@D Wally.....The frontlines are actually fixed right now. Unless you get your news from NYT’s, or Yahoo!, or Newsweek. Seriously, the amount of propaganda in western media is on par with Russian propaganda now. I would recommend sources like The Duran, or New Atlas. 😉
@@danielshepard2315 really dude, you that dense, what do you think ukraine is doing right now. They swept their Karkiv in days, and are currently in the process of breaking through to Kherson. It is only a matter of time before Russia is back to the pre-invasion borders.
I unironically love the TMR audience, they can agree that a caller "won" a debate with Sam and say Sam was in the wrong, yet still not resort to insulting or name-calling against him for it. You almost never see that in *any* online leftist political community.
I'm with Raygun on this one. I don't think that the endgame is all that mysterious: get Russia out of Ukraine completely or as much as possible given the reality of how the war unfolds. That seems to me to be a reasonable goal. Kudos also to Sam and Matt for a thoughtful and respectful conversation.
That is the only good way this ends. Sam here is asking how this ends. Where this needs to end is a Ukrainian 2014 border with Russia on the other side of that line and a Ukrainian defense in depth. This would include Ukraine being accepted as a member of NATO. Yes, that's a lot of work short term and long term but it is well worth doing. The next six months of US support for Ukraine or lack of support for Ukraine may well determine the economic and geopolitical position of the United States for the next fifty years.
@@justatiger6268 Crimea is part of Ukraine. Russia took it by force and a staged election. The only question, is if it is realistic that Ukraine can take Crimea back. At this point, is seems there is some chance Ukraine might be able to .
@@Qq-xs1fz Putin's the one weakening Russia, Ukrainians are simply defending themselves. Also, even tho NATO is in the right for the most part, they're no angels and some degree of skepticism never hurts.
Sam and the Majority Report gets so much right but they really have missed the mark on Ukraine and I hope they take this moment to realize they have been coming off very wishy washy on the fascism coming out of Russia.
Sam and Emma are just embarrassed that they are literally the same horse shit fascist like Jimmy Dore and Tucker Carlson but instead of admitting they were wrong on Ukraine they decide to double down and go full tankie fascist in support of Putin.
@Henry F Wagons What about the cold war? Arming the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan? how did that work out? Arming the contras in Nicaragua? how did that one go?
Well our lack of engagement in actually standing up to Stalin (who the west overestimated) maybe could have saved millions of lives. I get what you are saying our lust in standing up to communism caused a lot of misery in the world but in Ukraine these are people wanting to fight for their country and people that Putin wants to wipe out. Someone needs to stand up to him
What kind of precedent do you think giving in to nuclear blackmail will have? Countries with nukes will realize they can get whatever they want, roll over any non-nuclear country they want, and extort whatever they want just by the threat. Countries without nukes will realize they need them ASAP. What kind of world do you want?
No one wants that world, yet it is has always been that way. Why are we risking total destruction for pride? When my country burns in a glowing fire, shall I take solace in the fact it cost the Russians too?
Isn't that whats been happening all over history post nukes? Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Ukraine itself? Theres a reason countries with nuclear capabilities dont get invaded. Super powers dont want to risk a nuclear war when their economy depends on global trade market.
That world already exist. The US destroyed Afganistan, Iraq, Lybia and Syria i the last 20 years and no one was punished for that. We live in a world that might makes right
Rare time the caller is correct. Sam was a bit too nuanced, didn’t really make a clear point other than “we should have a conversation about financing a war”. Well duh, that’s a given.
@@nectarinedreams7208 Humanity is more important than logic when you are talking about nuclear war. If human beings thought rationally, the world would have ended in nuclear armageddon when Kennedy was in office.
Sam talking about dropping nukes on Moscow and Russian civilians is the first time I’ve heard being mentioned as a possibility in this conflict. Almost all conversations about nuclear weapon usage has been about Russia using them on Ukraine. Sam’s question regarding the end goal of supplying Ukraine is also strange as the US’s goal has always been to contain Russia from expanding. No one is asking for blood on the streets of Moscow here, Sam. We want Ukraine to have the chance to be an independent nation capable of governing themselves without the threat of a fascist dictator.
Literally, these questions have been answered by the Ukrainian government. They want their land back, including Crimea, Zelenskyy doesn't give a fuck about Putin or what happens to him.
I’ve seen people discussing the possibility of dropping nukes on Russia a lot. It’s been discussed alongside any and all possible responses to Russia dropping nukes How can you expect that not to be discussed when both the US and Russia have nukes?
I feel we should go all in. That needs to be the endgame. Putin's regime is fascist to the core. Unless we deal with it the way we dealt with Nazi Germany, with Putin dead, his cronies in prison or also dead, the whole country physically totally destroyed, and rebuilt from the ground up as a western, liberal democracy, this is going to keep happening. Tyrants never stop, and they're never satisfied. This is going to keep happening, unless we stop it permanently.
If you don't stand up to bullies, and support your friends when they are being bullied, then you lose the moral high ground, and your integrity. This goes the same for countries.
Yes because global politics is simplified to bullies and standing up to bullies and not what happens when bullies have the ability to destroy the world
@@tomg3285 If Putin is shown that he can just invade countries and shout about nukes if he's opposed, do you really think the world will be a safer place?
I’m with the caller on this one. We know already know what the limits are because we would have already crossed them at the very beginning of the conflict when those options were there. Breaking Putin’s back might also slow or stop the spread of fascism and that might actually be the strategy.
You understand that Ukraine is a far right country itself. They don't allow socialists or communist parties and they've ripped up workers rights. Neither Russia or Ukraine are progressive countries. It's understandable that Ukrainians will risk nuclear war for their country, but you can't expect the rest of the world to just be happy with that. One problem I've seen is that a lot of the younger generation havnt experienced the mistakes of the US in the past when they've pumped money into countries for war. There's nothing unreasonable with wanting an idea of what the end goal is, after all that's been the problem in the past, unforeseen outcomes.
@@AlexeiX1 Ah yes, targeting .01% of some military groups by stealing their children, torturing, raping, starving, killing civilians (mostly russian-speaking and having nothing to do w azov) in ukraine. Very cool.
@Robert Martin because these people aren’t real leftists. They’re just liberals who just discovered that the mainstream media is trash and they’ve found an alternative outlet on UA-cam. These people are woke neocons
This caller is biased and emotional due to his personal relationship to Ukraine. War decision shouldn’t be made based on emotion. We should have learned that from Iraq and Afghanistan.
You agree with the hysterical pearl clutching about "Russian fascism" while ending your post with a literal fascist slogan... that's... a choice, I suppose.
I guess you only watched 3 minutes of the clip. You should finish it. You'll see the caller said nothing. And Sam only agreed to continue funding Ukraine. But hey, Im just a guy that listened to the whole thing.
It's crazy to me that Emma and Sam aren't on the side of helping Ukraine. This war has the most obvious good and bad sides I've ever seem. This is truly WW2 all over again and it's strange they can't see that.
@@lololounge8281 it’s not wild to me for them to be cautiously suspicious of the US, tht is just common sense for US behavior. But in this case, some left people have a real hard time not diving into conspiracy theory about the US. You just can’t do that to the degree that you see this situation and basically are saying let them sort it out, even if that means brutality for Ukrainians. One, it’s immoral, but more importantly who is going to trust you for the future as Allie’s or being for good, if you just let the weak get eaten by the strong.
@@rexfordmorgan7552 I 100% understand what you are saying. I guess I just expected people like Dore, Kulinsk, TYT and of course, those uber lefty guys that default to all war is bad to be on this side of the issue. I would think Sam would be more like raygun. For the record, I have no idea where any of the above people actually stand on the war. I'm just talking about assumptions. I also think that what Ukraine itself wants matters. And people are going, "it will be worse for them if we intervene because who knows what Biden will ACTUALLY do" - wow I disagree with that. They have a government and officials and they analyzed whose help they wanted. Give it to them. I promise, I have a hunch that Zelenskyy is more savvy at this than us.
@@rexfordmorgan7552 If you cover enough of US international politics you know there isn't such a thing as the US's "good will" when it comes to these kinds of involvements. Coups for one get started in the guise of lending a hand.
@@WizPigTactics U.S. involvement in WWII also wasn't good will, but it still would have been foolhardy to oppose that involvement. Aiding Ukraine against Russian invasion is likewise a rare case where geopolitical self-interest and a more principled morality happen to align.
@@donovan4222 no, you appear to be the idiot here. Also the callers wife is Ukrainian genius. And just like me, has a first hand knowledge and hear about what is happening from the source. Also what history? You mean when ruzzia had their puppet Yanukovich go against the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians will to join the EU in favour for CIS? Or when Ukrainians finally had enough and through out the ruzzian puppet after he had police open fire on peaceful protestors killing over 130 civilians?
@@donovan4222 the us might have exterior motives therefore we should allow russia to commit genocide and cut off prisoners of wars heads because the us by helping ukraine fight off an imperialist dictatorship invading them might get something out of it for themselfs Is that your position
@@TylerMarkRichardson Not the US “might” have exterior motives, their motive is to weaken Russia using Ukrainian bodies. The US isn’t helping Ukraine, they are turning it into Afghanistan.
@@sullen2420 ww3 is going to start - or not - regardless of what Uzo, Sullen, or KingslayerSrb want or do not want. Your comment is literally a guy pointing a gun to my head and saying "wanna get shot?". Well, I don't, but I'd also like for you not to point a gun to my head, especially when I actually have a bigger gun than you do. You really are the type of people who back in 1930s were apologetic towards Hitler. Look how well that turned out to be. Want it or no, there's only one way to deal with a mad dictator.
@@KingslayerSrb Putin is NOT Hitler, you dolt. This is a war between neighbors that we should NOT be involved in. If Putin has plans to invade France, then we can talk WWIII. Ukraine is NONE of our fucking business. You act like Ukraine is a major ally of the U.S., it's not. Putin can have ALL of Ukraine and it wouldn't be worth starting nuclear armageddon over. Your mind has become numb from all the U.S. propaganda, you were against George Bush, weren't you? How old are you?
Its important to remember that the US government having alternative motives doesn't make supporting Ukraine wrong. You can do the right thing for the wrong reasons.
Exactly. I was kinda surprised Sam made that argument about Biden and trans people. He's too smart for that. I feel like he was starting to backpedal and lose the debate at that point.
That is typically how the US acts in conflicts, by doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. The issues typically arise from the US then not caring enough, to actually create enough stability with aid, and building civil structures, for a better society to grown in the region. With Ukraine, if the leadership survives, and they are allowed to keep systems to defend themselves against new Russian aggressions, there is a fair chance Ukraine, can get out of this in a good way. But in poor countries, with democracy completely torn down, US has to do the right things after the conflict, to forward that society in the right direction.
The problem is that there alternative motives involve undermining negotiations and continuing the war as long as possible to weaken Russia, to the point where Boris Johnson even threatened Zelensky to not negotiate with Putin.
@@danielshepard2315 Russia is the one that doesn't want to negotiate. Putin doesn't offer compromise. He makes demands. Also, it's impossible to negotiate with someone who will simply lie with every breath. Putin promises humanitarian corridors and then bombs the civilians trying to use them. That's who we're dealing with. Weakening Russia is actually the only way to get them to negotiate in good faith, if that's even possible. The only way this can end is with a security guarantee for Ukraine (either with the United States or nato membership) and the occupiers out of all ukranian territories for good. Ukraine will NEVER stop fighting until this is achieved, REGARDLESS of whether nato supports it or not. With NATO support Ukraine can win. They've proven that. If NATO withdraws it support Ukraine will turn into Afghanistan, only WORSE. Withdrawing support is what will actually prolong the war. The choice is actually simple. Support Ukraine until they've expelled the occupiers or abandon Ukraine and watch on TV from the comfort of your home as millions are raped, tortured and murdered in the streets in a genocide, which lets putin and China know that all they have to do is threaten nuclear war and the west will submit and allow them to do anything they want from now on. Those are your options .
@@danielshepard2315 Let's even pretend for a second that you're completely right and that your conspiracy theory is true. So wait, weakening Russia is a bad thing now? I'm all for weakening fascist regimes. Aren't you? It's a very weird take for a Leftist to not want to see anti-democratic states diminish in power. Are you a Leftist?
The *one* time I completely disagree with Sam on something. I believe the caller was right here. Make no mistake, Ukraine is winning (or so it looks) because of our, and other countries, help.
@Adam Jacobs because Ukrainian lives are precious with their blue eyes and fair skin, unlike the dark skinned Yemenis or Palestinians. In fact screw the latter group, in fact let's fund their destruction by giving arms to isareal and Saudi Arabia, and cry about precious Ukrainian lives! Libs are awesome!
Gotta say, I think the caller is right here. I think we (speaking for myself as an American) have become highly suspicious of getting involved in foreign conflicts in any capacity. And that suspicion is well-founded. But I don't think that should blind us to moments where there's a fight that really is worth fighting, and this is one such case
I love TMR, but their Ukraine takes have been awful. I hear them use nuclear war as their defense for appeasement for Russia, but what's to dissuade Russia if we keep rewarding them for violating international law?
I like Ronald Raygun usually, he seems like a nice guy, but he's very biased on this and grasping at straws. The fact that many in the audience agree with him concerns me deeply. If you think the Ukrainian state or the USA give two shits about "The Ukrainian Trans teens"... I just don't know what to tell you. Saddam Hussein was a really bad guy too, so was Milosevic, I'm no fan of the Taliban. But it's the same script every fucking time guys. They try to paint other other party in as bad a light as they can, they say they're defending democracy or sovereignty. What about Afghanistan's sovereignty? Hell, what about Ukraine's sovereignty when the USA couped Viktor Yanukovych? What about Russia's sovereignty? It's a childish argument to make, to talk about sovereignty in a world dominated by a US Hegemon that you literally live in and under the blanket of protection of. The US and the UK won't even let Zelensky negotiate with the Russians if he wanted to, they torpedoed the peace talks in Turkey. Putin is a brutal thug in charge of the remnants of the former USSR, but he's fighting against the biggest gangster on the block in the USA. The USA is so criminal and so cynical, they won't even risk US soldiers lives in this war and don't care how many Ukranians die weakening Russia for them to colonize and people like you guys eat up all their propaganda and actually call Russia the Imperialists here. It's a joke.
@@FakeKraid ho boy... and you haven’t eaten up Russian propaganda on your end BADLY🤣🤦♂️ no no.. it’s everyone BUT you... ok bud... Such typical “What-about-ism” for the majority of it.., “wHaT aBoUt WhAt ThE US hAS DonE!?” - and then my favourite Part - Russia invading Ukraine, jacking and annexing land from a sovereign independent country, is “Russia fighting the big bad US” - and “only people who’ve bought into propaganda believe it’s Russian Imperialism” Nevermind the other great part: “The US is so evil, they won’t even send American troops half way around the world to fight and start a proxy war that could VERY easily lead to a full scale WWIII!... (if they DO send troops, you’d turn around and call THAT “evil” 🤦♂️) These are the same goofballs who‘ll claim “Russia is just defending themselves here” - and WE bought into propaganda 🤦♂️ Putin; Ukraine are terrorist for blowing up our bridge to Crimea... that’s why I bombed 13 cities, the heart of their capital, targeted apartment buildings and civilian infrastructure... killed over 80-100x+ as many people in their attack we’re responding too... and injured countless more... Those damned terrorist over in Ukraine and over in the West... it was those Damned Americans and Brits that made us kill all those civilians, and commit open atrocities and war crimes with countless civilian casualties...
@@FakeKraid Raygun is wrong but your take is also wrong. This isnt an existential fight of American Imperialism vs Russian defense. Its imperialism vs imperialism. This war was started because Ukrainian gas fields in the east posed an existential threat to the survival of Russia and its ability to control Europes gas markets going forward. EU was looking to add Ukraine for this reason when Putin suddenly invaded. Eastern Ukraine has a ton of gas and all the pipelines from old USSR days. The tools needed to completely make Russia irrelevent forever. The invasion is about annexing these regions and prolonging the O&G age for Russia a few more decades. Victory for Russia will be making Ukranian O&G investment in the east completely unviable. Rn nobody will invest in a war zone.
