Challenging stuff. I hate when I think I'm grooving in 7, start a fill, and immediately my brain reverts to 4, causing me to lose the 1. Having a bass grooving in the odd time helps though.
@MomoTheBellyDancer Exactly, but the bass player often has a longer time scale that is distinct for a full bar. Money by Pink FLoyd comes to mind. It's easy to play that because the bass line is so memorable. Similarly, the singer helps keep you track of the very long time scale, when changes are coming, etc. Without the singer, some song would require you just to count bars in your head.
@MomoTheBellyDancer on your first comment i thought you were joking....it was funny....but reading through i realize you were NOT joking... your logic and reasoning, is deadly accurate here.....like a good lawyer.. ..im just learning to play drums enough to multitrack on my original songs, and i have a taste for odd meters, but this is above MY payscale..... (im a guitarist mainly.... ) ...i figure, just like when i learned guitar, a 'little' Jazz background will put me way ahead of the pack.... so this is a good lesson for me.... I DO believe that learning to play "Money' will be good for me, cos i like Nick Mason......and his style.....and it isnt in just 4/4.... and its impressive that the song was SUCH a big hit....it kinda snuck under the radar into the public consciousness.... I sure wont be learning any Mahavishnu stuff, because im more into Ringo, and Levon, and Keltner these days....(it suits my songwriting style ) but i think this is one of 80/20s best lessons...and im here to learn. Thanks for your input....Sir..... ;-)
Your drum face has an I-just-woke-up-at-the-dentist-and-my-mouth-is-completely-numb vibe to it. I'm a fan. And though I'm a total drumming noob (coming from some popular stringed instruments) your videos are really bringing into focus the way I want to play.
Your demonstration of playing over the bar line both in straight and odd time was perhaps the best demo of anything you've done on your channel. And it also reminds me that I really need to bone up my practice routine....
Odd meters, where would we be without 'em! A great way to be challenging, and add excitement to the mix!! Thanks again Nate for this invaluable insight dude, stay cool!!!
My advice would be to treat those as individual grooves you gotta learn. 3+4 and 4+3 are both very common in east european music, they have really different feels to them and both require some getting used to. 2+3+2 is unheard of though, as far as any traditional music I've ever studied or heard.
You can count 7, knowing how you structure it. In Kumi na moja, Simon Phillips plays 11/8. First part of the piece, he plays 5/4 + one eight (or 4/4 + 3/8), in the bridge he plays 12/8 minus one eight. Of course, Simon doesn't need to count. But some of us do.
I find that learning even the basics of konnakol has helped me tremendously with odd time stuff. Indian music is linear and has no harmony, only melody and rhythm, so their focus on rhythm is way more advanced, as well as how they see and feel rhythm. Even polymetric and polyrithmic stuff starts becoming easier to understand. Even if you just use the bols to speak rhythms and don't make use of kaidas, tihais and so on.
If you say the full word, you're actually adding extra duration to the last beat. The faster your tempo is, the more time you're adding to the last beat. Eleven is worse, as it adds one triplet to the end of the beat if you say the full word.
I'm Greek and when I count from 1 to 4 everything has 2 syllables except 4 that has 3, tessera.. That's tes se ra, so what I did because it confused me was to cut the se, so it became te ra if you know what I mean
I been struggling to find an easier way to get odd meters over the bar line. This may be what I’ve been looking for. I’ve learned that you helping me learn helps my students learn. Thank you
This is exactly what gavin harrison talks about when he talks about using regular subdivision pulse to keep the listener grounded while playing any odd time signature. 1/4 note pulse over 7/8 , it goes even odd even second bar , by playing 1 1/4 note pulse over 5/8 your creating a common anchor point . that everything else can revolve around !! Its great practice. I awlays had issues hearing two bar phases of 5/8 in my head , when I stopped listening that way. I started to come together.
I essentialy started out with odd time signatures (often, well into the upper-teens), completely unaware that it was, in any way, 'advanced'. On the contrary, I had a bad case of 'imposter syndrome' because of it. Eventually, I would learn to 'count' my natural oscillations. But I never got over the imposter syndrome... and was easily impressed to see someone just playing a simple 4/4 rhythm ('Why can't I sound disciplined and 'real' like that?'). But it's significant that I NEVER COUNTED until much later (that's why I am able to 'feel' odd meters to this day).
