What's better? NCA VS LFP lithium batteries (even Elon agrees with me!)
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- What's better? NCA VS LFP lithium batteries (even Elon agrees with me!)
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#NCA #LFP #bladebattery #Ev #elonmusk
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Sam, agreed. As range anxiety continues to ease, LFP batteries will become mainstream. As long as you can place enough kwh in the floorpan of the vehicle to meet range needs, the manufacturer is good. 2/3 of the cars in the future will be LFP, stationary storage will be Sodium.
I like how Sandy Munro explained: LFP is like 87 octane gas, whereas NCA is like 95 octane. Another advantage of NCA is that it can discharge fast when needed, for example for quick acceleration or when power is needed for awd. I like that the NCA model 3 lr can accelerate fast, is awd and has longer range cause i travel on long trips. And you CAN charge NCA to 100%, Elon said himself you can, it's just don't do it when you don't need to, like in city driving
I own a 2022 M3LR and home charge to 80% every 2 to 3 days. I only drive 50 to 60 kms/day. Here in Canada price of the M3LR went up by 10k +tax and price of charger, since I ordered mine in February 2022. My sister absolutely loves my Tesla and is planning on the M3 SR which currently sells at $61,980 CND. The MSLR is $74,990 CND! The choice is obvious for her..she just needs to invest in good all season or winter tires as we get all kinds of weather here in Canada, British Columbia. Congratulations to everyone who got their M3SR and M3LR! Prices will continue to creep up....
I waited for the LFP Battery to appear in the Tesla M3 before I purchased mine. The science says YES over NCM purely for two things… 100% charging and minimal degradation. I believe the LFP Teslas will be better to sell as a second hand car as buyers will see them as a better used investment.
How were you able to choose?? I just purchased a M3 RWD in USA (1-24-23) but no were in the App buying process gave me the option to choose, I take deliver on Feb 4 as far as I understand my car has NCA batteries
@@TheMELTDOWN911 Same case here. I ordered Model 3 RWD and going to take delivery on 13th of this month. Were you able to find out if you car has LFP or NAC ?
In the long run, time will degrade all of them equally. I live in cold mountains and cold regen on ncm are welcomed. Not to mention that I like fast driving too.
Sam, whatever's cheap and safe and efficient!
I go with that!
More bums on seats ...not on 🔥 pls!
Thank you
Great video! Thanks for all your dedication! One thing I like you to clarify when comparing energy densities between NCM and LFP is the difference between pack level and cell level. I think pack level comparison is more relevant for EV owners. At the pack level, BYD's Blade LFP battery system has energy density of 140 wh/kg versus Tesla's NCM battery system of 160 wh/kg. So the ratio is 0.875 which is almost 90%. Since ideally you should only charge the NCM pack to no more than 90% full, then this puts the BYD Blade battery's pack level energy density on par with the NCM battery system. This is why BYD Blade battery is so attractive .
Thank you.
Tesla vehicles made in the US have NCA batteries, not NMC. US customers who are waiting for a Model 3 SR+ that are being offered a Chineses made Model 3 SR+ with LFP batteries.
I agree with you. One question arises, what will be the chemistry of the new 4680 from Tesla?
LFP
Charge & use 0 to 100%
Last much longer.
Low fire hazard.
Costs less.
I think the other factor is charging speed?
@@stevensonholt234 yes, very slow when pack is cold
@@jamespatrick5930 Thank you for the info!
How can range differ only 10% when density is 50% less?
BIG fire hazard and BIG explosion hazard. But if you do not care about house explosion, OK.
Is there a difference between lip and MCN when it comes to the low end if capacity? How do they behave at 10 or 5% charge? What about the charging speeds and maximum power output?
Hey. I just want to appreciate your analysis and explanation for us EV fans. Good job.
Hey, thank you!!!!
NCA battery charged to 80% gives an EPA range of 210 mi. vs LFP 100% range of 253 mi. LFP are less likely to have a thermal event and less degradation. Living in CA where cold temperatures are milder; given the choice I would likely choose the LFP.
