Thank you so much for covering the MS München, glad that one of the major ship channels covered it. Its sinking is kind of similar to the loss of the MV Derbyshire in 1980, Maybe that could be a good idea for a future video, Great video as always, keep up the good work.
As a retired merchant marine officer I always shared a little phrase stating that “I’d rather be in here wishin’ I was out there than out there wishin I was in here….”
@@loanlepercq7023 That’s where I stole the phrase from. An old Gentleman Peanut Farmer/Pilot I met at a Waffle House somewhere in Georgia shared it with me about flying many years ago. God Bless Mr. John
When in flight school my instructor told me the same thing about flying better to be on the ground wish you where on the sky then in the sky wishing to be on the ground
Agreed is my opinion that calling anything that can float "Unsinkable" is a dead sentence. An example of that will be the RMS TITANIC or the oil rig ocean ranger.
I was Cheif Officer on a tanker that was directly impacted by a rogue wave, 1-2 days after the tragedy of the Munchen. We were waiting to berth in the port of Limerick on the west coast of Ireland and were at anchor about 3 miles off the coast in fairly exposed waters. Just after I'd handed over the watch to the third officer at 2000 (8:00 pm) and gone down to my cabin to eat my dinner I heard the sound of water pouring down the internal staircase from the Captain's deck. I rushed out and saw a flood of water pouring down the stairs, at the other end of the alleyway, opposite my cabin, the second officer staggered out of his cabin, dripping wet. The deckhead (ceiling) in his cabin had collapsed under the weight of water and almost drowned him as he lay in his bed. We both rushed up the stairs against the flood of water to get to bridge. The Captain's deck was a scene of total mayhem.The hospital space, radio officer's cabin and chief steward's cabin were wrecked, but fortunately both the radio officer and chief steward were not in their rooms at the time. We went up the internal stairs to the bridge and found the third officer in a corner of the wheelhouse in shock, he'd been thrown against the bulkhead by the shock of a giant wave that had broken over the monkey island (highest deck, the roof of the bridge). He told us he'd seen something on the radar. A large blank area seemed to have developed, he thought a thunder storm was approaching and had gone outside to see if he could see anything. It was pitch black, very windy and lots of spray in the air. The blackness seemed to be growing and getting higher when suddenly it turned into a single breaking wave, taller than the ship's bridge which broke over the ship. This one wave tore the port lifeboat off the davit, ripped the double doors out of the hospital, smashed all the portholes down the port side and flooded the 2 cabins and brought the ceiling down on the 2nd officer. It tore out one of the doors into the wheelhouse, flooded the wheelhouse damaging one radar and the steering stand and gyro compass, in addition several aerials were torn out and thus made communication with authorities very difficult. We entered the river the next day, Limerick didn't have the facilities to make full repairs but they did what they could. After discharging our cargo we had a survey to verify sea worthiness and were cleared to sail across the Atlantic in our wounded state for permenant repairs in the dockyard in Curacao in the Netherlands Antilles. I have no doubt the wave that took the Munchen almost took another ship, the S.S Pallium and her crew of 40, but we were lucky.
What an incredible story. It must have been terrifying for the third officer, and he's one lucky man to be alive. To think that happened just offshore of Ireland and not out in the middle of the Atlantic somewhere. Thanks for sharing your story!
The London reinsurance company I worked for as a marine claims adjustor covered this ship's hull in1977/78, and I remember well the aftermath of her awful sinking. Amazingly, she had almost the same dimensions as HMS Hood, so she was a very large vessel overall. It made it very hard for me to believe at the time that a ship of this size could actually be overcome by heavy seas, but of course the power of nature is never to be underestimated.
Wow, that comparison certainly gives a real sense of scale to this story! I know a bit about big boats - I spent a few seasons working on Great Lakes freighters to help pay my way through school back in the 90's, and I've always had a fascination for maritime history, but as big as the Hood? That's a damn big ship! Then again, we sailed over the wrecks of a lot of damn big ships on the Lakes, most famously the Edmund Fitzgerald every time we passed through Whitefish Bay in Lake Superior, and every sailor knows that no matter how big your ship is, the wind and water are bigger.
The scale of the ocean, and the awesome power that it can unleash, are honestly difficult to imagine. A ship like this is basically a skyscraper lying on its side, in terms of scale. Still... Research done in the last decade discovered a phenomenon called a "super rogue" wave, stretching five times the significant wave height of the seas around it. In 50 foot seas, that would be a 250 foot wave. That wouldn't really be a wave in the traditional sense, of course. It would be a short-lived, near vertical wall of dark water and white foam, breaking almost immediately with thousands of tons of force. Waves like that have been seen in wave tanks, and are a natural consequence of the same physical laws as "normal" rogue waves. No unambiguous record of one has ever been reported in nature, but they almost certainly exist. No matter how large and stable a ship is, though, it almost certainly wouldn't survive to report *that* sort of thing.
Thank you for this. In the 1970s, my Dad worked for Hapag Lloyd, the shipping company that operated the Muünchen, and even though I was only five years old at the time, I clearly remember the search for the vessel and for survivors and the wondering what happened to her. My Dad attended the memorial service for the crew and passengers of the München. And the celebration of the launch of the new cruise liner MV Europa nine days after the München vanished was very muted with many of the women, including my Mom, electing to wear black for the launch dinner. I don't know if my Dad worked on designing the München - he is a naval architect - but it's possible. But he definitely knew some of those lost.
Thank you for sharing. I'm binging on sea tragedies, as the recovery mission of Titan continues. I think the carbon fiber hull imploded the moment communications failed, which is a better fate than slowly dying in freezing cold darkness. Interestingly, my mother worked for Sulzer Bros. in Manhattan in the 1970s. I still remember visiting their offices in the World Trade Center on 'bring your kids to work day'. Fast forward to 2001 and the WTC collapse - the vivid flashbacks I had of pressing my face and hands up against the window, wondering what it would feel like to fall to earth from that height. Sulzer had moved out of WTC long before the attacks, thankfully! I enjoyed your post! Stay safe and well, my friend! 😊💜
Halo Cora, sicherlich hat dein Vater nicht mit an der Entwicklung der München gearbeitet, denn dieses war ein Amerikanisches System, welches eigentlich für den Vietnamkrieg entwickelt wurde. Hapag Lloyd hatte nur die Pläne aus den USA übernommen, da man der Meinung war, es könnte ein lohnendes Geschäft werden. Damals war die Idee, Bulk oder Massengut könnte man in solchen Lash Carriers besser transportieren, als mit einem Container Schiff. Trotzdem, interessante Geschichte. Ich sollte ja auf der Reise auf der München sein, wurde kurz vor Auslaufen auf die Sachsenstein beordert, die in Oslo lag, ein Vollmatrose (mit Brief) fehlte, ich hatte meinen Brief bei mir.
I took a class in college in 1983 that discussed the phenomenon of rogue waves. Our professor said that while they weren't proven at that time, there was definitely reason to believe that they did indeed exist. Fascinating how our perspective changes over time.
I was on a ship 1000 miles off west coast Canada back in 1979. We were in a huge storm, 60-70 foot seas. We then go smacked by a 100 foot rogue wave. It did some damage but we managed. That was on board the HMCGS Quadra, a weathership. Rogues are very real, I survived one :)
Those poor souls aboard...I know it's not unique to this ship but I just can't imagine the feelings. Ship took a massive wave flooding, frying equipment left and right. Let's say the crew worked their best and power was brought back online but too much damage was sustained after the power loss, drifting helplessly starboard on into the storm. We don't know what happened but I do know those mariners fought like hell to keep her afloat. May they rest easy, and maybe by a stroke of luck...we will find their tomb and finally understand a little more.
Possibly lost the main plant like what happened to the El farro then turned sideways into the waves. Any power left was the emergancy generator. What caused the main plant to go down will likely never be known.
@@bobbyrayofthefamilysmith24 My educated guess would be flooding, due to a steep list caused by a rogue wave in a truly brutal storm. At least that's what all the clues seem to point to. But it's very true that we won't know for sure until someone finds her wreck, and even then, it may be impossible to figure out the direct cause.
@@neuralmute More likely than not in my opinion it probably had nothing to do with the actual water, but rather the force with which the wave struck the ship. Simply put, if ships are tossed about violently enough, they can lose power. An example of this is the Viking Sky, which lost power in 2019 after getting caught in a massive storm off Norway.
Why do people do that? Just trying to survive doesn't make you a hero for gods sake. People call even the most mundane and selfish acts "heroic" this guy was not a hero just an average guy trying not to die
@The Communist Doggo I called him a legend, not a hero. He stayed there not knowing if his messages were heard when he could have gone from his post. Probably wouldn't have saved his life either way
I am employed as a second officer on a supply vessel operating in the Norwegian sector of the North Sea. During the winter season, our vessel encountered a rogue wave directly on our starboard side. This unexpected wave was estimated to be at least 10 meters high and caused a significant shift in the cargo on deck. Despite being off duty and asleep at the time, I was forcefully thrown out of my bed due to the impact of the wave. Interestingly, the weather forecast had only predicted a maximum wave height of 3 meters.
