S1E13 Solution Heat Treating Explained and Applied to Hawker Typhoon Frame Segments.
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- typhoonlegacy....
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In this episode I was delighted to work with the team at Pyrotek Aerospace Ltd. in Abbotsford British Columbia to run through the process of taking our Typhoon forward monocoque frame segments from "O" condition through to T42. Solution heat treating is a very important part of the process to return Hawker Typhoon JP843 to the air, and we can't thank the team at Pyrotek enough for their unwavering support!
Head to 8:53 to start the Pyrotek process part of the video.
pyrotekaerospa...
Hawker Typhoon JP843 is a British designed aircraft of the Second World War, originally intended as a fighter / interceptor, but ultimately ending up excelling as a ground attack aircraft. The Typhoon was the Royal Air Force's ( RAF ) first 400mph fighter, and although it had troubled development in its early years (partially due to the massive Napier Sabre sleeve valve engine that had been pushed into service), it came to be one of the premier ground attack aircraft of the war, scourge of the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe alike; excelling through D-Day, the Normandy campaign, and the Allied advance through Europe and VE Day. While there were many nationalities of pilots and crew involved in Typhoon operations, the primary operators of the Hawker Typhoon were: Royal Air Force ( RAF ) Royal Canadian Air Force ( RCAF ) Royal New Zealand Air Force ( RNZAF ) Royal Australian Air Force ( RAAF ) Hawker Typhoon JP843 served with 197 Squadron RAF, 198 Squadron RAF, and 609 Squadron RAF between September of 1943 and July of 1944. She was lost, along with her pilot, Peter March Price, RNZAF on the 27th of July 1944 in the battlefields of France.The development of the Typhoon led to the Hawker Tempest V, which outperformed the Typhoon. Due to this, and the end of World War II, the Hawker Typhoon was quickly scrapped and replaced, with only one example of over 3300 surviving. This example, Hawker Typhoon MN235, only survived by chance after being sent to the United States Air Force ( USAF ) for evaluation during the war. With approximately 9 hours of flight time, the USAF crated the Typhoon and stored the aircraft with many others. Eventually becoming an asset of the Smithsonian, the Typhoon was traded back to the UK's RAF Museum Hendon in 1968 for a Hawker Hurricane. With no airworthy Hawker Typhoons or Hawker Tempest V's airworthy, we are committed to returning JP843 to the skies and preserving the legacy of all who took part in the development and operation of the amazing aircraft.To watch our videos before they are available on UA-cam, and to see them advertisement free, please consider subscribing to our video channel; every penny earned will be used to advance the rebuild of Hawker Typhoon JP843!Follow this link to subscribe: typhoonlegacy....
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A fantastic explanation on the heat treating process. And this was just for 2024 series aluminum. Ian could easily put together another 2 hours on say the 6000 series aluminum and others, etc, etc.
Obviously Ian is not going to carry these parts over for each and every batch, so there is the shipping worry (damage!!) and cost, as well as the heat treating process itself. And time!!. Once again Ian turns difficult into "that looks easy". Who ever did the filming/editing did an outstanding job, and kudos to the Pyrotek group for concise explanations. Good on ya mates !!!
Thank you Ed! ~Ian
Thank's to pyrotek and to you Ian. Interesting.
Thanks for the update!
Hello everyone,
I relive the days when I took metallurgy courses in my graduate studies when I was younger. I'm 69 now.
And this video is really very interesting.
A fascinating and technical video, but supremly enjoyable. Thank you Ian.
Best video yet! 👍🙂
Your explanation of the crystalline properties of metals was way better than my university lecturer's attempt 😊
Seeing the ferry crossing reminds me that I need to get back to Vancouver some day as there's so much more I need to see! Might even be a Sabre powered bird loitering around too 😉
This is one of those subject normally presented with a monotone voice and squiggly chalk board drawings! The ferry is something we all dread, but when you move away for a few years it really is nice to cross, especially in good weather! ~Ian
Bobby Orr...WTF? I'm from Boston and my dad's from Nova Scotia. Good ole #4 from the Bruins haha...Eh? I played junior A...Eh!..
Ian, can you do a video outlining the behind the scenes stuff, like the record keeping and inspections you have to do along the way to ensure the plane can be successfully certified and flown? What classification will this airplane have, and how will that affect these requirements? It's certainly not the fun part of this project, but I'm vaguely aware that there are a whole lot of beaurocratic requirements and hoops to jump through in order to get to your desired result.
I will likely amplify this process as we move forwards, but am not sure about doing a video on it quite yet, it could be a bit dry in one shot! ~Ian
An actual look at the process, rather than just a term in a book: "....then solution heat treated and quenched." That's the thing I really like about this project- it's real and it's happening! Very cool! Good show!
Thank you Owen! ~Ian
Working with aluminum for years, I have had many explanations of the heat treat process, finally
an actual view of the thing makes years of imagination solidify into true understanding...THANKS !!!
I'm glad it did the trick! ~Ian
Enjoyed that but was surprised to see temperature in F in a technical process in Canada. I thought you guys were metric but I looked it up and found that, like us Brits, you are kind of halfway :-)
All over the map here; aerospace in particular is all imperial in Canada. ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Good to see we are not the only ones :-D
#4 is younger in this film😅😶😎
makes me wonder how this was all done back in the day these planes were first made, if it indeed was done...
