Actually took this to the extreme and ripped apart my gaming PC, put together a rack mount server and setup a gaming vm with GPU passthrough because of these videos. But found the biggest benifit for me is the fact you can switch OSs with GPU passthrough being the biggest thing. Being able to play games then switch to Kali and have a full GPU for password auditing is awesome
I remember 2003 Aldo trying to figure out GPU accelerated VDI for CAD work. Now 19 yrs later, I'm a veteran in the VDI/Cloud industry and a Citrix long-time employee. I understand and Share your passion, Jeff 👍👌
@@mscd9676 search your passion and convert it to a career. Start with small companies and learn the technologies in-and-out. Your future will build itself that way
@@mscd9676 The advide Aldo gave is absolutely true, go to work to small companies that allow you to grow. However don't fell into comfort, keep getting better! Eventually after several years into the industry, being in several different companies, you can just apply to whatever company you like the most and they will surely hire you, as your resume and skills will surely impress. Be passionate and grind several years without letting companies get your soul!
Do you know when Citrix will handle varying DPI across monitors on the same workstation ? This problem makes us either use only two 4K monitors or a 1080p monitor along with laptop if DPI are the same both displays are readable, but if they differ Citrix clicks where the mouse pointer isn't.🙃
I really enjoyed your comments about Java. Working as an IT Admin / Support person for nearly 23 years now if someone said to me what would be the most annoying thing that comes up? I would also have said Java. Windows update breaks it and having to support loads of in house apps that need a specific version of Java has been a nightmare. Thankfully we seem to be moving away from it now and for the few apps I do support the latest Java build works with all of them.
First time watching something on this channel. And I am just... bewildered at the review at the end. Like, we just came from talking about computers and networking and now we talking about double peanut butter and double chocolate beer? I need to watch more stuff like this honestly.
I had no idea you were being such a pioneer in bringing this sort of knowledge and skillset to the regular consumer/enthusiast crowd online. Good on you for pursuing this for as long as you have
The idea of using a single server for multiple users excites me. I have a large family, and each kid needs a terminal for homework, etc., and sometimes will benefit from a GPU or other resources. I doubt all of them will ever all need a full computer (with licenses, etc.) at the same time.
I personally use parsec to remote into my home and school workstations from anywhere. I require a lot of compute power for my schoolwork which requires virtualization. It is also more cost effective since I don’t need a powerful laptop! Remote in and have 10 cores 20 threads and 64GB of ram just like that! It’s awesome!
Cloud Gaming and VDI is a must have for our very small school. I can only imagine how the fleets of chromebooks that big schools deployed would be sustained and enhanced by VDI access to big apps and secure data lakes.
We sell Citrix XenApp and have multiuser desktops sharing a GPU, these each run rendering software for architecture firms with full rendered scenes for live visualization for their customers. I forget which GPU model they use, but it turns out that CPU core counts is the limiter due to scene object counts. We also use published apps, something I’ve done too with RDS.
This is literally exactly what I need. The work that I am getting of the ground involves video editing, 3d and 2d modeling and programming. Right now I am a one man band so remoting into a powerful windows VM on my server that has the relevant resources is much more attractive than building tailors machines. If all goes well and I find myself needing help than this situation is only amplified. I am a small entity and don't have those deep pockets so yeah home users need this technology. I also have the same use case as you did with your CNC, but with a 3d printer.
The content you make is now why I run my own plex server in an old Dell r510 12 bay with dual x5670s and just doing basic homelab and file server stuff is fucking amazing how well truenas works for they specific use case
Right before the pandemic hit we were running Autodesk Revit on VDI's at our company. We had no loss of business continuity thankts to this. Needless to say, I'm a fan of the this tech :) We've since ditched our own hardware and are running on our service provider's hardware. With the evolution of cloud platforms (Autodesk Collab for example) we're considering to switching back to (mobile) phat clients. Stability of the machines is somewhat of an issue and it is very sensitive to network latency.
I think what you called AppV was really RemoteApp. AppV ran the virtualized environment on the local user’s device, not a server. It was great for getting old applications working on newer operating systems.
@@TheWebstaff RemoteApp (the server component of it) works on win Pro and Enterprise editions from XP onwards. Obviously the client can be whatever Windows version
We really need a better head solution for our VDI endeavors than just Parsec and Moonlight. Really don’t understand why QEMU team doesn’t make an application for video accelerated remote access.
@@orthodoxNPC The hypervisor is responsible for transferring the guest's console. Currently if you want GPU acceleration to work right with Moonlight you need to disable the emulated video adapter, meaning you lose video access if the guest crashes.
What I most want in the VDI space is to use a single GPU to transcode Plex with NVENC or whatever hardware encoder while also playing a game from a VM on the server. Right now, I can't share a GPU with a docker container like Plex and a VM at the same time.
The Achilles heel of VDI, still locked up tighter than the Caramilk secret after so long. AMD's MXGPU had my hopes up a few years ago, but their choice of keeping it exclusive to the big guys is just as dirty as NVIDIA's licensing model. Multi-GPU adapters in passthrough still seems to be the best option for the Xen crowd (that don't want to get in bed with Citrix again, we just got over that rash).
Jeezus...you just helped me out IMMENSELY!! Thanks for hitting me with that bolt of lightning as well...the stupid sh!t I've tried to run my Lightburn (with 4k cam as well) from across the house is mind bottling!
