Thank you for watching! Check out these other videos too: The Number 1 Thing Missing With Your Character: ua-cam.com/video/NA-H5o79Tx0/v-deo.html How to Write Better Conflict: ua-cam.com/video/WeOE2j0VSQ0/v-deo.html
OH! Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind when a character gets killed off or sad deaths. I think, in the right context, they are really powerful. All I am saying/offering is a different angle or tactic to take to develop characters and even break them :). Thank you for watching and the comment!
@@bazdotorg Well I REALLY appreciate that! Thank you so much for saying so:). I do love getting other writers perspectives and takes. All of it helps with the next video!
Cowardly characters are a great example of this, as each time they run away, they sacrifice a small part of themselves to ward off their fear. A Coward dies a thousand deaths, before they are finally confronted with the ultimate cost of their cowardice.
Well said. I do love that quote/saying. Cowardess characters are really fun to write--honestly, any character with a severely undesirable trait is fun to write. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@intellectually_lazy I don't think I implied that. Mostly was saying that heroes with flaws or undesirable traits are more enjoyable to write and can lead to a more interesting story. We are talking about fiction still, right?
5:17 That happened in a story of mine. The deuteragonist wanted the glory of being a hero, and the villain gave the opportunity to be recognized by everyone at the cost of his friends' and daughter's lives. He refused it and never "completed his arc" because although he became a recognized hero, he never lived to see that, and that was his dream: To see the people recognize him as a hero, and he never fullfilled it. Textbook definition of tragedy.
For the story I'm writing I was thinking something worse than dead for each of the main characters(not to actually use them all, but to know how to write them better) and in this video you said clearly many things I was thinking but I was struggling to get focus on. Thanks!
I’m so glad you found my video helpful! Yeah the fate or worse outcome than death was one of those things that felt like a revelations about writing and character development. Thank you so much for watching!
l don’t know, sometimes an unceremonious sendoff of an important character can hit just right. If you’re going for a realistic vibe having important characters die off in unexpected ways can reinstate that feeling of your world being a place where anything can happen, even things that seem unfair and cruel. At the end of the day, the real world has historically been unbiased when it comes to moral compasses, religious views or even historical significance. Alexander the Great died from illness, you get the idea.
I do agree with you! All that I am saying is that if you understand that thing that might be a fate worse than death, there will be an added thematic layer to your character and whatever stakes they might face. It's sort of like understanding the wants/needs/desires but on steroids. Thank you for watching and for sharing your perspective! I really appreciate it!
It is a fantastic film, even if you know what is going to happen. The duels are some of the most accurate forms of sword fighting portrayed in a film. Thank you for watching and for the comment!
I’m only 8 and a half minutes in so you may mention it but for me a character having their memory wiped can be so much worse then simply dying. My go to example is Donna in Doctor Who, she has amazing adventures and grows tremendously as a character over the series but in the end has to forget everything and her character resets to before she becomes a companion, it’s honestly devastating to see, especially her reaction but also the aftermath with the Doctor and Donna’s family who do still remember everything
I think the novel "All Tomorrows" by C.M. Kösemen is the epitome of fate worse than death. Although the book is not character driven; the pain, sympathy and the compassionate desire to see them dead that makes you feel for how each character, or rather, each human sub-species, is just unexplainable... One human species called the Colonials, was turned into a wall of flesh just with a mouth and some eyes, just to consume the biological waste of the Qu (the beings which turned them into the very wall of flesh), them being in constant agony for millions of years while being conscious and remembering their past... (Kinda is like the combination of the situations in "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream", and "Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood") There are many sub human-species whom were also turned into different abominations and honestly, their situations are also so gut-wrenching you'd want to see them dead asap. (Kinda unrelated but how about the Etruscans whom saw the city they built, Rome, was disgustingly claimed by those uncivilized tribes whom decided to steal the name Rome and built their goofy ahh empire which had its base on everything the Etruscans had built... From religion (today's "rOmAn" mythology) to architecture to clothes to food and so on... I don't really like and even see it as a hypocrital act how those thief rOmAns are being praised and the people, or mostly men as you said, feel so sad (womp womp 🥱) for their downfalls (476 and 1453) but don't even mention and also refuse the acknowledge the astronomical influence the Etruscans had on the romans whom either destroyed or took everything the Etruscans had built before them...) Anyways, this was an awesome video that made deep dive into this topic. Thank you!
I haven't read All Tomorrows--I will have to check it out. Also, thanks for the detailed comment! I am not as familiar with that particular portion of history, but it sounds interesting. I'll have to spend some time reading about it. Also, thank you for watching and sharing your perspective, I really appreciate it!
I don’t remember the exact quote or where I heard it from but it went along the lines of “You know a person’s true character when they come face to face with their own death.” And I used that to analyze Cayde-6 and Uldren Sov’s death in D2. Death in Destiny was different for these characters because Cayde was a Guardian who has lived for over 100 years, whose job requires him to constantly die and resurrect. Uldren was an Awoken Prince, who had lived even longer. not aging a day only to return to earth where he now (extremely slowly) ages. When Cayde died he was brave, he kept fighting even though it was hopeless, even weakly cracking a few feeble jokes. Tossed a threat to Uldren “When my friend (the player) gets here you’re gonna be in a world of hurt”. And when the player spoke to him during his final moments Cayde was more worried about the player’s reaction to the situation than his own death. through ragged breaths he says things like “How’s my hair? Ha- speechless! Typical.”and then more sincerely “This isn’t on you” and his final words being “You tell Zavala and Ikora...the Vanguard...is the best bet... I've ever...lost...” he didn’t regret joining the Vanguard despite how much he hated being the Hunter Vanguard. He didn’t resent his fireteam. He didn’t blame anyone. And he wasn’t a coward. He accepted his death with his head held high and even mocked his killer. Uldren wasn’t a coward either. He had lost everything. His sister, his friends, his people who he turned against. He had become a monster in an “ends justify the means” kind of way and after realizing it was for nothing he stood by what he did. He even challenged the player in what they were doing. “The line between light and dark is oh so thin- do you know which side you’re on?” He knew his time was up, he believed in what he did and he continued to believe what he did was necessary. “Everything I did- I did for her.” When he was finally cornered he accepted his fate at the player’s hands and with whatever dignity he had left. It makes me think of my own characters and how they’d face their own deaths. What’s the worst thing to happen to them before their death and what would their response to their death be like? One in particular was of an arrogant and selfish man who grows and matured into the leader his teammates needed him to become. But I picture his death comes after the death of his teammates. Maybe it’s not something he whole heartedly realized throughout his time with them, but for him the worst case scenario was out living his teammates. After everything he did, all the hard work he put into protecting his team, they still ended up dying and in the end he blamed himself for failing them.