Matt has been one of the biggest contrarians on this topic. Emma too but Matt is the one who keeps asking open ended questions that come across as really obtuse. Like it isn’t just the US supporting this war it’s basically every European country plus more
You are mentioning this international coalition as a morally correct authority. Why must you defer to this to hold your position? Ignoring the US diplomatic control over my and many other countries, You must base your opinion not on the “Who” but the “Why”. A bad person does not make a good action bad, or vice versa. The assessment of the action itself is solely relevant.
@@poissonrouge8937 calm down I didn’t say any of that I just said it isn’t only the US backing Ukraine here the entire EU is basically behind Ukraine and for morally justifiable reasons. They don’t want Russia pushing any further into EU it’s obvious if you live in an EU country like I do. The US has influence sure but you can’t discount the entire 29 countries of NATO backing Ukraine with near unanimity
“Basically every European country” you mean America and its vassal states in Western Europe that they have absorbed into NATO and/or occupied militarily since the end of WW2? That’s about as impressive as Belarus supporting Russia.
I understand the empathetic place the MR crew has been coming from with this conflict, but I personally believe that everything must be done to prevent fascism. We can never give that kind of evil an inch.
@@tomg3285 Nuking Russia wouldn't prevent fascism though, it would just kill millions of people needlessly. Funding Ukraine's defense against in invasion prevents the spread of fascism without killing people needlessly
@@tomg3285 no one said nuke anything. The US could remove the armed forces of Russia from the earth without even thinking about nukes. They don’t even have to do that, they have been going over and above call of duty by providing arms to help Ukrainians help themselves. With help from the rest of nato they can push Russia out.
I like that someone brought it up. It's been strange for me watching these segments putting the onus on Ukraine to end this. Ronald is hitting the nail on the head with how they talk about it and... Glad to see it drawn out.
@@dogecoin1692 i would say i agree more with the caller than sam, but i also see where sam is coming from. Yes, helping Ukraine protect itself is morally justifiable. They both agree on that, but it is worth mentioning the US's track record and making sure that the Ukraine conflict DOESNT become like that of Yemen, Iraq, etc.
@@purts2hen to avoid a Yemen or Iraq situation there must be oversight as to how the weapons the US gives to Ukraine are being used. In Yemen the Saudis have been quite irresponsible with the bombs the US gave them.
I've been volunteering in Ukraine since the start of the war. Relieved to read to comments section here which is surely more indicative of public opinion that the mislead opinions of the host here.
First of all, thank you for being an active force for good in this fucking war. And secondly, can I ask you what exactly are you doing as a volunteer? Can anyone help as a volunteer, even if we don't have medical experience and speak bad Russian/Ukrainian?
@@johnaarson There have been so many volunteers joining as to be turned away because the Ukrainian Army just can't field them all. However humanitarian volunteers are always needed and appreciated, and the population has volunteered and mobilized to help the Army in any way possible. Nations around Ukraine have also had insane amounts of volunteers to help.
You Ukrainians are literally no better than the Russians with all due respect, you work with countries like Turkey who oppress human rights and see no problem with that for some bizarre reason and call yourselves the "good guys" despite working with dictators
Most intelligent and passionate. Ray gun is a legend. I agree with ethically almost everything even if I don't agree with his perception of motivations of Emma and Matt.
Thank you for this call, Raygun. The MR coverage on Ukraine has been heart breakingly absent of understanding. Also, the minute Sam started saying that 2014 was OK because, "people lost interest in coverage", I was just counting the minutes to when he'd, w/ no self-awareness, bring up, "but what about Yemen!" MR loves defaulting to Yemen as if that excuses Ukraine.
What I got from Sam here is that "nobody talks about the money that we sending", but there is people who constantly talking about it, we call them the republican party
@@hatrick3117 The republicans support sending money to Ukraine, they just concern troll about it because Biden is doing it. And even that is too much for anyone to handle apparently
@@danielshepard2315 so are they going to troll and galvanise people around themselves with that message and when they take power be like: we actually was pro-Ukraine all along, I don't get it
@@hatrick3117 Yes, that's literally what they are doing. The Senate voted 86-11 for the $40 billion Ukraine aid package. Literally the only reason some republicans are pretending to be concerned about sending weapons to Ukraine is because Biden is the one currently doing it.
The caller is right. MR coverage of the war has been really disappointing. The segment Emma did a couple of weeks ago was getting close to Dore/Tracey/Hinkle level. Binder was there to add a bit of sanity thankfully. I know people have a short memory, but it *was* a big deal in 2014 that Obama pretended he would retaliate against Russia then did nothing. It was one of the biggest IR story of the year, if not *the* biggest. Anyway, it’s sad, I hope MR can wake up on this milquetoast centrist take that only end up benefitting the extreme right.
Maybe you were joking, but the milquetoast centrists are almost 100% on the side of Ukraine here. Libs and Neocons have the right take, and it is utterly depressing that elements of the left can't recognize that geopolitical interests for once align with the moral position. Insane tankies aside, it almost seems like an aesthetic thing for many, they are afraid of appearing nationalistic or bloodthirsty? Or maybe just a reflexive USA bad / pacifist position? The whole thing is very strange for me.
@@juventinocasillas3023 “Invading Afghanistan / Iraq under false pretense and killing thousands of their civilians is bad and the U.S. should have been stopped.” “Putin invading Ukraine under false pretenses and killing thousands of civilians is bad and Russia should be stopped.” This Guy: Wow, hypocritical much??
Sorry MR but we do have a dog in this fight. This war is no longer about just Ukraine. This is a battle between liberal democracy and global authoritarians (that includes the republican party). As flawed as Western democracy has been, I'll fight to preserve what we have rather than end up in a fascist hellscape.
No it's not. Ukraine was not any more or less democratic before the pro US government took over in 2014. If anything, it was less democratic because they overthrew the elected government in a violent coup. The US is a global authoritarian, far more destructive and powerful than Russia is, not just the republican party, democratic foreign policy is also authoritarian. This has nothing to do with democracy, having a pro western government doesn't=democracy.
99.9% of American do not have dog in the fight. But we should still help urkraine. It just a matter of to what degree. We definitely have dog in the fight in this country against fascist putin loving republicans party though.
This conversation has been happening in other leftist communities (eg Vaush, Dylan Burns). It’s good this convo is happening here as well, but this convo is not novel.
Alot of people who are apprehensive about helping Ukraine dont seem to realize they are literally siding with Republicans(american fascists) and their talking points. Which is ironic to look at honestly.
@@arfived4 Caller also said global fascism bad. Putin and fellow fascists are working in tandem to corporately own this warming planet. I completely agree w the caller. I like this show but sometimes Sam Seder seems too long winded and pedantic. Yet overall show is informative and supportive of progressivism.
@@SuburbanOrigin you asked where the nuance is implying there is none, then say there is nuance in your next message.. stop pussy footing and state your opinion
@@Cussy69_420 you can decide, by actually learning about it yourself and coming to an assessment, rather than just pontificating and remaining intentionally uninformed
@@Cussy69_420 I see those criticisms as often as ongoing discourse, especially with Palestine and Yemen separately, though they are not apples to apples in global impact (future thinking sustenance chains, NATO membership and tensions) and thus receive less attention from media outlets especially. I do think racism plays more a role than people are willing to admit. On the broad Left and prior military, I am no fan of war, though we are not (yet) living in a world of ubiquitous sustainable plenty (improving tech, yet lacking political will) and must engage (actual) global dilemmas as they arise, in my relatively ignorant opinion.
@@ryvyr They receive less media attention because US media generally supports, or just ignores US crimes. US media serves power, and the interests of people in power is to weaken Russia, not to stop war crimes. So when it comes to Ukraine, US media is suddnely anti imperialist freedom fighters. When it comes to Palestine, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Americans are mostly silent or just don't care. I can guarantee you that you won't see the Ukraine flag bio guy liberals putting Palestine or Yemeni flags in their bios any time soon. Also, you can engage in global dilemmas without supporting a war as the solution.
@@danielshepard2315 Fair points all around, and I should know better with Chomsky being large part of youth awakening. Circumstantially I remain in support of aid without a designated cap or date, otherwise am remainded of Beau's framing of foreign affairs being about power rather than morality.
@@ryvyr I'm not necessarily against all military aid to Ukraine at this point, I just think the conversation should be focused on an actual diplomatic solution to the war, which is definitely lacking in the discourse. For example, the progressive caucus recently tried to release a letter to Biden advocating for the US to attempt diplomatic solutions in Ukraine and there was such fierce backlash from other democrats that Jayapal basically backed down and capitulated and said it was a mistake.
I don't understand the comparison to Libya and Gaddafi. One is helping militants have a revolution (which we suck at) and another is aiding a country that asked for help?
its an issue called "american diabolism" where people see each action by the US as always evil, which is usually right admittedly, but in this case it leads to the wrong conclusion. those got brought up because we had our hands in the interventions, and if you dont view the actions on their own and instead as "US intervention is bad" you can get confused.
He is saying in a these examples we need a clearly defined end game and exit strategy, not that all these instances were the same thing. Sam was having difficulty articulating this but that was my interpretation.
It's adorable that you think the US is just "helping people who ask for help" how do you think the pro western government took power in 2014? What do you think the US has been doing the last 8 years in Ukraine?
Caller is on point, but also and probably more importantly supporting Ukraine is a huge strategic win for the US. its not often that one of those strategic wins aligns with a moral win, we need to take this one.
Only because u are fascists, 97% voted to exit ukraine but 100% of Western fascists have decided they cannot exit. they don’t even speak Russian and have never even visited, but they are experts... Medical experts as well... Bahahaha.
I hate how people just characterize this as "supporting Ukraine" as if the current Ukrainian government isn't an American client state propped up by billions of dollars of US investment and military training/weapons for the last 8 years
You don't think it's strange how if you even question sending weapons to Ukraine everyone loses their minds? We are living in a state of pure hysteria and war propaganda that is escalating us dangerously close to nuclear war.
i love you guys so much but you did get this one wrong. like the caller said democracy matters. and in my personal opinion that's anywhere in the world.
The US has famously done a great job “protecting democracy and freedom” in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Cuba, Egypt, etc etc right?
@Nicholas Time Blablabla victoria nuland blablabla Ivan katchanovsky Tired russian troll talking points. Its not like ukrainians have any agency and were all up to protest a russian puppet decision of transforming ukraine into a bellarussian type open air museum, instead of integrating with European Union, like it was promised by that russian puppet in the campaign. Promise he broken without giving any reason by ending the negotiations of ukraine EU membership. He also enrolled titushkas and Berkut to stomp the protests and were pushing dictatorial laws. But sure. No russian influence there.... Just usa pushing the gullible out to the streets in order to fight their best intrest of being a puppet state for Vladimir Putin. Like chechnya or bellarus. That usa is devil.
How is this about democracy when the entire conflict started over Euromaidan overthrowing the elected pro Russian government and replacing it with a pro western government against the wishes of the eastern half of the country?
@@theboss4359 doing the right thing is doing the right thing, worrying about some vague notion of the hypocrisy of the ever changing entity known as America is irrelevant
What will actually come out of this continued insane policy is that there won't be a single Ukrainian man between the ages of 20-30 alive on Ukrainian land.
@@mosesconspiracy Depends if russia is insane enough to drop a nuke over a random ukrainian village they lost control over. But if they are then all diplomatic efforts are mute anyway since there was no scrupel using nukes willy-nilly anyway.
@@mosesconspiracy Russia threaten nukes every time they stub their toe and will continue to threaten it no matter what the US's actions are. Literally the only move that will make nuclear war less likely is demonstrating that Russia only harms itself with wars of aggression
Sorry, @Sam Seder, but you are dead wrong on this one. Russia started an illegal, offensive war against a non-threatening country. How is this even debatable in the slightest? Why are most lefties turning into bra!ndead, empty shells of themselves all of a sudden whenever it comes to this issue? What is happening to people like Kyle Kulinsky (the guy from Secular Talk) and Noam Chomsky (arguably one of the most important and wise minds from the last (20th) Century - no offense - and certainly the most valuable one when it comes to progress in linguistics and theoretical computer science)?
Sam never "debated" the thing you are saying "How is this even debatable in the slightest?", even in this call he repeatedly says russia are at fault here. 100% ful stop Russia are the bad guys.
How does Russia invading someone mean it's not debatable to fight a proxy war with Russia? Nothing is "happening to" people who disagree with you, you likely just got swept up in the hysteria that happens whenever there is a war.
It's because they're American. Americans have an anti-imperialist/anti-interventionist streak which has consolidated post-Iraq War. It's a sort of trauma response, politically speaking - a guttural response to a cascade of failed, unjust or immoral interventions over the last few decades. They've been poisoned into believing that America should stay out of anything geopolitics-wise, and that anything America supports is, by default, suspicious at best.
@@andreashofmann4556 "Sam never "debated" the thing you are saying": Learn what words mean, before you write. You used debated as a verb, I used it as an adjective ("debatable"). Those two are not the same and neither is their meaning. Try again once you understand how words work.
Cheers Raygun!! I’m a pacifist and TMR is great on many issues, but on foreign policy they are often horrible, with no understanding whatsoever of how to deal with dictators. Crimea probably will never be returned to Ukraine, but they will not and should not ever admit to that. Nor, should they be asked to recognize it as Russian, even if they agree to peace with Russian control.
I wish they interviewed Ukrainians, historians or war reporters from Ukraine. Sam or the others don't seem knowledgeable about Eastern Europe or Ukraine. They don't seem to understand that NATO is a defense alliance, not an invading force and NATO is not the US.
@@cameronpatterson130 I’m honestly amazed at the brain dead comments I’ve read here. The naivety surrounding the intentions of NATO and the US is staggering. A defensive alliance my ass.
There's a weird convergence on right and left that we should let Russia just conquer a free country. It's bizarre and wrong. If there is a righteous fight, it is this one
I would say """left""", but the brainrot of as vaush calls it "American diabolism" inflicted many genuine leftists content creators. Luckily some are still sane, examples: Matt binder ;) Adam something Vaush And the two best examples, well educated and im sure capable of beating every tired arguments that putin apologist, or useful idiots for his land grab tactic, are making: Dylan burns Lonerbox.
It's not about "conquering a free country" it's about whether Ukraine gets to be a US puppet state or a Russian puppet state. How is that a "righteous fight"?
@@danielshepard2315 Nope. Its about russia going for ukraine's Oil and gas. 2012 giant gas wells are discovered near crimea in the Black sea. Russian puppet yanukovich tries to transform ukraine into chechnya or belarus, despite campaign promises that he will further seek EU membership. He ends negotiations with the EU. Teases a deal with Putin. Protests start. He tries to squash them with brutal force. He tries to pass dictatorial laws. He fails. Wagner group and other little green men enter crimea. 2014 russia annexes crimea without much resistence and bloodshed. Does that land grab satisfy putin's apetite? Nope. Moment he is succesfful in crimea is the moment he Goes for donbass. Thats it. All rest is smoke and mirrors. Now, sure, USA does not tolerate void and tries to corrupt everything everywhere. But. There is a difference between joining nato and some trade deals and being a freaking open air museum entirely dependant on russia like belarus.
This is such a meaningless statement...think about what you are saying "Russia bad so it doesn't matter what the US does, we don't need to think about the consequences of our actions" the same logic to justify every disastrous proxy war with Russia in US history.
@@ugaboj Russia, the United States, Britain, the current Ukrainian government amongst others are all response for the current events in Ukraine BigBrain Uga.
All the Majority Report is deeply wrong on this. This ends when Russian troops are done with their aggression and leave all of Ukraine, or the Ukrainian people themselves decide to come to a negotiated peace without US strong arming them into it. Not a moment before. Nuclear blackmail must be made to backfire or it can only escalate. The caller understated the case to be diplomatic. The MR crew are not just wrong but cruel and immoral on this.