Hey Jeff, wanted to say thank you for this video. I am studying the Dell EMC Infomation Storage and Management. I am creating a Flow Chart of all of the modules and am using this as a reference to VDI [Virtual Desk Infrastructure] and Daas[Desktop as a Service] Cheers for the good content as allways
The consumer market for intel/amd/nvidia is very small compared to the hyperscaler market, for which the large players are amazon, ms, google, ibm etc. These large players are buying billions of dollars worth of hardware from these guys. The only reason we dont have sr-iov on consumer cards (IMO) is because the hyperscalers wont allow it. They want you to 'rent' cloud resources, not create your own private cloud.
its amazing you mention VDI. I only follow you for some homelab stuff. I am a refrigeration engineer that needs to connect to the largest supermarket grocer in the US that use s a setup using "VDI" that requires a java web applet to log in locally. I chuckled quite a bit with your subtle jokes.
As much as I would like to run a game server vm with passthrough, the last time I tried it the power consumption of the gpu when the vm was not in use was sky high. I actually used less power with a Windows VM spun up with gpu passthrough and the Windows drivers allow the gpu to go into low power mode. Not sure if this behavior has changed with different hypervisors or nvidia drivers.
The windows paravirtualization seems like the best solution for home users but I have never really heard you talk about it again. Is the performance bad?
As always I really appreciate your insights, Jeff. Will you please discuss network latency and input lag, particularly as it affects users connecting from afar and not the local network? I have run into problems with Maya and Mudbox being unusable in a virtualized environment due to input lag. Certain actions are highly sensitive to latency more than a few milliseconds. (Pass through of Wacom input has also been a problem -- but that is a separate issue.)
I’m doing the same but not as well thought out so far. My sever is in my Caselabs M8 that I have been building out for over 10 years. This was originally bought as a watercooling beast but as time has gone on my needs have changed and as I downscaled on size of my house and as a free a family I decided to start using it as a watercooled server. Watercooling mainly as an additional challenge and because it’s fun. But seeing as how it’s also located in a living space I also enjoy how quiet it is. It has 22 2.5” hotswap SSDs and 8 HDDs. That Many SSDs for VMs, Plex/jellyfin metadata, and ISCSI drives for other computers in the house. I’ll add a disk shelf if I ever need more. Mine is running on UnRaid and I have a Gaming Windows 10VM. Then I also run dockers for Plex, Jellyfin, Pi-Hole, Wireguard, and more. It’s amazing how many uses you can find for a server. I would love to see SR-IOV on some consumer cards even in limited capacity. Especially because the new crop of ATX boards seem to have 1x PCIe 5.0 slot x16, 1x PCIe 4.0 x 16, and if you are lucky maybe one more x16 size but with very limited bandwidth. If you want to do an internal HBA, external HBA(for disk shelf), then 1-2 more GPUs then you have to look at Threadripper 3000 or older or worse X299 at this point. At least PCIe 3.0 doesn’t really have much an issue with gaming performance but with direct play coming down the pipes and the need for faster speeds for storage might be needed
I use my form of VDI to remote into my cloud development machine. I am a full stack developer and this allows me to use a very light and entry-level laptop with very good battery life to work for 8 hours straight on a battery charge. Besides that the laptop uses Ubuntu and I can log into my remote Mac and develop iOS applications.
Very interesting video. One of my client uses Citrix web interface for vdi launching. What I would be interested in now is how to setup the remote VDI secure launching and how do you handle multiple users: do we need to have one VDI per user (meaning that proxmox has one VM per user) or is there a way to have a template VM that can adapt on the each user (desktop, c drive etc…) depending on the username who logs-in (like a generic VM usable for all users and proxmox would re-instanciate if all such existing VMs are already being used)?
What a timely video. I have a dream: A hardware puck with triple monitor outputs and a few usb ports. Something like a steamlink puck but more ports. Then you just log in with your username and use it as a terminal that remotes into the central computer. It's as fast or slow as the amount of concurrent users and their tasks. I feel like we are very close to getting this to work with a "retired parents" level of usability and ease.
id be nice to see a video on what consumer hardware the m40, p4 or higher can run on and what workarounds you come up with. all the AI advancements like stable diffusion has caused a rush to high memory GPUs and the M40 (i speak from experience) does not play well with older or even current hardware. cant speak to the P4 as im watching the GPU market right now and hoping to score a few P40s or better soon.
I intend for my laptop to basically be my cheap home server. It will always run a web browser, plex server, and on-demand apps that I want to stream to my other computer over the local network (like Doom Emacs).
As Java developer who wrote some of those desktop apps for configuration back in the day, including ones for the telecom industry. I'm both sorry and not sorry. I'm not sorry because at the time it really was the best tool for the job (not applets though, those weren't ever a good idea). I am sorry because not everyone who was writing those apps had any skill for it. It was a different time, people of no skill or training somehow would get sat in front of a computer and told "Make this mission critical app". Powerful software development systems like Java were given to people who had absolutely no experience with anything like it and expected to do amazing things. We had a term for this back in the day, "cluster truck". Actually, it wasn't a cluster truck but something else that sounds very similar. So yeah, lots of us did our best but It was just too ahead of its time and missed its mark.
this is my biggest issue. going to build a cheap rig for all my esport multiplayer games. and then have cloud set up for all my singleplayer and games that don't have anticheat
Currently running a poweredge t430 with a 1050 ti for wife and I to game/3dmodel/3dprint with and k620 for blue iris transcoding. Works mostly well. Excited to see where the next few years go. Edit: ok big question. How are you handling licensing these days? Just got a volume license for your vids?
How are you liking that so far? I have a t320 I’m thinking of trying it with. I have an r 620 that I’m setting up right now but for the rest of the fam an m40 or m80 24gig on the t320 might just work for their Minecraft
i have one video request regarding vdi i want to set up my main rig as a cloud accesible machine through a cheap laptop why spending tons of money in a laptop when you can buy a really efficient arm based laptop or chromebook and access your main rig power through the cloud, thats what i been thinking lately, i tried parsec but i think i messed up the configuration, can you make a video about this? i think having your main desktop accessible anywhere could be of great help
5:30 Nope that's not what I was thinking. I was actually thinking, "how long before the security weenee says, nope we cant have XP running on anything."