Oh my god I was walking my dog and I butt-donated to you accidentally lmao. But honestly, this was a very informative video and I thoroughly enjoyed it! So I guess this was meant to be, you've earned yourself a new subscriber, can't wait to see your future work
OH NO! Well I can look into how to refund you. If you send me an email I can try to PayPal you! Thank you though for the kind words I still appreciate you very much!
While this is true, it also requires a deeper understanding of your character. The motivation can be “don’t die “or “beat the bad guy” but this motivation is elevated if there is something else or something in addition at stake. Thank you so much for watching and thank you for the comment!
@@SnakeWasRight Well, mostly it was a cyncal joke from my part about how hard the life for most people. A good question nonetheless... Most people has no hope for dreaming big [or even small for that matter]. They can, but in the end, it is futile. Not to mention most of their dreams can traced back to their basic needs. Personally, I don't even need to trace anything to anywhere. I had a lot of goals and big dreams back then. I achieved half of it and I failed the other half. I'm content with it. I have everything I need and more. Dream job, dream wife, dream life [at least what I consider dream subjectively]. I had a wild, adventureous life. I seen a lot of things. I'm not that old, yet I experienced more than most people will in their entire life. From the place I'm at, there is only down for me. I arrived to the limits of my capabilities. There is not much left to do to me which I desire. Maybe never really was. When I do things I do it mostly to avoid thinking about the void inside me. I always did. I was running from the ugly thruth my entire life. The truth that achieving the goals will never statisfy or fulfill us. They are only sweet until we work for them, the moment we achive something they turn to ash. At least that's how it works for me and I'm tired of it.
@@SnakeWasRight Well, mostly it was a cyncal joke from my part about how hard the life for most people. They have no hope for dreaming big [or even small for that matter]. I mean, they can, but in the end, it is futile. Not to mention most of their dreams can traced back to their basic needs. A good question nonetheless... Personally, I don't even need to trace anything to anywhere. I had a lot of goals and big dreams in my life. I achieved half of it and I failed the other half. There's not a single one among them that I regret not achieving. I have everything I need and more. I had a wild, adventureous life. I've seen a lot of things. I'm not that old, yet I experienced more than most people will in their entire life. I even found the love of my life. I have everything. I should feel fullfilled, yet here I'm as an empty shell... There is nothing left to do which I desire. Maybe never really was. When I do things I do it mostly to avoid thinking about the void inside me. I always did. I was running from the ugly thruth my entire life. The truth that achieving the goals and dreams will never statisfy or fulfill us. They are only sweet until we work for and dream about them, the moment we achive something they turn to ash. It is a hollow mirage, a promising lie, a carrot dangling in front of the donkey's nose. At least that's how it feels for me and I'm tired of it. Honestly, I was happiest when I had nothing [I mean really nothing]. Goals and achievements don't make us happy the long term [at least if we actually achieve them]. Fighting for survival does though. :)
I think that at the beginning of the 2017 movie Hostiles, Captain Blocker is sent to a fate worse than death, if not worse from our perspective, then from his, very clearly. And it makes the entire journey all the more impactful.
It has been a while since I've seen Hostiles but I think you're right. Many Westerns use this storytelling element as an inciting event or as a drive for the main character to 'get even' or 'find justice' or 'go after whoever wronged/harmed them and/or their family'. Thank you for your comment and for watching :)!
@@wrestlingwithwords yes, it's the inciting incident of this one - and it's at least as impactful as the 'instant death of a close person' in so many other stories. I understand the need if it's supposed to be a revenge story, but using the alternative is no less effective.
Another thing you can do with character deaths is have them end their main character arc a while before they die and give them a kind of ‘New Game +’ where they decide where they want to go from here and it seems to the audience that they’re starting on a new character arc.
In one story that I am thinking of telling soon (it quite literally wrote itself) my point of view character, also my protagonist, endures the death of someone he loves. Even worse, he is framed for it which leads to rejection from his father, someone whose love is special to him. To top it all off, my protagonist is taken away from his family and as a result has no way to protect them from the real killer, who is still free; in this new location he is given the impossible dilemma: refuse to stop another murder or face pain (he has had an easy life to this point). Then, later, someone is killed and my protagonist has to decide again: will he say nothing and save himself or will he tell the truth and risk being killed and never reuniting with his family, unlikely as that may be? In addition the reason he is even in this distant place is because he didn't speak out to defend himself from the false accusations, he felt certain his father would believe him.
Another fate worse than death would be immortality and great examples of that are Wolverine and Jack Harkness. They both have to die again and again in often gruesome ways and then come back to life in a painful way. Also, since they can live forever, they also have to experience loss of their close ones. At these moments, they wish they could simply die for good but they can't.
Exactly! I had a longer segment written out for 'I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream' (but cut it because the video was getting a little lengthy) where I talked about AM being trapped as well in a fate worse than death. They were created and were given huge amounts of intelligence, but could do nothing with it. AM could not wander. AM could not wonder. AM, could not, belong. He could only...BE. This is a fate worse than death. Immortality is a great Fate Worse Than Death because there is so much tragedy baked into it that you could explore. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Another take is a fate worse than loss to death. It's a trope for a hero or villain an orphan, but there are worse things than not having that loving support in your life. - Being abandoned, or disclaimed/unclaimed especially by a well known and respected parent could be worse than losing them. (Can't think of one...) - Being estranged from them and unable to fix it (Colin in Secret Garden) - TOO involved in your MC's future can be a nightmare (All the characters to Marie in Everyone Loves Raymond) - Seemingly disapproves of everything you do. (Jack in LOST) - Makes you do something you don't want to do. (Balaam in Jupiter Ascending) - Don't see the big problem as a problem (Like Simon and River's parents in Firefly). - Parent didn't die, but they are evil (Luke Skywalker ) Just realized, Kate in Lost had 3 fates worse than the loss to death - her adoptive dad she admired all but disowned her, her real dad turns out to be abusive and her mom prefers her abusive dad to her. Overcoming that loss worse than death is a good redemption story.
