For anyone looking for a good discussion on "Culture of Honor," I'd recommend starting with The Remnant Radio's video: ua-cam.com/users/live7XlUPjWRqpc?si=qO93Boba_dQ48cis It's a very good evaluation and explores the various biblical-theological issues with a pastoral eye. Highly recommend!
This is the most clarifying, freeing conversation and I needed to hear it so bad. Almost 7 years of my life on the fringes of this movement and it’s so clear. My hope in the church is restored by this convo! Thank you. Nicole, Redding Ca.
My family sat under Alan Scott's leadership for over 3 years. By the time we decided that we could no longer stay, I was convinced that Alan was a manipulative narcissist with a massive ego. He spent more time inviting people to leave than he spent trying to bring people in. He stated multiple times that they (he) were developing a certain culture (or cult, in my opinion) and if you didn't agree with the direction he was taking us, we were free to leave. He also continuously disparaged the previous leadership, claiming that God had brought him in to restore a broken church and ministry. Alan also stated on several occasions that those who are offended by him are offended at God because he's His anointed one. I could go on, but I'll just end by saying that we thank God that we got out of there when we did.
We were on the "co-discerning team" of the now-defunct Edinburgh (Scotland) Vineyard (a new one has been setup since.) We left when we realised that the leader was just telling everyone whatever he felt they wanted to hear. Shortly after we left he eviscerated what was left of the church by telling them (in person, and in writing - I think I still have both the recording and emailed document somewhere) that he and his wife would heard from God and everyone else then had to do what he and his wife said. In the aftermath of us leaving we were asked to meet with Jamie Watters (leader of the Glasgow Vineyard - he took over after Alan Scott's brother had to quit due to an affair with a church member,) ostensibly to work on reconciliation, although it turned out he just wanted us to confirm that we were "for" our leader. He told us during this meeting that Alan was his protégé. He was quite blasé when telling us that his church has a "high turnover." He also told us during this meeting that "Christians need to settle their differences on Earth or, I truly believe, Heaven will be Hell for some." After he met with us he went straight to a meeting with a couple who are still our friends and he told them exactly the same thing, or else I'd think we'd imagined it. One more thing. I met Alan once (he'd been asked by our leader to vet us for potential leadership material) what his accent was (I'm always interested in accents I can't identify) and he told me he'd made it up as he thought people wouldn't understand his native Glaswegian accent. I think this speaks both to his falseness and ambition. p.s. If you've listened to the Premier podcast about Pilavachi you'll have heard my voice (and my brother's.) Man, have I been involved in some sketchy stuff... (apologies for the excessive use of brackets)
I recall Wimber, post preach, pray for folk in the venue. Nothing much happened. He prayed silently. He then walked off the stage. He walked through the door at the side of the stage. The door clicked behind him. The Holy Spirit came upon the congregation with visible power. Toward the end of his life he was not the "star" attractant. He went to a small church. He arrived home and Carol asked him how it went. John said there were (I think) around 20-25 people there. Carol was disappointed. John's reply was that numbers did not matter, because God showed up. He was excited that God showed up and privileged to be part of it. I saw Wimber at New Wine, preaching on Ephesians. He had to sit as cancer was so advanced. He was brilliant in his theology, and teaching. Wimber was humble. We need far more humility today by these so called pastors. The false teaching of so many, is so sad. I think that God's heart must be full of sorrow for the vulnerable whilst burning with anger against those whom he has gifted and appointed as pastors. There will be recompense for the vulnerable, and abused; and judgememt against the liars and falsehood of these pastors. I do not think that Scott is leading a cult. A cult prevents folk from leaving. Scott pushes folk out if they disagree. In the Moonies, as one example, those whom disagree are sent off to a camp for more training. There are elements of a cult. For example, no one is ever forced to join a cult. Everyone joins a cult willingly. Once they have joined indoctrination then begins. With Scott, there appears to be freedom to leave. With Hill-Song, Bethel, Scott etc... it is true that they are based around the worship experience, which is often a performance. Without this experience, there is no Hill-Song, Bethel or Scott movement. It is the pre-cursor to setting the scene for the preacher. Once someone is enmeshed within the worship experience and they feel that they have met with God, the listener to the preach can be told anything. They will often believe without question all that they are told. To question the preacher is to question God himself. This is the way it goes. A cult is not about the worship experience, it starts with unconditional acceptance of the vulnerable and unloved. Both Bethel, Hill-Song and The Mormon church, JWs, Moonies etc, are all based around emotion, but, there is a difference between the two and as to how they manipulate the emotive response. In the JWs, if you leave, your family cut you off, literally. The family members who remain in the JW movement, are told to have nothing to do with the leaver. They have to make a choice between "church" family and physical family. This can occur within the likes of Hill-Song, Bethel, Scott's church etc... but it is not an official stance, it is far more nuanced. In summary, it is distressing that this goes on. The world looks on with justifiably accusatory pointing fingers. This is all a distraction and these pastors do not realise that they are doing the will of the enemy of the church with such narcissistic behaviour. That is just so sad.
