Without religion what do we have to hold us together? Morality. Dassit. If you can’t be a decent person without religion then you weren’t a decent person to begin with.
I think in this context he's talking about community, and as any atheist can tell you - it's pretty much impossible to build a sustainable community around vaguely similar desires to be "good" people. 🤷♂️
@@elijahcumpton9926 "it's pretty much impossible to build a sustainable community around vaguely similar desires to be "good" people. " Um, we call them societies. And I reject the notion churches are currently filling that void. Replace "good people" with "hateful, bigoted, spiteful, delusional, lying, and ignorant people," and you might have a point.
@@thunderpooch Only the rulers with hidden agendas like serving the wealthy. This is why the quote's been true for so long, the church was the greatest source of wealth for centuries.
@@lorraineclark4413Agreed. Sadly, my country is just too dumb, arrogant, and proud of it to manage that very necessary fight, even as our democracy is at risk from these fundie nutjobs.
The government has snap for poor people. Food banks are fake charities for people to get rid of expired food and feel self righteous doing so and churches to have something to brag about.
"Christianity started out in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise." ~Sam Pascoe
You are basically defining American religion as evangelicals...they are the ones who hate the rest of us. Catholics, Jews, and others, they are not giving out this message of 'if you're not one of us, you're nothing.'
@@julianmarsh1378 Religions have rules, written or unwritten, to be followed to be an accepted member of that religion. You accept those rules and you’re set up with your chosen group.
@@julianmarsh1378 wrong. As a jew, I can tell you that is incorrect. Jews may not say that, buteven semi-religious jews consistently place themselves above others, even jews. And I am not even going to get into christians and their whackadoo ideas about god and jesus winning football games and making you have that baby
Pretty sure what has been tearing us apart is everyone fighting over their religious beliefs. Been a Christian for 23 years but I'm no fool. Watching the evangelicals in america behave the way they do is making me realize how little I have in common with a large section of Christians in my country. A lot of talk the talk and then the walk is quite the opposite.
Feign contempt for evangelicals all you want, but your core religious belief is that your unquestionable diety is completely faultless for willfully tormenting and burning anyone that doesn't praise him
Your "real Christianity doesn't support injustice" stance is absolutely battered by any real historical study of the role of Christianity in society. I appreciate that you see the hypocrisy in the ways others practice, but if you think all that's needed is a "return to roots", you're deluding yourself. If you can't recognize that your foundational texts are not God's blinding truth but a loose collection of semi-effective rules for (unjust) social cohesion written by people for whom the birth of a mutated sheep meant it was time to burn anyone they didn't like as a witch, and therefore that said texts may contain some room for improvement, you're not going to make any progress.
As brilliant as some portions of the Bible can be, you will know a tree by the fruit that it bears. At least in America, Christianity does not remotely achieve the results that its texts would suggest.
Not correct. It was the gutting of the middle class by Reagan. Many more people don't feel they have a stake in the society. This process got worse under successive governments
@@DEAR7340 the text doesn't suggest anything. The bible can be used to buttress any belief. It has been for hundreds of years. The pilgrims in 1611 wanted to create a society where there would be no dissent, tolerance didn't enter into it
“The rise of the unaffiliated is actually really troubling.” Replace that with ANY other religious group and that statement is considered unacceptable. Significant double standard with how the unaffiliated are treated.
@@richardwhaler8717 athiesm is not a religion as religions require faith. Athiest are just those that recognize the CONJOB that religion has been since its inception, and the same stories are retold over and over... Since the beginning it was a way to "other" people...and a way to literally steal your lifetime away. So many have been conned out of their life by the "promise of everlasting life in heaven" that they sacrifice their happiness or life itself. To exploit the lives of others and control peoples thoughts is evil. I think ot should be legal to beat down aggressive religious panhandling
I absolutely agree on your point. However, there must be exceptions. I live in Canada, and there are way too many churches in my area. The one across the street from my house has an incredibly diverse congregation. As a life-long atheist, I was shocked to witness it. Although I heard from the people who sold me this house that the church is run by bad people, I've never had any problems, and they've never knocked on my door to tell me the "good news".
Sunday mornings are the most financially segregated, too. Megachurches especially generally don't have many poor members, and neither do their smaller wealthy counterparts.
@Derek Lowe Pariah Deplorables reap what they sow when they're deservedly ostracized, but they're so silly playing professional victims they're ridiculous beyond measure.
I was a dedicated church goer, but was exhausted by hearing conspiracy theories from congregants and the pulpit. My principles won’t allow me to vote for this generation of Republicans.
I'd like to think it's because people are waking up to the delusion of religion. But I fear it's because they're going Flat Earth or "Q" instead. I hope I'm wrong.
bullsh*t, if you were dedicated like you say, you wouldn't be a "Church Goer", vague on the conspiracies, and most come true anyway, not all Republicans are wacked out bible thumpers, the same as not all Liberals aren't all baby killers and living the illusion that a man can give birth . next time you have some free time, change your name, it doesn't suit your principles
I agree totally with that. Anyone that supports Trump and republikkklans are not religious. They are the total opposite of religious. They just don't know it.
I think the hypocritical, non-accepting people who don't engage in critical thinking would be pretty much the same with or without religion. Though you would remove a tool people can use to control others: "Do as I say God says, or you'll burn. Afflict as I say God says, or they'll burn." - so at least that's something.
Every church I've ever been in has been pro-education, pro-human rights, pro-other religions. The point of faith is the transformation of the self toward greater kindness and generosity and society to greater equity and justice. That does not happen without critical thinking. I'm sorry that the religious people you've met were the self-righteous tools.
In the recent past, nonreligious/nones were a self-selected group of open minded people. As religion dies out for the rest (which is what has been happening over the past ten years or so) the rise of tribalism based on race/ethnicity, political affiliation, language, etc. will just replace religion. Prejudiced bullies do not change their stripes just because they stopped believing in God. If anything, they actually behave worse because they will not have the threat of divine punishment holding them back anymore.
I grew up devoutly Mormon and only left the church about 10 years ago, but being an 'active congregant' involved about 20 hours of attendance per week. (The regular 3 hour Sunday service was only the beginning--there were 'supplemental' meetings pretty much every day of the week.) I remember when the pandemic started and my mom called to say they weren't holding services in the building and I thought "If this goes on for more than a month or two, several millions of Mormons are gonna realise how much 'free time' they suddenly have and they're not gonna be willing to go back to that lifestyle." The sooner America can shake off its self-righteous shackles, the better off we'll all be. Religious zealotry is a plague and nothing more than systematized Narcissism.
My impression is that they didn’t reduce meetings much. They came to visit my long inactive 90 year old father a couple times before there was a vaccine available. My dad’s best friend, who was still active in the church, died of COVID.
@@DARWINZOO Turns out I'm homeless and in the ER for Thanksgiving, so I'm drowning myself in UA-cam :P My instagram doesn't work since i don't know my password anymore so I don't see you much!
The “expert social scientist” at the end saying he’s a pastor very much explained his stance on this topic. Of course he’s worried. His life’s work and purpose is up for elimination. Good luck Pal. The vail of secrets behind the machine that is religion has been lifted. Why does the church have to do the social services that the state should be doing? So they can gain tax exemption for their “non profit”. All his arguments are null and void. As a defected catholic, I’m proud of my fellow Americans seeing the light and realizing it’s all a lie to keep you dedicated and obedient.
Yes and no. There are actually a lot of non-religious social scientists that share this view for the point that Mike brought up about charity. Churches supplement America's social safety net so there is a real concern in sociology about what would happen to the poor of the US if the church system fails and there is not a government system to replace it. A lot of people would suddenly be going hungry and/or have no shelter. Of course, there is a huge darkside to religion as well and Burge has his own biases but he is mostly repeating viewpoints that most social scientists share. They could have talked to Phil Zuckerman (an atheist social scientists who has published numerous books) and he would have told them very similar things. I'm a recovering Catholic too but as someone who is sociologist as well I recognize that religion as an institution does play an important role in people's lives beyond the (questionable) beliefs it imparts on people.
@@nicsnort As mentioned in the post you are replying to, the fact that there is the NEED to fil the gaps is the issue, there should not be that need at all. Because charities all they do is perpetuate a problem and not solve it. Take all the money the churches make and invest in UBI, Social programs and then tell me that there is a need for charity. Charities are like Paracetamol, yes it minimises the pain if the pain is a passing one, it does not solve your chronical illness.
@@Ketraar I don't deny that nor implied that portion of OP's post. I was responding to OP's insinuation of bias because of Burge's religious affiliation. The quotations around Burge's expert status and calling his arguments null and void because of his religious affiliation were unnecessary. I simply pointed out that Burge's statements were in line with secular researchers.
@@nicsnort Right I understood that they were void because of the premise that the churches would be the only ones able to do it and if they didn't exist somehow our society would stop caring for those people. The expertise is indeed questionable considering the affiliations, but then any expertise can be questioned considering the premise. I will have a very hard time trusting a pastor saying the only reason why we help people in need is because his institution does it, that's just a normal reaction to have from a sceptic stance. Then if we dive deeper in to why these institutions are often at the centre of the help it gets clear fast that its due to less noble reasons, in fact often the same institution is/was the cause that created said need, which was the OPs point.
"Without religion what do we have to hold us together?" Our highly evolved sense of morality, empathy and compassion. Our innate need for social interaction and connection, our intelligence and pursuit of knowledge and our species unique ability for altruism and capacity for love. ❤That's what.
@Diao "Yeah but the problem throughout history is that many people don't have a highly evolved sense of empathy or compassion and those who are more poorly educated tend to lack that kind of sense of compassion" That's a rather big pile of bull excrement. By default humans are cooperative and empathic, we need that for survival, even with rivals we tend to care. And saying that poorly educated are less compassionate is the most wrong thing I read in a long time, in fact my experience has been to the exact contrary.
_"Without religion, we have one less thing to fight over."_ Sadly, people will fight over anything. Toilet paper, mask mandates, just to name a few. "You have to wear clothes in public for common decency." = _Ok, we should all do that!_ "You have to wear a mask in public to reduce the spread of a deadly virus." = _Noooo! My freedoms have been violated!_ Go figure! 🙄
One Sunday, when I was about 18, when I got home from church, my older sister asked me if I really believed that stuff. I thought for a minute and then said "No, not really". She then asked why I went church, I said "I guess because I always have". That was the last time I went to church!
I'm not sure which alternate reality those guys were talking about where church is a safe space for different views. Sunday morning is and has always been the most racially and culturally segregated day of the week.
Exactly. And a sermon is definitely more of a lecture on how to be better church-goers, rather than a sharing of ideas on how we can work together to be better.
The atheist group I belonged to in Oklahoma does a lot of charity work. Everthing from food banks to disaster relief. As well as blood dives and voter registration drives. Any group can do it, they don't have to be religious.
I fully respect what you do. What details we differ on we can discuss (in friendship) while we help the real people.The hungry, the helpless, confused, addicted, threatened, abused, and afraid. They don't need social workers, police thugs, political hacks, and other intellectual bench warmers to interfere. They actually pass laws saying we can't give out even sandwiches without a permit, photo ops, and palm-grease. Ugh. Feeding people: not hard. Beauraucracy: let's make it hard.
How did you come to organize an atheist group in the first place. I'm an atheist, but would never consider socializing with people that had that singular proclamation as the binding reason to gather. I'm not anti social or a closet atheist. I've been a member of service organizations.
@@cdjhyoung personally, I don't. I'm not an atheist but I have difficulty with organized religion. Too much talk, too many pointing fingers. I find people others consider wierd. Because I'm wierd. Who wants to be boring normal. Pretty soon there's too many of us to call names. If any of us has injuries or allergies or any of that we stick together. Everyone has some kind of talent. Even the sickliest ones can play music or work a computer or something. Then after a while everyone is getting what they need. It works out. The one basic rule: treat your neighbor as you would be treated yourself. (Mark 12:31)
@@rjonboy7608 Unfortunately, part of this has come about from people suing. There have been the Less Fortunate who have gotten sick on stuff, and then they sue people. Then again other times it's BS. ALSO: Even as a LIberal Christian I know that Churches frequently don't do enough to help The Poor as they're supposed to. Certainly NOT the Mega Churches which can help the most. An certainly NOT most of the Big Names in Politics. There's been people who have LITERALLY said, "I hate Christians, but you're an exception." With the Growing Politicization of Churches, has come about a lesser focus on helping others is a problem I have seen. An frankly, I don't care WHAT Religion someone does or does no have, as long as they're trying to be good people, an help others. There's NOTHING in The Bible that would say "Oh how DARE non-Christians set up things to help those in need", or even working with Non-Chrsitian Groups to do so.