How do you recommend getting into and choosing a budget rack server (looking to replace my nas with a budget server)? Where to start? I’m looking for something to fit 22” deep. Is there a way to easily find the dimensions of rack servers? What brand? Which processor family?
I don't see any mention of this in comments and maybe I have missed something from other videos but where can I get my hands on that 3d printed case for the m60 with the fans on the bottom side of the card?! I have hated the idea of buying one of these kinds of cards because of how loud it would be with a little duct and fan.
I recently have been using my M40 for video editing as well. I am a little disappointed Davinci Resolve only seems to hit the card for 30% utilization when rendering. My server still can't make a decent cup of tea though.
Okay Jeff, which video shows how you're getting Cyberpunk 2077, RT on and 60fps virtually? I'm trying to spec out a server for the following uses cases: - NAS storage to run a Steam library (iSCSI most likely) - Home Media server for my digital movies, shows (jellyfin most likely) - Remote gaming for my wife or a guest to run Steam games on other devices (she has an iMac) Would the following do it: Xeon E5-2697v3, 256GB RAM RTX 2080 Super (I own that, but should I consider a Quadro P5000 or Tesla P4 *need cooling solution ) Chenbro T580 40GBe direct from the server to my desktop PC, 1Gbe for the rest of the network Bunch of spinning rust for Raidz1 or z2 storage Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
I am trying to game on my home PC, while im not at home. Currently i use Parsec, but it is limited to 1080p and 60FPS. Also it can't use AV1, yet. Does anyone know some easy alternatives?
Probably not worth it, because the latency introduced by the network and the video encoding and decoding will feel equally slow as when you play at 60fps.
@@thomashenry8006 I don't own that. And i forgot to say, but i also do other things then gaming while using Parsec. :D Even watching Movies, since i don't have to transfer the Data and so on.
Hey, sorry to bother... First time long time. I've been browsing your videos, what is the best enterprise GPU solution to vm game that you've come across sub $300?
Fascinating topic and 1 I have following for some years. Put it to the side for a while due to hardware limitations and economics. I foresee this technology as the future for the AEC industry to centralise 3d model data and compute power.
@@CraftComputing depending on the size of the garage that could have been a hefty run of cable just theorizing here what about wifi repeater for it in the garage
Funny, I actually just set up a similar thing for the same kind of video editing workload for my partner a couple weeks ago. We use Sunshine with Moonlight on their little anemic laptop, giving access to my rack mount VM host with a 3090 in it. It’s been working well! Though I’m doing a vanilla pass through with VFIO so it’s just one user per card, so I can’t do any remote gaming if they happen to be editing. Thinking about looking into vgpu unlock for that, although those kinds of third party hacks make me nervous, I really wish nvidia supported sr-iov on their consumer cards! I’ve been considering a low end Arc card for av1 transcoding once our client devices can support that format (our vm host doubles as a media server, naturally), but if Intel came out and supported this kind of thing on their higher-end non-enterprise cards, man… I’d never buy from any other manufacturers. I agree that VDI will only get bigger and we’re likely to see more regular people using VDI solutions, especially at work, but I’m not convinced it will make things much easier for self-hosting enthusiasts, particularly people like me who don’t want Windows as their hypervisor, either for principled or practical reasons. But hey, the self-hosting community’s ingenuity has surprised me before.
I use multiple vGPU-enabled VMs on a Tesla T4 as my daily driver all running on my home lab. I agree this technology shouldn’t be enterprise only. I used non-hardware accelerated VMs for a year and it was intolerable at 4k resolution. I have no desire to ever go back to that, nor do I desire to have a fistful of idle desktops with stranded resources sitting around sucking up power. I don’t agree that this setup is super expensive-this can be done with a Ryzen CPU and a Tesla P4 and vGPU unlock script and be very accessible in terms of dollars. But it’s definitely not a setup for the faint of heart; it breaks more often than most people would tolerate and when it’s your daily driver that’s a big deal.
For remote video editing... doesn't every scrub and test-play of the video transmit a bespoke copy of the video, chewing through whatever bandwidth was saved by not copying the source material? Wouldn't it be better to use a client-server application to encode and transfer a motion thumbnail and xfer each source video once? I think web3.0 may be suited for this.
Yes and no. One benefit of the remote editing which Jeff mentioned is that you can start right away without needing to transfer anything first. You can also work with computationally expensive effects with a low-powered client device.
@@eDoc2020 Firstly, without xfering anything you can't get image data to display something, so there is no getting started without doing some kind of transfer. You can stream video files remotely, you can even seek to the middle(not by time without an index, but by size and then finding what looks like a packet) and pickup from there. I do understand that this isn't part of any currently available video editing suite, but asking for a "open from remote SMB share, but copy into a local cache" is a reasonable ask.
@@cheako91155 Yes you need data transfer to start, but by editing remotely you don't need data before then. Accessing the video files remotely over WAN is going to be much higher latency because it will take multiple trips back and forth to locate the exact location needed in the file. "Open from remote SMB, then copy to local cache" is an example of proxy editing which already exists. It has the downside that you won't get the highest quality still frames unless you store full-quality on the client device which is expensive.
@@eDoc2020 "is expensive", like xfering the video data *multiple times... It's cheaper, even though expensive. * How much cheaper would doing it that way need to be for it to make sense, too much is the answer. While editing you play the video many times, for you to get ahead of a one-time xfer things need to be more than that many times more efficient, it isn't.
Anyone have suggestions for a home lab, where I am both trying to get best bang-for-the-buck but also stay reasonably power efficient? I've got two clustered Hyper-V hosts, would love to be able to have GPU acceleration in a few of my VMs and potentially experiment with cloud-gaming. Already looked at the P4 (~$215 on eBay) and AMD RX 6400--from what I can tell the P4 is more expensive but far more powerful.