It would have been the same system; it's hard to imagine they had the time to get done what they did. ~Ian
Excellently explained. It takes me back to my applied engineering science A levels all those years ago. You'd do very well as a tutor. Keep up the good work.
Very interesting. Also, how did Hawker do this, 'back in the day'?
It would have been the same process, not too much has changed aside from the digital recording and tracking. ~Ian
Another fascinating episode! And you must've made a great teacher. So chilled!
Anyway...fun. Do you recommend anything like this for a scratch build G A aircraft???something in less than a 900° range?
Correct temperatures must be adhered to and all work must be done IAW the specifications for the materials used. Hard no on recommendations otherwise bud! ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Thankin u for ur reply
I'm learning heaps about aluminium.
Wow , this is getting deep . Very interesting 🙂👍 Question would the process applied here , have been the same when these aircraft were originally manufactured in the 40’s ?
This process would be the same for all processing of wartime sheet metal structure formed into compound shapes. ~Ian
Everything exists due to processes going on at an atomic level, with protons neutrons and electrons it all going on all the time. Without heat hardly anything happens it’s fascinating if taught properly. Ian your a great teacher you make it interesting.
An unsolicited plug.....if you enjoy these videos, consider supporting the project any way you can.
I did, and happy to be a small part of this undertaking!
Thanks for showing the process.
Ian, she left a little blemish after the Rockwell test, bet that hurt. My favorite video so far, fascinating, thanks, I learned a lot.
The hardness test is all a known part of the process, another reason why we leave extra material on each new part; this area will be trimmed off when the part is fitted. ~Ian
Another great video a lot of the technical information went over my head,
but still enjoyed it, cheers Ian keep up the good work 👍✈️
I have a degree in chemistry, and thoroughly appreciate and enjoy your explanations at the atomic level !
Awesome explanation. Thank you for posting
Incredibly interesting Ian. Is that all the frames finished for the Typhoon . Very exact process and no doubt very expensive ! Was the same process carried out originally ? Small wonder these aircraft were so complex in construction. Would aircraft of similar construction i.e. Spitfire have to gone through the same process ? I wonder how much one would cost today ? Millions no doubt! Well, l admire your complete commitment to this project . Thank goodness for people like yourself lan. Thankyou. Take care and stay safe.
Hi John, I will be finishing up the frame splice plates, forward ring and frame K very soon, these frames are all a bit special, so will go through HT either individually, or in a batch with our fin ribs that are now waiting their turn in the oven. Wartime production would have seen this same process carried out on all complex sheet metal parts, Spitty would be no exception. ~Ian
Very interesting indeed. The amount of work needed to do this job properly is mind-boggling. Finding it difficult to believe the British Typhoon RB396 will be airborne in 2024 (which was their target).
I just realised I don't know anything.
Excellent as ever! 😎
Is there any film of a typhoon production line?
I am really glad to see this Materials Technology video posted, so many of todays "modern man" appear to think that all is required to reconstruct something is to 3D scan and print it! They seem to have no idea that materials are a major factor in it's function, I very much doubt that these people would last 2 mins into this video, so they will remain stupid! Good luck with your build, it all looks superb! Chris B.
Thank you Chris, these types of videos are niche for sure, with luck they will intrigue the younger generations. ~Ian
Thanks for the solution description makes sense now about how the wing spars on on the A380 Airbus are built. They are too long to make in one piece so they are joined together, but not By welding. They’re pushed together end to end and a rotating arbor is pushed through the join the friction of the rotating arbor takes the temp up to temp where they can effectively be stirred together, a “solution” type temp, the arbor passed right through the join and out the other side. Apparently if you section the metal there is no difference in the metal in the join or away from the join, molecular stirring. Spoke to a guy in a pub who shot blasts the underside of the same wing spars to prevent cracking. It hammers the surface precisely and put the substrate under compression preventing cracks developing at an atomic level. Apparently cracks develop under tension not compression. Amazing what you can learn over a beer! or two.
Wow, I've never hear of friction welding an aluminum spar! ~Ian
Thank you for sharing this step in the proces of building the Typhoon. As an engineer I understand the process but you hardly see it being shown. It occurred to me that I have never seen a film on all the parts being built for the thousands and thousands of aircraft that were built during the war. A tremendous effort no doubt. Did see a documentary on building the legendary Merlin engine. Just imagine how many parts had to be made to build all the machines. How many rivets went into them. Every single oart had to be manufactured and put together in sub assemblies and being put together to get the machines in the air. Wish there was some way of sneaking back and see it all happen........
It's very hard to imagine the worldwide effort on both sides of the conflict, hopefully these videos help bring a small level of understanding. ~Ian
I recommend the registration to be C-HWKR until I come up with something better. Maybe C-AMMM is better.
Awesome ideas! ~Ian
Also aviation equivalent of $6million man.
Really interesting stream, thanks
Good episode Ian, as a matter of interest how much did the heat treatment cost you?