I understand when he says he's worried that without organized religion there wouldn't be food pantries & other outreach but as a "none" (or agnostic) I donate my time & try to volunteer when I can. I know other nones who do so as well.
It also ignores that there's humanist and atheist groups that also do events, not even just operating as individuals - the Atheist Community of Austin runs charity drives, hosts multiple weekly call-in shows talking about everything from skepticism to sexuality, and tries to connect like-minded folks. He says people are turning away from belonging, but that's just because he hitched his horse to a magic wagon that doesn't make logical sense. We've got community, it just doesn't look like he expects it to.
In my personal experience, the "nones" are much more likely to volunteer their time, money, or other resources to help their community or those in need. I think it may be because the religious get the feeling that they are contributing their "thoughts and prayers" and believe that God will handle things from there. While us "nones" believe if something needs to be done, sitting around thinking positive thoughts alone will not accomplish anything. Somehow people have this incredibly incorrect opinion that only religious groups care about helping those in need. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Us nones do this because we want to be deccent people while we are alive, we are not doing because of some vague promise of reward when we die. There is alot of us out there we need to start flexing that power.
A homeless looking man walked up to a congregation before church. He asked for some help in the way of money for food. He was shunned. Imagine their surprise when he appeared behind the pulpit. He was their new pastor. He admonished them and sent them home without a service that day and told them to reflect on their behaviour. True story.
It's a little annoying that "none" is phonetically similar to "nun".... Also, if the far-right hadn't spent the last few decades co-opting Christianity, maybe so many moderate and left-leaning people wouldn't have been pushed out to become "spiritual but not religious" type nones.
The Far-right has combined with the the Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians, and that's the real problem. The combination of authoritarian and fascist doctrines has created a plague within the body politic. Individually they are small minorities, but together you get this 25-30 percent that are followers of Trump. He's just milking them for money, great grift on his part. I left the church for multiple reasons but the biggest was the Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians who invaded my local church. It even caused my parents to leave the church, and they were devout.
I feel like this ignores how many people are "Nones" cause of religious trauma or less intense simply hated it as a kid and don't want their kids to go through that
Entirely too few people are familiar with the idea of 'religious trauma,' and even more should ask, "if it's such a good thing, why does it keep harming people?"
Also true. The biggest reason I left was because they allowed my dad to do horrible things me sister, my mom, and I. Surprisingly, I was able to have my mom follow in my footsteps during my "rebell" teen years. The rebell on religion.
As a defected catholic. I hated going to church. My friends would be out having fun. Meanwhile I had to read a mythical story in front of a crowd of people that I didn’t even like. I still have some resentment towards my parents for doing this to me.
Yeah, what turns me off is they look more like a GOP recruitment organization than a religion. Too much pimping out for domination and not enough equality.
I have been a part of churches my whole life, and I have a 4 year degree from a bible college. We closed on our first house, and the week we moved in all the COVID shutdowns hit. So we never got connected with a church community in our current town. Then it was the response of many churches to COVID restrictions was offputting. My wife is a nurse, and encountered pastors who would post on social media that she and her fellow nurses were killing people at the hospital. Every church is different, but seeing so many christians prioritizing their comfort over the safety of their communities really was harmful for the church. For me, church has always been one of the primary ways to get connected in my neighborhood, and it's been difficult to find community in new ways in a smallish town without a lot of social events available.
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." ~Founding Father *Thomas Jefferson*, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814
Good for Mike for finding an excuse to go to Vegas - he deserves some fun! Thinking religion is the only thing that can bring people together is just patently false - and instead of relying on charitable handouts with religious overtones, maybe do what other developed countries do and make sure there is a social safety net in place.
@@9786oof, there are definitely more secret nones. Obama is probably a none, but very few politicians out themselves because they want votes. Christians look down on not being religious
@@gladtravis I feel like trump was a none too. GWB was probably actually christian. I’m too young to remember any of the other presidents. A lot of the founding fathers would be classified as nones by today’s standards funnily enough
Theism is a worldview. Rejecting claims that bigfoot exists is not a worldview. Atheism is a position on a single issue; a rejection of current and previous god claims. It is not the declaration that there are no gods. A theist needs to meet their burden of proof before a rational person will accept such an extraordinary claim. For the record: Agnostic is not a position between atheist and theist. Theism (the belief in a god) is a binary proposition. If you're not convinced at least one god exists, then you are an atheist. Gnosis is greek for 'knowledge'. So you can call yourself an agnostic atheist if you feel you need more information, but until you have a belief in a god, you are atheist. Now, there isn't a speck of evidence to support any god claim. In fact, all the evidence points the other way. The current "religions" are no different from any of the cults in our past. Nothing is coming to save us or sadistically punish our perceived enemies. It's time to drop this ridiculous, superstitious nonsense and move forward as Tribe Earth.
The idea that society needs maintain a superstitious belief in a righteous, wrathful omnipotent deity in order to impose ethical and moral authority over the general population is repugnant and infantile.
“Without religion what do we have to hold us together?” Religion has ALWAYS been used as a weapon against those who believe differently. So many wars began because of religion.
The cognitive dissociative disorder of someone out at night in the streets to give Phamplets about the gospel of Jesus claiming to be not religious Simply fantastic
3:05 - The social safety net burden is not meant to be the Church's responsibility - it's a structural foundation that should be maintained in the commons by taxdollars. Just like nobody expects the church to show up to a fire at your house with fire engines.
President George W Bush expanded government funding for private religious charities, which is why they are expected to help. When my tax dollars go to them for putting out fires, then I will expect them to show up to a fire at my house.
@@firstname7470 So that's one bad idea feeding another BAD idea. The government has NO business being an arm of the church and Bush is just the tip of the iceberg of religion-besotted asshats who have perverted our Constitution.
"Is it bad that less and less people are going to church or affiliate as religious? We asked a Pastor!" Yes, because that's one completely unbiased opinion on the topic 🙄 You can basically hear his bias dripping from every other sentence. He's worried that there might not be any shelters and soup kitchens for the homeless or needy? That we will loose our sense of community? Yeah, not like every other country that's beating the US in every social metric imaginable is less religious with more "Nones"... Could there possibly be any link? How about fixing that failed social system with some real policy changes, before you try to shoe-horn religion in as the almighty saviour it wants itself to be seen as? He's so US-centric, he basically talks stars and stripes and sh*ts bullets...
As a European, my hypothesis is that the US is so religious (it's the vast outlier in religiosity of all first world nations) *because* the US has no real social safety net. Which would explain a lot: people go to church because that's where they can at least get some help and churches rile up people to be against tax funded social programs because it cements the need for churches as organizations.
@@TheFeldhamster "As a European, my hypothesis is that the US is so religious (it's the vast outlier in religiosity of all first world nations) because the US has no real social safety net." As an American, let me provide some context. In about 1980, the Republican party noted that "if the middle class continues to be prosperous and well-educated, all the churches will close." I'm paraphrasing, but you get the point. The destruction of our country is deliberate.
@@TheMisterGuy oh, wow, I knew they started to do deliberate stuff to keep getting re-elected but I didn't know it was that explicit re: church closings. But yes, makes total sense.
People aren't becoming less "religious." They're becoming less CHRISTIAN. This whole thing was done from one perspective, that of Christianity. Even the idea of what it means to be "religious" isn't the same for people who aren't Christian. Just ask any Jewish person.
Population are becoming more Atheist. Nothing compared to Scandinavia, but each year the polls show a decline in people of faith. As an Atheist I can say, there are many Atheists in America. Which shows yet another difference between those that rules us, are not really like us.
@@justadad6677 Big assumption that those that rule us hold any god above themselves, man. I suspect their are very few gods fearing rulers and more people who pretend it as a convenient political prop.
@@justadad6677 You may be right, but the piece is still about how Americans are becoming less Christians. It mostly assumes that Christianity is the only religion.
@@justadad6677 The fact that there are so many Jewish Atheists - and not just ones who identify ethnically as Jewish, ones who also go to synagogue and celebrate holidays but are STILL atheists - is telling in how people assume "religion" is structured.
"Without religion, what do we have to hold us together?" ⬆️⬆️ and there's your problem right there...too many people STILL blindly believing for no good reason.
"Without religion what do we have to hold us together?" Better question. How many wars were started and how many people were killed because of religion?
All we have to do to get a notion of what society would look like without religion is to look at Europe. The "nones" are the vast majority there, and yet, they do a better job of creating a (secular) safety net than the US does. We don't need churches to feed the poor. Relying on them means a patchwork of uncoordinated, and inadequate sources of help for those in need. What if the whole world resembled Denmark? Sign me up.
@@jm-je4tl For the very wealthy. For the average person, it's about 25-30, or the same as a single person without deductions in the US. And they don't have to pay out of their check for health insurance.
@@jm-je4tl The top marginal tax rate in Denmark is somewhere between 50 and 55%. We do pay a VAT of 25% percent on all goods and services though. But in comparison to the average household budget, Denmark and America doesn't differ that much when it comes to expendable income. A lot of the stuff Americans pay for privately (education, healthcare etc) is covered by taxes in Denmark.
“I’m not religious, I’m just spreading my religious beliefs” You don’t need religion to have community, empathy, compassion, morality, etc. In fact, you’re more likely to have them in abundance and more stable without all the extra cult nonsense
Easy. I left my church when the congregation forced the board to remove our pastor because he was open to performing a homosexual marriage in our congregation. They claim to be welcoming to everyone. Sure, they're welcome to attend the service and tithe (IE donate $$$$), but they're just not welcome to be equal members of the church. I guess these folks never actually read the Bible...
I left Christianity at the age of 10/11. Was agnostic for years until I became pagan. I never regret my leaving. I lefr because I was not going to be told that (as a girl/woman) that I was the sourse of sin and that I was inferior to men.
People have seen through the nonsense that is religion for THOUSANDS of years. It only takes logic, as the ancient Greeks proved. I easily figured it out when I was about 9 years old. It's DEMOCRACY that has allowed it, as people are no longer forced by law to go to church/temple. And that's why fascists are always religious, whether they mean it or are just posing. PUTIN always wears a cross and Trump waved a Bible around like a flag.
It is absolutely the best thing since sliced bread. I can not begin to articulate just how excited I get when I see individuals around me start to realize that they are free to come to their own conclusions about the world and think rationally. I was raised Christian--a devout Christian. But after attending college and having every one of my personal dogmas tested to it's limits, I quickly became atheist. It was the most liberating, most self-actualizing experience of my life. When I first took evolutionary psychology, I absolutely despised my professor for what she taught, and now I consider her to be one of the most important individuals I've ever met. My mother has been a hardcore Christian her entire life, and to now watch my mother finally start to develop her own questions about the world and religion gives me hope for the future of mankind. Not a lot of hope if I'm honest, but a little hope nonetheless.
"More are becoming less religious while those that are remaining are becoming more extreme and violent." This is good, because the moderate, reasonable people who believe in mythical nonsense provide cover for the lunatic extremists. If only fanatics are in churches, suddenly it's shockingly clear how many of them there are and what a big problem they create.
Ooof... that final "without religion what do we have to hold us together?" was a pretty stark reminder that if religion is the only thing that stops you from just stabbing your neighbour in the face then you have a problem, not a solution.
At 5:23 : "[I mean] without religion what do we have that holds us together?" Idk, how about the _very basic fact _that we are all just human beings, who all essentially want the same thing, namely living a safe, healthy, and happy life, and thus we need to work together, cooperate and compromise in order to achive that?
I hear you, but that is quite the assumption about the motives of people of faith. It's akin to a Christian saying non-believers can't have morals without God. Both assumptions are wrong.
@@63yearoldskater "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but, for good people to do evil - that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
@@MooseMaunu I agree with the first part of that, but, the evidence doesn't support the idea that all "good people" who do evil things, do so because of religion. It's just another unfair generalization intended to be an unnecessary insult. My experience was different.
@@63yearoldskater The greatest atrocities man has committed against his fellow man throughout history has been in the name of some "god, religion or faith." The crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the Jewish holocaust 1935-1945, September 11th, 2001, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Muslims vs Hindis in India, The 30 Years War, Bosnians vs. Serbians, Westboro Baptist Church protesting funerals, and on and on and on...
@@MooseMaunu None of those atrocities were committed solely due to religion. Ultimately, they're mostly about money and power. (Edit: Except the Westboro Baptist Church. They're just monsters.)