@@pro-choicemom Exactly, this is how many allies are formed. You help a country during a war, they'll back us up as well for things. I am very disappointed with the segment of the left that just wants to sit back and do nothing.
South Vietnam did want meddling, and ARVN did fight quite fiercely (1.4 million casualties) for at least a decade. Ultimately, the NVA and its allies fought more fiercely and more effectively.
Ukraine is not some equal partner to the US, Ukraine is a US client state propped up by billions of dollars of US investment and military spending since 2014.
Backing Ukraine here is 100% the anti-imperialist position here. I usually agree with Sam, but between this and the previous bit on Ukraine the Majority Report is completely wrong here (aside from Binder).
@@amphitheatre so a flag used by a nation can't use symbols adopted by NEO Nazi groups? I bet you aren't a Pepe the frog fan either, right? Always-online folks like you should probably watch MORE CNN at this point to get more normie perspective.
Turning Ukraine into a militarized US satellite state is not "anti imperialist" do you think funding the Mujahedeen to fight Russia in Afghanistan was "anti imperialist"?
@@danielshepard2315 are you aware of how drastically different those two cases are? And I'm not seeing Ukraine being turned into a "satellite state", what are you talking about? Are you one of those weird foreign policy isolationists that thinks if a single dollar leaves the country it is imperialism?
Bad caller, worse comments. Too many uninformed people who are way to emotional and not being objective or evening listening to what Sam said. I have no doubt every commenter in here will be turning on Ukraine shortly. Calling them facists, racists and bigots soon. Going to be hilarious to see.
Sam did a good job at the end changing the subject. The caller wasn't just talking about debating conditions of US aid. He was talking about the show's broader rhetoric, which included Emma's assumption that ending the Ukrainian war effort would constitute "peace," Lockheed Martin loves the war, and Lech claiming that arming Ukraine prolongs the conflict.
In a sense Lech is both right and wrong. Like he’s right in that if Ukraine had just been left to be slaughtered by Russia with no aid or support then this would have been over by March or April. But seeing as it went down the way it did, it will now be over faster if the U.S and E.U and NATO see it through to the end, I.E pushing Russia back to pre 2014 borders and securing those. Only a fool goes further and attacks Russia. If aid & support is dropped then this is will drag on with more people coming to harm. It’s easy to say there are mass graves in other countries that get less attention but, we agree that’s wrong right? Getting it wrong previously or elsewhere doesn’t make it ok for it to happen to Ukrainians too right?
@@tacticalgrace6456 agreed. If the US hadn't armed Ukraine, Ukraine's defensive war effort would have been replaced by a civil war pitting Ukrainians against the Russian occupiers, whose brutality would quickly escalate. It's pretty sickening to refer to such a state of affairs, as Vigeland does, as "peace."
@@jonathansurovell3516 : Depends on who is doing the referring. If Ukraine didn't get our money and weapons, then the whole U.S. of America would have been spared hearing about the war effort it's not directly involved in. That's peace from a United States citizen's perspective. What about Ethiopia? Nobody talks about Ethiopia... where's the demand for aid on behalf of starving Ethiopians caught in the midst of a war? And starving and unhoused Americans, too, while we're at it. Its war everywhere.
Sam lost this debate and rightfully so. There's no room to equivocate about finances when human rights are on the line and its a bit of a self report for Sam and the gang to double down on the problems of cost.
Americans lives are on the lines when you spend money on Ukrainians instead of Americans. Everything has an opportunity cost. You can 100% place a resource amount worth on human lives.
This comment section makes me proud to be an American!!! You can't just allow Putin to grab random pieces of countries every few years when he feels like it. So I don't think forcing the Ukrainians into a horrible bargaining position by telling them to cut a deal or we'll quit giving them weapons is the proper position. Sam looked bad here & struggled mightly to counter his based argument. My real complaint is that the Europeans aren't funding this war equally with us
So who should stop the US from invading countries every year when they feel like it? You are just going to let the US get away with invading Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen etc. ? Who is going to stop the US? Should Russia and China start surrounding the US with military bases and arming/training troops to fight US forces?
Yo, if you don't want america to pay for everything maybe don't appropriate all the money? Because support in this situation or not - people in europe have turned towards militarism in a way they have not for 30 years becasue of this - and this will benefit more unjust, illegitimate wars than the occasional just one the west finds itself in every, what, 80 years? Ofc this one is legitimate and the support is out of questin imho - but my god, there should at least be room to seriously think about if we can't support them in a way that is _better_ , leans more to benefiting this opportunity for us emancipatory people instead of all the others for, yk, not-us.
9 time out of 10 I agree with the Majority Report, but not on this. After we make a commitment, we have to follow through with it, otherwise our word means nothing.
Can you say what it is you think you heard from this video lol. Sounds like everyone turned if off after they heard Sam say "I just want to know what the end means. And where that would be, if any" - Can you tell me where he said he would break the commitment ?
The problem is we have disingenuous actors (like a certain Gabbard) that calls any such foreign policy "pro war", and for some on the Left that consider themselves as anti war, they have to go through the minutia of explaining the nuance of their commitment to a group that sees "nuance" as code for "excuse". For example, Kulinski recently tried to thread that needle when Biden had brought up our commitment to defend Taiwan against China. Some would definitely say the same thing about his take as they're saying about Seder's take here with regards to Ukraine. (Speaking of, Kulinski's response to the discussion of Putin's nuclear threat did have some questionable moments.) The only difference is that (as triknives pointed out) Sam's question is about what the goal is, not whether or not we should rethink our commitment because of WWIII concerns.
The real central issue of this debate isn't about Ukraine. It's the fact that the supporting staff on Sam's show don't examine their opinions to the extent Sam does before presenting them on the show. It's a real shame, and in my opinion it does damage the brand of this show.
OMG, yes. Love Sam. The rest act like adolescents and are extremely difficult to watch. It's getting worse, not better. Emma is so wrong and smug on a variety of issues. This is just another example.
@purts2 the citi bike Karen, the central park Karen or the Kyle Rittenhouse situation. She's very closed minded on race issues because her mind is made up before all the facts are in. I used to like Emma. Her racial rhetoric is extremely cringe. She supports "trendy-trans" activists while being blind to the harm they caused to actual trans people. She's way too reactionary for my taste.
@purts2 you see what you did ? You pulled an Emma. Your mind is already made up and you obviously didn't watch the trial, or you don't know the law. I don't defend Rittenhouse. I do defend the law of our country. If you don't agree with the law, then change it. What law did Rittenhouse break? I talk with many progressives and watched many debates on this. I see emotional reactions and very little legal arguments. So tell me, how is it I'm the problem?
That's what Ro Khanna kept saying during one of his recent appearances on Bad Faith podcast. The justification was that "Putin is killing women and children," as if we hadn't been doing precisely the same thing in Afghanistan for twenty years. As if we aren't doing it right now in Yemen, and _still_ in Afghanistan. The hypocrisy is unbearable.
Completely agree with the caller. Expected more from Sam. This war started in 2014, not 2022. It only escalated when ‘Someone’ decided to extend Russia’s borders to equal the old Soviet Union. This was a moral point before, but now with inflation, it appears some people are leaving their morals at the door.
Russia did not extend it's borders to equal the old soviet union, not even today are they trying to do that, because they aren't even capable of doing that. And it's weird that you leave out how the US sent John McCain and other politicians to Ukraine in 2014 to support a coup of the elected government, then propped up the new government with billions of dollars of investment, as if that's just a normal "hands off" thing to do
I started to understand what Sam was trying to say towards the end of the conversation when he brought up previous interventions that started off just and easy to support but that then went sideways. I think he's trying to say that US citizens *should be in a good position to hold the government's feet to the fire if things go sideways so their influence will actually be able to halt those wars.* And the only way to do that is to remain vigilant, regularly assess their involvement, and that everything being paid for should be explained and justified. Even just regularly asking politicians "When do you think this will be over?" It makes sense but it's hard to articulate, and hard to do as well. Sam temporarily sounded like Jordan Peterson for a while ("We need to be VERY PARTICULAR" [followed by vagueness]) which shows he hadn't yet had a good conversation about this. *He should be more effective at communicating this now.*
Yes this is the correct take. Sam and Co have had all year to catch up with the evolving situation but they’ve barely covered it and even when they did it was almost always downplayed or cast in a suspicious light. They need to get their heads around this conflict and find a good leftist position they can defend because this ain’t it.
@@Clefargle Emma usually shuts down the conversation with an appropriate what-about-ism on USA's mis-adventures or support of authoritarian regimes. I would like to tell all Leftists, yes, the USA has done some bad shit with ill-intent. We are not obligated to take Russia's side (or use Putin talking points) just because we dislike USA policy. We have a moral compass and can see that this is a battle of good vs evil, and USA is- for a change- a good guy in this. It is the republicans and fascist extremists that support Putin and want to stop helping Ukraine. There should be moral clarity on this issue.
@@Clefargle The left hs serious issues to have a stand when it comes to wars. The left in general believe that the natural state is peace, but that has never been true in human history, and isn't in many animal kingdoms either. The left is opposed to nato. but instead of coming up with ways to improve nato, or an alternative, they just think nato can be abandoned and peace will follow (something the baltic states, when occupied by Russia, would not agree with). (the whole nato expansion is an aggression toward russia rhetoric comes staight out of Russian propaganda, that the left used to be very open to, with the real goals being that Russia would like to be able to expand it's territories and Nato would get in the way, Russian state was always safe with its nukes) The left thinks that money that goes in to wars, could just be spent in the US to help people. But, the world stability, is crucial for the US society to survive, if the world turns in to chaos, the US will not be able to self-stustain an economy capable of taking care of anywhere near all it citizens. If the left wants to prepare for the future, they, would start a people movement, towards a different way of life. But most people don't want to go back to a farming society, where the working day surpasses 12 hours, where it is all about providing for themselves and others. De-industrialization would be completely necessary, to build completely self-sufficent societies. And that comes at great cost to our living standard, way beyond not having time to spend on a thing like the internet. Whatever democratic states the left finds a place in, needs to be able to enter conflicts, outside it's territories, or there is no chance that state will survive, and then there would be no left wing democratic state anyhow.
@@Clefargle well to be fair Voosh and other "pseudo-Leftists" are showing the devastation as if its war pr0n. Babushkas don't feel "joy" in the continuing war.
@@justr6982 But Russia is the aggressor here, and Ukraine wants to defend itself. Bringing up other bad shit that the US hegemony does doesn't change that
@@noble7461 So helping Ukraine is bad because the US hegemony has done other things, which are actually bad? This is a bafflingly stupid argument. I don't want the Ukrainians to get thrown under the bus under some ridiculous notion of avoiding being hypocritical. They are being invaded, for fucks sake. They need help. If you say killing is wrong, and then you kill someone, and then you help someone else avoid being killed, is you helping the person suddenly a bad action because you're being hypocritical? No. That's retarded.
Based caller; it's so weird that TMR is so wishy-washy on this issue. Yes it's good to have clear goals and an exit strategy but surely we can all agree that the US giving aid to Ukraine to beat Russia's invasion is a good thing to do!
I know for sure that Matt Binder agrees with the caller here. He and Vaush discussed this weird tendency of leftists to oppose US foreign policy, even when it's anti-imperialist.
It’s Matt and Emma mostly pushing the narrative this way. I agree with them on 99% of other topics but they clearly are not approaching this objectively
All I see in the comment thread is people simply saying Sam gave nothing, while not offering any real rebuttal against his concerns of seemingly endless western financial aid. It’s like all you guys have is a vaush tape stuck on repeat in your head, subjectively disagreeing based off of feelings that cannot be completely flushed out. I don’t claim to have it figured out, but I’m not naive enough to go along with the majority of the left that has completely been blindsided this whole year. To paint this as simple as red vs blue / good and evil is not objective. Ringing the nazi bell to stir up national fervor, whether for one’s state or for another is not in the interest of the left. It never will be. Since when do we decide to go down these side roads and get distracted from the actua” concerns of the left? Concerns which once was and should remain to be opposition of war and the toxic outcomes of state power in the hands of oligarchs (& their militaries) and the conflicts that inevitably arise because of it.
No we can't agree on this, do you think arming the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan to beat a Russian invasion was a good thing to do? How do you think that worked out?
@@caad5258 Buddy, the largest military empire in human history turning Ukraine into a militarized sattelite state to weaken Russia is not "anti imperialist"
I agree with the caller on this one, to many leftists think first of how the USA will profit and how it's meddling in this conflict, before how to help human lives in Ukraine. They are correct to do this to the US cause of it's history, but it is possible for US intersets to be alligned with a good cause, the military indusrial complexe is profiting but as the caller said its like that all the time (I would nationalize them). The only person who can end this war is Putin cause he started it, escalated it at every occasion and is toying with nukes now. Some leftists are blinded so much by their rightful distrust of USA geopolitics, but they are still blinded and take agency away from Ukraine who WANTS OUR AID CAUSE THEY ARE BEING INVADED. Matt Binder seems to be the only sensible view (edit) *on the majority report* on the Russia/Ukraine conflict (btw not a USA/Russia proxy war like others may think). America bad is not a useful or good ideology. Even Chomsky has these brainworms, sad(he old af tho).
It is sad to see Chomsky's arguments these days, he has turned in to a useful id**t for China in particular. The old Chomsky put in a modern context, with access to useful information from around the world, would probably not had such bad takes. But todays Chomsky is colored by his beliefs in the past, and they don't hold up. THe left though is always bad with takes on wars, because they naively believe in a state of humanity with no risk of wars, although that goes against everything we know of human nature, and even animal kingdoms. Wars can only be avoided with scare tactics. Otherwise war is unavoidable and then one has to be able to see which side is right or least wrong, and take that side, until there is a situation, where one can actually address the wrongs that still exist on that side, after it has won, or avoided annihilation.
@@TheJonHolstein Chomsky always had this anti western ideology when it comes to international affairs. He downplayed/denied the Cambodian genocide and denies the Bosnian genocide to this day! His access to information isn't the difference, "our" access to check his claims in real time is. One doesn't >repeatedly< stumble into genocide denial/downplaying, while calling the west "terrorists", by accident.
I agree a 100 percent with you brother. Too many leftists are so skeptical of US intentions that they don’t even consider the idea that the United States might be correct in giving Ukraine weapons. Yeah a healthy distrust of US policy is one thing it’s a complete other thing to allow Russia to just roll into Ukraine. Especially with Putin spouting blood and soil ideology. I can’t understand “leftists” who side with Russia especially considering Russias track record on LGBTQ rights, freedom of speech, freedom to assemble etc. America might have our problems but the Russian government and their treatment of their citizens is a fucking dumpster fire. Drafting 50 year old men and locking up people for saying in public they are anti war is just something leftists shouldn’t support but yet there is plenty of “leftists” who support Russia and I honestly just feel it’s to be contrarian. They just wanna have a opinion different from everybody else no matter how wrong that opinion is. Calling Ukraine Nazis even though they elected a Jewish president with a massive majority and most of the top echelons of the government are Jewish and it’s just insane how these “leftists” act. It’s only American leftists because European leftists know what russia is capable of and they are afraid of who russia will attack next. European leftists know they have to stop russia they don’t have the luxury of being pro russia
Say what you want about the Soviet Union but they abide by international agreements whether it’s with the Nazis in the Molotov Ribbentrop pact or any US-Soviet arms reduction treaties. Fascists have no qualms about breaking treaty obligations constantly and whenever it fits their needs. You cannot trust fascist governments like Russia and Putin to abide by any agreement for peace in Ukraine. They agreed in the 90’s to respect Ukrainian sovereignty and they broke both Minsk agreements which were pathways to peace made with the Ukrainian government. Fascist governments cannot be trusted ever full stop. You can’t trust them because they will just find some justification to break the agreement usually claiming victimization. Russia will claim Ukraine attacked them or make some shit up that American and only American “leftists” and fascists will repeat and make Russia look like the good guy. Russia needs to be humbled they’ve attacked multiple neighbors since the 90’s and this is just the most brazen and bold act of aggression they have showed. They need to be humbled and I’m glad Ukraine is doing it. I’m glad they are protecting their rights, land and freedom. I’m proud of that country and what they are doing and America should do whatever it has to short of boots on the ground (at this point) to protect them and Ukrainian sovereignty.