I always just listened to and played along with Bulgarian folk music and also practiced 4 over 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, & 13 to a click and vice versa 3 over 4 etc. Thanks for the video👍
@@nicolechacon7323 Oh, good idea, I can use the trei -ze. Now, problems start at 17 ! But I'm not often confronted with this. My fellow musicians don't allow me to write arrangements in odd time signatures, as they think my arrangements in four are already pains in the ass (I'm a big fan of cuban music, obviously they are not).
You can play in 4/4 so effortlessly because you've internalized 4/4 meter. You have to do that with every other meter as well, internalize it. Learn to play 200 songs in 7/8 and you'll be fine in 7/8. Jmho
Alternative description: Step 1: don't know odd meter Step 2: listen to King Gizzard a bunch Step 3: ??? Step 4: You've internalized odd meter This is really it. Anything you can practice will end up being learned, and odd meter isn't even particularly difficult with a bit of investment. Polyrhythms... now those can be hard on a level that requires much more prior engagement. Still, everything is possible.
Bill Peart Right. It's all anectodal. I grew up mostly playing to songs in 6 (not a conscious effort at the time, it just so happened a lot of bands I like write songs in 6). When I tried holding down a basic 4/4 groove it was actually awkward for me for about a week.
Great insight! Thank you and I’ll try it first thing in the morning.I’ll let you know how it went, although only the last minute it makes sense to me, maybe because I’ve understood only that by now. It is going to keep me busy for some time. I was always supposing how Donati is thinking it, and I guess it should be this way, only more simplified for us mortals.
This is where marching-style grids really come in handy. Just playing it on a pad helps train your ear hear where the downbeat falls against odd groupings, whether in odd meter or not. Grids = help you play over the bar.
I am fortunate to have played in the fusion years.. odd times are fairly natural to us old goats.. Hey what were the names of the three jazz drummers you mentioned? I could not quite make them out thanks :)
Bill - Marcus Gilmore plays drums with the Vijay Iyer Trio. Gilad Hekselman is a jazz guitarist. I think he's played with a variety of drummers but Ari Hoenig, Eric Harland, and Jeff Ballard come to mind. Tigran Hamasyan is a pianist. I'm not as familiar with his music and am not sure which drummers he's worked with. Cheers!
@@philipthoennes4546 Thank you a bit late lol.. Love your videos.. both the knowledge as well as the humor.. Young drummers don't know how good they have it today regarding the internet.. I had a radio 😉🥁
I love them, and I had little normal bars in my life. However I know the jail. I overcome a new challenge by splitting beats into triples, and a rest, keeping in mind where the 1 is. Over time I get the feeling and then I can play without loosing it.
We are used to a lot of rythmic patterns in 4/4, but when it comes to odd time signatures, we have a choice between a neutral counting, or a specific pattern. In his method Contemporary drummer + 1, for the tune Island magic, Dave Weckl explains he counts 1 2 3 & (two quarters two pointed eights). It's a clave in 7/8. Very difficult. You can play salsa singing the son clave, or the rumba clave, but how are we supposed to sing a specific clave on any tune in 11 or 15 ? I chose the neutral counting, that allows me to put the accents where I want and feel a particular pattern without being stuck to it. In "19 days", Gavin Harrison counts 7 7 5. Piece of cake.... till the music comes in !
I find many of your videos interesting to watch and listen to and some instructional, but I didn't find this one helpful. In fact, when you got to the "2 bar phrases over 5" bit around 6:00 and I started ignoring the count on screen and instead started my own count, I found them to be just basic 4/4 (with the snare on 1) and the 5/4 might have been happening underneath, but there was no sense of that pulse. In effect, I didn't find these to have a 5/4 feel at all, and if there were accompaniment with this with other musicians who had an actual 5/4 feel, I think if I played this way, they would want to kill me - except of course in limited parts where it felt interesting - but the whole feel? Nah. I think it's really more about learning how to Feel 5/4 or 7 or whatever and less about how to play feeling 4/4 while counting 5/4, which feels like cheating and missing the point of the odd meter to begin with since you are really just playing even meter anyway. Maybe I'm completely off here and don't know what I'm talking about - but my $.02 nonetheless.
I agree, I think putting the 5 on the kick, snare, left foot or combination while adding 2 or 3-bar long phrases on top of that would be a better way to practice. Many odd meters have started to feel very comfortable to me after listening to and playing odd meters for so long that doing fills that go over the bar feels pretty intuitive. Also most of these examples are basically just polymeters which is another level of complexity added if you're just trying to be able to play longer phrases in odd meters.
