Owen you'll be remembered for your hideous war on women, in favour of regressive gender roles and dudes in a dress. Woman is not a costume. You're a disgrace
@@katarinahinsey3931 "hoarding" means you are excessively collecting things which have no use or value to you, i highly doubt butler doesn't make full use of their library, no one writes like they do unless they have extensive literary knowledge.
I need more content like this in my feed: slow, deliberate, tackling real issues both theoretically and practically with a feminist ICON. Especially interesting to hear how Butler's views have changed over the years.
yes! i truly appreciated hearing her in depth, andhow mindful and intersectional her thinking is now and how she admits, that her views have changed, and she became open to listening to others. some circles have written her off and called her a transphobe, which after truly hearing her out i find extremely unsettling and reactionary. she seems to be one of the few feminist scholars i have seen as well, that actively acknowledges that other cultures have languages for varying gender roles and identities. much of the discussion around this "newness" of this "emergence" of trans people is downright white centred and highly dismissive of indigenous cultural traditions and histories.
May I request more interviews with philosophers like this. So many amazing contemporary philosophers working on pressing issues which ought to be discussed.
@@sloppysecondssunak5920, thankfully plenty on the left do see Butler's waffle for the nonsense it is. I'd be mortified if this was the best the left had on offer; thankfully it's not.
@@sloppysecondssunak5920 "Frames of War" and "Precarious Life" are absolutely brilliant and lucidly written books, with deep meditations on ethics and its relation to politics. I haven't been interested in the books Butler wrote that are always mentioned in connection with her.
@@sloppysecondssunak5920 its lovely that when i see comments like these, they are rarely ever backed up with substantive criticisms or counterarguments.
It's amazing to see how much self-reflection and humility someone like Butler is able to exercise despite her critical acclaim. Even the fact that she was willing to accept and evaluate her own earlier works on gender performativity based on criticism from the transgender community is also the sort of humility I think more academics and public figures need - and the fact that she speaks with such grace and poise. She's honestly such an inspiration. Thanks so much for doing this, Owen!
I'm happy that Butler is NOT the first non binary philosopher I've read. It's so great having Camille Paglia's representation of my gender in philosophy.
Truly baffled that people in the comments would disagree that Butler is a feminist icon! Gender Trouble was so seminal in changing how we interact with discussions of sex and gender and Butler has promoted feminism more than most public figures in most of our lifetimes. Excellent conversation and a must-listen!
People who want her to remove the label of being a feminist are always those who hate trans people. The same people call themselves feminists yet wouldn't want to be stripped of that label whilst simultaneously stripping Judith of the label. Supporting trans people doesn't mean you're no longer a feminist. These ppl couple trans female violence and cis male violence despite the stats of prisons not supporting that view. They just hate trans women full stop.
@@njlloyd2881 ''They just hate trans women full stop.'' What if THEY just want women, men and transpeople to be equal but NOT THE SAME, not the same dressing rooms, restrooms. Is that hate too , 'OH GREAT WISE ONE''?
Butler's writings felt nearly impossible to fully comprehend when I was in college, but this talk was WONDERFUL and very easy to follow. Thank you so much for sharing!
One of my favorite moments in the second preface: "GT sometimes reads as if gender is simply a self-invention or that the psychic meaning of a gendered presentation might be read directly off its surface. Both of these postulates have had to be refined over time." I love their writerliness, that I can glean new insight, relative to the reading.
If you've been persuaded to accept the incoherent and nonsensical ramblings of a pseudo intellectual cult leader, as legitimate and factually based observations, you have been successfully indoctrinated into a cult.
I agree completely. Managed half of gender trouble and gave up in petulant self loathing for not being able to understand early gender theory by Judith.
I think some ppl think this is the daily mail comments section.. Jokes aside thanks Owen for this free masterclass from Judith... As a gender and sexuality graduate student who's read Judith's work this is realllly valuable...!!!!
@@krayon_eaterFear can be generated by irrational means and produce irrational responses. Women were burned as witches because of irrational fears. Fear can be dangerous and destructive.
@@sabrinanaves7148 Spreading meaningless terms, inventing lies and calling people ''terf'' for wanting separation where it should be IS be dangerous and destructive.