Thank you for digging into the mystery of the MS Munchen. You added alot of detail that even the Horizon story on Rogue Waves didn't mention. Sadly, no one will know for sure until the wreck is located and examined. God rest the souls that were lost in this tragic event.
You're right about that... there were several theories back in the day, when rogue waves weren't considered. The most likely appeared to be the crane crashing full on into the bridge as the München dipped deep into a valley. Not disputing a rogue wave, but as you say: time will tell....
Might I suggest the MV Lucona for your next video. A year before the München sailed on her last voyage, the Lucona blew up and sank in the Indian Ocean, killing six of her twelve crew. The cause was a bomb planted on the orders of Udo Proksch, an Austrian businessman who used the ship as the means to carry out insurance fraud. An expedition led by David Mearns (who would later find Hood, Sydney, and Derbyshire) discovered Lucona’s remains in 14,000 feet of water in 1991-as well as proof of a bomb blast. Proksch was arrested, tried and found guilty. At first he was sentenced to 20 years imprisonment, but that was later increased to life. He died in 2001.
I was hoping for the Lancastria...my grandfather died on that ship. He was in the British army corps of engineers and his body washed up on shore. He is buried in Pornic Cemetery in France. His name was Julian Thomas.
@@juliemanarin4127 My respects to your grandfather. The tale of the Lancastria is so tragic and not nearly well known enough. If you haven't heard it already, you might want to check out the song "Nautical Disaster" by The Tragically Hip, where the sinking of the Lancastria is described as a memory overlaid on a difficult breakup. It's a beautiful, poetic tribute to a little known tragedy.
I was supposed to be on the München, but by chance got changed one day before her departure, to the MS Sachsenstein. I have my own thoughts about what might have happened and they differ from the official story. But that´s a pretty long story. I was on the München for three consequtive voyages.
@@that90skid72 Part two: I remember talking to one of the engineers once about this problem (I usually had the 20:00 to 24:00 hour watch, so I handed over to Alfred.). The reply of the engineer was, "the problem is known, but it is not a big worry and probably won´t be attended to in the dry docks, since Hapag Lloyd was thinking of selling the München in the near future, so why do repairs, when the problem would be over soon anyway?" On two of the voyages, we had an engine failure, both times around 3:30 AM. This was always on the watch of Alfred. Both times (and many other times) I had noticed the smell of whiskey in the breath of Alfred, so I believe he fell asleep. In fact two times I caught him sleepin on watch, because I thought I had forgotten to tell him something on the watch turnover. Both times, it was around 2:00 AM in the morning. So if he fell asleep around that time, the possibility of the suction pipes taking in water was huge. The sirens went off and everyone who had anything to do with the engine room, hurtled back to the engines, which were quite a distance away from the bow of the ship where the living quarters were. So, with an engine failure, both engines failed, since one tank fueled both engines. It took at least three minutes to jump out of bed, put on your overall and rush to the engine room. Once in the engine room, you had to dismantle the feeder piping that went to the cylinders, drain out the water, pre heat the clogged oil in the feeder piping, and use the "helpdeasels" (don´t know the english terminology for these) to build up compressed air to restart the engines. One of these times, I had the bridge watch also from 0:00 to 4:00. Maybe that was also one of the times when I caught Alfred sleeping, when I did my control rounds at app. 2:00 AM. Anyway, the process of cleaning the piping and building up enough compressed air would always take about 30 Minutes under good weather conditions. I remember the second time it happened, I had bridge watch and the captian was in great concern, since we had a minor storm and the ship was beginning to roll sidewase into the sea. The stabilizers didn´t work, since they needed the ships forward momentum, but on a ship that is not moving the stabilizers have no usage. So the ship would still make passage for about 15 minutes, more or less until the sheer wheight of the ship stopped it in mid ocean. We were already beginning to roll heavily sideways during this time, when the first engineer finally called the bridge and shouted, "we are starting the engines now". A big shudder went through the ship and you coud feel the propellers starting to move again. After only one or two minutes we were taking on speed again and we could steer the ship again.
@@that90skid72 Part three: Now, my thesis. I greatly beleived that this is what happend to the München. The time of the SOS call is exactly the times when I expierienced the two engine failures. Think of it, you are in heavy storms, the engine room whiper, is drunk, because he couldn´t stand the heavey storm. Falls asleep somewhere between 1:30 and 2:00 AM. The engines suck in water at app. 3:30 AM. With the heavey seas that were there at the time, the München quickly löses speed, cannot be steared since no forward movement, turns sidewase to the waves and a big wave with breakers (not a rogue wave) flips over the ship. Anyone who is still alive after the initial turnover is probably badly injured. The München takes on a lot of water, because of capsising, maybe it didn´t even right up again, but stayed keel up for a few minutes. Then because of the massive water implosion, sinks. This would naturally tear the life boats from their anchoring, and also open the security pins for the life rafts, which would automatically open under a certain amount of pressure, but by then it was too late. As I mentioned, we found one life raft, totally shredded by the sea six days later, but it was just a bunch of orange plasitc swimming in the sea, with waves up to still 10 to 12 meters high. No possible way to salvage the remains of the life raft. This is my story, on what I personally believe caused the sinking of the München. I was told to shut up, when I once mentioned it to an officer (First Mate from Hapag Lloyd) on a later date, since naturally it was a problem of insurance and the whole thing taking on larger dimensions if the authorities would have heard about the steam leakage in the supply tank, which was known for at least two years, but never fixed, because of cost managment. Any comments or questions are welcome
Oil was mentioned a few times covering flotsam. The Derbyshire which broke its back came to mind. The first thing mentioned in the enquiry was basically a get out clause of no fault , without evidence. I have an open mind as to what really happened. X AB.
You should do a video on the fire and sinking of the MS Prinsendam in 1980. Her engine room caught fire while in the Gulf of Alaska and she sank. Fortunately there were many ships and the coast guard nearby who raced to help, and as a result not a single life was lost. It’s still considered one the greatest sea rescues into history.
Brad, I just wanted to say thank you for everything that you do for us. I am 40 years old and I have researched Titanic and maritime history in general for the last 34 years of my life and I learn new things every day. Your efforts are very much appreciated.
well, when you got ravaged by both world wars, and need to build ships that can make good money and last awhile, in an age of planes? cargo ships are like the holy grail for that kind of stuff and makes sense for a post war Germany that couldn't really afford the lavish Super Liners of the past
Hapag Lloyd has a luxury cruise line. Look it up. They currently operate the Europa 1 and 2, and three luxury expedition ships, the Hanseatic Nature, Spirit, and Inspiration.
This was a fantastic and informative video, thank you! I remember the Munchen being covered briefly in a Horizon episode from the 90s about rogue waves and it has interested me since then, thank you for covering it here in so much detail. Your videos are always fascinating and I really appreciate the time, effort and research you must put in to them.
The first time I ever heard of the München was in a National Geographic documentary also about rogue waves, which as I understand was featured on the DVD for the 2006 Poseidon film. Unfortunately, it's no longer on UA-cam. The Horizon documentary is by far and away the greatest I've seen on rogue waves to date.
@@Zorromick Whatever the depth is they've found even deeper shipwrecks than that in the Pacific Ocean. Modern technology has come a long way in the last few decades, however I guess it's not considered of great enough importance to find the Munchen.
@@FreyFox87 Agreed, but that was a very big area, and the exact position isn´t really known. It could be narrowed down to probably several square sea miles, I would guess maybe 50 miles more or less from the positions where the containers were located and the life boat was found. We spoted one container and an inflatable life raft, which was completely mangeled. All this could have been carried away many miles through that storm. I would think the costs to search for the München would be horendous and in the end not important enough to justify the costs. Also there is a saying, "leave the sailors in Davy Jones locker at rest, do not disturb".
Retired merchant mariner of 27 years. When I miss the feel of a deck moving beneath me, I watch great sea stories like this. Yeah, My old bones will take warm and dry now thank you. An old saying; going to sea for a living is best for those wanderers with a bad memory. To keep doing it, you have to forget how bad the last voyage was.
Another very well done Documentary program. I love the way you put the pieces of the puzzling story together. You definitely do your homework. Thank you .