I always found odd time signatures exciting. I never got boxed into thinking of music as only naturally phrasing into 4/4. Within odd time... rhythmic phrases become as unique and interesting as melodic phrases, which are obviously not always sung in even quarter or eighth note phrases. Bill Bruford, Phil Collins and Neil Peart helped me regularly escape the 4/4 prison of popular music.
I love odd meters, I like a nice funky 15/16, I totally understand the bar line jail though, after a while you don't think of it as a jail cell, more like a bigger jail cell where you can do more, I like to play over the bar on a odd time, I don't really count odd times, its a feeling now, even times I haven't done before if I can feel it I can play it.
“It’s a lot more boring right?” No. You grooved harder and it made me bob my head when you phrased simpler. I think for odd meters you’re totally right about having more flowing phrasing but I wouldn’t necessarily make that a priority over making the tune bump in whatever meter. The average listener doesn’t play music, Ethelred blind to a lot of the nuance we think is important.
May I ask if there is a special reason why you put that Tama S.L.P. kit on the video cover ? ( Or is it called "thumbnail ? " ) Just curious. greetings,...and stay healthy !
not sure if my level of drumming allows me to have a word on this, but i think i'm pretty fluent in odd time sigs. what worked for me i guess was ingesting an insane amount of danny carey drumming and improvising with my band, all this over a pretty long period of time with consistence. then again, i'm a pretty-much-self-taught drummer of a post-rock/alternative band so i just kinda figured it out for myself
crifox16 Same here, though I've never played in a band. However, thanks both to playing a lot of Soundgarden and, more importantly, Tool, and to my general interest causing me to practice odd times, I can jump into pretty much any one I want (including off-sixteenths!), and it's pretty satisfying to have a skill subset that's fairly rare like that. Helps make up for much of lumbering oaf I am when it comes to speed.
Tried phrases of 4 over 9/8 the other day. #fail... Probably much like when I'm gonna have to solo in 17 on Tuesday 🤦🏼 anyway.. can be nice to hide the skip beat in the middle of the bar. So if for example you're in 7/8, turn that into 14/16, grouped 3,3,2,3,3 to make a sort of clave to phrase around. Which means you'll naturally phrase over the barline every time. From there you know that you can play in constant groups of three as long as you throw in a group of 2 anywhere in the bar.... And that's my secret for getting everyone on the gig lost.. including myself 🧐
It's perfectly doable not to think about a 4/4 count but are you saying that you would be able to do any odd signature without counting it? Is it simply a case of practice?? I never was any good with numbers...
I didn't watch the hole thing but if you didn't talk about grouping, then to make your life easier when soloing or improvise in general break the time signature in to groups for example: 7/4 1234 123 5/4 123 12. Like that i found it more comfortable.
Ha, love Anger management! Sting had an old song with Vinnie “I hung my head” , it shows that keeping a accent on the down beat while the rest of the limbs follow the language somewhere else can have a pretty simple, but audible difference..
im no drummer, does 80/20 mean anything? there is also a band i know called 30/70 that is heavily rhythm based, it almost leads me to believe they are related to the same concept.
I grew up listening to big band and jazz then moved on to other time signatures so it came naturally to me, I guess, no idea. I guess I don't think about it anymore.
That's not how it feels. I think I use the weight of my arm and sort of "follow through" the stroke. I'm reluctant to describe what I'm doing without really examining it tho. A lot of time what we think we're doing isn't what we're really doing :P
Hey, can anybody tell what the trashy stack is being used to the right of the bass drum? I think I know what the top cymbal is, a Zildjian EFX crash, but I don’t know what the bottom one is. Thanks.
After I learned to count an odd time while playing over the bar line in four beat phrases, I found it not so fun to do to reverse, play the odd time and count in 4
It's nice to think like this but the grooves don't sound the way you're counting. Meaning when you are counting 5 or 7, the groove while nice still sounds like it's in 3 or 4.. 🤷🏽♂️
After learning some rush songs I don’t really struggle with 7/8 (Tom Sawyer played poorly) and 5/4 (intro to YYZ which is very fun) and 7/4 (Spirit of the radio) but HOW TF ARE YOU SUPPOSE TO PLAY 13/16?!?