@loismagdy6682 Although I agree with you for most of this not all cults are the same. We see a rough graph of cults and expect them all to look, sound and act the same way but it can be slightly variable. Scott may not be forcing people to stay but he definitely has threatened, blackmailed, intimated and strategically made people want to leave or forced them out under his leadership. It's the same type of control tactics but for wanting people to go if that makes sense? We're so used to saying cults are only if no one is allowed to leave but I'd say he has created a culture that is just as ridiculous and toxic as other cults. Praying for the man! Praying for those who have been blamed and hurt by him who though the world of him and his ministry.
“There is no good trying to be more spiritual than God. God never meant man to be a purely spiritual creature. That is why He uses material things like bread and wine to put the new life into us. We may think this rather crude and unspiritual. God does not: He invented eating. He likes matter. He invented it.” C.S. Lewis
as Im listening tothis, I always ask God Questions, first about witnessing to people on the street and the pastor would get upset when no testimonies came back? my? is this, after Jesus ministered he went and hid in the crowd!!!! He did come back and tell his disciples, Hey had a great time witnessing. jeus hid himself! Why? because he wanted God to get the glory!!!
What Bethel tells new people from Vineyard is that Bethel has taken what John Wimber and brought it to a whole new level. After spending a year there, the only levels I saw being raised were in hype, marketing, and obsession with manifestations. All that you're talking about, with regard to the lack of pastoring, is straight Bethel. Danny Silk told our class that pastors are there to tell you what you want to hear and make you happy and that if that's what we wanted, he knew of a good church down the road we could attend.
Yes. Jeremy Riddle left the Dwelling Place. He seemingly has hinted through some reporting by Roys that he didn't agree with some of Alan's leadership, but has PUBLICLY only affirmed and approved of it.
Yes, in late 2023. He gave no real reason for his departure, but he landed in a church that is very similar to Dwelling Place, and so most folks seem to believe he left because associating with Alan was hurting his brand.
Just listen to Alan preach… if you have any discernment at all…you will see right thru him. Acting like he’s pulling diamonds out of the Bible that no one else could figure out. The biggest mistake made was the good people of vineyard left.. we should have stayed and forced that coward to leave.
Alan and Jeremy don't care about reputation."The silver is mine and the gold is mine, declares the Lord." Nothing was stolen. The Lord Himself took it back...to use for mission in these last days. That's why half the church isn't on their seats 😂 we're not meant to be there. We're meant to be on the outside of those walls.
I’ll be praying for all of you . Brad , Noah, Cynthia, Jeremy, Allan .. this whole thing is incredibly sad . The enemy will pin brother against brother ..
There’s nothing biblical about attacking the Lord’s house on UA-cam. These conversations should always be private. We are one Church. An attack on any pastor is an attack on His church and His body. I say this so more do not follow this example. The body of Christ belongs to Christ. Who among us is willing to disparage the bride before the Bridegroom?
