Let's Build A Model Steam Engine - Machining a cylinder casting!
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- Опубліковано 21 жов 2024
- This episode on Blondihacks, I'm machining the cylinder casting for my model steam engine! Exclusive videos, drawings, models & plans available on Patreon!
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Hey everyone! A few folks have asked for a direct link to Keith’s video on this topic. Here you go:
ua-cam.com/video/cYeFlDaxMCM/v-deo.html
Also, while I didn’t mention it, it is indeed AvE with the red nose in front. That’s axiomatic so I didn’t state it in the video.
That made me nervous
well clairal has nothing on that.. always love your true life experiences.. we all learn from them..
Thank You, I appreciate the mention }:-)))
@@keithappleton I love your videos, Keith! So many tips and tricks and useful info on building model steam engines.
@@leesoukup8787 I have yet to find out, in that moment when I repeat a mistake seen here, if I will feel _worse_ or better about it. Certainly justification for either case! :P XD
That said, Quinn's videos are entertaining, and very informative... and the errors, actually, are very a important and illustrative part for what to look for and how you might mitigate ... I don't know if I'd have realized immediately if the valve-rod port was the reference for the steam chest floor and top... I'm gonna say 'probably' - but, it's an important example in any case.
I have to say I learn a lot from the oops moments. It shows where things can go pear shaped, as they would undoubtedly do for me.
It’s refreshing to see folks that don’t do it perfect every time, or at least on video. Because you know that everybody makes mistakes. Sure after enough years of experience your mistakes are infrequent, but they still get made. The key part, is when you do, how do you recover. Sharing those recoveries are great teaching moments. Thank you for that.
@@Murgoh it takes a level of confidence in oneself before you can admit to mistakes.
You have to realze some mistakes result in paper weights and be willing to start over.
Nice work 😎 Quin
No such thing as mistakes only *unscheduled chargeable modifications*
The hallmark of a master is the ease and completeness with which they hide their mistakes. Living vicariously through you because I have neither the machines nor the skill to make a steam engine (on my bucket list).
I love your measurement units as well as your ability to recover from when the gremlins attack.
Used to use graphited string as cylinder packing. Bored cylinder in lathe,t hen fitted homemade mandrel to face both ends. If there was enough meat in the castings,then slice off the valve chest, you can see what you're doing with the steam ports, and you will be able to lap in the port face. Cylinder hone, slit in a piece of broomstick, and strip of emery.You're doing a great job of showing this - LBSC would be pleased!
I absolutely love that you share your mistakes so openly. There's so much more to learn when things don't go as perfectly as one wants. When a Keith, a Tom, a Robyn, or a Stefan perfectly executes a project from start to finish, we get to see the way something should be done. However, unless they make a point of explaining what can go wrong and how to fix it if it does, we only get part of the picture. When you encounter a problem, we don't just get a bunch of how, we also get a bit of why as well. That's great.
I have watched most of Kieth’s videos on steam engine building. He is an authority on the subject imho.
The only thing I found that didn’t work was setting up the cylinder bore using the mandrel. My casting bore was so crooked I had to replace it. The next two I indicated off the outside of the casting on the three points to find my center. I then bored to dimension and cut the face in the same set up.
Many model makers use transfer punches and super glue. It works, I use my DRO as much as possible.
Blonde, I enjoy your videos on this subject more than that professional machinist.
You are human, don’t ever change. You are a character. Way better than TV 😃
Great job, simplified where we all can understand it, plus being made aware of potential mistakes to be had!
So I just came over here from Rex Krueger's channel and this is my first video, coz you know, steam engines are cool. What an astonishing amount of very finely toleranced work you're doing. Your comment that you were a mile out on centering that boss was something. You're clearly on the 1mm:1 mile scale. Far out.
I'm gonna say this because I know you'll take it the right way - I love it when you make mistakes. I'm working on a machinist's hammer right now and it's disturbing how often I do some operation and then think "Oh, crap...I should've/shouldn't have/wish I would've done...X instead of Y". The way you handle the mistakes is as instructional as anything else you do.
Thank you so much for leaving your mistakes in! Seeing you solve them is so educational
At the end of the day, you have a part that will both function and look nice. Something you can be proud of and you learned (and taught the rest of us) along the way. I appreciate your efforts!