I served a Mormon mission in Las Vegas. Literally preaching Jesus in the desert. I could see the crazy decline in religion back in 2007. Now my wife and I don't raise our kids in any faith, but I am going to teach them about all faiths so they have an appropriate understanding of what the rest of the world believes.
(at 5:16) is the Palisades Presbyterian Church in NY. As a kid my mom walked there almost every Sunday. She married my Dad there in 1946 and had his funeral there in 2004, hers 2017. For her it was singing, sermon and sisterhood.
The entire idea of "charity" is disgusting and should be replaced with services to the poor that lift them OUT of poverty, not maintain them in it. I don't need the rich to toss me their cast-off goods- I want JUSTICE for working people. I want to change society for the better, not allow the rich to feel good about themselves at my expense.
I don't think churches do all the social work this "social scientist" gives them credit for. One of the things I read about was people becoming jaded with their church during the pandemic, seeing it as a taker organization, one that lost interest in them as soon as they were absent and not giving money. But as a good way for a church to be profitable is to promise, the more you give the more you get, this is probably not surprising. Maybe that's a good title for the church magazine, "The Profitable Pastor". The best ways to bilk the gullible out of their cash
This guy seems to think Christian churches are some kind of monolith, which is absurd. Some churches legitimately do good work, like a lot of black churches in the south. These are churches who view the battle against racism as part of their faith, who provide social services to communities that are traditionally under-served by the larger region. These are the churches who help their parishioners vote and get vaccinated. They're legitimately charitable organizations, no matter how I personally feel about the religious aspects. There are also megachurches with millionaire pastors who preach the prosperity gospel. There are churches who organize protests against the basic human rights of members of the LGBTQ community. There are churches that demand ongoing tithes even in the midst of a pandemic-fueled unemployment rise, churches that demand in-person services despite that same pandemic. As an atheist who tends to view all religion with suspicion, I find myself sometimes forgetting that these differences exist and are really important. Many religious organizations _do_ play important social and welfare roles in their communities. However, in a functional society, churches wouldn't need to take up the burden of caring for the impoverished. That's the responsibility of a decent government.
Indeed. Hence all the Evangelical Screechers (not a typo) having a hissy fit about needing "in person" church services during the pandemic. It's hard to fleece the flock via zoom. They wanted butts in seats, CoVid positive or not, with open wallets at the ready when the plate gets passed. Disgusting.
The entire idea of "charity" is disgusting and should be replaced with services to the poor that lift them OUT of poverty, not maintain them in it. I don't need the rich to toss me their cast-off goods- I want JUSTICE for working people. I want to change society for the better, not allow the rich to feel good about themselves at my expense. And that goes for the religious too.
At some point you’ve got to grow up and stop believing in fairy tales. Because.. “Those that can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” - Voltair
Objectively you could argue that in the information age we are more informed even intelligent ( that may be a stretch for Americans ) and we are able to look at everything from any perspective without the constraints of localized information and local influence. We can follow the money trail, the corruption, the tax avoidance, and the many excesses of those who have parasitically lived off the ignorance and generosity of the gullible and faithful. We don't all see the deception and greed, but generation after generation have had enough cynical outcomes and contradictions bourn out that religion to no longer falls for that hold of fear of consequence and social clout of organized religion. Time we stood up and faced reality and left superstitions and worship where they belong, in the history of humankind and societal evolution. Miracles have an unfortunate habit of being here late and are unprovable.
As an American you are not wrong. It is also Bernie and the justice "democrats" like AOC get such negative coverage from both the left and right. They are trying to get big business out of lawmaking . However the media is owned by those very same businesses so Americans are never getting the truth. I used to think I was democrat.. if I watched news it was MSNBC, or CNN. I voted for Obama and always gave to charity. But then in 2018-19 I accidentally came across TYT. They are "liberal media " they fact check before giving news and they call out bad behavior on both sides of the aisle. It was in this time that some things that should have been big news with lots of coverage didn't even get mentioned in mainstream media.
Most successful and happy countries are irreligious. There's room for religion in certain people's lives, but many can do even better without it. The role religion has in bringing different people together, is no different than a workplace, youth organizations, volunteering organizations, etc. Remember religions were and still are responsible for separation and estrangement between people...
@@bigminks364 Why don't you move to Afghanistan? I mean, if you enjoy living in a country where the Abrahamic god plays a significant role in how the country is governed, then you will undoubtedly feel at home there!
I feel like I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again but: if there is a sufficiently reliable social safety net set up by the govt, there wouldn’t be a need for charity because we can take care of our own people without stooping towards guilting people to help the needy. Our tax dollars should already help those most in need, yet somehow it doesn’t and that’s why Americans NEED charities
Thank you. It's like assuming a person taking more medications or medicine is automatically healthier than a person taking fewer of them because their reasoning is that since medication helps someone treat an illness or condition, taking more medication means more treatment for whatever illnesses or conditions they might have. However, if a person doesn't have any illnesses or conditions, they won't need to take medication in the first place, since their body is already doing just fine.
Yes, and the help becomes so horribly random without a legal structure. Do you "deserve" help (looking right, acting right, having the right skin color, the right religion etc.)?
The entire idea of "charity" is disgusting and should be replaced with services to the poor that lift them OUT of poverty, not maintain them in it. We the People have a RIGHT to these services and don't need to go begging like Oliver Twist to our "betters" for their miserable "charity". I don't need the rich to toss me their cast-off goods- I want JUSTICE for working people. I want to change society for the better, not allow the rich to feel good about themselves at my expense. And that goes for the religious too.
The notion that churches are "dying every day" makes my heart sing. American Christianity is a poison that many people, especially the young, want no part of.
"The loss of religion is a threat to society itself?" The loss of religion would mean no more honor killings, suicide bombings, or the inciting motivation for whack job nationalists we have in the states. The world would be massively closer to being a paradise without religion. That pastor seems like a nice guy, but his religiosity has warped his ability to see the world as it is.
I agree with you that a lot of evil would end without religious belief, but lack of religion is not necessarily the solution. The Communist Democides of the 20th century (Soviet gulags, the Great Leap Forward, the Cambodian Democide, etc.) were all perpetrated by governments and people who were, ostensibly, non-religious. Now, we could argue that their political ideologies and nationalisms were a form of dogmatic thinking connected with some kind of spirituality has similar characteristics to religion, but it's not religion. And when most people reject religion, they replace it with some other aspirational belief and many of those (like the Communist beliefs that led to the 20th Century Democides) are just as harmful if not moreso than the religions whose places they usurped. Before being so quick to smash down our current societal architecture, at least take a second to draw up a blueprint for tomorrow's.
@@oremfrien (Sigh, I had to delete my initial comment twice, due to youtube messing it up. So you'll probably see this before the one I typed before this) Also, I think arguing that most folks that deconvert just trade their irrational beliefs in for other irrational beliefs is problematic. In my experience, the folks that do this are just still on their deconversion journey. Their religious condition is so strong, they can't give it up cold turkey. But I've conversed with many of these people and one thing that's almost always clear is that they have a better grasp on morality than they did when morality was just something defined by an authority figure. When they thought ANYTHING can be moral if that authority figure said it was. I've never heard of anyone in the deconversion process going on to do the sorts of horrific things theists often get up to. But as that's my own personal experience, I'm willing to change my mind on that if you have a citation. I'll look into it myself, too, just in case.
@@rikorobinson Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but it appears like your experience primarily concerns deconversion in Anglo-America or Western Europe, where values are much more strongly reinforced by secular institutions than religious ones and where critical thinking is, regardless of efficacy, actually taught. In most parts of the world, that's not the case, which is why the quick removal of religion that happened under Communism solved none of the dogmatic authority problems that deconverts you have encountered (per your words) profess. Now, to the extent you want statistics on the percentage of decoverts who grasp tightly onto another dogmatic ideology as soon as they ditch religion, I can't provide you raw numbers like that, but I can show you strong correlations. One of the best studied cases is the rise of the Quebec Independence Movement in the 1960s and 1970s whose rise occurred almost contemporaneously with the precipitous drop in Quebeckers identifying as Roman Catholics. In my view, these people simply swapped one ridiculous set of beliefs for another ridiculous set of beliefs. Now, the Quebec Independence Movement may not be as deleterious as the Roman Catholic Church, but that's not relevant, the point is that we have people swapping one set of ridiculous beliefs about how the world should be for another one, both based on identity markers more than present issues. We can also correlate the rise of protest movements in the United States in the 1960s and 2010s with the sharp declines of religiosity in those periods, but this has been far less concretely studied. I am only asking that we have some plan as to what we are going to do as a society to not just become partisan individualists in the wake of a mass deconversion. The Scandinavian countries have tight-knit communities and a strong communal integration which prevents the worst of these problems, but even Muslim immigration in 2015 caused massive societal unrest, which shows that these solutions are imperfect and certainly non-viable for countries like the United States which is constantly seeing large inflows of people from across the world.
@@oremfrienThanks for explaining! I have to admit, it's not something I given much thought, so I thank you for bringing it up. As a person that was raised without religion, it never occurred to me that something would be needed at all, other than the rejection of irrational claims. But that's obviously bias on my part, since I have no idea what it's like to deconvert. It's something I will give some thought and do some research during my nightly info binge tonight. Thanks for giving me something interesting to think about :-)
@@rikorobinson No worries. I am an Ex-Christian and I noticed myself that after I converted, I threw myself more-fully into ethnic nationalism and heritage study than I had before. (My family is Assyrian, so it was Assyrianism and Assyriology.) The more time I spent in that world, the more than I realized that I was not alone in replacing religion with some other aspirational goal. I am curious as a born-atheist, what kind of aspirational beliefs do you have or do you simply have something like a Buddhist acceptance of reality as broken and suffering that need not be improved or altered?
I was brought up Episcopal, discovered Buddhism at age 16--it was 1968, and that was otherwise one messed-up year--and I'm still a Buddhist now. That's not going to change after all this time...
Brought up Catholic/Protestant, so of course I became an atheist. Heard the Dhama at 21, 45 years later, the truth is still the truth. No god, no king, no salvation, no excuses, just truth.
wartgin Well yeah I figured if that they were breaking their own rules it should be okay to pretend I was a Christian. I was brought up Christian so I’ve read the bible. A lot of the morals are good but there’s a lot of stuff in there that’s not so good. I literally can’t believe the dogma so I can’t be Christian. I do like a lot of the morals and parables though so I know “the rules”.
As someone who is also a social scientist who studies "None-ification" this is a fascinating look for me on how others might view and interpret my work. It is also really interesting to see the how people are responding to the video. Some have thoughts in line with what research shows us, others less so. This video and people's reactions to it are surprisingly invigorating to me that my research matters and people outside my field find it interesting.
To me, the thing that stood out about the interview subject was that he was not only a "social scientist" (of undetermined expertise and training) but also a pastor. To me, that seems like a really bizarre combination, as my career as a biologist is absolutely a full-time job and I would not have the freedom to pursue an additional career like ministry. It honestly feels like there should be some sort of conflict-of-interest here, like a professional rat-catcher putting out a study on how high the rat population is and someone should really do something about it. Either way, it seems like being a pastor would somewhat reduce the researcher's potential objectivity here. Thoughts?
I can absolutely assure you that comparative theology and non-religious people is definitely an interesting subject for plenty of folk. But most of us who are interested in it are purely hobbyists, relying on the insights that the intelligent people like you gather, analyse and publish. Please do keep up the great work! ❤️
@@jospinner1183 "Social scientist" is just a blanket way of referring to either sociologists, social psychologists, political scientists, and couple other closely related fields that study society. (Its like referring to the "psychical sciences" but most people know what chemistry, biology, etc are so that term is less used.) Burge is a political scientist. He works as an assistant professor Eastern Illinois University which as far as I know is a small university, they probably don't have the best pay which may explain his second job. For those in the social sciences second jobs are not unheard of. Many will work both at a school and with a nonprofit, the government, and other institutions as a means of enhancing their access to data or being an activists on a topic they care about. I know a few people that study religion who are pastors - being a pastor doesn't mean you run your own church, Burge could simply be a secondary pastor. As for the question of objectivity. In the social sciences we view objectivity differently than in the physical sciences - simply because we cannot separate ourselves from society. There is always going to be a bias in our work even if it is just in the form of what we study. I am an atheist who studies atheists - am I unable to be objective? On the physical science level yes, but on the social science level as long as I show my work when I write up my methods and am convincing in my analysis I'm am good to go. Now Burge's book I will admit does have a bias because he wrote this book for fellow pastors. (I bought it for my own work before this segment aired and read parts of it though overall it wasn't useful.) However, where he presents his analysis of the data and the data itself he is highly objective. Since the book itself isn't for fellow social scientists I give it a pass. I do actually commend him because he doesn't spend the book trying to tell readers how to "keep people religious" but rather understands that secularization is going to happen whether we like it or not. He instead tells his readers that their work with communities is still important and that they should continue "preaching biblical truths that cut across political lines". The book isn't meant to be objective in its conclusions but the data it presents is. Now I cannot speak for Burge's other work, I haven't read anything published in peer-reviewed journals from him. Could he be super biased towards religion sure? I have no idea. But to assume he is simply because of his status as a pastor is just wrong. (Also I realize I probably didn't need to write this much...sorry...)
no dude. never tell. never . they WILL come for us one day. your whole family wil hate you. u can loose your job, and friends. Lie. just lie. they do. noone cares if u lie. usa is more welcoming of liars racist and bigots then they will ever be to you now.
