Man I was born in the 2000's so until Tian come out I liked and felt represented in Jasmine and Pocahontas because they were the only dark skin girls LOL
@@galeriadaluzz262 as a Nigerian girl born in 1999, before the princess and the frog, my closest representation was Kida from Atlantis because she looked like the closest thing to an African princess. I think Esmeralda is one of the prettiest Disney girls (like top 3), i loved the muses from hercules 😍😍, I also really gravitated towards Mulan as well because of her personality.
(Not so) fun fact: Whenever I've seen Disney Princess-themed things here in Japan, they never use Tiana. They'll use classic characters, then skip right over her and use characters (even ones not even princesses) after her. Not surprising, but annoying.
I live in Japan and one of the saddest things I notice is that Tiana is never on anything including all other princesses. It’s easy to say “it’s a Japan thing” but I think it’s a Disney problem. THEY feel that it won’t resonate in the market. Also, am I the only who is tired of every black person thing being about jazz? Not that jazz is bad… but why is it the only black culture celebrated??
within creative styles (fashion, music, poetry, visual art, etc)- black people are to thank for basically creating the primary colors of music, almost every new genre we enjoy today can still be traced back to black origins (such as rock n roll, country, jazz, techno, house)
Disney in Japan is dictated by Disneyland. The resort is very undiverse as they hire cast members to represent many characters, also the park isnt owned by Disney. So OLC is being cheap. Hong Disney on the other hand has great diversity and is owned by Disney. If OLC invested in representation, then the merch and popularity of Tiana would reflect that. Also I recently saw Tiana merch in green parks fashion shop so maybe some change is coming.
It reminds me of how they edited the Black Panther movie poster in China so that it wouldn’t show Chadwick Boseman’s face for some inexplicable reason. As though somehow Chinese people still wouldn’t clock that the movie is full of black people. But Black Panther still had the 2nd biggest opening returns of any Marvel movie in China to that date, made a ton of money, and got rated higher on Chinese review sites than the 1st Captain America movie. Also Disney notably didn’t shy away from featuring Chris Evan’s in promotional material in China, despite him also being a foreigner. So there are definitely double standards at play with Disney assuming that white people are palatable everywhere, but black people are not.
On a different, much pettier note: I am still salty that Disney bought the rights to The Frog Princess by E.D. Baker. That is one of my favorite books, and now it will NEVER be made into anything. And Disney did NOT have to do that. Princess and the Frog had NOTHING to do with the book except for the "girl also turns into frog" premise, which was not even done in the same way (in the movie it's because of "blah blah blah not a real princess curse loophole", and in the book it's because the princess had on an anti-curse bracelet from her witch aunt) and so would in no way be considered an infringement of copyright. Just another thing Disney did that I will be pettily salty for for the rest of my life
Sadly Disney tries to buy out everything they can. Like the phrase, “Hakuna Matata” or even Día de los Muertos (Day of the Dead). Disney always tries to get away with trademarking anything to do with their brand just so they can have control over it. It’s honestly frustrating to see how they abuse their power as a monopoly.
@@magdalene47 Frozen is suppose to be based on the Snow Queen, but it has nothing with book other than a young girl finding the Snow Queen. Princess and Frog at least kinda makes sense in it's own right. Frozen can't even do that right. No respect at all😞😞😞😞😞😞.
What annoys me the most about Pixar and Disney in relation to Black led films is that the main character (in both Princess and the Frog and Soul) turn into little creatures, a frog, and some blue thing. Whereas in films like Frozen, we can have both an all-White cast, and creature characters, i.e. Olaf. Where are our fully Black Disney and Pixar films??
@@candyxoxo19 that was just Princess and the Frog. It took place on New Orleans, so of course they wanted to incorporate voodoo. It's just the general atmosphere and setting
Because the worldwide audience doesn't want an all black cast, unfortunately. They care about the money far more than any sort of representation. I'm pretty sure Black Panther is one of the lowest grossing Marvel movies overseas - especially Asian markets.
I mean. Even in coco, most of the film is just skeletons with colors on them. Tho our culture IS more prominent on it than Princess and the Frog and Brother Bear
I thought Soul was less "Pro-Life" and more "Anti-Suicide". Not that it can't be both. But all my friends who struggled with or still struggle with suicide said the movie really made just the idea of sticking around and being alive finally click for them. That life isn't about purpose but life is about being.
when the princess and the frog came out, i was the target audience. a nine year old black girl from louisiana. and i LOVED it. of course as a child i didn’t notice or care about where the story fell short. i’m still very attached to the movie bc so many of my childhood memories center this movie (i had a princess and the frog themed birthday party). growing up and realizing the problematic nature of the movie was a little bit of a blow for sure. (also i love louie & ray ray 😅)
I also love Louie and Ray Ray haha! Also, I'm not black, but my little sisters are and they were seven when it came out (I was nine). Noticing the issues now is disappointing, but at the same time we have a fondness for the movie and seeing a princess that was so strong and beautiful and made my sisters feel so happy will always make me like this movie a lot.
Yea. As she says in the video, we're still allowed to like these movies. And I definitely do. The most important thing to me with these is that knowing they are intended for children, is seeing yourself on screen and getting joy from them as a kid. And these movies definitely do that.
I feel the same. Except about Louie, I find him a little grating. Also I was an adult white lady when it came out. I thought it was just beautiful, I was very excited to see a new hand drawn Disney movie, I was extremely happy to see a Black princess... I didn't even realize that the story was lacking until the second or third time I watched it. I still like it, but I wish they had done more with Tiana. It would have been cool if they'd done like Princess said in the video, and made her active in civil rights in her community. I know they like to act like they can't do that, but I think you could absolutely make an animated movie about Rosa Parks, and you can't ignore her role as a civil rights activist to do that. Why not Tiana?
yep. i have accepted that the way i view cartoons is gonna be different than these other cartoon youtubers, as im a black woman studying african american studies in college in a male (and white) dominated space. it doesn't mean anyone is better or worse than each other, it's just what the audience wants to see. if people wanna hear about racism (and other issues) in cartoons and live action kid shows, they come to me. if they wanna hear someone just talk about the media for its art and story, they go to someone else. i've had to accept that's why my audience isn't as big as everyone else because of my niche.
Hey! I got into you after watching your commentary on Monster High, Bratz, and Ever After High! Just like you, I'm a Black doll collector and cartoon lover, and our space and support by the elites are very limited. I notice the ones getting most of the attention speak to a very specific audience.
@@GenerationNextNextNext Another problem with Disney is that (Song of the South) may have permanently scared them from representing black culture, beyond anything surfacelevel. Theres a reason why Disney never gave that film DVD release.
"When I think about how Disney has failed black folks and brown folks in general, it's not just making subpar movies, it's not just in the stereotypes, but in creating an environment in which young people are taught to put all of their cultural representational stakes into a monopoly that wanted to trademark "hakuna matata" and Dia de Los Muertos." Nailed it!
I know this is so random and has nothing to do with what you said but just letting everyone who sees this comment that hakuna matata means there are no problems not no worries for the rest of your day
I love Tiana as a character, and I enjoy Charlotte as a character, but on the whole it is admittedly a very problematic dynamic. I feel like Encanto and Turning Red were such massive steps in a better direction. Mirabel’s dynamics are with her own family, and Mei’s story is equally about both her friends and her family. And both those movies weren’t afraid to have their main character’s journeys tie into their cultures.
@@ginogatash4030 Princess and the Frog is not suppose to be about representation, it's yet another fairytale adaptation with some black characters thrown it.
@@ginogatash4030baby steps for black people and large leaps for everyone else. We still don't have a regular standard animated black prince. I don't racially ambigious most like indian naveen, I mean a unambigously dark skinned prince.
i really wished disney gave tiana a black friend instead of charlotte. i like charlotte's character, but i can not stand how so many disney stans took the attention away from the tiana in her own movie to the white woman because the movie kinda did the same. it's like disney continues to try to give up representation and fails at the same time cause they just don't get it. it was like "sure! you can have a black princess, but she's broke the whole movie and she has a rich white best friend go figure!" i loved this movie as a kid but now as an adult i get so annoyed with it. i love tiana, i love the positive influence she had on my life, but omg i wish she got a better movie. the movies wasnt even really about her, it was about new orleans.
@@ayeilak5 I dont think, the creators of the movie wrote Tiana thinking to depict the only child Black experience. It feels more, like she was part of a Black community, they were too lazy/not interested to portray.
I don't have anything meaningful to add the discussion, but on a lighter note, I strongly agree that Tiana is one of the most beautiful characters in animation and def deserved better. When the movie came out, I was a teen and she was one of my first female crushes (along with Nami from One Piece). Still took me some time to admit to myself that I was bi. 😅
A good animated fairy tale with all black characters where the protagonist and villain have a close relationship is Kirikou and the Sorceress by Michel Ocelot. Wich is based in a story of an actual folk hero from West Africa. Highly recomend it, and hope more people in the animation comunity give it atention.
@@taikaniinimaki7234 Except in Brazil, where has a lot, and i mean A LOT of fans (considering our own media is very whitewashed despite the country having one of the biggest black populations outside of Africa, Kirikou meant a lot for afro-brazilian audiences, specially children who got to see an animated hero who looked like them).
That's one of my favourite movies! I remember seeing it by coincidence while channel flipping as a little kid. I was glued to the television. (Literally. There was construction going on outside and I had to sit very close to hear the dialogue)
I feel like Encanto and Turning Red (the latter of which IS an "own-voice story") might be good signs for Disney when it comes to having stories with non-white main characters and cultural narratives. So fingers crossed that they keep up with that and can produce SOME black narrative that is... good.
I feel like the closest thing to a cool Black Disney princess we had was Suri from Black Panther. 🤣 Wish her actor hadn't turned into an anti-vaxxer. 😥 But I agree about Encanto and Turning Red. I thought they were both absolutely amazing! I can't speak to the Asian diaspora of the latter, but for me as a Latine Encanto hit every note of the kinds of connections I have in my own family (I have a parallel to literally every Madrigal), even though I'm not Colombian. I've heard some Colombian folks both loving and disliking the movie, but the latter more with the specifics than with the general characterization, message, etc. Fingers crossed the success of those movies will lead to a growth, inside or outside of Disney, of better/more representation of BIPOC creators, rather than these being the single shining stars for each type of group.
White America is far more uncomfortable about blackness specifically than it is about other minorities because of the mixture of their dehumanization of us and their guilt about it (for those that at least have the decency to feel any guilt about it to begin with). Blackness in America has similarities but isn't really like Asianness or Latinness. Culturually and historically a very different history of oppression. IMO, I think our closest corrolary is with Native Americans in terms of systemic brutality and dehumanization.
My high school art teacher worked on lion king and then laid off due to Disney transition to 3D. I remember him telling us that he had a friend at Disney who said they were going to use 2D on a upcoming African American princess( what came to know as princess and the frog) and if the audience didn’t like the art style, they were going back to 3D for another snow princess( what came to known as Frozen) . Basically, Disney used the princess and frog project as a test to see if people were still into 2D …
Wow. I actually thought it was an honest mistake that they just wanted to make it "match" the previous princess films since at the time Pixar was doing all of the 3D animation with usually original stories but all the previous princess films were 2D and I came here to say basically that it's bullshit they never bothered to make another Black 3D princess after they found out that 3D animation sold better also in princess films which......well of course the biggest animation studio in the world would test those things not just make silly mistakes..... Genuinely watching the clips that Princess uses actually makes me miss the 2D animation style that I haven't watched in awhile, criticisms of the writing aside the animation is actually really good and I do wish it still had more of a place, like I wish we could have 2D animation of this quality on TV shows or something but it's still expensive so I doubt it, and it still can't hold up to what big budget #D animation can do. Perfect time to make a 3D animated Black princess with proper writing when are we going to see that?
@@GraysTakeuh, no… it was a gauge to see if audiences were still interested in the classic 2D animation or whether they should completely switch to CGI?
@@EmberAlexander-x5hif you’re interested in writing or animating you can aspire to pitch your own show/film that meets all the specifications you want it to, I don’t know why you’re expecting Disney to do that for you tho
As a black girl from Louisiana, The Princess and the Frog was EXTREMELY disappointing to me. I remember leaving the theater at 18 being upset that I didn’t love it. I watched Tangled later and was mad I liked it more. It felt like it was designed for me but it just didn’t have any substance. And I might’ve forgiven that if the music was hitting but even that was just so lack luster. How do you have a story about a black woman in NEW ORLEANS and the music is forgettable? It’s a cardinal sin.
Felt the same way. I was so frustrated she was a frog the whole time, amongst other issues. And the music was amongst the most forgettable Disney has put out. So so so disappointing.
As a Black man with a Lot of fam from the Shreveport area, I had high hopes for Disney finally making a "Black" princess AND it was taking place in New Orleans!! But when I finally saw it some years after (in my late teens) it came out I was disappointed too. Other than Tiana's dad, the way they portrayed Black American men was very stereotypical in a bad way (rude, lazy, sneaky, helpless, etc.). And of course the "prince" couldn't be a Black man but some tanned dude from Spain smh...they just couldn't put a positive light on both our men And women. Then it really annoyed me that Tianna had to be a frog most of the movie, it shows how uncomfortable many White people are with our complexion. I thought the music was decent, but I feel like they lacked effort and didn't have that banger(s) that most Disney renaissance movies have. But yeah, they could've done A LOT better...
Tangled was underwhelming for me, too, so I just though Disney was slipping. Frozen was overrated, too. Had too many plot holes for me. The only movie I loved in recent years from Disney was Big Hero 6, Zootopia, Encanto, Turning Red, and Moana.
i felt the exact same way. For a lot of Disney movies, Like Frozen, Cinderella, etc (for example) the story doesn't do much for me but the music hits. I really figured Princess and the Frog would at LEAST have good music and it literally just ... didn't have anything lol.
Our first Black American princess and she gets stuck in the real world of America and gets turned into a frog for a majority of the movie 😢. It's suppose to be a fairytale and yet we get no escapism, no fantastical fantasy and no representation.
and she only exists because they took a GERMAN fairytale and changed it to 20s new orleans so they could change her race easily. I love the movie but the fact that Tiana is in reality a medieval German princess is..... Plus to add insult to injury they showed Eudora reading the German story to Tiana and Lottie so they awknowleged that yeah , the real Tiana is a different race, different nationality and is from waaaay in the past.
@@finland4ever55 - I don't care if the fairytale is German but how they went about it or choosing THAT story knowing she won't even be a human for most of the movie, ect.. I didn't even bother seeing it yet blacks still saw it and took THEIR children to see it, expected what? It's desperate. Then who made money off the dolls and merch sold? Not blacks. Anyway, Django was a great movies that basically did the same thing but very well and I hate any movie with 'slavery' as a topic, when I can read a book and know how to research and when I do there was way more to us then that same story. For example, not all of us where slaves! Lastly, whites have stolen stories (and history and even white washed images and created revisionist history to place themselves in it along with false statues) from us and others anyways! So, you don't know what's truly 'theirs', unless you actually do. Be carful of what you call 'white' just assuming when that is the agenda...for you to accept and automatically assume what was 'black' as being 'white' now, because they've pushed that lighter/whiter image in your face, since childhood, for all your life and no one questions it or cares about history to research outside of school, or too lazy and want it microwaved and don't read book but THEY do so that they can get ahead of it and everything you call 'history' to lie and rewrite it and put a white face on it while telling you your history is just trauma, being a slave, civil rights, getting beat, killed and owned, struggle and misery, white saviors and always been under the heel of some white mans boot waiting for someone white man to save us and turning the other cheek when being slapped. That all too many blacks talk about when it comes our 'history' anyways so why would they give you anything different. I blame black people for these crappy images, scripts and roles of blacks in movies and never use the power of boycotting just complaining yet expecting something different as it drags a*s to just give you a crumb and still make money off you.
@@finland4ever55 I'm pretty sure at least several other European countries had their versions. (Not talking about how the old versions are, as always, much more brutal than the modern kids' versions.) But yeah, it doesn't help.
I’m glad someone else caught it. I love Tiana, but smth about the way Tiana’s story is written - especially the older I get - feels INCREDIBLY like the usual conservative “bootstraps” narrative. I feel like that would be particularly damaging to the young Black girls it’s meant for
@@finland4ever55 I don't give a shit if it's German in origin b/c this is Disney's version of the fairytale, that's like me having a problem with Disney's live action Little Mermaid; what I care about is that this takes place in the real world of New Orleans in an obvious set time that takes out most of the fantastical elements of a fairytale story where the locations may be familiar, but is it's own thing.
Considering that Disney completely destroyed Mulan with its live-action remake, I shudder if they even dare do a live-action remake of Princess and the Frog.
That would literally be my last straw. I’m actually horrified by the thought. They’d make naveen white and have them walking down the street together in a white town and act like that wouldn’t be risking her life
So, i'm South East Asian, specifically Malaysian, and personally, i'd rather Disney and Hollywood leave our culture alone. If media corporations want to "give us representation", please give money and resources to our local South East Asian creators to tell their own stories in their own way instead. Hollywood does not hold the monopoly on the world's cultures, nor are any entities like Disney, the place for any and all representation.
It would be fantastic. The big problem is that it probably doesn't align with capitalist interests, like Disney doesn't _want_ to give smaller companies resources because it cuts into their own profit. Not saying that this is acceptable, just that corporations can't be relied upon to do things that are especially charitable.
Well, they did make Moana and that was quite fun and good. At least I liked it and so did many of my Filipino friends. But I do get what you're saying XD
Exactly! There are a lot of up and coming animation companies all over the globe making art for their own people. I'm thinking of something like Cartoon Saloon in Ireland, and how they receive government grants to make films about Irish culture. I hope in the future, we have tons of animation and media coming out of every country! It can be a really great window into another place, while also showcasing the art and history of that place.
As someone from New Orleans, the princess and the frog didn’t feel like New Orleans… 1) I really wanted human Tiana in New Orleans as a human- not in a random bayou as a FROG? 2) Nola is all about community- I doubt the community aspect wouldn’t be different in the 30s 3) Nola was and still kinda is very segregated- there are different districts with uniquely different feels, dialects, and prejudice (++No one says New OR-Leans, only the old whites of the garden district; no one says Nawlins) 4) Voodoo is a term used to generalize and villainize the non Christian/catholic religions from the enslaved communities and native cultures- 5) Disney fucks up a lot of poc characters Pocahontas(high key disgusting) etc. It’s just sad
I'm from New Orleans too, and I live near the French Quarter. Perhaps me and you don't share the same reality, but New Orleans is not segregated, rather the divide today is between poor people and the rich. The bayou is a place of magic in our Louisiana Creole lore. This is where you find monsters like the rougarou, lutins (magical animals), guerisseurs (medicinemen), and our gris-gris magic. You didn't commonly find these magical traits in our city during that period of time, as New Orleans was becoming progressively Americanized.
I agree with #5...it's nothing new at all even if those films are considered classics. but #4? They aren't generalizing and villainizing those religions at anything.
@@Jdudec367 voodoo is very villainized in media and has been for a long time. Especially in the horror sub genre. Post poc and native practices have been. Its been such a prominent thing for such a long time time now, and I’m into spirituality and even before that I knew this. I do not practice it as i am white and do not even have the ancestry for it but it’s a black rooted practice. No hate but try looking into the history of its misrepresentation and hate online because it’s so much more than just using voodoo dolls to hurt others as the media usually shows it. I agree with op that most anything else other than Christianity rooted religions are stigmatized and villainized, and most are minority rooted.
@@plants_are_pretty_cool5851 Hell, the dolls don't even come from voodoo. They're a European magical practice from before white folks forgot that we used to curse each other all the time.
I have difficulty with Disney for the exact reasons you laid out. Not gonna lie, I’m hella jealous. They could have set the first Black princess movie in the Caribbean or even left it in the 1920s but set it during the Harlem Renaissance! But my dad used to always say, they will never let us (black people) forget our standing in this society/ world. Which is why Tiana’s mother had to work for rich white folks and Tiana herself had to struggle and bust her ass to get where she wanted to go. They are essentially telling us Black folks “this is who you are and this is who you will always be”. Love your work
Thank you for sharing what your dad told you, it’s helped lay out clearly for me a perspective I hadn’t even thought of before. I’m white and I’d never really thought too much about how the ways black people are presented could look positive to me, but actually aren’t because of what the representation is reinforcing but it makes a lot of sense. Now I can look at things again and be able to understand why it can be harmful instead of just seeing it surface level because of my race and not thinking too much about it, so thank you and thank you to your dad as well.
exactly. you worded this so well! and your dads logic is spot on. they won’t let us forget it. that’s why i feel a way about slave movies. i just can’t sit through it regardless if it’s in honor of our ancestors or not i just can’t. we deserve more complex yet regular narratives. we’re human beings too
''They could have set the first Black princess movie in the Caribbean '' for what? And that would no go well...at all. It isn't Caribbean but American production and American blacks are American, and they wanted one based in America. I'm not against your idea per say but you act as if what ruined it was it taking place in America with Americans or had an American first? There are hundreds of years of black American history that STILL hasn't been told, ONLY the same ol and tired ones as if that's all there is! The still have yet to tell our stories correctly or completely, as Americans. That's the point being made, why WE were upset not the fact that their American. Also, 'Voodoo' was not the only spiritual practice nor the most popular in the south, yet that takes up more space then it needs to or did, when speaking on black American/Creole spirituality. The movie eves Eves Bayou did the best job detailing this, so far. MOST are not even Haitian, they were not the majority. Most can't understand that being AN American CREOLE IS not the same NOR equates AS BEING HATIAN OR A HATIAN IMMIGRANT. Maria Laveau wasn't even Haitian nor did she JUST practice Voodoo, which of course isn't evil.
@@mahneekaha.nightmare5220 I hear what you’re saying. I honestly wasn’t thinking about the voodoo aspect when I mentioned the Caribbean. I thought of it more as a place with a rich and intricate black history. There indeed need to be spaces where African American creators are allowed to tell our stories with the fullness and richness they deserve. Untouched by white people’s ideas/ stereotypes.
@@DCoop1982 - Oh ok. Thank you for understanding where I was coming from and not getting offended. I appreciate that, and thanks for the clarification of what you meant.
Disney is a company that knows that they can do a little effort and get full support from the marginalized communities (especially lgbt and black) Disney has zero competition to push them to fight for our viewership.
But black folks do it even when there are many options. That's why a LOT of problematic people in entertainment and sports continue to have careers after expressing contempt for blackness (more often than not, specifically black women). I won't hurt anyone's feelings by naming their faves, but I've seen people get pass after pass after pass when saying and doing the most heinous, self-hating (or racist, if they're mixed/biracial) stuff. Because a lot of black folks want validation and attractive representation by any means necessary.
@@LadyAstarionAncunin 1. Context definitely matters an excuse is always an explanation but an explanation is not always an excuse. 2. Black men have been the biggest sellout for white dollars for the past six decades. Damn near every black male celebrity we have had has ran away from the black community in some capacity to build and make money for white people they’ve never came back Planted they’re wealth in the black communities so Black people can flourish and create more profit for themselves. Let’s not try and make this a gender war because trust me black men will lose. 3. Even if there were a bunch of sellout black celebrities playing pick me for white validation it wouldn’t change the fact that black viewers are choosing to act as if they have no self-respect when it comes to the demands that they want in a capitalist society. The whole politically right wing community went on a whole cancel Disney movement because they don’t like that Disney is trying to push more LGBTQ content.(Granted they’re never gonna leave) they are choosing to threaten Disney with their viewership they’re threatening Disney’s pockets. This is how Disney has been walking on eggshells to please them while also doing the bare minimum to please minorities and marginalized people. It’s time that the community does it themselves and if we’re not going to create our own capital then this is our next best bet
Yeah I think a lot of lgbtq people are starting to realize that Disney is terrible both at representation and where they spent their dollars (homophobic lawmakers getting pac money). Anti-blackness needs a lot more attention and like most corporations Disney doesn't give the black community enough respect. I'm hoping that we can all come together and challenge these corporate juggernauts in order to acquire a better future for all of us. It really is telling that Disney has so many black and lgbtq executives and they still get so much wrong. The culture itself is corrupting, as well as the money associated with being a corporate executive
On the topic of Raya, as someone who's SEA and surrounded by many different and diverse SEA/EA people -- friends, family, societally -- Raya was something no one really identified with. When I watched it with my group of (all Asian) friends, we pointed at the foods we recognized, the beautiful settings... and that was it. It was not a S/EA's story, like Turning Red's themes and messages about finding one's identity as a second gen Asian immigrant, and it wasn't something that focused specifically on one culture. Raya was a large mishmash of SEA cultures, which would've been fine if the culture and identities themselves were explored more, like in Moana, which also took important elements from various Polynesian cultures and combined them (and as someone living in Hawaii, my Hawaiian and Polynesian friends all loved it) but Raya's world felt so shallow. It was beautiful--it looked like our motherlands, it had our foods, and some bits of our language sprinkled in, but the world had no substance and rushed through all four nations with little development (attributed to pacing problems). It could've been about any race and any random dragon or mythological creature, but it just happened to be some empty, ATLA fetch quest of a movie. My friends identified with other films like Encanto, Moana, Turning Red, and Coco a lot more than what Raya could ever offer because they spoke to a cultural soul, something Raya lacked.