Thanks for the honesty of your warts n all videos. It makes me much happier to know that the gremlins aren’t just after me. My pa always said, “if it can go wrnog son, it probably will!” He wasn’t wrong either.
The bucket list has another scratched-out entry. By the end of an hour, I'd be a shell-shocked mess working on this project. Hell, I'm a mess just watching *you* do it!
Hi Blondie, that was a bum clenching video, it was like walking on thin ice all the way; I felt your pain. 10/10 for perseverance though. As consolation, castings are always a pain in the butt to start and professional engineers are well paid because it requires a lot of experience to make it easy! Especially one of jobs.
You got there though so well done.
Great to see another approach used here, especially with the cast boss used as a reference feature, it makes centring on the gland nut all the more obvious thanks for sharing
Outstanding work! Hurray for you! There are a lot of videos out there but I put my money on you any day. It's so easy to relate to you.
Great video as always,
It’s great that you not only show your bloopers but also take time to explain them and give a little lessons learned conclusion.
I would just like to put in a word of defence for any of the draughtsmen that may watch your videos.!
Before anyone goes picking holes in drawings they should put themselves in the shoes of a draughtsman! His job is not an easy one, it is not simply throwing together some random drawings showing what the part should look like and how big it should be. His job is to take a figment of the design engineers imagination and from that, create a comprehensive set of instructions that allow an unknown machinist, to create a fully functional finished component exactly as the design engineer intended and his only tool to do so is a set of pictures!
Those lines and dimensions he puts on paper are not just a representation of the physical size and shape of the part, they also explain the relationships and interactions of the features critical to its function. The dimensions not only state the size, position and accuracy of the features, but their placement on the paper in relation to the features also dictates the sequence in which they should be created in order for the finished component to function as the engineer intended. Learning how to read engineering drawings correctly and understand the design intent that they convey is as important a skill to the machinist as operating the equipment itself and with the best will in the world, the draughtsman cannot be held responsible for the machinists ability to follow the drawing.
Always take the time to read, digest and understand the design intent of the drawing before committing to machining the part. If the drawing seems little bit quirky or the method of dimensioning doesn’t at first make sense, then it’s more than likely been done that way deliberately to encourage a particular sequence of manufacture critical to the success of the part. Of course sometimes there are genuine mistakes 😉. Keep up the good work 👍
So you had a lot of fun doing it , well I had a great deal of fun watching you. Thank you, informative as ever and good to know that even the clever ones screw up occasionally ! 😁
Great work!
In regard to honing. Basically everything you said is correct in its own context. And that is often the issue.
The finish and crosshatch angle will depend on what ring (or seal) material you have, ring design, application. Most certainly the grooves are used to retain oil and bed rings in. And the angles you were talking about are within normal range.
One point about honing technique is to give a few short strokes each end every so often, as you pass the middle twice as much at the ends and if you're not careful you'll end up with the centre being oversize.
Diesel engine tech here. Cross hatching is most definitely still used in modern engines. It is mostly for oil control. You can't have a polished cylinder wall (in diesel engines at least, can't speak for steam) or you will burn oil excessively. You have to have a film of oil on the cylinder wall, and having the microscopic peaks and valleys gives the oil a place to go when the oil control ring on the piston goes past. The oil helps keep the cylinder wall cool, and helps keep soot from sticking. Spray paint over water droplets and see what happens. Rebuilt many engines that had oil consumption problems due to polished cylinder liners.
Steam engines don't really use that technique because the lubrication is carried in the steam itself. Wherever the steam goes, the steam oil goes.
great job with the problem solving along the way. Hopefully it all works out in the end.
A lot of fun for all of us. Thanks for sharing. 👍👍😎👍👍
As a longtime Keith Appleton fan (found him through my love and admiration of the Hammond B3, oddly enough, not machining) I can say that this episode was pleasing on so many levels. I love this section of every model steam construction, as there are sooo many things that come together in one place. I love this project, and I'm so glad you are doing the series. Thank you!
This miniserie is awsome!
I’m really looking forward to you first ride to the shops on your steam engine once it is finished. Keep up the great work.
THANK YOU...for sharing. Your casting cylinder came out really nice. Fantastic job.
Thats a very compact rattle gun beung used on those steamchest screws :P thanks for always showing us all all your little tricks Quinn :)
The person who doesn't make mistakes doesn't make anything.