It's not so much the lack of Christianity, but the lack of communial interaction. What essentially needs to develop, is community centres where people can meet up to talk in and interact in a friendly setting. Have food, arts and crafts stuff, make it a nice welcoming place.
People who believe in a god believe everything happens for a reason, it doesn't. People who believe in a god believe there is a better afterlife, there isn't.
In Germany food banks - or Der Tafel - is a volunteer Association.. not a Church Organization - so do not worry if the churches disappear - People will still organize and do it without them.
The entire idea of "charity" is disgusting and should be replaced with services to the poor that lift them OUT of poverty, not maintain them in it. I don't need the rich to toss me their cast-off goods- I want JUSTICE for working people
@@lorraineclark4413 And what are you personally doing to help your cause..spouting without the back up of joining in .. a so called volunteering for the cause. Do yo think the people who run the food banks are not in with the government? Oh they are . and they do not pull their punches.
Without religion what do we have to hold us together??? All religion does is tear us apart, for gods sake even the different religions can't agree to agree!!
On the off chance that someone from the program reads comments... I would like to donate to this cause. However, I am not comfortable with entering credit card info on You Tube... is there a way you can set this up for either some other payment system or use a click through to a different site? Thank you.
The problem with depending on religiosos for charity to the poor is they always are angling for people to say the right prayer to get their sandwich. I was a churchgoner in ninth grade, and I just turned 67. This trend is not sudden; it's been a long time building.
Out of curiosity, when did you stop going to church? It seems like your generation (Baby Boomers) were the first to really begin leaving organized religion in great numbers, and I'm curious about your perspective on this. (For what it's worth, I'm a 41-year-old lifelong atheist who was raised by secular Boomer parents. They were both the first non-churchgoers in their families.)
I'm 73, raised Baptist, doubts by age 4. Began with their attitude toward girls and women, all the animal sacrifice and Yahweh loving the smell of burnt flesh, all the moral stories that seemed immoral, and the hypocrisy. Teaching "love thy neighbor but hate the Catholic" when my neighbors on all sides were Catholic. Then learning about so many denominations (and watching my church split), so many religions (and notions of "God"), and home sick one Sunday watching First Baptist on tv (only churches available) with Dr Criswell (sp?) standing on the front steps declaring no black person would enter "his church" (whose church!!!?). They denied that ever happened for years later, but I saw it and heard it from the church's own video equipment (can't blame mainstream media). Out of school, looking for "the truth", attended a New Thought church awhile, was Wiccan for years (eclectic), eventually realizing every religion that drew me had a strong atheist tendency because I was and had long been atheist. Still fascinated by religion/mythology/sociology/psychology, no longer "looking" for "something", still living in the Bible Belt, still an animal-loving tree-hugging never-married home-owning progressive. Sorry for the Wall of Text, but you expressed curiosity about Boomer journeys. It was a time of rapid change, new religious introductions and inventions, hope and optimism and science fiction becoming science fact. The world of Star Trek beckoned.
The biggest homeless and addiction charity in our area requires people attend weekly church service or you are booted from the program. I refuse to donate to them based on that alone.
@@amandabeachum188 I feel that. We only have one fully secular shelter in my city, so all the LGBTQ homeless folks tend to line up to try to get into it. The Christian shelters just aren't guaranteed to be safe for them.
Me and my sisters just had this conversation, that we've never found another community like the church. A lot of us after we left evangelicalism, we tried a bunch of religious groups. None of them felt right. Honestly I'd actually really like to be religiously affiliated, as a materialist and humanist. To go fellowship with people, share my thoughts, my favorite songs, do charity work together, argue about the interpretation of stories. I just haven't found such a group yet. *Someone make an atheist church please.*
If you haven't already, you could look into Unitarian Universalism. A lot of humanists and atheists fit well into those spaces, even though not all UUs are atheists. Wishing you luck in finding the community you desire
He didn't destroy it, he just did what he always does - made it about him. Now we've got Evangelicals acting like he's the second coming, and it's pretty effective at making those with a more skeptical bent to see how dogma shifts in response to social conditions.
@@geraldgrenier8132 This is simply another arena where the US lags behind it's economic peers, the way we are with science, education, politics, social services, climate change polity, etc.
I didnt have to pay much attention to this “expert” to know hes biased af🗣 We do not need religion to bring us together. If anything religion divides us cz many churches literally tell their people to not socialize with non believers etc. everyone knows the number one conflict makers in gatherings is politics and religion.
It was interesting to see what people thought of churches, particularly the woman who was complaining about being told not to wear makeup etc. There are plenty of churches who do not do that kind of thing.
It's called the library. We can learn about how fish tend to eat every day (Jonah), the sun never stopped in the sky, a donkey probably didn't talk, and that the exodus might not have actually happened. One can also organize events from the library.
@@The_Other_Ghost "It's called the library." But it's not because we don't go there every week. And people who go there aren't told what to think for an hour straight. Indoctrination is a weapon they can use, but we can't.
why.. he wont get people to praise him as much .wil he?? after all he talks to god. he is very special. wonder how many kids he has giving extra attetion too:\
I think this also ignores the numerous scandals that have rocked religions over the past several decades. Younger people are more aware of them and less likely to accept "we're all sinners' as an answer.
Wait...so has anyone tried lobbying the GOP for fair employment issues on the basis that a stable 5 or 4 day work week that can pay the bills would make it easier for people to go to church? 🤔 Really enjoyed this piece, and definitely going to buy Burge's book.
I would also highly recommend books by Phil Zuckerman if you are interested in this topic from a social science standpoint. Burge's book is a pretty good summary of recent literature but Zuckerman provides more in-depth looks at non-religious across the US and does comparative analyses to Scandinavian countries. Burge's book does also have a religious bias given that he is a pastor and Zuckerman comes at this topic from a more secular standpoint.
@@nicsnort Zuckerman is great! I've only read "faith no more", but i can see what you mean in terms of finding a balance between the secular and the religious biases that are inherent in every such study. Now I want to catch up on his more recent work, thank you for bringing him up! 🙂
@@elijahcumpton9926 :) naturally. Faith No More is a great book and I am using a lot of Zuckerman's work in my current research, so I'm a fan haha. He has a new book coming out sometime next year co-authored with a couple other sociologists that I heard him talk about at a conference recently. Its about the secularization of society but I forget the title.
Without religion what do we have to hold us together? Morality. Dassit. If you can’t be a decent person without religion then you weren’t a decent person to begin with.
Yes! Couldn’t agree more
I think in this context he's talking about community, and as any atheist can tell you - it's pretty much impossible to build a sustainable community around vaguely similar desires to be "good" people. 🤷♂️
@@elijahcumpton9926 As an atheist I have no clue what you are talking about. Pretty sure you are making stuff up.
@@elijahcumpton9926 There are huge groups of atheists, humanists, and Zen or secular Buddhists that would beg to disagree.
@@elijahcumpton9926 "it's pretty much impossible to build a sustainable community around vaguely similar desires to be "good" people. "
Um, we call them societies. And I reject the notion churches are currently filling that void. Replace "good people" with "hateful, bigoted, spiteful, delusional, lying, and ignorant people," and you might have a point.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
~Lucius Annaeus Seneca
It's sad that rulers have never been concerned with ethics or telling the truth.
@@thunderpooch Only the rulers with hidden agendas like serving the wealthy. This is why the quote's been true for so long, the church was the greatest source of wealth for centuries.
People have seen through religion for thousands of years. Isn't it time Americans caught up?
@@lorraineclark4413Agreed.
Sadly, my country is just too dumb, arrogant, and proud of it to manage that very necessary fight, even as our democracy is at risk from these fundie nutjobs.
@@thunderpooch Some have. Charlemagne, for one.
You can have food banks and soup kitchens without religion.
You can help the hungry without holding their food hostage.
For real
I'd give this a dozen likes if I could.
Church "charity" comes at a cost, too. Just not in cash.
The government has snap for poor people. Food banks are fake charities for people to get rid of expired food and feel self righteous doing so and churches to have something to brag about.
@@hakapelika7024 ok, sociopath.
food banks... are... very real... and can be secular
"Christianity started out in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise."
~Sam Pascoe
Not true. It started as a hoax, a scam and became a larger hoax and scam after it achieved political power.
@@deirdre108 Haha Well said.
In a nutshell A/K/A organized Religion.
Spot on.
And after to Asia to become a sect?
“Without religion what will hold us together?” Religion is what pulls us apart.
You are basically defining American religion as evangelicals...they are the ones who hate the rest of us. Catholics, Jews, and others, they are not giving out this message of 'if you're not one of us, you're nothing.'
I came here to say this!
@@julianmarsh1378 Religions have rules, written or unwritten, to be followed to be an accepted member of that religion. You accept those rules and you’re set up with your chosen group.
@@julianmarsh1378 wrong. As a jew, I can tell you that is incorrect. Jews may not say that, buteven semi-religious jews consistently place themselves above others, even jews. And I am not even going to get into christians and their whackadoo ideas about god and jesus winning football games and making you have that baby
Wow it's what pulling us a part
Pretty sure what has been tearing us apart is everyone fighting over their religious beliefs. Been a Christian for 23 years but I'm no fool. Watching the evangelicals in america behave the way they do is making me realize how little I have in common with a large section of Christians in my country. A lot of talk the talk and then the walk is quite the opposite.
Feign contempt for evangelicals all you want, but your core religious belief is that your unquestionable diety is completely faultless for willfully tormenting and burning anyone that doesn't praise him
Your "real Christianity doesn't support injustice" stance is absolutely battered by any real historical study of the role of Christianity in society. I appreciate that you see the hypocrisy in the ways others practice, but if you think all that's needed is a "return to roots", you're deluding yourself. If you can't recognize that your foundational texts are not God's blinding truth but a loose collection of semi-effective rules for (unjust) social cohesion written by people for whom the birth of a mutated sheep meant it was time to burn anyone they didn't like as a witch, and therefore that said texts may contain some room for improvement, you're not going to make any progress.
As brilliant as some portions of the Bible can be, you will know a tree by the fruit that it bears. At least in America, Christianity does not remotely achieve the results that its texts would suggest.
Not correct. It was the gutting of the middle class by Reagan. Many more people don't feel they have a stake in the society. This process got worse under successive governments
@@DEAR7340 the text doesn't suggest anything. The bible can be used to buttress any belief. It has been for hundreds of years. The pilgrims in 1611 wanted to create a society where there would be no dissent, tolerance didn't enter into it
“The rise of the unaffiliated is actually really troubling.” Replace that with ANY other religious group and that statement is considered unacceptable. Significant double standard with how the unaffiliated are treated.
Yes, it's a double-standard, but not a new one. 🤷♀️
Yup, atheists are the most reviled of all religious beliefs.
@@richardwhaler8717 But hey, at least we're not the most reviled _group_ anymore. Apparently that's socialists now. Guess I'm doubly loathed?
@@jospinner1183 I'm an "expert" too does that make me a triple threat of revulsion?
@@richardwhaler8717 athiesm is not a religion as religions require faith. Athiest are just those that recognize the CONJOB that religion has been since its inception, and the same stories are retold over and over... Since the beginning it was a way to "other" people...and a way to literally steal your lifetime away. So many have been conned out of their life by the "promise of everlasting life in heaven" that they sacrifice their happiness or life itself. To exploit the lives of others and control peoples thoughts is evil. I think ot should be legal to beat down aggressive religious panhandling
Churches as melting pots? Sunday AM is the most racially segregated time for America.