Ok, this I definitely had to drop everything for. It's about daggon time someone made a proper documentary about the München. It was really cool actually seeing her background and how she was built. Regardless of how well she or any ship was built to power through harsh weather conditions, however, taking on a storm that had been blowing over virtually the entire ocean since the previous month was honestly a stupid move. Sebastian Junger explained it brilliantly in his famous book, The Perfect Storm, about how basically the longer the wind blows over a large body of water, and the stronger it is, the more extreme the wave conditions will be. When you take into account other conditions too, like currents, the geography of the seabed - as a commenter on the BBC freak wave documentary said; apparently the site where the München was sailing is home to seismic activity - or even microbursts, it only gets even more dangerous. Additionally, I have a hard time seeing how the München could have been considered powerful enough to handle such conditions anyway: with only 26,000-something shp and a speed of only 18 knots, despite her great size, I would imagine that the lack of a lot of horsepower and a high top speed won't help in fighting through storms. Which is why one thing I'm extremely curious about is how well any of the great liners would have fared in this storm. QE2 especially, since she was obviously sailing at the time. I wonder where she was? Despite her terrible end, though, I would be remiss to not credit the ship for staying afloat for as long as she did in such conditions. She was a strong, well-built ship alright. It's a shame she was lost, and I'd love to find her someday. May her 28 brave crew rest in peace.
Hi Kaidhicksii; I was supposed to be on the München on that voyage, got changed to another ship, the MS Sachsenstein only a few hours before the München departed. About the München being powerful enough, is not really the point. Captain Dänekamp was known for "keeping on schedule". I was on the München exactly one year before, when we hit a Storm, not quite as severe just outside of the Bay of Biscay, (France - Spain). I had bridge watch 4 to 8. The first mate slowed down the ship so we wouldn´t damage the bridge. App. 6 Am, Captain Dänekamp came on the bridge, asked the first mate how our bearings were, then discovered we had lost app. 12 Sea Miles because of slowing down. The first thing he said to the first mate was "we have to be in Savanah on time, who gave you permission to slow down?" The first mate answered "we are taking hard blows and I fear we will get damaged, which will be more costly than coming in a half day later". With that Captian Dänekamp turned around and left the bridge again without another word. I personally believe that she lost power during the storm, then because of engine failure turned sidewase and rolled over. There was a failure in on of the bunking tanks, which could have caused water to get into the engine, thus choking it and coming to a halt. This happened on two of the voyages I was on. Always at night. 18 Knots, was really a good speed, considering the size and the type of construction of the München. In a storm it is imperative to head the stern into the waves at not to high speed, so that no damage is done. But at 18 or even 15 Knots, with those high waves it would surely get damage. In the Biscay Bay storm we went down to 12 Knots, which still was pretty scary. I came to the sight of the sinking app. four days later with the Sachsenstein, the waves even then were still app. 10 to 15 Meters high.
The thought that rogue waves were thought to be a myth up into my lifetime, and one was not recorded until well into my teens, is so strange to think about. It's similar to when I consider other scientific discoveries and accepted theories that are so accepted now but are so recent.
My guess is that most ships that encountered them didn't survive to tell the tale And those that did didn't have the ability to record or prove it till now... Now that we have ships big enough and storing enough to survive them And can show the damage and record the events for posterity It's easier to prove and taken more seriously when there's so many officers and sailors that now have seen, survived and can describe them.
Great video! Things can go very wrong very quickly at sea. I suggest you consider covering the loss of the “Texaco Oklahoma” which broke in half in a late winter storm off Cape Hatteras in 1971. I worked with one of the handful of survivors early in my seagoing career. Another horrific storm loss was the “Badger State” in 1970 while carrying bombs to Vietnam the cargo broke loose with bombs exploding internally causing the eventual sinking with great loss of life. One of the surviving seamen later sailed with me. I also became friends with one of the Greek sailers who actually plucked him from the sea.
Agree about Texaco Oklahoma, she was a tragic case and it's amazing anyone survived...."Marine Electric" from 1983 would be another nice episode; only 3 survivors out of more than 30 men ... my parents still remember the storm and we used to live quite close to the wreck site... Mom's friend was married to a ship officer who was IIRC in the same maritime union as the guys on "Marine Electric" and "Poet" (yet another lost ship). He always complained about bad maintenance/rusty ships. Pretty shameful behavior by Marine Transport Lines in that case!
I live near cape Hatteras and had never heard of the texaco Oklahoma, and I've always been fascinated with the graveyard of the Atlantic. Thanks for bringing it up!
there is something unique about your documentaries, bob. if i could describe it in two words: comforting and riveting. at the same time. very hard balance to strike and you're nailing it lately.
Having spent four winters Coast Guard service on the north Atlantic I can tell you that waves twice the "normal" height of 30 feet are common... third week of January 1967 on the 180 ft Evergreen encounted a week long storm. at one point encountered several SETS of three massive 80 foot waves repeatedly over an afternoon watch... The first wave was a Vertical wall of water broached the ship went over 68 degrees. solid water in the starboard bridge wing. We fell back upright on the backside of that wave...
Excellent presentation. I have no incident to suggest, since 95% of what I have learned of ocean disasters has come from you and from Oceanliner Designs but I could suggest that the two of you do a collaboration. :D
What's good about your vids is the backstory told before the main story of the video. OH, and your narration and attention to detail. Nice touch at the end with the memorial to the 28 lives lost at sea.
People tend not to care about freighter ships…to the common man they aren’t as glamorous, which means there isn’t gonna be a lot of investors interested in funding an expedition
They were SEVERAL search missions for the München, but all of them found nothing of her (except the one that found the lifeboat) So nothing more was ever found from her ..
i have a question, you mention the broadcast on a German radio station, East Germany or West Germany? IF the Munchen was talking about a Russian ship in the area it could be likely that the Russian ship relayed an SOS on that frequency as it was the only one they knew that could transmit that far, just a thought
Most likely it was West Germany it would be very weird that the Muchen would be on a East German frequency especially since obviously East Germany was a communist country so it’s more likely the Muchen was in a West German freq
You always do such a good job on your videos. I think it'd be cool if you did one on the USS Pittsburgh nicknamed the longest ship in the world after it encountered a small typhoon in 1945.
@@sstolt64 Yes. Her mainmast is in Arlington and her foremast is in Annapolis. That makes her the longest ship in the world at over 35 miles long. It does not matter where she sank.
In 1978 I was living with a merchant marine, first engineer. We were planning on marrying. (I married someone else with no hard feelings) I've never forgotten the story he told me when I asked if he were ever certain he would die at sea. In a storm in the N Atlantic the ship was bow into a heavy sea and making steerage weigh against hurricane force winds. He was deep below in the engine room where he felt less of the pitching than say the bow or bridge. He wasn't especially worried until the ship stopped as though it had hit a wall. He felt the bow dip and stay bow down; he said it felt like forever. He held his breath waiting for the bow to rise. Finally there was a groaning and straining through the whole ship. He pictured the bow being torn away. It wasn't. Mariners believed in rouge waves, known they are real since the first man survived seeing one in antiquity. I'll never cruise. Because of what I learned from him. That ship was a supertanker. I saw one empty and docked in SF. It gave me a whole new scale of reference for the men and women who go to sea. Bravery isn't the word for what they have. I don't know the word...thanks for thanking mariners. Our very lives depend on them.
This really shown the vastness of the sea. They couldn't find the shio even with an emergency beacon... No wonder why they can't find a 777 intentionally turned off all radio communicstions.
Having grown up in the 1970's, I can't imagine any "unsinkable" ships at that time. A word like that would have been deterring just like it is today. The gales of December 1978 were remarkable, as they occured much further south than usual, battering the main ship route between the continents with their full power, whereas that is usually happening near Greenland and Iceland. There were several "monsters of the month", following each other on that southern path like relayers. It was the prelude to the harshest winter in Europe I ever experienced.
33 hours is a long time to be afloat. The must have hoped rescue would have come and the weather eased. If they found the wreck we would probably better understand what happened.
I was the 2nd Mate on the British flagged bulk carrier M.V. Vancouver Trader. Did cross N.Atlantic trips during the winter of 1977/early 78. Stormy weather with large swells and heavy seas most of the time. The M.V. Munchen’s forward accommodation would not be ideal in such weather. That was the Achilles heel of an otherwise solidly built ship.
Great video and I believe true. I was an able seaman onboard the Booker Valiant in the same storm and remember the tragic event. The waves were massive and it took 10 days to reach the Azores instead of the normal 3.5 days. We rolled to 47 degrees and pitched constantly sleeping with your life jacket cramming you tight into your bed. We had no hope of altering course to help in any search as the seas were just to rough to get them onto the ships beam. RIP seafarers of the Munchen
Occasionally the MS Munchen or her sister ship the Bilderdyk would call into the port of New Orleans. Living south of New Orleans on the Mississippi River I was always impressed by this ship when it passed.