Must have been a tough time of your life being a newly married couple, so much change at this time of life at the best of times. Could this, along with a general culture of entitlement as millennials/gen z be part of the issue of misrepresenting the way some people lead? Alan is a human, he isn’t the Lord, definitely check out the passage where the speck of dust / plank of wood is referenced. We must be quick to deal with our sin, and slow to comment on others. This seems a fairly angry and a shouty topic about others sin, it’s sad and a shame these channels exist to promote their own brands. Praying for unity and peace. One church. One Savour. His name is Jesus.
This is a perfect example of how someone overlooks and empowers spiritual abusers by using Scripture to undermine OTHER passages of Scripture that encourage us to pursue justice and confront sinful abusive leadership. Our brand is Jesus and Jesus wants his church back and he also wants leaders to stop stop abusing people.
I agree we must call those in authority out, and hold them accountable, ultimately one day they will be held accountable (as we all will) but I suppose my question to this is, do we (you) have to do this so publicly?
We should pray for our leaders too. Even when we don’t agree with them. I am sure you know this, but this type of interview seems very common these day - let’s shame people publicly but really they need our prayers and ultimately God will call them to account. Or do we neglect other verses for only the ones which align to your channels purposes?
For anyone looking for a good discussion on "Culture of Honor," I'd recommend starting with The Remnant Radio's video: ua-cam.com/users/live7XlUPjWRqpc?si=qO93Boba_dQ48cis
It's a very good evaluation and explores the various biblical-theological issues with a pastoral eye. Highly recommend!
This is the most clarifying, freeing conversation and I needed to hear it so bad. Almost 7 years of my life on the fringes of this movement and it’s so clear. My hope in the church is restored by this convo! Thank you. Nicole, Redding Ca.
@@detoxARNP hey! Thanks for those encouraging words!
I live in Red Bluff… right down the road from you!
My family sat under Alan Scott's leadership for over 3 years. By the time we decided that we could no longer stay, I was convinced that Alan was a manipulative narcissist with a massive ego. He spent more time inviting people to leave than he spent trying to bring people in. He stated multiple times that they (he) were developing a certain culture (or cult, in my opinion) and if you didn't agree with the direction he was taking us, we were free to leave. He also continuously disparaged the previous leadership, claiming that God had brought him in to restore a broken church and ministry. Alan also stated on several occasions that those who are offended by him are offended at God because he's His anointed one. I could go on, but I'll just end by saying that we thank God that we got out of there when we did.
Yikes. Thats so crazy. I’m so sorry you had to sit through that garbage.
Yes he equates himself with God (if you're offended at me, you're offended at God). Yet his claims are not biblical. It is truly wicked behaviour.
Fantastic conversation. Thank you Luke and Brad.
We were on the "co-discerning team" of the now-defunct Edinburgh (Scotland) Vineyard (a new one has been setup since.)
We left when we realised that the leader was just telling everyone whatever he felt they wanted to hear. Shortly after we left he eviscerated what was left of the church by telling them (in person, and in writing - I think I still have both the recording and emailed document somewhere) that he and his wife would heard from God and everyone else then had to do what he and his wife said.
In the aftermath of us leaving we were asked to meet with Jamie Watters (leader of the Glasgow Vineyard - he took over after Alan Scott's brother had to quit due to an affair with a church member,) ostensibly to work on reconciliation, although it turned out he just wanted us to confirm that we were "for" our leader. He told us during this meeting that Alan was his protégé. He was quite blasé when telling us that his church has a "high turnover."
He also told us during this meeting that "Christians need to settle their differences on Earth or, I truly believe, Heaven will be Hell for some."
After he met with us he went straight to a meeting with a couple who are still our friends and he told them exactly the same thing, or else I'd think we'd imagined it.
One more thing. I met Alan once (he'd been asked by our leader to vet us for potential leadership material) what his accent was (I'm always interested in accents I can't identify) and he told me he'd made it up as he thought people wouldn't understand his native Glaswegian accent. I think this speaks both to his falseness and ambition.
p.s. If you've listened to the Premier podcast about Pilavachi you'll have heard my voice (and my brother's.) Man, have I been involved in some sketchy stuff...
