Szell recorded Dvorak 8 three times, the first in mono with the Concertgebouw. Their woodwind playing is stupendous, and the sound is not bad. Check out the "quacking" woodwinds at the end of the scherzo.
The ones I knew were the Columbia Cleveland and the Concertgebouw. I'd forgotten that he'd done that later one with Cleveland on EMI. The Concertgebouw definitely gets a bit more contrast in orchestral sonority, but I don't recall it being distinctively different in any other way. As Dave says, he knows what he wants and (almost) always gets what he wants.
There’s a Szell recording with the Czech Phil and the Eroica in good sound that fits into this discussion that was released the other year. It’s interesting to hear how his approach worked with the Czech Phil sound as opposed to the Cleveland sound.
Archipel has released in streaming last year the same works in concert + the third piano concerto with Firkusny. In wonder if it is the same performance?
I love this disc, it's so good to hear Szell with the Czech Phil. As for the Brahms, I take what you say Dave. What I especially like is the finale, he really goes flat out in the final pages, quite wonderful. Also, as usual with Szell we can hear the contra bassoon in the finale, that's a deal breaker for me for any performance of this symphony. So many conductors seem to ignore it.
100% agreement. A friend of mine referred to him (his recordings) as "Good Ol' George." It wasn't a slander but also not exactly a compliment either. With Szell, you have a good idea what you are going to get. It will be meticulously groomed, wonderfully executed, and probably conservatively interpreted, sometimes leaving you wanting a bit more than what he delivers.
Dave, I think you made a great point. It depends on the conductor and how he/she responds to studio and live recording. Being human conductors vary in their response to both or either. Szell is remarkably consistent in both, but his Tokyo concert in 1970, recorded live, is very special. He was terminally ill, knew it, and he died not long after his return to the U.S. It's possible to speculate that had an influence on both him and the Cleveland Orchestra, but that remains speculation rather than known fact. In any case Szell was reported to have been very elated with the orchestra's performance in that concert.
I'd like to ask Dave to speak a little about the technical side of studio recordings. How are they made? Are the works recorded in one piece or movement by movement separately? Is there a lot of engineering and tampering with the sound? Why should one conductor not work well in studio? He could always record the work in one piece as if he were performing in front of an audience, and the result would be the same, wouldn't it?
I love George Szell. I know that he was a martinet, but he certainly got results. His version of Tchaik 4 is my favourite, but I have him doing lots of stuff. One of my go-to conductors.
There is a filmed interview with Szell in which he addresses the charge of his being unnecessarily tyrannical with the Cleveland Orchestra members. Basically, his reply was the Board of The Cleveland Orchestra charged him with improving the orchestra's performance and standing, not to champion and safeguard the individual job security of its member musicians. He perhaps took that to extremes, but he got results. His generation of European conductors were often much the same., with some exceptions. For example, Fritz Reiner was in his way even more tyrannical. His nickname among the Chicago Symphony members was "Friendly Fritz," precisely because he was anything but, and he could be deliberately cruel to some. However, some of the members who were long-term survivors later commented in interviews that he left them pretty much alone. He was weeding out individual players who didn't meet his standards. Herbert von Karajan wasn't Mr. Nice Guy with the Berlin Philharmonic members either. The flautist James Galway spoke of his time with the orchestra under Karajan. One wrong note in performance could have serious repercussions. The more "enlightened" way of trimming an orchestra to weed out underperforming musicians today is illustrated by the history of the San Francisco Symphony. When Herbert Blomstedt became Music Director in 1985 he was charged with the same task, finding the weak musicians. He made a number of recommendations to the governing Board, who responded by not calling the "chosen" to attend rehearsals and performances, and increasing the number of new hires vetted by Blomstedt. His ten year leadership resulted in a complete change of a third of the total orchestra members. It was a very different orchestra that Michael Tilson Thomas inherited, and he continued to improve and refine it even more.
Comparing different performances is fun, but sometimes it is like going to a TV store to compare all the different big screen TVs that look the almost same to me. Or it is like doing wine tasting and there will be some friends of you keep saying certain vintage is better or grapes from vineyard to vineyard are completely different, etc. For me they all taste the same. One time I went to some blind tasting event and there were quite a few people who picked 2-buck chuck to be the best wine
I love almost everything Szell did but (go ahead and disagree, DH) that mid-60's stereo Cleveland Brahms Symphony cycle was some of the most boring stuff he ever did - however perfect the ensemble predictably was. IMNSHO. This Audite and the earlier Cleveland was just a bit better.
I go for studio recordings because the sound is usually better.
Szell recorded Dvorak 8 three times, the first in mono with the Concertgebouw. Their woodwind playing is stupendous, and the sound is not bad. Check out the "quacking" woodwinds at the end of the scherzo.