Keep it simple at first just drop it on the One that’s all you have to do , count straight through and hit that bass drum every time the one comes around eventually playing over the bar line and breaking the count up will get easier , I’ve been playing over 30 years and that tip was given to me long ago and it demystified odd time right then and there . The KISS method , Keep It Simple Stupid . Lol
Great lesson! If anyone is interested, here's a song my band plays that is based on some of these over-the-bar line ideas. The A section is a constant 3/5 polyrhythm, orchestrated around the kick and across the ensamble. On that part of the tune, we hit every "one" pretty hard. On the B sections, we phrase over the barlines on that 15 beat cycle, creating new "barlines" but maintaining the cycle and phrasing together. I hope you all dig it, and would appreciate any feedback! ua-cam.com/video/tPLZ7cqsIB0/v-deo.html
That's because you're counting. I realize there are people that count when they are playing the drums, but I think the ones sound the best are the ones that are just playing feel. I'm not saying they are not keeping a timing, but they are definitely not counting numbers in their head. More important is rhythm, instead of time.
this seems like the less useful half of the way of thinking about odd meter. playing 2,3,4 phrases on top of 5,7,9... meter vs. playing 2,3,5 phrases across the bar line in 3,4,6,8 meters.
If you want to listen to a master of odd meter playing that is cleverly disguised listen to Jethro Tull especially Barrymore Barlow. Getting tired of hearing about Bonham and Peart all the time. Jethro Tull is just one example of great drummers that have played just as technical as Bonham or Peart , 2 legends no doubt who have inspired many but there are others, in Jazz, Funk, Latin, Speed Metal that play this stuff in their sleep. 🖖
Challenging stuff. I hate when I think I'm grooving in 7, start a fill, and immediately my brain reverts to 4, causing me to lose the 1. Having a bass grooving in the odd time helps though.
MomoTheBellyDancer Seriously? Or is that sarcasm?
@MomoTheBellyDancer Exactly, but the bass player often has a longer time scale that is distinct for a full bar. Money by Pink FLoyd comes to mind. It's easy to play that because the bass line is so memorable. Similarly, the singer helps keep you track of the very long time scale, when changes are coming, etc. Without the singer, some song would require you just to count bars in your head.
MomoTheBellyDancer the musicians are not playing alone, they are playing together as an ensemble. It’s their job to support their fellow musicians
@MomoTheBellyDancer on your first comment i thought you were joking....it was funny....but reading through i realize you were NOT joking...
your logic and reasoning, is deadly accurate here.....like a good lawyer..
..im just learning to play drums enough to multitrack on my original songs, and i have a taste for odd meters,
but this is above MY payscale..... (im a guitarist mainly.... ) ...i figure, just like when i learned guitar, a 'little' Jazz background will put me way ahead of the pack....
so this is a good lesson for me....
I DO believe that learning to play "Money' will be good for me, cos i like Nick Mason......and his style.....and it isnt in just 4/4....
and its impressive that the song was SUCH a big hit....it kinda snuck under the radar into the public consciousness....
I sure wont be learning any Mahavishnu stuff, because im more into Ringo, and Levon, and Keltner these days....(it suits my songwriting style )
but i think this is one of 80/20s best lessons...and im here to learn.
Thanks for your input....Sir..... ;-)
I agree
Don’t you dare ever change the channel theme I love it so much it’s obscene.
Your drum face has an I-just-woke-up-at-the-dentist-and-my-mouth-is-completely-numb vibe to it. I'm a fan. And though I'm a total drumming noob (coming from some popular stringed instruments) your videos are really bringing into focus the way I want to play.
Now you mentioned it, I'm eager to hear the channel theme in 7/8 or 9/8.
Odd meters - or how i like to call them: HOW TF DO YOU PLAY THIS
Your demonstration of playing over the bar line both in straight and odd time was perhaps the best demo of anything you've done on your channel. And it also reminds me that I really need to bone up my practice routine....
Odd meters, where would we be without 'em! A great way to be challenging, and add excitement to the mix!! Thanks again Nate for this invaluable insight dude, stay cool!!!
When I play 7/8 I like to count 1-2-3- 1-2- 1-2 or a different variation of that. It makes the beat feel like it flows better.
You can count in a number of different ways and it will feel different. 1 2 3 4 1 2 3. 1 2, 1 2 3, 1 2...etc
My advice would be to treat those as individual grooves you gotta learn. 3+4 and 4+3 are both very common in east european music, they have really different feels to them and both require some getting used to. 2+3+2 is unheard of though, as far as any traditional music I've ever studied or heard.