I knew it wasn't just me! And that I wasn't "just being too sensitive" either! I was so excited about the first black Disney princess!!! And she was a friggin frog for the majority of the movie!!! I was really excited about the animated movie Spies In Disguise with a black lead character who's also the hero! And he's a friggin pigeon for most of the movie!!! I was really hopeful about the movie Soul because it looked like it was more inclusive of black culture and he's either a blue soul or a friggin CAT!!!! Is it too much to hope for a children's movie with black lead characters that actually remain BLACK during the movie? Wtf? And NOOOOO there's nothing wrong with ME for noticing that shit!!+
And it shows the culture of this world as a whole, and the story of both the Prince and Tiana's character growth through their transformations, which by the way had been done MANY times in Disney - The Little Mermaid, Brother Bear(where he actually STAYS a bear at the end), and even Simba in the Lion King who pretty much becomes a completely different person almost degenerate before taking a look at himself and being who he should've been.
@@kevinzhang6623 yeah that's nice. I'd like to see black people depicted as actual human beings, that stay HUMAN BEINGS throughout the entire movie. That just might help humanize black people for many children. There's plenty of major motion picture princesses and main characters that get to be HUMAN the entire duration of the film. And it's not too much to expect to see some variety
Wouldn't the stories be completely different though? Especially for Princess and the frog. If she doesn't change into a frog then her whole character arc no longer exists. I get the issue of her turning into a frog, really I get it. But what would be a better rewrite then?
@@garrethb6261 a whole other story about humans who stay human throughout the movie is a good start. I've never read the story of the princess and the frog where she turns into a frog! It's always been about a princess who lost her golden ball in a well and a frog promised to go get the ball for her if she brings him back to her castle, let's him eat at the table with her, and sleep in her bed with her... She agrees but runs back to the castle without him after she gets her ball back. Her father the King hears about her breaking her promise and forces her to eat and sleep with the frog. When she does this for some time, she and the frog become friends, she kisses him and he turns into a prince! And they live happily ever after....
@@kylaarmstrong-benjamin8066 I don't think basing the movie off of the original fairytale would really work for a movie though, especially if all the plot points are the same. If there is a way to make it work then great, but I'm not sure how you'd make the original story interesting without having some big changes.
The lack of black representation from Disney is so intentional it’s crazy. There aren too many nuanced stories and source materials to draw from for them to only have princess and the frog and soul as the byproducts. I remember that during 2020 they created a highlighted section on their streaming service called Black Stories and the lack of options was so obvious in the fact that the lion king was a prominent focus of that section was crazy
The problem is that Blacks are limited to America and Disney doesn't know how to tell a good story, in an American setting. Disney has always been known for Fairytales, which usually are set in Europe.
@@orangeslash1667 There is a entire black continent with projected to be 1/4th of the earths population by 2050 with a rich history of empires, untold history, and even unknown history being researched today. And also there are plenty of stories African Americans could have told by disney, they just don't actually want to try.
@@crispri3919 Disney is known to experiment what animation can do. The problem is most Fantasy stories usually come from ether Europe or Japan. Disney is too incompetent to make a fantasy story in America, which is where Blacks usually are. Why Fantasy, because if it can be done in real live, for Disney it's not worth animating. That's why Tiana turns into a frog, can it be done in real life, Nooo. In animation YES!!!!
@orangeslash1667 Fairy tales and folk tales come from all over the world. If you look at Wikipedia alone, you'll find two different categorization methods because there are so many. There are fairy tales and folk tales from Africa. Brer Rabbit was based on the people brought over to America sharing tales from different tribes in a few different countries.
One weird thing about the transformation in TPATF is that it wasn't even necessary or relevant for Tiana and Naveen's character arcs. They could have learned about work-life balance without being turned into animals and being stuck in the bayou, and the film's moral/theme had nothing to do with nature or frogs or anything. Compare that to Disney's Beauty and the Beast, in which the Prince gets transformed because he was acting, well, beastly, and so his character arc is about learning how to act like a human being. Or how in Disney's Brother Bear (although that film has its own issues), Kenai gets turned into a bear so that he can learn a lesson about having more compassion for animals (and for bears in particular). Edited for clarity and to add this: I understand that any adaptation of The Frog Prince will require at least one of the main characters to be transformed into a frog. However, in some older versions of the tale, the Princess's character arc is essential to the Prince's salvation. The Prince is saved because the Princess loses her spoiled attitude and becomes his friend. But in Disney's TPATF, Naveen just needs a princess, any princess, to kiss him -- love and friendship are not required to break the spell, it's all a technicality. Tiana and Naveen's character arcs are the result of them influencing each other and learning from each other, which only happens because they're in a situation that forces them to work together and grow closer. Tiana and Naveen could have had identical character arcs if they had remained human and were thrown into a hostile wilderness, forced to rely on each other to survive. In summary: frog transformation in TPATF is disconnected from the story's themes. So it's not a good metaphor. If Disney wanted to adapt The Frog Prince and have the protagonist be their first African-American princess, then there were other, better ways they could have done it.
I would’ve loved a classic prince on the run has to hide in a commoner’s house and learns the meaning of hard work by helping out tiana and achieve her dreams. I wanted to see Tiana’s journey to develop her restaurant and just more interaction with new orleans itself.
You’re saying a lot without saying anything. How does any of what you described directly relate to them transforming into frogs? “Virtue whining” isn’t an informative phrase by the way.
@Cabal Paxiarch I’m simply asking you to explain the symbolic relationship. For example, one could say the Iron Giant is a metaphor for society’s over reliance on warfare/gun violence and is emphasized by the Giant choosing to be a symbol of peace rather than destruction despite his intended function and programming. His being a giant killer robot is essential to the subtext. The question for this conversation is what is the essential or symbolic need for Tiana to be a frog? Your statements about lessons in humility and “realizing what truly matters” are interesting, but you’re not connecting that to the significance of transforming into a frog. You can explain, or you can continue be pedantic without aim. Up to you.
I'm glad you kept this all as one video because it's very important and I think is more impactful when pair with your feelings about these two movies and the state of discourse online. I feel like I'm second guessing myself a lot. I really look at look to you and the others (like Tee Noir, Kimberly, Joulezy, and more) that engage with discourse because your passionate about it and not for clout - as people who affirm my thoughts, articulate these complex concepts I don't have quite have down, and even challenge me because like you said we're not a monolith.
Souls plot confused me, my music teacher both taught and played music professionally and for money with zero conflict. In fact I’d say that’s fairly normal thing for music teachers to do, especially in a large city. I didn’t hate the movie, it was fine but the main conflict was so bland.
I'm sure there's plenty of musicians who feel like being a school music teacher (especially teaching very young children) is below their skill level and not really up to what they could do if they just had the chance. Some might even feel that they're too good to teach that their talents are better served elsewhere. I'm also sure there's a lot of people who would like both teaching and playing professionally and wouldn't mind either. Hell there's probably people who like teaching more. It varies from person to person. I think the point in the movie was just that he felt like his true calling was to play professionally, and because that was his goal, anything less of that felt like he wasn't living up to his full potential. It's only after he plays there that he realizes that it didn't really matter, his happiness didn't come from playing professionally, it just came from playing. The setting didn't matter, what made him happy was playing music, no matter where, when or with whom. It's all just water in the end.
Honestly, I wished they focused more on the music. Some of the aspects in the movie felt a little too real in my opinion, and while there were some weird moments with the music ( Joe isn't really playing Jazz as much as contemporary), I'd rather focus on that more.
You nailed the mom's perspective pretty perfectly. The internal conflict of the movie was that Joe, like many people with high aspirations, was blinded from all the good in his life because of his aspirations. It's funny cause I can see why you were confused by the plot, but emotionally I relate much more with pre-epiphany Joe's feelings. I logically know I can still keep my passions and hobbies alongside my job, but there's still a strong internal feeling of "is this what my life really amounts to?" p.s. I am also a teacher, and watched this movie with my students and they told me they are really happy that life lead me to being their teacher. It made me cry and kind of pulled me out of the mindset of "How can I enhance MY LIFE." and got me thinking about the impact I can have on other lives :)
One of the things I always notice about Disney is that because they are so popular people react very emotively when they are criticised. Disney may be part of your childhood but it is not a progressive force.
I don't know about that. Plenty of people criticized Turning Red for really stupid reasons, and that movie is a Disney (and Pixar) movie. People fell for it.
Noticing this as I scroll through the comments. It's actually kind of triggering to watch people be talked down to just for having a differing option about DISNEY for Christ's sake!
@@rommix0 Another problem with Disney is that (Song of the South) may have permanently scared them from representing black culture, beyond anything surfacelevel. Theres a reason why Disney never gave that film DVD release.
I'm so glad you brought up the issue of representation being the whole point of many of these movies. I'm Mexican, and when I first watched Coco in theaters, I loved it, but every time I revisit it I see it much more critically (I don't hate it by any means, I just watch it without the excitement of watching it the first time and I feel I can analyze it a little more rigorously). Coco is a story set in Mexico, with Mexican characters, but how much is it a "Mexican story"? And I think a lot of our discussion around these films, especially just after their release, gets caught up in the little details and Easter eggs that they included. I admit it can be fun to watch little details that show that they "did their homework" (in Coco, for example, including cameos of certain obscure Mexican celebrities, or a poster in the background, or a street looking exactly like a street from a small Mexican town). But I then think it's a bit unfortunate that this "attention to detail" gets such praise that it can kinda obscure the fact that this isn't a story of ours, but rather a story told by someone else and fed back to us. But we visited your hometown and added an inside joke to make you feel special.
Yeah I thought it very interesting when she said she liked the princess and the frog when she watched it but not in the rewatch because (as a Mexican) I went to see coco with my sister and we enjoyed it, my sister even cried cause the character design for mama coco reminded her of our visabuela but then she went and watched it again with her partner and didn't really liked it after and told me not to re-watch it so it wouldn't be spoiled for me.
I can see where you're coming from and somewhat relate as an Asian American. I wish we could have an "Asian" movie not about "honor". Even when the movies about those family expectations like Turning Red it's still about that family "honor". Like we're just expected to have these values. And the abuse levels of helecopter parenting is portrayed as a joke. And it's okay because generational trauma and she's sorry. I don't hate the movies. Okay I sorta hate Reya even if I love seeing fairly clearly Asian queer characters on screen. I just hate this idea that we're so different.
As a Southeast Asian person, watching Raya just felt like watching another quest adventure movie, that has a Southeast Asian thinly veiled on it, without putting the effort to include themes and storylines that feel authentically Southeast Asian. I didn't get to resonate with Raya as much as I did with Turning Red and Encanto, which is unfortunate for Disney. In it's attempt to represent Southeast Asia, Disney manages to alienate the people they meant to represent. I could go on and on about how ineffective Raya was for a movie about Southeast Asian culture, but I recommend Xiran Jay Zhao's 3-part video about it, that explains a lot more than I do. I do agree with your statements to some extent and thank you for giving your opinion on it!
What about Big Hero 6? That one wasn't about honor as far as I remember. Ofcourse, 1 good movie to represent a group that is roughly the size of half the world population would still be poor representation.
@@MissMoontree That's a good one that I managed to forget. I really liked that one. But my point still stands about the issue. Especially in media surrounding their identity.
I mean it took YEARS to get a Black Lead in a Disney animated movies and they spend the majority of transformed into NONHUMANS. Make of that what you will.
So, Snow-White was an experimental film, the first of it's kind, it needed the lead as often as possible. Cinderella was made to save the studio and they rotoscoped almost the entirely of the film. Aurora only got 18 minutes of screen time during the entire film because she was so difficult and time consuming to draw (so was Tiana). Ariel had no legs during half of the film, and that cut down the budget, and like Cinderella, Disney was on their last legs again. Pun intended. Beauty and the Beast was done as then redone in a matter of months. Jasmine was the first darker skinned princess, but the movie was Aladdin, but he was also dark skinned. Pocahontas. That's it. Pocahontas. Mulan was Chinese. And then all the rest. Every princess has their reason for existing and most of them come from different places. Tiana came when she came. And if you want a list, German, French, English, Greek, French, Middle-East, North America, China, North America, Germany, Scotland, Norway, Hawaii. You've got diversity coming out of the wazoo, but all you see is skin tone. That's superficial and stupid.
@@dramonmaster222 I just gave you an explanation to the downsides, and the lack of appearances and budgets many of the films faced. Including Tiana. She was difficult to draw, you dolt, I mentioned that.
They didn't have to take away Tiana's white friend. In the segregated south it was possible for white and black folks to be friends (even if rare and risky), but they could have at least given her an equally close or closer black friend too. Just didn't make sense to me. Disney is particularly keen to drop the ball at every opportunity with representation, whether it's the black experience, or the existence of non-heterosexuals, or non-gender conforming individuals. I'm glad I never grew an attachment like a lot of people have to the properties and output of Disney.
@@clartblart3266 Another problem with Disney is that (Song of the South) may have permanently scared them from representing black culture, beyond anything surfacelevel. Theres a reason why Disney never gave that film DVD release.
Love this informed take! I’ve always said diversity is deeper than just [INSERT TOKEN BLACK CHARACTER HERE] or making a fictional yt character black. It’s about investing in black creatives to provide them with the tools & resources to create authentic & genuine black stories from the ground up.
Soul and The Princess and the Frog's take on art is an issue for me personally. I'm an indie artist and writer, with my own projects and freelance work, and I teach full-time, multiple subjects, all grades. It's fine to do both, and I frequently have to tell other artists that they are not failures for having a part or full-time job to supplement their income as artists. It's not easy to have a career in the creative fields and it can take years, decades even, of study, dedication and work to receive any recognition and success. As woman with ADHD, the struggle for time management is there and eternal, but if I need a break, I can take a break and I don't feel that I have to overwork myself. Having another job that ensures you have a place to live and food to eat will help you, in the long run. You will be less stressed and not forced to take poorly paid work out of desperation, thus finding clients who value your work and preventing bad clients from undercutting you.
I feel like it's absolutely insane that Disney, a company that undoubtedly overworks a lot of their employees, decided to create stories that taught its marginalized characters (and by extension their audience right?) to chill out and work less. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like it's so particularly condescending and enraging.
there’s absolutely something ironic abt a company that employs thousands of ppl dealing w millions of dollars telling ppl to not work so hard. the medium is… not the message
It is SUS. Disney is honestly WAY too conservative and capitalist for me a lot of the time. I still enjoy many of their movies, and I love to analyze them....but it's so superficial most of the time. Disney is not what I would call a good company. The only thing I can guess is that some of their animators and writers are trying to cry for help or get kids to not be stuck where they are.
I actually think it's important to note that it's the employees making the stories, not the CEO. It's very telling that Disney has such high reviews on job websites, too, better than most toy companies.
I never really took the lesson in The Princess and The Frog as "You don't have to work so hard" I always took it as "Even if you don't get what you thought you always wanted you can still be happy." Even though Tiana does get her restaurant and Naveen but I digress.
@@thaym.5822 The message is there's a difference between what you need versus what you want. The moves says that Tiana WANTS to own a restaurant, but it's not what she NEEDS.
I meen the messagge of the movie is there you need a balance. There is a difference betwin working hard, and working too hard. Yes working hard is important to achive your dreams but you can't just work in your life, you also need space for other things like hobbies, friends, family, a love life. Beeing a workalcholic it's not healthy, especialy since burnouts are very much a real thing .
I, too, will turn 30 soon, and I remember being so, so excited for the princess and the frog when it came out. I knew the frog bit was gonna be irritating, but I was gonna support it anyway cause we were finally getting representation! Sis. Within the first 10 minutes my excitement completely diminished and I thought I was going to cry. Tiana was gorgeous, Anika Noni Rose sounded amazing. Tiana's family and neighbors looked like such good people! But then her best friend was a rich white girl with no self-awareness, and my girl had nothing but hard work and absolutely zero faith. Reality/life kept beating her down, and it felt like I was being told that the magic ran out after the other Disney movies, so, just like us in real life, our Disney princess didn't have the privilege of naivete. We can't just wish on a star for once? Not even in a Disney fantasy movie? They couldn't even let her be the real main character! It broke my heart, and I barely finished it. Just once, I wanted to be able to drink the Disney princess kool-aid, but my girl still had to slave away and keep smiling at the white people. Plotwise, nothing that happened was really her fault, but somehow, everything became her responsibility to proactively fix/tend to, and she suffered for it. The movie does a poor job at black representation, but this particular point was so accurate about black women's role in society, and it fucking kills me. Tl;dr: Tiana remains a queen, but the princess and the frog movie remains one of my biggest childhood let downs and I'm still triggered lol Great video, as always! I also couldn't watch soul for literally the same reasons 😂
I don't get the job conflict in Soul either. I'm a music teacher and know a lot of other teachers, we all are capable of doing both haha. In fact, taking on the night gig with Dorathea would make him a better teacher, most likely. I always teach better when I have multiple types of projects on the go, because they can be drawn on and you are actively learning yourself, so you are more cognizant about the challenges your students face. (I know that's not the main point of this video, but I appreciate that you brought it up because I didn't really clue in to why that felt so off for me before)
I don't think that the conflict was that he had to choose between jobs, but facing the reality that even when your dreams come true, your problems won't go away if you don't address them properly. Sometimes your depression won't go away if you change your shitty job for one better job. We always have this vision of "when I'll reach X then I'll be truly happy!", which is often not true, because big problems won't suddenly disappear. Even if I would have liked to see him continuing with the band AND the school.
While I know Soul has its problems, I related so much to the main character (feeling stuck in life, lack of purpose, feeling like a failure and with a wasted life with no accomplishments whatsoever), that I can't dislike it. It really opened my eyes about the meaning of life and gave me a little hope for the future. I didn't see it as a "pro-life" movie because I thought that the main lesson is directed for who is already living, not for who has to be born yet.
Something that came to mind at around the 1:00:00 mark... whenever a marginalized creator has a messy take, it feels like instead of having a meaningful discussion about our identities and how we feel, we are simply performing discourse for white/cis people to consume. It's sort of voyeuristic in a way, all while placing certain marginalized identities on a pedestal that no one asked to be put in
Don't get me wrong but alot of the people who are held accountable for racist things are rich, a celebrity, something from a movie. It's business and niches being filled never expect it to go away as long as people want to consume THAT. IT WILL BE CONSUMED and these animals who thrive here give more reason to copy that and thrive yourself. Why did Jerry Springer do so well
@@xanv8051 Ok but that's not at all what I was saying though... I meant it more like, "trans creator has a messy take about being trans, other trans people start having a discussion around it about their identities as trans people, cis people join in for no reason"
just started the video, but i thought id just let you know that your summarization of princess and the frog made me laugh haha "where they meet two very annoying talking animals"
@@Princess_Weekes Another problem with Disney is that (Song of the South) may have permanently scared them from representing black culture, beyond anything surfacelevel. Theres a reason why Disney never gave that film DVD release.
Because of movies like this, I’ve started to build this dream of creating my own animation studio to make solely black female led movies. And I’d start with my own experience and build from there. I’m not particularly well incorporated with my own blackness, very much an Oreo. I’ve grown up in a LOT of PWIs and it took me a long time to really see the issues in a lot of the representation I saw. But, I also got a part of my black experience from my church that was full of people who grew up with only other black people. They gave me a lot more perspective, and I hope I can get a stronger identity at an HBCU.
I wanna create my own representation, and not just black women, but black girls. I want to make hella black girls cause I still don’t have a movie that I like with a black teen girl that I relate too. Whose story isn’t centered around oppression, drugs, rap, discrimination, and pain. I want black teen musicians who struggle with their artistry and finding themselves. I want stories with Oreos like me that have a conflict of culture and society. I want it all
@@betsycheddar Another problem with Disney is that (Song of the South) may have permanently scared them from representing black culture, beyond anything surfacelevel. Theres a reason why Disney never gave that film DVD release.
"Tiana is a character all about ambition, but the movie has none" Devastating and accurate observations, as always. It's so sad how shallow (and sometimes hollow) Princess and the Frog's characters are.
Your note about HP and the whole slavery storyline rings so true to me. I read HP later in life (religious parents) and I remember bringing up to my friends, who were potterheads, my criticisms with it's SPEW storyline, and how other magical creatures are treated as a whole. It's established that they are not only sentient, but have the capability to teach at hogwarts, run banks, all these "human" things, but still othered in a way that made me uncomfortable. The books really said that over racism is bad but institutionalized racism is just how things are, no, how things should be. I also brought up that it's interesting that people raged against Hermione being cast as black (cursed child had just come out at the time) and between the curly hair thing, slurs thrown against her by wizards nazis, being told shes one of the "good ones" by the 'non racist' wizardds, I was like "sounds like my experience of being smart POC at a PWI." Only one friend took my issues seriously (which prompted a conversation about Hermione being black or biracial would also explain why she was so invested in SPEW and Harry, even though he also grew up in the muggle world and was previously mistreated, didn't have the same reaction). Anyway, people bringing this up has been a weird experience. On the one hand, a lot of my previous issues with the series are finally being more wildly acknowledged, have a sense of vindictation for my feelings on it. But on the other hand, I get accused of jumping on JK hate train and I'm like I've been having these issues AS I was reading the series for the first time.
Now that you bring it up It's weird how well black Hermione fits despite it not being Rowling's intention at all, she made it pretty clear that Hermione was based somwhat on herself and she was consulted about the casting of the movie, so there's no mistaking how Rowling imagined the character to look like, yet changing her race doesn't really alter her story in major ways, of course she canonically faces discrimination for her parents not being wizards but like you said it does still fit, of course people inevitably take issue when you drastically change how a well known character looks, and we all know that Rowling only said she never stated Hermione was white in the books to look cool cause we all know she can't rapresent anyone other than herself, but I never really thought about how her being black still works, mainly because I just dismissed the cursed child as a stupid unnecessary sequel so I didn't really care about the cast in the play, might as well have been sock puppets.
Harry Potter has always been a yike and it annoys me that when I talk about how bad it is people assume I'm saying it cos just cos J/K Roflmao sucks as a person not all the ways that is imbedded right in her work
@@morgantrias3103 My mother is a HUGE Potter fan, so if you can example how Harry Potter is poorly written. That be great, cause I barely remember the books.
@@orangeslash1667 It's not sooo much that it's poorly written, I'd say a badly written book you enjoy isn't so badly written anyway (though I imagine it is not skilled, but that's not my area of expertise. It seems padded and lacking in themes maybe? Things don't tend to arc back on the earlier elements of the story in a very satisfying way. Harry destroying a journal in book 2 turning out to be important in book 6 is the only time I can think where the books really feel woven together properly her worldbuilding is very generic mythology tropes and magical school stuff is a prexisting genre) mostly the way she writes about women always seemed mean/smug/dismissive/misogynistic in a way I can't think of concretely without rereading. But Hermione was supposed to be J/K's self insert, which means if you ignore her for a second, there isn't a single female character you couldn't remove from the story without mucking up the plot, apart from Harry's mum who isn't a character but a plot device because she's dead throughout the books. The plot is moved forward by men and only men. She's extremely gross and careless in her depiction of racial minorities and LGBT people too, but that's more obvious (eg Cho Chang is a Korean family name and a Chinese family name jammed together in a way that makes no sense, 2 seconds of research could have fixed that)
I think I disagree with her opinion that the “hard work makes dreams happen” theme is basic… you have to remember that this film was one of Disney’s first animated films post renaissance and the whole “wishing on a star” theme was still very widely associated with this specific kind of film. By todays standards it may not hold up well but I think for the time it was pretty revolutionary or at least I remember it being so
Yes, the idea that Tiana had the agency to make her own dreams come true was big. Look at Tnagled, Rapunzel was so sheltered she had a panic attack when she left with the guy. Frozen was the next movie to say that the princesses can drive the story.
@@joelle4226 Lol, no, think again. Ariel. Most people disagree with her tactics of leaving her family to do what she wanted to do, but that's what set her apart. She did, in fact, go to any means to reach her goal. She lead her story.
@@griffenspellblade3563 Frozen is poorly written, it's a terrible adaptation of the SnowQueen. Elsa was originally going to be a villain, but (let it go) convinced the writers to rewrite everything, and make Elsa more of an anti-hero.
@@BabsChannel Ariel still has an I Wish song in her treasure trove and relies on dubious, costly magic to get on land. I'm not denying she had drive. However, her agency for exploration falls apart with Eric, to being a different kind of princess. The sequels bog that down further with Ariel doing the same to her daughter that Triton did to her.
I'm Siclian with black hair like snowite but darker skin sorta of the shade of Jasmines, one year my hair was short so I decided for Halloween I would go as Snowwhite! I already had the hair! When I went to a friends Halloween party all my friends said I was too dark to be snow-white and and only pretty light skinned girls could dress up as her. It was the worst feeling in the world. When I dressed up as Jasmine another year they said I wasn't Middle Eastern, I was so confused and frustrated and since there is no Sicilian Disney princesses I just stopped dressing up like them! Representation is very important! How come we have 3 french disney princesses but only one black one? It's not fair Disney needs to pick up there game!