If you are pro democracy, defend democracy. It it is not war mongering to ensure the sovereignty of a democratic republic. This isn't about oil, its about ensuring the world is ruled by its people and not a petro state dictator. Being anti war for its own sake is too reflexive as opposed to principled. There are times when a fight is necessary because its worth fight.
@@buzzhawk LOL! oh okay Troll clearly you need attention - there you got some - you're welcome!! You poor thing. Now go get some actual HUMAN love . Now THAT will actually make you feel better poor thing
I do not wish to gratuitously insult, but your comment reads as American movie-like protagonist rhetoric. This is not the attitude a situation of such gravity requires.
@@poissonrouge8937 Life isn't a movie and human progress has flourished more under democratic republics than any other form of government. You wouldn't even be commenting to me now without the fruits of democracy and the self rule and prosperity it brings. I didn't propose a solution only that there a values and societies worth fighting for. There are good causes and good ideas. It's not from a movie, it's from our human history.
Rare to see Sam get so calmly and thoroughly owned. That was a Great caller. He should be invited back. Why is Sam so confused about parameters and the end game? The parameters are set every time an appropriation is made and conditions are imposed. No nukes. No long range offensive weapons. No systemic war crimes on the part of Ukraine. The end game: Containment of Russia and an independent Ukraine with pre- 2014 borders, a budding alliance with NATO and a shot at EU membership.
Pretty sure it's Ronald Raygun, Sam respects him, he's a friend of the show. When he calls in to have an actual serious conversation, Sam is going to hear him out...
It’s not a left vs right thing . There are plenty of Republicans that don’t want to support the War on Ukraine 🇺🇦. Putin planned this because the world is beaten down after COVID
@@Tamar-sz8ox Yeah, but I don't care about the right's take on this, but the right is basically a collection of bad takes. I care when people on my side of the ideological spectrum are trying to Chamberlain their way into a foreign policy disaster.
Exactly. Even Ukrainian leftist were left hanging. The so called international solidarity hasn't materialized in a time of history where it absolutely should have.
Have you thought, too, the symbolism between Ukraine possibly losing their democracy, and the US losing its democracy at this time? I feel this is powerful right now for Ukrainians and for Americans.
Definitely, if MAGA republicans reach power again in 2024 they'll definitely not leave peacefully on the following elections. Imagine having Putin getting along with Trump, due to their dictator-mentality and eventually leading to the expansion of fascism all over the world.
The US is not the only country paying for the war. The entire Europe won't have enough heat or electricity the coming winter. Most public sector workplaces have turned the heat down throughout the countries. Plus the amounts of weaponry and training and so forth from Europe. There's Ukrainians receiving training in European countries. There's also the issue that Putin has been absent from at least 2 negotiations.
"The entire Europe won't have enough heat or electricity the coming winter." This is the only decent argument I can see against providing support to Ukraine. MR bitching about Western imperialism ain't it.
That's not correct. I'm in Europe and i can tell you that's not correct. The entire Europe is not struggling to have heat or electricity for the winter ...
There is only 1 end game for Ukraine. It has not changed since the beginning. Defend. Up and to border. No further. As Sam said @18:02 And whether or not Ukraine has an end game makes no difference whatsoever to anyone, as long as the US makes clear exactly the conditions and extent of our support. Not 1 nanometer past the border. Are we so cruel to pledge support and only half-ass it? Are we so tamed to these hostilities that we make promises but not keep them? Poland was burned and gutted on that very same ideology. It gave carte-blanche for continued atrocities. A murderer was loosed upon Europe and ran unfettered. And because of the inability and lack of principled integirity, only a bargain with another murderer would bring the Austrian paper-hanger to heel. What loathesome cowardice. I know Sam has heard this but it bears repeating. _First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-because I was not a socialist._ _Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-because I was not a trade unionist._ _Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-because I was not a Jew._ _Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak for me._ *-Martin Niemöller*
The media is the reason that any American cares about what’s happening in Ukraine in the first place. How many Americans know about the war in Yemen or the Tigray war?
I don't think you can compare our helping Ukraine to other wars we got involved in for questionable reasons. The fact that we made mistakes in the past, has nothing to do with being on the right side by helping fund the Ukrainians fight. Fighting fascists is the right thing to do.
It's not like letting Qaddafi level a city to the ground would result in a better country. It is entirely possible he would have been killed anyway and the country would be even more of a shell of itself. In Syria, Assad won and is still alive and it is still a kill zone to this day.
To answer Sam's question if what the endgame is: It ends when Russia leaves. Ukraine, like every other country on earth, has a border decided by the international community. If Russia arbitrarily decides parts of Ukraine is now parts of Russia, it means nothing. When Russia decides to pull out of an unjustified war, the conflict ends. I find this strange interest in holding water for Russia's weird fascist territorial claims so weird. If the US annexed part of Mexico out of nowhere based on the notion that it is a politically stronger entity, I doubt we would be arguing how to deescalate the situation; we would be demanding that the US pulls out of the conflict entirely. Why are we handling this situation as if Russia is a child incapable of reason?
Can you imagine MR arguing that Mexico needs to consider negotiations, i.e. giving up a quarter of Mexico to the US because the US might use nukes? Me neither…
and sam's question is what is our response if russia refuses to leave? and what if they drop nukes? how far is the US willing to go to reach your endgame? i think its an important conversation in light of the mass of other proxy wars the US has been involved in.
@@mosesconspiracy If Russia refuses to leave and the Ukrainians are willing to keep fighting, then the US and other should keep funding the Ukrainians until the cost for Russia is so high that they have to leave. The nuke discussion can't be had, until it happens. US don't know what it will do, and having open conversations, that might make it seem like the US is not willing to use Nukes in that case, does not help deter Russia from using them. The idea of proxy-wars is misguided. IN this war, as well as in Syria, and other so called proxy wars, each party can leave when they feel like it, meaning that they aren't invested in it, like they would be in an acutal war, thus it can't be a proxy war either. The only other way a war can be a proxy war, if two powers test their weapon systems, and the battle is won, only by having superior technology, and because of that become a power demonstration that puts one power on top, then they would not have to test those weapons in a fight they are actually involved. Military strategist in the US, studying this was will realize that Russia has a lot of military resources that they have not put in to this war yet, meaning that they are at this point not willing to sacrifice everything they got, and thus it can't really be used as a way to deplete the resources of the Russian army, to an extent where Russia would be down for count, and if the were, they would still have the nukes protecting them... so no matter if Hillary Clinton makes statements, suggesting that she thinks this i a way to defeat russia as in the russian state, not on this particular battlefield, military strategist don't. This is a war to save Ukraine, and in doing so, hopefully deter Russia from other attempt of occupying other states. If Russia is successfull, than we have a new world order, where we can expect a lot of chaos, and if Russia and china starts acting out, in the ways they can, because they feel US does not have an interest in world stability, it will destroy the global economy, and with that shring the US economy by billions and billions, perhaps even trillions, and then any hope for medicare for all, social security, and other social safetynets will be gone. The Russian economy is already tanked. And China will be able to mostly handle such a situation, because their population lives under a different systemt, with differnt living conditions, and china would have access to the resources of a lot of other nations, that they have already built som political control over, and if free to act on it, will turn to puppet states under Chinese control. Many countries in africa will find themselves under control of China or otehr powers, and their economic growth will be halted, but having such large part of thei rpopulation already living in poverty wil help soften the blow.
The caller is perfectly reasonable . Solidarity with Ukrainians !
Ok but I don’t want to get nuked for a piece of land we only started to care about 2 years ago.
What is the endgame? The endgame is Russia withdrawing to its borders before THEY invaded. Who's said otherwise?
Ok so how do you plan on achieving that goal?
@@danielshepard2315 they are literally in the process of achieving that goal
@D Wally.....The frontlines are actually fixed right now. Unless you get your news from NYT’s, or Yahoo!, or Newsweek.
Seriously, the amount of propaganda in western media is on par with Russian propaganda now.
I would recommend sources like The Duran, or New Atlas. 😉
@@danielshepard2315 keep on licking, DannyBoy! 👢 😋
@@danielshepard2315 really dude, you that dense, what do you think ukraine is doing right now. They swept their Karkiv in days, and are currently in the process of breaking through to Kherson.
It is only a matter of time before Russia is back to the pre-invasion borders.
I unironically love the TMR audience, they can agree that a caller "won" a debate with Sam and say Sam was in the wrong, yet still not resort to insulting or name-calling against him for it. You almost never see that in *any* online leftist political community.
Agreed
I was gonna agree but then I just saw a commenter calling Sam “lame”
@@galedribble9535 He was probably talking about lame trolls like you. 😂
@@blascantu7221 no amount of money in the world could get you to explain how I’m a “troll”
I don’t think he won. Sam raised a legitimate point about what the end game is that the caller never answered.
I'm with Raygun on this one. I don't think that the endgame is all that mysterious: get Russia out of Ukraine completely or as much as possible given the reality of how the war unfolds. That seems to me to be a reasonable goal. Kudos also to Sam and Matt for a thoughtful and respectful conversation.
@@Qq-xs1fz The endgame should be Russia totally out of Ukraine. Nothing more so not to risk escalation.
@@joshkirby2372 what about Crimea?
That is the only good way this ends. Sam here is asking how this ends. Where this needs to end is a Ukrainian 2014 border with Russia on the other side of that line and a Ukrainian defense in depth. This would include Ukraine being accepted as a member of NATO. Yes, that's a lot of work short term and long term but it is well worth doing. The next six months of US support for Ukraine or lack of support for Ukraine may well determine the economic and geopolitical position of the United States for the next fifty years.
@@justatiger6268 Crimea is part of Ukraine. Russia took it by force and a staged election. The only question, is if it is realistic that Ukraine can take Crimea back. At this point, is seems there is some chance Ukraine might be able to .
@@Qq-xs1fz Putin's the one weakening Russia, Ukrainians are simply defending themselves.
Also, even tho NATO is in the right for the most part, they're no angels and some degree of skepticism never hurts.
big fan of the show but I'm 95% with the caller on this one
How much are you willing to pay for gas? $10/gal? $20?
@@thejfactor1 how much would you pay to stop the next holocaust?
Ukraine is a waste of time.
@@thejfactor1 Infinity. We should use this as a convenient excuse to start moving away from oil/gas/black blood of the earth.
@@thejfactor1 we could just ban exports
Sam and the Majority Report gets so much right but they really have missed the mark on Ukraine and I hope they take this moment to realize they have been coming off very wishy washy on the fascism coming out of Russia.
Only Matt Binder had a decent take and he talked to dylan burns and vaush on it on his channel
Sam and Emma are just embarrassed that they are literally the same horse shit fascist like Jimmy Dore and Tucker Carlson but instead of admitting they were wrong on Ukraine they decide to double down and go full tankie fascist in support of Putin.
Honestly I blame Lech. I love Lech, but I can see how is initial perspective of the war has slowly influenced Emma and Sam.
Fascism from Russia is better than complete obliteration by the West tbh
It's insane that you aren't even allowed to question funding a decade long proxy war in Ukraine without having a "bad take"
100% with the caller.
I’m 100% against turning Ukraine into Afghanistan to weaken Russia
Still with him?
@@patrick9445im with him 100% and its almost been a year
@@patrick9445yes
@@patrick9445 Anyone who cares about the people is, yes.
I am one hundred percent with this caller! I could not agree more.
When has a US proxy war against Russia ever ended well and produced good outcomes for the world?
yes, absolutely!
Why don't you crypto-Nazi agreers go and fight in Ukropistan?
@Henry F Wagons What about the cold war? Arming the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan? how did that work out? Arming the contras in Nicaragua? how did that one go?
Well our lack of engagement in actually standing up to Stalin (who the west overestimated) maybe could have saved millions of lives. I get what you are saying our lust in standing up to communism caused a lot of misery in the world but in Ukraine these are people wanting to fight for their country and people that Putin wants to wipe out. Someone needs to stand up to him
What kind of precedent do you think giving in to nuclear blackmail will have?
Countries with nukes will realize they can get whatever they want, roll over any non-nuclear country they want, and extort whatever they want just by the threat.
Countries without nukes will realize they need them ASAP.
What kind of world do you want?
No one wants that world, yet it is has always been that way. Why are we risking total destruction for pride? When my country burns in a glowing fire, shall I take solace in the fact it cost the Russians too?
Isn't that whats been happening all over history post nukes?
Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Ukraine itself?
Theres a reason countries with nuclear capabilities dont get invaded.
Super powers dont want to risk a nuclear war when their economy depends on global trade market.
That world already exist. The US destroyed Afganistan, Iraq, Lybia and Syria i the last 20 years and no one was punished for that. We live in a world that might makes right
@@gustavo3755 So you're saying that we should allow Ukraine to be genocided because the US has "no dog in the race"?
@@gustavo3755 The US "won" none of these engagements because of its nuclear arsenal, or the threat it posed.
Rare time the caller is correct. Sam was a bit too nuanced, didn’t really make a clear point other than “we should have a conversation about financing a war”. Well duh, that’s a given.
He realizes we essentially financed the allied forces during World war II prior to our intervention right? And that was the right thing to do.
I don't think you really understand what the word "nuance" means, what you're describing here is Sam being too vague.
A bit too nuanced? You sound like a low information RepubliKKKan.
@@iRadinVerse that was actually debated though . Ukraine is just a blank check.
But it's not given, it's not duh when almost no one in American politics is talking about the consequences of a proxy war in Ukraine
I've never seen Sam this lame in a conversation before, caller is 100% in the right and this whole conversation was so disappointing.
Yeah, I agree. Sam's "Uhs and erms" have never been so annoying. I love Sam, but this was hard to watch.
100% right with no clear settlement?
Just stop being myopic and it won't be so hard to hear.
@@triknives wont hear what? The yawns from the American European public?
This was a brutal call to listen to. Thanks Raygun, you really brought humanity to this discussion.
But not logic
Ah yes the “humanity” of turning Ukraine into Afghanistan to weaken Russia
@@nectarinedreams7208 Humanity is more important than logic when you are talking about nuclear war. If human beings thought rationally, the world would have ended in nuclear armageddon when Kennedy was in office.
@@nectarinedreams7208 you clearly aren’t logical.
@@boomzy9532 how is nuclear war logical? Logic is why we all understand mutually assured destruction
Sam talking about dropping nukes on Moscow and Russian civilians is the first time I’ve heard being mentioned as a possibility in this conflict. Almost all conversations about nuclear weapon usage has been about Russia using them on Ukraine.
Sam’s question regarding the end goal of supplying Ukraine is also strange as the US’s goal has always been to contain Russia from expanding. No one is asking for blood on the streets of Moscow here, Sam. We want Ukraine to have the chance to be an independent nation capable of governing themselves without the threat of a fascist dictator.
Literally, these questions have been answered by the Ukrainian government. They want their land back, including Crimea, Zelenskyy doesn't give a fuck about Putin or what happens to him.
Wait, that's just too rational.
Lie pos zelenski keeps calling for nukes
I’ve seen people discussing the possibility of dropping nukes on Russia a lot. It’s been discussed alongside any and all possible responses to Russia dropping nukes
How can you expect that not to be discussed when both the US and Russia have nukes?
I feel we should go all in. That needs to be the endgame. Putin's regime is fascist to the core. Unless we deal with it the way we dealt with Nazi Germany, with Putin dead, his cronies in prison or also dead, the whole country physically totally destroyed, and rebuilt from the ground up as a western, liberal democracy, this is going to keep happening. Tyrants never stop, and they're never satisfied. This is going to keep happening, unless we stop it permanently.
If you don't stand up to bullies, and support your friends when they are being bullied, then you lose the moral high ground, and your integrity. This goes the same for countries.
