Do You NEED to UPGRADE Fasteners for Your Harley Engine? Fastener Tech and Logic to Help You Decide
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- if you're trying to decide to upgrade to stainless steel or Chrome fasteners for your custom engine build this is the video for you.
I am a Plumber by trade, and from time to time, we work with Stainless Steel bolts, washers, and nuts.
With large Bronze flat faced flanges, meeting up with another flange, be it bronze, brass, or copper, these large flanges usually utilize 8 Stainless Steel bolts, along with S/S washers,and nuts. With a fiber(usually) gasket in between both flanges.
We always use Anti-Seize Compound on the bolt threads before install. My boss demonstrated how these S/S bolts and nuts, can gall the threads.
Could NOT remove the nut!
Thanks Kevin. The machinists handbook is a very valuable tool. I've used it for years.
As much as stainless bolts look good, no corrosion, they are softer/weaker than mild steel.. grade five to eight. Good use in cosmetic applications, but not for heavy retention! I’ve always used the proper length wrench to tighten my bolts, with, adequate pressure on the tool 100 foot pounds/110 who cares.. after a few years of riding Everything leaks! I think head bolts, con rod torques are important, not primary cover bolts.. my opinion. After 50 years of servicing my vehicles, the only problems I’ve had is if I let someone else work on it! Sayin…love your channel, just my two bits worth!
I would not hesitate to go with upgraded Fastners, the visual benefits are enough for me let alone the real advantage of doing it.
So which anti sieze compound should I use on my SS primary cover bolts ?
Thread lockers like Loctite are very poorly understood by most of us. How do they work? 2 things are required for the product to solidify into a hard plastic:
-Absence of air (thats why it doesn't solidify inside of the bottle)
-Presence of "active metal ions"
Steel, copper, brass have "active metal ions"
Metals like stainless, aluminum, magnesium and inconel DO NOT have "active metal ions."
If you place a stainless bolt in an aluminum case, the Loctite never sets up.
The manufacturers produce a primer that will activate the Loctite, but be aware, this causes it to set in several minutes instead of 6-12 hours.
There is a whole lot more information and misinformation out there. Probably the other more important thing to note is the formulations (or clolors) are diameter specific. It's not that "Blue is medium and Red is permanent." You need to apply the correct formulation to the fasteners being used.
Great presentation, Kevin.
Interesting. So, after re-torquing there’s no loosening of these bolts without loctite? How is this accomplished with a lubricant instead of locking compound?
Kevin, good to see you sir and glad you got the time to make another excellent & informative video. Thanks!
Im always on the fence with locktite, especialy going into aluminum, and if your going to disassemble it more times that you should dicking around with things. internal parts I generally do, especially if the service manual calls for it, primary cover, cam chest cover.... nah.
Love the detail, I've been in fabrication industry for a while and agree totally, so many people do not understand what Stainless really is.
Thank you, for sharing the wisdom. You’ve dispelled a lot of misinformation in this video. Your, “Engine Forensics,” is most appreciated. In the event of a 2023 114, what would cause burning rubber smell, and potential other damage.?
I’ll take stainless please!
Hello Kevin. First one of your videos I've caught in a while but I'm glad to see that it looks like you've got things up and running in the new shop. I really enjoyed the shop build videos but they did made me feel like I was getting old because I could not have kept pace with the work schedule you set for yourself. Back to the subject at hand. Harley seems to have had a problem with head leaks on the M-8's and went so far as to put out a tech update and changed the way the head bolts were to be torqued down. I don't know how effective the change was because my newly rebuilt M-8 had to be tore apart twice due to a rear head leak. Torque patterns, it would seem, play a large part in the sealing process as well as the fasteners being used. I don't wrench on these things as much as I used to so the reminder that there are other products besides loctite that can and should be used on certain fasteners was a welcome reminder. I've never been a fan of chrome but I love the stainless stuff. I'm looking forward to your videos from the new location.
Great info, as always Kevin. ARP it’s!
Thanks for that Kev. I generally don’t use lock tight when assembling. Where I can fit a spring washer I will but if it looks unsightly I’ll just plumb for a fastener with probably a washer underneath. I sometimes just reduce the OD of the washer for aesthetic value. I use anti seize and torque up to the mid point value as you suggested. To date, 6 years of running a Softail and 3 years of running a Dyna I have never had anything fall off, even rear drive pulleys. I always assumed that HD used so much lock tight because it was easier and cheaper for assembly at manufacture. I going to have a look at my Machinery’s Handbook now though!!