I'm also running proxmox and have passed through a Tesla M40 vGPU to a windows 10 VM running Parsec, but I've noticed Parsec only gives me the option to use software encoding/decoding. Have you encountered this?
Complete shot in the dark here: which drivers are used on the VM? M40, or Geforce drivers? If I recall correctly, Jeff had a video that showed how to get Windows to view the virtualized Teslas as GeForce cards. Perhaps that could be a path to explore?
@@MarthSR I'm using the Drivers for a Quadro M6000 following the instruction from the video you're referencing. I'm wondering if the issue is it doesn't see a physical monitor connected 🤔
It is a discrace that Intel does not have SRIOV on ARC A750 cards despite the iGPU having it FFS! oh and i cannot pass through ARC A750 from kvm to Windows VM either! i have tried i get Code 43
Yes, run vnc server in your VM (or any other remote desktop server) and just boot the old machine on Linux with autologin enabled and with vnc (or equivalent) as one of the login tasks (i.e. put it in the .bashrc). I'm sure that you can do the same on windows and/or using other remote desktop applications better than vnc, but that's what I use. BTW I believe Parsec is one of the best options, much better than vnc if you plan to play games, as shown in these videos.
A lot of usecases actually 1) Our control software for a huge hundrets of dollars worth wood drying chamber, only supports windows 7. Which at this points is EOL, and unsafe to leave open to the internet. So it would be great to just create an VM with usb device passthrough. 2) Marketing team has a lot of pc's which use software like photoshop or corel. Thats would be great to just make them an VM to play with without need to manage their client stations that often beacause of some idiot running suspicious software on their local machine 3) Engineering team using CAD, that's preety much self explainatory. It would be also easier to have an VM for them. Because these are in another city, which is 3 hour drive every time someone says "well a green light is on", so you have to ride there to find out that it's not, and some idiot was just too lazy to come and actually watch what's going on and press a freaking button
> Johnson Controls Oh gawd their shit is borked. We ended up forcing them to make us a self contain package of the java app with its own java portable.
I've been doing something like this for ripping movies and music. My laptop doesn't have a disc drive but my server does so I X forward MakeMKV and Asunder to my laptop.
I got big into Linux Terminal Services many years ago... tiny desktop clients hosted on a home server... I loved it... thin and fat clients... the technology should be awesome for home users these days... however... I think companies would hate the day a single household has a single server and very cheap client systems to do "everything" from... maybe that is the reason for personalised desktops with RGB... perhaps Thin Clients need RGB!! ...lol
"A deployment scenario most corporate ITs are unfortunately familiar with: local java applications"
*vietnam flasbacks*
**hugs**
"Hello darkness my old friend.. "
This triggered my sysadmin PTSD
I still run a Dell R610, send help...
"Kill it! Kill it with fire!" I will never fully recover. My career would have been different had I known in 1989. 😂
Cloud gaming server series is still going strong after years. I was wondering about a VMWare VDI kind of alternative for home lab
Actually took this to the extreme and ripped apart my gaming PC, put together a rack mount server and setup a gaming vm with GPU passthrough because of these videos. But found the biggest benifit for me is the fact you can switch OSs with GPU passthrough being the biggest thing. Being able to play games then switch to Kali and have a full GPU for password auditing is awesome
any advice for someone looking to do this? I am getting kinda annoyed with gaming on linux.
Geez daddy. Take it down a notch!
I remember 2003 Aldo trying to figure out GPU accelerated VDI for CAD work.
Now 19 yrs later, I'm a veteran in the VDI/Cloud industry and a Citrix long-time employee.
I understand and Share your passion, Jeff 👍👌
how do I get there? I'm starting out with my very basic proxmox homelab, first personal site, etc
what do you recommend to get more into it?
What he said
@@mscd9676 search your passion and convert it to a career. Start with small companies and learn the technologies in-and-out. Your future will build itself that way
@@mscd9676 The advide Aldo gave is absolutely true, go to work to small companies that allow you to grow. However don't fell into comfort, keep getting better! Eventually after several years into the industry, being in several different companies, you can just apply to whatever company you like the most and they will surely hire you, as your resume and skills will surely impress. Be passionate and grind several years without letting companies get your soul!
Do you know when Citrix will handle varying DPI across monitors on the same workstation ? This problem makes us either use only two 4K monitors or a 1080p monitor along with laptop if DPI are the same both displays are readable, but if they differ Citrix clicks where the mouse pointer isn't.🙃
I really enjoyed your comments about Java. Working as an IT Admin / Support person for nearly 23 years now if someone said to me what would be the most annoying thing that comes up? I would also have said Java. Windows update breaks it and having to support loads of in house apps that need a specific version of Java has been a nightmare. Thankfully we seem to be moving away from it now and for the few apps I do support the latest Java build works with all of them.
First time watching something on this channel. And I am just... bewildered at the review at the end. Like, we just came from talking about computers and networking and now we talking about double peanut butter and double chocolate beer? I need to watch more stuff like this honestly.
Never heard clearer truth!
I had no idea you were being such a pioneer in bringing this sort of knowledge and skillset to the regular consumer/enthusiast crowd online. Good on you for pursuing this for as long as you have
The idea of using a single server for multiple users excites me. I have a large family, and each kid needs a terminal for homework, etc., and sometimes will benefit from a GPU or other resources. I doubt all of them will ever all need a full computer (with licenses, etc.) at the same time.
guess what , I am trying to suggest this guy that multiseat software is a good solution .
This guy tho just ain't very enthusiastic bout it
I personally use parsec to remote into my home and school workstations from anywhere. I require a lot of compute power for my schoolwork which requires virtualization. It is also more cost effective since I don’t need a powerful laptop!