This can apply to losing other characters, not just parents - so when considering killing someone off and how that affects the MCs, it could be helpful and interesting to think about what is worse than a loss to death.
@@jedielfqueen exactly! There are a ton of options. But don’t just limit yourself to think a characters fate worse than death will make a redemption story! There are a ton of arcs a character can go through when faced with, threatened, or motivated by a fate worse than death. Thank you for your comment and for watching!! :)
I’m currently writing a six-part political intrigue series where I’m considering having the main antagonists serve out fates they would consider worse than death (loss of allies, back to basics, etc.). I’ll admit, it’s a bit out of my comfort zone, but interests me, nonetheless.
Keep in mind that these don't always have to actually happen. The fate that is worse than death can be a fear, impacting their actions and decisions. It can also be something that has already happened to them or something they have seen happen to someone else. Thank you for your comment and for watching!
@@wrestlingwithwords A sci fi T.V series from the late 90s to the early 00s, Latrell worlds,staring Jerry O’Connor in the lead, staring as the young genius. The wound wasnt fatal but the cancelation was- after about 5 seasons. Great cast, concept, poor scripts though.
I very, very rarely kill characters, I tend to prefer to torment them, haha. I read somewhere once that 'death is cheap', and, for me, I only ever use a death when it's integral to moving other characters forward, and still, only when that character really has no other impetus to keep moving. Unfortunately, this habit of mine is pretty predictable, and my friends always ask "so, what's this one's traumatic backstory/destiny?" when I pitch characters to them. xD
Might be my spotty memory, but I don’t recall Omar doing anything close to warrant being used as an example villain. The guy was one of the more moral characters on the show.
Great point! So I have seen people label him as a TRUE anti-hero and even a 'new era villain'. I would say that The Wire does a really good job of creating a massive grayscale of characters where many are the heroes of their story while being the villains to others. Omar Little, I think, is miss-labeled as moral or even as being a hero. He has somewhat of a code of ethics but enacts vigilante justice which can be a disruptive force in a community and undermine law enforcement while endangering the public. It's complicated! Thank you though for the comment and for watching, I really appreciate it!
Your spelling of "steaks" at 24:02, is the steaks you grill on the bbq and have with onions, or baked potatoes and beans. The ones you mean are the "STAKES" Whether they be the wooden kind to kill a vampire or to anchor a tent, or the ones that are integral to a story.
This video feels like it should be to George Martin about game of thrones. They killed like so many characters and it seemed like too much to the point where it was like "this is just the culture of the show" and it almost took me out of the show bc I'm like of course he would kill that character
I totally understand where you are coming from with that and I get there are probably a lot of people who share that sentiment (though I think the show started to take this to an extreme and broke some of the logic/spirit of the characters)... However, I will say, that earlier seasons of the show and the books for that matter did do character deaths pretty well, and did a good job of also giving characters a fate worse than death (Jamie's hand... Lady Stone Heart... Tyrion's Shea.... Cersei and her children dying....) I could go on. But thank you for watching and for the comment! :)
I've come back and watched this a few times now. I really like the idea of finding the essence of a character to help create a more interesting and motivating narrative. I'm sure I'll come back to this video in the future! Also, the duelist is a classic!
Death serves a narrative role: it is a permanent consequence that removes a character from the story. Your alternative examples feel either impermanent or put too much of a spotlight on a character who now sticking around to undergo a character arc that is unrelated to the main plot. Your examples are fine ways to make characters suffer, but I would never pivot away from a character death into one of these.
First, thank you for the comment and for sharing your perspective, I really appreciate it. However, I think we agree for the most part, but I am just offering alternative narrative devices that might have the same effect (or a greater effect) on the audience and characters. Death does not just mean removing a character from the story. There are plenty of instances where death does not entirely remove a character's presence or impact. Death does not always mean THE END. And, what I am expressing, is that there are alternative things you can do to facilitate a similar effect on the audience and add as a point of conflict/tension. By no means am I telling you or any other writer to pivot away from what suits their story, all I am doing is offering an alternative threat and an alternative thematic conclusion you can have on a character. Thank you again for the comment and for sharing your opinion.
Actually yes! I thought about talking about some of the endings of Bloodborne, and how even those are a fate worse than death. Really good point and thank you for point that out!
Was hesitant to watch the video yesterday, since I find that topic is often done very bad. And you seemed not even to attempt to address the big issue that come with it. I mean the video was not bad, but the two biggest issues are that too often authors misuse this. Like becoming a cripple is somehow worse than death, and thus devaluing the lives of people who got an amputation or sit in a wheelchair. And that leads of course to the horrible trope of better off being dead, that comes then also quite often up in fiction that handles this poorly. So, if you want to talk more about this topic, maybe address those concerns which sadly too many authors seem not to even to consider the implications of what they put on the page.
@Drudenfusz Hey, I really appreciate the feedback and the critique. One thing that I will say is that, by virtue of the examples I gave and the actual steps I suggested, I was advocating against those concerns. I can't address everything, and I wanted this video to lean more toward a constructive "do this", as opposed to a cautionary, "don't do that". I know there can be a great deal of cliche tropes used in The Fate Worse Than Death, but what I suggested was specifically targeted at finding the essence of what a character values and cares about. And, in the same vain of your concerns, I even suggested a really great example of how a disability was done in an authentic way, and that the disability took away something that was a source of passion and identity (The Sund of Metal). Again, I will take this sort of suggestion as constructive criticism, and consider it for my next video. I appreciate you watching and taking the time to leave a thoughtful comment. Thank you!
in 68 years of life as a male, I have never had a single spontaneous converstation about Rome with anyone. I don't understand this new mimetic about a "male" fascination with Rome.