I charge to 90% and get 312 mile range
Mod3SR+ with LFP, I charge the battery to 100% any time I can get to the charger. I start to charge when it get to 35-40% at 6KwH charger. not worry about heat the battery.
Jut ordered a 16.6kW/h BYD home battery with LiFePO4 chemistry. Well suited to stationary
storage
How much dit it cost ?
Are you happy with it ?
Very happy with it. I am averaging 98% self sufficiency and it has helped us out on a few occasions where there has been power outages. We have our lighting circuits and 1 power circuit wired for use during power outages. I cant remember exact cost but was in the region of $1000 per kW/h installed now but speak to a local installer to get a better idea. @@pauld3327
Battery supply problem solved? Turns to a glut? Great for energy storage applications?
How about environmental impact and CO2 ind production? Is LFP better than NCA?
Co2 is not a problem, we are at a low point in history at the moment and it would become dangerous for human life going for the levels proposed. Greenest period on the planet, the Triassic period, c02 level was over 2000ppm, 5 times of what it is now.
Couldn’t explain better 👏🏿
Does it bother you that the Aptera you and I have on order will have a NMC battery?
So the new 2022 T3 RWD model advertises 0-100 in 6s+ while the 2021 LFP SR+ model advertises 0-100 in 5.6s, if they're both LFP batteries, why the speed difference?
I have a Chevy Bolt and when the temperature gets below -20 Celsius, the range goes from 240 miles to < 100 miles. We can see temperatures below -30 degrees Celsius (rare). So this is a real problem for people living in the North of the US and Canadians.
Well it appears the BYD Blade battery is no better in the cold as many owners of the BYD Han with a claimed 605km NEDC yet in China's winter achieved an embarrassing 246km! Also the Chinese made Tesla Model 3 uses LFP and one very happy..NOT owner was getting just 200km yet it had an official range of 468 NEDC
At 3:22 it looks like a Honda but it sounds like you said Hyundai. What battery chemistry is Honda using?
How can the energy density of LFP batteries only be half of NCA considering a fully charged base model 3 will get almost identical miles regardless of which battery type they use: 263 miles (NCA) vs. 253 miles (LFP).
So, if the LFP were only 1/2 the energy density of the currently used NCA wouldn't the car need almost twice the number of batteries?
The long range model 3 pack is full of NCA but the battery case is half empty on the SR+, but full on the SR+ with LPF. There is no LPF option on the long range.
@@brunohill3229 well that would explain it.
BYD blade battery is like looking at the desert menu, everyone else is just a salad in my eyes
😄😄😄
I thought that the Gigafactory produced NCA batteries by Panasonic for Tesla Electric cars. I know Tesla has been buying batteries from several mainstream battery manufacturers to keep up with the quantity of cars made. The NCA has different thermal and safety characteristics to EV batteries such as NCM and LFP. The video keeps saying NCM where the Gigafactory makes NCA. LFP does have the best thermal / safety characteristics and longer life in the vehicle.
Is there a list of companies that are publicly traded for an all electric economy or fund
I like that they can be charged to 100%, they don't catch fire etc. But.. But.. But... Can they be improved?
If LFP batteries lose a lot of energy in the cold, then maybe they do need more thermal management, not to keep them cool but to keep them warm.
@@seniorcousin Look up about the BYD Han with the Blade battery and in the colder parts of China, that car has a 605km NEDC range yet many owners are getting around 240km in the cold season
LFP do not lose energy in the cold. The problem is increased internal resistance so they can’t deliver the charge they do hold. Around 20 degrees C is ideal but 10 to 20 is good enough.
@@seniorcousin LFP has to be kept around 15 degrees C. It’s not a huge hike and easily delivered using the home charger. However for reliability in cold weather, manufacturers will have to insulate the battery pack adding an additional height to the floor pan.
Just found this again. LFP makes the most sense. They will need thermal insulation for colder weather conditions (more bulk) but quite likely won’t need as much cooling as other chemistries.
6352 Emmerich Extension
If you are fine with the range of the smaller battery, you can use the bigger battery with a charge limit of 70-80%. The battery probably will degrade slower than the smaller LFP battery that is permanently charged to 100%.