I spent nearly three months on board a container ship called Orient Ambassador in 1980; my Father was her Master, and I spent muy time on board, living in the Owner’s Suite, Obviously many ship oriented stories & maritime history was discussed during the time at sea & that in Mariner’s Clubs at diverse ports. One stand out quite clearly< as we all had the impression that ships approaching 40,000 tons appeared almost ‘unsinkable’,, there was the case one of similar ship to the Ambassador, which in a crossing of the Pacific Ocean, struck a huge wave, which smashed nearly every window, including the bridge, but also warped the superstructure on two decks below the bridge. The Second Officer was flung out of his bed; he found himself in about a foot of salt water - the storm sill keying it in his cabin. When he pulled his cabin door open, he went for the stairs leading to the bridge deck, only to be astounded by water cascading down the stairs. Thankfully, the ship had managed to keep al systems going and on reaching the bridge, he was able to assist in damage limitation. The Apparently, there was quite a.clean up operation & the ship was redirected to Japan where she was built, and was back at sea, after about four months in dry dock. Unfortunately, my Father was , in April that year, murdered on board the Oriental Ambassador, by pirates in Manilla Bay - scarcely thre weeks after I had seeped ashore. When people say worse things happen at sea’ believe me that do! My thoughts go out to toe crew and all those aboard the Munchen, and also to those who died in minutes without trace, aboard the MV Sevonshipre; who probably hit a freak wave in the Atlantic, not so long.ago.
The humanity and passion displayed by your presentations AND the amazing people whose stories you share and sow are glimpses of when I was a babe, blinded and enthralled by everyday people we will never fully know but dream the best for as when we did in our selves as a culture and Nation is humbling, inspiring and convicts my heart and spirit matey!! Steady On and Burn our Boats once Ashore- to ensure NO going back delusion takes root, only to Learn and share moving ahead.
You are so awesome. First the Waratah, now the Munchen! Thank you for the quality work you do! I just ask that you never, ever, touch the fictional Ourang Medan story. Dear God, it was debunked as fiction decades ago!! Sorry, it's a pieve. You do whatever you want, it'll be good.
Ive been obsessed with this ship's story for years. I was born in Savannah. When I go home to visit love to get down to the river front and imagine the München slipping in at night. Small world... I hope they find her.
I read that a Soviet submarine was near Munchen as she sank, and heard the breakup noises on their hydrophone.....maybe if the current Russian government is willing they could provide the exact position; that would be a big help finding the wreck.
A catastrophic break up in a ship that large must be absolutely terrifying. The physics involved in something that big being struck by a rogue wave and breaking apart are off the charts. No way a human body can survive. Unfortunately vessels were built based on the "linear model" which was based on a maximum wave height of 15 meters because rogue waves were not recognized as an actual phenomena, they were considered myths. It wasn't until the early 1990s that an actual rogue wave was confirmed. RIP Munchen crew, Semper Fidelis.
It was never that rogue waves were considered myth, but that the frequency at which they were being reported was exaggerated and thus rogue waves were not expected to be a genuine threat to shipping. Unfortunately, evening knowing better now, we still cannot design ships that can overcome nature's worst
Great video, facts and info always well covered on this channel, Any similar accidents in the Tasman Sea you can cover? Having personally experienced how powerful mother nature is these waters myself there must a video in there some where :) Cheers :)
I was on the bridge of our boat, the MV Hollybank, going East, the navigator was talking to the munchen, which was visible, and the navigator said that it was really rough for them. That was normal in a storm. We learned later that the ship had gone. Big waves, yes, and sometimes there are catastrophic failures too. The Devonshire for example.
@Big Old Boats, Good video, as always. As an additional piece of information: In the late 90s at least 2 predictive models were built from (1) quantum mechanics mathematics (the nonlinear Schrodinger Equations) and (2) Chaos Theory (non markovian processes). With the increasing usage of AI and ML based systems both solutions are helping predict when isolated rogues may occur. Still, these are complex and multivariate phenomena and that's all we can do: predict, to a fairly good/acceptable degree of certainty when something this anomalous may arise.
Somehow this story passed me by at the time, but what drew me to this video is that I have a set of Top Trumps playing cards from the 1970's on the theme of merchant ships, and one of the cards featured the Munchen, hence my recognition of the name. Curiously, another card in the set was of the Michelangelo.
I learned about the Munchen in my Highschool Engineering Class. The Teacher was in the Navy and took part in the search a d rescue attempt. He talked about "Rogue Waves" and how Sailors and Merchant Marines were always dismissed.
Excellent video. Really clearly explained and presented. Rogue waves are a terrifying phenomena and must be literally awesome to experience and survive. I feel sorry for all the sailors and passengers lost to these dangerous waves over time, especially as witnesses were dismissed as exaggerating. Anyway, I really enjoyed your videi!
I love the link between survivorship bias and the acceptance of rogue waves. before the 20th century most ships were not large enough to survive a rogue wave and therefore it wasn't included in the list of things to protect against. (not that they could have done much about it)
Thank you for watching! The story of the München was heavily requestioned and I hope I was able to do her crew justice. What should I cover next?
Estonia disaster next ?
Maybe the Oceanic ii?
Something that is interesting but not well covered on UA-cam are the shipwrecks found in the search for mh370
Thank you so much for covering the MS München, glad that one of the major ship channels covered it. Its sinking is kind of similar to the loss of the MV Derbyshire in 1980,
Maybe that could be a good idea for a future video, Great video as always, keep up the good work.
SS El Faro
As a retired merchant marine officer I always shared a little phrase stating that “I’d rather be in here wishin’ I was out there than out there wishin I was in here….”
I've done a bit of work on Great Lakes freighters, and I think everyone who's sailed through a storm or three knows that feeling well!
That is precisly why boating s so scary for me because nothing worse than wanting a warm bed and a good meal when your in a storm.
Similar phrase in aviation, better be on the ground wishing to be up there, rather than to be up there wishing to be on the ground
@@loanlepercq7023 That’s where I stole the phrase from. An old Gentleman Peanut Farmer/Pilot I met at a Waffle House somewhere in Georgia shared it with me about flying many years ago. God Bless Mr. John
When in flight school my instructor told me the same thing about flying better to be on the ground wish you where on the sky then in the sky wishing to be on the ground
The secret to keep ships from sinking is to never use the term “unsinkable” when talking about them.
And when they sink as "sinkable".
@@evvk8865 SS = sinkable ship…?
Agreed is my opinion that calling anything that can float "Unsinkable" is a dead sentence. An example of that will be the RMS TITANIC or the oil rig ocean ranger.
Nobody outside of the media has ever called a ship "unsinkable."
@@Reptilianmaster-1120
Titanic and Ocean Ranger were never called unsinkable by anyone who designed, built, or served on them.
I was Cheif Officer on a tanker that was directly impacted by a rogue wave, 1-2 days after the tragedy of the Munchen.
We were waiting to berth in the port of Limerick on the west coast of Ireland and were at anchor about 3 miles off the coast in fairly exposed waters. Just after I'd handed over the watch to the third officer at 2000 (8:00 pm) and gone down to my cabin to eat my dinner I heard the sound of water pouring down the internal staircase from the Captain's deck. I rushed out and saw a flood of water pouring down the stairs, at the other end of the alleyway, opposite my cabin, the second officer staggered out of his cabin, dripping wet. The deckhead (ceiling) in his cabin had collapsed under the weight of water and almost drowned him as he lay in his bed.
We both rushed up the stairs against the flood of water to get to bridge. The Captain's deck was a scene of total mayhem.The hospital space, radio officer's cabin and chief steward's cabin were wrecked, but fortunately both the radio officer and chief steward were not in their rooms at the time. We went up the internal stairs to the bridge and found the third officer in a corner of the wheelhouse in shock, he'd been thrown against the bulkhead by the shock of a giant wave that had broken over the monkey island (highest deck, the roof of the bridge).
He told us he'd seen something on the radar. A large blank area seemed to have developed, he thought a thunder storm was approaching and had gone outside to see if he could see anything. It was pitch black, very windy and lots of spray in the air. The blackness seemed to be growing and getting higher when suddenly it turned into a single breaking wave, taller than the ship's bridge which broke over the ship.
This one wave tore the port lifeboat off the davit, ripped the double doors out of the hospital, smashed all the portholes down the port side and flooded the 2 cabins and brought the ceiling down on the 2nd officer. It tore out one of the doors into the wheelhouse, flooded the wheelhouse damaging one radar and the steering stand and gyro compass, in addition several aerials were torn out and thus made communication with authorities very difficult.
We entered the river the next day, Limerick didn't have the facilities to make full repairs but they did what they could. After discharging our cargo we had a survey to verify sea worthiness and were cleared to sail across the Atlantic in our wounded state for permenant repairs in the dockyard in Curacao in the Netherlands Antilles.