You can count 7, knowing how you structure it. In Kumi na moja, Simon Phillips plays 11/8. First part of the piece, he plays 5/4 + one eight (or 4/4 + 3/8), in the bridge he plays 12/8 minus one eight. Of course, Simon doesn't need to count. But some of us do.
I find that learning even the basics of konnakol has helped me tremendously with odd time stuff. Indian music is linear and has no harmony, only melody and rhythm, so their focus on rhythm is way more advanced, as well as how they see and feel rhythm. Even polymetric and polyrithmic stuff starts becoming easier to understand. Even if you just use the bols to speak rhythms and don't make use of kaidas, tihais and so on.
Mega agree with you and do the same
Yeah bro exactly. That video on Indian drum language changed my life. I realized that the word Seven is two syllables and that was confusing my brain
If you say the full word, you're actually adding extra duration to the last beat. The faster your tempo is, the more time you're adding to the last beat. Eleven is worse, as it adds one triplet to the end of the beat if you say the full word.
konnakol unlocks everything. It's like the secret language of a mathematical universe.
I'm Greek and when I count from 1 to 4 everything has 2 syllables except 4 that has 3, tessera.. That's tes se ra, so what I did because it confused me was to cut the se, so it became te ra if you know what I mean
I been struggling to find an easier way to get odd meters over the bar line. This may be what I’ve been looking for. I’ve learned that you helping me learn helps my students learn. Thank you
I can see you're coming out of your shell and pushing it a bit. I respect that man. There aren't many introverts on youtube.
You smile so much more when you count out loud while you're playing than just about anything else I've ever seen on your channel. lol
But - playing snare on 1 is illegal :0
That’s only for clapping
You better let Ginger Baker know!!!
"Funk is on the one Baba!"
cbix unless you’re doing progressive stuff!
hahahaha .. great comment ;-)
But first - channel theme - in 4 😂🤘🏻 you’re the best dude
Enjoyable and informative as always. Thanks!
This is exactly what gavin harrison talks about when he talks about using regular subdivision pulse to keep the listener grounded while playing any odd time signature. 1/4 note pulse over 7/8 , it goes even odd even second bar , by playing 1 1/4 note pulse over 5/8 your creating a common anchor point . that everything else can revolve around !! Its great practice. I awlays had issues hearing two bar phases of 5/8 in my head , when I stopped listening that way. I started to come together.
woah.. i think this might be a game changing video for me. thanks ;o
I essentialy started out with odd time signatures (often, well into the upper-teens), completely unaware that it was, in any way, 'advanced'. On the contrary, I had a bad case of 'imposter syndrome' because of it. Eventually, I would learn to 'count' my natural oscillations. But I never got over the imposter syndrome... and was easily impressed to see someone just playing a simple 4/4 rhythm ('Why can't I sound disciplined and 'real' like that?'). But it's significant that I NEVER COUNTED until much later (that's why I am able to 'feel' odd meters to this day).
I always just listened to and played along with Bulgarian folk music and also practiced 4 over 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, & 13 to a click and vice versa 3 over 4 etc. Thanks for the video👍
when i count seven I say "sev". one two three four five six sev one
Good tip. But I'm french. Problems start only with 14, quatorze.
@@ofdrumsandchords Ze
@@nicolechacon7323 Oh, good idea, I can use the trei -ze. Now, problems start at 17 ! But I'm not often confronted with this. My fellow musicians don't allow me to write arrangements in odd time signatures, as they think my arrangements in four are already pains in the ass (I'm a big fan of cuban music, obviously they are not).
Absolutely, that was a big step up for me w a small thing...the uniform single syllable count is huge
Love the Matt Cameron mentions!! Great vid 🤘 Thank you ⚡⚡
Little rough in the morning, but I did enjoy it, and I appreciate your passion Drum Brother!
Very helpfull exersice! Thanks for the idea!
You can play in 4/4 so effortlessly because you've internalized 4/4 meter. You have to do that with every other meter as well, internalize it. Learn to play 200 songs in 7/8 and you'll be fine in 7/8. Jmho
Alternative description:
Step 1: don't know odd meter
Step 2: listen to King Gizzard a bunch
Step 3: ???
Step 4: You've internalized odd meter
This is really it. Anything you can practice will end up being learned, and odd meter isn't even particularly difficult with a bit of investment. Polyrhythms... now those can be hard on a level that requires much more prior engagement. Still, everything is possible.
Min huang Trout Mask Replica and Lick My Decals Off, Baby!
Absolutely. Intuition is key to odd meter. Manually calculating each measure is just non viable.