I absolutely agree on your point. However, there must be exceptions. I live in Canada, and there are way too many churches in my area. The one across the street from my house has an incredibly diverse congregation. As a life-long atheist, I was shocked to witness it. Although I heard from the people who sold me this house that the church is run by bad people, I've never had any problems, and they've never knocked on my door to tell me the "good news".
Sunday mornings are the most financially segregated, too. Megachurches especially generally don't have many poor members, and neither do their smaller wealthy counterparts.
@@louisanow Good point! I agree that is also a big factor.
@Derek Lowe Pariah Deplorables reap what they sow when they're deservedly ostracized, but they're so silly playing professional victims they're ridiculous beyond measure.
@Derek Lowe Cry more.
I was a dedicated church goer, but was exhausted by hearing conspiracy theories from congregants and the pulpit. My principles won’t allow me to vote for this generation of Republicans.
Excellent comment. Thank you!
I'd like to think it's because people are waking up to the delusion of religion. But I fear it's because they're going Flat Earth or "Q" instead. I hope I'm wrong.
bullsh*t, if you were dedicated like you say, you wouldn't be a "Church Goer", vague on the conspiracies, and most come true anyway, not all Republicans are wacked out bible thumpers, the same as not all Liberals aren't all baby killers and living the illusion that a man can give birth . next time you have some free time, change your name, it doesn't suit your principles
I agree totally with that. Anyone that supports Trump and republikkklans are not religious. They are the total opposite of religious. They just don't know it.
what conspiracy theories ?
"Without religion, what do we have?" = Less hypocrisy, more acceptance of difference, and more critical thinking.
I think the hypocritical, non-accepting people who don't engage in critical thinking would be pretty much the same with or without religion.
Though you would remove a tool people can use to control others: "Do as I say God says, or you'll burn. Afflict as I say God says, or they'll burn." - so at least that's something.
Every church I've ever been in has been pro-education, pro-human rights, pro-other religions. The point of faith is the transformation of the self toward greater kindness and generosity and society to greater equity and justice. That does not happen without critical thinking. I'm sorry that the religious people you've met were the self-righteous tools.
@@MerricMaker Where *are* these wonderful churches you mention? I wouldn't mind going to those churches, I think!
People who are intolerant say it's what God wants. Without religion, they would find another excuse
In the recent past, nonreligious/nones were a self-selected group of open minded people. As religion dies out for the rest (which is what has been happening over the past ten years or so) the rise of tribalism based on race/ethnicity, political affiliation, language, etc. will just replace religion. Prejudiced bullies do not change their stripes just because they stopped believing in God. If anything, they actually behave worse because they will not have the threat of divine punishment holding them back anymore.
I grew up devoutly Mormon and only left the church about 10 years ago, but being an 'active congregant' involved about 20 hours of attendance per week. (The regular 3 hour Sunday service was only the beginning--there were 'supplemental' meetings pretty much every day of the week.) I remember when the pandemic started and my mom called to say they weren't holding services in the building and I thought "If this goes on for more than a month or two, several millions of Mormons are gonna realise how much 'free time' they suddenly have and they're not gonna be willing to go back to that lifestyle."
The sooner America can shake off its self-righteous shackles, the better off we'll all be. Religious zealotry is a plague and nothing more than systematized Narcissism.
My impression is that they didn’t reduce meetings much. They came to visit my long inactive 90 year old father a couple times before there was a vaccine available. My dad’s best friend, who was still active in the church, died of COVID.
Repetition is part of programming. Words, songs, rocking movement, sayings, etc. From a ex Catholic in perpetual recovery. Lol.
Preach it Loud baby. Those at the back haven't heard you yet
Why are you here Ingrid? Miss you
@@DARWINZOO Turns out I'm homeless and in the ER for Thanksgiving, so I'm drowning myself in UA-cam :P
My instagram doesn't work since i don't know my password anymore so I don't see you much!
The “expert social scientist” at the end saying he’s a pastor very much explained his stance on this topic. Of course he’s worried. His life’s work and purpose is up for elimination. Good luck Pal. The vail of secrets behind the machine that is religion has been lifted. Why does the church have to do the social services that the state should be doing? So they can gain tax exemption for their “non profit”. All his arguments are null and void. As a defected catholic, I’m proud of my fellow Americans seeing the light and realizing it’s all a lie to keep you dedicated and obedient.
Matt, that was well said. I refer to myself as a recovering Catholic. Be well, friend. ✌
Yes and no. There are actually a lot of non-religious social scientists that share this view for the point that Mike brought up about charity. Churches supplement America's social safety net so there is a real concern in sociology about what would happen to the poor of the US if the church system fails and there is not a government system to replace it. A lot of people would suddenly be going hungry and/or have no shelter.
Of course, there is a huge darkside to religion as well and Burge has his own biases but he is mostly repeating viewpoints that most social scientists share. They could have talked to Phil Zuckerman (an atheist social scientists who has published numerous books) and he would have told them very similar things. I'm a recovering Catholic too but as someone who is sociologist as well I recognize that religion as an institution does play an important role in people's lives beyond the (questionable) beliefs it imparts on people.
@@nicsnort As mentioned in the post you are replying to, the fact that there is the NEED to fil the gaps is the issue, there should not be that need at all. Because charities all they do is perpetuate a problem and not solve it. Take all the money the churches make and invest in UBI, Social programs and then tell me that there is a need for charity. Charities are like Paracetamol, yes it minimises the pain if the pain is a passing one, it does not solve your chronical illness.
@@Ketraar I don't deny that nor implied that portion of OP's post. I was responding to OP's insinuation of bias because of Burge's religious affiliation. The quotations around Burge's expert status and calling his arguments null and void because of his religious affiliation were unnecessary. I simply pointed out that Burge's statements were in line with secular researchers.
@@nicsnort Right I understood that they were void because of the premise that the churches would be the only ones able to do it and if they didn't exist somehow our society would stop caring for those people. The expertise is indeed questionable considering the affiliations, but then any expertise can be questioned considering the premise. I will have a very hard time trusting a pastor saying the only reason why we help people in need is because his institution does it, that's just a normal reaction to have from a sceptic stance.
Then if we dive deeper in to why these institutions are often at the centre of the help it gets clear fast that its due to less noble reasons, in fact often the same institution is/was the cause that created said need, which was the OPs point.
"Without religion what do we have to hold us together?" Our highly evolved sense of morality, empathy and compassion. Our innate need for social interaction and connection, our intelligence and pursuit of knowledge and our species unique ability for altruism and capacity for love. ❤That's what.
Exactly!
@Mason Campbell Amen! erm I mean... yes! :D
💜💜💜
@Diao "Yeah but the problem throughout history is that many people don't have a highly evolved sense of empathy or compassion and those who are more poorly educated tend to lack that kind of sense of compassion"
That's a rather big pile of bull excrement. By default humans are cooperative and empathic, we need that for survival, even with rivals we tend to care. And saying that poorly educated are less compassionate is the most wrong thing I read in a long time, in fact my experience has been to the exact contrary.
👏👏👏👏👏👏❤❤
"Without religion, what do we have to hold us together?"
More like: "Without religion, what do we have to fight over?"
_"Without religion, we have one less thing to fight over."_
Sadly, people will fight over anything. Toilet paper, mask mandates, just to name a few.
"You have to wear clothes in public for common decency." = _Ok, we should all do that!_
"You have to wear a mask in public to reduce the spread of a deadly virus." = _Noooo! My freedoms have been violated!_
Go figure! 🙄
Amen.
Clearly you are not paying attention to world events
@@cherylparris5277
Oh the irony.
Race, class, resources, pride, revenge...People love to fight about everything.
One Sunday, when I was about 18, when I got home from church, my older sister asked me if I really believed that stuff. I thought for a minute and then said "No, not really". She then asked why I went church, I said "I guess because I always have". That was the last time I went to church!
Buy that wonderful sister a drink! :D
@@jamesmoore1317 She bought me a bottle of Jack Daniels for my 21st Birthday
I'm not sure which alternate reality those guys were talking about where church is a safe space for different views. Sunday morning is and has always been the most racially and culturally segregated day of the week.
Yeah he was a fun interview subject - but his research seems extremely flawed.
Especially when he essentially says "religion brings us together" at the end. A zoomed out view of history would tell him otherwise.
I mean, from his reality, sure....
Exactly. And a sermon is definitely more of a lecture on how to be better church-goers, rather than a sharing of ideas on how we can work together to be better.
Church is dangerous.... sexually.
The atheist group I belonged to in Oklahoma does a lot of charity work. Everthing from food banks to disaster relief. As well as blood dives and voter registration drives. Any group can do it, they don't have to be religious.
You did blood dives? How cool!! As a scuba diver sign me up. Maybe next halloween! 😂 😂
I fully respect what you do. What details we differ on we can discuss (in friendship) while we help the real people.The hungry, the helpless, confused, addicted, threatened, abused, and afraid. They don't need social workers, police thugs, political hacks, and other intellectual bench warmers to interfere. They actually pass laws saying we can't give out even sandwiches without a permit, photo ops, and palm-grease. Ugh.
Feeding people: not hard. Beauraucracy: let's make it hard.
How did you come to organize an atheist group in the first place. I'm an atheist, but would never consider socializing with people that had that singular proclamation as the binding reason to gather. I'm not anti social or a closet atheist. I've been a member of service organizations.
@@cdjhyoung personally, I don't. I'm not an atheist but I have difficulty with organized religion. Too much talk, too many pointing fingers. I find people others consider wierd. Because I'm wierd. Who wants to be boring normal. Pretty soon there's too many of us to call names. If any of us has injuries or allergies or any of that we stick together. Everyone has some kind of talent. Even the sickliest ones can play music or work a computer or something. Then after a while everyone is getting what they need. It works out. The one basic rule: treat your neighbor as you would be treated yourself. (Mark 12:31)
@@rjonboy7608 Unfortunately, part of this has come about from people suing. There have been the Less Fortunate who have gotten sick on stuff, and then they sue people. Then again other times it's BS.
ALSO: Even as a LIberal Christian I know that Churches frequently don't do enough to help The Poor as they're supposed to. Certainly NOT the Mega Churches which can help the most. An certainly NOT most of the Big Names in Politics.
There's been people who have LITERALLY said, "I hate Christians, but you're an exception."
With the Growing Politicization of Churches, has come about a lesser focus on helping others is a problem I have seen.
An frankly, I don't care WHAT Religion someone does or does no have, as long as they're trying to be good people, an help others. There's NOTHING in The Bible that would say "Oh how DARE non-Christians set up things to help those in need", or even working with Non-Chrsitian Groups to do so.
I understand when he says he's worried that without organized religion there wouldn't be food pantries & other outreach but as a "none" (or agnostic) I donate my time & try to volunteer when I can. I know other nones who do so as well.
It also ignores that there's humanist and atheist groups that also do events, not even just operating as individuals - the Atheist Community of Austin runs charity drives, hosts multiple weekly call-in shows talking about everything from skepticism to sexuality, and tries to connect like-minded folks.
He says people are turning away from belonging, but that's just because he hitched his horse to a magic wagon that doesn't make logical sense. We've got community, it just doesn't look like he expects it to.
In my personal experience, the "nones" are much more likely to volunteer their time, money, or other resources to help their community or those in need. I think it may be because the religious get the feeling that they are contributing their "thoughts and prayers" and believe that God will handle things from there. While us "nones" believe if something needs to be done, sitting around thinking positive thoughts alone will not accomplish anything.
Somehow people have this incredibly incorrect opinion that only religious groups care about helping those in need. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Us nones do this because we want to be deccent people while we are alive, we are not doing because of some vague promise of reward when we die. There is alot of us out there we need to start flexing that power.
Except there would be, just not Christian ones
Yeah, religious organizations are not the only places that perform charity.
A homeless looking man walked up to a congregation before church. He asked for some help in the way of money for food. He was shunned. Imagine their surprise when he appeared behind the pulpit. He was their new pastor. He admonished them and sent them home without a service that day and told them to reflect on their behaviour. True story.
My Daddy always said if you need help go to a bar not a church and I believe he's right.
It's a little annoying that "none" is phonetically similar to "nun".... Also, if the far-right hadn't spent the last few decades co-opting Christianity, maybe so many moderate and left-leaning people wouldn't have been pushed out to become "spiritual but not religious" type nones.
The Far-right has combined with the the Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians, and that's the real problem. The combination of authoritarian and fascist doctrines has created a plague within the body politic. Individually they are small minorities, but together you get this 25-30 percent that are followers of Trump. He's just milking them for money, great grift on his part.