Yes because global politics is simplified to bullies and standing up to bullies and not what happens when bullies have the ability to destroy the world
@@tomg3285 If Putin is shown that he can just invade countries and shout about nukes if he's opposed, do you really think the world will be a safer place?
@@tomg3285 better roll over and do nothing then 🙄
bro simplified international relations to playground bullies 💀
@@anecdotal_mattybs5435 better to roll and live another day than to live in nuclear hellfire
I’m with the caller on this one. We know already know what the limits are because we would have already crossed them at the very beginning of the conflict when those options were there. Breaking Putin’s back might also slow or stop the spread of fascism and that might actually be the strategy.
@@GQ2593 we knew at the beginning that Bush was lying about Saddam.
@@theschwartzawakens9021 Wrong then, wrong now. More countries have experienced fascism because of US interventions than by any actions of Russia.
@@GQ2593 You don't know much about Russia.
@@GQ2593 lol
You’re flirting with nuclear Holocaust there lad
Seems we haven't had the conversation about the risk of rising global fascism enough. Thanks, caller!
You understand that Ukraine is a far right country itself.
They don't allow socialists or communist parties and they've ripped up workers rights.
Neither Russia or Ukraine are progressive countries.
It's understandable that Ukrainians will risk nuclear war for their country, but you can't expect the rest of the world to just be happy with that.
One problem I've seen is that a lot of the younger generation havnt experienced the mistakes of the US in the past when they've pumped money into countries for war.
There's nothing unreasonable with wanting an idea of what the end goal is, after all that's been the problem in the past, unforeseen outcomes.
And Im glad russia is doing something about it by bashing the nazis in ukraine
@@AlexeiX1 If I were you I'd be much more worried about the nuclear-armed fascists in Russia
@@AlexeiX1 Ah yes, targeting .01% of some military groups by stealing their children, torturing, raping, starving, killing civilians (mostly russian-speaking and having nothing to do w azov) in ukraine. Very cool.
@Anmol Biswas.....Maybe the west should consider diplomacy before war? Just an idea. 😉
But no, it’s 100% Putin’s fault. 😂
The caller is right.
Caller is 100 percent right. Sam and guys fell short on this one.
I share the sentiment. And although Sam is not wrong, I thought in this case the end game was pretty much defined and agreed upon even by the Ukraine
@Robert Martin because these people aren’t real leftists. They’re just liberals who just discovered that the mainstream media is trash and they’ve found an alternative outlet on UA-cam. These people are woke neocons
@@AxelC2020 It really is. I don't know why Sam is pretending like it's not.
This caller is biased and emotional due to his personal relationship to Ukraine. War decision shouldn’t be made based on emotion. We should have learned that from Iraq and Afghanistan.
@@nepaliyuva408they’re liberal neocons
Hearing Raygun being passionate & serious is great. Just as great is how Seder is always willing to give a platform to an opposing view.
Totally agree great debate
I agree with Raygun on this one.
Great call. First time I have seen a clip from a caller that I 100% agree with. Slava Ukraine!
You agree with the hysterical pearl clutching about "Russian fascism" while ending your post with a literal fascist slogan... that's... a choice, I suppose.
@@janosmarothy5409 You're one to talk about pearl clutching. Talk about a lack of self-awareness. Jesus wept, man..
Yes.
I guess you only watched 3 minutes of the clip. You should finish it. You'll see the caller said nothing. And Sam only agreed to continue funding Ukraine. But hey, Im just a guy that listened to the whole thing.
@@janosmarothy5409 Saying "slava ukraini" is a facist statement, is like saying "god bless america" is a facist statement...
Ray gun isn’t talking about the “news” Sam, he is talking about your show.
It's crazy to me that Emma and Sam aren't on the side of helping Ukraine. This war has the most obvious good and bad sides I've ever seem. This is truly WW2 all over again and it's strange they can't see that.
@@lololounge8281 it’s not wild to me for them to be cautiously suspicious of the US, tht is just common sense for US behavior.
But in this case, some left people have a real hard time not diving into conspiracy theory about the US.
You just can’t do that to the degree that you see this situation and basically are saying let them sort it out, even if that means brutality for Ukrainians.
One, it’s immoral, but more importantly who is going to trust you for the future as Allie’s or being for good, if you just let the weak get eaten by the strong.
@@rexfordmorgan7552 I 100% understand what you are saying. I guess I just expected people like Dore, Kulinsk, TYT and of course, those uber lefty guys that default to all war is bad to be on this side of the issue. I would think Sam would be more like raygun.
For the record, I have no idea where any of the above people actually stand on the war. I'm just talking about assumptions.
I also think that what Ukraine itself wants matters. And people are going, "it will be worse for them if we intervene because who knows what Biden will ACTUALLY do" - wow I disagree with that. They have a government and officials and they analyzed whose help they wanted. Give it to them. I promise, I have a hunch that Zelenskyy is more savvy at this than us.
@@rexfordmorgan7552 If you cover enough of US international politics you know there isn't such a thing as the US's "good will" when it comes to these kinds of involvements.
Coups for one get started in the guise of lending a hand.
@@WizPigTactics U.S. involvement in WWII also wasn't good will, but it still would have been foolhardy to oppose that involvement. Aiding Ukraine against Russian invasion is likewise a rare case where geopolitical self-interest and a more principled morality happen to align.
I love this caller and agree with him 100%.
Caller is 100% wrong and completely clueless to US motives and danger of their involvement, or the actual history of the situation
@@donovan4222 no, you appear to be the idiot here. Also the callers wife is Ukrainian genius. And just like me, has a first hand knowledge and hear about what is happening from the source. Also what history? You mean when ruzzia had their puppet Yanukovich go against the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians will to join the EU in favour for CIS? Or when Ukrainians finally had enough and through out the ruzzian puppet after he had police open fire on peaceful protestors killing over 130 civilians?
@@donovan4222 the us might have exterior motives therefore we should allow russia to commit genocide and cut off prisoners of wars heads because the us by helping ukraine fight off an imperialist dictatorship invading them might get something out of it for themselfs
Is that your position
@@TylerMarkRichardson Not the US “might” have exterior motives, their motive is to weaken Russia using Ukrainian bodies. The US isn’t helping Ukraine, they are turning it into Afghanistan.
Many thanks to this caller
Want to start WW3?
@@sullen2420 ww3 is going to start - or not - regardless of what Uzo, Sullen, or KingslayerSrb want or do not want. Your comment is literally a guy pointing a gun to my head and saying "wanna get shot?". Well, I don't, but I'd also like for you not to point a gun to my head, especially when I actually have a bigger gun than you do. You really are the type of people who back in 1930s were apologetic towards Hitler. Look how well that turned out to be. Want it or no, there's only one way to deal with a mad dictator.
@@sullen2420 WW2 began because everyone appeased Hitler.
@@jry0511 Hitler didn't have nuclear weapons, you dolt.
@@KingslayerSrb Putin is NOT Hitler, you dolt. This is a war between neighbors that we should NOT be involved in. If Putin has plans to invade France, then we can talk WWIII. Ukraine is NONE of our fucking business. You act like Ukraine is a major ally of the U.S., it's not. Putin can have ALL of Ukraine and it wouldn't be worth starting nuclear armageddon over. Your mind has become numb from all the U.S. propaganda, you were against George Bush, weren't you? How old are you?
Its important to remember that the US government having alternative motives doesn't make supporting Ukraine wrong. You can do the right thing for the wrong reasons.
Exactly. I was kinda surprised Sam made that argument about Biden and trans people. He's too smart for that. I feel like he was starting to backpedal and lose the debate at that point.
That is typically how the US acts in conflicts, by doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. The issues typically arise from the US then not caring enough, to actually create enough stability with aid, and building civil structures, for a better society to grown in the region. With Ukraine, if the leadership survives, and they are allowed to keep systems to defend themselves against new Russian aggressions, there is a fair chance Ukraine, can get out of this in a good way. But in poor countries, with democracy completely torn down, US has to do the right things after the conflict, to forward that society in the right direction.
The problem is that there alternative motives involve undermining negotiations and continuing the war as long as possible to weaken Russia, to the point where Boris Johnson even threatened Zelensky to not negotiate with Putin.
@@danielshepard2315 Russia is the one that doesn't want to negotiate. Putin doesn't offer compromise. He makes demands. Also, it's impossible to negotiate with someone who will simply lie with every breath. Putin promises humanitarian corridors and then bombs the civilians trying to use them. That's who we're dealing with. Weakening Russia is actually the only way to get them to negotiate in good faith, if that's even possible. The only way this can end is with a security guarantee for Ukraine (either with the United States or nato membership) and the occupiers out of all ukranian territories for good. Ukraine will NEVER stop fighting until this is achieved, REGARDLESS of whether nato supports it or not. With NATO support Ukraine can win. They've proven that. If NATO withdraws it support Ukraine will turn into Afghanistan, only WORSE. Withdrawing support is what will actually prolong the war. The choice is actually simple. Support Ukraine until they've expelled the occupiers or abandon Ukraine and watch on TV from the comfort of your home as millions are raped, tortured and murdered in the streets in a genocide, which lets putin and China know that all they have to do is threaten nuclear war and the west will submit and allow them to do anything they want from now on. Those are your options .
@@danielshepard2315 Let's even pretend for a second that you're completely right and that your conspiracy theory is true. So wait, weakening Russia is a bad thing now? I'm all for weakening fascist regimes. Aren't you? It's a very weird take for a Leftist to not want to see anti-democratic states diminish in power. Are you a Leftist?
The *one* time I completely disagree with Sam on something. I believe the caller was right here. Make no mistake, Ukraine is winning (or so it looks) because of our, and other countries, help.
This comment aged well :X
@@LL-cz5ql
This comment aged well. 😂
Rare time Sam is just dead wrong. Emma saying we dont have a dog in this fight is borderline disgusting too.
You right, Ukraine gave a lot of money to hunter Biden and the deep state, they should get something for their investment
our dog in the fight is preventing a genocide of an entire culture, jesus Emma. do human lives outside of our country matter or not?
yeah what emma said actually shocked me.
@@aceflyer25 You have an ongoing genocide of Native Americans at home.
@Adam Jacobs because Ukrainian lives are precious with their blue eyes and fair skin, unlike the dark skinned Yemenis or Palestinians. In fact screw the latter group, in fact let's fund their destruction by giving arms to isareal and Saudi Arabia, and cry about precious Ukrainian lives! Libs are awesome!
Gotta say, I think the caller is right here. I think we (speaking for myself as an American) have become highly suspicious of getting involved in foreign conflicts in any capacity. And that suspicion is well-founded. But I don't think that should blind us to moments where there's a fight that really is worth fighting, and this is one such case
I love TMR, but their Ukraine takes have been awful. I hear them use nuclear war as their defense for appeasement for Russia, but what's to dissuade Russia if we keep rewarding them for violating international law?
Like the us invasion of Iraq?
@@mlawlor472 are you suggesting the US annexed Iraq?
@@mlawlor472 That was bad too and completely irrelevant to this topic.
Why does anyone care what you think you literally support a pedophile lmao
@@Chordgaille what
I agree with the caller for the first time.
This caller is right 100%
This caller is wrong 100% there I fix it for you
This was one of the best conversations. I'm leaning towards the caller though. He made great points
Love this caller. He’s very self aware.
I like Ronald Raygun usually, he seems like a nice guy, but he's very biased on this and grasping at straws. The fact that many in the audience agree with him concerns me deeply. If you think the Ukrainian state or the USA give two shits about "The Ukrainian Trans teens"... I just don't know what to tell you.
Saddam Hussein was a really bad guy too, so was Milosevic, I'm no fan of the Taliban.
But it's the same script every fucking time guys. They try to paint other other party in as bad a light as they can, they say they're defending democracy or sovereignty. What about Afghanistan's sovereignty? Hell, what about Ukraine's sovereignty when the USA couped Viktor Yanukovych? What about Russia's sovereignty? It's a childish argument to make, to talk about sovereignty in a world dominated by a US Hegemon that you literally live in and under the blanket of protection of.
The US and the UK won't even let Zelensky negotiate with the Russians if he wanted to, they torpedoed the peace talks in Turkey. Putin is a brutal thug in charge of the remnants of the former USSR, but he's fighting against the biggest gangster on the block in the USA. The USA is so criminal and so cynical, they won't even risk US soldiers lives in this war and don't care how many Ukranians die weakening Russia for them to colonize and people like you guys eat up all their propaganda and actually call Russia the Imperialists here. It's a joke.
@@FakeKraid ho boy... and you haven’t eaten up Russian propaganda on your end BADLY🤣🤦♂️ no no.. it’s everyone BUT you... ok bud...
Such typical “What-about-ism” for the majority of it.., “wHaT aBoUt WhAt ThE US hAS DonE!?” - and then my favourite Part - Russia invading Ukraine, jacking and annexing land from a sovereign independent country, is “Russia fighting the big bad US” - and “only people who’ve bought into propaganda believe it’s Russian Imperialism”
Nevermind the other great part:
“The US is so evil, they won’t even send American troops half way around the world to fight and start a proxy war that could VERY easily lead to a full scale WWIII!... (if they DO send troops, you’d turn around and call THAT “evil” 🤦♂️)
These are the same goofballs who‘ll claim “Russia is just defending themselves here” - and WE bought into propaganda 🤦♂️
Putin; Ukraine are terrorist for blowing up our bridge to Crimea... that’s why I bombed 13 cities, the heart of their capital, targeted apartment buildings and civilian infrastructure... killed over 80-100x+ as many people in their attack we’re responding too... and injured countless more... Those damned terrorist over in Ukraine and over in the West... it was those Damned Americans and Brits that made us kill all those civilians, and commit open atrocities and war crimes with countless civilian casualties...
@@FakeKraid Raygun is wrong but your take is also wrong. This isnt an existential fight of American Imperialism vs Russian defense. Its imperialism vs imperialism.
This war was started because Ukrainian gas fields in the east posed an existential threat to the survival of Russia and its ability to control Europes gas markets going forward. EU was looking to add Ukraine for this reason when Putin suddenly invaded. Eastern Ukraine has a ton of gas and all the pipelines from old USSR days. The tools needed to completely make Russia irrelevent forever. The invasion is about annexing these regions and prolonging the O&G age for Russia a few more decades. Victory for Russia will be making Ukranian O&G investment in the east completely unviable. Rn nobody will invest in a war zone.
@@FakeKraid lol shut up vatnik, go help your fellow Russians with the color revolution
I love Sam and the MR crew but I disagree here.
Agree with the caller.
I'm with Raygun in this one he should call more. 🇺🇦 👀
Matt has been one of the biggest contrarians on this topic. Emma too but Matt is the one who keeps asking open ended questions that come across as really obtuse. Like it isn’t just the US supporting this war it’s basically every European country plus more
It's what he does.
You are mentioning this international coalition as a morally correct authority. Why must you defer to this to hold your position? Ignoring the US diplomatic control over my and many other countries, You must base your opinion not on the “Who” but the “Why”. A bad person does not make a good action bad, or vice versa. The assessment of the action itself is solely relevant.
@@poissonrouge8937 calm down I didn’t say any of that I just said it isn’t only the US backing Ukraine here the entire EU is basically behind Ukraine and for morally justifiable reasons. They don’t want Russia pushing any further into EU it’s obvious if you live in an EU country like I do. The US has influence sure but you can’t discount the entire 29 countries of NATO backing Ukraine with near unanimity
“Basically every European country” you mean America and its vassal states in Western Europe that they have absorbed into NATO and/or occupied militarily since the end of WW2? That’s about as impressive as Belarus supporting Russia.
@@donovan4222🙄
and Sam's whataboutism is telling, the caller is correct.
It’s also something Matt and Emma have been really pushing, Sam seems more ambivalent about it
The caller lives in a fantasy world.
@@ayeguyy779 Nah he’s spot on
I understand the empathetic place the MR crew has been coming from with this conflict, but I personally believe that everything must be done to prevent fascism. We can never give that kind of evil an inch.