Bill Peart Right. It's all anectodal. I grew up mostly playing to songs in 6 (not a conscious effort at the time, it just so happened a lot of bands I like write songs in 6). When I tried holding down a basic 4/4 groove it was actually awkward for me for about a week.
Oh man, so well said and so true for me! Thank you!
Always great content, funny that the drum kit on the title page has wood hoops and today i just started making some for my kit.
Great insight! Thank you and I’ll try it first thing in the morning.I’ll let you know how it went, although only the last minute it makes sense to me, maybe because I’ve understood only that by now. It is going to keep me busy for some time. I was always supposing how Donati is thinking it, and I guess it should be this way, only more simplified for us mortals.
Jon Onabowu smashing "Actual Proof" at 2:11!! Now there's an odd time roast
Nate I really liked your playing in this video, usually I think jazz drums can be a little too floaty. Not so here. I love the channel.
Phil Collins makes odd time groove. Home by the sea 2 and Back in New York City groove so hard.
👏🏽good analogies in the beginning there 🎶
When I hear jazz in an odd time signature, I just don’t know where the down beat is
i don't think i'll ever play in these time signatures, but i know having a handle on them will greatly improve my playing overhead
This is where marching-style grids really come in handy. Just playing it on a pad helps train your ear hear where the downbeat falls against odd groupings, whether in odd meter or not. Grids = help you play over the bar.
Yea the marching guys are great at this. Too bad my marching video got like 2000 views
I am fortunate to have played in the fusion years.. odd times are fairly natural to us old goats.. Hey what were the names of the three jazz drummers you mentioned? I could not quite make them out thanks :)
Bill -
Marcus Gilmore plays drums with the Vijay Iyer Trio.
Gilad Hekselman is a jazz guitarist. I think he's played with a variety of drummers but Ari Hoenig, Eric Harland, and Jeff Ballard come to mind.
Tigran Hamasyan is a pianist. I'm not as familiar with his music and am not sure which drummers he's worked with.
Cheers!
@@philipthoennes4546 Thank you a bit late lol.. Love your videos.. both the knowledge as well as the humor.. Young drummers don't know how good they have it today regarding the internet.. I had a radio 😉🥁
I love them, and I had little normal bars in my life. However I know the jail. I overcome a new challenge by splitting beats into triples, and a rest, keeping in mind where the 1 is. Over time I get the feeling and then I can play without loosing it.
We are used to a lot of rythmic patterns in 4/4, but when it comes to odd time signatures, we have a choice between a neutral counting, or a specific pattern. In his method Contemporary drummer + 1, for the tune Island magic, Dave Weckl explains he counts 1 2 3 & (two quarters two pointed eights). It's a clave in 7/8. Very difficult. You can play salsa singing the son clave, or the rumba clave, but how are we supposed to sing a specific clave on any tune in 11 or 15 ?
I chose the neutral counting, that allows me to put the accents where I want and feel a particular pattern without being stuck to it. In "19 days", Gavin Harrison counts 7 7 5. Piece of cake.... till the music comes in !
I find many of your videos interesting to watch and listen to and some instructional, but I didn't find this one helpful. In fact, when you got to the "2 bar phrases over 5" bit around 6:00 and I started ignoring the count on screen and instead started my own count, I found them to be just basic 4/4 (with the snare on 1) and the 5/4 might have been happening underneath, but there was no sense of that pulse. In effect, I didn't find these to have a 5/4 feel at all, and if there were accompaniment with this with other musicians who had an actual 5/4 feel, I think if I played this way, they would want to kill me - except of course in limited parts where it felt interesting - but the whole feel? Nah. I think it's really more about learning how to Feel 5/4 or 7 or whatever and less about how to play feeling 4/4 while counting 5/4, which feels like cheating and missing the point of the odd meter to begin with since you are really just playing even meter anyway. Maybe I'm completely off here and don't know what I'm talking about - but my $.02 nonetheless.
I agree, I think putting the 5 on the kick, snare, left foot or combination while adding 2 or 3-bar long phrases on top of that would be a better way to practice. Many odd meters have started to feel very comfortable to me after listening to and playing odd meters for so long that doing fills that go over the bar feels pretty intuitive. Also most of these examples are basically just polymeters which is another level of complexity added if you're just trying to be able to play longer phrases in odd meters.
I really like 7/8. Thx for the content!