An engineer can rectify there mistakes without anyone finding out.
BS, engineers don't find their mistakes, The technician in the field finds and fixes them.
@@rjkee5157 the engineers at my shop have the bonus perk of blaming you for their mistakes .... I count myself as a fair machinist, but for the life of me, I can't make a 1.500 +.0003 rotor fit (and rotate) in a 1.498-.0003 bore lol
@@rjkee5157 hi I'm 59 years old, served my time as a toolmaker on leaving school ,now a field service engineer and will make mistakes till I retire.
@@rjkee5157 To be fair, it's often the operators that find the mistakes... or at least find they exist. We just get to pin them on the engineer once in a while. Often enough it was just someone cutting corners during the build...
Such an incredible work! Congratulations and thanks for share your knowledge!!!
Expanding... expanding mandrel!? DAMN IT QUINN! Are you making me buy more shit again?
the bad thing when machining is once you start excepting modifications to one part it could bite you several steps later effecting 6 parts, the good thing is catching things early and it can award you with a good final product and experience.
Nice save! Good job! It doesn't matter what tools you used or your method.
What matters is the end result.
JIM
Man, I love it when a plan comes together!
Wow, good time to catch up on youtube. More steam engine! Capitalize on Abombs vacation
"I'm gonna buy my way out of this problem". So many times the labor/fun ration demands this approach.
One thing I find is that castings have no easily recognisable features and are just amorphous blobs. So after a clean up with a file I mark out every feature with dyfken blue including arrows to mark direction and any other important information. It’s like when a surgeon comes round before an operation and marks out which leg is to be cut off while the patient is awake to make sure he gets the correct one. Steve
Quinn, thank you for sharing this build, including "oopses," and how you either corrected or worked around them. I _really_ think that I need to order one of these kits! ;)
And this is why i love your channel!! We all make mistakes...thats how we learn. Happy machining!!
You work through issues the same as us regular folk would. Love it. Keep it up and thank you for being real.
I look forward to your videos each week. Keep up the great work.
Beautiful. I had no idea it was that finicky.
Great segment, loved your adaptations. If you fixed it, you didn't make a mistake, you made an upgrade enhancement or an undocumented feature.
Hello, I'm gradually watching you videos for beginners they are really very good and explain things very clearly and don't miss out steps which is easy to do when you get more experienced with things- so thank you!
I was wondering whether you could advise the order of things if the cylinder did not have a bore cast to start i.e. you are starting with a solid casting? Would you face off port face and sides and then drill/ream/bore? Thanks!
Hey Quinn! Just wanted to say thank you for uploading your vids. I'm loving this series and I'm not even a machinist! I just found you because UA-cam algorithm works decently enough apparently. You're honestly the channel with which I'm learning the most about machining, so thanks for that :)
Yes, I’m having a lot of fun and a lot of learning.
That was fun!
It's so difficult even following someone else's not completely clear instructions, that designing your own is a huge opportunity for nonstop tears. Very nice job recovering from a lot of unexpected problems. Drilling those angled steam passages is so wretched and stressful.
Well that was a roller coaster of emotions from start to finish! 😁
I made a wooden block the size of the cylinder. Drilled holes where the ports would be in the valve chest. Adjusted the vise angle for the passages to the cylinder. Then drilled
thru to the valve chest ports to confirm the angle was correct. If I missed, I just made another test block instead damaging the cylinder. Eventually got it right and didn't screw up
the cylinder. Crude but but it worked. Just a thought.
Lots of good learning here. When I screw up I am reminded of the saying, "There's a right way, a wrong way, and there's your way which is wrong but takes twice as long".
Another great job. Everyone has a different way to do it. Do it your way.
Jeeze, who knew that steam engines were so complicated and finicky? I thought they were just a kettle of boiling water connected to a hollowed-out log or something. Kudos to the 19th century!
Great video, by the way. I loved your 5-40 impact driver.
One caution I would offer is that the core that is used to make the cylinder bore will sometimes "float" in the casting causing the bore to be at an angle to the rest of the casting. This is a particular issue when using a mandrel to center the bore, you are actually making the rest of the casting be at an angle.
Yah, my casting is a wee bit crooked in the end, but Keith has done dozens of these and I had done zero until now, so I figured I could do a lot worse than follow him! His engines all run very nice.