I have no doubt the wave that took the Munchen almost took another ship, the S.S Pallium and her crew of 40, but we were lucky.
Awesome story sir. Thank you.
Wow! What a story! Thankful you made it out okay! ❤
😳
Abandon hope...
What an incredible story. It must have been terrifying for the third officer, and he's one lucky man to be alive. To think that happened just offshore of Ireland and not out in the middle of the Atlantic somewhere. Thanks for sharing your story!
The London reinsurance company I worked for as a marine claims adjustor covered this ship's hull in1977/78, and I remember well the aftermath of her awful sinking. Amazingly, she had almost the same dimensions as HMS Hood, so she was a very large vessel overall. It made it very hard for me to believe at the time that a ship of this size could actually be overcome by heavy seas, but of course the power of nature is never to be underestimated.
Wow, that comparison certainly gives a real sense of scale to this story! I know a bit about big boats - I spent a few seasons working on Great Lakes freighters to help pay my way through school back in the 90's, and I've always had a fascination for maritime history, but as big as the Hood? That's a damn big ship! Then again, we sailed over the wrecks of a lot of damn big ships on the Lakes, most famously the Edmund Fitzgerald every time we passed through Whitefish Bay in Lake Superior, and every sailor knows that no matter how big your ship is, the wind and water are bigger.
Yes, I was also involved with the hull claim for the Edmund Fitzgerald, and that was a large vessel as you say.@@neuralmute
The scale of the ocean, and the awesome power that it can unleash, are honestly difficult to imagine. A ship like this is basically a skyscraper lying on its side, in terms of scale. Still...
Research done in the last decade discovered a phenomenon called a "super rogue" wave, stretching five times the significant wave height of the seas around it. In 50 foot seas, that would be a 250 foot wave. That wouldn't really be a wave in the traditional sense, of course. It would be a short-lived, near vertical wall of dark water and white foam, breaking almost immediately with thousands of tons of force.
Waves like that have been seen in wave tanks, and are a natural consequence of the same physical laws as "normal" rogue waves. No unambiguous record of one has ever been reported in nature, but they almost certainly exist. No matter how large and stable a ship is, though, it almost certainly wouldn't survive to report *that* sort of thing.
@@NyanCatHerder what about dishonestly?
She also had quite similar dimensions to the Titanic.
The North Atlantic takes it personally when you say a vessel is “unsinkable”
The North Atlantic takes it personally when you say you're going to cross her in winter lol
Thank you for this. In the 1970s, my Dad worked for Hapag Lloyd, the shipping company that operated the Muünchen, and even though I was only five years old at the time, I clearly remember the search for the vessel and for survivors and the wondering what happened to her.
My Dad attended the memorial service for the crew and passengers of the München. And the celebration of the launch of the new cruise liner MV Europa nine days after the München vanished was very muted with many of the women, including my Mom, electing to wear black for the launch dinner.
I don't know if my Dad worked on designing the München - he is a naval architect - but it's possible. But he definitely knew some of those lost.
thank u for sharing
Thanks.
Thank you for sharing. I'm binging on sea tragedies, as the recovery mission of Titan continues. I think the carbon fiber hull imploded the moment communications failed, which is a better fate than slowly dying in freezing cold darkness.
Interestingly, my mother worked for Sulzer Bros. in Manhattan in the 1970s. I still remember visiting their offices in the World Trade Center on 'bring your kids to work day'. Fast forward to 2001 and the WTC collapse - the vivid flashbacks I had of pressing my face and hands up against the window, wondering what it would feel like to fall to earth from that height. Sulzer had moved out of WTC long before the attacks, thankfully!
I enjoyed your post! Stay safe and well, my friend! 😊💜
Halo Cora,
sicherlich hat dein Vater nicht mit an der Entwicklung der München gearbeitet, denn dieses war ein Amerikanisches System, welches eigentlich für den Vietnamkrieg entwickelt wurde. Hapag Lloyd hatte nur die Pläne aus den USA übernommen, da man der Meinung war, es könnte ein lohnendes Geschäft werden. Damals war die Idee, Bulk oder Massengut könnte man in solchen Lash Carriers besser transportieren, als mit einem Container Schiff.
Trotzdem, interessante Geschichte.
Ich sollte ja auf der Reise auf der München sein, wurde kurz vor Auslaufen auf die Sachsenstein beordert, die in Oslo lag, ein Vollmatrose (mit Brief) fehlte, ich hatte meinen Brief bei mir.
@@Zorromickentschuldige die Frage, aber was genau bedeutet "mit Brief"? Hat das was mit Ausweisdokumenten oder Einreisegenehmigungen zu tun?
I took a class in college in 1983 that discussed the phenomenon of rogue waves. Our professor said that while they weren't proven at that time, there was definitely reason to believe that they did indeed exist. Fascinating how our perspective changes over time.
I was on a ship 1000 miles off west coast Canada back in 1979. We were in a huge storm, 60-70 foot seas. We then go smacked by a 100 foot rogue wave. It did some damage but we managed. That was on board the HMCGS Quadra, a weathership. Rogues are very real, I survived one :)
Those poor souls aboard...I know it's not unique to this ship but I just can't imagine the feelings. Ship took a massive wave flooding, frying equipment left and right. Let's say the crew worked their best and power was brought back online but too much damage was sustained after the power loss, drifting helplessly starboard on into the storm. We don't know what happened but I do know those mariners fought like hell to keep her afloat. May they rest easy, and maybe by a stroke of luck...we will find their tomb and finally understand a little more.
Possibly lost the main plant like what happened to the El farro then turned sideways into the waves. Any power left was the emergancy generator. What caused the main plant to go down will likely never be known.
@@bobbyrayofthefamilysmith24 My educated guess would be flooding, due to a steep list caused by a rogue wave in a truly brutal storm. At least that's what all the clues seem to point to. But it's very true that we won't know for sure until someone finds her wreck, and even then, it may be impossible to figure out the direct cause.
Well said
@@bobbyrayofthefamilysmith24 It could be also the loss of lubrication, due to the heavy list. The same reason why El Faro probably sunk.
@@neuralmute More likely than not in my opinion it probably had nothing to do with the actual water, but rather the force with which the wave struck the ship. Simply put, if ships are tossed about violently enough, they can lose power. An example of this is the Viking Sky, which lost power in 2019 after getting caught in a massive storm off Norway.
The most detailed and informative presentation I've ever seen about the MS Munchen. Well done sir! Glad I found your channel. 👍
It must have been terrifying. That radio operator was a legend, staying at his post for so long 😢
Not much else to do. In those days the ship probably had open top lifeboats that couldn't be launched with a big list.
Why do people do that? Just trying to survive doesn't make you a hero for gods sake. People call even the most mundane and selfish acts "heroic" this guy was not a hero just an average guy trying not to die
@The Communist Doggo I called him a legend, not a hero. He stayed there not knowing if his messages were heard when he could have gone from his post. Probably wouldn't have saved his life either way
@@thejudgmentalcat No difference between the two in your context what he did was not even legendary it was simply normal
@@thecommunistdoggo1008 given the circumstances I think staying at his post likely transmitting to the end is at least worthy of note.
I am employed as a second officer on a supply vessel operating in the Norwegian sector of the North Sea. During the winter season, our vessel encountered a rogue wave directly on our starboard side. This unexpected wave was estimated to be at least 10 meters high and caused a significant shift in the cargo on deck. Despite being off duty and asleep at the time, I was forcefully thrown out of my bed due to the impact of the wave. Interestingly, the weather forecast had only predicted a maximum wave height of 3 meters.
Thank you for digging into the mystery of the MS Munchen. You added alot of detail that even the Horizon story on Rogue Waves didn't mention. Sadly, no one will know for sure until the wreck is located and examined. God rest the souls that were lost in this tragic event.
You're right about that... there were several theories back in the day, when rogue waves weren't considered. The most likely appeared to be the crane crashing full on into the bridge as the München dipped deep into a valley. Not disputing a rogue wave, but as you say: time will tell....
Might I suggest the MV Lucona for your next video. A year before the München sailed on her last voyage, the Lucona blew up and sank in the Indian Ocean, killing six of her twelve crew.
The cause was a bomb planted on the orders of Udo Proksch, an Austrian businessman who used the ship as the means to carry out insurance fraud. An expedition led by David Mearns (who would later find Hood, Sydney, and Derbyshire) discovered Lucona’s remains in 14,000 feet of water in 1991-as well as proof of a bomb blast. Proksch was arrested, tried and found guilty. At first he was sentenced to 20 years imprisonment, but that was later increased to life. He died in 2001.
I second this. Never heard of this incident before, but it sounds like a great topic for a future video.
I was hoping for the Lancastria...my grandfather died on that ship. He was in the British army corps of engineers and his body washed up on shore. He is buried in Pornic Cemetery in France. His name was Julian Thomas.