Regarding trans rights, the issue isn't what someone like JK Rowling has or hasn't said - she may be right or wrong, I've read the opinions of respected biologists (eg Jerry Coyne) who says she's factually correct, and others who say she's mistaken. The issue is in how one responds to such arguments. There is an authoritarian glee with which some people put down those they accuse of being discriminatory. Gone is any nuanced argument. Instead, in the case of Rowling, it's "ban her books" etc...this isn't a sensible or intelligent way for adults to behave
We are in a time where we can't disagree or give opinions that don't match what a certain group believes, especially when those opinions come from a woman's mouth
I don't think that's the problem with Rowling though - she's being doing this for years and had her factual mistakes pointed out to her a million times. After a certain point, it goes beyond "just making arguments" and it becomes using a privileged position as a celebrity to endorse oppression. Jerry Coyne isn't an expert on trans or gender issues in general so I don't think that using him works either.
@@Kavafy Calling her a terf, repeating "trans women are women," and telling her to sick girl ducks doesn't amount to having factual mistakes pointed out to her. That's all TRAs ever do.
Particularly when they're right. And that's not an American virtue per se. Honestly, what are you SO afraid of? Its not your country that's at issue, its your species. The human capacity for fear, followed shortly thereafter by hatred of the Other is the single greatest fault endemic to humanity.
But gender may not be the essential existential component of life that Judith insists it is. Gender could also be seen as much like fashion, which is a surface appearance aimed at getting attention and audience approval of sorts. It is dependent on creating a spectacle. Spectacles often are designed to make up for an inner lack, and ideology is always in need of spectacle. Spectacle is on the outside and it is associated with getting power , but the power comes at the expense of hard-won inner growth, because inner growth can never be the consequence of power, ideology, fashion or the adulation of audiences.
Thank you for sharing this Owen. As a trans woman I was interested to listen to this interview. Judith Butler is a very intelligent and thoughtful person and I like the way you allow her to speak in a detailed way. Lots of interesting topics covered and ideas shared !
Thats because the weasel was terrified of her and saying the 'wrong thing' . Funnily enough JB seemed cool enough about people not using 'correct' descriptions of her, on the other hand poor Owen wouldnt be as magnanamous. He was super cringe here.
I don't like the smears. Judith Butler talks of Suzanne Moore as moved by hatred and sees J.K. Rowling as seeking to persecute. You cannot have dialogue with people whose views you think are rooted in hate. Judith Butler is not interested in dialogue with her opponents. A deeply divisive figure.
Surely Suzanne Moore and JK Rowling are at the very least just as divisive. Neither are anywhere near as cogent in articulating a fully rounded position as Butler, you just find their views more to your understanding.
I think that Judith is being really unfair to Suzanne Moore. Moore wasn’t being transphobic but asking important questions that allow us to think about how the trans movement affects women. Suzanne has an interview on UA-cam which I think is really enlightening and categorically shows that she’s not transphobic but is just willing to ask the sorts of questions that need to be asked.
The thing is that these questions have been asked and answered a million times. It gets to a point where it's not "just asking questions" any more, it's concern trolling and campaigning.
@@Kavafy Perhaps if you're in that circle of conversation, but I think in the mainstream it isn't the case. The trans movement is personally a new debate that I'm still learning about so I need to hear these conversations that may have taken place plenty of occasions before it really tapped into the mainstream. Also, I think the big issue with the whole Moore incident is that the opportunity to have an open discussion isn't there. It's all too black and white. It's either you're against the trans movement or you're for it when there should be opportunities for debate. Happy to hear your thoughts on it though.
@@inghell why should trans lives and people be up for "debate". this is butlers entire position and point, and has been for over a decade now. butler has been writing about whose lives are seen as worthy and whose are not, and whose lives are seen as something to "debate" and whose are not since 2005 or even before that. can't you see how when your humanity and fundamental parts of being in your life are reduced to talking points or debate issues it comes across as discriminatory, oppressive, and offensive? regardless of how much cisgender people are ignorant to trans lives and realities, to constantly parrot this type of discourse in mainstream media creates these types of biases and recreates unfair power structures. this is the basis of all of butlers entire philosophical work.
@@vdrake6817 But in my opinion, everything should be up for debate. By doing that we can better understand why Moore was incorrect or correct in her concerns for example. This allows for a more thorough conversation and we can evaluate how to better understand these things. As long as these conversations take place on a reasonable platform, I believe to have these discussions are for the better. I understand the danger of it coming across discriminatory, oppressive or offensive but to not have a conversation at all can also be a danger.
Thankyou for publicising JKR, because the more people read her words the more they realise she said nothing hateful or transphobic - quite the contrary. She stands for all people, including women.
Well her insinuations that trans people are perverts and predators and her deliberate spiteful misgendering of trans people ..she is a liar and a bully, for sure!