Remote in and have 10 cores 20 threads and 64GB of ram just like that! It’s awesome!
Cloud Gaming and VDI is a must have for our very small school. I can only imagine how the fleets of chromebooks that big schools deployed would be sustained and enhanced by VDI access to big apps and secure data lakes.
We sell Citrix XenApp and have multiuser desktops sharing a GPU, these each run rendering software for architecture firms with full rendered scenes for live visualization for their customers. I forget which GPU model they use, but it turns out that CPU core counts is the limiter due to scene object counts. We also use published apps, something I’ve done too with RDS.
This informations are really useful, and the fact you can get them out in under 20 minutes is amazing.
Thanks!
This is literally exactly what I need. The work that I am getting of the ground involves video editing, 3d and 2d modeling and programming. Right now I am a one man band so remoting into a powerful windows VM on my server that has the relevant resources is much more attractive than building tailors machines. If all goes well and I find myself needing help than this situation is only amplified. I am a small entity and don't have those deep pockets so yeah home users need this technology. I also have the same use case as you did with your CNC, but with a 3d printer.
The content you make is now why I run my own plex server in an old Dell r510 12 bay with dual x5670s and just doing basic homelab and file server stuff is fucking amazing how well truenas works for they specific use case
Right before the pandemic hit we were running Autodesk Revit on VDI's at our company. We had no loss of business continuity thankts to this. Needless to say, I'm a fan of the this tech :) We've since ditched our own hardware and are running on our service provider's hardware.
With the evolution of cloud platforms (Autodesk Collab for example) we're considering to switching back to (mobile) phat clients. Stability of the machines is somewhat of an issue and it is very sensitive to network latency.
Thank you for making this video. From your info-packed, rapid fire, speech style I learned a lot more about what more I need to learn.
I use to know a girl who got VDI from lots of remote access.
This is why you should never implicitly trust new connections. Always run antivirus before unzipping.
I think what you called AppV was really RemoteApp. AppV ran the virtualized environment on the local user’s device, not a server. It was great for getting old applications working on newer operating systems.
AHH this explains my confusion.
I think you might be right. Although I don't remember using remoteapp with client OS only server os's
@@TheWebstaff RemoteApp (the server component of it) works on win Pro and Enterprise editions from XP onwards.
Obviously the client can be whatever Windows version
We really need a better head solution for our VDI endeavors than just Parsec and Moonlight. Really don’t understand why QEMU team doesn’t make an application for video accelerated remote access.
that's the guest's responsibility not the hypervisor
@@orthodoxNPC The hypervisor is responsible for transferring the guest's console. Currently if you want GPU acceleration to work right with Moonlight you need to disable the emulated video adapter, meaning you lose video access if the guest crashes.
@@eDoc2020 3d accleration the guest is reponsible
@@orthodoxNPC The emulated video adapter is 2d only, there's no 3d acceleration going on.
@@eDoc2020 iommu, only people concerned with software 3d are pirates
What I most want in the VDI space is to use a single GPU to transcode Plex with NVENC or whatever hardware encoder while also playing a game from a VM on the server. Right now, I can't share a GPU with a docker container like Plex and a VM at the same time.
On Windows you can use Easy Gpu-P too archive this. Works great. Craft computing even has a video on it.
The Achilles heel of VDI, still locked up tighter than the Caramilk secret after so long. AMD's MXGPU had my hopes up a few years ago, but their choice of keeping it exclusive to the big guys is just as dirty as NVIDIA's licensing model. Multi-GPU adapters in passthrough still seems to be the best option for the Xen crowd (that don't want to get in bed with Citrix again, we just got over that rash).
Jeezus...you just helped me out IMMENSELY!! Thanks for hitting me with that bolt of lightning as well...the stupid sh!t I've tried to run my Lightburn (with 4k cam as well) from across the house is mind bottling!
Hey Jeff, wanted to say thank you for this video. I am studying the Dell EMC Infomation Storage and Management.
I am creating a Flow Chart of all of the modules and am using this as a reference to VDI [Virtual Desk Infrastructure] and Daas[Desktop as a Service]
Cheers for the good content as allways
The consumer market for intel/amd/nvidia is very small compared to the hyperscaler market, for which the large players are amazon, ms, google, ibm etc. These large players are buying billions of dollars worth of hardware from these guys. The only reason we dont have sr-iov on consumer cards (IMO) is because the hyperscalers wont allow it. They want you to 'rent' cloud resources, not create your own private cloud.
its amazing you mention VDI. I only follow you for some homelab stuff. I am a refrigeration engineer that needs to connect to the largest supermarket grocer in the US that use s a setup using "VDI" that requires a java web applet to log in locally. I chuckled quite a bit with your subtle jokes.
As much as I would like to run a game server vm with passthrough, the last time I tried it the power consumption of the gpu when the vm was not in use was sky high. I actually used less power with a Windows VM spun up with gpu passthrough and the Windows drivers allow the gpu to go into low power mode. Not sure if this behavior has changed with different hypervisors or nvidia drivers.
There is a spaceinvader one video that deals with this in unraid using a script to put it in low power mode. Perhaps that could help you.
The windows paravirtualization seems like the best solution for home users but I have never really heard you talk about it again. Is the performance bad?
As always I really appreciate your insights, Jeff. Will you please discuss network latency and input lag, particularly as it affects users connecting from afar and not the local network?
I have run into problems with Maya and Mudbox being unusable in a virtualized environment due to input lag. Certain actions are highly sensitive to latency more than a few milliseconds.
(Pass through of Wacom input has also been a problem -- but that is a separate issue.)
I’m doing the same but not as well thought out so far. My sever is in my Caselabs M8 that I have been building out for over 10 years. This was originally bought as a watercooling beast but as time has gone on my needs have changed and as I downscaled on size of my house and as a free a family I decided to start using it as a watercooled server. Watercooling mainly as an additional challenge and because it’s fun. But seeing as how it’s also located in a living space I also enjoy how quiet it is.