I don’t have much trouble with 7 or 5 but when it’s comes to meters like 15/16 or 19/16, 18/8 and so on I get really confused
Great video mate 👌
I always found odd time signatures exciting. I never got boxed into thinking of music as only naturally phrasing into 4/4. Within odd time... rhythmic phrases become as unique and interesting as melodic phrases, which are obviously not always sung in even quarter or eighth note phrases. Bill Bruford, Phil Collins and Neil Peart helped me regularly escape the 4/4 prison of popular music.
I love odd meters, I like a nice funky 15/16, I totally understand the bar line jail though, after a while you don't think of it as a jail cell, more like a bigger jail cell where you can do more, I like to play over the bar on a odd time, I don't really count odd times, its a feeling now, even times I haven't done before if I can feel it I can play it.
you and carter are go to for anything drums
Nice approach! One question, what is the name of the drummer / group at 10:32? I know you said it but i couldn't figure it out. Thank you!
“It’s a lot more boring right?”
No. You grooved harder and it made me bob my head when you phrased simpler. I think for odd meters you’re totally right about having more flowing phrasing but I wouldn’t necessarily make that a priority over making the tune bump in whatever meter. The average listener doesn’t play music, Ethelred blind to a lot of the nuance we think is important.
I kinda caught that too. I agree that it sounds less boring playing repetitively in even meters.
Cool lesson!
May I ask if there is a special reason why you put that Tama S.L.P. kit on the video cover ? ( Or is it called "thumbnail ? " )
Just curious.
greetings,...and stay healthy !
not sure if my level of drumming allows me to have a word on this, but i think i'm pretty fluent in odd time sigs. what worked for me i guess was ingesting an insane amount of danny carey drumming and improvising with my band, all this over a pretty long period of time with consistence. then again, i'm a pretty-much-self-taught drummer of a post-rock/alternative band so i just kinda figured it out for myself
crifox16 Same here, though I've never played in a band. However, thanks both to playing a lot of Soundgarden and, more importantly, Tool, and to my general interest causing me to practice odd times, I can jump into pretty much any one I want (including off-sixteenths!), and it's pretty satisfying to have a skill subset that's fairly rare like that. Helps make up for much of lumbering oaf I am when it comes to speed.
If I understand correctly what he is try to tell is that you take any 4/4 beat and just put that on 5/4 bar so it doesn't broken? Some help please 🙏🙏
Tried phrases of 4 over 9/8 the other day. #fail... Probably much like when I'm gonna have to solo in 17 on Tuesday 🤦🏼 anyway.. can be nice to hide the skip beat in the middle of the bar. So if for example you're in 7/8, turn that into 14/16, grouped 3,3,2,3,3 to make a sort of clave to phrase around. Which means you'll naturally phrase over the barline every time. From there you know that you can play in constant groups of three as long as you throw in a group of 2 anywhere in the bar.... And that's my secret for getting everyone on the gig lost.. including myself 🧐
It's perfectly doable not to think about a 4/4 count but are you saying that you would be able to do any odd signature without counting it? Is it simply a case of practice?? I never was any good with numbers...
my prediction is that you're going to say play over the barline
NAILED IT
I didn't watch the hole thing but if you didn't talk about grouping, then to make your life easier when soloing or improvise in general break the time signature in to groups for example: 7/4 1234 123 5/4 123 12. Like that i found it more comfortable.
Ha, love Anger management!
Sting had an old song with Vinnie “I hung my head” , it shows that keeping a accent on the down beat while the rest of the limbs follow the language somewhere else can have a pretty simple, but audible difference..
this gives me a cool idea: when playing 4/4 you can have the hihat or ride doing a 7 beat phrasing to really make things interesting
Well, now you know what a polyrythm is lol
@@miguelrengifo5491 oh right, duh XD
is there a full version of your intro, good video btw
I worked out playing in 5 listening to and shedding on James Black stuff
im no drummer, does 80/20 mean anything? there is also a band i know called 30/70 that is heavily rhythm based, it almost leads me to believe they are related to the same concept.
I grew up listening to big band and jazz then moved on to other time signatures so it came naturally to me, I guess, no idea. I guess I don't think about it anymore.
thank you!
Superb!
How did you record your drum audio for this video
Hey! Your links on the site are not redirecting me to anything. Is there a problem on your site?
are you pressing the stick to the head?