Thank you mr Aaron for your wonderful educational channel about creative writing and nece tips for beginners writers . I gathered main information about topic you mentioned briefly here it’s fate worse than death means to have to suffer through ordeal that makes person prefer death over going through again . As misfortunes which person life not worth living . This pharse fate worse than death used to mean rape of virgins in gibbon 1781 decline and fall of Roman Empire. Now even worse than that . Sometimes for writers death is cheap or maybe they have children as their intended audience or nosy censor and can’t kill of villain or character. Killing characters is device in fiction where character dies , but story continues. This term frequently applied to television, films , video games. Killing character that has served their purpose within story . There guide how to kill character ensure there are narrative purpose . Deliver sufficient emotional impact , balance death against reader investment, invest in foreshadowing and willd up .consider consequences and aftermath, be sure to avoid cliches . Create closure and resolution. Happy mother day . We celebrated mother day in Arabic countries as well as England last March. It’s different date around world you in USA and Canada on May.
"Can you imagine what that must have been like?" Yes. As a man I am required by Council Mandate Number: 377 to think about Rome and contemplate its fall at least once per day.
um, scuse me. you guys don't just get to have rome, even as an insult. who's the chair of roman studies at oxford? not a guy, that's who. her name is mary beard. maybe you've heard of her
@@intellectually_lazy I've had other commenters say that their comments get deleted or don't show up in their threads too. Might be that YT thinks there is spam or something. Regardless, thanks for watching and for your comments. I really appreciate it.
I went with the "afterlife is worse than death" theme in my book. Mostly due to the fact that I write a fantasy and the main cast can be revieved. So I wanted to make death something which they avoid at all cost. The same time life is taking a heavy toll on them [so much so, that one of the main character's intruduction scene is a commit die attempt]. So they stuck in between the choice of "I live and do terrible things for the sake of living or die and suffer even more." Although, in the end they created their own twisted paradise where everyone can live in their twisted happiness. Life can be horrifying, but you need to find a way to enjoy it.
"Fate worse than death" is weird. It's basically a nihilistic slogan, a resignation that living is worse than dying. That people would rather die than to suffer. Which... follows. People have been willing to die for a cause rather than be part of an establishment they hate. Torture is torture, be it physical, sexual, emotional, ideological, intellectual... We would rather die than be compromised. That sounds like a good character...
Thank you for your comment! However, I’m not sure-or at least it seems-that you didn’t watch the video. The point that I was making is centered around the literary usage of this term as a storytelling device. A fate worse than death is putting a character in front of an obstacle and having it affect them on a deeper level than their own death. Thanks again for your comment and sharing your perspective.
a fate worse than death to lovecraft: having "impure" bloodlines, but apparently not being the toxic inventor of inceldom, probably because his death was as harsh as his loser, hateful life, but hey, open source
Thank you for watching! Check out these other videos too:
The Number 1 Thing Missing With Your Character: ua-cam.com/video/NA-H5o79Tx0/v-deo.html
How to Write Better Conflict: ua-cam.com/video/WeOE2j0VSQ0/v-deo.html
I like how a "fate worse that death" means to live, or better yet, to fully live, with all of existence's absurdity, suffering and tragicness.
This is a good way of looking at it too!
as long as a sacrifice or death serves to drive growth in everyone else... i don't mind a sad sendoff
OH! Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind when a character gets killed off or sad deaths. I think, in the right context, they are really powerful. All I am saying/offering is a different angle or tactic to take to develop characters and even break them :).
Thank you for watching and the comment!
@@wrestlingwithwords all of your videos are super insightful and helpful!! :) just wanted to say that too lol
@@bazdotorg Well I REALLY appreciate that! Thank you so much for saying so:). I do love getting other writers perspectives and takes. All of it helps with the next video!
ugh! what is this? moulin rouge?
Oh boromir the tower of guard shall ever northward gaze to rauros golden rouros falls until the end of days.
Cowardly characters are a great example of this, as each time they run away, they sacrifice a small part of themselves to ward off their fear.
A Coward dies a thousand deaths, before they are finally confronted with the ultimate cost of their cowardice.
Well said. I do love that quote/saying. Cowardess characters are really fun to write--honestly, any character with a severely undesirable trait is fun to write. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
right, cause you'd definitely do better in a traumatic situation. surely you'd never fail a test of your mettle. let's laugh at the weak! how foolish!
@@wrestlingwithwords okay, i do love it when they lie to themselves. funniest thing in my super dark, sad sack story
@@intellectually_lazy Would you say that you prefer writing characters with very little, or even no flaws?
@@intellectually_lazy I don't think I implied that. Mostly was saying that heroes with flaws or undesirable traits are more enjoyable to write and can lead to a more interesting story. We are talking about fiction still, right?
5:17 That happened in a story of mine. The deuteragonist wanted the glory of being a hero, and the villain gave the opportunity to be recognized by everyone at the cost of his friends' and daughter's lives. He refused it and never "completed his arc" because although he became a recognized hero, he never lived to see that, and that was his dream: To see the people recognize him as a hero, and he never fullfilled it. Textbook definition of tragedy.
Wonderful! (tragic, but exactly the point). Thank you for sharing and for your comment!
I like that you cite your references
It’s something I am going to try to do more often. Thank you for watching!
For the story I'm writing I was thinking something worse than dead for each of the main characters(not to actually use them all, but to know how to write them better) and in this video you said clearly many things I was thinking but I was struggling to get focus on. Thanks!
I’m so glad you found my video helpful! Yeah the fate or worse outcome than death was one of those things that felt like a revelations about writing and character development. Thank you so much for watching!
i used buried alive, pretty close to the beginning
and one character i got sick of, killed him twice
Broke: *Character deaths are necessary for like, stakes, and um… telling a mature story and stuff…*
Woke: *_They can't suffer when they're dead!_*
l don’t know, sometimes an unceremonious sendoff of an important character can hit just right. If you’re going for a realistic vibe having important characters die off in unexpected ways can reinstate that feeling of your world being a place where anything can happen, even things that seem unfair and cruel. At the end of the day, the real world has historically been unbiased when it comes to moral compasses, religious views or even historical significance. Alexander the Great died from illness, you get the idea.