It has 22 2.5” hotswap SSDs and 8 HDDs.
That Many SSDs for VMs, Plex/jellyfin metadata, and ISCSI drives for other computers in the house.
I’ll add a disk shelf if I ever need more.
Mine is running on UnRaid and I have a Gaming Windows 10VM. Then I also run dockers for Plex, Jellyfin, Pi-Hole, Wireguard, and more.
It’s amazing how many uses you can find for a server.
I would love to see SR-IOV on some consumer cards even in limited capacity. Especially because the new crop of ATX boards seem to have 1x PCIe 5.0 slot x16, 1x PCIe 4.0 x 16, and if you are lucky maybe one more x16 size but with very limited bandwidth.
If you want to do an internal HBA, external HBA(for disk shelf), then 1-2 more GPUs then you have to look at Threadripper 3000 or older or worse X299 at this point.
At least PCIe 3.0 doesn’t really have much an issue with gaming performance but with direct play coming down the pipes and the need for faster speeds for storage might be needed
I use my form of VDI to remote into my cloud development machine. I am a full stack developer and this allows me to use a very light and entry-level laptop with very good battery life to work for 8 hours straight on a battery charge. Besides that the laptop uses Ubuntu and I can log into my remote Mac and develop iOS applications.
So what is the solution that I can use to remote desktop from my ipad to my workstation?
Am I the only one thinking it's about time Jeff brews his own beer? :P
Very interesting video. One of my client uses Citrix web interface for vdi launching. What I would be interested in now is how to setup the remote VDI secure launching and how do you handle multiple users: do we need to have one VDI per user (meaning that proxmox has one VM per user) or is there a way to have a template VM that can adapt on the each user (desktop, c drive etc…) depending on the username who logs-in (like a generic VM usable for all users and proxmox would re-instanciate if all such existing VMs are already being used)?
Awesome video Jeff! Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
What a timely video. I have a dream: A hardware puck with triple monitor outputs and a few usb ports. Something like a steamlink puck but more ports.
Then you just log in with your username and use it as a terminal that remotes into the central computer. It's as fast or slow as the amount of concurrent users and their tasks.
I feel like we are very close to getting this to work with a "retired parents" level of usability and ease.
id be nice to see a video on what consumer hardware the m40, p4 or higher can run on and what workarounds you come up with. all the AI advancements like stable diffusion has caused a rush to high memory GPUs and the M40 (i speak from experience) does not play well with older or even current hardware. cant speak to the P4 as im watching the GPU market right now and hoping to score a few P40s or better soon.
I intend for my laptop to basically be my cheap home server.
It will always run a web browser, plex server, and on-demand apps that I want to stream to my other computer over the local network (like Doom Emacs).
Any news or updates on it? With the new nvidia toolkit for containers I do wonder.
Do you think there will be vgpu unlock for the 4000 series?
Which one would be the first one to go down. The server, the lights or the beer fridge?
Lights. No question.
wondering how i would make program or any way other than rdp to open applications exlusive mode or what its called
As Java developer who wrote some of those desktop apps for configuration back in the day, including ones for the telecom industry. I'm both sorry and not sorry. I'm not sorry because at the time it really was the best tool for the job (not applets though, those weren't ever a good idea). I am sorry because not everyone who was writing those apps had any skill for it. It was a different time, people of no skill or training somehow would get sat in front of a computer and told "Make this mission critical app". Powerful software development systems like Java were given to people who had absolutely no experience with anything like it and expected to do amazing things.
We had a term for this back in the day, "cluster truck". Actually, it wasn't a cluster truck but something else that sounds very similar.
So yeah, lots of us did our best but It was just too ahead of its time and missed its mark.
To me the only problem on VDI for gamming is the anti-cheats problem. Some games doesn’t work on VMs… Any bypasse to this ac problems?
For gaming the easiest way is to run on bare hardware.
Regarding gaming on a VM, have you noticed any issues with stuff like anti-cheat?
many anti-cheats don't play nice with running in VMs. stick to single player stuff and you should be fine though
this is my biggest issue. going to build a cheap rig for all my esport multiplayer games. and then have cloud set up for all my singleplayer and games that don't have anticheat
Currently running a poweredge t430 with a 1050 ti for wife and I to game/3dmodel/3dprint with and k620 for blue iris transcoding. Works mostly well. Excited to see where the next few years go.
Edit: ok big question. How are you handling licensing these days? Just got a volume license for your vids?
How are you liking that so far? I have a t320 I’m thinking of trying it with. I have an r 620 that I’m setting up right now but for the rest of the fam an m40 or m80 24gig on the t320 might just work for their Minecraft
Please explain the limitations such as no VULCAN and OPENGL support. Is there something I am missing?
i have one video request regarding vdi
i want to set up my main rig as a cloud accesible machine through a cheap laptop
why spending tons of money in a laptop when you can buy a really efficient arm based laptop or chromebook and access your main rig power through the cloud, thats what i been thinking lately, i tried parsec but i think i messed up the configuration, can you make a video about this? i think having your main desktop accessible anywhere could be of great help
Your beer placement makes me nervous.
Every post is a thriller - will he spill on the hardware?
Post the B-roll!
Have you tried SteamOS headless with RemotePlay/Steam Link ?
Do you have a video on that Tesla air cooler? Would love to see more about it.
That intro kinda reminded me about that book I read... wet dreams by I. P. Knightly
5:30 Nope that's not what I was thinking. I was actually thinking, "how long before the security weenee says, nope we cant have XP running on anything."
How do you recommend getting into and choosing a budget rack server (looking to replace my nas with a budget server)? Where to start? I’m looking for something to fit 22” deep. Is there a way to easily find the dimensions of rack servers? What brand? Which processor family?