A good thing to do with castings is prescribe surfaces. Blue up all locations to be machined. Then set it on a v block or other device. Snug it down and then scribe c/L of bore and all measurements on all sides from C/L. DO this on perpendicular axis by aligning scribe points to surface
I have been watching this from the very first video and love your approach and honesty when an error occurs. Thinking through an error and coming up with a plan intrigues me. There is another machinist making this exact same model (I won't name him) and his approach is totally different. I find the contrast interesting even though your presentation style is by far my favorite. Keep going, I am excited to see this thing run (I wonder if Mr. Pete is following this, he has a lot of interest in steam engine models and is such a fun guy to watch as well).
Hi Quinn,
A good video... and some good progress made... I look forward to the next one in this series.
Take care
Paul,,
Hi Blondihacks,
Another great video. thanks.
When you were setting up the cylinder in the 4 jaw chuck using copper shims and centering the bore, would it have been a good idea to check along the length of the mandrel for parallel with the indicator, to ensure that the axis of the cylinder was parallel with the lathe?
As it may only have been centered at the point that you were indicating at, yet it ran out of parallel..
This steam engine series is just great! :)
As usual great video, keep up the good work. Don’t forget, the only people that don’t make mistakes are those that do sod all work
I finally found the time to watch the entire video. Excellent work Blondi. Yes I know you made some regrettable errors, but that's why I watch these things. Those will be at least a few errors I won't repeat but probably would have made myself had it not been for your misfortune. So thanks for sharing your reality and not editing out all the mistakes. Thankfully you were able to recover from all of them thus far.
I have a slightly different model it's the PM Research #5 also known as the "Coke Bottle" model. The cylinder on my model is slightly different. Very similar, but instead of having 2 input ports at 20 degrees for each side of the cylinder mine is showing just one port on each side that actually runs exactly parallel to the cylinder. So I apparently I won't need the 20 degree set-up. Other than this slight difference most other operations appear to be the same.
I like the Keith Appleton method using a homemade arbor to set up the cylinder bore in the center of the 4-jaw chuck. I'll probably use that method as well. This will be my first attempt to machine one of these kits so I hope it is a success. I'm going to try to make videos of it when I do it. Succeed or fail, I'll publish the videos either way when I do it. Unfortunately I don't have very good cameras so I'm not sure how good the videos will be, only time will tell.
But I just wanted to thank you for sharing your first steam engine build. I'm looking forward to starting in on mine.
The pink tool cabinet! I need it!
Allen Millyard is the rising star of the youtube garage machinists, deserves to be in that cadre.
The 45° pattern on the honing may be to prevent the introduction of steps on the cylinder wall if the hone is moved in discrete increments down the length of the bore. That's what a mechanic told me before my first DIY break job on drum breaks on the family farm truck a long time ago. So that's what I always did and it worked.
Rereplay? Mike Holmes would admire your efficiency in knocking down the fourth wall!
Hey Quinn, thanks for making these. I've finally started building my new workshop. New lathe in a box. Very excited. It's not quite as big as your lathe.
Starting to think maybe I should make a small marine engine....... Hmmmmm
If they would have dimensioned the edge of the steam chest to the center of the cylinder bore, it would have made things a lot more clear!
As far as cylinder honing, in gas engines anyway, if you are rebuilding an engine and don't hone the cylinders to give them a new cross hatch, the rings won't seat and you will get blow by. On a miniature steam engine, I can't imagine it mattering as the forces are so low, I don't think it would matter. With a rubber o-ring, I would think you would want the surface as polished as possible to avoid abrading the o-ring.
Yes this was my thought also. For soft rings like silicone or Teflon, smooth makes more sense
I repair hydraulic cylinders. You want a honed surface. It seals better and catches oil to keep the seal lubricated. We always follow the stones with scotch brite pads. For a small bore like this using a break hone you could wrap it with 320 Emery cloth. To be clear the spec surface finish on hydraulic cylinders is 8 to 16 RA.
Like your pink toolbox !
"...and Stephan and TOT ..."
You're all do a great work! :D
At 15:26, there are three dimensions of two sets of features (hole pattern and floor of the steam chest) spread across two drawing views. This is an over-constraint and bad drawing practice. If a third dimension in this case had to be given (if the draughtsman felt strongly enough about it) then one of them should have been given as a reference dimension; which means it is there for reference purposes to aid manufacturing, rather than being a dimension to inspect the part against. 🤓 just my two pennies’ worth...