I do agree with you! All that I am saying is that if you understand that thing that might be a fate worse than death, there will be an added thematic layer to your character and whatever stakes they might face. It's sort of like understanding the wants/needs/desires but on steroids.
Thank you for watching and for sharing your perspective! I really appreciate it!
@@wrestlingwithwords Sorry I typed this out without fully watching the video. You addressed exactly what I said🤣
@@abdulla10955 no problem :). Holding me accountable!!!
the old tasha yarr treatment: die like a redshirt
I've never heard of The Duelist. Thanks for sharing some classic examples! 🎉🎉
It is a fantastic film, even if you know what is going to happen. The duels are some of the most accurate forms of sword fighting portrayed in a film. Thank you for watching and for the comment!
I’m only 8 and a half minutes in so you may mention it but for me a character having their memory wiped can be so much worse then simply dying. My go to example is Donna in Doctor Who, she has amazing adventures and grows tremendously as a character over the series but in the end has to forget everything and her character resets to before she becomes a companion, it’s honestly devastating to see, especially her reaction but also the aftermath with the Doctor and Donna’s family who do still remember everything
@@jessicastrike5640 yeah, that is a great example! I don’t mention that one in particular but that totally works.
Great video, man. You had me taking notes for the first time lol. I'll definitely be applying this to my novel.
I am really touched that this was so helpful. Please keep us updated on the progress of your novel. Thank you for watching and for your kind comment!
I think the novel "All Tomorrows" by C.M. Kösemen is the epitome of fate worse than death. Although the book is not character driven; the pain, sympathy and the compassionate desire to see them dead that makes you feel for how each character, or rather, each human sub-species, is just unexplainable...
One human species called the Colonials, was turned into a wall of flesh just with a mouth and some eyes, just to consume the biological waste of the Qu (the beings which turned them into the very wall of flesh), them being in constant agony for millions of years while being conscious and remembering their past... (Kinda is like the combination of the situations in "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream", and "Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood")
There are many sub human-species whom were also turned into different abominations and honestly, their situations are also so gut-wrenching you'd want to see them dead asap.
(Kinda unrelated but how about the Etruscans whom saw the city they built, Rome, was disgustingly claimed by those uncivilized tribes whom decided to steal the name Rome and built their goofy ahh empire which had its base on everything the Etruscans had built... From religion (today's "rOmAn" mythology) to architecture to clothes to food and so on... I don't really like and even see it as a hypocrital act how those thief rOmAns are being praised and the people, or mostly men as you said, feel so sad (womp womp 🥱) for their downfalls (476 and 1453) but don't even mention and also refuse the acknowledge the astronomical influence the Etruscans had on the romans whom either destroyed or took everything the Etruscans had built before them...)
Anyways, this was an awesome video that made deep dive into this topic. Thank you!
I haven't read All Tomorrows--I will have to check it out. Also, thanks for the detailed comment! I am not as familiar with that particular portion of history, but it sounds interesting. I'll have to spend some time reading about it.
Also, thank you for watching and sharing your perspective, I really appreciate it!
"Anything but the Whip!"
"Anything?"
"The Whip. The Whip."
I was tempted to also put the scene in from The Wicker Man... "NOT THE BEEESSS! AHHHhhhHHHghhhH"
I don’t remember the exact quote or where I heard it from but it went along the lines of “You know a person’s true character when they come face to face with their own death.” And I used that to analyze Cayde-6 and Uldren Sov’s death in D2. Death in Destiny was different for these characters because Cayde was a Guardian who has lived for over 100 years, whose job requires him to constantly die and resurrect. Uldren was an Awoken Prince, who had lived even longer. not aging a day only to return to earth where he now (extremely slowly) ages. When Cayde died he was brave, he kept fighting even though it was hopeless, even weakly cracking a few feeble jokes. Tossed a threat to Uldren “When my friend (the player) gets here you’re gonna be in a world of hurt”. And when the player spoke to him during his final moments Cayde was more worried about the player’s reaction to the situation than his own death. through ragged breaths he says things like “How’s my hair? Ha- speechless! Typical.”and then more sincerely “This isn’t on you” and his final words being “You tell Zavala and Ikora...the Vanguard...is the best bet... I've ever...lost...” he didn’t regret joining the Vanguard despite how much he hated being the Hunter Vanguard. He didn’t resent his fireteam. He didn’t blame anyone. And he wasn’t a coward. He accepted his death with his head held high and even mocked his killer.
Uldren wasn’t a coward either. He had lost everything. His sister, his friends, his people who he turned against. He had become a monster in an “ends justify the means” kind of way and after realizing it was for nothing he stood by what he did. He even challenged the player in what they were doing. “The line between light and dark is oh so thin- do you know which side you’re on?” He knew his time was up, he believed in what he did and he continued to believe what he did was necessary. “Everything I did- I did for her.” When he was finally cornered he accepted his fate at the player’s hands and with whatever dignity he had left.
It makes me think of my own characters and how they’d face their own deaths. What’s the worst thing to happen to them before their death and what would their response to their death be like?
One in particular was of an arrogant and selfish man who grows and matured into the leader his teammates needed him to become. But I picture his death comes after the death of his teammates. Maybe it’s not something he whole heartedly realized throughout his time with them, but for him the worst case scenario was out living his teammates. After everything he did, all the hard work he put into protecting his team, they still ended up dying and in the end he blamed himself for failing them.
Gege Akutami should be taking some pointers lmao
Danke!
Thank you so much!! Cheers to being the first super chat :)❤️
Oh my god I was walking my dog and I butt-donated to you accidentally lmao. But honestly, this was a very informative video and I thoroughly enjoyed it!