(apologies for the excessive use of brackets)
Hey. Any chance we could connect? If you’d be open to it, you can email me lukegeraty AT GMAIL. Would love to connect a bit.
I recall Wimber, post preach, pray for folk in the venue.
Nothing much happened.
He prayed silently. He then walked off the stage. He walked through the door at the side of the stage. The door clicked behind him.
The Holy Spirit came upon the congregation with visible power.
Toward the end of his life he was not the "star" attractant.
He went to a small church.
He arrived home and Carol asked him how it went. John said there were (I think) around 20-25 people there.
Carol was disappointed.
John's reply was that numbers did not matter, because God showed up. He was excited that God showed up and privileged to be part of it.
I saw Wimber at New Wine, preaching on Ephesians. He had to sit as cancer was so advanced.
He was brilliant in his theology, and teaching.
Wimber was humble. We need far more humility today by these so called pastors.
The false teaching of so many, is so sad.
I think that God's heart must be full of sorrow for the vulnerable whilst burning with anger against those whom he has gifted and appointed as pastors.
There will be recompense for the vulnerable, and abused; and judgememt against the liars and falsehood of these pastors.
I do not think that Scott is leading a cult. A cult prevents folk from leaving.
Scott pushes folk out if they disagree.
In the Moonies, as one example, those whom disagree are sent off to a camp for more training.
There are elements of a cult. For example, no one is ever forced to join a cult. Everyone joins a cult willingly.
Once they have joined indoctrination then begins.
With Scott, there appears to be freedom to leave.
With Hill-Song, Bethel, Scott etc... it is true that they are based around the worship experience, which is often a performance.
Without this experience, there is no Hill-Song, Bethel or Scott movement.
It is the pre-cursor to setting the scene for the preacher.
Once someone is enmeshed within the worship experience and they feel that they have met with God, the listener to the preach can be told anything. They will often believe without question all that they are told.
To question the preacher is to question God himself.
This is the way it goes.
A cult is not about the worship experience, it starts with unconditional acceptance of the vulnerable and unloved.
Both Bethel, Hill-Song and The Mormon church, JWs, Moonies etc, are all based around emotion, but, there is a difference between the two and as to how they manipulate the emotive response.
In the JWs, if you leave, your family cut you off, literally. The family members who remain in the JW movement, are told to have nothing to do with the leaver.
They have to make a choice between "church" family and physical family.
This can occur within the likes of Hill-Song, Bethel, Scott's church etc... but it is not an official stance, it is far more nuanced.
In summary, it is distressing that this goes on. The world looks on with justifiably accusatory pointing fingers.
This is all a distraction and these pastors do not realise that they are doing the will of the enemy of the church with such narcissistic behaviour.
That is just so sad.
Really appreciate your take
@loismagdy6682 Although I agree with you for most of this not all cults are the same. We see a rough graph of cults and expect them all to look, sound and act the same way but it can be slightly variable. Scott may not be forcing people to stay but he definitely has threatened, blackmailed, intimated and strategically made people want to leave or forced them out under his leadership. It's the same type of control tactics but for wanting people to go if that makes sense? We're so used to saying cults are only if no one is allowed to leave but I'd say he has created a culture that is just as ridiculous and toxic as other cults. Praying for the man! Praying for those who have been blamed and hurt by him who though the world of him and his ministry.
42:07 It’s funny you say this, because I remember Jeremy Riddle telling me that he thought of Alan Scott as a hammer 😅
irony :)
So Jeremy is also two-faced? My gosh, what's going on??? Also- hi again Noah!!!
“There is no good trying to be more spiritual than God. God never meant man to be a purely spiritual creature. That is why He uses material things like bread and wine to put the new life into us. We may think this rather crude and unspiritual. God does not: He invented eating. He likes matter. He invented it.” C.S. Lewis
Yes yes yes!! Lewis for the win!
Is anyone else out there worried about Kathryn? Is she an equal in their partnership or is she spiritually abused too?