That's not how it feels. I think I use the weight of my arm and sort of "follow through" the stroke. I'm reluctant to describe what I'm doing without really examining it tho. A lot of time what we think we're doing isn't what we're really doing :P
Hey, can anybody tell what the trashy stack is being used to the right of the bass drum? I think I know what the top cymbal is, a Zildjian EFX crash, but I don’t know what the bottom one is. Thanks.
That's Arthur Hnatek at 10:33
shhhhhhhhh
Great example of this in 7, “orange time machines care” by a lot like birds
Who was the second jazz player named between Vijay and Tigran Hamasyan?
After I learned to count an odd time while playing over the bar line in four beat phrases, I found it not so fun to do to reverse, play the odd time and count in 4
Cool Bro...
Really sorry can't catch the name of the band. Would love to hear more of them anyone enlighten me please
5:08 band name ?
One-Legged Man Falling Down the Stairs should be a band name.
Your channer is very underrated.
I really learn more on your channel than on any other much bigger channels like drumeo.
You really know how to get in the head of a struggling drummer to find weak spots
How do u make a video on every problem i have?
I'm spying on you
The 80/20 Drummer ba-dum-tiss
Yeah Man. But you said My Buddies name Vijay iyer. Good lord. We were bandmates. Great Video thank you!
It's nice to think like this but the grooves don't sound the way you're counting. Meaning when you are counting 5 or 7, the groove while nice still sounds like it's in 3 or 4.. 🤷🏽♂️
What do you usually do with your left foot?
13:31 Someone's been watching the nine club
Fun fact the thumbnail was a 5:3 polyrhythm
I loved the similes at the beginning. I found them to be very accurate
After learning some rush songs I don’t really struggle with 7/8 (Tom Sawyer played poorly) and 5/4 (intro to YYZ which is very fun) and 7/4 (Spirit of the radio) but HOW TF ARE YOU SUPPOSE TO PLAY 13/16?!?
What's the piano song at 0:56? Lovely :)
Vijay's arrangement of Human Nature. It's on one of his records
Feeling very dumb right now!
Keep it simple at first just drop it on the One that’s all you have to do , count straight through and hit that bass drum every time the one comes around eventually playing over the bar line and breaking the count up will get easier , I’ve been playing over 30 years and that tip was given to me long ago and it demystified odd time right then and there . The KISS method , Keep It Simple Stupid . Lol
Groove or groove Not. That is the question,
Did you just forgot to mention Dan Weiss on this topic? :P
Burak Ildiz I have a whole lesson on him. I used to take lessons with him, on and off
0:52 what is this :0
William Allison it is a version of Michael Jacksons Human nature by Vijay Iyer trio.
14:18 Oof.
Great lesson! If anyone is interested, here's a song my band plays that is based on some of these over-the-bar line ideas. The A section is a constant 3/5 polyrhythm, orchestrated around the kick and across the ensamble. On that part of the tune, we hit every "one" pretty hard. On the B sections, we phrase over the barlines on that 15 beat cycle, creating new "barlines" but maintaining the cycle and phrasing together. I hope you all dig it, and would appreciate any feedback!
ua-cam.com/video/tPLZ7cqsIB0/v-deo.html
Cool idea, the beat is cool. For me their isn’t enough melodic content, or change in harmony to keep interested. A bit out there
This better be KILLING
@@8020drummer I'll let you be the judge. I hope you like it.
Against all odds movie has nothing to do with this😁
NO RUSH fan drummer hates playing odd meters! 👍
@13:31 hope he's not trying to sell me homemade porn.
Numbers complicate things. Just listen to the actual music.
Is it me or it took you three long minutes to get into the subject?
That's because you're counting. I realize there are people that count when they are playing the drums, but I think the ones sound the best are the ones that are just playing feel. I'm not saying they are not keeping a timing, but they are definitely not counting numbers in their head.
More important is rhythm, instead of time.
this seems like the less useful half of the way of thinking about odd meter.
playing 2,3,4 phrases on top of 5,7,9... meter
vs.
playing 2,3,5 phrases across the bar line in 3,4,6,8 meters.
But sometimes people write songs in 5/7/9 and you've gotta make it not-boring
I agreed with everything except that i never lost interest in law and order ;)
If you want to listen to a master of odd meter playing that is cleverly disguised
listen to Jethro Tull especially Barrymore Barlow. Getting tired of hearing about Bonham and Peart all the time. Jethro Tull is just one example of great drummers that have played just as technical as Bonham or Peart , 2 legends no doubt who have inspired many but there are others, in Jazz, Funk, Latin, Speed Metal that play this stuff in their sleep. 🖖