So I guess this was meant to be, you've earned yourself a new subscriber, can't wait to see your future work
OH NO! Well I can look into how to refund you. If you send me an email I can try to PayPal you! Thank you though for the kind words I still appreciate you very much!
This is EXACTLY what I needed at this time! I need to express how AMAZING this video is. Thankyou so much!!
I am really happy this was helpful! Thank you for the kind comment and for watching, I appreciate it very much.
7:03 break my heart, Nicole Robin ❤❤
😭
Problem with this approach is that the writer must actually have character motivation beyond "not die" or "beat bad guy"
While this is true, it also requires a deeper understanding of your character. The motivation can be “don’t die “or “beat the bad guy” but this motivation is elevated if there is something else or something in addition at stake. Thank you so much for watching and thank you for the comment!
@@wrestlingwithwords indeed!
@@mayorathfoglaltvolt really? You have no deeper goals than just staying alive? Nothing and no one else is important to you beyond pure survival?
@@SnakeWasRight Well, mostly it was a cyncal joke from my part about how hard the life for most people.
A good question nonetheless... Most people has no hope for dreaming big [or even small for that matter]. They can, but in the end, it is futile. Not to mention most of their dreams can traced back to their basic needs.
Personally, I don't even need to trace anything to anywhere. I had a lot of goals and big dreams back then. I achieved half of it and I failed the other half. I'm content with it. I have everything I need and more. Dream job, dream wife, dream life [at least what I consider dream subjectively]. I had a wild, adventureous life. I seen a lot of things. I'm not that old, yet I experienced more than most people will in their entire life.
From the place I'm at, there is only down for me. I arrived to the limits of my capabilities. There is not much left to do to me which I desire. Maybe never really was.
When I do things I do it mostly to avoid thinking about the void inside me. I always did. I was running from the ugly thruth my entire life. The truth that achieving the goals will never statisfy or fulfill us. They are only sweet until we work for them, the moment we achive something they turn to ash. At least that's how it works for me and I'm tired of it.
@@SnakeWasRight Well, mostly it was a cyncal joke from my part about how hard the life for most people. They have no hope for dreaming big [or even small for that matter]. I mean, they can, but in the end, it is futile. Not to mention most of their dreams can traced back to their basic needs.
A good question nonetheless...
Personally, I don't even need to trace anything to anywhere. I had a lot of goals and big dreams in my life. I achieved half of it and I failed the other half. There's not a single one among them that I regret not achieving. I have everything I need and more. I had a wild, adventureous life. I've seen a lot of things. I'm not that old, yet I experienced more than most people will in their entire life. I even found the love of my life. I have everything. I should feel fullfilled, yet here I'm as an empty shell...
There is nothing left to do which I desire. Maybe never really was.
When I do things I do it mostly to avoid thinking about the void inside me. I always did. I was running from the ugly thruth my entire life. The truth that achieving the goals and dreams will never statisfy or fulfill us. They are only sweet until we work for and dream about them, the moment we achive something they turn to ash. It is a hollow mirage, a promising lie, a carrot dangling in front of the donkey's nose.
At least that's how it feels for me and I'm tired of it.
Honestly, I was happiest when I had nothing [I mean really nothing]. Goals and achievements don't make us happy the long term [at least if we actually achieve them]. Fighting for survival does though. :)
"A fate worse than a fate worse than death? That's pretty bad." - Edmund Blackadder
I think that at the beginning of the 2017 movie Hostiles, Captain Blocker is sent to a fate worse than death, if not worse from our perspective, then from his, very clearly. And it makes the entire journey all the more impactful.
It has been a while since I've seen Hostiles but I think you're right. Many Westerns use this storytelling element as an inciting event or as a drive for the main character to 'get even' or 'find justice' or 'go after whoever wronged/harmed them and/or their family'.
Thank you for your comment and for watching :)!
@@wrestlingwithwords yes, it's the inciting incident of this one - and it's at least as impactful as the 'instant death of a close person' in so many other stories. I understand the need if it's supposed to be a revenge story, but using the alternative is no less effective.
Another thing you can do with character deaths is have them end their main character arc a while before they die and give them a kind of ‘New Game +’ where they decide where they want to go from here and it seems to the audience that they’re starting on a new character arc.
I have yet to decide whether my MC survives the climax and has to live with the consequences or dies in battle as he’s always hoped to.
Living with the consequences could be worse than their own death!
@@wrestlingwithwords It absolutely would. I'm just not quite sure yet which option is most appropriate for story arc/theme.
This was Great!!!
Thanks for watching and I'm glad it was helpful!
In one story that I am thinking of telling soon (it quite literally wrote itself) my point of view character, also my protagonist, endures the death of someone he loves. Even worse, he is framed for it which leads to rejection from his father, someone whose love is special to him. To top it all off, my protagonist is taken away from his family and as a result has no way to protect them from the real killer, who is still free; in this new location he is given the impossible dilemma: refuse to stop another murder or face pain (he has had an easy life to this point). Then, later, someone is killed and my protagonist has to decide again: will he say nothing and save himself or will he tell the truth and risk being killed and never reuniting with his family, unlikely as that may be? In addition the reason he is even in this distant place is because he didn't speak out to defend himself from the false accusations, he felt certain his father would believe him.
Another fate worse than death would be immortality and great examples of that are Wolverine and Jack Harkness. They both have to die again and again in often gruesome ways and then come back to life in a painful way. Also, since they can live forever, they also have to experience loss of their close ones. At these moments, they wish they could simply die for good but they can't.
Exactly! I had a longer segment written out for 'I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream' (but cut it because the video was getting a little lengthy) where I talked about AM being trapped as well in a fate worse than death. They were created and were given huge amounts of intelligence, but could do nothing with it.
AM could not wander. AM could not wonder. AM, could not, belong. He could only...BE. This is a fate worse than death.
Immortality is a great Fate Worse Than Death because there is so much tragedy baked into it that you could explore. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I really enjoyed this video! Very helpful!
Another take is a fate worse than loss to death. It's a trope for a hero or villain an orphan, but there are worse things than not having that loving support in your life.