I learned "machine work" by working into the profession, a year of machine work in high school. The math was something I learned on my own, as it wasn't available to me at the time, my high school was "academic focused" not much opportunity for "life skills learning". Your statement clarified something I've known for decades, but never put it to words. Few even speak of "proper drafting standards" in drawings, too much emphasis on "software engineering". I still work to "paper dimensions, paper standards" and with the failures that have come, have little desire to know more of the "on-line, new standards" that all depend on well functioning technology soon to end.
Yay! It's Blondihacks time!! (Maybe I should start commenting something else... hahaha)
Thanks Quinn
I used to part off a lot of long parts that we could not afford to drop. We used that "manual yahtzee" technique all day long.
Nice work Quinn 👍😁👍. Looks like a pretty tricky part. Rough castings can indeed be tough to indicate. At least the drawing wasn't in Mesopotamian cubits. Not sure it there's a conversion for kjt's 🤣. Thanks for sharing, cheers!
Chris
They way you said one line really cracked me up. I envision it as a confusing insult: "You '... gland-packing nut-boss!'"
whenever i heard anyone talk about honing a bore they always wanted as glass like as they could get ... so I have always gone for smoother the better ... it makes sense ... less friction less fatigue from stress longer wear longer use ...
The modifications to save the cylinder reminded me of the late 60's and early 70's working on my MoPars (Chrysler products).
Per the manual, an engine bore could be to spec or 2 thou over from the factory. Crankshaft also could be to spec, 1 thou under, or 10 thou under. The Ford and Chevy people really made fun of that, but I personally never ran across one of the oddballs. They used to say Walter Chrysler's company never threw anything away. Engine codes had all the info.
Quinn, your engine will probably work about as well as all those built to less rigorous limits. All those individuals getting by without milling machines but with files and various other manual tools knew something about getting machines to function with whatever was available and affordable.
Coming along very nicely on a job I would not start. Normally Mr Bozo lives in my shop but he has evidently got a way to get into Canada virus lockdown or not.
Good to see you haven't run in to any imperfections in the casting. I used to work in oil field machine shops and working with castings for the standard 2" x 5klb valves, sand pockets and "inclusions" at times seemed to be the rule of the day. :)
These castings have been really nice! I’ve had very little to complain about.
OldPUP especially in both bores of a compound cylinder block!
@@lenroddis5933 Heck, depending on the "inclusion" it can also destroy tooling. Been there and done that. Had to grind them out many a time. Sometimes weld them up and re-machine as well. Weather an in inclusion or sand pocket, neither are fun when you run in to one. :)
When I was a young lad my parents would drive down the freeway through an industrial area around Oakland, CA. There was a sign I'd look for every time we went that way and it had a crucifx and the words "Stop Casting Porosity". Being young and innocent I thought it was some sort of admonition about being a better person (see 'casting aspersions'). It wasn't until decades later that I found out it was some sort of company that made chemicals and gear to sell to casting companies. Noun, verb, eh.
@@tonydibenedetto8735 the castings in these model engine parts are very porous, you just can't tell unless you know what to look for.
I like the vac she uses to clean up chips.
So we went up to the site with the fire escape we had just spent 3 weeks fabricating in the shop bang on to the drawings. Offers it up, crane and all on hire for 1 day only. The stair is half a rise short, we phones the yard. The 'technical manager' says we didn't make it right, we said 'we made it to your drawing' he said 'the drawing is just a guide'.
My experience with cylinder hones is honing the bores of brake master and wheel cylinders and honing engine cylinder bores. As I remember, the basic reason for honing was to obtain smoother bores than would otherwise occur. A crosshatch pattern occurs naturally and may help, probably doesn't hurt but smooth bores are definitely desireable..
Think you doing a good job with the Little Engine. I wouldn't worry about any mistakes unless I was making it for a paying customer. I try my best to study the plans before the build & still make mistakes.
Sometimes it's not you: I've seen mistakes in plan as well. Always give myself wiggle room & I'm not necessarily sticking with the plans, unless it's for a paying customer. The beauty about Machining: we all have our own style & to be totally honest I would build it totally different than what you or anyone else I've seen build this little engine.