You mentioned a paper by John Wimber that included his 5 fold ministry thoughts... I'm assuming it's in one of the books that have his writings in it.
as Im listening tothis, I always ask God Questions, first about witnessing to people on the street and the pastor would get upset when no testimonies came back? my? is this, after Jesus ministered he went and hid in the crowd!!!! He did come back and tell his disciples, Hey had a great time witnessing. jeus hid himself! Why? because he wanted God to get the glory!!!
I think Paul called the "super stars" super apostles - basically false apostles.
What Bethel tells new people from Vineyard is that Bethel has taken what John Wimber and brought it to a whole new level. After spending a year there, the only levels I saw being raised were in hype, marketing, and obsession with manifestations. All that you're talking about, with regard to the lack of pastoring, is straight Bethel. Danny Silk told our class that pastors are there to tell you what you want to hear and make you happy and that if that's what we wanted, he knew of a good church down the road we could attend.
Is it true Jeremy Riddle left Dwelling place?
Yes. Jeremy Riddle left the Dwelling Place. He seemingly has hinted through some reporting by Roys that he didn't agree with some of Alan's leadership, but has PUBLICLY only affirmed and approved of it.
Yes, in late 2023. He gave no real reason for his departure, but he landed in a church that is very similar to Dwelling Place, and so most folks seem to believe he left because associating with Alan was hurting his brand.
@@johnkim7300which church???
@@johnkim7300where did he go??
Yes, be glad as he was under pseudo witchcraft at Bethel
Spirits guides and the whole 9 yards
Just listen to Alan preach… if you have any discernment at all…you will see right thru him. Acting like he’s pulling diamonds out of the Bible that no one else could figure out. The biggest mistake made was the good people of vineyard left.. we should have stayed and forced that coward to leave.
Diamonds? More like crap covered acorns. ha ha
Great work! (Just a note...please allow your guests to finish their statements. You seem to rush in to speak when they aren't done.)
😁
Alan and Jeremy don't care about reputation."The silver is mine and the gold is mine, declares the Lord." Nothing was stolen. The Lord Himself took it back...to use for mission in these last days. That's why half the church isn't on their seats 😂 we're not meant to be there. We're meant to be on the outside of those walls.
I’ll be praying for all of you . Brad , Noah, Cynthia, Jeremy, Allan .. this whole thing is incredibly sad .
The enemy will pin brother against brother ..
A person who is not a pastor has no claim to be an apostle
There’s nothing biblical about attacking the Lord’s house on UA-cam.
These conversations should always be private. We are one Church. An attack on any pastor is an attack on His church and His body.
I say this so more do not follow this example. The body of Christ belongs to Christ. Who among us is willing to disparage the bride before the Bridegroom?
What church do you attend? Are you a leader?
Must have been a tough time of your life being a newly married couple, so much change at this time of life at the best of times. Could this, along with a general culture of entitlement as millennials/gen z be part of the issue of misrepresenting the way some people lead? Alan is a human, he isn’t the Lord, definitely check out the passage where the speck of dust / plank of wood is referenced. We must be quick to deal with our sin, and slow to comment on others. This seems a fairly angry and a shouty topic about others sin, it’s sad and a shame these channels exist to promote their own brands. Praying for unity and peace. One church. One Savour. His name is Jesus.
This is a perfect example of how someone overlooks and empowers spiritual abusers by using Scripture to undermine OTHER passages of Scripture that encourage us to pursue justice and confront sinful abusive leadership.
Our brand is Jesus and Jesus wants his church back and he also wants leaders to stop stop abusing people.
I agree we must call those in authority out, and hold them accountable, ultimately one day they will be held accountable (as we all will) but I suppose my question to this is, do we (you) have to do this so publicly?
We should pray for our leaders too. Even when we don’t agree with them. I am sure you know this, but this type of interview seems very common these day - let’s shame people publicly but really they need our prayers and ultimately God will call them to account. Or do we neglect other verses for only the ones which align to your channels purposes?