I left the church for multiple reasons but the biggest was the Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians who invaded my local church. It even caused my parents to leave the church, and they were devout.
It's called a pun. A nun-pun.
YES!👍🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I'm more annoyed that they lump us atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, etc. into the "nones." Now _that's_ lazy, don't you think? :)
I wish I'd tried harder to get my pilot certificate. I could have been a Flying None.
I feel like this ignores how many people are "Nones" cause of religious trauma or less intense simply hated it as a kid and don't want their kids to go through that
Yeah I thought it was disappointing how shallow this piece was. They didn't even ask anyone identifying as a None why they do so.
Entirely too few people are familiar with the idea of 'religious trauma,' and even more should ask, "if it's such a good thing, why does it keep harming people?"
Maybe it was just the decades of protecting pedophiles, creating in the largest ring of child abusers in human history.
Also true. The biggest reason I left was because they allowed my dad to do horrible things me sister, my mom, and I. Surprisingly, I was able to have my mom follow in my footsteps during my "rebell" teen years. The rebell on religion.
As a defected catholic. I hated going to church. My friends would be out having fun. Meanwhile I had to read a mythical story in front of a crowd of people that I didn’t even like. I still have some resentment towards my parents for doing this to me.
Completely ignores the fact that the church has gone hard right and driven many away
Yeah, what turns me off is they look more like a GOP recruitment organization than a religion. Too much pimping out for domination and not enough equality.
LOL the source of "hard right" has been pretty consistently hard right. Let me guess, they "didn't used to be so political..."
Hard "right".
Amen
I have been a part of churches my whole life, and I have a 4 year degree from a bible college. We closed on our first house, and the week we moved in all the COVID shutdowns hit. So we never got connected with a church community in our current town. Then it was the response of many churches to COVID restrictions was offputting. My wife is a nurse, and encountered pastors who would post on social media that she and her fellow nurses were killing people at the hospital. Every church is different, but seeing so many christians prioritizing their comfort over the safety of their communities really was harmful for the church. For me, church has always been one of the primary ways to get connected in my neighborhood, and it's been difficult to find community in new ways in a smallish town without a lot of social events available.
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."
~Founding Father *Thomas Jefferson*, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814
Good for Mike for finding an excuse to go to Vegas - he deserves some fun!
Thinking religion is the only thing that can bring people together is just patently false - and instead of relying on charitable handouts with religious overtones, maybe do what other developed countries do and make sure there is a social safety net in place.
Excellent comment!
Exactly 💯!
As a None myself, I find it deeply embarrassing that the only member of Congress who shares that worldview is Kyrsten Sinema.
It’s hugely possible that a ton of the other congresspeople are secretly nones. I wish that there wasn’t a stigma against being a none
@@9786oof, there are definitely more secret nones. Obama is probably a none, but very few politicians out themselves because they want votes. Christians look down on not being religious
Mazie Hirono is a Zen Buddhist so there's at least one other atheist, and there are 2 unitarians. It's depressing, but at least it isn't 0 🙃
@@gladtravis I feel like trump was a none too. GWB was probably actually christian. I’m too young to remember any of the other presidents. A lot of the founding fathers would be classified as nones by today’s standards funnily enough
Theism is a worldview. Rejecting claims that bigfoot exists is not a worldview. Atheism is a position on a single issue; a rejection of current and previous god claims. It is not the declaration that there are no gods. A theist needs to meet their burden of proof before a rational person will accept such an extraordinary claim.
For the record: Agnostic is not a position between atheist and theist. Theism (the belief in a god) is a binary proposition. If you're not convinced at least one god exists, then you are an atheist. Gnosis is greek for 'knowledge'. So you can call yourself an agnostic atheist if you feel you need more information, but until you have a belief in a god, you are atheist.
Now, there isn't a speck of evidence to support any god claim. In fact, all the evidence points the other way. The current "religions" are no different from any of the cults in our past. Nothing is coming to save us or sadistically punish our perceived enemies. It's time to drop this ridiculous, superstitious nonsense and move forward as Tribe Earth.
The idea that society needs maintain a superstitious belief in a righteous, wrathful omnipotent deity in order to impose ethical and moral authority over the general population is repugnant and infantile.
Agreed but that's not what the pastor said.
If one doesn't have morality inside oneself you will not find it in church
@@blueguy1995 Good point. Like a critic talking about the film the director should have made instead.
Someone has read the Founding Fathers!
@@blueguy1995 but it's what he's doing :)
“Without religion what do we have to hold us together?”
Religion has ALWAYS been used as a weapon against those who believe differently. So many wars began because of religion.
The cognitive dissociative disorder of someone out at night in the streets to give Phamplets about the gospel of Jesus claiming to be not religious
Simply fantastic
3:05 - The social safety net burden is not meant to be the Church's responsibility - it's a structural foundation that should be maintained in the commons by taxdollars. Just like nobody expects the church to show up to a fire at your house with fire engines.
True
President George W Bush expanded government funding for private religious charities, which is why they are expected to help. When my tax dollars go to them for putting out fires, then I will expect them to show up to a fire at my house.
Politics should stay out of church. Political MAGA evangelical christianity has nothing to do with The Bible. There is no Scripture to back it up
Firefighting once was a response shared by all able-bodied citizens OUT OF COMMON NECESSITY.
@@firstname7470 So that's one bad idea feeding another BAD idea. The government has NO business being an arm of the church and Bush is just the tip of the iceberg of religion-besotted asshats who have perverted our Constitution.
"Is it bad that less and less people are going to church or affiliate as religious? We asked a Pastor!"
Yes, because that's one completely unbiased opinion on the topic 🙄
You can basically hear his bias dripping from every other sentence. He's worried that there might not be any shelters and soup kitchens for the homeless or needy? That we will loose our sense of community? Yeah, not like every other country that's beating the US in every social metric imaginable is less religious with more "Nones"... Could there possibly be any link?
How about fixing that failed social system with some real policy changes, before you try to shoe-horn religion in as the almighty saviour it wants itself to be seen as?
He's so US-centric, he basically talks stars and stripes and sh*ts bullets...
It's an incredibly weird interview. Why didn't they consider talking _to_ any of those Nones that they're discussing?
As a European, my hypothesis is that the US is so religious (it's the vast outlier in religiosity of all first world nations) *because* the US has no real social safety net.
Which would explain a lot: people go to church because that's where they can at least get some help and churches rile up people to be against tax funded social programs because it cements the need for churches as organizations.
@@TheFeldhamster "As a European, my hypothesis is that the US is so religious (it's the vast outlier in religiosity of all first world nations) because the US has no real social safety net."
As an American, let me provide some context. In about 1980, the Republican party noted that "if the middle class continues to be prosperous and well-educated, all the churches will close." I'm paraphrasing, but you get the point. The destruction of our country is deliberate.
@@TheMisterGuy oh, wow, I knew they started to do deliberate stuff to keep getting re-elected but I didn't know it was that explicit re: church closings. But yes, makes total sense.
People aren't becoming less "religious." They're becoming less CHRISTIAN. This whole thing was done from one perspective, that of Christianity. Even the idea of what it means to be "religious" isn't the same for people who aren't Christian. Just ask any Jewish person.
Population are becoming more Atheist. Nothing compared to Scandinavia, but each year the polls show a decline in people of faith. As an Atheist I can say, there are many Atheists in America. Which shows yet another difference between those that rules us, are not really like us.
@@justadad6677 Big assumption that those that rule us hold any god above themselves, man. I suspect their are very few gods fearing rulers and more people who pretend it as a convenient political prop.
@@justadad6677 You may be right, but the piece is still about how Americans are becoming less Christians. It mostly assumes that Christianity is the only religion.
Mike Rubens is Jewish, isn't he?
@@justadad6677 The fact that there are so many Jewish Atheists - and not just ones who identify ethnically as Jewish, ones who also go to synagogue and celebrate holidays but are STILL atheists - is telling in how people assume "religion" is structured.
"Without religion, what do we have to hold us together?"
⬆️⬆️ and there's your problem right there...too many people STILL blindly believing for no good reason.
"Without religion what do we have to hold us together?"
Better question.
How many wars were started and how many people were killed because of religion?
All we have to do to get a notion of what society would look like without religion is to look at Europe. The "nones" are the vast majority there, and yet, they do a better job of creating a (secular) safety net than the US does. We don't need churches to feed the poor. Relying on them means a patchwork of uncoordinated, and inadequate sources of help for those in need. What if the whole world resembled Denmark? Sign me up.
I'd settle for the whole world resembling France or Italy.
75% tax rates
@@jm-je4tl For the very wealthy. For the average person, it's about 25-30, or the same as a single person without deductions in the US. And they don't have to pay out of their check for health insurance.
@@jm-je4tl
Taxrate isn't 75% even to the 1% in Europe!
@@jm-je4tl The top marginal tax rate in Denmark is somewhere between 50 and 55%. We do pay a VAT of 25% percent on all goods and services though. But in comparison to the average household budget, Denmark and America doesn't differ that much when it comes to expendable income. A lot of the stuff Americans pay for privately (education, healthcare etc) is covered by taxes in Denmark.
"Americans are becoming less religious"?! Why, thank God!!
I'll get my coat...
I mean the fact that his actions are worse than anything the "devil" has done.
“I’m not religious, I’m just spreading my religious beliefs”
You don’t need religion to have community, empathy, compassion, morality, etc. In fact, you’re more likely to have them in abundance and more stable without all the extra cult nonsense
Many evangelicals say they aren't religious, but what they really mean is that they aren't high-church.
@Diao true
He probably believes in that "It's a relationship, not a religion" dodge
And without the internecine battling with words OR bombs.
Everything the religious expert dude was afraid of, gave me hope.
right?!
Correction: "Without religion what will we have to to 'divide' us?"
Easy. I left my church when the congregation forced the board to remove our pastor because he was open to performing a homosexual marriage in our congregation. They claim to be welcoming to everyone. Sure, they're welcome to attend the service and tithe (IE donate $$$$), but they're just not welcome to be equal members of the church. I guess these folks never actually read the Bible...
They stopped after Leviticus. Not big readers, those folks, even when it comes to their only book.
I left Christianity at the age of 10/11. Was agnostic for years until I became pagan. I never regret my leaving. I lefr because I was not going to be told that (as a girl/woman) that I was the sourse of sin and that I was inferior to men.
Religion uses women as a scapegoat for the bad behavior of men.
marsay82 - Was it Christianity you left or Catholicism?
@@maryknight4109 Christianity
Paganism is just as moronic as Christianity
@@maryknight4109 No difference. A fraud is a fraud is a fraud. The oldest grift in the world. Religion spoils everything.
The answer is easy: Greater access to information. Not long ago people had no way to check what their religious leaders said.
People have seen through the nonsense that is religion for THOUSANDS of years. It only takes logic, as the ancient Greeks proved. I easily figured it out when I was about 9 years old. It's DEMOCRACY that has allowed it, as people are no longer forced by law to go to church/temple. And that's why fascists are always religious, whether they mean it or are just posing. PUTIN always wears a cross and Trump waved a Bible around like a flag.
There's info backing up religious claims too.
I've seen some absolutely amazing magic shows in Vegas. But never for one second was I convinced actual magic was happening.
To be fair, some people do get convinced.
Centuries ago, what we now call magicians performing magic tricks were considered miracles.
"Where two or more are gathered..."
How quickly they forget it's in the heart not the building.
The decline in Christianity is a BLESSING!
It only came 2,000 years too late.
Wake up call!
It is absolutely the best thing since sliced bread. I can not begin to articulate just how excited I get when I see individuals around me start to realize that they are free to come to their own conclusions about the world and think rationally. I was raised Christian--a devout Christian. But after attending college and having every one of my personal dogmas tested to it's limits, I quickly became atheist. It was the most liberating, most self-actualizing experience of my life. When I first took evolutionary psychology, I absolutely despised my professor for what she taught, and now I consider her to be one of the most important individuals I've ever met. My mother has been a hardcore Christian her entire life, and to now watch my mother finally start to develop her own questions about the world and religion gives me hope for the future of mankind. Not a lot of hope if I'm honest, but a little hope nonetheless.
@@thunderpooch it isn't even 2,000 years old
look at america now lol
The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
More are becoming less religious while those that are remaining are becoming more extreme and violent.
"More are becoming less religious while those that are remaining are becoming more extreme and violent."