Come on don't be a coward what does everything to prevent fascism mean just saying nuking Russia
@@tomg3285 The only country threatening anyone with nukes in this war IS Russia....
@@tomg3285 Nuking Russia wouldn't prevent fascism though, it would just kill millions of people needlessly. Funding Ukraine's defense against in invasion prevents the spread of fascism without killing people needlessly
@@tomg3285 no one said nuke anything. The US could remove the armed forces of Russia from the earth without even thinking about nukes. They don’t even have to do that, they have been going over and above call of duty by providing arms to help Ukrainians help themselves. With help from the rest of nato they can push Russia out.
Also we need to protect Taiwan till 2026 when our domestic CHIP making plants come online.
What we need is access to 5 Nm or less chips.
I like that someone brought it up. It's been strange for me watching these segments putting the onus on Ukraine to end this.
Ronald is hitting the nail on the head with how they talk about it and... Glad to see it drawn out.
Yeah, Sam’s take sucks.
@@dogecoin1692 i would say i agree more with the caller than sam, but i also see where sam is coming from. Yes, helping Ukraine protect itself is morally justifiable. They both agree on that, but it is worth mentioning the US's track record and making sure that the Ukraine conflict DOESNT become like that of Yemen, Iraq, etc.
saying his take "sucks" is a bit strange when they really dont disagree that much.
@@purts2hen to avoid a Yemen or Iraq situation there must be oversight as to how the weapons the US gives to Ukraine are being used. In Yemen the Saudis have been quite irresponsible with the bombs the US gave them.
@@twistedyogert ok? Are you replying to the right person?
So proud of this community holding the show accountable
I've been volunteering in Ukraine since the start of the war. Relieved to read to comments section here which is surely more indicative of public opinion that the mislead opinions of the host here.
Nice! We support you.
First of all, thank you for being an active force for good in this fucking war. And secondly, can I ask you what exactly are you doing as a volunteer? Can anyone help as a volunteer, even if we don't have medical experience and speak bad Russian/Ukrainian?
@@johnaarson There have been so many volunteers joining as to be turned away because the Ukrainian Army just can't field them all. However humanitarian volunteers are always needed and appreciated, and the population has volunteered and mobilized to help the Army in any way possible. Nations around Ukraine have also had insane amounts of volunteers to help.
Slava Ukraine! 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
You Ukrainians are literally no better than the Russians with all due respect, you work with countries like Turkey who oppress human rights and see no problem with that for some bizarre reason and call yourselves the "good guys" despite working with dictators
You said it the other day, but this show does have the best callers and listeners.
Most intelligent and passionate. Ray gun is a legend. I agree with ethically almost everything even if I don't agree with his perception of motivations of Emma and Matt.
They don't deserve them.
@@florinadrian5174 they absolutely do
@@antieatingactivist Well, they just lost me. Can't forgive tankyness.
@@florinadrian5174 that’s not what a tankie is but okay.
Nobody is always right and MR is definitely wrong on this one.
Sadly true
How so, please?
@@justr6982 the same way Chamberlain was wrong.
@@mat3714 no, that is absolutely a strawman of what Sam said. He explicitly is not for appeasement
Agreed
Thank you for this call, Raygun. The MR coverage on Ukraine has been heart breakingly absent of understanding. Also, the minute Sam started saying that 2014 was OK because, "people lost interest in coverage", I was just counting the minutes to when he'd, w/ no self-awareness, bring up, "but what about Yemen!" MR loves defaulting to Yemen as if that excuses Ukraine.
Yea you missed the point
What I got from Sam here is that "nobody talks about the money that we sending", but there is people who constantly talking about it, we call them the republican party
@@hatrick3117 The republicans support sending money to Ukraine, they just concern troll about it because Biden is doing it. And even that is too much for anyone to handle apparently
@@danielshepard2315 so are they going to troll and galvanise people around themselves with that message and when they take power be like: we actually was pro-Ukraine all along, I don't get it
@@hatrick3117 Yes, that's literally what they are doing. The Senate voted 86-11 for the $40 billion Ukraine aid package. Literally the only reason some republicans are pretending to be concerned about sending weapons to Ukraine is because Biden is the one currently doing it.
The caller is right. MR coverage of the war has been really disappointing. The segment Emma did a couple of weeks ago was getting close to Dore/Tracey/Hinkle level. Binder was there to add a bit of sanity thankfully.
I know people have a short memory, but it *was* a big deal in 2014 that Obama pretended he would retaliate against Russia then did nothing. It was one of the biggest IR story of the year, if not *the* biggest.
Anyway, it’s sad, I hope MR can wake up on this milquetoast centrist take that only end up benefitting the extreme right.
Maybe you were joking, but the milquetoast centrists are almost 100% on the side of Ukraine here. Libs and Neocons have the right take, and it is utterly depressing that elements of the left can't recognize that geopolitical interests for once align with the moral position. Insane tankies aside, it almost seems like an aesthetic thing for many, they are afraid of appearing nationalistic or bloodthirsty? Or maybe just a reflexive USA bad / pacifist position?
The whole thing is very strange for me.
I agree. Very disappointing.
Its funny that you people used to pretend to be against war. Apparently that was always a lie.
@@juventinocasillas3023 I'm against killing innocent people and I'm for killing evil people. Simple as that.
@@juventinocasillas3023 “Invading Afghanistan / Iraq under false pretense and killing thousands of their civilians is bad and the U.S. should have been stopped.”
“Putin invading Ukraine under false pretenses and killing thousands of civilians is bad and Russia should be stopped.”
This Guy: Wow, hypocritical much??
Sorry MR but we do have a dog in this fight. This war is no longer about just Ukraine. This is a battle between liberal democracy and global authoritarians (that includes the republican party). As flawed as Western democracy has been, I'll fight to preserve what we have rather than end up in a fascist hellscape.
Well said.
Exactly this.
if you live in America you already live in a fascist country
No it's not. Ukraine was not any more or less democratic before the pro US government took over in 2014. If anything, it was less democratic because they overthrew the elected government in a violent coup. The US is a global authoritarian, far more destructive and powerful than Russia is, not just the republican party, democratic foreign policy is also authoritarian. This has nothing to do with democracy, having a pro western government doesn't=democracy.
99.9% of American do not have dog in the fight. But we should still help urkraine. It just a matter of to what degree. We definitely have dog in the fight in this country against fascist putin loving republicans party though.
Raygun = BASED
I love this show and I love its audience. Who the hell else is having this conversation? Thanks Sam, thanks Raygun.
Exactly
I agree with Sam but huge respect for Raygun.
This conversation has been happening in other leftist communities (eg Vaush, Dylan Burns). It’s good this convo is happening here as well, but this convo is not novel.
@@chiritarisu6484 thanks for that, will have a look!
Alot of people who are apprehensive about helping Ukraine dont seem to realize they are literally siding with Republicans(american fascists) and their talking points. Which is ironic to look at honestly.
Caller won this debate. Brilliant analysis
He didn't have one, beyond "putin bad"
You're just blowing smoke up his ass.
@@arfived4 Caller also said global fascism bad. Putin and fellow fascists are working in tandem to corporately own this warming planet. I completely agree w the caller. I like this show but sometimes Sam Seder seems too long winded and pedantic. Yet overall show is informative and supportive of progressivism.
@@buzzhawk Global Fascism need to be defeated.
Aw man, dad and dad are fighting again. I’m with Reagun on this one.
Sam this is one of the few times where there is very little nuance and your approach to the issue doesn't hold up
Where’s the nuance in the callers argument?
@@SuburbanOrigin there isn't that's my point
Sam is trying to make the war in Ukraine nuanced when there isn't any nuance to it
@@connormcconnell7805 there is no nuance? Really? Man, flying real high on ignorance. 2022 is a good year for it apparently.
@@SuburbanOrigin you asked where the nuance is implying there is none, then say there is nuance in your next message.. stop pussy footing and state your opinion
@@lily4813ds ?
Agreed with caller, there are some things for which "no dog in the fight" mentality is not only callous but also collaterally harmful.
@@Cussy69_420 you can decide, by actually learning about it yourself and coming to an assessment, rather than just pontificating and remaining intentionally uninformed
@@Cussy69_420 I see those criticisms as often as ongoing discourse, especially with Palestine and Yemen separately, though they are not apples to apples in global impact (future thinking sustenance chains, NATO membership and tensions) and thus receive less attention from media outlets especially. I do think racism plays more a role than people are willing to admit.
On the broad Left and prior military, I am no fan of war, though we are not (yet) living in a world of ubiquitous sustainable plenty (improving tech, yet lacking political will) and must engage (actual) global dilemmas as they arise, in my relatively ignorant opinion.
@@ryvyr They receive less media attention because US media generally supports, or just ignores US crimes. US media serves power, and the interests of people in power is to weaken Russia, not to stop war crimes. So when it comes to Ukraine, US media is suddnely anti imperialist freedom fighters. When it comes to Palestine, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Americans are mostly silent or just don't care. I can guarantee you that you won't see the Ukraine flag bio guy liberals putting Palestine or Yemeni flags in their bios any time soon.
Also, you can engage in global dilemmas without supporting a war as the solution.
@@danielshepard2315 Fair points all around, and I should know better with Chomsky being large part of youth awakening. Circumstantially I remain in support of aid without a designated cap or date, otherwise am remainded of Beau's framing of foreign affairs being about power rather than morality.
@@ryvyr I'm not necessarily against all military aid to Ukraine at this point, I just think the conversation should be focused on an actual diplomatic solution to the war, which is definitely lacking in the discourse. For example, the progressive caucus recently tried to release a letter to Biden advocating for the US to attempt diplomatic solutions in Ukraine and there was such fierce backlash from other democrats that Jayapal basically backed down and capitulated and said it was a mistake.
I don't understand the comparison to Libya and Gaddafi. One is helping militants have a revolution (which we suck at) and another is aiding a country that asked for help?
One day it'll become clearer.
its an issue called "american diabolism" where people see each action by the US as always evil, which is usually right admittedly, but in this case it leads to the wrong conclusion. those got brought up because we had our hands in the interventions, and if you dont view the actions on their own and instead as "US intervention is bad" you can get confused.
It’s imperialism. Zelensky will be the next Saddam in our lifetime.
He is saying in a these examples we need a clearly defined end game and exit strategy, not that all these instances were the same thing. Sam was having difficulty articulating this but that was my interpretation.
It's adorable that you think the US is just "helping people who ask for help" how do you think the pro western government took power in 2014? What do you think the US has been doing the last 8 years in Ukraine?
Caller is on point, but also and probably more importantly supporting Ukraine is a huge strategic win for the US. its not often that one of those strategic wins aligns with a moral win, we need to take this one.
It's one of those rare times in which neocons are actually waging a good war.
Only because u are fascists, 97% voted to exit ukraine but 100% of Western fascists have decided they cannot exit. they don’t even speak Russian and have never even visited, but they are experts... Medical experts as well... Bahahaha.
@@jayz8839 ok vlad z
Let’s give Ukrainian Nazis billions more to fight for “freedom and democracy.”
I hate how people just characterize this as "supporting Ukraine" as if the current Ukrainian government isn't an American client state propped up by billions of dollars of US investment and military training/weapons for the last 8 years
This caller is spitting facts, say it louder for the people in back
This caller is very informed and he definitely won this debate! I love the show and Sam but this time this guy did an amazing job debating his point💪🏽
There is no good argument for not assisting Ukraine. There just isn’t.
We'll uh good, Sam wasn't arguing that we don't assist them
There's a huge reason not to. Point being Ukraine's extreme right. Ukraine as a majority are overtly alt right.
You don't think it's strange how if you even question sending weapons to Ukraine everyone loses their minds? We are living in a state of pure hysteria and war propaganda that is escalating us dangerously close to nuclear war.
@@stefsam4583 They are far more left than Russia though, no supporting them just lead to their population being further right
there's not even a good argument for negotiating to allow putin to have crimea. give russia a meter, they'll take a kilometer.
i love you guys so much but you did get this one wrong. like the caller said democracy matters. and in my personal opinion that's anywhere in the world.
Well then you should hate the US , cuz we've destroyed more democracies than I can count....
The US has famously done a great job “protecting democracy and freedom” in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Cuba, Egypt, etc etc right?
@Nicholas Time
Blablabla victoria nuland blablabla Ivan katchanovsky
Tired russian troll talking points.
Its not like ukrainians have any agency and were all up to protest a russian puppet decision of transforming ukraine into a bellarussian type open air museum, instead of integrating with European Union, like it was promised by that russian puppet in the campaign. Promise he broken without giving any reason by ending the negotiations of ukraine EU membership.
He also enrolled titushkas and Berkut to stomp the protests and were pushing dictatorial laws.
But sure. No russian influence there....
Just usa pushing the gullible out to the streets in order to fight their best intrest of being a puppet state for Vladimir Putin. Like chechnya or bellarus.
That usa is devil.
How is this about democracy when the entire conflict started over Euromaidan overthrowing the elected pro Russian government and replacing it with a pro western government against the wishes of the eastern half of the country?
@@theboss4359 doing the right thing is doing the right thing, worrying about some vague notion of the hypocrisy of the ever changing entity known as America is irrelevant
Sam’s arguments sound just like the republicans when it comes to spending on social
Issues
Ouch.
Oof
No, not really
The "Endgame" Sam, is that there isn't a single Russian solider in Ukrainian territory. Zelensky and defense officials have been very clear on this.
What will actually come out of this continued insane policy is that there won't be a single Ukrainian man between the ages of 20-30 alive on Ukrainian land.
Right?? Sam was giving serious “But… dr Fauci said masks were bad that one time” vibes
is that worth a nuclear exchange with russia?
@@mosesconspiracy Depends if russia is insane enough to drop a nuke over a random ukrainian village they lost control over. But if they are then all diplomatic efforts are mute anyway since there was no scrupel using nukes willy-nilly anyway.
@@mosesconspiracy Russia threaten nukes every time they stub their toe and will continue to threaten it no matter what the US's actions are. Literally the only move that will make nuclear war less likely is demonstrating that Russia only harms itself with wars of aggression
Sorry, @Sam Seder, but you are dead wrong on this one. Russia started an illegal, offensive war against a non-threatening country. How is this even debatable in the slightest? Why are most lefties turning into bra!ndead, empty shells of themselves all of a sudden whenever it comes to this issue? What is happening to people like Kyle Kulinsky (the guy from Secular Talk) and Noam Chomsky (arguably one of the most important and wise minds from the last (20th) Century - no offense - and certainly the most valuable one when it comes to progress in linguistics and theoretical computer science)?
Sam never "debated" the thing you are saying "How is this even debatable in the slightest?", even in this call he repeatedly says russia are at fault here. 100% ful stop Russia are the bad guys.
How does Russia invading someone mean it's not debatable to fight a proxy war with Russia? Nothing is "happening to" people who disagree with you, you likely just got swept up in the hysteria that happens whenever there is a war.
It's because they're American. Americans have an anti-imperialist/anti-interventionist streak which has consolidated post-Iraq War. It's a sort of trauma response, politically speaking - a guttural response to a cascade of failed, unjust or immoral interventions over the last few decades. They've been poisoned into believing that America should stay out of anything geopolitics-wise, and that anything America supports is, by default, suspicious at best.
@@andreashofmann4556 "Sam never "debated" the thing you are saying": Learn what words mean, before you write. You used debated as a verb, I used it as an adjective ("debatable"). Those two are not the same and neither is their meaning. Try again once you understand how words work.
it's called not sending unlimited $$$ for a WAR that drives INFLATION that effects people like YOU and ME
Cheers Raygun!!
I’m a pacifist and TMR is great on many issues, but on foreign policy they are often horrible, with no understanding whatsoever of how to deal with dictators.
Crimea probably will never be returned to Ukraine, but they will not and should not ever admit to that. Nor, should they be asked to recognize it as Russian, even if they agree to peace with Russian control.