I don't see any mention of this in comments and maybe I have missed something from other videos but where can I get my hands on that 3d printed case for the m60 with the fans on the bottom side of the card?! I have hated the idea of buying one of these kinds of cards because of how loud it would be with a little duct and fan.
Do you have a cheap gpu you would recommend for plex?
Do you know of an remote gaming app, that got on screen controls that you can customise?
I recently have been using my M40 for video editing as well. I am a little disappointed Davinci Resolve only seems to hit the card for 30% utilization when rendering. My server still can't make a decent cup of tea though.
You are the best bud, I cant wait to turn my old threadrippers into servers
Just a quick question about vGPU Unlock: is it required NOT to use a license server or am I missing something? Thanks
Okay Jeff, which video shows how you're getting Cyberpunk 2077, RT on and 60fps virtually? I'm trying to spec out a server for the following uses cases:
- NAS storage to run a Steam library (iSCSI most likely)
- Home Media server for my digital movies, shows (jellyfin most likely)
- Remote gaming for my wife or a guest to run Steam games on other devices (she has an iMac)
Would the following do it:
Xeon E5-2697v3, 256GB RAM
RTX 2080 Super (I own that, but should I consider a Quadro P5000 or Tesla P4 *need cooling solution )
Chenbro T580 40GBe direct from the server to my desktop PC, 1Gbe for the rest of the network
Bunch of spinning rust for Raidz1 or z2 storage
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!
I dont really play online, but is there any issues with getting bans when using VM's in proxmox for gaming?
Im not done watching this series but definitely slap a #43 racing sticker on the side of the case to commemorate all the code 043 issues of the past
Thanks for the flashbacks to the XP/Johnson Control/Java / Air Conditioning and Heating/ remote desktop/...
I am trying to game on my home PC, while im not at home. Currently i use Parsec, but it is limited to 1080p and 60FPS. Also it can't use AV1, yet.
Does anyone know some easy alternatives?
Steam Link?
Probably not worth it, because the latency introduced by the network and the video encoding and decoding will feel equally slow as when you play at 60fps.
@@thomashenry8006 I don't own that. And i forgot to say, but i also do other things then gaming while using Parsec. :D
Even watching Movies, since i don't have to transfer the Data and so on.
The quest continues for liquid peanut butta!
Hey, sorry to bother... First time long time. I've been browsing your videos, what is the best enterprise GPU solution to vm game that you've come across sub $300?
Fascinating topic and 1 I have following for some years. Put it to the side for a while due to hardware limitations and economics.
I foresee this technology as the future for the AEC industry to centralise 3d model data and compute power.
7:50 couldn't you just plug the dedicated PC to your servers via cable I'm sure that you have at least one extra port somewhere in a switch there?
At the time, my CNC was on the other side of the garage. Moving to the VM was part of the upgrade.
@@CraftComputing depending on the size of the garage that could have been a hefty run of cable just theorizing here what about wifi repeater for it in the garage
Funny, I actually just set up a similar thing for the same kind of video editing workload for my partner a couple weeks ago. We use Sunshine with Moonlight on their little anemic laptop, giving access to my rack mount VM host with a 3090 in it. It’s been working well! Though I’m doing a vanilla pass through with VFIO so it’s just one user per card, so I can’t do any remote gaming if they happen to be editing. Thinking about looking into vgpu unlock for that, although those kinds of third party hacks make me nervous, I really wish nvidia supported sr-iov on their consumer cards! I’ve been considering a low end Arc card for av1 transcoding once our client devices can support that format (our vm host doubles as a media server, naturally), but if Intel came out and supported this kind of thing on their higher-end non-enterprise cards, man… I’d never buy from any other manufacturers.
I agree that VDI will only get bigger and we’re likely to see more regular people using VDI solutions, especially at work, but I’m not convinced it will make things much easier for self-hosting enthusiasts, particularly people like me who don’t want Windows as their hypervisor, either for principled or practical reasons. But hey, the self-hosting community’s ingenuity has surprised me before.
Speaking of cloud gaming, have you posted any content regarding the death of Stadia?
Where did you get that STAR TREK: The Original Series font???
It's called Final Frontier.
My logo uses Neuropolitical, which is based on the DS9 font :-)
@@CraftComputing where can I get these fonts from all things Trek?
I use multiple vGPU-enabled VMs on a Tesla T4 as my daily driver all running on my home lab. I agree this technology shouldn’t be enterprise only. I used non-hardware accelerated VMs for a year and it was intolerable at 4k resolution. I have no desire to ever go back to that, nor do I desire to have a fistful of idle desktops with stranded resources sitting around sucking up power.
I don’t agree that this setup is super expensive-this can be done with a Ryzen CPU and a Tesla P4 and vGPU unlock script and be very accessible in terms of dollars. But it’s definitely not a setup for the faint of heart; it breaks more often than most people would tolerate and when it’s your daily driver that’s a big deal.
For remote video editing... doesn't every scrub and test-play of the video transmit a bespoke copy of the video, chewing through whatever bandwidth was saved by not copying the source material? Wouldn't it be better to use a client-server application to encode and transfer a motion thumbnail and xfer each source video once? I think web3.0 may be suited for this.
Yes and no. One benefit of the remote editing which Jeff mentioned is that you can start right away without needing to transfer anything first. You can also work with computationally expensive effects with a low-powered client device.
@@eDoc2020 Firstly, without xfering anything you can't get image data to display something, so there is no getting started without doing some kind of transfer. You can stream video files remotely, you can even seek to the middle(not by time without an index, but by size and then finding what looks like a packet) and pickup from there. I do understand that this isn't part of any currently available video editing suite, but asking for a "open from remote SMB share, but copy into a local cache" is a reasonable ask.