When you hit on the fact that Disney doesn't feel the need to include a WASP character in non-black POC movies is telling. Hell, not even Black Panther could get away with having an entirely black cast.
To me, Charlotte didn't really bother me (she made sense in a way, but it really was Disney needing to check the box of having a white savior character in black movies made by white/white-identified folks) compared to Ross in Black Panther, from the way he treated T'Challa with such disrespect in the beginning to him needing a heroic moment in the film. It felt forced, especially considering he's in the U.S. government -- you know he's there to spy on Wakanda like so many missionaries to Africa throughout history. 😂 And, of topic a bit, but I can't STAND the credits scene when Wakanda comes out of the shadows and says they're going to share their tech. What?? Wakanda would be ATTACKED and destroyed and strip-mined in real life! If they shared their tech, it would be turned on them. That is a ridiculous, naïve, even harmful ending. I love the movie so much but hate that scene. So, I like to stop at the better ending, in which he goes into the city and talks about helping it out quietly. Move in secret, black people.
They seemed to have a change of heart by the time Shang-Chi came around - literally centered the pointless white character doing a bit in a panning shot of Asian bodies. Now every movie gets a WASP crammed up its ass, apparently.
"Why are our movies So about WORK?" Me who is white but leftist: "I think capitalism..." I agree there needs to be more than just WORK and that there needs to be actual representation created by black voices, or at the very LEAST with many black voices giving opinions, experience, and input into the work. At the very LEAST. I write and draw and I have minority/non-white characters all across the board of my fictional worlds and dimensions, and I ask my friends and fellow students what they think (I live in a diverse area, so I am lucky to have many different people be able to talk to me and tell me their thoughts, feedback, educate me etc.). You can't write what you don't know. Representation matters, and though it is not at all comparable in any way, I can empathize as a Queer and neurodivergent woman. Hopefully, the full spectrum of humanity will actually be represented and heard in humanity's art and expression that's more "mainstream" or big.
I have a degree in Art and literature Critism and yet sometimes I feel uncomfortable sharing my criticism online because I don't want people to see my criticism as means for harassment.
@@BabsChannel cause people think in very binary terms, especially people that're on the internet all the time. They get a positive feedback loop going, and after a while, every other position becomes taboo, even violent.
I love that you touched on my main issue with Princess and the Frog: the presence of white people. I think it was entirely unnecessary to have white people in the movie. Sure there can be some white folks in the background or whatever, but why does there have to be white people in the main cast? There are plenty of stories disney has told with zero black people, and there are plenty of situations (e.g. segregated 1920s Louisiana) where having an all black cast would make WAY more sense. It doesn't even have to "make sense", cause there doesn't need to be a reason for having an all black cast. Smh
I remember a white youtuber saying that he didn't like their inclusion because it felt patronizing, as if Disney thought people wouldn't want a black character the star of the show without "nice white people" in said show.
I had to pause your video to write this comment! In the over 10 years of me watching this movie, I've never realized that Tiana and Facilier have like no connection to each other! Facilier is literally Naveen's villian, like Tiana would have no beef with him in particular otherwise! I always felt like the movie was flat (even tho I think Naveen and Tiana's relationship is really cute) and you just explained one of its major issues. How did disney write a movie where the antagonist is not actively trying to bring down the protagonist (like isn't good vs. evil their main thing)??? Wow my mind is blown!!!
Anastasia does the same thing, to much fridge hilarity. I think everybody likes the secret-princess-rags-to-riches aspect over the shoehorned magical Disney villain (in the form of Russia's Greatest Love Machine). Rasputin just shows up at the end like "WHY WON'T YOU DIE?" and she's like "I'm sorry, who are you?"
@@BabsChannel nothing inherently, but no other Disney princess has this type dynamic. It doesn't sit right with me that they switched it up for their 1st Black princess
I completely feel you as a native person all we really have is Pocahontas and some old Disney stuff that I'd really rather not remember... And of course the white co-lead with that is none other than Mel bloody Gibson. I pray one day they get enough guts to go into the full Aztec history or trying to clean that stuff up but until then I have that Netflix series that I love xD (mind you it isn't perfect but it wasn't pretty good show for oh what I was expecting) Keep up the wonderful work I enjoy your insights
@@catsthemovie4692 they probably mean Maya and the Three, an animated Netflix show about Aztec characters and gods, it's a beautiful show when it comes down to animation.
They really had to romanticize a horrific part of that history. She could've been played without the colonizer as her love interest like Merida or Moana
(note: I'm white, with possible ancestry, and don't want anyone to assume that my comment is from the POV of someone Native. I've learned a lot the past few years, but obviously should be taken with a grain of salt) Cw for vague mentions of colonial violence and racism/fetishism (two sides of the same coin) Pocahontas has a beautiful soundtrack (though it feels inauthentic even there because it doesn't include themes or songs in actual Native styles. Like call and response drumming and singing. It can be so moving, haunting, joyful, etc. and it could've been very powerful.) but almost everything else about it is so harmful, and the amount of fetishism and appropriation (Halloween costumes for example) that it sparked is horrible. The story is a true one, but they only took the names from what happened. They changed the ages, the violence, the fact that she was kidnapped and definitely did not love her captors, every important detail. In reality there actually was a lot of intermarriage, some of which was genuine and positive. (Moreso in areas the French settled than with the English.) If they were interested in depicting a positive romance between a settler and a Native person, they could have made the story about that. Or about the settlers who landed, sick and dying of scurvy, who were saved by Natives. A story of learning to communicate and appreciate Native knowledge. But no matter what, it's something that should've been written and directed by actual Native people, with no white actors voicing Indigenous characters. Imagine an animated movie created by Indigenous people with all of the resources of Disney at their hands.
OH! I just remembered about a show I watched that was actually set in Mesoamerica, written by a couple with actual heritage and voiced by Latinx people! Actually the people behind it were also the writers of El Tigre and The Book of Life. The wife created and wrote the female and child characters while the husband did the men and more monstrous looking forms of the gods, so it also does a good job of avoiding sexism. It's called Maya and the Three. Bear in mind, it's more of a fantasy legend story that heavily centers gods and spirituality based on real aspects of the cultures that lived there, rather than a more realistic down to earth historical representation. It also has a lot of things representing the current culture there, with Spanish language and telenovela references sprinkled in there, and has an island of Black people (which, from what I've seen, is heavily debated whether or not there were Black people in the Americas before colonization. But the creator wanted to include them because they are such an important part of modern culture there.) Also, fair warning, there is a lot of character deaths. It's often seen more as a transition than an end and is bittersweet rather than negative. And the character designs really lean into the exaggerated proportions seen in relics, rather than being realistic.
Disney: We are going to give you more representation! Us: 0-0 Disney: There is a young black woman trying to make a restaurant by working double shifts. Us: Wow Disney: And she is a small green frog that spends most of her scene time with a firefly!
The message I got out of Soul was, well the issue wasn’t that he was pursuing his dream of being a jazz musician but that he was judging the value of his life off the outcome of that endeavor. When really the simple act of living is worthwhile in and of itself. Just because your life didn’t turn out like you planned it too doesn’t mean it was pointless. Which is a much better message than Princess and the Frog. Granted I can see the overlap but to me Soul gives a much more nuanced message about pursuing your dreams but not having tunnel vision. Also this doesn’t disqualify the lackluster race handling of Soul because yeah even my white butt picked up on the portrayal issues in this movie. But I still standby it’s slightly more nuanced than “bad work life balance” Edit: also can I point out the only reason he got the Jazz gig is because he was a teacher and one of his students went on to be a musician because of him? The movie is not anti him having a day job, or him getting the gig. It’s anti him seeing himself as a failure because he has to have a day job.
So I vividly remember the time period during which The Princess And The Frog was released. I remember my (at the time) best friend having her birthday party at the theater where we watched the movie. What was really interesting to me is that a couple different kids in our class (yes they were white) weren’t allowed to go to the party by their parents, who didn’t want their children to subjected to the imagery of Voodoo and that aspect. One of them wasn’t even religious, they just didn’t want their kid to see it ig. Even as a child I knew something was off, but now I understand even more that Disney completely fcked us over. By depicting Voodoo the way they did, as evil and corrupt, Disney alienated entire audiences that could have otherwise really enjoyed the movie and found something to keep them engaged and wanting to rewatch. It’s really INTERESTING how this is the Disney Princess movie to perform a bit underwhelming in theaters compared to pretty much all of the other Disney Princess movies. See, magic is used in Disney films, yet magic that comes from the Black diaspora is where a CRAP TON of people drew the line. Mmmmmm… also, the talking animals was really giving suspicious, but I also noticed a common detail missing. Most if not all of the princesses had animals, most of whom DIDNT talk, and they were just pets/protector sidekicks (ex: Jasmine has Raja, Rapunzel has Pascal, and Aurora has her forest animals) However, Tiana’s movie has multiple talking animals, including both protagonists during the course of the movie, and she never had a specific animal (PET) that could be a sidekick associated with her as a human. Ik it’s such a small grievance to have, but it’s still really weird to me and I just hate how they had that gorgeous woman be a fckn frog for her entire movie like I’m so heated. Also, Tiana had both parents but then her dad is the one who died and we didn’t have any other discernible Black men in the movie that we could root for. The only Black man that stayed in that movie was the villain. Why couldn’t they just make Naveen a Black (or canonically biracial) man who had more of a reason to be there in the first place. Maybe he’s got Black relatives in New Orleans that he’s meeting for the first time or something. To my knowledge, the general consensus among the Black community is that Naveen (though fine as hell) isn’t necessarily Black in the movie, he’s just kinda ethnically ambiguous ig? I could be wrong, so lmk. As an adult who has childhood memories associated with this movie, it’s very concerning how messy and extremely mishandled it was. There was no reason for it to be like this and that’s what bothers me the most. Now, I didn’t see Soul. It didn’t really look interesting to me to begin with, but I was also irritated because, as we saw with Tiana, the protagonist isn’t allowed to be a human for the majority of their movie. Also, what’s with Disney and making Black people be animals during their own films..? Like it’s ludicrous. But I saw a bunch of people loving soul and also a bunch of people saying it’s boring, and I just decided that I don’t want to go out of my way to watch it, but I’ll probably see it at some point throughout. HELLO?? What’s with Disney and making Black people into martyrs or subservient to other people. Tiana worked her life down and then was willing to give up Naveen (a FUCKING PRINCE) to her white best friend. Tiana then proceeds to open her restaurant, but we never see her actually being a princess at all. And with Soul, this man wants to give his life in order for a being who hasn’t even been born yet to get to live in the world. Also, the Magical Negro characters, I never wanna see them again unless it’s media actually made by Black people telling Black stories. All in all, I absolutely love you and your channel, I’m really happy for you gaining confidence in yourself as someone with this platform. I definitely agree with so much of what you brought up in this video and I feel a bit more validated in how much I disliked the overall execution of these movies. I still stan Tiana, but the actual movie is something I don’t really find myself rewatching very much.
Excellent videos, Princess 👏🏾 its crazy how even though I didn’t grow up with Disney (wasn’t on cable in the Bahamas growing up), the practices have permeated throughout the industry and extends far beyond Disney itself. That’s why creators like you, Harriyanna, Toonrifc Tariq and so many more. Big up ya self!
I've always felt that people should invest more time and money into other studios animated films. Disney shouldn't be the only entity that produces animated work. They don't need to do anything ground breaking because they'll get money regardless. I happen to enjoy both films but you are correct about them not being about the black experience. This is where another studio might pick up where Disney might falter.
I don't know. Disney I'm definitely done and over with, but since Turning Red came out Pixar has won me back as a fan. Don't get me wrong. Sony is currently my favorite animation studio strictly for the experimental visual style, but Pixar is really starting to experiment with different storytelling and settings. I think we may have another golden era on our hands.
One of the external perspectives (I'm a white guy) I've had on black media is that there's regular praise given for media that represent the breadth of different possible black experiences, rather than being distilled down so heavily. Tiana and Joe both seem like they were needed to condense all that breadth into one character, and so their personalities get largely reduced to their relationship with work, because any other writing could potentially alienate the target audiences. And the way they shoehorn in a 'ideal white contributor' character (22, Charlotte) so that white audiences have an anchor grounding place is something I've become more and more aware of as I try to more critically approach these films. Thanks for the fantastic deep dive!
For example in the Black movies, the white person saves the day in white movies there is rarely a black person savior. The rich white friend and no black friends for a person living in a black community in Princess and the frog was weird.
I haven't seen Soul. 22 doesn't seem ideal. No one's perfect. Charlotte is definitely not ideal. She's nicer than you might think from not knowing much about the movie and thinking about stereotypes, but Tiana's better.
Tiana's mom was Lottie's dressmaker, probably Lottie's mother's too. Big Daddy could have cut Tiana a check at any point for her restaurant, clearly was fond of her enough to do so, but by eating her beignets and probably tipping generously he got to help her along with Tiana keeping her pride. Featherheaded, sweet Lottie just threw money at Tiana. Different flavors of white savior, I suppose. From a shotgun house with barely a gumbo pot to call her own to her own place, The Place to Be, and she did it through her own sweat and effort. I adore this movie and character, but thank you for sharing your views. More ways to watch than just mine.
@@Disre.damn.spectful I think it speaks to how far Tiana has fallen from what her father would have desired for her at this point in her life. That's what she came to the conclusion of when the Shadow Man promised her the restaurant for the necklace. She probably did start out being in that community, but after her dad died she could have withdrawn a bit, become more focused on one of her father's wishes, which was to have a restaurant. She started working and, when that building went up for bidding, she worked even harder. Her friends even said as much in that diner scene. She didn't hang out anymore, didn't go out. I do get that it was a way for disney to not have to include the black community interactions, but that's also the lesson Tiana needed to learn. You can work hard, just don't lose sight of what matters. We didn't see what happens after the happily ever after, but we hardly ever do until the sequels in any of disney's movies.
Am I the only one that hated Lottie because she's allegedly Tiana's friend, has to know Tiana's working two jobs busting ass to have a restaurant, definitely knows Tiana's a talented and hard working chef.... and that it only cost her what she'd spend to have a party catered to have Tiana's dream come true..... And she couldn't have gotten that money to her ages ago??? Even as like an interest free loan or something? Lottie, I'm onto you >:/
I felt the same. Its actually one of the things I like about the movie in a weird way. I always sort of read it as basically showing how even the token nice white people were still ultimately useless at actually helping. Like you say Lottie clearly knows about Tiana's dream and likes her but it seemingly never occurs to her that she could easily help her. She's so privileged and oblivious, that she throws around what is a life changing amount of money for Tiana like nothing. I took it as less malice and more she's so privileged she doesn't even realize the problem, which isn't really any better. I'd add that this is then mirrored in the end where Lottie wants to help but is ultimately unable to break the curse, she's once again completely useless, and Tiana and Naveen instead break the curse themselves. I definitely never got all the people who thought Lottie was the more likable or charming character, in any case
... having Lottie as a white passing with a mom who is black and "Big Daddy" white could be real interesting... but there's literally so much there it could change Lottie to the main character.
27:20 Though very simple, I liked Tiana's motivation, because I thought she *was* continuing and expanding on the dreams of her father. When I first saw the movie, I saw the subtle references to Tiana supporting her community and facing discrimination and thought, "White folks might not pick up on any of this, but that's okay." I agree that Princess and the Frog is clearly the sanitized result of (mostly) white creators trying to avoid mistakes. However, I think that's a natural step on the path to better representation. This year I saw Turning Red, a Pixar film directed solely by an Asian woman, and some of my favorite moments were ones that felt authentic-like the daughter beaming when the dad approved her dumpling technique. I didn't interpret that as representing the experiences of all Asian children, just those of a director who happened to be Asian. I love that and feel like gradually having more diversity behind the camera has continually produced better results on screen. All that said, Soul felt like hollow representation for all the reasons you cited. I really wish they had cast someone like Tayla Parx to voice 22. Her acting in the Walking Dead video game was funny and incredibly moving.
The Princess and the Frog talk about the voodoo villain reminds me of similar talk in a tabletop RPG I like called Mage the Awakening. In that game, there's this Legacy, more or less a type of character you can have your mage become, called the Bokor. They're absolute bad guys. They destroy the anchors of ghosts to force them to move on, they graverob and kill both to get the bodies they use to animate the dead, and even a good bit of mind control towards the living is in their powerset. And in response to this, a number of actual voodoo communities spoke out and said "Yeah, that's pretty much a Bokor, please continue to depict them as utter asswipes". In other words, if you are going to depict a member of a culture as the bad guys, go ask that culture what the bad guys are called, what they do and how to not step on the culture at wide's toes.
The weird hand-waving of segregation and power structures in Princess & the Frog felt uncomfortable to me in its strain to avoid "tension." (On a different note, I have Cajuns on my mom's side of the family, and wooooooof.)
I still really like both _Princess and the Frog_ and _Soul_ (despite some problematic elements with their stories). I think _PatF_ is still an underrated movie that deserves better recognition. Hopefully, the upcoming Tiana series will handle her character and address some of the problematic elements of the movie better. I think _PatF_ can be more forgiven with its poor implications since the movie was made in the 2000s and on the tail end of the "Post-Disney Renaissance era," which was an era for Disney full of hit and miss movies. _Soul_ went into production in the late 2010s and was release 11 years after_ PatF_ and even repeated a similar premise as _PatF_ where a black protagonist doesn't get to remain human or in their original body throughout most of the movie. You'd think the people at Disney/Pixar would know better by now based on the little controversy _PaTF_ endured over its black representation. _Coco's_ main Mexican character gets to remain human for of his movie and _Turning Red_ gave its main Chinese-Canadian character a good balance between being human and a red panda. I'm also surprised you didn't bring up _Spies in Disguise_ despite not technically being a Disney movie. Blue Sky Studios' first main black character also got turned into a pigeon and had to get pair up with a quirky white character on a mission too. What an odd pattern for some major animation studios' first black protagonists so far... Miles Morales and Tip (from Dreamworks' _Home_ ) would be considered outliers, except that they're both mixed race characters. So.. When Disney makes a next animated movie about black characters, they better remain human and get a lot of screen time for their stories. I'm surprised that haven't made an African or a Caribbean princess movie yet. There's a lot of stories and folklore from African and Caribbean countries to make an adaptations of.
Tiana is the only Disney princess who begot a restaurant instead of a castle. For further injury the animators put a more charming innocent hearted female to juxtapose her (Charlotte). Also she and the prince get turned into animals (as most black leads are forced to do).
Wow you understand my sentiments entirely. As a lover of Disney movies I have watched every movie with black stories have some sort of a white hero. In white Disney movies it is extremely rare to have a black person save the day. The black princess gets to work, take care of the family, be the backbone of her community and nourish society. The nonblack princess gets to wish upon a 🌟.
@@candyxoxo19 what about literature. I ever read a very weird story (imagine Craig of the Creek but much darker and choked with bizzare imagery) where the main black heroes (a young man and his nephews) cursed into animals. Although unlike Princess and the frog they not spend entire story in animal form, it only happens in later half of of the story.
I wanted to watch Soul until I learned the majority of the movie was gonna be annoying Tina Fey baby ghost and body swap shenanigans. I thought it was going to be a straight forward character drama but Pixar seems to have no confidence in their own plots these days and they have to add in all sorts of stuff that just isn't ancillary to the main premise. Princess and the Frog was just so directionless to me at times. Just rushing from one song set piece to another, WAY too many pointless animal sidekicks (and yeah they're super annoying), no idea what it wanted to focus on. I would have happily followed a story focused on her getting her restaurant. Like just drop the connection to the Frog Prince story all together if you have to. Also she should have dumped that manchild as soon as they were human again lol.
Damn, I feel you so much on the Soul plot disappointment and how Naveen really didn't redeem himself to Tiana-- not enough for them to get MARRIED at least!
Love this video, loved learning more and seeing other perspectives. I've been aware of the problems with Princess and the Frog, but it remains one of my favorite Disney animated films and it was interesting to hear another take on it. Thank you, as well, for recommending the presentation! Hopping over to see that now.
Oh my gosh. There were so many things you said in this video that really hit home, but the one about seeing the work that BIPOC Harry potter fans had been doing getting co-opted/ over powered by people chasing clout, that really resonated
18:29 - "Palpable for a white audience"....As a member of that white audience, I have never understood that mindset. Why is it that filmmakers are under the impression that we're so simple minded that we can't handle watching a culture represented that doesn't look just like ours? It's the same way that there are so many stories with authors and setting outside of the United States, but in the film version the main character just has to be an American or else nobody will watch it. For some reason they picture an entire audience staring blankly, heads all cocked to the side, muttering "Duh, there are people interacting and none of them are exactly like me. I can't follow this." Then on the rare occasions they do come out with something that they claim to have some representation they end up ruining it by doing everything they think they need to do to play it safe. Then when their clumsy, half-hearted attempt predictably doesn't do well at the box office they take that as proof that they were right all along. And the cycle continues.
I loved this video. On a related but unrelated note: I miss Lindsay Ellis… I hated watching what was happening and I was terrified to speak up and say she didn’t deserve what was happening. I just decided to make sure I was diversifying the video essayists I’m subscribed to. I’m glad I did but I will always miss Lindsay.
I definitely have my problems with her, like her apologetics for Stephanie Meyer and Indigenous North American racism, but I feel like her tweets about Raya were fucking _nothing_ and not a good reason for her to be harassed off of platforms.
@Master Markus Are you talking about her video essay on Twilight? I am only asking because I think that video is more about her acknowledging that when it came to her hating Twilight, she was just jumping on a hate bandwagon and further discussing how culture tends to hate on things that are marketed and liked by teenage girls. Maybe there is something else she did to apologize for the problematic features of Twilight that I don't know about, but from what I remember, the point of the video was "sorry I hated Twilight because everyone online was hating on Twilight".
Yes, to everything you said. And Twitter became a place where the majority of people go for the most egregious type of replies/comments for clout and nothing else, always starting from bad faith alone in hopes to "destroy a target ". I'm not there anymore and find the discussions happening over there, bleeding into the real world invalid. I just feel sorry for the creative community that still engage and pay the price for trying to have any meaningful participation there. All the best to you and to Lindsay❤
54:20 The part about Jk Rowling, like I never was a fan of Harry potter, but when I saw all the evidence of all of the racism and antisemitism of the books, I was chocked, asking myself of how people didn't notice it before. Now with you speaking it made so much sense, all the Harry potter fans I talked with were white, of course no one was talking about it. Now it makes a lot of sense, the worst part is that even after she was outed as a terf, there're still people supporting her, even after all the evidence of her racist and transphobic behaviour. Being a minority on fandom just makes us feel ignored and hysterical as if we did something wrong. Also thank you for this amazing and well made video, kisses from Brazil!
People have noticed it and talked about it since the books first came out. It's just that a bunch of 9 year-old children don't really care in the moment nor really have the tools to critically examine the work when swept up in the whimsy of some of the worldbuilding. It's not until those kids grew up, and her public profile went to shit that it became a more mainstream topic, but it's always been there.
I would love for you to do a video on the racism and anti-Semitism in Harry Potter. I love the books and still do, but I won’t give any more of my money to that franchise. Still, I would love to hear your opinions on the racism and anti-semitism. Until recently, I turned a blind eye towards it, now that I know Rowling is transphobic, I’m ready to hear it.
@@emilyrowl9421 well I am not that knowledge on it either, I think you can find some people talking about it tho. The examples I can remember in the top of my head are: - one of the characters Cho Chang has a name that is basically two surnames of two different east asian countries, so an awful name. Also she is fits the "smart asian" stereotype. - the goblins (now it scaped my head if that's the real name of those creatures in English or not, sorry) are bankers and in the movies the star of David is in the floor of their bank, making a allusion to the antisemitic idea that jews are greed creatures with big noses and that are all rich. - also none of the other magic schools make any sense, for example why all South America has ONE magic school? We don't even speak the same languages!! There is more problems with her books, but I don't remember all of them right now
@@lordarthur2165 although Harry Potter is set in England there are almost no POC except 1 token Asian Cho Chang, 1 Token Black person and 2 Token Indian girls and all of them are super stereotypical. So that's probably a thing too.
Congratulations on the channel name change! I'm functionally face-blind, so I actually didn't realize the person I'd been enjoying as Melina Pendulum was also the Princess Weekes I'd been enjoying in PBS videos. This is a fabulous crossover and I love seeing you feeling more secure and stepping into your awesomeness! 💜
I’m happy somebody with a platform finally said it. Because I’ve never liked SOUL. I found the movie even triggering on certain aspects. It didn’t feel right. It felt like them saying the universe even says that Black people should settle. And anybody can walk in our shoes. Anybody has the RIGHT to walk in our shoes. I walked away feeling hopeless because I’m aware of the real world struggle of what a black person go through. The movie seems to trivialize how our hopes and dreams. As if hoping and dreaming isn’t in defiance of colonization for most Black people. The message of this movie would’ve been better if the character wasn’t black. Because the nuances of blackness can’t interact with the carefree ability of non-Black people without disrespecting the real life experiences of Black people, even in a cartoon kids movie.