- Being abandoned, or disclaimed/unclaimed especially by a well known and respected parent could be worse than losing them. (Can't think of one...)
- Being estranged from them and unable to fix it (Colin in Secret Garden)
- TOO involved in your MC's future can be a nightmare (All the characters to Marie in Everyone Loves Raymond)
- Seemingly disapproves of everything you do. (Jack in LOST)
- Makes you do something you don't want to do. (Balaam in Jupiter Ascending)
- Don't see the big problem as a problem (Like Simon and River's parents in Firefly).
- Parent didn't die, but they are evil (Luke Skywalker )
Just realized, Kate in Lost had 3 fates worse than the loss to death - her adoptive dad she admired all but disowned her, her real dad turns out to be abusive and her mom prefers her abusive dad to her.
Overcoming that loss worse than death is a good redemption story.
This can apply to losing other characters, not just parents - so when considering killing someone off and how that affects the MCs, it could be helpful and interesting to think about what is worse than a loss to death.
@@jedielfqueen exactly! There are a ton of options. But don’t just limit yourself to think a characters fate worse than death will make a redemption story! There are a ton of arcs a character can go through when faced with, threatened, or motivated by a fate worse than death. Thank you for your comment and for watching!! :)
Someone show this to Gege Akutami please. He's writing the plot in a death note.
That calamity gave us St. Augustine's City of God
I’m currently writing a six-part political intrigue series where I’m considering having the main antagonists serve out fates they would consider worse than death (loss of allies, back to basics, etc.). I’ll admit, it’s a bit out of my comfort zone, but interests me, nonetheless.
Keep in mind that these don't always have to actually happen. The fate that is worse than death can be a fear, impacting their actions and decisions. It can also be something that has already happened to them or something they have seen happen to someone else. Thank you for your comment and for watching!
Thank you
Thank you for watching!
Remember Quin Malery from sliders? He got shot And worse, cancelled.
This is a reference I do not know 😅.
@@wrestlingwithwords A sci fi T.V series from the late 90s to the early 00s, Latrell worlds,staring Jerry O’Connor in the lead, staring as the young genius. The wound wasnt fatal but the cancelation was- after about 5 seasons. Great cast, concept, poor scripts though.
1:09 the shallow "male fascination" !
🫨💁♂️
I don't think I'd cope well with killing off a character!
"I know what I must do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it!"
I very, very rarely kill characters, I tend to prefer to torment them, haha. I read somewhere once that 'death is cheap', and, for me, I only ever use a death when it's integral to moving other characters forward, and still, only when that character really has no other impetus to keep moving.
Unfortunately, this habit of mine is pretty predictable, and my friends always ask "so, what's this one's traumatic backstory/destiny?" when I pitch characters to them. xD
I don't think those are the kinds of "steaks" (23:48) one thinks about at times like this... unless it's your last supper. 😅
🫠
@kathyl6677 Thank you for being the first one to notice this :)...
good vid!
Thank you for saying so! And thank you so much for watching!
Might be my spotty memory, but I don’t recall Omar doing anything close to warrant being used as an example villain. The guy was one of the more moral characters on the show.
Great point! So I have seen people label him as a TRUE anti-hero and even a 'new era villain'. I would say that The Wire does a really good job of creating a massive grayscale of characters where many are the heroes of their story while being the villains to others. Omar Little, I think, is miss-labeled as moral or even as being a hero. He has somewhat of a code of ethics but enacts vigilante justice which can be a disruptive force in a community and undermine law enforcement while endangering the public. It's complicated!
Thank you though for the comment and for watching, I really appreciate it!
Jiraiyas death lead to Narutos massive development.
Your spelling of "steaks" at 24:02, is the steaks you grill on the bbq and have with onions, or baked potatoes and beans. The ones you mean are the "STAKES" Whether they be the wooden kind to kill a vampire or to anchor a tent, or the ones that are integral to a story.
Don't worry, I saw that. Thank you though.
aristotle called that catharthis
This video feels like it should be to George Martin about game of thrones. They killed like so many characters and it seemed like too much to the point where it was like "this is just the culture of the show" and it almost took me out of the show bc I'm like of course he would kill that character
I totally understand where you are coming from with that and I get there are probably a lot of people who share that sentiment (though I think the show started to take this to an extreme and broke some of the logic/spirit of the characters)... However, I will say, that earlier seasons of the show and the books for that matter did do character deaths pretty well, and did a good job of also giving characters a fate worse than death (Jamie's hand... Lady Stone Heart... Tyrion's Shea.... Cersei and her children dying....) I could go on.
But thank you for watching and for the comment! :)
I've come back and watched this a few times now. I really like the idea of finding the essence of a character to help create a more interesting and motivating narrative. I'm sure I'll come back to this video in the future! Also, the duelist is a classic!
Thank you!
hmm 6 duels and it didn't even take 5 freakin' hours! looking at you, hamilton
Cool.
at the time Rome wasn't the capital of the empire for a few centuries ...
Small misspeak. Thanks for the correction and thank you for watching, I appreciate it.
I just wrote a novel on 1295 and now I am writing on 935
What genre are you writing in?
@@wrestlingwithwords semi-historical medieval 🏰
@@andre_santos2181 AWESOME!
Death serves a narrative role: it is a permanent consequence that removes a character from the story. Your alternative examples feel either impermanent or put too much of a spotlight on a character who now sticking around to undergo a character arc that is unrelated to the main plot.
Your examples are fine ways to make characters suffer, but I would never pivot away from a character death into one of these.
First, thank you for the comment and for sharing your perspective, I really appreciate it. However, I think we agree for the most part, but I am just offering alternative narrative devices that might have the same effect (or a greater effect) on the audience and characters.
Death does not just mean removing a character from the story. There are plenty of instances where death does not entirely remove a character's presence or impact. Death does not always mean THE END. And, what I am expressing, is that there are alternative things you can do to facilitate a similar effect on the audience and add as a point of conflict/tension.
By no means am I telling you or any other writer to pivot away from what suits their story, all I am doing is offering an alternative threat and an alternative thematic conclusion you can have on a character. Thank you again for the comment and for sharing your opinion.