The wonderful team at Pyrotek very kindly provided this service at no cost to the project! ~Ian pyrotekaerospace.com/
Really nice heat treatment, I suppose the hardness testing is HRB, is the parts thick enough to be meassured with the 100 kg load? Also, it is allways adwiseable to include a specification where it is allowable to measure, or to include a coupon of the original material to perform the hardness test on. But it looked like a really nice heat treatment shop, and really minimal warpage, you wont get the fully aged 42 condition, until about after a week. Really enjoyed this episode. Cheers 👌
Thanks Peter, the hardness tests were conducted on the extra material that we leave on the parts for trimming, all will be removed when fitted to the aircraft. Near NIL for warp on these, I was very impressed! T42 is a 96 hour room temp age, but most hardness is attained withing the first 18-24 hours, so testing can be done at that time, if there were any that were still soft they would have been re-tested after aging longer. All was great with this batch. ~Ian
Ian, you could pay for the whole thing just by getting Bobby Orr’s autograph on a few pucks and selling them on EBay
Hi Daniel, I was wondering when someone would mention that! I tried so hard not to comment on it when I was there, but ended up asking him if anyone ever passes up the opportunity to make a comment; he said no. ~Ian
Brings back memories for me with W's, N's & P's as every single part would be engraved with it. Shame they didn't mention the spec ranges they were looking for in conductivity and hardness for those viewers who didn't know. From memory for W condition roughly 32-36 for conductivity and 125 -160 Hardness (In Vickers not HRB) - Rockwell wasn't permitted on Aluminium Aircraft parts at Hawkers (oops).
900 degrees freaked me out a bit then I realised it was Fahrenheit not Celsius doh!
If you'd used clad 2000 series, you would have had a lot more adjusting to do.
With the frames being in W(N) condition, rather than P - you will still be able to tweak them a minor amount (typical Hawkers logic).
Hi James, Karen mentioned her ET ranges when she was calibrating her equipment, there is a correction factor that was applied for material thickness, so she worked in three ranges based on line item. These parts are all 2024, I was suitably impressed by the lack of rework required post quench! ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Those ET (Conductivity) ranges are for the test blocks not the material being tested.
Unfortunately Nadcap certification means you have to calibrate your equipment every time you sneeze (literally). Not a problem when you are doing Conductivity Testing, but a costly one in both time and money when you are doing hardness testing & heat treatment.
That's also where these correction factors come from. They (Nadcap) were insistent on companies using them, to gain said certification.
It flew in the face of the actual material specs and the testing requirements of the big Aerospace firms - which I had test certification for.
The only time you will run into trouble with conductivity testing, is when you have very thin sheet (stacking components is/was allowed under BAE/Hawker's LOI's*) or you have very thick clad sheet (then you would remove the cladding as specified in the LOI).
*LOI Local Operating Instruction - the material specs would tell you to refer to the LOI's.
Something I knew next to little about, now I know a lot more and once again absolutely fascinating. During the war would Hawkers have been carrying out the same process on a colossal scale?
Many thanks for posting.
Hi James, the process would have been the same for heat treating, it really hasn't changed too much. ~Ian
Thanks for the update, now I know what heat treatment is all about😁👍
Excellent video👍. One thing I don’t understand is the freezing to slow down the hardening: how does this affect the final mechanical properties of the component and how is this reflected in the grain structure? Sorry if it’s a bit beyond the scope of the video!
BC certainly looks a beautiful part of the world!
The freezing of the parts after quenching slows the precipitation process which give you a bit more working time with the part in "W" condition, there is no change in the final temper from this process. ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd thanks Ian👍. Another piece for the knowledge bank!
Love the information
Very well explained.
Thank you for the detailed explanation, very informative. Also to Pyrotek.
A great team! ~Ian pyrotekaerospace.com/
Wow! That's a big step forward. You've got some great people involved. Well done.
We can't thank Pyrotek enough for their support, their efforts will go a long way to help us get JP843 in the air again! ~Ian pyrotekaerospace.com/
Excellent, as usual!
very very interesting.
Amazing
Fascinating stuff!
Wow!
Rockwell 'B' ?
Do you notice how the sound the parts make when you tap them together changes after heat treatment?
I believe so yes. ~Ian
Much the same as driving rivets! ~Ian
is the aluminum used for this project different to the aluminum used during ww2,
Ever so slightly. There is a lot to talk about to really answer that, but the short answer is that they are both aluminum copper alloys that have very similar chemical composition and strength. The British spec was B.S. L.3 or DTD 390, which equates to more modern 2014 T3 cald aluminum. This is 2024 alloy, the specifications for the SAE alloys can be found on the web if you are interested in doing a comparison. ~Ian
@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd And 'L' series alloys were still being used when I started back in the early 70's .Not much difference in how they were worked though.
We did hand make a lot of stuff but we also had massive hydraulic presses and formers.
Aluminium tends to do as its told when 50,000 pounds per square inch is talking!
Well done cool info
Brilliantly explained well done.
Many thanks! ~Ian
Great little lesson on basic metallurgical material science Ian! Good old FCC unit cells😉
Very interesting. So much more than I ever imagined