Kevin, thank you👍once again very very informative and helpful😎
Thank you so much for the info. Any recommendations on literature about evolution and older Harley Davidson engine repair
really glad to hear about this, does this also refer to the head bolts that are said to break on the m8, thank you john
Hi Kevin, what are your thoughts on using Titanium fasteners, very cool looking. Low weight, very corrosion resistant
love to watch ur videos i learn so much, u take care yourself thanks
I except chrome plated bolts where it is visible))) 12 points looks very industrial
I'm looking for an apprenticeship for motor building. Would you be willing to teach?
and 90% of the home mechanics do not have a full set of 6pt sockets... they throw a 12pt socket on a 6pt bolt, reef on it, and wonder why they rounded it.
What's the address?
Why have you moved to A new building? A d are you hiring..lol
At 9:51, you mentioned that you "prime". Would you elaborate on this please? I'm curious what you mean. For context, I absolutely understand proper Loctite type, chasing the threads, accuracy and calibration of torque wrenches. The priming part I was unsure of.
Rocker arm bolts. Expansion and contration clatter. I find the shank diameter is way too small, causing top end clatter. Your thoughts and suggestions??? On 103, 110 twinn cam.i know there is a bushing kit out there.
almost the very first thing i do, for two reasons. the first is convenience. i traid all my torque heads on the outside of the bike to allen heads i use grade 8s . i never have to worry about goo on yhe treads, they look cool against the chrome, and it greatly reduces my travel tool kit. second those magnesium bolts that come on modern harleys are total crap. bonus third like i said greatly reduces the tool i carry . i need a 3/8 drive two socket sets , i need a 3/4 drive and three sockets. a screw driver, and i stll go with a back up set of allens and two tier irons with that kit i can do anything i need to do on the road including change stator, ect....
Ditto to Bronsonwhite611. There are multiple issues with lock tite compounds into aluminum with stainless fasteners. Also rules about size and color of locktite. All these factors come into play for a leak free and long lasting assembly. Great presentation . Well done Kevin,gotta love ARP 12 points.
Cool information.
Thanks for adding the cost factor into the video at the end.
I'll be watching for the replies 😊
I thought you should not use stainless with aluminum because with my experience as a tool maker the stainless will corrode the aluminum and damaged damn near fuse together.
Replacing grade 8 steek fasteers with grade 2 stainless. only for low stress applications. I trust you have considered galvanic action.
Thank you the best explanation I've heard about using ARP bolts.
Yep. In the old days before mono toque head gaskets had to re torque the head after a certain amount of miles
If you got the extra cash ARP all the way
You don't mention the type of stainless, 304, 316, etc. And then you can get into duplex, blah, blah.
I know you're speaking of engine building, but your fans should be aware while stainless has fine tensile strength the shear is lacking.
Meaning, stainless for a foot peg is not a good idea.
I use 316 stainless in places on my old Pan. Most usually replacing a rusted mild steel bolt set.
Fantastic. Thanx uncle Kevin.
I always say I would rather hear something twice than not at all 😊
Safe rides 👍🤜
When you say this . I am getting an unusual vibration. I had my bike sit for a year while my interests were upgrading a boat.
A while ago I asked about compensator. Which is best. We worked that out being Darkhorse. I haven't changed tyres as of yet. At hwy speed I don't feel this vibration. Only in built up traffic at slower speeds. I coasted down a steep hill with the engine off and had no vibration. Next was engine fasteners. They were tight. I don't know what's next. I do have a baker chain adjuster that may need adjusting.
I've been surprised at how many comments the ARP bolts on my skunk have drawn. I didn't think people looked that closely.
I like Stainless Steel for exhaust nuts
Didn't know that. Thanks
Good information, thanks.
Thank you
Agree on all points.
In regards to the 12 point stripping out, I’m reminded of that old quote “Every machine is a smoke machine, if you operate it wrong enough!”… 🤣🤣🤓
Awesome video! There is so much to know about fasteners that is often overlooked/neglected. Especially for stainless. Doing the proper steps to prep the threads and which compound maximizes the effectiveness of the fastener is very important.