This is good, because the moderate, reasonable people who believe in mythical nonsense provide cover for the lunatic extremists. If only fanatics are in churches, suddenly it's shockingly clear how many of them there are and what a big problem they create.
"The church is dying" is the best news of the year.
Ooof... that final "without religion what do we have to hold us together?" was a pretty stark reminder that if religion is the only thing that stops you from just stabbing your neighbour in the face then you have a problem, not a solution.
"God or not, we can lift each other out of this wasteland." Beautifully said. 👏🏻
At 5:23 : "[I mean] without religion what do we have that holds us together?" Idk, how about the _very basic fact _that we are all just human beings, who all essentially want the same thing, namely living a safe, healthy, and happy life, and thus we need to work together, cooperate and compromise in order to achive that?
Atheists do good things for no reason other than wanting to help. Christians do it to go to heaven. Who’s a more Christian like person?
I hear you, but that is quite the assumption about the motives of people of faith. It's akin to a Christian saying non-believers can't have morals without God. Both assumptions are wrong.
@@63yearoldskater "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but, for good people to do evil - that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
@@MooseMaunu I agree with the first part of that, but, the evidence doesn't support the idea that all "good people" who do evil things, do so because of religion. It's just another unfair generalization intended to be an unnecessary insult. My experience was different.
@@63yearoldskater The greatest atrocities man has committed against his fellow man throughout history has been in the name of some "god, religion or faith." The crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the Jewish holocaust 1935-1945, September 11th, 2001, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Muslims vs Hindis in India, The 30 Years War, Bosnians vs. Serbians, Westboro Baptist Church protesting funerals, and on and on and on...
@@MooseMaunu None of those atrocities were committed solely due to religion. Ultimately, they're mostly about money and power.
(Edit: Except the Westboro Baptist Church. They're just monsters.)
I loved this! The Christian couple won’t get me into church but they *did* move me to capitalize the first letter of their religion.
I served a Mormon mission in Las Vegas. Literally preaching Jesus in the desert. I could see the crazy decline in religion back in 2007. Now my wife and I don't raise our kids in any faith, but I am going to teach them about all faiths so they have an appropriate understanding of what the rest of the world believes.
(at 5:16) is the Palisades Presbyterian Church in NY. As a kid my mom walked there almost every Sunday. She married my Dad there in 1946 and had his funeral there in 2004, hers 2017. For her it was singing, sermon and sisterhood.
Nothing wrong with that ❤️
When we don't have church run charities; We don't have services tied to mandatory religious worship.
The entire idea of "charity" is disgusting and should be replaced with services to the poor that lift them OUT of poverty, not maintain them in it. I don't need the rich to toss me their cast-off goods- I want JUSTICE for working people. I want to change society for the better, not allow the rich to feel good about themselves at my expense.
There's a reason Americans don't want faith based charaties spending their tax dollars.
I don't think churches do all the social work this "social scientist" gives them credit for. One of the things I read about was people becoming jaded with their church during the pandemic, seeing it as a taker organization, one that lost interest in them as soon as they were absent and not giving money.
But as a good way for a church to be profitable is to promise, the more you give the more you get, this is probably not surprising.
Maybe that's a good title for the church magazine, "The Profitable Pastor". The best ways to bilk the gullible out of their cash
This guy seems to think Christian churches are some kind of monolith, which is absurd. Some churches legitimately do good work, like a lot of black churches in the south. These are churches who view the battle against racism as part of their faith, who provide social services to communities that are traditionally under-served by the larger region. These are the churches who help their parishioners vote and get vaccinated. They're legitimately charitable organizations, no matter how I personally feel about the religious aspects.
There are also megachurches with millionaire pastors who preach the prosperity gospel. There are churches who organize protests against the basic human rights of members of the LGBTQ community. There are churches that demand ongoing tithes even in the midst of a pandemic-fueled unemployment rise, churches that demand in-person services despite that same pandemic.
As an atheist who tends to view all religion with suspicion, I find myself sometimes forgetting that these differences exist and are really important. Many religious organizations _do_ play important social and welfare roles in their communities. However, in a functional society, churches wouldn't need to take up the burden of caring for the impoverished. That's the responsibility of a decent government.
Indeed. Hence all the Evangelical Screechers (not a typo) having a hissy fit about needing "in person" church services during the pandemic. It's hard to fleece the flock via zoom. They wanted butts in seats, CoVid positive or not, with open wallets at the ready when the plate gets passed. Disgusting.
Televangelists and mega-churches are extremely profitable by preaching the prosperity gospel
The entire idea of "charity" is disgusting and should be replaced with services to the poor that lift them OUT of poverty, not maintain them in it. I don't need the rich to toss me their cast-off goods- I want JUSTICE for working people. I want to change society for the better, not allow the rich to feel good about themselves at my expense. And that goes for the religious too.
Hat-tip for the edit job, guys. It really holds our attention... props and kudos to LV Liberacci 👏 too.
This is a HIGH quality video that flows well and has great structure, refreshing to watch well crafted media instead of IN YOUR FACE content
At some point you’ve got to grow up and stop believing in fairy tales. Because..
“Those that can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” - Voltair
And they certainly have. The list of atrocities committed in the name of deities is sadly endless.
u probably belive we landed on the moon
@@KillenEMsoftly lol. You're doing a perfect imitation of the poor deluded fools who haven't any capacity for critical thinking.
Religion spoils everything.
Objectively you could argue that in the information age we are more informed even intelligent ( that may be a stretch for Americans ) and we are able to look at everything from any perspective without the constraints of localized information and local influence. We can follow the money trail, the corruption, the tax avoidance, and the many excesses of those who have parasitically lived off the ignorance and generosity of the gullible and faithful. We don't all see the deception and greed, but generation after generation have had enough cynical outcomes and contradictions bourn out that religion to no longer falls for that hold of fear of consequence and social clout of organized religion. Time we stood up and faced reality and left superstitions and worship where they belong, in the history of humankind and societal evolution. Miracles have an unfortunate habit of being here late and are unprovable.
As an American you are not wrong. It is also Bernie and the justice "democrats" like AOC get such negative coverage from both the left and right. They are trying to get big business out of lawmaking . However the media is owned by those very same businesses so Americans are never getting the truth.
I used to think I was democrat.. if I watched news it was MSNBC, or CNN. I voted for Obama and always gave to charity. But then in 2018-19 I accidentally came across TYT. They are "liberal media " they fact check before giving news and they call out bad behavior on both sides of the aisle.
It was in this time that some things that should have been big news with lots of coverage didn't even get mentioned in mainstream media.
Most successful and happy countries are irreligious. There's room for religion in certain people's lives, but many can do even better without it.
The role religion has in bringing different people together, is no different than a workplace, youth organizations, volunteering organizations, etc. Remember religions were and still are responsible for separation and estrangement between people...
And several of them have official "State Churches"...
It's kind of funny, less religious but having official State Churches
@@bigminks364
Why don't you move to Afghanistan?
I mean, if you enjoy living in a country where the Abrahamic god plays a significant role in how the country is governed, then you will undoubtedly feel at home there!
@@bigminks364 Love your enemies.
You're American & one of us lol, that article you read was a fake
@@grandunifier3169
Which article?
I rejected religion for spirituality in my teens and never looked back. I have no use for religion.
I feel like I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again but: if there is a sufficiently reliable social safety net set up by the govt, there wouldn’t be a need for charity because we can take care of our own people without stooping towards guilting people to help the needy. Our tax dollars should already help those most in need, yet somehow it doesn’t and that’s why Americans NEED charities
Thank you.
It's like assuming a person taking more medications or medicine is automatically healthier than a person taking fewer of them because their reasoning is that since medication helps someone treat an illness or condition, taking more medication means more treatment for whatever illnesses or conditions they might have. However, if a person doesn't have any illnesses or conditions, they won't need to take medication in the first place, since their body is already doing just fine.
Yes, and the help becomes so horribly random without a legal structure. Do you "deserve" help (looking right, acting right, having the right skin color, the right religion etc.)?
The entire idea of "charity" is disgusting and should be replaced with services to the poor that lift them OUT of poverty, not maintain them in it. We the People have a RIGHT to these services and don't need to go begging like Oliver Twist to our "betters" for their miserable "charity". I don't need the rich to toss me their cast-off goods- I want JUSTICE for working people. I want to change society for the better, not allow the rich to feel good about themselves at my expense. And that goes for the religious too.
The notion that churches are "dying every day" makes my heart sing. American Christianity is a poison that many people, especially the young, want no part of.
Ethics and Philosophy are a good healthy alternative. Religion doesn’t have to be the be all, end all of all existence.
Getting rid of religion would be a giant step towards a much better country.
"The loss of religion is a threat to society itself?" The loss of religion would mean no more honor killings, suicide bombings, or the inciting motivation for whack job nationalists we have in the states. The world would be massively closer to being a paradise without religion. That pastor seems like a nice guy, but his religiosity has warped his ability to see the world as it is.
I agree with you that a lot of evil would end without religious belief, but lack of religion is not necessarily the solution. The Communist Democides of the 20th century (Soviet gulags, the Great Leap Forward, the Cambodian Democide, etc.) were all perpetrated by governments and people who were, ostensibly, non-religious. Now, we could argue that their political ideologies and nationalisms were a form of dogmatic thinking connected with some kind of spirituality has similar characteristics to religion, but it's not religion. And when most people reject religion, they replace it with some other aspirational belief and many of those (like the Communist beliefs that led to the 20th Century Democides) are just as harmful if not moreso than the religions whose places they usurped.
Before being so quick to smash down our current societal architecture, at least take a second to draw up a blueprint for tomorrow's.
@@oremfrien (Sigh, I had to delete my initial comment twice, due to youtube messing it up. So you'll probably see this before the one I typed before this) Also, I think arguing that most folks that deconvert just trade their irrational beliefs in for other irrational beliefs is problematic. In my experience, the folks that do this are just still on their deconversion journey. Their religious condition is so strong, they can't give it up cold turkey. But I've conversed with many of these people and one thing that's almost always clear is that they have a better grasp on morality than they did when morality was just something defined by an authority figure. When they thought ANYTHING can be moral if that authority figure said it was. I've never heard of anyone in the deconversion process going on to do the sorts of horrific things theists often get up to. But as that's my own personal experience, I'm willing to change my mind on that if you have a citation. I'll look into it myself, too, just in case.
@@rikorobinson Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but it appears like your experience primarily concerns deconversion in Anglo-America or Western Europe, where values are much more strongly reinforced by secular institutions than religious ones and where critical thinking is, regardless of efficacy, actually taught. In most parts of the world, that's not the case, which is why the quick removal of religion that happened under Communism solved none of the dogmatic authority problems that deconverts you have encountered (per your words) profess.
Now, to the extent you want statistics on the percentage of decoverts who grasp tightly onto another dogmatic ideology as soon as they ditch religion, I can't provide you raw numbers like that, but I can show you strong correlations. One of the best studied cases is the rise of the Quebec Independence Movement in the 1960s and 1970s whose rise occurred almost contemporaneously with the precipitous drop in Quebeckers identifying as Roman Catholics. In my view, these people simply swapped one ridiculous set of beliefs for another ridiculous set of beliefs. Now, the Quebec Independence Movement may not be as deleterious as the Roman Catholic Church, but that's not relevant, the point is that we have people swapping one set of ridiculous beliefs about how the world should be for another one, both based on identity markers more than present issues. We can also correlate the rise of protest movements in the United States in the 1960s and 2010s with the sharp declines of religiosity in those periods, but this has been far less concretely studied.
I am only asking that we have some plan as to what we are going to do as a society to not just become partisan individualists in the wake of a mass deconversion. The Scandinavian countries have tight-knit communities and a strong communal integration which prevents the worst of these problems, but even Muslim immigration in 2015 caused massive societal unrest, which shows that these solutions are imperfect and certainly non-viable for countries like the United States which is constantly seeing large inflows of people from across the world.
@@oremfrienThanks for explaining! I have to admit, it's not something I given much thought, so I thank you for bringing it up. As a person that was raised without religion, it never occurred to me that something would be needed at all, other than the rejection of irrational claims. But that's obviously bias on my part, since I have no idea what it's like to deconvert. It's something I will give some thought and do some research during my nightly info binge tonight. Thanks for giving me something interesting to think about :-)
@@rikorobinson No worries. I am an Ex-Christian and I noticed myself that after I converted, I threw myself more-fully into ethnic nationalism and heritage study than I had before. (My family is Assyrian, so it was Assyrianism and Assyriology.) The more time I spent in that world, the more than I realized that I was not alone in replacing religion with some other aspirational goal.