@@juliemanarin4127 My respects to your grandfather. The tale of the Lancastria is so tragic and not nearly well known enough. If you haven't heard it already, you might want to check out the song "Nautical Disaster" by The Tragically Hip, where the sinking of the Lancastria is described as a memory overlaid on a difficult breakup. It's a beautiful, poetic tribute to a little known tragedy.
@@juliemanarin4127 My condolences 🙏
I was supposed to be on the München, but by chance got changed one day before her departure, to the MS Sachsenstein. I have my own thoughts about what might have happened and they differ from the official story. But that´s a pretty long story. I was on the München for three consequtive voyages.
Tell us more about it ! What do you think happened ?
tell us your story please
@@that90skid72 Part two: I remember talking to one of the engineers once about this problem (I usually had the 20:00 to 24:00 hour watch, so I handed over to Alfred.). The reply of the engineer was, "the problem is known, but it is not a big worry and probably won´t be attended to in the dry docks, since Hapag Lloyd was thinking of selling the München in the near future, so why do repairs, when the problem would be over soon anyway?" On two of the voyages, we had an engine failure, both times around 3:30 AM. This was always on the watch of Alfred. Both times (and many other times) I had noticed the smell of whiskey in the breath of Alfred, so I believe he fell asleep. In fact two times I caught him sleepin on watch, because I thought I had forgotten to tell him something on the watch turnover. Both times, it was around 2:00 AM in the morning. So if he fell asleep around that time, the possibility of the suction pipes taking in water was huge. The sirens went off and everyone who had anything to do with the engine room, hurtled back to the engines, which were quite a distance away from the bow of the ship where the living quarters were. So, with an engine failure, both engines failed, since one tank fueled both engines. It took at least three minutes to jump out of bed, put on your overall and rush to the engine room. Once in the engine room, you had to dismantle the feeder piping that went to the cylinders, drain out the water, pre heat the clogged oil in the feeder piping, and use the "helpdeasels" (don´t know the english terminology for these) to build up compressed air to restart the engines. One of these times, I had the bridge watch also from 0:00 to 4:00. Maybe that was also one of the times when I caught Alfred sleeping, when I did my control rounds at app. 2:00 AM. Anyway, the process of cleaning the piping and building up enough compressed air would always take about 30 Minutes under good weather conditions. I remember the second time it happened, I had bridge watch and the captian was in great concern, since we had a minor storm and the ship was beginning to roll sidewase into the sea. The stabilizers didn´t work, since they needed the ships forward momentum, but on a ship that is not moving the stabilizers have no usage. So the ship would still make passage for about 15 minutes, more or less until the sheer wheight of the ship stopped it in mid ocean. We were already beginning to roll heavily sideways during this time, when the first engineer finally called the bridge and shouted, "we are starting the engines now". A big shudder went through the ship and you coud feel the propellers starting to move again. After only one or two minutes we were taking on speed again and we could steer the ship again.
@@that90skid72 Part three: Now, my thesis. I greatly beleived that this is what happend to the München. The time of the SOS call is exactly the times when I expierienced the two engine failures. Think of it, you are in heavy storms, the engine room whiper, is drunk, because he couldn´t stand the heavey storm. Falls asleep somewhere between 1:30 and 2:00 AM. The engines suck in water at app. 3:30 AM. With the heavey seas that were there at the time, the München quickly löses speed, cannot be steared since no forward movement, turns sidewase to the waves and a big wave with breakers (not a rogue wave) flips over the ship. Anyone who is still alive after the initial turnover is probably badly injured. The München takes on a lot of water, because of capsising, maybe it didn´t even right up again, but stayed keel up for a few minutes. Then because of the massive water implosion, sinks. This would naturally tear the life boats from their anchoring, and also open the security pins for the life rafts, which would automatically open under a certain amount of pressure, but by then it was too late. As I mentioned, we found one life raft, totally shredded by the sea six days later, but it was just a bunch of orange plasitc swimming in the sea, with waves up to still 10 to 12 meters high. No possible way to salvage the remains of the life raft. This is my story, on what I personally believe caused the sinking of the München. I was told to shut up, when I once mentioned it to an officer (First Mate from Hapag Lloyd) on a later date, since naturally it was a problem of insurance and the whole thing taking on larger dimensions if the authorities would have heard about the steam leakage in the supply tank, which was known for at least two years, but never fixed, because of cost managment. Any comments or questions are welcome
Oil was mentioned a few times covering flotsam. The Derbyshire which broke its back came to mind. The first thing mentioned in the enquiry was basically a get out clause of no fault , without evidence. I have an open mind as to what really happened. X AB.
You should do a video on the fire and sinking of the MS Prinsendam in 1980. Her engine room caught fire while in the Gulf of Alaska and she sank. Fortunately there were many ships and the coast guard nearby who raced to help, and as a result not a single life was lost. It’s still considered one the greatest sea rescues into history.
Brad, I just wanted to say thank you for everything that you do for us. I am 40 years old and I have researched Titanic and maritime history in general for the last 34 years of my life and I learn new things every day. Your efforts are very much appreciated.
I find it odd how both German lines gave up on Superliners and just built cargo ships and then merged together. Could this be a future topic?
well, when you got ravaged by both world wars, and need to build ships that can make good money and last awhile, in an age of planes? cargo ships are like the holy grail for that kind of stuff and makes sense for a post war Germany that couldn't really afford the lavish Super Liners of the past
Big liners were usually given mine subsidies. Once they evaporated, the were a lot harder to justify
They also have an expedition cruise line
Hapag Lloyd has a luxury cruise line. Look it up. They currently operate the Europa 1 and 2, and three luxury expedition ships, the Hanseatic Nature, Spirit, and Inspiration.
@@MiniCerberus991 agreed or either that or you make your current fleet of ocean liners into cruise ships like how Cunard did with the Mauritania
This was a fantastic and informative video, thank you! I remember the Munchen being covered briefly in a Horizon episode from the 90s about rogue waves and it has interested me since then, thank you for covering it here in so much detail. Your videos are always fascinating and I really appreciate the time, effort and research you must put in to them.
The first time I ever heard of the München was in a National Geographic documentary also about rogue waves, which as I understand was featured on the DVD for the 2006 Poseidon film. Unfortunately, it's no longer on UA-cam. The Horizon documentary is by far and away the greatest I've seen on rogue waves to date.
What a beautiful looking ship. Love her lines and the forward accommodation.
One of the shipwrecks I’ve most been fascinated by, not least that they wreck is still undiscovered.
I'd love for someone to set an expedition to find the Munchen, if only to solve the mystery.
@@neuralmute yea im sure you'd love that. but will u sacrifice to make it happen? no. so why are you 'loving' it then?
It´s app. 5 miles deep in the ocean where the München sank, no chance of ever finding it.
@@Zorromick Whatever the depth is they've found even deeper shipwrecks than that in the Pacific Ocean. Modern technology has come a long way in the last few decades, however I guess it's not considered of great enough importance to find the Munchen.
@@FreyFox87 Agreed, but that was a very big area, and the exact position isn´t really known. It could be narrowed down to probably several square sea miles, I would guess maybe 50 miles more or less from the positions where the containers were located and the life boat was found. We spoted one container and an inflatable life raft, which was completely mangeled. All this could have been carried away many miles through that storm. I would think the costs to search for the München would be horendous and in the end not important enough to justify the costs. Also there is a saying, "leave the sailors in Davy Jones locker at rest, do not disturb".
Just keep doing what you're doing mate, one of the best maritime channels on UA-cam
Retired merchant mariner of 27 years. When I miss the feel of a deck moving beneath me, I watch great sea stories like this. Yeah, My old bones will take warm and dry now thank you. An old saying; going to sea for a living is best for those wanderers with a bad memory. To keep doing it, you have to forget how bad the last voyage was.
Oh, wow, he did it! He followed through and did what the comments on the Lusitania vid asked!!! So cool! Thanks, BOB, we love you!
I want the Lancastria since my gdied on that ship!
Another very well done Documentary program. I love the way you put the pieces of the puzzling story together. You definitely do your homework. Thank you .
"considered unsinkable" is the ship variant of when a character in a war movie says "I can't wait to finally go back home and marry my girl!"
Ok, this I definitely had to drop everything for. It's about daggon time someone made a proper documentary about the München. It was really cool actually seeing her background and how she was built. Regardless of how well she or any ship was built to power through harsh weather conditions, however, taking on a storm that had been blowing over virtually the entire ocean since the previous month was honestly a stupid move.
Sebastian Junger explained it brilliantly in his famous book, The Perfect Storm, about how basically the longer the wind blows over a large body of water, and the stronger it is, the more extreme the wave conditions will be. When you take into account other conditions too, like currents, the geography of the seabed - as a commenter on the BBC freak wave documentary said; apparently the site where the München was sailing is home to seismic activity - or even microbursts, it only gets even more dangerous.