I thought there was a line from Soul by Terry. They said "What, did you think they were born with them?" Referring to the personalities. So when watching I imagined the little souls going into already born babies instead of fetuses in utero. 🤷♀️
Disney was only interested in retelling the Frog Princess, not telling Tianna's story, which could have been interesting. If they ,"Built Blackness into the bones of the movie"(Soul). my question is why does your black character die in the beginning of the film then? I also utterly loathe the fact that Disney now has a copyright on the word 'Soul'...
A large portion of the film is about what happens after he dies, from his perspective. He's still the perspective character. I don't think that's a fair criticism of the film. Agree about Disney owning that copyright though. Yuck.
22:15 "OMG!" that was my reaction and the reaction of my brother when I told him that fact. Those creators were beyond sus for this to be their first choice. 😂 Also, thank you sister for the Haïtian 🇭🇹 representation, support, and exposure in this one! Our culture is so often misrepresented, I can't even...
I feel this on a spiritual level. I feel like there's this need felt by some people to defend representation even if it's not so great and made by (mostly) white people. While I can understand wanting to be represented, I don't trust the majority of white creators to get it right even when their intentions are good. I do also have that reaction Princess was describing by just not wanting to even engage sometimes. There have been times where I've criticised the writing of Asian characters in media and other Asian people in fandom would tear me down and rather defend their white fave creator than examine why I came to the conclusion I did. I think their feeling of being represented by that piece of work made it so they were less willing to see my POV. It was really frustrating because I even had an Asian youtuber with a much bigger audience basically say that my criticisms were "from a white lady being offended on behalf of POC" when bitch, I AM POC?? (And the specific group being misrepresented/shat on). Am I not allowed to criticise the white fave du jour and their work just because their art made some people felt seen? And I'm not going to name the specific fandom (no it's not Raya LMAO), but people there bend over backwards to justify scraps for representation and the actual work has continuously been shitty in terms of its racism in non-subtle ways. Though I'm sure there are others who have similar criticisms as I do, I feel like the critical analysis has been drowned out because the fandom assumes its more progressive than it actually is and gives a pass where a pass is not deserved. Fandom really will demonize marginalized perspectives that don't fit the preferred narrative when actually there are so many different perspectives out there! Sorry for the mini rant aaaa but this was a really good topic to cover, Princess! I still disagree and am uncomfortable with how Lindsay went about with her Raya takes. That's as much as I'll say without going into what specifically. However, it was sad to see all of the legit criticisms about the situation got swept underneath all the vitriole. Certain perspectives were weaponized to justify harassment towards Asians who disagreed and it became more about what other shit LE did rather than an examination about how we talk about Asian-inspired media made by white people.
Personally, this was the whole problem with Breadtube to me. They always have knives and quick the cutdown those that don't tow the line. They attack each other more than "right wing" making themselves look like evil they're talking about. It's discourse is so bad now because people are WAY too hardlined. This is in the internet you gotta come in flexible because nobody should just adhear to some monolithic point because they're "told so". Most of us are here on those platform because we wanted to be here. Trust, I despise white saviors and virtue signalers. I think they're losers, point blank. I been yelled at, attacked by the very people claiming they "NEED TO SAVE ME". Yet they ain't no God or Superman. They're just some loud outta touch prick thinking they know blackness and or other peoples struggle/history because they "studied it" in college. Yet one thing I did notice is this. "Meh" is the best repersentation, everything doesn't need to be bombastic. When something is *meh* we're getting somewhere because there's a lot of *meh* white leaning content. Now we just need more people from these groups making the meh content that I'll never watch. Since it doesn't have to appeal to me even if it was made for me. That's what the signalers and saviors don't get.
That's unfortunately a consequence of fandoms as a group, even much less controversial shit like ships get blown way the fuck out of proportion, and the people who engage most in their fandom expect that environment to be a purely positive echo chamber that lets them endulge in their love of whatever the fandom is based on. This way of thinking doesn't come out of nowhere of course, after all it's in the name FANdom, but of course that means that any nuance/critique is completely neutered or met with hostility, these topics are always uncomfortable to talk about, but when you add a beloved franchise in the mix it always gets worse, when having these discussions you have to deal with the fact that you're walking on a mine field, especially if you're from a marginalized group of the fandom, you can try to de escalate it but ultimately some people just don't wanna hear about how their favorite film reinforces negative stereotypes and stigmas against marginalized groups because their emotional attachment to that property is too much, and when you tell them it's problematic they feel attacked because it means that by extension they're also problematic because they support/like that thing.
Im glad you really liked Turning Red because im obsessed with that movie because its an amazing movie but also its a movie where i actually felt that the full embodiment of representation that I have been expected to have with past media (mulan, raya, crazy rich asians etc.). and i hope it shows pixar/disney that theyre going in a better direction by giving ppl like domee shi the opportunity and i hope they give aphton corbin the same kind of chance too, bc clearly theres a lot they need to make up for.
Tecpaocelotl is a name I had since 14 in 2000. The name came from a friend (RIP) who was a fan of Afrika Bambaataa and Zulu Nation. He wanted a brown/indigenous version of that. Rum, I usually get is from brown owned companies. The Princess and the Frog, was bad marketing. It felt like they had no idea or just wanted it to fail. I enjoyed it. I feel like they needed to market it differently. Soul, they just released it on Disney Plus without trying in theaters.
Thank you for this video, it's so pertinent! I must say I've been experiencing Disney fatigue for a while now, it's hard for me to dissociate the pieces of art from the corporation. I absolutely agree that Maïmouna Doucouré deserved better. I feel like the movie was judged based on that one unfortunate promo picture of the dance contest (thanks, netflix) , but not on the movie itself. As a European, I felt like that criticism, especially from people from the USA, was very double standard-y... Where were all those critics when I comes to other shows that are exploitative of children like dance moms, here comes honey boo boo, and all those pageants' shows? And I miss Lindsay:/ Esmé V.
Hmmm... as a creative, I liked soul for the discussion of passion and how it relates to work, and I kind of accepted the high concept plot as a tradeoff for the slice of life moments and the visuals - but looking back, it was just a slightly better version of inside out (which I didn't like) - it's fine, but structurally, there are many issues with it - and given my background (white european) those relating to black identity flew under my radar, probably because I was the target audience. It's really interesting criticism; Anyway, it's still super weird that Disney has done so many movies relating to various culture set where those cultures originated, but for black people both are set in majority white america - and the only movie set in africa is all about animals - the only other one about a minority, is turning red, telling a canadian-asian story, and it's the only one where the creator is from that particular background. (I don't include Lilo & stitch but maybe I should add it to the list)
I liked the thought exercises on both. Inside Out described the complexities of personality creation and puts visuals to really complex psychological/ neurological processes. Idk- maybe I have taught myself how to look for the essence of the stories and not fully engage with the nuanced realities of race and the implications of representation. I really need to sit with this and do better.
@@happygucci5094 my gripe with inside out is that much of the aventures going on in the middle part of inside, while fun, felt like mostly inconsequential episodes that bring little to the overall stakes of the story- or TBH, the theme. Like the plot would have been better off with just the begininng and the end, and most of the middle carved out.
@@maximeteppe7627 thanks for your response. I guess I tend to overlook the plot weaknesses and focus on what themes- particular mental health and the psychology of children has been introduced into popular discourse. These comments and video has made we aware of a needto evaluate a lot more critically; less passively.
I didn't realize going on that part of this video would be about performative activism in online media criticism spaces (and just overall) but man it's so nice to hear nuanced opinions about these things. I remember about a year ago I had to force myself off twitter because I realized how many of my friends shared these posts with guilt tripping text attached talking about how 'if you don't share you don't care.' Not only is there this drive to have 'the correct' opinion on everything, but there's this idea that, if you don't feel informed enough to talk about it, you still owe the internet some kind of explanation. Anyway, fantastic video! I was both drawn in by how succinct and passionate your points were, and by how pretty your earrings are.
I almost never comment on youtube but you are honestly so brutally honest it is refreshing. That is rare to see on youtube. It is one of the reasons why I like watching you and other poc youtubers. I just wanted to say I appreciate your channel. You SHOULD shake up the platform with your opinions because your voice matters too.
As a black american woman, I really hate how Tiana spent most of the movie as a frog, I loved her personality but she's wasted potential. They could have made her turn into a frog during the film's climax or just have Naveen just be the frog much like the original book the frog prince. 😡
i'm glad we're finally talking about princess and the frog past the obligatory cheering of representation, i never know how to (or if i even should) talk abt it on a deeper level w my yt friends one thing that sticks to me (in addition to the animal thing of course) is that tiana was the only princess explicitly told in-narrative that she Has to work hard to acheive her dreams, but because the movie made a point to not actually engage with themes of race beyond aesthetic, that scene isnt showing how black people are forced to perform excelency in order to get what yt ppl get for doing the bare minimum, it's just another scene romanticizing hard work, which a megacorporation like disney is always willing to push
Loved hearing your take on The Princess on the Frog! You catch a lot of nuances and messages that someone like me misses. And it makes me realize how much better the movie could have been. Also, totally agree about Tiana's design, she's GORGEOUS. The Rayagate thing was sooo dumb. Prior to it happen, the movie had already received a LOT of criticism from the SEA community. No one was praising it as the pinnacle of good representation, or a big step forward for SEA people. It was criticized for the lack of SEA people in the production and in the voice cast, it was criticized for not being available in SEA countries, it was criticized for being inaccurate and for jamming together several SEA cultures rather than picking one or two to focus on... Like, it wasn't hard to find those criticisms if you looked a bit. And like your take on TPatF, the Xiran video really showed how a more culturally-accurate movie could have been better and more interesting. Disney did the same thing with the Mulan remake, they wanted the PR points for ~representation~ and "cultural accuracy" but didn't actually put in the work to get that. With a lot of these movies, they take a very aesthetic approach to culture: they look at the food and the outfits and the architecture, but not the beliefs or attitudes or histories.
There is even a Polish person in the comments section in one of Xiran's Raya videos that said that imagine Disney treating Poland that way makes me outrageous. Which is understandable. I don't know if Disney has ever have an interest with Eastern European cultures, and Northern and Southern European cultures that don't get much recognition in the Western media that is. If they did, they would either get the Raya or Encanto treatment or somewhere in between. Well, there is even the possibility for Raya getting a live action remake which is gonna be jaw dropping.
The praise I've seen for Raya is Kirby Araullo's video on Raya, and Rice Squad's video on Raya from what I've seen. Philippe Lazaro did an analysis video on Raya analyzing the cultural aspects and the representation aspects. I'm not saying they are bad. I can understand the need for representation, I get that. But Raya felt like they are doing a diversity checklist and gain diversity points. The next time a western production tackles us, most of the SEA community at the back of our minds(I'm SEA myself) think and ask them are you gonna do this for diversity points?
A high school friend of mine was brought into Pixar ( we grew up not too far from Emeryville), when Soul was in development, as a stand in model/actor for the main character. He said it was a very wonderful experience and he felt the creative team captured everything distinctly, the process touched him deeply and it felt very personal to him, he admitted he wished he could have carried on with the role for the actual film, but knew it needed to go to someone that had more "clout" (as you would say). As for me, I've had friends that have worked for Pixar, and have visited once. The creative teams at Pixar I feel should not be compared exactly to Disney, even if they are "in bed" with them all the way at an administrative level.
I agree with you wholeheartedly!!! I'm in my early 50s so I've watched the racist Disney shit show all my life. I was disgusted by The Princess & the Frog for the same reason I hated SOUL. Both had excellent music but was completely disrespectful to the Black "lead." In Soul, it was great to see authentic Black men & women but they ruined it. I had to watch this beautifully drawn Black Man while hearing a problematic white chick's voice coming out of his mouth. They kill the Black man 7 minutes into the movie. Make him an animal. Relegate him to the background in his own story. Very troubling. And they somehow never seem to do this when the main characters are white. I wonder why? 🤔😠
Why focus on race? These movies aren't about being a certain race. I'm Latina and, even if I liked that Soul had a black character, because variety, it was the message of the movie that stayed with me. Yes, Joe is black, but before that he's a person in middle of a life crisis that isn't enjoying the little things that make life what it is, and is always waiting for his "real life" to start (something that could happen to a white, latino, asian, whatever person). And I very happily saw how he went on this trip to value his actual situation and also helped another soul to see the beauty in just being alive. I learned the same in a hard way. I suffered from anorexia nervosa first year of university, and my family felt dissapointed even if all my life I gave my best and won a scholarship for my university studies. I felt so bad that they were doing this to me in one of the most difficult times in my life, that I realised that I was living for their approval and happiness, but after that my life was empty of self love and lots of other things. First, when they made me feel guilty about being sick, I felt that my life had not meaning anymore. I was a total dissapointment, and I wasn't sure that in the future I could work hard enough to give them what they desserved (I mean my family). Then, little by little, I started learning to be kind to myself even if other people weren't, that my existence doesn't need to be validated by anyone but myself, and that I should enjoy my life in the moment, even if I wasn't, and I'm still not, completely mentally stable, instead of always waiting to be better and stuff to fell I have a value. This took me years, so when I finally watched Soul, it made me cry more than any other Disney movie had. It's a movie I'll never forget and yeah, Encanto was also good, but even if I'm Latina and also had family problems and suffered from generational trauma, Soul's message stays with me more than anything, and helps me lots when I feel like my life isn't valuable the way it is ❤🩹. So, I kinda get the frustration, but why focus only on the representation, when the message is what's more important?
This reminded me of a discussion I had with a friend before Moana was released (2016). My friend is Kanana Maoli and she had decided not to watch Moana and outright decided that it would not meet her expectations. 1) She believed the pan-polynesian approach to the film would be reductionist because it would erase the complex and diverse cultures that exist within polyneasia. 2) Disney would be comodifying a semblance of her cultural heritage that rightfully belongs to her people. My response to this was 1) even if we are to only look at Disney films with white protagansits, when has Disney ever made a film that accurately depicts a culture/historical setting/etc.?" My point to her was that she had every right to be offended if her culture was not being depicted the way she felt was appropriate but that she needed to at least have fair expectations. (BTW, I think all of the points made here were fair critiques of Princess and the Frog and Soul.) 2) Disney is a business and they are only doing this to make money. The unfortunate side of seeking representation in the mainstream media is that any culture represented will be commodified and altered to appeal to a general audience. As of right now, Moana, Coco, and Encanto have proven that a certain balance can be stuck in regard to these issue but I still think there is an issue that the world seems to hold Disney as the arbitor of recognition. That one has not yet been "seen" until a Disney movie has been made to address their community. Why is Disney given this power and what are the eventual ramifications of allowing them to have this power? I have no answers to these issues. I just hate that capitalism has made corperations the arbitors of culture
I agree, as a German I can tell you I’ve rarely seen anything accurately represented in other countries media about ours, especially not Hollywood. Nearly nothing is that exact in movies and Disney is known to take a lot of freedom in tales.
The big things with Disney, especially now, are 1) the fact that they are the measure of success in the US, 2) children watch their movies--from their cartoons to superheroes, they are usually raised on Disney here--so if you can make a popular Disney movie you can work to change the way those kids see the world, and 3) *they own practically the entire popular film industry/distribution in the US.* If you make a film with great representation through a smaller studio, like A24, it's seen as a great indie film. But if Disney hires you, it means that the arbiters of the status quo are willing to put money and power behind your message and/or your version of Americanness (agreed, f*ck Capitalism). Art influences the way people think. Not in the immediate "videogames will make kids violent" way, but in ideas of the world and how it works. So when all or most of an art form shows people one version of the world, that version manages to become real (Stamped From the Beginning is a great book to read about that topic, by the way). We live in this country too. We're Americans. We're human. Yet the companies that have the power to represent "the average American" or even any kind of culture to a US audience continue to see us as foreign/alien (in the case of non-white folks and immigrants), deviant (in the case of LGBTQ+ folks), or broken (in the case of disabled folks) rather than human and complex. This has been the case since before the inception of what would eventually become the USA. In many ways we just want to be seen as normal/average/good without having to perfectly fit into the kind of culture we've all been told is what makes someone an American (for example, WASPy, middle class and pro-Capitalism). Because *that* version of normal has never really existed. There have always been way more people that don't fit that mold than ones who do (TED Ed has a great video on UA-cam about that called something like "What is Normal?"). I would love some anti-trust/anti-monopoly laws to stop these very few companies from controlling all of our art in the US. I'd love those companies to be forced to give ownership to their workers, and the structures reworked to include more diverse voices. I wish most folks could more easily understand that when you see an unfamiliar culture or lifestyle onscreen that's not necessarily how all people of that background are. Since all of that is not currently the case, however, BIPOC people (as well as LGBTQIA folks, disabled folks, women in general, etc) are for now forced to work within that system in order to get anything substantial made. While answers to the questions you posited are complex, they do exist and have been explained by plenty of historians and art analysts. It's a really cool subject, honestly, though incredibly depressing at times.
as a Māori with roots in Polynesia and a shared cultural association with Maui, i was a bit tense when they announced Moana- for me Maui wasn't a good representation of the character at all, and no offence to The Rock but his haka game is a bit weak. But watching all my little cousins and all the other brown skinned Pacifica in the theatre lit up at seeing themselves and their whānau represented was priceless. The Te Reo Māori version is fire and I watch that version over the english one 100%. i dont think the glaring issues are excusable, in fact in a medium like animation where SO MUCH of production is storyboarding and editing/revising, they shouldnt have these issues. Im a huge animation fan, i love the medium so much, i have big respect for the artists behind these films, but it doesnt excuse the continued pattern of whitewashing things and calling it "disney", either
It says so much that I am fully, madly, deeply in love with jazz culture and how it ties into Black culture, but I had exactly 0 interest in watching Soul and heard nothing about it when it came out beyond the criticisms. I think this is one of those films that would have benefited from being a MUSICAL because otherwise jazz just becomes sterile set dressing. I was hoping more for the Gobelins short film "Jazz'in" but I got a disappointing blah of a movie that many Black critics had a lot to say about, and not positively.
That would have been so cool! I love the idea of it being a musical or just integrating music more in general, like having instrumentals in the background.
There's something definitely to be noted about just how much bad discourse originates from Twitter because of Twitter nature. Of course this stuff exists outside of it, but the very gimmick of Twitter means you can't site your sources. That you're not supposed to easily be able to read someone's take then find the context. It supports just passively agreeing with whatever pops up on your feed, then engaging with that contextless tweet with a passion. It's just hell I also super agree with how prevalent bad faith arguing is. It's crazy just how FAST arguments can turn into an "ends justify the means". Does X bit actually anything to the discussion? No, but it'll help who you're arguing with 'lose'. If you slightly twist someone's straight forward point every single tweet it's eventually a spiral you can pick apart. It's not always nefarious either, but it's bad faith. Also also there's definitely something to be said about assuming the worse. And I can't blame people who've been hurt for years and decades of ignorance, but the reality is someone can't include the nuance and caveats of EVERY single point of a broad topic. It's not possible, and I think the default reaction to assume it's because of ignorance or malus is something FAR more people struggle (or more conceringly DON'T view it as a struggle) with than people like to admit.
there was definitely some overblown nonsense around cuties upon release due to its poor marketing. however, having watched the movie, there are some scenes that were simply not okay. while i understand some of the camera panning and so on was intentional to make viewers uncomfortable, there were literally dozens of other ways to do that which didn't involve zooming in on the gyrating hips of children. show reactions of other people in the scene, or show the children's faces while they're dancing, or like... anything f*cking else. i worry about puritanical policing of art as much as the next thoughtful person, but this is not the film to go to bat over. like, i'm not going to say reactions to it were all completely reasonable, but i also hope no one goes seeking it out because as a survivor of csa, it made me feel extremely sick watching a lot of what they deemed acceptable to show a child doing. the right wing reactions to it are ridiculous, but it's not unfair to say that displaying several minutes of literal children in skimpy clothes thrusting their hips while the view we are given as an audience is almost entirely their bodies is not the way to get your message about the sexualization of children across.
That is my problem is how she's essentially saying criticism of Cuties was simply racist and that it's "not inappropriate" when everyone else agrees the way they did it WAS WRONG. I want to like this vid as it has lots of good points but she's a Cuties defender which is VERY SUSPICIOUS
It's creepy how so many animation studios feel black people and animals are interchangeable. I also notice that a lot of black movies aren't allowed to be inspired. Most works featuring black characters are for white audiences and it shows.
As a Latino who identified strongly with Aladdin because "close enough!", I felt you dressing up as Esmerelda lol.
As a southeast Asian, i felt the same way about Aladdin 😂
Man I was born in the 2000's so until Tian come out I liked and felt represented in Jasmine and Pocahontas because they were the only dark skin girls LOL
@@galeriadaluzz262 as a Nigerian girl born in 1999, before the princess and the frog, my closest representation was Kida from Atlantis because she looked like the closest thing to an African princess. I think Esmeralda is one of the prettiest Disney girls (like top 3), i loved the muses from hercules 😍😍, I also really gravitated towards Mulan as well because of her personality.
Shit, Disney still has never once had a Jewish main character, so pretty much all my Jewish friends are like, "Aladdin and Esmerelda? Close enough."
I'm white as white is, and I went as Esmeralda when I was 8 or 9.
(Not so) fun fact: Whenever I've seen Disney Princess-themed things here in Japan, they never use Tiana. They'll use classic characters, then skip right over her and use characters (even ones not even princesses) after her. Not surprising, but annoying.
Oof. Flashback to all Japanese made videos saying that Japanese people are not racist 👀
It's like I wanna say "wow," but I'm not shocked
@@OReily08080 same
Not surprised.
Damn
I live in Japan and one of the saddest things I notice is that Tiana is never on anything including all other princesses. It’s easy to say “it’s a Japan thing” but I think it’s a Disney problem. THEY feel that it won’t resonate in the market.
Also, am I the only who is tired of every black person thing being about jazz? Not that jazz is bad… but why is it the only black culture celebrated??
yea and it's erasing the fact that black culture is responsible for like, A L O T of the stuff that mainstream culture is built off of
within creative styles (fashion, music, poetry, visual art, etc)- black people are to thank for basically creating the primary colors of music, almost every new genre we enjoy today can still be traced back to black origins (such as rock n roll, country, jazz, techno, house)
Disney in Japan is dictated by Disneyland. The resort is very undiverse as they hire cast members to represent many characters, also the park isnt owned by Disney. So OLC is being cheap. Hong Disney on the other hand has great diversity and is owned by Disney. If OLC invested in representation, then the merch and popularity of Tiana would reflect that. Also I recently saw Tiana merch in green parks fashion shop so maybe some change is coming.
It reminds me of how they edited the Black Panther movie poster in China so that it wouldn’t show Chadwick Boseman’s face for some inexplicable reason. As though somehow Chinese people still wouldn’t clock that the movie is full of black people.
But Black Panther still had the 2nd biggest opening returns of any Marvel movie in China to that date, made a ton of money, and got rated higher on Chinese review sites than the 1st Captain America movie.
Also Disney notably didn’t shy away from featuring Chris Evan’s in promotional material in China, despite him also being a foreigner. So there are definitely double standards at play with Disney assuming that white people are palatable everywhere, but black people are not.
Oh it was worse in the 90s when black culture was all about basketball.
On a different, much pettier note: I am still salty that Disney bought the rights to The Frog Princess by E.D. Baker. That is one of my favorite books, and now it will NEVER be made into anything. And Disney did NOT have to do that. Princess and the Frog had NOTHING to do with the book except for the "girl also turns into frog" premise, which was not even done in the same way (in the movie it's because of "blah blah blah not a real princess curse loophole", and in the book it's because the princess had on an anti-curse bracelet from her witch aunt) and so would in no way be considered an infringement of copyright. Just another thing Disney did that I will be pettily salty for for the rest of my life
When did that happen? I love that book series so much 🥺.
Oh wow. Memory unlocked. I was obsessed w/that book at one point! Had no idea Disney did that!
Sadly Disney tries to buy out everything they can. Like the phrase, “Hakuna Matata” or even Día de los Muertos (Day of the Dead). Disney always tries to get away with trademarking anything to do with their brand just so they can have control over it. It’s honestly frustrating to see how they abuse their power as a monopoly.
@@2xvexes The good news is that while 2d animation is dead in the states, it's still alive in Europe and Japan.
@@magdalene47 Frozen is suppose to be based on the Snow Queen, but it has nothing with book other than a young girl finding the Snow Queen.
Princess and Frog at least kinda makes sense in it's own right. Frozen can't even do that right. No respect at all😞😞😞😞😞😞.
What annoys me the most about Pixar and Disney in relation to Black led films is that the main character (in both Princess and the Frog and Soul) turn into little creatures, a frog, and some blue thing. Whereas in films like Frozen, we can have both an all-White cast, and creature characters, i.e. Olaf. Where are our fully Black Disney and Pixar films??
Also why did they choose to inject all the voodoo in the black Disney film.
@@candyxoxo19 that was just Princess and the Frog. It took place on New Orleans, so of course they wanted to incorporate voodoo. It's just the general atmosphere and setting
They did the same thing to Inuit in Brother Bear. It's almost like they don't go have to draw non-white people for more than a few minutes at a time.