About 12 point polished stainless fasteners for all the covers etc on the engine, they are amazing. Easy to clean, always look great because they never get crusty (at least that I’ve ever seen). Harley should seriously use polished stainless fasteners on the engine from the factory. Let’s be honest, new Harleys aren’t cheap, and it’s really stupid that even after one year their crappy zinc bolts can get all crusty and not look the greatest. Even seen them start to rust a little after just one year. Total crap. Stainless is the way they should do it so that the pricey new motorcycle looks as nice as possible for as long as possible. My bike has 12 point polished stainless just about everywhere that is external. Wouldn’t have it any other way.
Thank you, this was very interesting and informative. Great job👍
I agree with you totally, I used all arp bolts, cases, rocker boxes, trans cover etc. I did not use any loctite on any of them. The fasteners cost me a small fortune but like you I like the 12 point. Great video.
I was replacing my chrome fasteners with new chrome but one turn, and they rust. Now I only buy stainless.
I would love to hear a breakdown on upgrading fasteners, molecular benefits, and plus/minuses on using SS hardware on pans. I'd also like to hear the proper inserts to use for if you have a stripped out tranny bolt in original HD pan as those materials may or may not be better manufactured depending who you listen to. Thanks
Thanks for the info! I always enjoy your videos.
Excellent tutorial Kevin… I’m huge on fasteners… using the correct fastener for the correct application…
Great video Kevin, insightful as ever
Enjoyed your information Kevin, thank you. Cleared up a lot of questions regarding the torquing with different grade fasteners and various thread lockers and anti-seize. As always, appreciate you taking time out of the day for us.
Very well said as you noticed I changed all the bolts in my bike from one end to the other with 12 point stainless bolts!!!! I even demanded that you use 12 point stainless steel bolts in the case to replace the bolts I could not get to because I didn't want to pull the engine to just change the bolts!!
For anyone with an M8, here's what I have HAD to upgrade BEFORE 15,000 miles on my 2020 FXST 107ci: intake manifold (began leaking very bad at around 9k miles), and Compensator. Stock comp began rattling and making the bike sound like it was falling apart at idle, at around 13k miles.
Cheers Mate, that was all good oil ( info ) !
Interesting, but I can see the logic. You look more rested than in previous vids, hope everything is going well.
I had loctite block a piston oiler…. Never again. ARP or bust! Great video Kevin.
Thanks for sharing, clockmaker in the UK.
Quality and availability of UNC chaser taps isn't what it used to be. I built recon engines with old school engineers 40 years ago,a decade in R&D electronics. Going through your catalogue of content along with the factory service manual before I take anything much apart on a '99 TC88 FXDL. It's had previous owners who were not diligent in research or due care but has survived to be a viable project to restore while conserving some character.
Only done 25k miles which comes with it's own issues. Been stored in high humidity/low temperature at some point.
Had to let my 1340 FXDL go but life has been kind enough to allow me another along with UA-cam to which you kindly contribute.
All the best for the future.
Stainless steel is shiny. I like shiny.
Great information can you make a video on timing a carburetor evolution engine please
Love arp stuff they make great bolts. Their prices aren’t that high either I needed to do exhaust manifolds on my gmc truck arp manifold bolts cheaper than the oem bolts. When you order the bolts for engine builds do they have a fastener kit or do you just measure each bolt and order accordingly?
Stainless steel has a tendency to gall when assembled. That's a con, not a pro. Stainless steel has less elasticity than carbon steel, which is what makes a bolt actually work, you stretch the bolt a measured amount, (which is why we use torque wrenches!) and it will try to return to its original length. If you stretch a bolt to its "yield point", it becomes measurably longer, loses its elasticity (and its main function!), and it reduces the tensile strength of the bolt, often leading to failure. Not a good thing. When I assemble anything, I like carbon steel fasteners. I will give stainless an appearance and corrosion prevention advantage when used in non-critical fastening situations, but when I want to "Upgrade" my fasteners, I move up to a grade five or grade eight carbon steel bolt. In this one circumstance, proper chromium plating of carbon steel bolts is your friend. Historically, chromium plating was used to protect metal parts from oxidation, not for appearance. But then, H-Ds have become a showcase for chrome plated parts.
Again, great attention to detail by Kevin. I hope to have him build me a 117 for my 2016 street glide some day.
Does the length of torque wrench become a factor when torquing bolts.(Example) 1/4” torque wrench with adapter for 1/2” socket, vs 3/8” torque wrench with 1/2” socket? Does digital factor in vs click torque wrenches?
