselage was already on a big flat bed with the left engine still on it, there were two rows of tubing fences flattened by the 727 and right at the end there was what remained of the Shell gas station.Could never figure out why they built it right at the end of the runway.That is when I learned for the FAA to take action people have to die.Years later they added a few thousand feet offshore to the west .
I miss the old American Airlines eagle livery. I also miss flying on 727s. We use to board Piedmont Airlines 727s in Winston-Salem and fly to the races at Daytona. Smith Reynolds airport in Winston has never had boarding docks, so we always used the plane's stairs in the back. I always thought that was neat as a kid in the late 1970s.
The overhead diagram is incorrect for the time of the accident. Slightly north of the runway is the remains of the original runway. The longer runway shown was built with the extension over reclaimed land.
Great video - The 727 is an enormously capable airliner but I did not know the runway was so short - even for a 727.
Happy Pride Month @Disaster Breakdown :) also this was a great video :))))
Miss Pette Buttiget!!!
Queenlette of Transportation 😻
Thank you for sharing...
the placement of a gas station at the end of a runway...genius. next time put a bomb at the end of the runway guys, or a pool full of sharks.
Thought you would do the 2003 Angolan 727 disappearance when I saw that community post, well pleasantly surprised once again with the obscure choice 👍
At 7:40? Bingo! You explain this very, very well. BTW? I have some thousands of hours on the B727. It's a good airplane, but today's jets are more advanced.
I've been on one of those with Olympic from Athens to Corfu and the plane then went onwards to Brussels minus me as I was getting a ferry to Saranda, Albania from Corfu Town.I'm guessing it must have been one of the last passenger 727's operating in Europe.
When he was halfway down the runway and hadn't touched down yet is when he should have imitated a go-around.
As a person who flew a lot in the 70s and 80s as a kid, I went on many Eastern and JAT 727s. I love the aircraft. It will always remain my top 5 favorite types flown. I'll take it over any of the "Airfix" 737NG/Airbus contemporaries any day. The sounds of the JT8s, the sight of the triple-slotted flaps, the "new" wide-body interiors.
The triple-slotted flaps were augmented by leading-edge slats. One 727 captain once reportedly said: "On this bird you don't lower the flaps - you disassemble the whole damned wing!"
Someone please explain to me who was stupid enough to put a GAS STATION, one of the most flammable type of buildings just at the end of a runway? I admit they probably never expected a plane that big to overrun it, but still
Once an approach becomes unstable, a go around should immediately be instituted. As soon as the crew realized the landing was not safe, they should have applied full power and began go around procedures.
I'll take a random shot on the train video, is it the Eschede Derailment?
ironic how eastern airlines nicknames the 727 a "Whisperjet"
My Favorite part of the Week!!
Wow, if he had stuck to the initial landing attempt OR the go-around, this likely wouldn't have happened. Obviously the correct thing to do would have been to just go around initially, as the final approach never seemed stable, at least not when you've got a runway that short. They should have known that touching down on the numbers was important during this approach - anything else should have resulted in a go-around.
remember this was 1977, so many of the modern cockpit and flight rules were not in place as yet. The report blames the pilot yes, but also advises there were circumstances, the winds specifically, that effected his efforts. I wonder if he ever flew again? Not sure I could knowing I was responsible for people dying.
First two minutes, excellent B727 history. Did you know that when originally designed, Boeing didn't think about including an APU?
Engineers devised a location for one, in the right wing root.
As an APU it functioned on the ground only, compared to modern APUs today.
Well done!
This crash reminds me somewhat of the Southwest Airlines flight 1455 crash at Burbank Airport in 2000, including (nearly in the Burbank situation) crashing into a gas station. Different circumstances, obviously, but both were overruns, although there were no deaths in Burbank.
Happened again in 2018, apparently.
Same airline, same type, same airport, same number injured.
I'm just learning about them thanks to another commenter.
Maybe it is a bad idea to build a (flammable/explosive) gas station near the end of a runway, knowing that, someday, a plane might have an "oopsie" (or, more formally: an excursion). I would put the gas station elsewhere.
Not really my thing to suggest anything, but if I could, I would say Malév Flight 262.😅
Thanks for all of the videos! Always looking forward to them!👍
Why did runway 09 become 10? Did they just decide to rotate the runway 10 degrees when extending it or something?
I shouldn't second guess another captain, especially one with more hours on the 727 than I have, but the proceedure here is cut and dry. Fly the bug speed ON THE DOT! Plus 10 won't cut it. Aim for the 500 ft stripe, there check the decent with a very brief back pressure, then close the throttles, push the wheel forward, plant the wheels on the concrete, apply spoilers, reverse thrust and brakes simultaniously. Taxi in, park it, shut her down, then call it a day and go to the beach.
10:05 the investigation has no idea, the plane was still very fast and maybe even could have been able to lift off without extra engine power, it was light too since fuel already got burned up
I'm thinking a 727 has a few more available control inputs than a 142
Not that it really matters, but TF Greene International Airport in Rhode Island is actually based in Warwick, not Providence. About 15-30 minutes away, depending on traffic on I-95. Not sure why they always call it "Providence" and "PVD". Small airport, though. Only 22 gates but convenient.
good video
Thanks
So, should they have tried to go around, or stay on the ground in the first place?
How about a picture of the cockpit after the crash?
How about a vid on Transbrasil flight 801? It's quite a mysterious crash, but some say it crashed due to pilot error. This is also said in the official report.
Keep it up.😁👍🏻
That AA livery Has to be one of the iconic liveries of all time!
Interesting video.
Honeymooned to St. Thomas September, 1980. AA B-707 from JFK to St. Croix. 3 or 4 prop planes awaited our flight and onto ST. Return in reverse.
Given Covid and the concerns about climate change and related bans on fossil fuels, resulting in things like 15 min cities, efforts to find alternatives to air travel for the masses, despite the aviation industry’s best efforts long after 9/11, the aviation industry, even GA, is ultimately set to become a thing of the past very soon
Will you do United 175?
Virgin Islands native here and I’m shock this the first time I’m learning of this particular crash.
Providence, my hometown😀
What can Brown do for you? UPS must love that place. 😉
How many gas stations are there at the end of the runway? Does anyone building it never go ‘I think this looks like an interesting mix’,
Great content as always man I am waiting for another train crash video …
It's in the works, having a bit of difficulty with the simulation reconstruction but we'll get there with it.
The botched landing reminds of that 80's song: "Should I stay, or should I go?!"
your voice reminds me very much of Christopher Frost, the Photography youtuber :D
I see we have a distinguished gentleman here
Funny that it is called Vref. I come from a hardware dev background and there Vref is often the reference voltage for something
pretyy much watheceh all of your videos giood stuff keep it up
Thanks for watching!
Hello can you please do a video on avianca flight 671 that crashed in Jamaica in 1960
Why do you call it runaway?
This accident was mentioned in the movie, Rain Man.
8:42 unless you're flying Ryanair...