Because the worldwide audience doesn't want an all black cast, unfortunately. They care about the money far more than any sort of representation. I'm pretty sure Black Panther is one of the lowest grossing Marvel movies overseas - especially Asian markets.
I mean. Even in coco, most of the film is just skeletons with colors on them. Tho our culture IS more prominent on it than Princess and the Frog and Brother Bear
I thought Soul was less "Pro-Life" and more "Anti-Suicide". Not that it can't be both. But all my friends who struggled with or still struggle with suicide said the movie really made just the idea of sticking around and being alive finally click for them. That life isn't about purpose but life is about being.
I thought it was more “anti suicide” too. I definitely see and understand why some people see it as being more “pro life”.
Agreed! That it's more "anti suicide" (my opinion)
I don't agree. it's more about how you don't need to live an extraordinary life to be happy.
@daft banana how is that different from "life isn't about purpose , it's about being"
@@LKing-ue2jl yeah u right
when the princess and the frog came out, i was the target audience. a nine year old black girl from louisiana. and i LOVED it. of course as a child i didn’t notice or care about where the story fell short. i’m still very attached to the movie bc so many of my childhood memories center this movie (i had a princess and the frog themed birthday party). growing up and realizing the problematic nature of the movie was a little bit of a blow for sure.
(also i love louie & ray ray 😅)
EXACTLY. I’m from New Orleans and the only problem I had with it growing up was the hot sauce in the gumbo. Naveen was and still is my man crush.
I also love Louie and Ray Ray haha! Also, I'm not black, but my little sisters are and they were seven when it came out (I was nine). Noticing the issues now is disappointing, but at the same time we have a fondness for the movie and seeing a princess that was so strong and beautiful and made my sisters feel so happy will always make me like this movie a lot.
Yea. As she says in the video, we're still allowed to like these movies. And I definitely do. The most important thing to me with these is that knowing they are intended for children, is seeing yourself on screen and getting joy from them as a kid. And these movies definitely do that.
I feel the same. Except about Louie, I find him a little grating. Also I was an adult white lady when it came out. I thought it was just beautiful, I was very excited to see a new hand drawn Disney movie, I was extremely happy to see a Black princess... I didn't even realize that the story was lacking until the second or third time I watched it. I still like it, but I wish they had done more with Tiana. It would have been cool if they'd done like Princess said in the video, and made her active in civil rights in her community. I know they like to act like they can't do that, but I think you could absolutely make an animated movie about Rosa Parks, and you can't ignore her role as a civil rights activist to do that. Why not Tiana?
I saw it on opening day in Baton Rouge, and Ray Ray got cheers. He's the best.
yep. i have accepted that the way i view cartoons is gonna be different than these other cartoon youtubers, as im a black woman studying african american studies in college in a male (and white) dominated space. it doesn't mean anyone is better or worse than each other, it's just what the audience wants to see. if people wanna hear about racism (and other issues) in cartoons and live action kid shows, they come to me. if they wanna hear someone just talk about the media for its art and story, they go to someone else. i've had to accept that's why my audience isn't as big as everyone else because of my niche.
I definitely enjoyed watching your videos
Hey! I got into you after watching your commentary on Monster High, Bratz, and Ever After High! Just like you, I'm a Black doll collector and cartoon lover, and our space and support by the elites are very limited. I notice the ones getting most of the attention speak to a very specific audience.
Glad to see you here; I love your stuff!
@@GenerationNextNextNext Another problem with Disney is that (Song of the South) may have permanently scared them from representing black culture, beyond anything surfacelevel. Theres a reason why Disney never gave that film DVD release.
Song of the South was a White man's take on Black culture, and it was trash.
"When I think about how Disney has failed black folks and brown folks in general, it's not just making subpar movies, it's not just in the stereotypes, but in creating an environment in which young people are taught to put all of their cultural representational stakes into a monopoly that wanted to trademark "hakuna matata" and Dia de Los Muertos."
Nailed it!
I know this is so random and has nothing to do with what you said but just letting everyone who sees this comment that hakuna matata means there are no problems not no worries for the rest of your day
I love Tiana as a character, and I enjoy Charlotte as a character, but on the whole it is admittedly a very problematic dynamic. I feel like Encanto and Turning Red were such massive steps in a better direction. Mirabel’s dynamics are with her own family, and Mei’s story is equally about both her friends and her family. And both those movies weren’t afraid to have their main character’s journeys tie into their cultures.
As always it's all baby steps.
@@ginogatash4030 Princess and the Frog is not suppose to be about representation, it's yet another fairytale adaptation with some black characters thrown it.
@@ginogatash4030baby steps for black people and large leaps for everyone else. We still don't have a regular standard animated black prince. I don't racially ambigious most like indian naveen, I mean a unambigously dark skinned prince.
No it isn’t🙄 stop being idiotic with that
@@orangeslash1667wrong
i really wished disney gave tiana a black friend instead of charlotte. i like charlotte's character, but i can not stand how so many disney stans took the attention away from the tiana in her own movie to the white woman because the movie kinda did the same. it's like disney continues to try to give up representation and fails at the same time cause they just don't get it. it was like "sure! you can have a black princess, but she's broke the whole movie and she has a rich white best friend go figure!" i loved this movie as a kid but now as an adult i get so annoyed with it.
i love tiana, i love the positive influence she had on my life, but omg i wish she got a better movie. the movies wasnt even really about her, it was about new orleans.
Or a sister. It felt weird for Tiana not to be drowning in aunts, cousins, nanas and sisters.
The friends at the restaurant are Tiana Friends and they are Black she didn't hang out with them cause she was working all the time.
@@moustik31 Her dad die in war before Him and Tiana mom could have more kids. Alot Black people are only child too.
I agree. The fandom literally sidelined Tiana for Charlotte..
@@ayeilak5 I dont think, the creators of the movie wrote Tiana thinking to depict the only child Black experience. It feels more, like she was part of a Black community, they were too lazy/not interested to portray.
I don't have anything meaningful to add the discussion, but on a lighter note, I strongly agree that Tiana is one of the most beautiful characters in animation and def deserved better. When the movie came out, I was a teen and she was one of my first female crushes (along with Nami from One Piece). Still took me some time to admit to myself that I was bi. 😅
She has my favorite Disney Princess dress, and on the very off chance that I should ever get married, that will be my wedding dress. In white, though.
As a fellow bi, Hallooo.
the women in one piece don't even look human
@@theimplications635 unfortunately but atleast they're badass
@@imani7979 true
A good animated fairy tale with all black characters where the protagonist and villain have a close relationship is Kirikou and the Sorceress by Michel Ocelot. Wich is based in a story of an actual folk hero from West Africa. Highly recomend it, and hope more people in the animation comunity give it atention.
There's a name I haven't heard in a while. Terrified the life out of me as a child, but a gorgeus piece of animation gone unnoticed
@@taikaniinimaki7234 Except in Brazil, where has a lot, and i mean A LOT of fans (considering our own media is very whitewashed despite the country having one of the biggest black populations outside of Africa, Kirikou meant a lot for afro-brazilian audiences, specially children who got to see an animated hero who looked like them).
@@taikaniinimaki7234 Karaba's scream near the end is still terrifying
Where can I find it?
That's one of my favourite movies! I remember seeing it by coincidence while channel flipping as a little kid. I was glued to the television. (Literally. There was construction going on outside and I had to sit very close to hear the dialogue)
I feel like Encanto and Turning Red (the latter of which IS an "own-voice story") might be good signs for Disney when it comes to having stories with non-white main characters and cultural narratives. So fingers crossed that they keep up with that and can produce SOME black narrative that is... good.
I feel like the closest thing to a cool Black Disney princess we had was Suri from Black Panther. 🤣 Wish her actor hadn't turned into an anti-vaxxer. 😥
But I agree about Encanto and Turning Red. I thought they were both absolutely amazing! I can't speak to the Asian diaspora of the latter, but for me as a Latine Encanto hit every note of the kinds of connections I have in my own family (I have a parallel to literally every Madrigal), even though I'm not Colombian. I've heard some Colombian folks both loving and disliking the movie, but the latter more with the specifics than with the general characterization, message, etc.
Fingers crossed the success of those movies will lead to a growth, inside or outside of Disney, of better/more representation of BIPOC creators, rather than these being the single shining stars for each type of group.
White America is far more uncomfortable about blackness specifically than it is about other minorities because of the mixture of their dehumanization of us and their guilt about it (for those that at least have the decency to feel any guilt about it to begin with).
Blackness in America has similarities but isn't really like Asianness or Latinness. Culturually and historically a very different history of oppression.
IMO, I think our closest corrolary is with Native Americans in terms of systemic brutality and dehumanization.
@@Arosukir6 why can't the actor make her own choices?
and they were films with actual people from those cultures in charge and involved- made a big difference.
@@Mariathinking because it hurts other people.
My high school art teacher worked on lion king and then laid off due to Disney transition to 3D. I remember him telling us that he had a friend at Disney who said they were going to use 2D on a upcoming African American princess( what came to know as princess and the frog) and if the audience didn’t like the art style, they were going back to 3D for another snow princess( what came to known as Frozen) . Basically, Disney used the princess and frog project as a test to see if people were still into 2D …
In other words it was a throw away film.
Wow. I actually thought it was an honest mistake that they just wanted to make it "match" the previous princess films since at the time Pixar was doing all of the 3D animation with usually original stories but all the previous princess films were 2D and I came here to say basically that it's bullshit they never bothered to make another Black 3D princess after they found out that 3D animation sold better also in princess films which......well of course the biggest animation studio in the world would test those things not just make silly mistakes.....
Genuinely watching the clips that Princess uses actually makes me miss the 2D animation style that I haven't watched in awhile, criticisms of the writing aside the animation is actually really good and I do wish it still had more of a place, like I wish we could have 2D animation of this quality on TV shows or something but it's still expensive so I doubt it, and it still can't hold up to what big budget #D animation can do. Perfect time to make a 3D animated Black princess with proper writing when are we going to see that?
@@GraysTakeuh, no… it was a gauge to see if audiences were still interested in the classic 2D animation or whether they should completely switch to CGI?
@@EmberAlexander-x5hif you’re interested in writing or animating you can aspire to pitch your own show/film that meets all the specifications you want it to, I don’t know why you’re expecting Disney to do that for you tho
As a black girl from Louisiana, The Princess and the Frog was EXTREMELY disappointing to me. I remember leaving the theater at 18 being upset that I didn’t love it. I watched Tangled later and was mad I liked it more. It felt like it was designed for me but it just didn’t have any substance. And I might’ve forgiven that if the music was hitting but even that was just so lack luster. How do you have a story about a black woman in NEW ORLEANS and the music is forgettable? It’s a cardinal sin.
Felt the same way. I was so frustrated she was a frog the whole time, amongst other issues. And the music was amongst the most forgettable Disney has put out. So so so disappointing.
As a Black man with a Lot of fam from the Shreveport area, I had high hopes for Disney finally making a "Black" princess AND it was taking place in New Orleans!! But when I finally saw it some years after (in my late teens) it came out I was disappointed too. Other than Tiana's dad, the way they portrayed Black American men was very stereotypical in a bad way (rude, lazy, sneaky, helpless, etc.). And of course the "prince" couldn't be a Black man but some tanned dude from Spain smh...they just couldn't put a positive light on both our men And women. Then it really annoyed me that Tianna had to be a frog most of the movie, it shows how uncomfortable many White people are with our complexion. I thought the music was decent, but I feel like they lacked effort and didn't have that banger(s) that most Disney renaissance movies have. But yeah, they could've done A LOT better...
Tangled was underwhelming for me, too, so I just though Disney was slipping. Frozen was overrated, too. Had too many plot holes for me. The only movie I loved in recent years from Disney was Big Hero 6, Zootopia, Encanto, Turning Red, and Moana.
i felt the exact same way. For a lot of Disney movies, Like Frozen, Cinderella, etc (for example) the story doesn't do much for me but the music hits. I really figured Princess and the Frog would at LEAST have good music and it literally just ... didn't have anything lol.
Almost there and friends on other side were forgettable? Really?
Our first Black American princess and she gets stuck in the real world of America and gets turned into a frog for a majority of the movie 😢.
It's suppose to be a fairytale and yet we get no escapism, no fantastical fantasy and no representation.
and she only exists because they took a GERMAN fairytale and changed it to 20s new orleans so they could change her race easily. I love the movie but the fact that Tiana is in reality a medieval German princess is.....
Plus to add insult to injury they showed Eudora reading the German story to Tiana and Lottie so they awknowleged that yeah , the real Tiana is a different race, different nationality and is from waaaay in the past.
@@finland4ever55 - I don't care if the fairytale is German but how they went about it or choosing THAT story knowing she won't even be a human for most of the movie, ect.. I didn't even bother seeing it yet blacks still saw it and took THEIR children to see it, expected what? It's desperate. Then who made money off the dolls and merch sold? Not blacks. Anyway, Django was a great movies that basically did the same thing but very well and I hate any movie with 'slavery' as a topic, when I can read a book and know how to research and when I do there was way more to us then that same story. For example, not all of us where slaves! Lastly, whites have stolen stories (and history and even white washed images and created revisionist history to place themselves in it along with false statues) from us and others anyways! So, you don't know what's truly 'theirs', unless you actually do. Be carful of what you call 'white' just assuming when that is the agenda...for you to accept and automatically assume what was 'black' as being 'white' now, because they've pushed that lighter/whiter image in your face, since childhood, for all your life and no one questions it or cares about history to research outside of school, or too lazy and want it microwaved and don't read book but THEY do so that they can get ahead of it and everything you call 'history' to lie and rewrite it and put a white face on it while telling you your history is just trauma, being a slave, civil rights, getting beat, killed and owned, struggle and misery, white saviors and always been under the heel of some white mans boot waiting for someone white man to save us and turning the other cheek when being slapped. That all too many blacks talk about when it comes our 'history' anyways so why would they give you anything different. I blame black people for these crappy images, scripts and roles of blacks in movies and never use the power of boycotting just complaining yet expecting something different as it drags a*s to just give you a crumb and still make money off you.
@@finland4ever55 I'm pretty sure at least several other European countries had their versions. (Not talking about how the old versions are, as always, much more brutal than the modern kids' versions.)
But yeah, it doesn't help.
I’m glad someone else caught it. I love Tiana, but smth about the way Tiana’s story is written - especially the older I get - feels INCREDIBLY like the usual conservative “bootstraps” narrative. I feel like that would be particularly damaging to the young Black girls it’s meant for
@@finland4ever55 I don't give a shit if it's German in origin b/c this is Disney's version of the fairytale, that's like me having a problem with Disney's live action Little Mermaid; what I care about is that this takes place in the real world of New Orleans in an obvious set time that takes out most of the fantastical elements of a fairytale story where the locations may be familiar, but is it's own thing.
Considering that Disney completely destroyed Mulan with its live-action remake, I shudder if they even dare do a live-action remake of Princess and the Frog.
That would literally be my last straw. I’m actually horrified by the thought. They’d make naveen white and have them walking down the street together in a white town and act like that wouldn’t be risking her life
Many chinese actors worked on the script too.
as long as they keep it a musical everything else wouldn't matter to me, and they cast a dark skinned actress.
No! Don't speak it into existence!!!
@@VidWatcher01 its already happening lol
So, i'm South East Asian, specifically Malaysian, and personally, i'd rather Disney and Hollywood leave our culture alone. If media corporations want to "give us representation", please give money and resources to our local South East Asian creators to tell their own stories in their own way instead. Hollywood does not hold the monopoly on the world's cultures, nor are any entities like Disney, the place for any and all representation.
It would be fantastic. The big problem is that it probably doesn't align with capitalist interests, like Disney doesn't _want_ to give smaller companies resources because it cuts into their own profit.
Not saying that this is acceptable, just that corporations can't be relied upon to do things that are especially charitable.
@@mastermarkus5307 exactly :)
Well, they did make Moana and that was quite fun and good. At least I liked it and so did many of my Filipino friends. But I do get what you're saying XD
@@mastermarkus5307 Disney might have gotten too big since 2009.
Exactly! There are a lot of up and coming animation companies all over the globe making art for their own people. I'm thinking of something like Cartoon Saloon in Ireland, and how they receive government grants to make films about Irish culture. I hope in the future, we have tons of animation and media coming out of every country! It can be a really great window into another place, while also showcasing the art and history of that place.
As someone from New Orleans, the princess and the frog didn’t feel like New Orleans…
1) I really wanted human Tiana in New Orleans as a human- not in a random bayou as a FROG?
2) Nola is all about community- I doubt the community aspect wouldn’t be different in the 30s
3) Nola was and still kinda is very segregated- there are different districts with uniquely different feels, dialects, and prejudice (++No one says New OR-Leans, only the old whites of the garden district; no one says Nawlins)
4) Voodoo is a term used to generalize and villainize the non Christian/catholic religions from the enslaved communities and native cultures-
5) Disney fucks up a lot of poc characters Pocahontas(high key disgusting) etc.
It’s just sad
I'm from New Orleans too, and I live near the French Quarter. Perhaps me and you don't share the same reality, but New Orleans is not segregated, rather the divide today is between poor people and the rich.
The bayou is a place of magic in our Louisiana Creole lore. This is where you find monsters like the rougarou, lutins (magical animals), guerisseurs (medicinemen), and our gris-gris magic. You didn't commonly find these magical traits in our city during that period of time, as New Orleans was becoming progressively Americanized.
I agree with #5...it's nothing new at all even if those films are considered classics. but #4? They aren't generalizing and villainizing those religions at anything.
@Strawberry’s Shortest cake Not really, even if we view it negatively they aren't generalizing and villainizing the entire religion.
@@Jdudec367 voodoo is very villainized in media and has been for a long time. Especially in the horror sub genre. Post poc and native practices have been. Its been such a prominent thing for such a long time time now, and I’m into spirituality and even before that I knew this. I do not practice it as i am white and do not even have the ancestry for it but it’s a black rooted practice. No hate but try looking into the history of its misrepresentation and hate online because it’s so much more than just using voodoo dolls to hurt others as the media usually shows it. I agree with op that most anything else other than Christianity rooted religions are stigmatized and villainized, and most are minority rooted.
@@plants_are_pretty_cool5851 Hell, the dolls don't even come from voodoo. They're a European magical practice from before white folks forgot that we used to curse each other all the time.
I have difficulty with Disney for the exact reasons you laid out. Not gonna lie, I’m hella jealous. They could have set the first Black princess movie in the Caribbean or even left it in the 1920s but set it during the Harlem Renaissance! But my dad used to always say, they will never let us (black people) forget our standing in this society/ world. Which is why Tiana’s mother had to work for rich white folks and Tiana herself had to struggle and bust her ass to get where she wanted to go. They are essentially telling us Black folks “this is who you are and this is who you will always be”.
Love your work
Thank you for sharing what your dad told you, it’s helped lay out clearly for me a perspective I hadn’t even thought of before. I’m white and I’d never really thought too much about how the ways black people are presented could look positive to me, but actually aren’t because of what the representation is reinforcing but it makes a lot of sense. Now I can look at things again and be able to understand why it can be harmful instead of just seeing it surface level because of my race and not thinking too much about it, so thank you and thank you to your dad as well.
exactly. you worded this so well! and your dads logic is spot on. they won’t let us forget it. that’s why i feel a way about slave movies. i just can’t sit through it regardless if it’s in honor of our ancestors or not i just can’t. we deserve more complex yet regular narratives. we’re human beings too
''They could have set the first Black princess movie in the Caribbean '' for what? And that would no go well...at all. It isn't Caribbean but American production and American blacks are American, and they wanted one based in America. I'm not against your idea per say but you act as if what ruined it was it taking place in America with Americans or had an American first? There are hundreds of years of black American history that STILL hasn't been told, ONLY the same ol and tired ones as if that's all there is! The still have yet to tell our stories correctly or completely, as Americans. That's the point being made, why WE were upset not the fact that their American. Also, 'Voodoo' was not the only spiritual practice nor the most popular in the south, yet that takes up more space then it needs to or did, when speaking on black American/Creole spirituality. The movie eves Eves Bayou did the best job detailing this, so far. MOST are not even Haitian, they were not the majority. Most can't understand that being AN American CREOLE IS not the same NOR equates AS BEING HATIAN OR A HATIAN IMMIGRANT. Maria Laveau wasn't even Haitian nor did she JUST practice Voodoo, which of course isn't evil.
@@mahneekaha.nightmare5220 I hear what you’re saying. I honestly wasn’t thinking about the voodoo aspect when I mentioned the Caribbean. I thought of it more as a place with a rich and intricate black history. There indeed need to be spaces where African American creators are allowed to tell our stories with the fullness and richness they deserve. Untouched by white people’s ideas/ stereotypes.
@@DCoop1982 - Oh ok. Thank you for understanding where I was coming from and not getting offended. I appreciate that, and thanks for the clarification of what you meant.
Disney is a company that knows that they can do a little effort and get full support from the marginalized communities (especially lgbt and black) Disney has zero competition to push them to fight for our viewership.
But black folks do it even when there are many options. That's why a LOT of problematic people in entertainment and sports continue to have careers after expressing contempt for blackness (more often than not, specifically black women). I won't hurt anyone's feelings by naming their faves, but I've seen people get pass after pass after pass when saying and doing the most heinous, self-hating (or racist, if they're mixed/biracial) stuff. Because a lot of black folks want validation and attractive representation by any means necessary.
@@LadyAstarionAncunin 1. Context definitely matters an excuse is always an explanation but an explanation is not always an excuse.
2. Black men have been the biggest sellout for white dollars for the past six decades. Damn near every black male celebrity we have had has ran away from the black community in some capacity to build and make money for white people they’ve never came back Planted they’re wealth in the black communities so Black people can flourish and create more profit for themselves. Let’s not try and make this a gender war because trust me black men will lose.
3. Even if there were a bunch of sellout black celebrities playing pick me for white validation it wouldn’t change the fact that black viewers are choosing to act as if they have no self-respect when it comes to the demands that they want in a capitalist society.
The whole politically right wing community went on a whole cancel Disney movement because they don’t like that Disney is trying to push more LGBTQ content.(Granted they’re never gonna leave) they are choosing to threaten Disney with their viewership they’re threatening Disney’s pockets. This is how Disney has been walking on eggshells to please them while also doing the bare minimum to please minorities and marginalized people. It’s time that the community does it themselves and if we’re not going to create our own capital then this is our next best bet
lol, I grew up on Disney and I am Queer. We need MORE.
Edit: Disney is a problematic company, and they honestly need to do better.
Yeah I think a lot of lgbtq people are starting to realize that Disney is terrible both at representation and where they spent their dollars (homophobic lawmakers getting pac money). Anti-blackness needs a lot more attention and like most corporations Disney doesn't give the black community enough respect. I'm hoping that we can all come together and challenge these corporate juggernauts in order to acquire a better future for all of us. It really is telling that Disney has so many black and lgbtq executives and they still get so much wrong. The culture itself is corrupting, as well as the money associated with being a corporate executive
Reminds me a lot of the Sims 4, but at least peeps are now realizing how shite they are. I hope Disney fs it up and gets their turn
On the topic of Raya, as someone who's SEA and surrounded by many different and diverse SEA/EA people -- friends, family, societally -- Raya was something no one really identified with. When I watched it with my group of (all Asian) friends, we pointed at the foods we recognized, the beautiful settings... and that was it. It was not a S/EA's story, like Turning Red's themes and messages about finding one's identity as a second gen Asian immigrant, and it wasn't something that focused specifically on one culture. Raya was a large mishmash of SEA cultures, which would've been fine if the culture and identities themselves were explored more, like in Moana, which also took important elements from various Polynesian cultures and combined them (and as someone living in Hawaii, my Hawaiian and Polynesian friends all loved it) but Raya's world felt so shallow. It was beautiful--it looked like our motherlands, it had our foods, and some bits of our language sprinkled in, but the world had no substance and rushed through all four nations with little development (attributed to pacing problems). It could've been about any race and any random dragon or mythological creature, but it just happened to be some empty, ATLA fetch quest of a movie. My friends identified with other films like Encanto, Moana, Turning Red, and Coco a lot more than what Raya could ever offer because they spoke to a cultural soul, something Raya lacked.
I knew it wasn't just me!
And that I wasn't "just being too sensitive" either!
I was so excited about the first black Disney princess!!!
And she was a friggin frog for the majority of the movie!!!
I was really excited about the animated movie Spies In Disguise with a black lead character who's also the hero!
And he's a friggin pigeon for most of the movie!!!
I was really hopeful about the movie Soul because it looked like it was more inclusive of black culture and he's either a blue soul or a friggin CAT!!!!
Is it too much to hope for a children's movie with black lead characters that actually remain BLACK during the movie?
Wtf?
And NOOOOO there's nothing wrong with ME for noticing that shit!!+
And it shows the culture of this world as a whole, and the story of both the Prince and Tiana's character growth through their transformations, which by the way had been done MANY times in Disney - The Little Mermaid, Brother Bear(where he actually STAYS a bear at the end), and even Simba in the Lion King who pretty much becomes a completely different person almost degenerate before taking a look at himself and being who he should've been.