Additionally, I have a hard time seeing how the München could have been considered powerful enough to handle such conditions anyway: with only 26,000-something shp and a speed of only 18 knots, despite her great size, I would imagine that the lack of a lot of horsepower and a high top speed won't help in fighting through storms. Which is why one thing I'm extremely curious about is how well any of the great liners would have fared in this storm. QE2 especially, since she was obviously sailing at the time. I wonder where she was?
Despite her terrible end, though, I would be remiss to not credit the ship for staying afloat for as long as she did in such conditions. She was a strong, well-built ship alright. It's a shame she was lost, and I'd love to find her someday. May her 28 brave crew rest in peace.
Hi Kaidhicksii;
I was supposed to be on the München on that voyage, got changed to another ship, the MS Sachsenstein only a few hours before the München departed.
About the München being powerful enough, is not really the point. Captain Dänekamp was known for "keeping on schedule". I was on the München exactly one year before, when we hit a Storm, not quite as severe just outside of the Bay of Biscay, (France - Spain). I had bridge watch 4 to 8. The first mate slowed down the ship so we wouldn´t damage the bridge. App. 6 Am, Captain Dänekamp came on the bridge, asked the first mate how our bearings were, then discovered we had lost app. 12 Sea Miles because of slowing down. The first thing he said to the first mate was "we have to be in Savanah on time, who gave you permission to slow down?" The first mate answered "we are taking hard blows and I fear we will get damaged, which will be more costly than coming in a half day later". With that Captian Dänekamp turned around and left the bridge again without another word.
I personally believe that she lost power during the storm, then because of engine failure turned sidewase and rolled over. There was a failure in on of the bunking tanks, which could have caused water to get into the engine, thus choking it and coming to a halt. This happened on two of the voyages I was on. Always at night.
18 Knots, was really a good speed, considering the size and the type of construction of the München.
In a storm it is imperative to head the stern into the waves at not to high speed, so that no damage is done. But at 18 or even 15 Knots, with those high waves it would surely get damage. In the Biscay Bay storm we went down to 12 Knots, which still was pretty scary.
I came to the sight of the sinking app. four days later with the Sachsenstein, the waves even then were still app. 10 to 15 Meters high.
The thought that rogue waves were thought to be a myth up into my lifetime, and one was not recorded until well into my teens, is so strange to think about. It's similar to when I consider other scientific discoveries and accepted theories that are so accepted now but are so recent.
My guess is that most ships that encountered them didn't survive to tell the tale
And those that did didn't have the ability to record or prove it till now...
Now that we have ships big enough and storing enough to survive them
And can show the damage and record the events for posterity
It's easier to prove and taken more seriously when there's so many officers and sailors that now have seen, survived and can describe them.
Great video! Things can go very wrong very quickly at sea. I suggest you consider covering the loss of the “Texaco Oklahoma” which broke in half in a late winter storm off Cape Hatteras in 1971. I worked with one of the handful of survivors early in my seagoing career.
Another horrific storm loss was the “Badger State” in 1970 while carrying bombs to Vietnam the cargo broke loose with bombs exploding internally causing the eventual sinking with great loss of life. One of the surviving seamen later sailed with me. I also became friends with one of the Greek sailers who actually plucked him from the sea.
Agree about Texaco Oklahoma, she was a tragic case and it's amazing anyone survived...."Marine Electric" from 1983 would be another nice episode; only 3 survivors out of more than 30 men ... my parents still remember the storm and we used to live quite close to the wreck site... Mom's friend was married to a ship officer who was IIRC in the same maritime union as the guys on "Marine Electric" and "Poet" (yet another lost ship). He always complained about bad maintenance/rusty ships. Pretty shameful behavior by Marine Transport Lines in that case!
I live near cape Hatteras and had never heard of the texaco Oklahoma, and I've always been fascinated with the graveyard of the Atlantic. Thanks for bringing it up!
Thank you for the interesting and respectful documentary
He always does a wonderful job
there is something unique about your documentaries, bob. if i could describe it in two words: comforting and riveting. at the same time. very hard balance to strike and you're nailing it lately.
Hurray new video!
Perfect way to start my work day!! New BoB video!❤🎉
Excellent video!
They all are
My father who was a seaman often said; The sea is a beautiful lover, but a cruel mistress.
Having spent four winters Coast Guard service on the north Atlantic I can tell you that waves twice the "normal" height of 30 feet are common... third week of January 1967 on the 180 ft Evergreen encounted a week long storm. at one point encountered several SETS of three massive 80 foot waves repeatedly over an afternoon watch... The first wave was a Vertical wall of water broached the ship went over 68 degrees. solid water in the starboard bridge wing. We fell back upright on the backside of that wave...
People REALLY need to stop describing ships as 'Unsinkable'. Mother Nature is taking it as a challenge...
I have heard the story of this ship like a day ago and now a video about it amazing!
Excellent presentation.
I have no incident to suggest, since 95% of what I have learned of ocean disasters has come from you and from Oceanliner Designs but I could suggest that the two of you do a collaboration. :D
Sad story, but an extremely well told story. You do the crew justice in my opinion, love your content. Thanks
What's good about your vids is the backstory told before the main story of the video.
OH, and your narration and attention to detail. Nice touch at the end with the memorial to the 28 lives lost at sea.
Because of the nature of its sinking, I am surprised no one has mounted a search mission for this ship.
People tend not to care about freighter ships…to the common man they aren’t as glamorous, which means there isn’t gonna be a lot of investors interested in funding an expedition
They were SEVERAL search missions for the München, but all of them found nothing of her (except the one that found the lifeboat)
So nothing more was ever found from her ..
Another superb video, bravo once again.
I’ve waited so long for someone to do a video on this. The ocean gods have come through
Excellent work. Very well done. Thanks for sharing.
i have a question, you mention the broadcast on a German radio station, East Germany or West Germany? IF the Munchen was talking about a Russian ship in the area it could be likely that the Russian ship relayed an SOS on that frequency as it was the only one they knew that could transmit that far, just a thought
Most likely it was West Germany it would be very weird that the Muchen would be on a East German frequency especially since obviously East Germany was a communist country so it’s more likely the Muchen was in a West German freq
@@Arandohistorian202 but I'm saying if the Russian ship relayed the sos they most likely would have done it on an East German frequency
@@lonewolf4215 unless there’s a like international frequency that the muchen and the Russian ship could have been on to that’s a possibility
@@Arandohistorian202 you would think there would be an international distress frequency that all ships planes etc monitor.
@@juliemanarin4127 there is, in aviation its 121.5 Aircraft will usually keep a listening watch on it as will various ground stations.
Nice tribute to all merchant mariners at the end. Thank you.
You always do such a good job on your videos. I think it'd be cool if you did one on the USS Pittsburgh nicknamed the longest ship in the world after it encountered a small typhoon in 1945.
No, that would be USS Maine. Her foremast is in Arlington and her mainmast is in Annapolis.
@J.M. Mimiaga The USS Main was sunk in Havana harbor in 1889, it's her main mast that is in Arlington
@@sstolt64
Yes. Her mainmast is in Arlington and her foremast is in Annapolis. That makes her the longest ship in the world at over 35 miles long. It does not matter where she sank.
Thank you very much! I always wanted to know more abut this story and as always you did an AMAZING job here!
Note to self- never ever step foot on a "unsinkable" or "almost unsinkable" ship.
In 1978 I was living with a merchant marine, first engineer. We were planning on marrying. (I married someone else with no hard feelings)
I've never forgotten the story he told me when I asked if he were ever certain he would die at sea. In a storm in the N Atlantic the ship was bow into a heavy sea and making steerage weigh against hurricane force winds. He was deep below in the engine room where he felt less of the pitching than say the bow or bridge. He wasn't especially worried until the ship stopped as though it had hit a wall. He felt the bow dip and stay bow down; he said it felt like forever. He held his breath waiting for the bow to rise. Finally there was a groaning and straining through the whole ship. He pictured the bow being torn away. It wasn't.
Mariners believed in rouge waves, known they are real since the first man survived seeing one in antiquity.
I'll never cruise. Because of what I learned from him. That ship was a supertanker. I saw one empty and docked in SF. It gave me a whole new scale of reference for the men and women who go to sea.
Bravery isn't the word for what they have. I don't know the word...thanks for thanking mariners. Our very lives depend on them.
It would really suck being out in the middle of the ocean on a ship watching a 90 ft wave coming at you knowing you cannot outrun it or escape it.
I know right?
I would stand at the front of the bow like Jack Dawson did in the Titanic movie flipping the wave off calling it a 🐱.