I’ve built many Stuart Turner engines and believe me, there are definitely makes in plans at times. Experience tells you which parts you can make first and which parts you better wait on until later. Same with drilling holes.
@@kgee2111 Steam engine really not my style, unless I find one that i would like as a display.
I haven't build any steam engine yet, watching the build is making me want to; I'm impressed that a woman want to take on Machining!
As more and more women do things like this you can't say it's a man's world anymore.
So many times we use our strength/money to control; I Envision a day of equilibrium truly freedom of choice, not of necessity!
To all the females who want to do Foundry etc work,.... welcome to the family.
Crosshatching is still used on modern engines and yes it helps to retain oil. The only thing that has really changed is the finished surface of the cylinder is much smoother than it used to be. One reason is because the ring tension on modern engines is less than it was a few years ago so a lower RA finish helps the rings to seat in faster with less wear. Years ago you could hone with one stone, I.e. 220 grit and call it good. Now one common process is to bore within .003-.004 of finished size then plateau hone with .220 then .280. and finish with 400 or a brush pass. If you are using diamond stones the grit choices are different.
Sign of a good machinist... oops recovery. If anyone asked, just tell them the cover is on the other side because you didn't want to be like everyone else. :)
You didn't mention Mr. Pete! Yeah, his videos don't talk about machining much anymore but he was the first and some of his very early videos (a decade or more ago) were packed with good machining tips.
I’m a big fan of Mr Pete too. I have a photo of us together. 😀
Excellent work!! Well done.
I really appreciate your metrology jokes.
I’m glad they measure up!
I did exactly the same mistake on my cylinder valve depth. Definitely an easy one to get wrong from the drawing. Wish I watched your video before making the same mistake.
I always dreamed of making a "big" steam engine, but I am so scared of not being able to get the machining right. It's not so much the money but more the potential disappointed in the process. I'm a car mechanic now design engineer but that still didn't teach me how to machine things on that level. Looking for information, Forums are disencouraging with their pro vibe - one gets the feeling it can't be done if you don't have the same experience and kit. Same with watching the You Tube machinists - despite them presenting it very lightly it is clear that they have a lot of tricks up the sleeve that you won't have - standing alone in front of a machine f§$%& it up.
Long story short - I absolutely love the fact you are sharing this experience and explaining your thoughts on the way - thank you so much! I feel like making a start now!
You can sit there and dream about things all you want, or you can start small and practicing until you get to the point where you can do it. The key is to not jump in head first to an expensive complicated poorly designed kit with lots of cast parts.
Great videos. Question on the steam chest cover plate - would it be worth spot-facing the holes? It will help the shoulders of the screws to sit flush with the face rather than on the high spots of the rough casting and will help to prevent the screws vibrating loose when the engine is running.
I considered it, but there wasn’t enough material on the little bosses. The drawing said nothing on the subject, so I decided not to.
Something you probably should mention, the spring loaded hone will bell mouth the ends of cylinder if you allow the stones to come out too far either end. The pivot should always be at least 3~5mm inside cylinder. (around 1/8"~3/16")
They also have a maximum rpm, usually difficult to find ranges for smaller hones though.
Cordless drill is easiest way to use them although I have a high torque 400rom drill motor to use with hones. (more to do with centrifugal loading than stone breaking up)
Some sort of cutting fluid would also be a good idea as the stones will clog very easily on cast iron.(good if you want a polished finish, not so great for oil retention on automotive applications)
It is possible to true up a cylinder with a spring hone but it isn't easy.
Modern automotive cylinders are still honed but using diamond or CBN when manufactured (unless something major has occurred in last few years?)
Love your channel, I'm also working on this engine in my spare time. I think you should double check your 3/8" port width, they appear to be 3/8" arc center to arc center instead of 3/8" overall width, also on the 1/8" deep 1/4" drill depth, this normally means to the drill corner not the point. That said I'm liking this build! Keep up the good work!
I know, I did that wrong. Doesn’t matter, it still works
Thanksgiving is over "reindeer" joke is now officially funny.
Lol.
You know, if I'd made those bone head mistakes, I'd be so pissed at myself that i'd just have chalked it up to a learning experience, and ordered a new casting (or the whole set if necessary) and started it all over again, this time doing it right.
Quinn, quite simply' you are very good.
Thanks for sharing