I wish they interviewed Ukrainians, historians or war reporters from Ukraine. Sam or the others don't seem knowledgeable about Eastern Europe or Ukraine. They don't seem to understand that NATO is a defense alliance, not an invading force and NATO is not the US.
@@hatoju NATO is a tool of US imperialism. Yeah let’s all take it from Ukrainian nationalists and not question them at all… insane liberal bullshit
@@hatoju NATO is a defensive alliance the same way the mob is.
@@cameronpatterson130 I’m honestly amazed at the brain dead comments I’ve read here. The naivety surrounding the intentions of NATO and the US is staggering. A defensive alliance my ass.
@@LeeH688 it’s not naivety
There's a weird convergence on right and left that we should let Russia just conquer a free country. It's bizarre and wrong. If there is a righteous fight, it is this one
I would say """left""", but the brainrot of as vaush calls it "American diabolism" inflicted many genuine leftists content creators.
Luckily some are still sane, examples:
Matt binder ;)
Adam something
Vaush
And the two best examples, well educated and im sure capable of beating every tired arguments that putin apologist, or useful idiots for his land grab tactic, are making:
Dylan burns
Lonerbox.
Strawman.
It's not about "conquering a free country" it's about whether Ukraine gets to be a US puppet state or a Russian puppet state. How is that a "righteous fight"?
@@danielshepard2315
Nope.
Its about russia going for ukraine's Oil and gas.
2012 giant gas wells are discovered near crimea in the Black sea.
Russian puppet yanukovich tries to transform ukraine into chechnya or belarus, despite campaign promises that he will further seek EU membership. He ends negotiations with the EU. Teases a deal with Putin. Protests start. He tries to squash them with brutal force. He tries to pass dictatorial laws. He fails.
Wagner group and other little green men enter crimea.
2014 russia annexes crimea without much resistence and bloodshed.
Does that land grab satisfy putin's apetite?
Nope.
Moment he is succesfful in crimea is the moment he Goes for donbass.
Thats it.
All rest is smoke and mirrors.
Now, sure, USA does not tolerate void and tries to corrupt everything everywhere.
But.
There is a difference between joining nato and some trade deals and being a freaking open air museum entirely dependant on russia like belarus.
@@danielshepard2315 The Ukrainians don't want to be a Russian puppet
The majority report is dead wrong on the Ukrainian issue you cannot know what the end game is with a cheating player who won't get out of your house
This is such a meaningless statement...think about what you are saying "Russia bad so it doesn't matter what the US does, we don't need to think about the consequences of our actions" the same logic to justify every disastrous proxy war with Russia in US history.
@@danielshepard2315
You failed reading comprehension didn't you?
I'm afraid Sam will eventually learn that he was on the wrong site of history on this.
@Nicholas Time
Yeah. Cause arming a victim of russian imperialism is imperialism. Why not.
@Nicholas Time "Russian imperialism is good, because America bad." - some bigbrain named Nicholas.
@@ugaboj Russia, the United States, Britain, the current Ukrainian government amongst others are all response for the current events in Ukraine BigBrain Uga.
@Ethan Danan That is a profound argument.
@@psycholify Do you know anything about the events in Ukraine?
All the Majority Report is deeply wrong on this. This ends when Russian troops are done with their aggression and leave all of Ukraine, or the Ukrainian people themselves decide to come to a negotiated peace without US strong arming them into it. Not a moment before. Nuclear blackmail must be made to backfire or it can only escalate.
The caller understated the case to be diplomatic. The MR crew are not just wrong but cruel and immoral on this.
Very well said
When friends asks for help wr help them. Ukraine asked. It's not Vietnam who didn't want meddling.
Exactly. thank you. Getting involved is okay, when the threatened country *asks for it*.
@@pro-choicemom pay us back with what??? They will all be dead
@@pro-choicemom Exactly, this is how many allies are formed. You help a country during a war, they'll back us up as well for things. I am very disappointed with the segment of the left that just wants to sit back and do nothing.
South Vietnam did want meddling, and ARVN did fight quite fiercely (1.4 million casualties) for at least a decade. Ultimately, the NVA and its allies fought more fiercely and more effectively.
Ukraine is not some equal partner to the US, Ukraine is a US client state propped up by billions of dollars of US investment and military spending since 2014.
Backing Ukraine here is 100% the anti-imperialist position here. I usually agree with Sam, but between this and the previous bit on Ukraine the Majority Report is completely wrong here (aside from Binder).
hard for me to imagine the mental gymnastics needed to justify anti-imperialism via funding an army with nazi symbols on their flag
@@lyrebird712 wolfsangel and white sun and trident. all 3 are well known neo nazi symbols, please stop watching cnn.
@@amphitheatre so a flag used by a nation can't use symbols adopted by NEO Nazi groups? I bet you aren't a Pepe the frog fan either, right? Always-online folks like you should probably watch MORE CNN at this point to get more normie perspective.
Turning Ukraine into a militarized US satellite state is not "anti imperialist" do you think funding the Mujahedeen to fight Russia in Afghanistan was "anti imperialist"?
@@danielshepard2315 are you aware of how drastically different those two cases are? And I'm not seeing Ukraine being turned into a "satellite state", what are you talking about? Are you one of those weird foreign policy isolationists that thinks if a single dollar leaves the country it is imperialism?
We need unequivocal support for Ukraine
Good caller
Bad caller, worse comments. Too many uninformed people who are way to emotional and not being objective or evening listening to what Sam said. I have no doubt every commenter in here will be turning on Ukraine shortly. Calling them facists, racists and bigots soon. Going to be hilarious to see.
The further the video, the more Sam is drowning.
Sam did a good job at the end changing the subject. The caller wasn't just talking about debating conditions of US aid. He was talking about the show's broader rhetoric, which included Emma's assumption that ending the Ukrainian war effort would constitute "peace," Lockheed Martin loves the war, and Lech claiming that arming Ukraine prolongs the conflict.
Matt was real quiet during this call.
In a sense Lech is both right and wrong. Like he’s right in that if Ukraine had just been left to be slaughtered by Russia with no aid or support then this would have been over by March or April. But seeing as it went down the way it did, it will now be over faster if the U.S and E.U and NATO see it through to the end, I.E pushing Russia back to pre 2014 borders and securing those. Only a fool goes further and attacks Russia. If aid & support is dropped then this is will drag on with more people coming to harm. It’s easy to say there are mass graves in other countries that get less attention but, we agree that’s wrong right? Getting it wrong previously or elsewhere doesn’t make it ok for it to happen to Ukrainians too right?
@@tacticalgrace6456 agreed. If the US hadn't armed Ukraine, Ukraine's defensive war effort would have been replaced by a civil war pitting Ukrainians against the Russian occupiers, whose brutality would quickly escalate. It's pretty sickening to refer to such a state of affairs, as Vigeland does, as "peace."
@@jonathansurovell3516 quick correction: withouth NATO support it still wouldn't be a civil war.
You mean guerilla war.
@@jonathansurovell3516 : Depends on who is doing the referring.
If Ukraine didn't get our money and weapons, then the whole U.S. of America would have been spared hearing about the war effort it's not directly involved in. That's peace from a United States citizen's perspective.
What about Ethiopia? Nobody talks about Ethiopia... where's the demand for aid on behalf of starving Ethiopians caught in the midst of a war? And starving and unhoused Americans, too, while we're at it. Its war everywhere.
Sam lost this debate and rightfully so. There's no room to equivocate about finances when human rights are on the line and its a bit of a self report for Sam and the gang to double down on the problems of cost.
Lives are on the line when you chose to escalate a conflict with a nuclear powered state
your argument just shows how much you bias or uninformed.
Americans lives are on the lines when you spend money on Ukrainians instead of Americans. Everything has an opportunity cost. You can 100% place a resource amount worth on human lives.
@@danielshepard2315 As opposed to what? Appease them? How many countries should we let them take?
@@Jorge-np3tq how many countries have america invaded and overthrown a hell a lot more than russia has done.
This comment section makes me proud to be an American!!! You can't just allow Putin to grab random pieces of countries every few years when he feels like it. So I don't think forcing the Ukrainians into a horrible bargaining position by telling them to cut a deal or we'll quit giving them weapons is the proper position. Sam looked bad here & struggled mightly to counter his based argument. My real complaint is that the Europeans aren't funding this war equally with us
hear, hear!!
So who should stop the US from invading countries every year when they feel like it? You are just going to let the US get away with invading Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen etc. ? Who is going to stop the US? Should Russia and China start surrounding the US with military bases and arming/training troops to fight US forces?
You are prolonging the and adding petrol to the fire and making more realistic that a nuclear war inevitable
@@greenhammer3263 cowardly and illogical.
Yo, if you don't want america to pay for everything maybe don't appropriate all the money?
Because support in this situation or not - people in europe have turned towards militarism in a way they have not for 30 years becasue of this - and this will benefit more unjust, illegitimate wars than the occasional just one the west finds itself in every, what, 80 years?
Ofc this one is legitimate and the support is out of questin imho - but my god, there should at least be room to seriously think about if we can't support them in a way that is _better_ , leans more to benefiting this opportunity for us emancipatory people instead of all the others for, yk, not-us.
9 time out of 10 I agree with the Majority Report, but not on this. After we make a commitment, we have to follow through with it, otherwise our word means nothing.
Yeah, we tried the other way with Trump, and the world literally hated us.
Can you say what it is you think you heard from this video lol. Sounds like everyone turned if off after they heard Sam say "I just want to know what the end means. And where that would be, if any" - Can you tell me where he said he would break the commitment ?
The problem is we have disingenuous actors (like a certain Gabbard) that calls any such foreign policy "pro war", and for some on the Left that consider themselves as anti war, they have to go through the minutia of explaining the nuance of their commitment to a group that sees "nuance" as code for "excuse".
For example, Kulinski recently tried to thread that needle when Biden had brought up our commitment to defend Taiwan against China. Some would definitely say the same thing about his take as they're saying about Seder's take here with regards to Ukraine. (Speaking of, Kulinski's response to the discussion of Putin's nuclear threat did have some questionable moments.) The only difference is that (as triknives pointed out) Sam's question is about what the goal is, not whether or not we should rethink our commitment because of WWIII concerns.
The real central issue of this debate isn't about Ukraine. It's the fact that the supporting staff on Sam's show don't examine their opinions to the extent Sam does before presenting them on the show. It's a real shame, and in my opinion it does damage the brand of this show.
OMG, yes. Love Sam. The rest act like adolescents and are extremely difficult to watch. It's getting worse, not better. Emma is so wrong and smug on a variety of issues. This is just another example.
@@Chriscraft50 what other takes do you disagree with Emma on? I feel like they have backed off this a bit.
@purts2 the citi bike Karen, the central park Karen or the Kyle Rittenhouse situation. She's very closed minded on race issues because her mind is made up before all the facts are in. I used to like Emma. Her racial rhetoric is extremely cringe. She supports "trendy-trans" activists while being blind to the harm they caused to actual trans people.
She's way too reactionary for my taste.
@@Chriscraft50 idk man, if youre defending kyle rittenhouse, that might be a you problem
@purts2 you see what you did ? You pulled an Emma. Your mind is already made up and you obviously didn't watch the trial, or you don't know the law. I don't defend Rittenhouse. I do defend the law of our country. If you don't agree with the law, then change it. What law did Rittenhouse break? I talk with many progressives and watched many debates on this. I see emotional reactions and very little legal arguments. So tell me, how is it I'm the problem?
Help Ukraine until Putin is defeated, period.
The struggle of Ukraine is the very definition of a just war.
That's what Ro Khanna kept saying during one of his recent appearances on Bad Faith podcast. The justification was that "Putin is killing women and children," as if we hadn't been doing precisely the same thing in Afghanistan for twenty years. As if we aren't doing it right now in Yemen, and _still_ in Afghanistan. The hypocrisy is unbearable.
if you really believe that you would have said the same thing about germany in 1939
That doesn't matter. The Mujahedeen were fighting a "just war" against the USSR, how did supporting them work out?
@@danielshepard2315
And the Russian propagandist continues with false equivalence.
@@danielshepard2315 How did supporting Winston Churchill "work out"? What would have happend if Winston Churchill did not get support?
Completely agree with the caller. Expected more from Sam.
This war started in 2014, not 2022. It only escalated when ‘Someone’ decided to extend Russia’s borders to equal the old Soviet Union.
This was a moral point before, but now with inflation, it appears some people are leaving their morals at the door.
There are no moral points among nations. Nationalism is a presentation of imperialism.
Russia did not extend it's borders to equal the old soviet union, not even today are they trying to do that, because they aren't even capable of doing that. And it's weird that you leave out how the US sent John McCain and other politicians to Ukraine in 2014 to support a coup of the elected government, then propped up the new government with billions of dollars of investment, as if that's just a normal "hands off" thing to do
And a certain Someone else expanding NATO and taking up the mantle of European colonialism after WW2.
@@buzzhawk i dont remember nato boots in finland to force them to join. They joined because of russia
@@buzzhawk How is NATO colonialism? Members join voluntarily. Stop getting your takes from lefty Twitter. You can do better.
I started to understand what Sam was trying to say towards the end of the conversation when he brought up previous interventions that started off just and easy to support but that then went sideways.
I think he's trying to say that US citizens *should be in a good position to hold the government's feet to the fire if things go sideways so their influence will actually be able to halt those wars.* And the only way to do that is to remain vigilant, regularly assess their involvement, and that everything being paid for should be explained and justified. Even just regularly asking politicians "When do you think this will be over?"
It makes sense but it's hard to articulate, and hard to do as well. Sam temporarily sounded like Jordan Peterson for a while ("We need to be VERY PARTICULAR" [followed by vagueness]) which shows he hadn't yet had a good conversation about this. *He should be more effective at communicating this now.*
Yes this is the correct take. Sam and Co have had all year to catch up with the evolving situation but they’ve barely covered it and even when they did it was almost always downplayed or cast in a suspicious light. They need to get their heads around this conflict and find a good leftist position they can defend because this ain’t it.
You got it!
@@Clefargle Emma usually shuts down the conversation with an appropriate what-about-ism on USA's mis-adventures or support of authoritarian regimes. I would like to tell all Leftists, yes, the USA has done some bad shit with ill-intent. We are not obligated to take Russia's side (or use Putin talking points) just because we dislike USA policy. We have a moral compass and can see that this is a battle of good vs evil, and USA is- for a change- a good guy in this.
It is the republicans and fascist extremists that support Putin and want to stop helping Ukraine. There should be moral clarity on this issue.
@@Clefargle The left hs serious issues to have a stand when it comes to wars. The left in general believe that the natural state is peace, but that has never been true in human history, and isn't in many animal kingdoms either. The left is opposed to nato. but instead of coming up with ways to improve nato, or an alternative, they just think nato can be abandoned and peace will follow (something the baltic states, when occupied by Russia, would not agree with). (the whole nato expansion is an aggression toward russia rhetoric comes staight out of Russian propaganda, that the left used to be very open to, with the real goals being that Russia would like to be able to expand it's territories and Nato would get in the way, Russian state was always safe with its nukes)
The left thinks that money that goes in to wars, could just be spent in the US to help people. But, the world stability, is crucial for the US society to survive, if the world turns in to chaos, the US will not be able to self-stustain an economy capable of taking care of anywhere near all it citizens. If the left wants to prepare for the future, they, would start a people movement, towards a different way of life. But most people don't want to go back to a farming society, where the working day surpasses 12 hours, where it is all about providing for themselves and others. De-industrialization would be completely necessary, to build completely self-sufficent societies. And that comes at great cost to our living standard, way beyond not having time to spend on a thing like the internet.
Whatever democratic states the left finds a place in, needs to be able to enter conflicts, outside it's territories, or there is no chance that state will survive, and then there would be no left wing democratic state anyhow.
@@Clefargle well to be fair Voosh and other "pseudo-Leftists" are showing the devastation as if its war pr0n. Babushkas don't feel "joy" in the continuing war.
Ronald: So Ukraine.