LFP all the way! That 10 or so miles range difference is negligible, and within a few years, the difference in degradation would see the LFP packs catch up with the NMC packs in terms of range. Unless you're buying a Tesla for pure performance (and people who buy the standard range clearly are not) then the power density and energy density advantage of the NMC packs make sense, but otherwise you would be way better off with an LFP pack. The only other reason I suppose for people not to want an LFP pack is of course that they want to be patriotic and will only buy "Made in America" and won't touch "Made in China" "Junk". Well then it's clearly not for you.
It's a pity that the Nissan LEAF doesn't have LFP packs, as the lack of a battery cooling system really limits what would have been a brilliant car otherwise. An LFP pack would have made the LEAF much more affordable and also eliminate what is its worst fault - battery degradation.
I can only hope that some smart Chinese entrepreneur would start building and exporting aftermarket LEAF replacement batteries built with LFPs.
Thank you for commenting.
I knew the LFP would take off in the European market ad well ad here in the US when I realized the same type of comparison after watching Bjorn Nyland's video doing a range test with the Model 3 SR in Norway.
Seen the second half yet?
I don’t know man, I feel like LFP is a marketing gimmick in order to cover the fact that they’re inferior. Why didn’t they use these batteries from the start? Because of global raw material storage, I feel like LFP is the solution. But not the best performer.
The timing is too suspicious for me. I just reserved a Model 3 lithium ion and I feel more comfortable with that.
Well LFP perform worse in cold weather but apart from that seems to be all advantages as they are slowly getting larger in size and offering better range.
same feeling.
Hi Sam, do you know Vinfast from Vietnam ( heard on Scotty’s channel)?
Great comparison on the batteries.
Love the channel. Keep up the good work.
I'm glad you enjoy it!
Near term LPF for the win. Solid state and other new tech which is safe and as durable as LPF or even more so will be coming in the next few years. LPF makes lots of sense. Would like to see Tesla manufacture and improve them to get more energy density out of them. I am leaning toward a LPF Tesla for my next vehicle purchase. I would like to see a Model 3 with a 300+ miles range with the LPF battery. I am not crazy about the recommendation for the 100% charge and I think they need to improve the BMS so that we don't have to hammer those batteries just so we can figure out what the charge status is.
A few things to consider.
All LIFEPO4 cells have to do is be "sufficient"
Bjørn just completed a test where a 50 kWh model 3 held its own on a test which a "big battery" Mach E and Taycan.
It's the "system" which is important
Form factor. Assuming the LifePo4 chemistry can be made into 4680 cells, it becomes VERY cheap.
Battery day.
There was a chart / graph in the "cathode discussion" showing a LifePo4 cell at about 600wh/kg(!)
Typo?
If not......
1) They're sandbagging
2) No need for other chemistry for cars!
Update.
The Model 3 win the range test easily.
LFP is better. Said before watching. But NCM in certain situations
On road-tripping, there are two reasons not to charge to 100%. First, battery degradation. This, apparently, we may ignore for LFP's. Second, charge curve. It generally takes a long time to charge to 100%, so you don't want to rely on that when charging on a road trip. Do LFP's have a more generous charge curve than you average NCA?
Yes, watch Bjorn LFP charging curves
How long until we see Sodium ion Batteries coming out of china like LFP?
Do you think Tesla will manufacture their own 4680 lfp batteries when the patent runs out?
Cheers
Dennis
My 2¢ is that they will at some point, as will others.
Elon has the correct answer for LFP because is is a political correct answer and not because he is on general consumer’s side. His agenda is to lead and popularized EV globally LFP is a fast ticket for him.
If a LiFePO4 battery is to be used at low temps (
As far as Tesla (and SpaceX) is concerned they will be using lots of stainless steel going forward which can contain 6-26% nickel.
I haven’t been able to buy the lifepo4 cheaper
Are any LFP cars on the market able to get close to 400 miles?