No leaks??? What is this dark magic you speak of??!! Kevin, I love your channel man, I love your attention to detail. I can not tell you how many people think I’m crazy for “being anal”. “Too slow” “worry too much”. Dumbass’s.. people are in such a rush these days they would rather have a broken part and fail than wait 5 more minutes. 😎 They definitely don’t have the time to learn useless specifics the dissimilar metals and anti seize…?…what’s that? Anyway. You are appreciated.
I came from the aviation world, especiall military go fast airplanes. We used SS in aluminum some, grade 8 more. I was a jet mechanic and stainless was used alot especially hot section. It could take the heat. And you're right, no locktite. If it went into aluminum it had anti seize and if it was flange it had SS lock nuts. Where grade 8 was used it was saftey wired. But that was in the 70s and 80s. I understand the new jets don't have near as much s/w. When you build mine I am more into a very well built sleeper. I come from the pan and shovel world.....where chrome wont get you home. That said ARP is the best in the business. We will talk. What is your backlog right now? Thank you Kevin, Happy Thanksgiving to your family and crew. Be safe.
Electrolysis occurs between two metals only with the addition of DC voltage.
Galvanic action occurs when two dissimilar metals are exposed to moisture.
Stainless and aluminum create a galvanic reaction when exposed to moisture.
Electrolysis between Stainless and aluminum only occurs when you add DC current across the two metals with moisture present.
Lifter cuff bolts on a M8. Stainless, steel and Loctite? I know stock bolts with Loctite can be a bear to remove. Recommendations.
One more reason to target the middle of torque range is to compensate for torque wrench accuracy tolerances.
How about a video about external breather and vented oil filler caps? Worth while or snake oil?
My service manual on my 04 calls for 96 inches torque on the covers will out lock tight.
Got em, love em really nice touch, and they look great. Thanks, Bob.
Kevin you blow my mine every time with your knowledge I thought about bolts and tighten them I had an idea about what said and I have to agree with on that it is funny when think of something then you say what I was think awesome keep up the amazing work
great information and tech tips
Well, I'd buy a Baxter ARP bolt kit for my bike if they ever were available
How about those Skunkworks timing covers?
Interesting stuff, always wondered why there was a range of torque settings.
They do look the goods. Thanks for the information Kevin 👍🏻🇦🇺
They need something besides thr shit 12 point headed bolts that rust before the first set of tires I'd replaced
Ive always cleaned thread holes. Unless you cant see it from my house
Great topic. What is your opinion on induction heating fasteners
How could one purchase the fasteners?
Hello Mr Kevin Baxter, I have been watching your show now for about two years and watched your process in moving your shop. Now being an old machinest myself I do appreachate your tech tips and watc them each time I can. So do take care of yourself always. God Bless you and your show.. Richard (bikerclaus) Wilcox
Excellent video Kevin thanks for the information
Another great video
Great job Kevin
Kevin, man you’re dead on with bolt content.. Thanks for video!
Keep them coming..Glad to hear your making chips in the new shop …
Seems I heard the reasoning as to why Harleys were known to create oil puddles……..retourqing (sp) after locktite use ?
Hi Kevin I am an owner of a 1987 1340cc Heritage I bought in Nov. '22 after riding the unit for a short time maybe four weeks the thirty year old showed it's weakness first was saturation between the transmission and primary, while riding a that time I felt a small earthquake under the seat at that time I was unsure then I saw the wetness in that area.front exhaust stud had been helicoil the top one I'm having a ball got new s&s low compression heads thanks for the info on fasteners cheers
Great content Kevin. There is no substitute for quality especially when you look at the cost of a new motor build. Thanks
Good video. Just checked my invoice and I see that I am getting these. Just got my Skunk
Series hoodie. It fits good and looks really good. I believe Loctite and the excessive amount of it, has caused problem on the M8 tappet bolts. I saw were you used a some kind of hand held device to heat these up to keep from breaking them.
Hi Mr. Baxter this is Mike Joe's I used To Do that all the time. I still do it even on my bike but even on all my injury Bills. I used to build all the viacin everything like that as I used to blow out Chase to threads in the used either copper coated or never sees or not copraco but it's a copper base never sees on all the head both stuff like that but I would run running in the engine after subtly. And then go through and check all the torch's on top and.
If I was questioning the bottom half I would pull the injury to good radio pull the Pan and go through record the bottom if it didn't sound right. But most time I didn't have touch bottom in it. But I always talk to top half because that would always move have a nice day.
Your volume is getting lower every video
also how much to build me a 128 on my 22 fatboy including heads again thank you john