@@eDoc2020 Many applications already support render farms, so I don't see how RDP gives some advantage over dedicated protocols.
@@cheako91155 Yes you need data transfer to start, but by editing remotely you don't need data before then. Accessing the video files remotely over WAN is going to be much higher latency because it will take multiple trips back and forth to locate the exact location needed in the file. "Open from remote SMB, then copy to local cache" is an example of proxy editing which already exists. It has the downside that you won't get the highest quality still frames unless you store full-quality on the client device which is expensive.
@@eDoc2020 "is expensive", like xfering the video data *multiple times... It's cheaper, even though expensive. * How much cheaper would doing it that way need to be for it to make sense, too much is the answer. While editing you play the video many times, for you to get ahead of a one-time xfer things need to be more than that many times more efficient, it isn't.
Can you run a headless Tesla as your main GPU without virtualization? Like run it through an iGPU like they did with Nvidia Optimus on laptops?
Yes!
ua-cam.com/video/Z5Isf6Airo0/v-deo.html
Virtual Terminal Servers or VDI with GPU for CAD/SolidWorks/etc… on VMWare. Just without the hassle.
".. as always, I'mmmm Jeff".. and when he's not Jeff he turns into Chris or Mike after he's been drinking a few beers.
I can tell you that the most current version of Metasys still needs java on the server to run :(
$17 seems like too much :/ I am happy though your patreon works 😂
What's worse - Java, or ActiveX?
Running Parsec Teams?
Loved this! thank you
Anyone have suggestions for a home lab, where I am both trying to get best bang-for-the-buck but also stay reasonably power efficient? I've got two clustered Hyper-V hosts, would love to be able to have GPU acceleration in a few of my VMs and potentially experiment with cloud-gaming. Already looked at the P4 (~$215 on eBay) and AMD RX 6400--from what I can tell the P4 is more expensive but far more powerful.
@Craftcomputing wouldn't a 30 series gpu work better then a m60 for editing
Sure, but I use vGPU to split the second M60 die for gaming machines for my kids and their friends.
Cloud gaming is better than a normal PC. I also sold my PC and using Shadow. I save energy, have no hardware Problems and can use where ever I want.
Jeff, any word on intels new enterprise arc gpus?
All I can say is stay tuned.
@@CraftComputing ok, you have my attention. They haven’t really been on my radar til now.
Is remote app the same as app v?
Yes, because if there's one thing Microsoft loves, it's naming continuity.
I was a Citrix installer back in the day...
That $17 bottle of beer is an entire balanced meal.
Part of a balanced breakfast!
what is the minimum upload speed have to be to make this work good?
Parsec suggests 10Mb/s per stream
I'm also running proxmox and have passed through a Tesla M40 vGPU to a windows 10 VM running Parsec, but I've noticed Parsec only gives me the option to use software encoding/decoding. Have you encountered this?
Complete shot in the dark here: which drivers are used on the VM? M40, or Geforce drivers? If I recall correctly, Jeff had a video that showed how to get Windows to view the virtualized Teslas as GeForce cards. Perhaps that could be a path to explore?
@@MarthSR I'm using the Drivers for a Quadro M6000 following the instruction from the video you're referencing. I'm wondering if the issue is it doesn't see a physical monitor connected 🤔
It is a discrace that Intel does not have SRIOV on ARC A750 cards despite the iGPU having it FFS! oh and i cannot pass through ARC A750 from kvm to Windows VM either! i have tried i get Code 43
Is it possible to boot a pc directly into a vm. Like setup a vm on proxmox, then have an older machine boot directly into that vm?
Yes, run vnc server in your VM (or any other remote desktop server) and just boot the old machine on Linux with autologin enabled and with vnc (or equivalent) as one of the login tasks (i.e. put it in the .bashrc). I'm sure that you can do the same on windows and/or using other remote desktop applications better than vnc, but that's what I use.
BTW I believe Parsec is one of the best options, much better than vnc if you plan to play games, as shown in these videos.
They're called thin clients... You can run a super light version of Debian on the system with an auto start vnc or rdp session
yes just install a cut down linux that just starts the client on boot full screen
I was like "yes, yes, I know all of that, show me new and exciting ways in which the situation has changed!" and then the video just ended 😕
"Cyberpunk 2077 at 4K running at well over 60 FPS" with well over 70ms of lag from input to screen
A lot of usecases actually
1) Our control software for a huge hundrets of dollars worth wood drying chamber, only supports windows 7. Which at this points is EOL, and unsafe to leave open to the internet. So it would be great to just create an VM with usb device passthrough.
2) Marketing team has a lot of pc's which use software like photoshop or corel. Thats would be great to just make them an VM to play with without need to manage their client stations that often beacause of some idiot running suspicious software on their local machine
3) Engineering team using CAD, that's preety much self explainatory. It would be also easier to have an VM for them. Because these are in another city, which is 3 hour drive every time someone says "well a green light is on", so you have to ride there to find out that it's not, and some idiot was just too lazy to come and actually watch what's going on and press a freaking button
could that work for VR gaming as well?
I don't think so, the extra latency will make you sick. VR requires immediate visual feedback matching your head movements.
> Johnson Controls
Oh gawd their shit is borked. We ended up forcing them to make us a self contain package of the java app with its own java portable.
Must be super handy if you’re doing any pen testing type of work
I've been doing something like this for ripping movies and music. My laptop doesn't have a disc drive but my server does so I X forward MakeMKV and Asunder to my laptop.
I got big into Linux Terminal Services many years ago... tiny desktop clients hosted on a home server... I loved it... thin and fat clients... the technology should be awesome for home users these days... however... I think companies would hate the day a single household has a single server and very cheap client systems to do "everything" from... maybe that is the reason for personalised desktops with RGB... perhaps Thin Clients need RGB!! ...lol