Price sells.....Safety sells..............BYD wins.....LiFePo4 wins...........Paul
NCA
Nickel cobalt aluminium oxide
NCA batteries are better than LFP in all practical measurements.
Firstly, on degredation, NCA rated for 1500 cycles on batteries that have typically 500km range = 750,000km. LFP rated for 2000 cycles on (roughly) 400km range = 800,000km. Average life of a car = 240,000km. Both batteries will outlive your car by 3x!
Secondly, 100% range vs 80% range.. range only matters on road trips, and DC charging etiquette is to only change to 80% for either battery. NCA charges faster and its 80% is more capacity than LFP 80%.
Therefore NCA wins again.
Thank you so much for your clear explanations; I can get a clearer handle on things now when 'experts' like to baffle us with long words and acronyms!
Yeah, I will say there’s a big difference though between knowing these surface level details and knowing the specific electrochemical mechanisms that explain WHY the differences between these materials exist. I’m just saying there is a time, place and audience for the ‘expert’ explanations. They are doing useful work
nca vs LFP lithium ion
Go to "this electric life" he made a video of the lfp battery, based on some sweedish research and stress test on these batteries. And the Thing with 100% reguarly chargeing dont fit the research. It have a tremendous life span if you charge properly. But thats around 60-75% Max. And at the same time you shouldnt go lower than 50%.
But this is made for those that dont have those long drives daily.
@3:22 Honda not Hyundai
Everyone clean aviation 🤔
Also using batteries to 0% also contributes to degradation expecially for MCN batteries. Depends on how much you drive the car it is completely likely that the LFP car will have a bigger range after 1 or 2 years due to difference in degradation.
This doesn't make sense in cars because you need more batteries for same power output and more batteries equals to heavier cars, and EVs are already insanely heavy and still can't even compare to ICE cars when looking at range+charging times
BYD battery
LIF batteries will be ideal for Australia.
As long as it doesn't go over 45'C. Woops Too late for me.
It really is game over, isn’t it? The fact that the LFP pack can routinely be charged to 100% without affecting battery life, whereas the typical NMC pack can only be charged to 80% means, as you point out, that the effective capacity of LFP batteries is at least the equal of NMC batteries.
And even with this coddling, the lifetime of the NMC battery is severalfold shorter than the LFP type, all while LFP batteries are cheaper to make, a lot safer, and more environmentally friendly (no mining of cobalt under appalling conditions in places like the Congo).
even i agree with everyone (including elon).
2 Years later LG Chem still hasn't learned
clothes line battery. get it
Perhaps you agree with Elon.
Tesla is stalling they are either waiting for the patent to run out on lfp or waiting till they have silicon batteries solved before they realease the cyber truck semi and roadster
My problem is I live in an environment where the winters are -20 to -30 degrees Fahrenheit! I need a 1000 mile battery that doesn’t exhibit degradation and will lose next to nothing in this type of weather! It needs a high mileage battery due to the losing up to 50% in cold weather!
sodium ion battery, is the good option for cold weather, losing about 10%, I think.
In China, they have released world 1st EV equipped with Sodium Ion Battery, in Dec.2023.
2023 "Office of Australia’s Chief Economist" whonknew nothing said cheap & popular Chinese Li battery LFP is not as suitable to Australia
Saying lithium-ion nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) and nickel-cobalt-aluminium (NCA) batteries are more suitable
Without knowing how dangerous these ternary battery are!!!
In accident once short circuit they instantly burst into no stoppable extremely hot flame and continuely produce oxygen
Therefore hardky ever one can put out the fire!!!
global chip shortage my a$$. where did Tesla get the chips, ordered just in time, to build cars and trucks? Meanwhile, I've got a busted Powerwall, and two more that I've been waiting OVER A YEAR for.
What the H is Elon doing?
@3:52 What? Bull shit! In my life time have i ever heard of a gas or diesel car catch fire while parkt. Come on man. That nonsense..
All the time. Especiqlly exotics like lamborghini gallarod
I think it is a little hypocritical of Elon to complain about Bitcoin mining and sell cars with batteries with materials that require huge amounts of energy to mine and refine while the LFP battery is available.