I love this channel! Thank you for these stories.
Wonderful documentary! Thank you for presenting it to us.
Worked for Hapag at the time always remember desk calander showed photo of the Muchen
I have heard so little about this massive ship going down, but its incredible to me, still.
Thank for covering this one!
This really shown the vastness of the sea. They couldn't find the shio even with an emergency beacon... No wonder why they can't find a 777 intentionally turned off all radio communicstions.
Having grown up in the 1970's, I can't imagine any "unsinkable" ships at that time. A word like that would have been deterring just like it is today.
The gales of December 1978 were remarkable, as they occured much further south than usual, battering the main ship route between the continents with their full power, whereas that is usually happening near Greenland and Iceland. There were several "monsters of the month", following each other on that southern path like relayers. It was the prelude to the harshest winter in Europe I ever experienced.
What a horror story! Trapped on a unpowered heavily listing & sinking ship in rough seas! 😬
🙏Rip to all the Crew lost that day😞🥀
Thanks for covering this. I really enjoy your content.
33 hours is a long time to be afloat. The must have hoped rescue would have come and the weather eased. If they found the wreck we would probably better understand what happened.
New subscriber here, all I can say is WOW what a show, hope to see more like this, please keep up the good work !!
Yeah he does a fabulous job!
"She was considered practically unsinkable" I guess we all know at this point that's like a bad omen
Yeah, nobody thought she was unsinkable. At least nobody outside of the media.
That is selection bias. A lot of ships are considered unsinkable at the start of their careers. It is only interesting for those ships that sunk.
I was the 2nd Mate on the British flagged bulk carrier M.V. Vancouver Trader. Did cross N.Atlantic trips during the winter of 1977/early 78. Stormy weather with large swells and heavy seas most of the time. The M.V. Munchen’s forward accommodation would not be ideal in such weather. That was the Achilles heel of an otherwise solidly built ship.
Excellent research and narration👍Many thanks.
Great video and I believe true. I was an able seaman onboard the Booker Valiant in the same storm and remember the tragic event. The waves were massive and it took 10 days to reach the Azores instead of the normal 3.5 days. We rolled to 47 degrees and pitched constantly sleeping with your life jacket cramming you tight into your bed. We had no hope of altering course to help in any search as the seas were just to rough to get them onto the ships beam. RIP seafarers of the Munchen
I never heared of this ship. Good job.
Nor had I
Occasionally the MS Munchen or her sister ship the Bilderdyk would call into the port of New Orleans. Living south of New Orleans on the Mississippi River I was always impressed by this ship when it passed.
I do so enjoy your videos... today a rainy Sunday morning here in the hills of Japan with coffee in hand.
Thanks and regards as always,
So tragic! Great video. I do try to be nice to people but the reminder certainly can't hurt! 😊 thank you.
I spent nearly three months on board a container ship called Orient Ambassador in 1980; my Father was her Master, and I spent muy time on board, living in the Owner’s Suite, Obviously many ship oriented stories & maritime history was discussed during the time at sea & that in Mariner’s Clubs at diverse ports. One stand out quite clearly< as we all had the impression that ships approaching 40,000 tons appeared almost ‘unsinkable’,, there was the case one of similar ship to the Ambassador, which in a crossing of the Pacific Ocean, struck a huge wave, which smashed nearly every window, including the bridge, but also warped the superstructure on two decks below the bridge. The Second Officer was flung out of his bed; he found himself in about a foot of salt water - the storm sill keying it in his cabin. When he pulled his cabin door open, he went for the stairs leading to the bridge deck, only to be astounded by water cascading down the stairs. Thankfully, the ship had managed to keep al systems going and on reaching the bridge, he was able to assist in damage limitation. The Apparently, there was quite a.clean up operation & the ship was redirected to Japan where she was built, and was back at sea, after about four months in dry dock.
Unfortunately, my Father was , in April that year, murdered on board the Oriental Ambassador, by pirates in Manilla Bay - scarcely thre weeks after I had seeped ashore. When people say worse things happen at sea’ believe me that do! My thoughts go out to toe crew and all those aboard the Munchen, and also to those who died in minutes without trace, aboard the MV Sevonshipre; who probably hit a freak wave in the Atlantic, not so long.ago.
Wow what a story! Write a book!
There was a story that a large bulk carrier and five like it had a weak weld which cracked and left the ship in two parts.
Sorry to hear about your pops.
The humanity and passion displayed by your presentations AND the amazing people whose stories you share and sow are glimpses of when I was a babe, blinded and enthralled by everyday people we will never fully know but dream the best for as when we did in our selves as a culture and Nation is humbling, inspiring and convicts my heart and spirit matey!! Steady On and Burn our Boats once Ashore-
to ensure NO going back delusion takes root, only to Learn and share moving ahead.
You are so awesome. First the Waratah, now the Munchen! Thank you for the quality work you do! I just ask that you never, ever, touch the fictional Ourang Medan story. Dear God, it was debunked as fiction decades ago!! Sorry, it's a pieve. You do whatever you want, it'll be good.
I second that request
Request thirded.
Very well researched, thanks for sharing
Ive been obsessed with this ship's story for years. I was born in Savannah. When I go home to visit love to get down to the river front and imagine the München slipping in at night.
Small world... I hope they find her.
I read that a Soviet submarine was near Munchen as she sank, and heard the breakup noises on their hydrophone.....maybe if the current Russian government is willing they could provide the exact position; that would be a big help finding the wreck.
Nicely done.
Calling a ship unsinkables a surefire way to make sure something happens to it
A catastrophic break up in a ship that large must be absolutely terrifying. The physics involved in something that big being struck by a rogue wave and breaking apart are off the charts. No way a human body can survive. Unfortunately vessels were built based on the "linear model" which was based on a maximum wave height of 15 meters because rogue waves were not recognized as an actual phenomena, they were considered myths. It wasn't until the early 1990s that an actual rogue wave was confirmed. RIP Munchen crew, Semper Fidelis.
It was never that rogue waves were considered myth, but that the frequency at which they were being reported was exaggerated and thus rogue waves were not expected to be a genuine threat to shipping.
Unfortunately, evening knowing better now, we still cannot design ships that can overcome nature's worst
Great video, facts and info always well covered on this channel, Any similar accidents in the Tasman Sea you can cover? Having personally experienced how powerful mother nature is these waters myself there must a video in there some where :) Cheers :)
Thank you for another great story.
I was on the bridge of our boat, the MV Hollybank, going East, the navigator was talking to the munchen, which was visible, and the navigator said that it was really rough for them. That was normal in a storm. We learned later that the ship had gone.
Big waves, yes, and sometimes there are catastrophic failures too. The Devonshire for example.
Scary.
@Big Old Boats,
Good video, as always.
As an additional piece of information:
In the late 90s at least 2 predictive models were built from (1) quantum mechanics mathematics (the nonlinear Schrodinger Equations) and (2) Chaos Theory (non markovian processes).
With the increasing usage of AI and ML based systems both solutions are helping predict when isolated rogues may occur.
Still, these are complex and multivariate phenomena and that's all we can do: predict, to a fairly good/acceptable degree of certainty when something this anomalous may arise.
Great documentary - really well done!
Good video never heard of the MS Munchen before a sad and chilling story the ocean can be very dangerous and unforgiving sometimes
i will love to hear more stories about ships vs big waves and how they sinks
Somehow this story passed me by at the time, but what drew me to this video is that I have a set of Top Trumps playing cards from the 1970's on the theme of merchant ships, and one of the cards featured the Munchen, hence my recognition of the name. Curiously, another card in the set was of the Michelangelo.
I learned about the Munchen in my Highschool Engineering Class. The Teacher was in the Navy and took part in the search a d rescue attempt.
He talked about "Rogue Waves" and how Sailors and Merchant Marines were always dismissed.
Your videos are great.
Great video
Excellent video. Really clearly explained and presented. Rogue waves are a terrifying phenomena and must be literally awesome to experience and survive. I feel sorry for all the sailors and passengers lost to these dangerous waves over time, especially as witnesses were dismissed as exaggerating. Anyway, I really enjoyed your videi!
I was working for the Liverpool agent for this vessel, when she was lost. I'll never forget it.
Would love to hear you do a story on the Lucona, the aftermath and her discovery
God! That was tough man , defo rogue wave .RIP .
Sweet juicy boat content!
One of my favourite cargo ships, a very pretty vessel.
I've no idea why these accounts are so fascinating, but indeed they are. Well done, of course, superbly! but also inherently interesting.
Cool! A Big Old Boats vid and I don't have to work tomorrow!!
I love the link between survivorship bias and the acceptance of rogue waves. before the 20th century most ships were not large enough to survive a rogue wave and therefore it wasn't included in the list of things to protect against. (not that they could have done much about it)