Sam: Yemen
Yeah, I didn’t get the parallel there
Yeah, that's how discussions work. Nothing exists in a vaccuum. Our actions in Yemen are relevant to how we might act in Ukraine
@@justr6982 But Russia is the aggressor here, and Ukraine wants to defend itself. Bringing up other bad shit that the US hegemony does doesn't change that
@@Mrraerae Past action is indicative of future action.
@@noble7461 So helping Ukraine is bad because the US hegemony has done other things, which are actually bad? This is a bafflingly stupid argument. I don't want the Ukrainians to get thrown under the bus under some ridiculous notion of avoiding being hypocritical. They are being invaded, for fucks sake. They need help. If you say killing is wrong, and then you kill someone, and then you help someone else avoid being killed, is you helping the person suddenly a bad action because you're being hypocritical? No. That's retarded.
Based caller; it's so weird that TMR is so wishy-washy on this issue. Yes it's good to have clear goals and an exit strategy but surely we can all agree that the US giving aid to Ukraine to beat Russia's invasion is a good thing to do!
I know for sure that Matt Binder agrees with the caller here. He and Vaush discussed this weird tendency of leftists to oppose US foreign policy, even when it's anti-imperialist.
It’s Matt and Emma mostly pushing the narrative this way. I agree with them on 99% of other topics but they clearly are not approaching this objectively
All I see in the comment thread is people simply saying Sam gave nothing, while not offering any real rebuttal against his concerns of seemingly endless western financial aid. It’s like all you guys have is a vaush tape stuck on repeat in your head, subjectively disagreeing based off of feelings that cannot be completely flushed out. I don’t claim to have it figured out, but I’m not naive enough to go along with the majority of the left that has completely been blindsided this whole year. To paint this as simple as red vs blue / good and evil is not objective. Ringing the nazi bell to stir up national fervor, whether for one’s state or for another is not in the interest of the left. It never will be. Since when do we decide to go down these side roads and get distracted from the actua” concerns of the left? Concerns which once was and should remain to be opposition of war and the toxic outcomes of state power in the hands of oligarchs (& their militaries) and the conflicts that inevitably arise because of it.
No we can't agree on this, do you think arming the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan to beat a Russian invasion was a good thing to do? How do you think that worked out?
@@caad5258 Buddy, the largest military empire in human history turning Ukraine into a militarized sattelite state to weaken Russia is not "anti imperialist"
Maybe the caller hijacked the show, but this was a great conversation and worth having. Caller is right, IMHO.
I agree with the caller on this one, to many leftists think first of how the USA will profit and how it's meddling in this conflict, before how to help human lives in Ukraine.
They are correct to do this to the US cause of it's history, but it is possible for US intersets to be alligned with a good cause, the military indusrial complexe is profiting but as the caller said its like that all the time (I would nationalize them).
The only person who can end this war is Putin cause he started it, escalated it at every occasion and is toying with nukes now.
Some leftists are blinded so much by their rightful distrust of USA geopolitics, but they are still blinded and take agency away from Ukraine who WANTS OUR AID CAUSE THEY ARE BEING INVADED.
Matt Binder seems to be the only sensible view (edit) *on the majority report* on the Russia/Ukraine conflict (btw not a USA/Russia proxy war like others may think).
America bad is not a useful or good ideology. Even Chomsky has these brainworms, sad(he old af tho).
It is sad to see Chomsky's arguments these days, he has turned in to a useful id**t for China in particular. The old Chomsky put in a modern context, with access to useful information from around the world, would probably not had such bad takes. But todays Chomsky is colored by his beliefs in the past, and they don't hold up.
THe left though is always bad with takes on wars, because they naively believe in a state of humanity with no risk of wars, although that goes against everything we know of human nature, and even animal kingdoms. Wars can only be avoided with scare tactics. Otherwise war is unavoidable and then one has to be able to see which side is right or least wrong, and take that side, until there is a situation, where one can actually address the wrongs that still exist on that side, after it has won, or avoided annihilation.
America is bad, so is Russia. America intervening in Ukraine is what caused this conflict in the first place and is making the situation worse.
@@TheJonHolstein Chomsky always had this anti western ideology when it comes to international affairs. He downplayed/denied the Cambodian genocide and denies the Bosnian genocide to this day!
His access to information isn't the difference, "our" access to check his claims in real time is. One doesn't >repeatedly< stumble into genocide denial/downplaying, while calling the west "terrorists", by accident.
I agree a 100 percent with you brother. Too many leftists are so skeptical of US intentions that they don’t even consider the idea that the United States might be correct in giving Ukraine weapons. Yeah a healthy distrust of US policy is one thing it’s a complete other thing to allow Russia to just roll into Ukraine. Especially with Putin spouting blood and soil ideology. I can’t understand “leftists” who side with Russia especially considering Russias track record on LGBTQ rights, freedom of speech, freedom to assemble etc. America might have our problems but the Russian government and their treatment of their citizens is a fucking dumpster fire. Drafting 50 year old men and locking up people for saying in public they are anti war is just something leftists shouldn’t support but yet there is plenty of “leftists” who support Russia and I honestly just feel it’s to be contrarian. They just wanna have a opinion different from everybody else no matter how wrong that opinion is. Calling Ukraine Nazis even though they elected a Jewish president with a massive majority and most of the top echelons of the government are Jewish and it’s just insane how these “leftists” act. It’s only American leftists because European leftists know what russia is capable of and they are afraid of who russia will attack next. European leftists know they have to stop russia they don’t have the luxury of being pro russia
Say what you want about the Soviet Union but they abide by international agreements whether it’s with the Nazis in the Molotov Ribbentrop pact or any US-Soviet arms reduction treaties. Fascists have no qualms about breaking treaty obligations constantly and whenever it fits their needs. You cannot trust fascist governments like Russia and Putin to abide by any agreement for peace in Ukraine. They agreed in the 90’s to respect Ukrainian sovereignty and they broke both Minsk agreements which were pathways to peace made with the Ukrainian government. Fascist governments cannot be trusted ever full stop. You can’t trust them because they will just find some justification to break the agreement usually claiming victimization. Russia will claim Ukraine attacked them or make some shit up that American and only American “leftists” and fascists will repeat and make Russia look like the good guy. Russia needs to be humbled they’ve attacked multiple neighbors since the 90’s and this is just the most brazen and bold act of aggression they have showed. They need to be humbled and I’m glad Ukraine is doing it. I’m glad they are protecting their rights, land and freedom. I’m proud of that country and what they are doing and America should do whatever it has to short of boots on the ground (at this point) to protect them and Ukrainian sovereignty.
The caller is absolutely right.
If you are pro democracy, defend democracy. It it is not war mongering to ensure the sovereignty of a democratic republic. This isn't about oil, its about ensuring the world is ruled by its people and not a petro state dictator. Being anti war for its own sake is too reflexive as opposed to principled. There are times when a fight is necessary because its worth fight.
You go fight for Ukropistan.
@@buzzhawk LOL! oh okay Troll clearly you need attention - there you got some - you're welcome!! You poor thing. Now go get some actual HUMAN love . Now THAT will actually make you feel better poor thing
The anti-war position is not “for its own sake”. It is to reduce the significant potential for nuclear war.
I do not wish to gratuitously insult, but your comment reads as American movie-like protagonist rhetoric. This is not the attitude a situation of such gravity requires.
@@poissonrouge8937 Life isn't a movie and human progress has flourished more under democratic republics than any other form of government. You wouldn't even be commenting to me now without the fruits of democracy and the self rule and prosperity it brings. I didn't propose a solution only that there a values and societies worth fighting for. There are good causes and good ideas. It's not from a movie, it's from our human history.
Also the money we are sending is mostly weapons that were already made. The rest of the money goes towards humanitarian aid.
Weapon systems that are already 10 to 15 years old at that
@Bully D Williams......”Humanitarian Aid” 😂
@@anderseckstrand7033 do you dispute that humanitarian aid is being provided by NATO countries?
@@anderseckstrand7033 you don't think food and medical supplies are being sent?
totally agree , and we literally made those weapons to fight Russia , so thank god they are being used for their original purpose.
Rare to see Sam get so calmly and thoroughly owned. That was a Great caller. He should be invited back.
Why is Sam so confused about parameters and the end game? The parameters are set every time an appropriation is made and conditions are imposed. No nukes. No long range offensive weapons. No systemic war crimes on the part of Ukraine.
The end game: Containment of Russia and an independent Ukraine with pre- 2014 borders, a budding alliance with NATO and a shot at EU membership.
Pretty sure it's Ronald Raygun, Sam respects him, he's a friend of the show. When he calls in to have an actual serious conversation, Sam is going to hear him out...
MR's take on Ukraine has been pretty awful. The left is really dropping the ball on this.
It’s not a left vs right thing . There are plenty of Republicans that don’t want to support the War on Ukraine 🇺🇦.
Putin planned this because the world is beaten down after COVID
@@Tamar-sz8ox Yeah, but I don't care about the right's take on this, but the right is basically a collection of bad takes. I care when people on my side of the ideological spectrum are trying to Chamberlain their way into a foreign policy disaster.
Exactly.
Even Ukrainian leftist were left hanging. The so called international solidarity hasn't materialized in a time of history where it absolutely should have.
@@Vulcano7965 wow . You’re right
The left support corporatism and fascism now. Just wave a rainbow flag and they support it.
Caller did well.
He argued a terrible point but he did it convincingly.
@@GQ2593 Uh huh, sure buddy.
Raygun is right on this one. Seems like Sam isn't really responding to the root of the criticism.
Have you thought, too, the symbolism between Ukraine possibly losing their democracy, and the US losing its democracy at this time?
I feel this is powerful right now for Ukrainians and for Americans.
Ukraine banished all left-leaning parties, that is the opposite of democracy.
Definitely, if MAGA republicans reach power again in 2024 they'll definitely not leave peacefully on the following elections. Imagine having Putin getting along with Trump, due to their dictator-mentality and eventually leading to the expansion of fascism all over the world.
Caller is 100% right here. Especially in that he has also thought about the repercussions of engagement before coming to his conclusion
Rare Sam Seder L
Why can't we support democratic countries fight off autocracies? Autocracies make the world more dangerous for all of us.
The US is not the only country paying for the war. The entire Europe won't have enough heat or electricity the coming winter. Most public sector workplaces have turned the heat down throughout the countries. Plus the amounts of weaponry and training and so forth from Europe. There's Ukrainians receiving training in European countries.
There's also the issue that Putin has been absent from at least 2 negotiations.
You sound like you enjoy the lack of electricity and heat in Europe. Typical callous RepubliKKKan Axis Sally.
What negotiation? The west never wanted to have any negotiation ever they keep doing whatever they want and think they can get away with
"The entire Europe won't have enough heat or electricity the coming winter."
This is the only decent argument I can see against providing support to Ukraine. MR bitching about Western imperialism ain't it.
That's not correct. I'm in Europe and i can tell you that's not correct.
The entire Europe is not struggling to have heat or electricity for the winter ...
There is only 1 end game for Ukraine. It has not changed since the beginning.
Defend. Up and to border. No further. As Sam said @18:02
And whether or not Ukraine has an end game makes no difference whatsoever to anyone, as long as the US makes clear exactly the conditions and extent of our support. Not 1 nanometer past the border.
Are we so cruel to pledge support and only half-ass it? Are we so tamed to these hostilities that we make promises but not keep them?
Poland was burned and gutted on that very same ideology. It gave carte-blanche for continued atrocities. A murderer was loosed upon Europe and ran unfettered. And because of the inability and lack of principled integirity, only a bargain with another murderer would bring the Austrian paper-hanger to heel.
What loathesome cowardice.
I know Sam has heard this but it bears repeating.
_First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-because I was not a socialist._
_Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-because I was not a trade unionist._
_Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-because I was not a Jew._
_Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak for me._
*-Martin Niemöller*
Raygun pointed out things that we all need to be aware of.
Our media has, surprise surprise, failed to show us this.
The media is the reason that any American cares about what’s happening in Ukraine in the first place. How many Americans know about the war in Yemen or the Tigray war?
This caller is absolutely correct. Matt binder was the only one with a decent take on this.
Yup. Everyone else was being a useful idiot for PUTIN of all people
Yup
I don't think you can compare our helping Ukraine to other wars we got involved in for questionable reasons. The fact that we made mistakes in the past, has nothing to do with being on the right side by helping fund the Ukrainians fight. Fighting fascists is the right thing to do.
It's not like letting Qaddafi level a city to the ground would result in a better country. It is entirely possible he would have been killed anyway and the country would be even more of a shell of itself. In Syria, Assad won and is still alive and it is still a kill zone to this day.
"I don't think the republicans will tap the breaks on this" 😂 man this aged poorly!
in fact they're completely against it now lmfao
@@fatshibaballs Yeah, so much that they're willing to and about to throw their speaker under the bus over it!!!
To answer Sam's question if what the endgame is:
It ends when Russia leaves.
Ukraine, like every other country on earth, has a border decided by the international community. If Russia arbitrarily decides parts of Ukraine is now parts of Russia, it means nothing. When Russia decides to pull out of an unjustified war, the conflict ends.
I find this strange interest in holding water for Russia's weird fascist territorial claims so weird. If the US annexed part of Mexico out of nowhere based on the notion that it is a politically stronger entity, I doubt we would be arguing how to deescalate the situation; we would be demanding that the US pulls out of the conflict entirely.
Why are we handling this situation as if Russia is a child incapable of reason?
Can you imagine MR arguing that Mexico needs to consider negotiations, i.e. giving up a quarter of Mexico to the US because the US might use nukes?
Me neither…
and sam's question is what is our response if russia refuses to leave? and what if they drop nukes? how far is the US willing to go to reach your endgame? i think its an important conversation in light of the mass of other proxy wars the US has been involved in.
Fighting a proxy war with Russia will not cause them to leave Ukraine, or stop destroying Ukraine. A negotiated settlement to end the war, will.
@@mosesconspiracy If Russia refuses to leave and the Ukrainians are willing to keep fighting, then the US and other should keep funding the Ukrainians until the cost for Russia is so high that they have to leave.
The nuke discussion can't be had, until it happens. US don't know what it will do, and having open conversations, that might make it seem like the US is not willing to use Nukes in that case, does not help deter Russia from using them.
The idea of proxy-wars is misguided. IN this war, as well as in Syria, and other so called proxy wars, each party can leave when they feel like it, meaning that they aren't invested in it, like they would be in an acutal war, thus it can't be a proxy war either. The only other way a war can be a proxy war, if two powers test their weapon systems, and the battle is won, only by having superior technology, and because of that become a power demonstration that puts one power on top, then they would not have to test those weapons in a fight they are actually involved.
Military strategist in the US, studying this was will realize that Russia has a lot of military resources that they have not put in to this war yet, meaning that they are at this point not willing to sacrifice everything they got, and thus it can't really be used as a way to deplete the resources of the Russian army, to an extent where Russia would be down for count, and if the were, they would still have the nukes protecting them... so no matter if Hillary Clinton makes statements, suggesting that she thinks this i a way to defeat russia as in the russian state, not on this particular battlefield, military strategist don't.
This is a war to save Ukraine, and in doing so, hopefully deter Russia from other attempt of occupying other states.
If Russia is successfull, than we have a new world order, where we can expect a lot of chaos, and if Russia and china starts acting out, in the ways they can, because they feel US does not have an interest in world stability, it will destroy the global economy, and with that shring the US economy by billions and billions, perhaps even trillions, and then any hope for medicare for all, social security, and other social safetynets will be gone. The Russian economy is already tanked. And China will be able to mostly handle such a situation, because their population lives under a different systemt, with differnt living conditions, and china would have access to the resources of a lot of other nations, that they have already built som political control over, and if free to act on it, will turn to puppet states under Chinese control. Many countries in africa will find themselves under control of China or otehr powers, and their economic growth will be halted, but having such large part of thei rpopulation already living in poverty wil help soften the blow.
@@mosesconspiracy How is this a proxy war? Who is the proxy for Russia in this fight?