@@kevinzhang6623
yeah that's nice.
I'd like to see black people depicted as actual human beings, that stay HUMAN BEINGS throughout the entire movie.
That just might help humanize black people for many children.
There's plenty of major motion picture princesses and main characters that get to be HUMAN the entire duration of the film.
And it's not too much to expect to see some variety
Wouldn't the stories be completely different though?
Especially for Princess and the frog. If she doesn't change into a frog then her whole character arc no longer exists.
I get the issue of her turning into a frog, really I get it.
But what would be a better rewrite then?
@@garrethb6261 a whole other story about humans who stay human throughout the movie is a good start.
I've never read the story of the princess and the frog where she turns into a frog!
It's always been about a princess who lost her golden ball in a well and a frog promised to go get the ball for her if she brings him back to her castle, let's him eat at the table with her, and sleep in her bed with her...
She agrees but runs back to the castle without him after she gets her ball back.
Her father the King hears about her breaking her promise and forces her to eat and sleep with the frog.
When she does this for some time, she and the frog become friends, she kisses him and he turns into a prince!
And they live happily ever after....
@@kylaarmstrong-benjamin8066 I don't think basing the movie off of the original fairytale would really work for a movie though, especially if all the plot points are the same.
If there is a way to make it work then great, but I'm not sure how you'd make the original story interesting without having some big changes.
The lack of black representation from Disney is so intentional it’s crazy. There aren too many nuanced stories and source materials to draw from for them to only have princess and the frog and soul as the byproducts. I remember that during 2020 they created a highlighted section on their streaming service called Black Stories and the lack of options was so obvious in the fact that the lion king was a prominent focus of that section was crazy
The problem is that Blacks are limited to America and Disney doesn't know how to tell a good story, in an American setting. Disney has always been known for Fairytales, which usually are set in Europe.
@@orangeslash1667 There is a entire black continent with projected to be 1/4th of the earths population by 2050 with a rich history of empires, untold history, and even unknown history being researched today. And also there are plenty of stories African Americans could have told by disney, they just don't actually want to try.
@@crispri3919 Disney is known to experiment what animation can do. The problem is most Fantasy stories usually come from ether Europe or Japan. Disney is too incompetent to make a fantasy story in America, which is where Blacks usually are.
Why Fantasy, because if it can be done in real live, for Disney it's not worth animating.
That's why Tiana turns into a frog, can it be done in real life, Nooo. In animation YES!!!!
@@orangeslash1667 "blacks are limited to America" what??
@orangeslash1667 Fairy tales and folk tales come from all over the world. If you look at Wikipedia alone, you'll find two different categorization methods because there are so many. There are fairy tales and folk tales from Africa. Brer Rabbit was based on the people brought over to America sharing tales from different tribes in a few different countries.
One weird thing about the transformation in TPATF is that it wasn't even necessary or relevant for Tiana and Naveen's character arcs. They could have learned about work-life balance without being turned into animals and being stuck in the bayou, and the film's moral/theme had nothing to do with nature or frogs or anything. Compare that to Disney's Beauty and the Beast, in which the Prince gets transformed because he was acting, well, beastly, and so his character arc is about learning how to act like a human being. Or how in Disney's Brother Bear (although that film has its own issues), Kenai gets turned into a bear so that he can learn a lesson about having more compassion for animals (and for bears in particular).
Edited for clarity and to add this: I understand that any adaptation of The Frog Prince will require at least one of the main characters to be transformed into a frog. However, in some older versions of the tale, the Princess's character arc is essential to the Prince's salvation. The Prince is saved because the Princess loses her spoiled attitude and becomes his friend. But in Disney's TPATF, Naveen just needs a princess, any princess, to kiss him -- love and friendship are not required to break the spell, it's all a technicality. Tiana and Naveen's character arcs are the result of them influencing each other and learning from each other, which only happens because they're in a situation that forces them to work together and grow closer. Tiana and Naveen could have had identical character arcs if they had remained human and were thrown into a hostile wilderness, forced to rely on each other to survive.
In summary: frog transformation in TPATF is disconnected from the story's themes. So it's not a good metaphor. If Disney wanted to adapt The Frog Prince and have the protagonist be their first African-American princess, then there were other, better ways they could have done it.
I would’ve loved a classic prince on the run has to hide in a commoner’s house and learns the meaning of hard work by helping out tiana and achieve her dreams. I wanted to see Tiana’s journey to develop her restaurant and just more interaction with new orleans itself.
You’re saying a lot without saying anything. How does any of what you described directly relate to them transforming into frogs? “Virtue whining” isn’t an informative phrase by the way.
@Cabal Paxiarch I’m simply asking you to explain the symbolic relationship. For example, one could say the Iron Giant is a metaphor for society’s over reliance on warfare/gun violence and is emphasized by the Giant choosing to be a symbol of peace rather than destruction despite his intended function and programming. His being a giant killer robot is essential to the subtext. The question for this conversation is what is the essential or symbolic need for Tiana to be a frog? Your statements about lessons in humility and “realizing what truly matters” are interesting, but you’re not connecting that to the significance of transforming into a frog. You can explain, or you can continue be pedantic without aim. Up to you.
@Cabal Paxiarch You're not as smart as you think you are.
@Cabal Paxiarch But could you explain why frogs? Why not mice or something? There exist similar fairy tales with different animals.
I'm glad you kept this all as one video because it's very important and I think is more impactful when pair with your feelings about these two movies and the state of discourse online. I feel like I'm second guessing myself a lot. I really look at look to you and the others (like Tee Noir, Kimberly, Joulezy, and more) that engage with discourse because your passionate about it and not for clout - as people who affirm my thoughts, articulate these complex concepts I don't have quite have down, and even challenge me because like you said we're not a monolith.
Souls plot confused me, my music teacher both taught and played music professionally and for money with zero conflict. In fact I’d say that’s fairly normal thing for music teachers to do, especially in a large city. I didn’t hate the movie, it was fine but the main conflict was so bland.
I'm sure there's plenty of musicians who feel like being a school music teacher (especially teaching very young children) is below their skill level and not really up to what they could do if they just had the chance. Some might even feel that they're too good to teach that their talents are better served elsewhere.
I'm also sure there's a lot of people who would like both teaching and playing professionally and wouldn't mind either.
Hell there's probably people who like teaching more. It varies from person to person. I think the point in the movie was just that he felt like his true calling was to play professionally, and because that was his goal, anything less of that felt like he wasn't living up to his full potential. It's only after he plays there that he realizes that it didn't really matter, his happiness didn't come from playing professionally, it just came from playing. The setting didn't matter, what made him happy was playing music, no matter where, when or with whom. It's all just water in the end.
Honestly, I wished they focused more on the music. Some of the aspects in the movie felt a little too real in my opinion, and while there were some weird moments with the music ( Joe isn't really playing Jazz as much as contemporary), I'd rather focus on that more.
You nailed the mom's perspective pretty perfectly. The internal conflict of the movie was that Joe, like many people with high aspirations, was blinded from all the good in his life because of his aspirations. It's funny cause I can see why you were confused by the plot, but emotionally I relate much more with pre-epiphany Joe's feelings. I logically know I can still keep my passions and hobbies alongside my job, but there's still a strong internal feeling of "is this what my life really amounts to?"
p.s. I am also a teacher, and watched this movie with my students and they told me they are really happy that life lead me to being their teacher. It made me cry and kind of pulled me out of the mindset of "How can I enhance MY LIFE." and got me thinking about the impact I can have on other lives :)
But that was not the main conflict of the movie
It showcased jazz which certain black folks haven't heard i their lifetime even though it was created by us.
One of the things I always notice about Disney is that because they are so popular people react very emotively when they are criticised. Disney may be part of your childhood but it is not a progressive force.
I don't know about that. Plenty of people criticized Turning Red for really stupid reasons, and that movie is a Disney (and Pixar) movie. People fell for it.
Noticing this as I scroll through the comments. It's actually kind of triggering to watch people be talked down to just for having a differing option about DISNEY for Christ's sake!
@@rommix0 Another problem with Disney is that (Song of the South) may have permanently scared them from representing black culture, beyond anything surfacelevel. Theres a reason why Disney never gave that film DVD release.
You dont have to be a progressive force to have good content.
I'm so glad you brought up the issue of representation being the whole point of many of these movies. I'm Mexican, and when I first watched Coco in theaters, I loved it, but every time I revisit it I see it much more critically (I don't hate it by any means, I just watch it without the excitement of watching it the first time and I feel I can analyze it a little more rigorously). Coco is a story set in Mexico, with Mexican characters, but how much is it a "Mexican story"? And I think a lot of our discussion around these films, especially just after their release, gets caught up in the little details and Easter eggs that they included. I admit it can be fun to watch little details that show that they "did their homework" (in Coco, for example, including cameos of certain obscure Mexican celebrities, or a poster in the background, or a street looking exactly like a street from a small Mexican town). But I then think it's a bit unfortunate that this "attention to detail" gets such praise that it can kinda obscure the fact that this isn't a story of ours, but rather a story told by someone else and fed back to us. But we visited your hometown and added an inside joke to make you feel special.
I wish they had shown more of mexican food that isnt just tamales yknow, just a pet peeve
There's a very good essay about Coco and oppression, it's not about Mexican culture, but I still recommend it
ua-cam.com/video/fQFVby3If5U/v-deo.html
It’s also unfortunate that someone like Jorge Gutierrez is so underrated, despite making beautiful work like The Book of Life, and Maya and the Three.
Yeah I thought it very interesting when she said she liked the princess and the frog when she watched it but not in the rewatch because (as a Mexican) I went to see coco with my sister and we enjoyed it, my sister even cried cause the character design for mama coco reminded her of our visabuela but then she went and watched it again with her partner and didn't really liked it after and told me not to re-watch it so it wouldn't be spoiled for me.
There's this really good video essay called "Coco's Feelgood oppression" and it really opened up my eyes to the criticisms of Coco.
I can see where you're coming from and somewhat relate as an Asian American. I wish we could have an "Asian" movie not about "honor". Even when the movies about those family expectations like Turning Red it's still about that family "honor". Like we're just expected to have these values. And the abuse levels of helecopter parenting is portrayed as a joke. And it's okay because generational trauma and she's sorry. I don't hate the movies. Okay I sorta hate Reya even if I love seeing fairly clearly Asian queer characters on screen. I just hate this idea that we're so different.
As a Southeast Asian person, watching Raya just felt like watching another quest adventure movie, that has a Southeast Asian thinly veiled on it, without putting the effort to include themes and storylines that feel authentically Southeast Asian. I didn't get to resonate with Raya as much as I did with Turning Red and Encanto, which is unfortunate for Disney. In it's attempt to represent Southeast Asia, Disney manages to alienate the people they meant to represent. I could go on and on about how ineffective Raya was for a movie about Southeast Asian culture, but I recommend Xiran Jay Zhao's 3-part video about it, that explains a lot more than I do. I do agree with your statements to some extent and thank you for giving your opinion on it!
@@moren8689 I also found the dragons voice REALLY annoying. And I'll check it out! Thanks for the recommendation.
It strikes me that so many stories about POC tend to involve controlling parents (like in Coco). I’m not certain why that’s such a focus.
What about Big Hero 6? That one wasn't about honor as far as I remember. Ofcourse, 1 good movie to represent a group that is roughly the size of half the world population would still be poor representation.
@@MissMoontree That's a good one that I managed to forget. I really liked that one. But my point still stands about the issue. Especially in media surrounding their identity.
I mean it took YEARS to get a Black Lead in a Disney animated movies and they spend the majority of transformed into NONHUMANS. Make of that what you will.
Yaaaaa, that was a...bad move.
THIS!!
So, Snow-White was an experimental film, the first of it's kind, it needed the lead as often as possible.
Cinderella was made to save the studio and they rotoscoped almost the entirely of the film.
Aurora only got 18 minutes of screen time during the entire film because she was so difficult and time consuming to draw (so was Tiana).
Ariel had no legs during half of the film, and that cut down the budget, and like Cinderella, Disney was on their last legs again. Pun intended.
Beauty and the Beast was done as then redone in a matter of months.
Jasmine was the first darker skinned princess, but the movie was Aladdin, but he was also dark skinned.
Pocahontas. That's it. Pocahontas.
Mulan was Chinese.
And then all the rest.
Every princess has their reason for existing and most of them come from different places. Tiana came when she came.
And if you want a list, German, French, English, Greek, French, Middle-East, North America, China, North America, Germany, Scotland, Norway, Hawaii.
You've got diversity coming out of the wazoo, but all you see is skin tone. That's superficial and stupid.
@@BabsChannel And yet in all those films you mentioned, the leads were still HUMAN for the majority of their films.
@@dramonmaster222 I just gave you an explanation to the downsides, and the lack of appearances and budgets many of the films faced. Including Tiana. She was difficult to draw, you dolt, I mentioned that.
They didn't have to take away Tiana's white friend. In the segregated south it was possible for white and black folks to be friends (even if rare and risky), but they could have at least given her an equally close or closer black friend too. Just didn't make sense to me. Disney is particularly keen to drop the ball at every opportunity with representation, whether it's the black experience, or the existence of non-heterosexuals, or non-gender conforming individuals. I'm glad I never grew an attachment like a lot of people have to the properties and output of Disney.
I mean Tiana did have black friends but she chose to ignore them and work
@@XQN-R She did, but remember that she was written to do so, they could've written those friends and Tiana's relationship with them differently
@@clartblart3266 Another problem with Disney is that (Song of the South) may have permanently scared them from representing black culture, beyond anything surfacelevel. Theres a reason why Disney never gave that film DVD release.
Love this informed take! I’ve always said diversity is deeper than just [INSERT TOKEN BLACK CHARACTER HERE] or making a fictional yt character black. It’s about investing in black creatives to provide them with the tools & resources to create authentic & genuine black stories from the ground up.
Soul and The Princess and the Frog's take on art is an issue for me personally. I'm an indie artist and writer, with my own projects and freelance work, and I teach full-time, multiple subjects, all grades. It's fine to do both, and I frequently have to tell other artists that they are not failures for having a part or full-time job to supplement their income as artists. It's not easy to have a career in the creative fields and it can take years, decades even, of study, dedication and work to receive any recognition and success. As woman with ADHD, the struggle for time management is there and eternal, but if I need a break, I can take a break and I don't feel that I have to overwork myself. Having another job that ensures you have a place to live and food to eat will help you, in the long run. You will be less stressed and not forced to take poorly paid work out of desperation, thus finding clients who value your work and preventing bad clients from undercutting you.
I feel like it's absolutely insane that Disney, a company that undoubtedly overworks a lot of their employees, decided to create stories that taught its marginalized characters (and by extension their audience right?) to chill out and work less. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like it's so particularly condescending and enraging.
there’s absolutely something ironic abt a company that employs thousands of ppl dealing w millions of dollars telling ppl to not work so hard. the medium is… not the message
and animation too, a medium known for being a pain in the ass lol
It is SUS. Disney is honestly WAY too conservative and capitalist for me a lot of the time. I still enjoy many of their movies, and I love to analyze them....but it's so superficial most of the time. Disney is not what I would call a good company.
The only thing I can guess is that some of their animators and writers are trying to cry for help or get kids to not be stuck where they are.
I actually think it's important to note that it's the employees making the stories, not the CEO. It's very telling that Disney has such high reviews on job websites, too, better than most toy companies.
Never trust a company, wokeness doesn't exist what your seeing is companies race baiting. Tell me why diversity is important in a company.
I never really took the lesson in The Princess and The Frog as "You don't have to work so hard" I always took it as "Even if you don't get what you thought you always wanted you can still be happy." Even though Tiana does get her restaurant and Naveen but I digress.
Same, I think they are mixing the messages of these movies... and it's sad.
@@thaym.5822 The message is there's a difference between what you need versus what you want. The moves says that Tiana WANTS to own a restaurant, but it's not what she NEEDS.
I meen the messagge of the movie is there you need a balance. There is a difference betwin working hard, and working too hard. Yes working hard is important to achive your dreams but you can't just work in your life, you also need space for other things like hobbies, friends, family, a love life. Beeing a workalcholic it's not healthy, especialy since burnouts are very much a real thing .
I, too, will turn 30 soon, and I remember being so, so excited for the princess and the frog when it came out. I knew the frog bit was gonna be irritating, but I was gonna support it anyway cause we were finally getting representation! Sis. Within the first 10 minutes my excitement completely diminished and I thought I was going to cry. Tiana was gorgeous, Anika Noni Rose sounded amazing. Tiana's family and neighbors looked like such good people! But then her best friend was a rich white girl with no self-awareness, and my girl had nothing but hard work and absolutely zero faith.
Reality/life kept beating her down, and it felt like I was being told that the magic ran out after the other Disney movies, so, just like us in real life, our Disney princess didn't have the privilege of naivete. We can't just wish on a star for once? Not even in a Disney fantasy movie? They couldn't even let her be the real main character! It broke my heart, and I barely finished it. Just once, I wanted to be able to drink the Disney princess kool-aid, but my girl still had to slave away and keep smiling at the white people.
Plotwise, nothing that happened was really her fault, but somehow, everything became her responsibility to proactively fix/tend to, and she suffered for it. The movie does a poor job at black representation, but this particular point was so accurate about black women's role in society, and it fucking kills me.
Tl;dr: Tiana remains a queen, but the princess and the frog movie remains one of my biggest childhood let downs and I'm still triggered lol Great video, as always! I also couldn't watch soul for literally the same reasons 😂
I don't get the job conflict in Soul either. I'm a music teacher and know a lot of other teachers, we all are capable of doing both haha. In fact, taking on the night gig with Dorathea would make him a better teacher, most likely. I always teach better when I have multiple types of projects on the go, because they can be drawn on and you are actively learning yourself, so you are more cognizant about the challenges your students face.
(I know that's not the main point of this video, but I appreciate that you brought it up because I didn't really clue in to why that felt so off for me before)
Exactly and also, being a full-time teacher in NYC public school might not even pay all your bills
@@Princess_Weekes sad but true!
I don't think that the conflict was that he had to choose between jobs, but facing the reality that even when your dreams come true, your problems won't go away if you don't address them properly. Sometimes your depression won't go away if you change your shitty job for one better job.
We always have this vision of "when I'll reach X then I'll be truly happy!", which is often not true, because big problems won't suddenly disappear.
Even if I would have liked to see him continuing with the band AND the school.
@@kat4923 that makes sense!
@@kat4923 great breakdown.
While I know Soul has its problems, I related so much to the main character (feeling stuck in life, lack of purpose, feeling like a failure and with a wasted life with no accomplishments whatsoever), that I can't dislike it.
It really opened my eyes about the meaning of life and gave me a little hope for the future.
I didn't see it as a "pro-life" movie because I thought that the main lesson is directed for who is already living, not for who has to be born yet.
Me too
Something that came to mind at around the 1:00:00 mark... whenever a marginalized creator has a messy take, it feels like instead of having a meaningful discussion about our identities and how we feel, we are simply performing discourse for white/cis people to consume. It's sort of voyeuristic in a way, all while placing certain marginalized identities on a pedestal that no one asked to be put in
Don't get me wrong but alot of the people who are held accountable for racist things are rich, a celebrity, something from a movie. It's business and niches being filled never expect it to go away as long as people want to consume THAT. IT WILL BE CONSUMED and these animals who thrive here give more reason to copy that and thrive yourself. Why did Jerry Springer do so well
@@xanv8051 Ok but that's not at all what I was saying though... I meant it more like, "trans creator has a messy take about being trans, other trans people start having a discussion around it about their identities as trans people, cis people join in for no reason"
just started the video, but i thought id just let you know that your summarization of princess and the frog made me laugh haha "where they meet two very annoying talking animals"
XD 🧡🧡 they are the worst xD
@@Princess_Weekes Love to see that y'all view each other's work!
@@Princess_Weekes Another problem with Disney is that (Song of the South) may have permanently scared them from representing black culture, beyond anything surfacelevel. Theres a reason why Disney never gave that film DVD release.
@@Princess_Weekes I liked Ray and Lou
@@Princess_Weekes That’s the one thing I can’t agree with you on.
Because of movies like this, I’ve started to build this dream of creating my own animation studio to make solely black female led movies. And I’d start with my own experience and build from there. I’m not particularly well incorporated with my own blackness, very much an Oreo. I’ve grown up in a LOT of PWIs and it took me a long time to really see the issues in a lot of the representation I saw. But, I also got a part of my black experience from my church that was full of people who grew up with only other black people. They gave me a lot more perspective, and I hope I can get a stronger identity at an HBCU.
I wanna create my own representation, and not just black women, but black girls. I want to make hella black girls cause I still don’t have a movie that I like with a black teen girl that I relate too. Whose story isn’t centered around oppression, drugs, rap, discrimination, and pain. I want black teen musicians who struggle with their artistry and finding themselves. I want stories with Oreos like me that have a conflict of culture and society. I want it all
@@betsycheddar Yesssss!!!! This is the type of content I’ve been needing to see! I hope you’re able to achieve this. We need it!
Let us know when you start making them! I wanna be a supporter 😁
@@betsycheddar Another problem with Disney is that (Song of the South) may have permanently scared them from representing black culture, beyond anything surfacelevel. Theres a reason why Disney never gave that film DVD release.
@@orangeslash1667 They high key didn’t even try in that movie haunts my soul and evades any good logice
"Tiana is a character all about ambition, but the movie has none"
Devastating and accurate observations, as always. It's so sad how shallow (and sometimes hollow) Princess and the Frog's characters are.
Your note about HP and the whole slavery storyline rings so true to me. I read HP later in life (religious parents) and I remember bringing up to my friends, who were potterheads, my criticisms with it's SPEW storyline, and how other magical creatures are treated as a whole. It's established that they are not only sentient, but have the capability to teach at hogwarts, run banks, all these "human" things, but still othered in a way that made me uncomfortable. The books really said that over racism is bad but institutionalized racism is just how things are, no, how things should be.
I also brought up that it's interesting that people raged against Hermione being cast as black (cursed child had just come out at the time) and between the curly hair thing, slurs thrown against her by wizards nazis, being told shes one of the "good ones" by the 'non racist' wizardds, I was like "sounds like my experience of being smart POC at a PWI." Only one friend took my issues seriously (which prompted a conversation about Hermione being black or biracial would also explain why she was so invested in SPEW and Harry, even though he also grew up in the muggle world and was previously mistreated, didn't have the same reaction).
Anyway, people bringing this up has been a weird experience. On the one hand, a lot of my previous issues with the series are finally being more wildly acknowledged, have a sense of vindictation for my feelings on it. But on the other hand, I get accused of jumping on JK hate train and I'm like I've been having these issues AS I was reading the series for the first time.
Now that you bring it up It's weird how well black Hermione fits despite it not being Rowling's intention at all, she made it pretty clear that Hermione was based somwhat on herself and she was consulted about the casting of the movie, so there's no mistaking how Rowling imagined the character to look like, yet changing her race doesn't really alter her story in major ways, of course she canonically faces discrimination for her parents not being wizards but like you said it does still fit, of course people inevitably take issue when you drastically change how a well known character looks, and we all know that Rowling only said she never stated Hermione was white in the books to look cool cause we all know she can't rapresent anyone other than herself, but I never really thought about how her being black still works, mainly because I just dismissed the cursed child as a stupid unnecessary sequel so I didn't really care about the cast in the play, might as well have been sock puppets.
I stopped reading Harry Potter as a kid because of Cho Chang.
Harry Potter has always been a yike and it annoys me that when I talk about how bad it is people assume I'm saying it cos just cos J/K Roflmao sucks as a person not all the ways that is imbedded right in her work
@@morgantrias3103 My mother is a HUGE Potter fan, so if you can example how Harry Potter is poorly written. That be great, cause I barely remember the books.
@@orangeslash1667 It's not sooo much that it's poorly written, I'd say a badly written book you enjoy isn't so badly written anyway (though I imagine it is not skilled, but that's not my area of expertise. It seems padded and lacking in themes maybe? Things don't tend to arc back on the earlier elements of the story in a very satisfying way. Harry destroying a journal in book 2 turning out to be important in book 6 is the only time I can think where the books really feel woven together properly her worldbuilding is very generic mythology tropes and magical school stuff is a prexisting genre) mostly the way she writes about women always seemed mean/smug/dismissive/misogynistic in a way I can't think of concretely without rereading. But Hermione was supposed to be J/K's self insert, which means if you ignore her for a second, there isn't a single female character you couldn't remove from the story without mucking up the plot, apart from Harry's mum who isn't a character but a plot device because she's dead throughout the books. The plot is moved forward by men and only men. She's extremely gross and careless in her depiction of racial minorities and LGBT people too, but that's more obvious (eg Cho Chang is a Korean family name and a Chinese family name jammed together in a way that makes no sense, 2 seconds of research could have fixed that)
I think I disagree with her opinion that the “hard work makes dreams happen” theme is basic… you have to remember that this film was one of Disney’s first animated films post renaissance and the whole “wishing on a star” theme was still very widely associated with this specific kind of film. By todays standards it may not hold up well but I think for the time it was pretty revolutionary or at least I remember it being so
Yes, the idea that Tiana had the agency to make her own dreams come true was big. Look at Tnagled, Rapunzel was so sheltered she had a panic attack when she left with the guy. Frozen was the next movie to say that the princesses can drive the story.