I am curious as a born-atheist, what kind of aspirational beliefs do you have or do you simply have something like a Buddhist acceptance of reality as broken and suffering that need not be improved or altered?
many of us nones as I just learned we are called just don't believe in talking snakes and water walkers rising from the dead. You know.. magic
Exactly. I don't feel like going to church every Sunday with a bunch of adults who believe in magic.
Don't forget the incredible zoo boat either. 🙄
I believe in water walkers and people who turns water into wine. I've seen them in Las Vegas!
It's some amazing magic tricks.
It’s just a big mythical lie that’s been used for centuries to keep parishioners obedient and dedicated to the enterprise that is religion.
@@mattmayo3539
Been saying that for decades!
And being an atheist is a no starter for someone running for office.
The, "Without religion" phrase is just the start of the argument that ends with, "By that, I mean without MY religion."
I was brought up Episcopal, discovered Buddhism at age 16--it was 1968, and that was otherwise one messed-up year--and I'm still a Buddhist now. That's not going to change after all this time...
Brought up Catholic/Protestant, so of course I became an atheist. Heard the Dhama at 21, 45 years later, the truth is still the truth. No god, no king, no salvation, no excuses, just truth.
Last time I went to a food bank they said I was only allowed to accept their help if I was a Christian.
So how did that help?
And that directly violates what Jesus told us to do using the Parable of the Good Samaritan.
wartgin Well yeah I figured if that they were breaking their own rules it should be okay to pretend I was a Christian. I was brought up Christian so I’ve read the bible. A lot of the morals are good but there’s a lot of stuff in there that’s not so good.
I literally can’t believe the dogma so I can’t be Christian. I do like a lot of the morals and parables though so I know “the rules”.
Beautiful!! As a ‘Noner’ I wholeheartedly agree!!!
Trp is our. Chosen. One. A reprobate who loves hookers but also loves tax evasions and fraudlies etc etc etc.
As someone who is also a social scientist who studies "None-ification" this is a fascinating look for me on how others might view and interpret my work. It is also really interesting to see the how people are responding to the video. Some have thoughts in line with what research shows us, others less so. This video and people's reactions to it are surprisingly invigorating to me that my research matters and people outside my field find it interesting.
To me, the thing that stood out about the interview subject was that he was not only a "social scientist" (of undetermined expertise and training) but also a pastor. To me, that seems like a really bizarre combination, as my career as a biologist is absolutely a full-time job and I would not have the freedom to pursue an additional career like ministry. It honestly feels like there should be some sort of conflict-of-interest here, like a professional rat-catcher putting out a study on how high the rat population is and someone should really do something about it.
Either way, it seems like being a pastor would somewhat reduce the researcher's potential objectivity here. Thoughts?
I can absolutely assure you that comparative theology and non-religious people is definitely an interesting subject for plenty of folk. But most of us who are interested in it are purely hobbyists, relying on the insights that the intelligent people like you gather, analyse and publish.
Please do keep up the great work! ❤️
@@jospinner1183 "Social scientist" is just a blanket way of referring to either sociologists, social psychologists, political scientists, and couple other closely related fields that study society. (Its like referring to the "psychical sciences" but most people know what chemistry, biology, etc are so that term is less used.) Burge is a political scientist. He works as an assistant professor Eastern Illinois University which as far as I know is a small university, they probably don't have the best pay which may explain his second job.
For those in the social sciences second jobs are not unheard of. Many will work both at a school and with a nonprofit, the government, and other institutions as a means of enhancing their access to data or being an activists on a topic they care about. I know a few people that study religion who are pastors - being a pastor doesn't mean you run your own church, Burge could simply be a secondary pastor.
As for the question of objectivity. In the social sciences we view objectivity differently than in the physical sciences - simply because we cannot separate ourselves from society. There is always going to be a bias in our work even if it is just in the form of what we study. I am an atheist who studies atheists - am I unable to be objective? On the physical science level yes, but on the social science level as long as I show my work when I write up my methods and am convincing in my analysis I'm am good to go.
Now Burge's book I will admit does have a bias because he wrote this book for fellow pastors. (I bought it for my own work before this segment aired and read parts of it though overall it wasn't useful.) However, where he presents his analysis of the data and the data itself he is highly objective. Since the book itself isn't for fellow social scientists I give it a pass. I do actually commend him because he doesn't spend the book trying to tell readers how to "keep people religious" but rather understands that secularization is going to happen whether we like it or not. He instead tells his readers that their work with communities is still important and that they should continue "preaching biblical truths that cut across political lines".
The book isn't meant to be objective in its conclusions but the data it presents is. Now I cannot speak for Burge's other work, I haven't read anything published in peer-reviewed journals from him. Could he be super biased towards religion sure? I have no idea. But to assume he is simply because of his status as a pastor is just wrong.
(Also I realize I probably didn't need to write this much...sorry...)
@@EthanKristopherHartley Thanks man!
Yes, please continue to study us Nones.
I became an atheist almost eight years ago, and it was one of my only good decisions.
Only? You should give yourself more credit.
no dude. never tell. never . they WILL come for us one day. your whole family wil hate you. u can loose your job, and friends. Lie. just lie. they do. noone cares if u lie. usa is more welcoming of liars racist and bigots then they will ever be to you now.
It's not so much the lack of Christianity, but the lack of communial interaction. What essentially needs to develop, is community centres where people can meet up to talk in and interact in a friendly setting. Have food, arts and crafts stuff, make it a nice welcoming place.
The more of US that doesn't "believe" in an invisible guy in the sky, the better it is for all of US.
People who believe in a god believe everything happens for a reason, it doesn't. People who believe in a god believe there is a better afterlife, there isn't.
In Germany food banks - or Der Tafel - is a volunteer Association.. not a Church Organization - so do not worry if the churches disappear - People will still organize and do it without them.
The entire idea of "charity" is disgusting and should be replaced with services to the poor that lift them OUT of poverty, not maintain them in it. I don't need the rich to toss me their cast-off goods- I want JUSTICE for working people
@@lorraineclark4413 And what are you personally doing to help your cause..spouting without the back up of joining in .. a so called volunteering for the cause. Do yo think the people who run the food banks are not in with the government? Oh they are . and they do not pull their punches.
Without religion what do we have to hold us together??? All religion does is tear us apart, for gods sake even the different religions can't agree to agree!!
Great well pace video 👍 nicely done'
On the off chance that someone from the program reads comments... I would like to donate to this cause. However, I am not comfortable with entering credit card info on You Tube... is there a way you can set this up for either some other payment system or use a click through to a different site?
Thank you.
What do we have that will hold us together? Love! Get rid of the judgment and just love each other.
Praise my splif! Keeps me calm, on and on!
The problem with depending on religiosos for charity to the poor is they always are angling for people to say the right prayer to get their sandwich. I was a churchgoner in ninth grade, and I just turned 67. This trend is not sudden; it's been a long time building.
Out of curiosity, when did you stop going to church? It seems like your generation (Baby Boomers) were the first to really begin leaving organized religion in great numbers, and I'm curious about your perspective on this. (For what it's worth, I'm a 41-year-old lifelong atheist who was raised by secular Boomer parents. They were both the first non-churchgoers in their families.)
I'm 73, raised Baptist, doubts by age 4. Began with their attitude toward girls and women, all the animal sacrifice and Yahweh loving the smell of burnt flesh, all the moral stories that seemed immoral, and the hypocrisy. Teaching "love thy neighbor but hate the Catholic" when my neighbors on all sides were Catholic. Then learning about so many denominations (and watching my church split), so many religions (and notions of "God"), and home sick one Sunday watching First Baptist on tv (only churches available) with Dr Criswell (sp?) standing on the front steps declaring no black person would enter "his church" (whose church!!!?). They denied that ever happened for years later, but I saw it and heard it from the church's own video equipment (can't blame mainstream media). Out of school, looking for "the truth", attended a New Thought church awhile, was Wiccan for years (eclectic), eventually realizing every religion that drew me had a strong atheist tendency because I was and had long been atheist. Still fascinated by religion/mythology/sociology/psychology, no longer "looking" for "something", still living in the Bible Belt, still an animal-loving tree-hugging never-married home-owning progressive.
Sorry for the Wall of Text, but you expressed curiosity about Boomer journeys. It was a time of rapid change, new religious introductions and inventions, hope and optimism and science fiction becoming science fact. The world of Star Trek beckoned.
The biggest homeless and addiction charity in our area requires people attend weekly church service or you are booted from the program. I refuse to donate to them based on that alone.
@@amandabeachum188 I feel that. We only have one fully secular shelter in my city, so all the LGBTQ homeless folks tend to line up to try to get into it. The Christian shelters just aren't guaranteed to be safe for them.
@@jospinner1183 😔
Q. When we get rid of religion what do we replace it with?
A. When we cure cancer what do we replace it with?
🤣🤣🤣
Me and my sisters just had this conversation, that we've never found another community like the church. A lot of us after we left evangelicalism, we tried a bunch of religious groups. None of them felt right.
Honestly I'd actually really like to be religiously affiliated, as a materialist and humanist. To go fellowship with people, share my thoughts, my favorite songs, do charity work together, argue about the interpretation of stories. I just haven't found such a group yet.
*Someone make an atheist church please.*
If you haven't already, you could look into Unitarian Universalism. A lot of humanists and atheists fit well into those spaces, even though not all UUs are atheists. Wishing you luck in finding the community you desire
Organized religion should not be in politics.
What I got from this is this: Thanks to Trump, he's destroying religion as well.
He didn't destroy it, he just did what he always does - made it about him. Now we've got Evangelicals acting like he's the second coming, and it's pretty effective at making those with a more skeptical bent to see how dogma shifts in response to social conditions.
This decline is a long time happening, it more due Jerry Falwell, Trump was just fuel on the already burning fire
@@geraldgrenier8132 This is simply another arena where the US lags behind it's economic peers, the way we are with science, education, politics, social services, climate change polity, etc.
I didnt have to pay much attention to this “expert” to know hes biased af🗣
We do not need religion to bring us together. If anything religion divides us cz many churches literally tell their people to not socialize with non believers etc.
everyone knows the number one conflict makers in gatherings is politics and religion.
I'm concerned about declines in social organizations in general, rather than just religious ones.
It was interesting to see what people thought of churches, particularly the woman who was complaining about being told not to wear makeup etc. There are plenty of churches who do not do that kind of thing.
Far too few.
Good!!!
We need a NONE Church! The only thing I miss about being involved in organized religion is the 'community' at church.
It's called the library. We can learn about how fish tend to eat every day (Jonah), the sun never stopped in the sky, a donkey probably didn't talk, and that the exodus might not have actually happened. One can also organize events from the library.
@@The_Other_Ghost "It's called the library."
But it's not because we don't go there every week. And people who go there aren't told what to think for an hour straight. Indoctrination is a weapon they can use, but we can't.
I think that's universalism.
Maybe Pastor Ryan could get some job re-training. He's still young, and if he wants to unify something, we always need welders.
why.. he wont get people to praise him as much .wil he?? after all he talks to god. he is very special. wonder how many kids he has giving extra attetion too:\
I think this also ignores the numerous scandals that have rocked religions over the past several decades. Younger people are more aware of them and less likely to accept "we're all sinners' as an answer.
Brilliantly done
My soul's fine. Thanks for asking.
Wait...so has anyone tried lobbying the GOP for fair employment issues on the basis that a stable 5 or 4 day work week that can pay the bills would make it easier for people to go to church? 🤔
Really enjoyed this piece, and definitely going to buy Burge's book.
I would also highly recommend books by Phil Zuckerman if you are interested in this topic from a social science standpoint. Burge's book is a pretty good summary of recent literature but Zuckerman provides more in-depth looks at non-religious across the US and does comparative analyses to Scandinavian countries. Burge's book does also have a religious bias given that he is a pastor and Zuckerman comes at this topic from a more secular standpoint.
@@nicsnort Zuckerman is great! I've only read "faith no more", but i can see what you mean in terms of finding a balance between the secular and the religious biases that are inherent in every such study.
Now I want to catch up on his more recent work, thank you for bringing him up! 🙂
@@elijahcumpton9926 :) naturally. Faith No More is a great book and I am using a lot of Zuckerman's work in my current research, so I'm a fan haha. He has a new book coming out sometime next year co-authored with a couple other sociologists that I heard him talk about at a conference recently. Its about the secularization of society but I forget the title.
But that's socialism! /s
..... no.. none has ever suggested a living wage.... its never happend.. :\