The ones I knew were the Columbia Cleveland and the Concertgebouw. I'd forgotten that he'd done that later one with Cleveland on EMI. The Concertgebouw definitely gets a bit more contrast in orchestral sonority, but I don't recall it being distinctively different in any other way. As Dave says, he knows what he wants and (almost) always gets what he wants.
Szell was always amazing in Dvorak. I so wish he had done the complete cycle, and all orchestral works.
Very insightful. Maybe the basis on a new "series", Recording vs Live: The Great Conductors.
There’s a Szell recording with the Czech Phil and the Eroica in good sound that fits into this discussion that was released the other year.
It’s interesting to hear how his approach worked with the Czech Phil sound as opposed to the Cleveland sound.
Archipel has released in streaming last year the same works in concert + the third piano concerto with Firkusny. In wonder if it is the same performance?
@ yes that’s the one.
Oscar Wilde once said consistency is one of the seven deadly virtues
I love this disc, it's so good to hear Szell with the Czech Phil. As for the Brahms, I take what you say Dave. What I especially like is the finale, he really goes flat out in the final pages, quite wonderful. Also, as usual with Szell we can hear the contra bassoon in the finale, that's a deal breaker for me for any performance of this symphony. So many conductors seem to ignore it.
100% agreement. A friend of mine referred to him (his recordings) as "Good Ol' George." It wasn't a slander but also not exactly a compliment either. With Szell, you have a good idea what you are going to get. It will be meticulously groomed, wonderfully executed, and probably conservatively interpreted, sometimes leaving you wanting a bit more than what he delivers.
Dave, I think you made a great point. It depends on the conductor and how he/she responds to studio and live recording. Being human conductors vary in their response to both or either. Szell is remarkably consistent in both, but his Tokyo concert in 1970, recorded live, is very special. He was terminally ill, knew it, and he died not long after his return to the U.S. It's possible to speculate that had an influence on both him and the Cleveland Orchestra, but that remains speculation rather than known fact. In any case Szell was reported to have been very elated with the orchestra's performance in that concert.
That Sibelius 2 is epic! Unmatched!!
I'd like to ask Dave to speak a little about the technical side of studio recordings. How are they made? Are the works recorded in one piece or movement by movement separately? Is there a lot of engineering and tampering with the sound? Why should one conductor not work well in studio? He could always record the work in one piece as if he were performing in front of an audience, and the result would be the same, wouldn't it?
There is no set formula. All of the above may apply at one point or another.
I love George Szell. I know that he was a martinet, but he certainly got results. His version of Tchaik 4 is my favourite, but I have him doing lots of stuff. One of my go-to conductors.
There is a filmed interview with Szell in which he addresses the charge of his being unnecessarily tyrannical with the Cleveland Orchestra members. Basically, his reply was the Board of The Cleveland Orchestra charged him with improving the orchestra's performance and standing, not to champion and safeguard the individual job security of its member musicians. He perhaps took that to extremes, but he got results. His generation of European conductors were often much the same., with some exceptions. For example, Fritz Reiner was in his way even more tyrannical. His nickname among the Chicago Symphony members was "Friendly Fritz," precisely because he was anything but, and he could be deliberately cruel to some. However, some of the members who were long-term survivors later commented in interviews that he left them pretty much alone. He was weeding out individual players who didn't meet his standards.
Herbert von Karajan wasn't Mr. Nice Guy with the Berlin Philharmonic members either. The flautist James Galway spoke of his time with the orchestra under Karajan. One wrong note in performance could have serious repercussions.
The more "enlightened" way of trimming an orchestra to weed out underperforming musicians today is illustrated by the history of the San Francisco Symphony. When Herbert Blomstedt became Music Director in 1985 he was charged with the same task, finding the weak musicians. He made a number of recommendations to the governing Board, who responded by not calling the "chosen" to attend rehearsals and performances, and increasing the number of new hires vetted by Blomstedt. His ten year leadership resulted in a complete change of a third of the total orchestra members. It was a very different orchestra that Michael Tilson Thomas inherited, and he continued to improve and refine it even more.
Comparing different performances is fun, but sometimes it is like going to a TV store to compare all the different big screen TVs that look the almost same to me. Or it is like doing wine tasting and there will be some friends of you keep saying certain vintage is better or grapes from vineyard to vineyard are completely different, etc. For me they all taste the same. One time I went to some blind tasting event and there were quite a few people who picked 2-buck chuck to be the best wine
I almost always prefer studio recordings.
I love almost everything Szell did but (go ahead and disagree, DH) that mid-60's stereo Cleveland Brahms Symphony cycle was some of the most boring stuff he ever did - however perfect the ensemble predictably was. IMNSHO. This Audite and the earlier Cleveland was just a bit better.
I don't disagree. I don't find it dull, but it is I think overly controlled.