I disagree, I think Mulan is the first Disney princess that challenged the “wishing on a star” theme
@@joelle4226 Lol, no, think again. Ariel. Most people disagree with her tactics of leaving her family to do what she wanted to do, but that's what set her apart. She did, in fact, go to any means to reach her goal. She lead her story.
@@griffenspellblade3563 Frozen is poorly written, it's a terrible adaptation of the SnowQueen. Elsa was originally going to be a villain, but (let it go) convinced the writers to rewrite everything, and make Elsa more of an anti-hero.
@@BabsChannel Ariel still has an I Wish song in her treasure trove and relies on dubious, costly magic to get on land. I'm not denying she had drive. However, her agency for exploration falls apart with Eric, to being a different kind of princess. The sequels bog that down further with Ariel doing the same to her daughter that Triton did to her.
I'm Siclian with black hair like snowite but darker skin sorta of the shade of Jasmines, one year my hair was short so I decided for Halloween I would go as Snowwhite! I already had the hair! When I went to a friends Halloween party all my friends said I was too dark to be snow-white and and only pretty light skinned girls could dress up as her. It was the worst feeling in the world. When I dressed up as Jasmine another year they said I wasn't Middle Eastern, I was so confused and frustrated and since there is no Sicilian Disney princesses I just stopped dressing up like them! Representation is very important! How come we have 3 french disney princesses but only one black one? It's not fair Disney needs to pick up there game!
When you hit on the fact that Disney doesn't feel the need to include a WASP character in non-black POC movies is telling. Hell, not even Black Panther could get away with having an entirely black cast.
MMMMMMMMM NO WE NEEDED MATIN FREEMAN !!! /s
To me, Charlotte didn't really bother me (she made sense in a way, but it really was Disney needing to check the box of having a white savior character in black movies made by white/white-identified folks) compared to Ross in Black Panther, from the way he treated T'Challa with such disrespect in the beginning to him needing a heroic moment in the film. It felt forced, especially considering he's in the U.S. government -- you know he's there to spy on Wakanda like so many missionaries to Africa throughout history. 😂
And, of topic a bit, but I can't STAND the credits scene when Wakanda comes out of the shadows and says they're going to share their tech. What?? Wakanda would be ATTACKED and destroyed and strip-mined in real life! If they shared their tech, it would be turned on them. That is a ridiculous, naïve, even harmful ending. I love the movie so much but hate that scene. So, I like to stop at the better ending, in which he goes into the city and talks about helping it out quietly. Move in secret, black people.
They seemed to have a change of heart by the time Shang-Chi came around - literally centered the pointless white character doing a bit in a panning shot of Asian bodies. Now every movie gets a WASP crammed up its ass, apparently.
When they added Bilbo baggins
What is a WASP character?
"Why are our movies So about WORK?"
Me who is white but leftist: "I think capitalism..."
I agree there needs to be more than just WORK and that there needs to be actual representation created by black voices, or at the very LEAST with many black voices giving opinions, experience, and input into the work. At the very LEAST. I write and draw and I have minority/non-white characters all across the board of my fictional worlds and dimensions, and I ask my friends and fellow students what they think (I live in a diverse area, so I am lucky to have many different people be able to talk to me and tell me their thoughts, feedback, educate me etc.). You can't write what you don't know.
Representation matters, and though it is not at all comparable in any way, I can empathize as a Queer and neurodivergent woman. Hopefully, the full spectrum of humanity will actually be represented and heard in humanity's art and expression that's more "mainstream" or big.
I have a degree in Art and literature Critism and yet sometimes I feel uncomfortable sharing my criticism online because I don't want people to see my criticism as means for harassment.
What kind of soft headed bean burrito would do that?
@@BabsChannel cause people think in very binary terms, especially people that're on the internet all the time. They get a positive feedback loop going, and after a while, every other position becomes taboo, even violent.
I love that you touched on my main issue with Princess and the Frog: the presence of white people. I think it was entirely unnecessary to have white people in the movie. Sure there can be some white folks in the background or whatever, but why does there have to be white people in the main cast? There are plenty of stories disney has told with zero black people, and there are plenty of situations (e.g. segregated 1920s Louisiana) where having an all black cast would make WAY more sense. It doesn't even have to "make sense", cause there doesn't need to be a reason for having an all black cast. Smh
I remember a white youtuber saying that he didn't like their inclusion because it felt patronizing, as if Disney thought people wouldn't want a black character the star of the show without "nice white people" in said show.
@@DriftPiss9000 yms?
@@kostajovanovic3711 ??
@@DriftPiss9000 The UA-camrs name - I like him he's great!
You just scream “ENTITLED”
I had to pause your video to write this comment! In the over 10 years of me watching this movie, I've never realized that Tiana and Facilier have like no connection to each other! Facilier is literally Naveen's villian, like Tiana would have no beef with him in particular otherwise! I always felt like the movie was flat (even tho I think Naveen and Tiana's relationship is really cute) and you just explained one of its major issues. How did disney write a movie where the antagonist is not actively trying to bring down the protagonist (like isn't good vs. evil their main thing)??? Wow my mind is blown!!!
Tiana is facing a Man Vs. Self conflict. What's so wrong with that?
@@BabsChannel it’s boring
Anastasia does the same thing, to much fridge hilarity. I think everybody likes the secret-princess-rags-to-riches aspect over the shoehorned magical Disney villain (in the form of Russia's Greatest Love Machine). Rasputin just shows up at the end like "WHY WON'T YOU DIE?" and she's like "I'm sorry, who are you?"
@@BabsChannel nothing inherently, but no other Disney princess has this type dynamic. It doesn't sit right with me that they switched it up for their 1st Black princess
@@aliciarose2237 So, you'd rather she blend in with the other princesses?
I completely feel you as a native person all we really have is Pocahontas and some old Disney stuff that I'd really rather not remember... And of course the white co-lead with that is none other than Mel bloody Gibson.
I pray one day they get enough guts to go into the full Aztec history or trying to clean that stuff up but until then I have that Netflix series that I love xD (mind you it isn't perfect but it wasn't pretty good show for oh what I was expecting)
Keep up the wonderful work I enjoy your insights
Which Netflix show
@@catsthemovie4692 they probably mean Maya and the Three, an animated Netflix show about Aztec characters and gods, it's a beautiful show when it comes down to animation.
They really had to romanticize a horrific part of that history. She could've been played without the colonizer as her love interest like Merida or Moana
(note: I'm white, with possible ancestry, and don't want anyone to assume that my comment is from the POV of someone Native. I've learned a lot the past few years, but obviously should be taken with a grain of salt)
Cw for vague mentions of colonial violence and racism/fetishism (two sides of the same coin)
Pocahontas has a beautiful soundtrack (though it feels inauthentic even there because it doesn't include themes or songs in actual Native styles. Like call and response drumming and singing. It can be so moving, haunting, joyful, etc. and it could've been very powerful.) but almost everything else about it is so harmful, and the amount of fetishism and appropriation (Halloween costumes for example) that it sparked is horrible.
The story is a true one, but they only took the names from what happened. They changed the ages, the violence, the fact that she was kidnapped and definitely did not love her captors, every important detail.
In reality there actually was a lot of intermarriage, some of which was genuine and positive. (Moreso in areas the French settled than with the English.) If they were interested in depicting a positive romance between a settler and a Native person, they could have made the story about that. Or about the settlers who landed, sick and dying of scurvy, who were saved by Natives. A story of learning to communicate and appreciate Native knowledge.
But no matter what, it's something that should've been written and directed by actual Native people, with no white actors voicing Indigenous characters. Imagine an animated movie created by Indigenous people with all of the resources of Disney at their hands.
OH! I just remembered about a show I watched that was actually set in Mesoamerica, written by a couple with actual heritage and voiced by Latinx people! Actually the people behind it were also the writers of El Tigre and The Book of Life. The wife created and wrote the female and child characters while the husband did the men and more monstrous looking forms of the gods, so it also does a good job of avoiding sexism.
It's called Maya and the Three. Bear in mind, it's more of a fantasy legend story that heavily centers gods and spirituality based on real aspects of the cultures that lived there, rather than a more realistic down to earth historical representation. It also has a lot of things representing the current culture there, with Spanish language and telenovela references sprinkled in there, and has an island of Black people (which, from what I've seen, is heavily debated whether or not there were Black people in the Americas before colonization. But the creator wanted to include them because they are such an important part of modern culture there.)
Also, fair warning, there is a lot of character deaths. It's often seen more as a transition than an end and is bittersweet rather than negative. And the character designs really lean into the exaggerated proportions seen in relics, rather than being realistic.
Disney: We are going to give you more representation!
Us: 0-0
Disney: There is a young black woman trying to make a restaurant by working double shifts.
Us: Wow
Disney: And she is a small green frog that spends most of her scene time with a firefly!
The message I got out of Soul was, well the issue wasn’t that he was pursuing his dream of being a jazz musician but that he was judging the value of his life off the outcome of that endeavor. When really the simple act of living is worthwhile in and of itself. Just because your life didn’t turn out like you planned it too doesn’t mean it was pointless.
Which is a much better message than Princess and the Frog. Granted I can see the overlap but to me Soul gives a much more nuanced message about pursuing your dreams but not having tunnel vision.
Also this doesn’t disqualify the lackluster race handling of Soul because yeah even my white butt picked up on the portrayal issues in this movie. But I still standby it’s slightly more nuanced than “bad work life balance”
Edit: also can I point out the only reason he got the Jazz gig is because he was a teacher and one of his students went on to be a musician because of him? The movie is not anti him having a day job, or him getting the gig. It’s anti him seeing himself as a failure because he has to have a day job.
So I vividly remember the time period during which The Princess And The Frog was released. I remember my (at the time) best friend having her birthday party at the theater where we watched the movie. What was really interesting to me is that a couple different kids in our class (yes they were white) weren’t allowed to go to the party by their parents, who didn’t want their children to subjected to the imagery of Voodoo and that aspect. One of them wasn’t even religious, they just didn’t want their kid to see it ig. Even as a child I knew something was off, but now I understand even more that Disney completely fcked us over. By depicting Voodoo the way they did, as evil and corrupt, Disney alienated entire audiences that could have otherwise really enjoyed the movie and found something to keep them engaged and wanting to rewatch. It’s really INTERESTING how this is the Disney Princess movie to perform a bit underwhelming in theaters compared to pretty much all of the other Disney Princess movies. See, magic is used in Disney films, yet magic that comes from the Black diaspora is where a CRAP TON of people drew the line. Mmmmmm… also, the talking animals was really giving suspicious, but I also noticed a common detail missing. Most if not all of the princesses had animals, most of whom DIDNT talk, and they were just pets/protector sidekicks (ex: Jasmine has Raja, Rapunzel has Pascal, and Aurora has her forest animals) However, Tiana’s movie has multiple talking animals, including both protagonists during the course of the movie, and she never had a specific animal (PET) that could be a sidekick associated with her as a human. Ik it’s such a small grievance to have, but it’s still really weird to me and I just hate how they had that gorgeous woman be a fckn frog for her entire movie like I’m so heated. Also, Tiana had both parents but then her dad is the one who died and we didn’t have any other discernible Black men in the movie that we could root for. The only Black man that stayed in that movie was the villain. Why couldn’t they just make Naveen a Black (or canonically biracial) man who had more of a reason to be there in the first place. Maybe he’s got Black relatives in New Orleans that he’s meeting for the first time or something. To my knowledge, the general consensus among the Black community is that Naveen (though fine as hell) isn’t necessarily Black in the movie, he’s just kinda ethnically ambiguous ig? I could be wrong, so lmk. As an adult who has childhood memories associated with this movie, it’s very concerning how messy and extremely mishandled it was. There was no reason for it to be like this and that’s what bothers me the most.
Now, I didn’t see Soul. It didn’t really look interesting to me to begin with, but I was also irritated because, as we saw with Tiana, the protagonist isn’t allowed to be a human for the majority of their movie. Also, what’s with Disney and making Black people be animals during their own films..? Like it’s ludicrous. But I saw a bunch of people loving soul and also a bunch of people saying it’s boring, and I just decided that I don’t want to go out of my way to watch it, but I’ll probably see it at some point throughout.
HELLO?? What’s with Disney and making Black people into martyrs or subservient to other people. Tiana worked her life down and then was willing to give up Naveen (a FUCKING PRINCE) to her white best friend. Tiana then proceeds to open her restaurant, but we never see her actually being a princess at all. And with Soul, this man wants to give his life in order for a being who hasn’t even been born yet to get to live in the world. Also, the Magical Negro characters, I never wanna see them again unless it’s media actually made by Black people telling Black stories.
All in all, I absolutely love you and your channel, I’m really happy for you gaining confidence in yourself as someone with this platform. I definitely agree with so much of what you brought up in this video and I feel a bit more validated in how much I disliked the overall execution of these movies. I still stan Tiana, but the actual movie is something I don’t really find myself rewatching very much.
Excellent videos, Princess 👏🏾 its crazy how even though I didn’t grow up with Disney (wasn’t on cable in the Bahamas growing up), the practices have permeated throughout the industry and extends far beyond Disney itself. That’s why creators like you, Harriyanna, Toonrifc Tariq and so many more. Big up ya self!
Disney critical… Harold Bloom slander… Trial by Twitter… this video has it all. Phenomenal.
I've always felt that people should invest more time and money into other studios animated films. Disney shouldn't be the only entity that produces animated work. They don't need to do anything ground breaking because they'll get money regardless. I happen to enjoy both films but you are correct about them not being about the black experience. This is where another studio might pick up where Disney might falter.
I don't know. Disney I'm definitely done and over with, but since Turning Red came out Pixar has won me back as a fan.
Don't get me wrong. Sony is currently my favorite animation studio strictly for the experimental visual style, but Pixar is really starting to experiment with different storytelling and settings. I think we may have another golden era on our hands.
@@rommix0 Well didn't age well.
Pinocchio, Peter Pan, Buzz lightyear
Calling Dobby a pick me house elf had me cackling omg
One of the external perspectives (I'm a white guy) I've had on black media is that there's regular praise given for media that represent the breadth of different possible black experiences, rather than being distilled down so heavily. Tiana and Joe both seem like they were needed to condense all that breadth into one character, and so their personalities get largely reduced to their relationship with work, because any other writing could potentially alienate the target audiences.
And the way they shoehorn in a 'ideal white contributor' character (22, Charlotte) so that white audiences have an anchor grounding place is something I've become more and more aware of as I try to more critically approach these films.
Thanks for the fantastic deep dive!
For example in the Black movies, the white person saves the day in white movies there is rarely a black person savior. The rich white friend and no black friends for a person living in a black community in Princess and the frog was weird.
I haven't seen Soul. 22 doesn't seem ideal. No one's perfect.
Charlotte is definitely not ideal. She's nicer than you might think from not knowing much about the movie and thinking about stereotypes, but Tiana's better.
22 isn't even white. "She" doesn't even have a gender. Just a soul who uses a white woman voice to annoy people
@@candyxoxo19 Disney did made the Proud Family, so that's gotta count for something?
God damnit why do a lot of people think 22’s white? 😭 They’re an unborn soul without a physical body yet?
I know there are more important and brilliant things you said but you calling Dobby a “pick me” elf KILLED ME 😭😭😭
Tiana's mom was Lottie's dressmaker, probably Lottie's mother's too. Big Daddy could have cut Tiana a check at any point for her restaurant, clearly was fond of her enough to do so, but by eating her beignets and probably tipping generously he got to help her along with Tiana keeping her pride. Featherheaded, sweet Lottie just threw money at Tiana. Different flavors of white savior, I suppose.
From a shotgun house with barely a gumbo pot to call her own to her own place, The Place to Be, and she did it through her own sweat and effort. I adore this movie and character, but thank you for sharing your views. More ways to watch than just mine.
Honestly if it had just been that, I would’ve loved the movie full scale. Really my primary issue was that she spent 85% of it as a damn frog.
Yeah but we forgot that New Orleans is and has always been and primarily black city so why no black community interaction
@@Disre.damn.spectful I think it speaks to how far Tiana has fallen from what her father would have desired for her at this point in her life. That's what she came to the conclusion of when the Shadow Man promised her the restaurant for the necklace. She probably did start out being in that community, but after her dad died she could have withdrawn a bit, become more focused on one of her father's wishes, which was to have a restaurant. She started working and, when that building went up for bidding, she worked even harder. Her friends even said as much in that diner scene. She didn't hang out anymore, didn't go out. I do get that it was a way for disney to not have to include the black community interactions, but that's also the lesson Tiana needed to learn. You can work hard, just don't lose sight of what matters. We didn't see what happens after the happily ever after, but we hardly ever do until the sequels in any of disney's movies.
Tiana turned down the money. She had to do it the hard way.
tiana probably kept turning down the money....cause.....the struggle?
Am I the only one that hated Lottie because she's allegedly Tiana's friend, has to know Tiana's working two jobs busting ass to have a restaurant, definitely knows Tiana's a talented and hard working chef.... and that it only cost her what she'd spend to have a party catered to have Tiana's dream come true..... And she couldn't have gotten that money to her ages ago??? Even as like an interest free loan or something? Lottie, I'm onto you >:/
I felt the same. Its actually one of the things I like about the movie in a weird way. I always sort of read it as basically showing how even the token nice white people were still ultimately useless at actually helping.
Like you say Lottie clearly knows about Tiana's dream and likes her but it seemingly never occurs to her that she could easily help her. She's so privileged and oblivious, that she throws around what is a life changing amount of money for Tiana like nothing. I took it as less malice and more she's so privileged she doesn't even realize the problem, which isn't really any better.
I'd add that this is then mirrored in the end where Lottie wants to help but is ultimately unable to break the curse, she's once again completely useless, and Tiana and Naveen instead break the curse themselves.
I definitely never got all the people who thought Lottie was the more likable or charming character, in any case
... having Lottie as a white passing with a mom who is black and "Big Daddy" white could be real interesting... but there's literally so much there it could change Lottie to the main character.
27:20 Though very simple, I liked Tiana's motivation, because I thought she *was* continuing and expanding on the dreams of her father. When I first saw the movie, I saw the subtle references to Tiana supporting her community and facing discrimination and thought, "White folks might not pick up on any of this, but that's okay."
I agree that Princess and the Frog is clearly the sanitized result of (mostly) white creators trying to avoid mistakes. However, I think that's a natural step on the path to better representation. This year I saw Turning Red, a Pixar film directed solely by an Asian woman, and some of my favorite moments were ones that felt authentic-like the daughter beaming when the dad approved her dumpling technique. I didn't interpret that as representing the experiences of all Asian children, just those of a director who happened to be Asian. I love that and feel like gradually having more diversity behind the camera has continually produced better results on screen.
All that said, Soul felt like hollow representation for all the reasons you cited. I really wish they had cast someone like Tayla Parx to voice 22. Her acting in the Walking Dead video game was funny and incredibly moving.
The Princess and the Frog talk about the voodoo villain reminds me of similar talk in a tabletop RPG I like called Mage the Awakening. In that game, there's this Legacy, more or less a type of character you can have your mage become, called the Bokor. They're absolute bad guys. They destroy the anchors of ghosts to force them to move on, they graverob and kill both to get the bodies they use to animate the dead, and even a good bit of mind control towards the living is in their powerset. And in response to this, a number of actual voodoo communities spoke out and said "Yeah, that's pretty much a Bokor, please continue to depict them as utter asswipes". In other words, if you are going to depict a member of a culture as the bad guys, go ask that culture what the bad guys are called, what they do and how to not step on the culture at wide's toes.
The weird hand-waving of segregation and power structures in Princess & the Frog felt uncomfortable to me in its strain to avoid "tension." (On a different note, I have Cajuns on my mom's side of the family, and wooooooof.)
Would it have been better in your opinion for the first black Disney Princess film to have been all about segregation and power structures?
@@alexbennet4195 Disney did made the Proud Family which uses Blacks so that's gonna count for something.
@@orangeslash1667 you know you can say "black people" and not "blacks" right
I still really like both _Princess and the Frog_ and _Soul_ (despite some problematic elements with their stories). I think _PatF_ is still an underrated movie that deserves better recognition. Hopefully, the upcoming Tiana series will handle her character and address some of the problematic elements of the movie better.
I think _PatF_ can be more forgiven with its poor implications since the movie was made in the 2000s and on the tail end of the "Post-Disney Renaissance era," which was an era for Disney full of hit and miss movies. _Soul_ went into production in the late 2010s and was release 11 years after_ PatF_ and even repeated a similar premise as _PatF_ where a black protagonist doesn't get to remain human or in their original body throughout most of the movie. You'd think the people at Disney/Pixar would know better by now based on the little controversy _PaTF_ endured over its black representation. _Coco's_ main Mexican character gets to remain human for of his movie and _Turning Red_ gave its main Chinese-Canadian character a good balance between being human and a red panda. I'm also surprised you didn't bring up _Spies in Disguise_ despite not technically being a Disney movie. Blue Sky Studios' first main black character also got turned into a pigeon and had to get pair up with a quirky white character on a mission too. What an odd pattern for some major animation studios' first black protagonists so far... Miles Morales and Tip (from Dreamworks' _Home_ ) would be considered outliers, except that they're both mixed race characters. So..
When Disney makes a next animated movie about black characters, they better remain human and get a lot of screen time for their stories. I'm surprised that haven't made an African or a Caribbean princess movie yet. There's a lot of stories and folklore from African and Caribbean countries to make an adaptations of.
Tiana is the only Disney princess who begot a restaurant instead of a castle. For further injury the animators put a more charming innocent hearted female to juxtapose her (Charlotte). Also she and the prince get turned into animals (as most black leads are forced to do).
Wow you understand my sentiments entirely. As a lover of Disney movies I have watched every movie with black stories have some sort of a white hero. In white Disney movies it is extremely rare to have a black person save the day. The black princess gets to work, take care of the family, be the backbone of her community and nourish society. The nonblack princess gets to wish upon a 🌟.
This isnt the first time disney has done this to people of color remember brother bear
@@candyxoxo19 have people forgotten that Disney made the Proud Family and it’s sequel???????
@@candyxoxo19 what about literature. I ever read a very weird story (imagine Craig of the Creek but much darker and choked with bizzare imagery) where the main black heroes (a young man and his nephews) cursed into animals. Although unlike Princess and the frog they not spend entire story in animal form, it only happens in later half of of the story.
@@quasi8180 hell you could even make a slight argument for Emperor's New Groove. It's a weird pattern at the least
I wanted to watch Soul until I learned the majority of the movie was gonna be annoying Tina Fey baby ghost and body swap shenanigans. I thought it was going to be a straight forward character drama but Pixar seems to have no confidence in their own plots these days and they have to add in all sorts of stuff that just isn't ancillary to the main premise.
Princess and the Frog was just so directionless to me at times. Just rushing from one song set piece to another, WAY too many pointless animal sidekicks (and yeah they're super annoying), no idea what it wanted to focus on. I would have happily followed a story focused on her getting her restaurant. Like just drop the connection to the Frog Prince story all together if you have to. Also she should have dumped that manchild as soon as they were human again lol.
Damn, I feel you so much on the Soul plot disappointment and how Naveen really didn't redeem himself to Tiana-- not enough for them to get MARRIED at least!
Love this video, loved learning more and seeing other perspectives. I've been aware of the problems with Princess and the Frog, but it remains one of my favorite Disney animated films and it was interesting to hear another take on it. Thank you, as well, for recommending the presentation! Hopping over to see that now.
Oh my gosh. There were so many things you said in this video that really hit home, but the one about seeing the work that BIPOC Harry potter fans had been doing getting co-opted/ over powered by people chasing clout, that really resonated
18:29 - "Palpable for a white audience"....As a member of that white audience, I have never understood that mindset. Why is it that filmmakers are under the impression that we're so simple minded that we can't handle watching a culture represented that doesn't look just like ours? It's the same way that there are so many stories with authors and setting outside of the United States, but in the film version the main character just has to be an American or else nobody will watch it. For some reason they picture an entire audience staring blankly, heads all cocked to the side, muttering "Duh, there are people interacting and none of them are exactly like me. I can't follow this."
Then on the rare occasions they do come out with something that they claim to have some representation they end up ruining it by doing everything they think they need to do to play it safe. Then when their clumsy, half-hearted attempt predictably doesn't do well at the box office they take that as proof that they were right all along. And the cycle continues.
I loved this video. On a related but unrelated note: I miss Lindsay Ellis… I hated watching what was happening and I was terrified to speak up and say she didn’t deserve what was happening. I just decided to make sure I was diversifying the video essayists I’m subscribed to. I’m glad I did but I will always miss Lindsay.
I definitely have my problems with her, like her apologetics for Stephanie Meyer and Indigenous North American racism, but I feel like her tweets about Raya were fucking _nothing_ and not a good reason for her to be harassed off of platforms.
we legit lost one of the best with lindsay's retirement. i'd love to hear her thoughts on a bunch of shit that's happened since she left.