What would your fate worse than death be? Mine would be being possessed by an evil demon that wreaks havoc on my life.
Oh god. I wouldn't want to speak that into existence at let it live forever in my own comment section! Lol, thank you for watching :)!
"It's Pajama Day at work tomorrow. Put your pajamas on! >:]"
essence, lol. now i'm just being juvenille, but seriously, wash your hands
BT 😢😢
I know!!
"Trust me".....
shouldn'ta used that shellack wooden jerry
How do we clone you and get twice as many videos?
😅😅 This is both flattering and a personal, (self-identified) fault--I want to make more and make it faster!! Thank you for watching!
Gerhman's faith in Bloodborne is definitely worse than death
Actually yes! I thought about talking about some of the endings of Bloodborne, and how even those are a fate worse than death. Really good point and thank you for point that out!
Was hesitant to watch the video yesterday, since I find that topic is often done very bad. And you seemed not even to attempt to address the big issue that come with it. I mean the video was not bad, but the two biggest issues are that too often authors misuse this. Like becoming a cripple is somehow worse than death, and thus devaluing the lives of people who got an amputation or sit in a wheelchair. And that leads of course to the horrible trope of better off being dead, that comes then also quite often up in fiction that handles this poorly. So, if you want to talk more about this topic, maybe address those concerns which sadly too many authors seem not to even to consider the implications of what they put on the page.
@Drudenfusz Hey, I really appreciate the feedback and the critique. One thing that I will say is that, by virtue of the examples I gave and the actual steps I suggested, I was advocating against those concerns. I can't address everything, and I wanted this video to lean more toward a constructive "do this", as opposed to a cautionary, "don't do that". I know there can be a great deal of cliche tropes used in The Fate Worse Than Death, but what I suggested was specifically targeted at finding the essence of what a character values and cares about. And, in the same vain of your concerns, I even suggested a really great example of how a disability was done in an authentic way, and that the disability took away something that was a source of passion and identity (The Sund of Metal). Again, I will take this sort of suggestion as constructive criticism, and consider it for my next video. I appreciate you watching and taking the time to leave a thoughtful comment. Thank you!
For some reason this only has like 300 likes? I’m on the phone with UA-cam rn don’t worry king I’ll get this sorted
I appreciate every one of them and any that come after! Thank you for watching!
in 68 years of life as a male, I have never had a single spontaneous converstation about Rome with anyone.
I don't understand this new mimetic about a "male" fascination with Rome.
I think it is just a trendy joke that has been blown out to the extremes... You can thank the internet for doing its thing!
Nah if Aegon isn’t like this on the house of dragons show
The roman empire didn't fall. It just became the roman catholic church.
While true... The Empire did cease to exist!
Thank you mr Aaron for your wonderful educational channel about creative writing and nece tips for beginners writers . I gathered main information about topic you mentioned briefly here it’s fate worse than death means to have to suffer through ordeal that makes person prefer death over going through again . As misfortunes which person life not worth living . This pharse fate worse than death used to mean rape of virgins in gibbon 1781 decline and fall of Roman Empire. Now even worse than that . Sometimes for writers death is cheap or maybe they have children as their intended audience or nosy censor and can’t kill of villain or character. Killing characters is device in fiction where character dies , but story continues. This term frequently applied to television, films , video games. Killing character that has served their purpose within story . There guide how to kill character ensure there are narrative purpose . Deliver sufficient emotional impact , balance death against reader investment, invest in foreshadowing and willd up .consider consequences and aftermath, be sure to avoid cliches . Create closure and resolution. Happy mother day . We celebrated mother day in Arabic countries as well as England last March. It’s different date around world you in USA and Canada on May.
I appreciate your kind words and the effort you put into sharing your thoughts! Thank you for watching and happy Mother's Day to you!
"Can you imagine what that must have been like?"
Yes. As a man I am required by Council Mandate Number: 377 to think about Rome and contemplate its fall at least once per day.
Well done brother. The United Accord of Masculine Membership will be pleased with your response. 🫡… 😂😂
um, scuse me. you guys don't just get to have rome, even as an insult. who's the chair of roman studies at oxford? not a guy, that's who. her name is mary beard. maybe you've heard of her
i swear, i'm this close to disliking this and never watching your show again. go on, call me a "cuck" or whatever it is you people do
you, that's who i mean by that, you
geez, what happened to my second comment in this thread? well, i stayed, so you kept me watching. great job! but seriously, that was great, thanks
@@intellectually_lazy I've had other commenters say that their comments get deleted or don't show up in their threads too. Might be that YT thinks there is spam or something. Regardless, thanks for watching and for your comments. I really appreciate it.
I went with the "afterlife is worse than death" theme in my book. Mostly due to the fact that I write a fantasy and the main cast can be revieved. So I wanted to make death something which they avoid at all cost.
The same time life is taking a heavy toll on them [so much so, that one of the main character's intruduction scene is a commit die attempt]. So they stuck in between the choice of "I live and do terrible things for the sake of living or die and suffer even more."
Although, in the end they created their own twisted paradise where everyone can live in their twisted happiness.
Life can be horrifying, but you need to find a way to enjoy it.
I really like that concept!
"Fate worse than death" is weird. It's basically a nihilistic slogan, a resignation that living is worse than dying. That people would rather die than to suffer.
Which... follows. People have been willing to die for a cause rather than be part of an establishment they hate. Torture is torture, be it physical, sexual, emotional, ideological, intellectual... We would rather die than be compromised.
That sounds like a good character...
Thank you for your comment! However, I’m not sure-or at least it seems-that you didn’t watch the video. The point that I was making is centered around the literary usage of this term as a storytelling device. A fate worse than death is putting a character in front of an obstacle and having it affect them on a deeper level than their own death. Thanks again for your comment and sharing your perspective.
a fate worse than death to lovecraft: having "impure" bloodlines, but apparently not being the toxic inventor of inceldom, probably because his death was as harsh as his loser, hateful life, but hey, open source
If you cant be nice to your characters, dont write
Do you mean "if you can only be nice..."?
Thank you
And thank you for watching!