@Master Markus Are you talking about her video essay on Twilight? I am only asking because I think that video is more about her acknowledging that when it came to her hating Twilight, she was just jumping on a hate bandwagon and further discussing how culture tends to hate on things that are marketed and liked by teenage girls. Maybe there is something else she did to apologize for the problematic features of Twilight that I don't know about, but from what I remember, the point of the video was "sorry I hated Twilight because everyone online was hating on Twilight".
Yes, to everything you said. And Twitter became a place where the majority of people go for the most egregious type of replies/comments for clout and nothing else, always starting from bad faith alone in hopes to "destroy a target ". I'm not there anymore and find the discussions happening over there, bleeding into the real world invalid. I just feel sorry for the creative community that still engage and pay the price for trying to have any meaningful participation there. All the best to you and to Lindsay❤
54:20 The part about Jk Rowling, like I never was a fan of Harry potter, but when I saw all the evidence of all of the racism and antisemitism of the books, I was chocked, asking myself of how people didn't notice it before.
Now with you speaking it made so much sense, all the Harry potter fans I talked with were white, of course no one was talking about it. Now it makes a lot of sense, the worst part is that even after she was outed as a terf, there're still people supporting her, even after all the evidence of her racist and transphobic behaviour.
Being a minority on fandom just makes us feel ignored and hysterical as if we did something wrong.
Also thank you for this amazing and well made video, kisses from Brazil!
People have noticed it and talked about it since the books first came out. It's just that a bunch of 9 year-old children don't really care in the moment nor really have the tools to critically examine the work when swept up in the whimsy of some of the worldbuilding. It's not until those kids grew up, and her public profile went to shit that it became a more mainstream topic, but it's always been there.
I would love for you to do a video on the racism and anti-Semitism in Harry Potter. I love the books and still do, but I won’t give any more of my money to that franchise. Still, I would love to hear your opinions on the racism and anti-semitism. Until recently, I turned a blind eye towards it, now that I know Rowling is transphobic, I’m ready to hear it.
@@emilyrowl9421 well I am not that knowledge on it either, I think you can find some people talking about it tho.
The examples I can remember in the top of my head are:
- one of the characters Cho Chang has a name that is basically two surnames of two different east asian countries, so an awful name. Also she is fits the "smart asian" stereotype.
- the goblins (now it scaped my head if that's the real name of those creatures in English or not, sorry) are bankers and in the movies the star of David is in the floor of their bank, making a allusion to the antisemitic idea that jews are greed creatures with big noses and that are all rich.
- also none of the other magic schools make any sense, for example why all South America has ONE magic school? We don't even speak the same languages!!
There is more problems with her books, but I don't remember all of them right now
@@lordarthur2165 although Harry Potter is set in England there are almost no POC except 1 token Asian Cho Chang, 1 Token Black person and 2 Token Indian girls and all of them are super stereotypical. So that's probably a thing too.
@@xylypotatohead3947 yep, that's true too.
Congratulations on the channel name change! I'm functionally face-blind, so I actually didn't realize the person I'd been enjoying as Melina Pendulum was also the Princess Weekes I'd been enjoying in PBS videos. This is a fabulous crossover and I love seeing you feeling more secure and stepping into your awesomeness! 💜
I’m happy somebody with a platform finally said it. Because I’ve never liked SOUL. I found the movie even triggering on certain aspects.
It didn’t feel right.
It felt like them saying the universe even says that Black people should settle. And anybody can walk in our shoes. Anybody has the RIGHT to walk in our shoes.
I walked away feeling hopeless because I’m aware of the real world struggle of what a black person go through. The movie seems to trivialize how our hopes and dreams. As if hoping and dreaming isn’t in defiance of colonization for most Black people.
The message of this movie would’ve been better if the character wasn’t black. Because the nuances of blackness can’t interact with the carefree ability of non-Black people without disrespecting the real life experiences of Black people, even in a cartoon kids movie.
I thought there was a line from Soul by Terry. They said "What, did you think they were born with them?" Referring to the personalities. So when watching I imagined the little souls going into already born babies instead of fetuses in utero. 🤷♀️
I just assumed that Melina was your real name and Princess was your stage name. I feel so stupid.
Awww. ☺️
Same 😅
…also yes
Disney was only interested in retelling the Frog Princess, not telling Tianna's story, which could have been interesting. If they ,"Built Blackness into the bones of the movie"(Soul). my question is why does your black character die in the beginning of the film then? I also utterly loathe the fact that Disney now has a copyright on the word 'Soul'...
A large portion of the film is about what happens after he dies, from his perspective. He's still the perspective character. I don't think that's a fair criticism of the film.
Agree about Disney owning that copyright though. Yuck.
22:15 "OMG!" that was my reaction and the reaction of my brother when I told him that fact. Those creators were beyond sus for this to be their first choice. 😂
Also, thank you sister for the Haïtian 🇭🇹 representation, support, and exposure in this one! Our culture is so often misrepresented, I can't even...
I feel this on a spiritual level. I feel like there's this need felt by some people to defend representation even if it's not so great and made by (mostly) white people. While I can understand wanting to be represented, I don't trust the majority of white creators to get it right even when their intentions are good. I do also have that reaction Princess was describing by just not wanting to even engage sometimes.
There have been times where I've criticised the writing of Asian characters in media and other Asian people in fandom would tear me down and rather defend their white fave creator than examine why I came to the conclusion I did. I think their feeling of being represented by that piece of work made it so they were less willing to see my POV. It was really frustrating because I even had an Asian youtuber with a much bigger audience basically say that my criticisms were "from a white lady being offended on behalf of POC" when bitch, I AM POC?? (And the specific group being misrepresented/shat on). Am I not allowed to criticise the white fave du jour and their work just because their art made some people felt seen? And I'm not going to name the specific fandom (no it's not Raya LMAO), but people there bend over backwards to justify scraps for representation and the actual work has continuously been shitty in terms of its racism in non-subtle ways. Though I'm sure there are others who have similar criticisms as I do, I feel like the critical analysis has been drowned out because the fandom assumes its more progressive than it actually is and gives a pass where a pass is not deserved. Fandom really will demonize marginalized perspectives that don't fit the preferred narrative when actually there are so many different perspectives out there!
Sorry for the mini rant aaaa but this was a really good topic to cover, Princess!
I still disagree and am uncomfortable with how Lindsay went about with her Raya takes. That's as much as I'll say without going into what specifically. However, it was sad to see all of the legit criticisms about the situation got swept underneath all the vitriole. Certain perspectives were weaponized to justify harassment towards Asians who disagreed and it became more about what other shit LE did rather than an examination about how we talk about Asian-inspired media made by white people.
Personally, this was the whole problem with Breadtube to me. They always have knives and quick the cutdown those that don't tow the line. They attack each other more than "right wing" making themselves look like evil they're talking about. It's discourse is so bad now because people are WAY too hardlined. This is in the internet you gotta come in flexible because nobody should just adhear to some monolithic point because they're "told so". Most of us are here on those platform because we wanted to be here.
Trust, I despise white saviors and virtue signalers. I think they're losers, point blank. I been yelled at, attacked by the very people claiming they "NEED TO SAVE ME". Yet they ain't no God or Superman. They're just some loud outta touch prick thinking they know blackness and or other peoples struggle/history because they "studied it" in college.
Yet one thing I did notice is this. "Meh" is the best repersentation, everything doesn't need to be bombastic. When something is *meh* we're getting somewhere because there's a lot of *meh* white leaning content. Now we just need more people from these groups making the meh content that I'll never watch. Since it doesn't have to appeal to me even if it was made for me. That's what the signalers and saviors don't get.
That's unfortunately a consequence of fandoms as a group, even much less controversial shit like ships get blown way the fuck out of proportion, and the people who engage most in their fandom expect that environment to be a purely positive echo chamber that lets them endulge in their love of whatever the fandom is based on.
This way of thinking doesn't come out of nowhere of course, after all it's in the name FANdom, but of course that means that any nuance/critique is completely neutered or met with hostility, these topics are always uncomfortable to talk about, but when you add a beloved franchise in the mix it always gets worse, when having these discussions you have to deal with the fact that you're walking on a mine field, especially if you're from a marginalized group of the fandom, you can try to de escalate it but ultimately some people just don't wanna hear about how their favorite film reinforces negative stereotypes and stigmas against marginalized groups because their emotional attachment to that property is too much, and when you tell them it's problematic they feel attacked because it means that by extension they're also problematic because they support/like that thing.
Im glad you really liked Turning Red because im obsessed with that movie because its an amazing movie but also its a movie where i actually felt that the full embodiment of representation that I have been expected to have with past media (mulan, raya, crazy rich asians etc.). and i hope it shows pixar/disney that theyre going in a better direction by giving ppl like domee shi the opportunity and i hope they give aphton corbin the same kind of chance too, bc clearly theres a lot they need to make up for.
Tecpaocelotl is a name I had since 14 in 2000. The name came from a friend (RIP) who was a fan of Afrika Bambaataa and Zulu Nation. He wanted a brown/indigenous version of that.
Rum, I usually get is from brown owned companies.
The Princess and the Frog, was bad marketing. It felt like they had no idea or just wanted it to fail. I enjoyed it. I feel like they needed to market it differently.
Soul, they just released it on Disney Plus without trying in theaters.
Thank you for this video, it's so pertinent! I must say I've been experiencing Disney fatigue for a while now, it's hard for me to dissociate the pieces of art from the corporation. I absolutely agree that Maïmouna Doucouré deserved better. I feel like the movie was judged based on that one unfortunate promo picture of the dance contest (thanks, netflix) , but not on the movie itself. As a European, I felt like that criticism, especially from people from the USA, was very double standard-y... Where were all those critics when I comes to other shows that are exploitative of children like dance moms, here comes honey boo boo, and all those pageants' shows?
And I miss Lindsay:/ Esmé V.
Hmmm... as a creative, I liked soul for the discussion of passion and how it relates to work, and I kind of accepted the high concept plot as a tradeoff for the slice of life moments and the visuals - but looking back, it was just a slightly better version of inside out (which I didn't like) - it's fine, but structurally, there are many issues with it - and given my background (white european) those relating to black identity flew under my radar, probably because I was the target audience. It's really interesting criticism;
Anyway, it's still super weird that Disney has done so many movies relating to various culture set where those cultures originated, but for black people both are set in majority white america - and the only movie set in africa is all about animals - the only other one about a minority, is turning red, telling a canadian-asian story, and it's the only one where the creator is from that particular background. (I don't include Lilo & stitch but maybe I should add it to the list)
"Upside Down"? You mean "Inside Out"?
@@Ebon_Sean hum,yes.
I liked the thought exercises on both. Inside Out described the complexities of personality creation and puts visuals to really complex psychological/ neurological processes.
Idk- maybe I have taught myself how to look for the essence of the stories and not fully engage with the nuanced realities of race and the implications of representation. I really need to sit with this and do better.
@@happygucci5094 my gripe with inside out is that much of the aventures going on in the middle part of inside, while fun, felt like mostly inconsequential episodes that bring little to the overall stakes of the story- or TBH, the theme. Like the plot would have been better off with just the begininng and the end, and most of the middle carved out.
@@maximeteppe7627 thanks for your response. I guess I tend to overlook the plot weaknesses and focus on what themes- particular mental health and the psychology of children has been introduced into popular discourse. These comments and video has made we aware of a needto evaluate a lot more critically; less passively.
I didn't realize going on that part of this video would be about performative activism in online media criticism spaces (and just overall) but man it's so nice to hear nuanced opinions about these things. I remember about a year ago I had to force myself off twitter because I realized how many of my friends shared these posts with guilt tripping text attached talking about how 'if you don't share you don't care.' Not only is there this drive to have 'the correct' opinion on everything, but there's this idea that, if you don't feel informed enough to talk about it, you still owe the internet some kind of explanation.
Anyway, fantastic video! I was both drawn in by how succinct and passionate your points were, and by how pretty your earrings are.
I almost never comment on youtube but you are honestly so brutally honest it is refreshing. That is rare to see on youtube. It is one of the reasons why I like watching you and other poc youtubers. I just wanted to say I appreciate your channel. You SHOULD shake up the platform with your opinions because your voice matters too.
As a black american woman, I really hate how Tiana spent most of the movie as a frog, I loved her personality but she's wasted potential. They could have made her turn into a frog during the film's climax or just have Naveen just be the frog much like the original book the frog prince. 😡
i'm glad we're finally talking about princess and the frog past the obligatory cheering of representation, i never know how to (or if i even should) talk abt it on a deeper level w my yt friends
one thing that sticks to me (in addition to the animal thing of course) is that tiana was the only princess explicitly told in-narrative that she Has to work hard to acheive her dreams, but because the movie made a point to not actually engage with themes of race beyond aesthetic, that scene isnt showing how black people are forced to perform excelency in order to get what yt ppl get for doing the bare minimum, it's just another scene romanticizing hard work, which a megacorporation like disney is always willing to push
Loved hearing your take on The Princess on the Frog! You catch a lot of nuances and messages that someone like me misses. And it makes me realize how much better the movie could have been. Also, totally agree about Tiana's design, she's GORGEOUS.
The Rayagate thing was sooo dumb. Prior to it happen, the movie had already received a LOT of criticism from the SEA community. No one was praising it as the pinnacle of good representation, or a big step forward for SEA people. It was criticized for the lack of SEA people in the production and in the voice cast, it was criticized for not being available in SEA countries, it was criticized for being inaccurate and for jamming together several SEA cultures rather than picking one or two to focus on... Like, it wasn't hard to find those criticisms if you looked a bit. And like your take on TPatF, the Xiran video really showed how a more culturally-accurate movie could have been better and more interesting.
Disney did the same thing with the Mulan remake, they wanted the PR points for ~representation~ and "cultural accuracy" but didn't actually put in the work to get that. With a lot of these movies, they take a very aesthetic approach to culture: they look at the food and the outfits and the architecture, but not the beliefs or attitudes or histories.
There is even a Polish person in the comments section in one of Xiran's Raya videos that said that imagine Disney treating Poland that way makes me outrageous. Which is understandable. I don't know if Disney has ever have an interest with Eastern European cultures, and Northern and Southern European cultures that don't get much recognition in the Western media that is. If they did, they would either get the Raya or Encanto treatment or somewhere in between.
Well, there is even the possibility for Raya getting a live action remake which is gonna be jaw dropping.
The praise I've seen for Raya is Kirby Araullo's video on Raya, and Rice Squad's video on Raya from what I've seen. Philippe Lazaro did an analysis video on Raya analyzing the cultural aspects and the representation aspects. I'm not saying they are bad. I can understand the need for representation, I get that. But Raya felt like they are doing a diversity checklist and gain diversity points. The next time a western production tackles us, most of the SEA community at the back of our minds(I'm SEA myself) think and ask them are you gonna do this for diversity points?
A high school friend of mine was brought into Pixar ( we grew up not too far from Emeryville), when Soul was in development, as a stand in model/actor for the main character. He said it was a very wonderful experience and he felt the creative team captured everything distinctly, the process touched him deeply and it felt very personal to him, he admitted he wished he could have carried on with the role for the actual film, but knew it needed to go to someone that had more "clout" (as you would say). As for me, I've had friends that have worked for Pixar, and have visited once. The creative teams at Pixar I feel should not be compared exactly to Disney, even if they are "in bed" with them all the way at an administrative level.
I agree with you wholeheartedly!!! I'm in my early 50s so I've watched the racist Disney shit show all my life. I was disgusted by The Princess & the Frog for the same reason I hated SOUL. Both had excellent music but was completely disrespectful to the Black "lead." In Soul, it was great to see authentic Black men & women but they ruined it.
I had to watch this beautifully drawn Black Man while hearing a problematic white chick's voice coming out of his mouth. They kill the Black man 7 minutes into the movie. Make him an animal. Relegate him to the background in his own story. Very troubling. And they somehow never seem to do this when the main characters are white. I wonder why? 🤔😠
Why focus on race? These movies aren't about being a certain race. I'm Latina and, even if I liked that Soul had a black character, because variety, it was the message of the movie that stayed with me. Yes, Joe is black, but before that he's a person in middle of a life crisis that isn't enjoying the little things that make life what it is, and is always waiting for his "real life" to start (something that could happen to a white, latino, asian, whatever person). And I very happily saw how he went on this trip to value his actual situation and also helped another soul to see the beauty in just being alive.
I learned the same in a hard way. I suffered from anorexia nervosa first year of university, and my family felt dissapointed even if all my life I gave my best and won a scholarship for my university studies. I felt so bad that they were doing this to me in one of the most difficult times in my life, that I realised that I was living for their approval and happiness, but after that my life was empty of self love and lots of other things. First, when they made me feel guilty about being sick, I felt that my life had not meaning anymore. I was a total dissapointment, and I wasn't sure that in the future I could work hard enough to give them what they desserved (I mean my family). Then, little by little, I started learning to be kind to myself even if other people weren't, that my existence doesn't need to be validated by anyone but myself, and that I should enjoy my life in the moment, even if I wasn't, and I'm still not, completely mentally stable, instead of always waiting to be better and stuff to fell I have a value.
This took me years, so when I finally watched Soul, it made me cry more than any other Disney movie had. It's a movie I'll never forget and yeah, Encanto was also good, but even if I'm Latina and also had family problems and suffered from generational trauma, Soul's message stays with me more than anything, and helps me lots when I feel like my life isn't valuable the way it is ❤🩹.
So, I kinda get the frustration, but why focus only on the representation, when the message is what's more important?
So would you have liked Soul (or at least not disliked it) if it had a white lead? Genuine question
When talking about the ‘white chick voice’ coming out of his mouth I mean…22 doesn’t have a gender or a race yet. It’s an unborn blue soul.
This reminded me of a discussion I had with a friend before Moana was released (2016). My friend is Kanana Maoli and she had decided not to watch Moana and outright decided that it would not meet her expectations. 1) She believed the pan-polynesian approach to the film would be reductionist because it would erase the complex and diverse cultures that exist within polyneasia. 2) Disney would be comodifying a semblance of her cultural heritage that rightfully belongs to her people. My response to this was 1) even if we are to only look at Disney films with white protagansits, when has Disney ever made a film that accurately depicts a culture/historical setting/etc.?" My point to her was that she had every right to be offended if her culture was not being depicted the way she felt was appropriate but that she needed to at least have fair expectations. (BTW, I think all of the points made here were fair critiques of Princess and the Frog and Soul.) 2) Disney is a business and they are only doing this to make money. The unfortunate side of seeking representation in the mainstream media is that any culture represented will be commodified and altered to appeal to a general audience. As of right now, Moana, Coco, and Encanto have proven that a certain balance can be stuck in regard to these issue but I still think there is an issue that the world seems to hold Disney as the arbitor of recognition. That one has not yet been "seen" until a Disney movie has been made to address their community. Why is Disney given this power and what are the eventual ramifications of allowing them to have this power? I have no answers to these issues. I just hate that capitalism has made corperations the arbitors of culture
I agree, as a German I can tell you I’ve rarely seen anything accurately represented in other countries media about ours, especially not Hollywood. Nearly nothing is that exact in movies and Disney is known to take a lot of freedom in tales.
The big things with Disney, especially now, are 1) the fact that they are the measure of success in the US, 2) children watch their movies--from their cartoons to superheroes, they are usually raised on Disney here--so if you can make a popular Disney movie you can work to change the way those kids see the world, and 3) *they own practically the entire popular film industry/distribution in the US.*
If you make a film with great representation through a smaller studio, like A24, it's seen as a great indie film. But if Disney hires you, it means that the arbiters of the status quo are willing to put money and power behind your message and/or your version of Americanness (agreed, f*ck Capitalism). Art influences the way people think. Not in the immediate "videogames will make kids violent" way, but in ideas of the world and how it works. So when all or most of an art form shows people one version of the world, that version manages to become real (Stamped From the Beginning is a great book to read about that topic, by the way).
We live in this country too. We're Americans. We're human. Yet the companies that have the power to represent "the average American" or even any kind of culture to a US audience continue to see us as foreign/alien (in the case of non-white folks and immigrants), deviant (in the case of LGBTQ+ folks), or broken (in the case of disabled folks) rather than human and complex. This has been the case since before the inception of what would eventually become the USA. In many ways we just want to be seen as normal/average/good without having to perfectly fit into the kind of culture we've all been told is what makes someone an American (for example, WASPy, middle class and pro-Capitalism). Because *that* version of normal has never really existed. There have always been way more people that don't fit that mold than ones who do (TED Ed has a great video on UA-cam about that called something like "What is Normal?").
I would love some anti-trust/anti-monopoly laws to stop these very few companies from controlling all of our art in the US. I'd love those companies to be forced to give ownership to their workers, and the structures reworked to include more diverse voices. I wish most folks could more easily understand that when you see an unfamiliar culture or lifestyle onscreen that's not necessarily how all people of that background are. Since all of that is not currently the case, however, BIPOC people (as well as LGBTQIA folks, disabled folks, women in general, etc) are for now forced to work within that system in order to get anything substantial made.
While answers to the questions you posited are complex, they do exist and have been explained by plenty of historians and art analysts. It's a really cool subject, honestly, though incredibly depressing at times.
as a Māori with roots in Polynesia and a shared cultural association with Maui, i was a bit tense when they announced Moana- for me Maui wasn't a good representation of the character at all, and no offence to The Rock but his haka game is a bit weak. But watching all my little cousins and all the other brown skinned Pacifica in the theatre lit up at seeing themselves and their whānau represented was priceless. The Te Reo Māori version is fire and I watch that version over the english one 100%. i dont think the glaring issues are excusable, in fact in a medium like animation where SO MUCH of production is storyboarding and editing/revising, they shouldnt have these issues. Im a huge animation fan, i love the medium so much, i have big respect for the artists behind these films, but it doesnt excuse the continued pattern of whitewashing things and calling it "disney", either
and we wont mention the maui costume disney put out. Like, his literal skin and tattoos for sale for kids to wear...āue
@@rebeccagibbs4128, just curious, what is you opinion of Lilo and Stitch?
It says so much that I am fully, madly, deeply in love with jazz culture and how it ties into Black culture, but I had exactly 0 interest in watching Soul and heard nothing about it when it came out beyond the criticisms. I think this is one of those films that would have benefited from being a MUSICAL because otherwise jazz just becomes sterile set dressing. I was hoping more for the Gobelins short film "Jazz'in" but I got a disappointing blah of a movie that many Black critics had a lot to say about, and not positively.
That would have been so cool! I love the idea of it being a musical or just integrating music more in general, like having instrumentals in the background.
There's something definitely to be noted about just how much bad discourse originates from Twitter because of Twitter nature. Of course this stuff exists outside of it, but the very gimmick of Twitter means you can't site your sources. That you're not supposed to easily be able to read someone's take then find the context. It supports just passively agreeing with whatever pops up on your feed, then engaging with that contextless tweet with a passion. It's just hell
I also super agree with how prevalent bad faith arguing is. It's crazy just how FAST arguments can turn into an "ends justify the means". Does X bit actually anything to the discussion? No, but it'll help who you're arguing with 'lose'. If you slightly twist someone's straight forward point every single tweet it's eventually a spiral you can pick apart. It's not always nefarious either, but it's bad faith.
Also also there's definitely something to be said about assuming the worse. And I can't blame people who've been hurt for years and decades of ignorance, but the reality is someone can't include the nuance and caveats of EVERY single point of a broad topic. It's not possible, and I think the default reaction to assume it's because of ignorance or malus is something FAR more people struggle (or more conceringly DON'T view it as a struggle) with than people like to admit.
Elon Musk just became the biggest stockholder in Twitter. I say we let it start dying by leaving it to the crappy folks like many did with Facebook.
@@Arosukir6 yes 😅
there was definitely some overblown nonsense around cuties upon release due to its poor marketing. however, having watched the movie, there are some scenes that were simply not okay. while i understand some of the camera panning and so on was intentional to make viewers uncomfortable, there were literally dozens of other ways to do that which didn't involve zooming in on the gyrating hips of children. show reactions of other people in the scene, or show the children's faces while they're dancing, or like... anything f*cking else. i worry about puritanical policing of art as much as the next thoughtful person, but this is not the film to go to bat over. like, i'm not going to say reactions to it were all completely reasonable, but i also hope no one goes seeking it out because as a survivor of csa, it made me feel extremely sick watching a lot of what they deemed acceptable to show a child doing. the right wing reactions to it are ridiculous, but it's not unfair to say that displaying several minutes of literal children in skimpy clothes thrusting their hips while the view we are given as an audience is almost entirely their bodies is not the way to get your message about the sexualization of children across.
That is my problem is how she's essentially saying criticism of Cuties was simply racist and that it's "not inappropriate" when everyone else agrees the way they did it WAS WRONG. I want to like this vid as it has lots of good points but she's a Cuties defender which is VERY SUSPICIOUS
Why tf did she think criticizing Cuties was racist? I swear to god people are reaching…
exactly!!! she really should've worded that part better because she wasn't making any sense lmao
It's creepy how so many animation studios feel black people and animals are interchangeable. I also notice that a lot of black movies aren't allowed to be inspired. Most works featuring black characters are for white audiences and it shows.