I'm so incredibly happy I found this interview! My bachelor thesis will be about feminist theory and gender theory. I started reading about Judith and her work, but seeing her on video and hearing her voice somehow makes her work more approachable to me. And having a clearer picture of what an author is like also helps in interpreting her writing
@@richardott3706 Somehow, the perception of third level education morphed from an institution of higher learning and the pursuit of knowledge into a promised job factory. But it isn’t a job factory. Whether or not you can get a job is irrelevant to the value of shared knowledge. Moreover, a lot of skills are transferable across fields. If you’ve spent 4 years training in presenting data, analysing information, writing reports, pitching ideas, thinking about problems in a creative and nonlinear way, - it therefore doesn’t matter whether you did a humanities class or a business class… you can get a job in any field with the right skills. It’s trendy to criticize university students for struggling to find high paying work or struggling to pay off their student loans, when it shouldn’t be the student’s fault the economy they’ve inherited is utterly pants.
@@sorchacartoons7062 Well, and if you spent 3 or even 4 years regurgitating the tenets of a nonsensical pseudoscience and even went into massive debt just to do that, it shows that you are dumber than somebody who never went to university at all.
These comments... the greatest modern scam is the argument that an education in humanities is wasteful. Klara, speaking as someone who did a humanities degree, your future is bright if you make it so. I'm now a user researcher, service designer and digital developer (self taught). These people will never appreciate what an education will equip you for.
The first time I heard the interviewer here I was very worried he would continue to be very UA-camy in his demeanour (exaggerated delivery, constant, sort of "shouty" gestures) but fortunately he isn't as the interview progresses where he displays excellent research and interviewing skills. This mostly as a comment to those who might otherwise be discouraged from watching on.
Every trans person has said "I was born in the wrong body." This necessarily implies that gender is innate and fixed, not constructed, if trans people are being honest, which they clearly are because they undergo serious surgeries to match their inner feelings.
Cogent point . How would you know you were born in the 'wrong' body anyway ? It's all so full of contradictions & dishonesty - intellectually bankrupt to boot . This is what modernism has allowed - such luxurious life in the West that 'academics' sit around talking about this drivel - which is broadcast at the click of a mouse courtesy of all the that Post-Enlightenment science & technology . Absurd .
Sam Foer has never read anything about gender and still comments on a Judith Butler video to declare that all trans people are binary and must medically transition to be valid. That’s an oops.
@@m.b.garcia4640 Actually, I've read quite a bit about gender, I just happen to be one of the few people that has the balls to be skeptical of gender theory rather than accept it unquestioningly.
I have never said "I was born in the wrong body."because I was born in the right body only my brain, my innate core sense of who I am just disagrees felt wrong and uncomfortable with ever fibre of my being hence the change to something that feels right to me and more natural, even though it seems weird and icky to many non trans folk.
Dr. Stock and Judith Butler would have been better to bring together as guests for a debate. I believe Judith would crack , she keeps contradicting herself.
"Gender norms are constraining." Yes, judith. That's why we should abolish differential gender socialization, not the material reality of biological sex.
@@ginaritchie451 Marsha self-identified as a gay man and a drag qeen, not trans. Marsha also said in interviews that they (the drag queens) were not there at the start of the riot and turned up a couple of hours later. This history is all on record, stop rewriting history. Butch lesbians started the stonewall riots.
Why isn't Butler critiquing domination in a culture which shapes gender behaviour? Why isn't she pointing out that domination shapes submissive and dominating behaviours which we describe as feminine and masculine, including clothing, which fetishises domination? Her focus on internalised gender identity, without the cause is not useful to feminism, it is useful to genderists and capitalism.
butler has wrote about these things before. perhaps you should actually read some of their books. the reality of power structures and imbalances in patriarchal societies is something butler has been critiquing their entire career.
@News Junkie power imbalances along the lines of race, gender, class, etc. are fact. anyone can google social inequalities of health, wealth, etc. and the information is widely available. echo chamber or not, these facts are there and widely replicated in all of contemporary social science. again i have little idea what you are trying to say here as you keep repeating ad homonym attacks to butler.
Battle of the aesthetic bookshelves. Great conversation though, enjoying these talks with prominent progressive thinkers. We need to get the British left as rhetorically proficient as possible
Great point. And on the bookshelves I'm glad it's not just me noticing that. One of the benefits of COVID is getting a window into scholars and politicians book shelves! The academics and real thinkers always have dishevelled the most dishevelled bookshelves
what a brilliant discussion! .....and such a brilliant human being, Judith Butler ...she is a gift ....and I hit the subscribe button as soon as I saw the great Chomsky ...thank you 💌
I would hope we can all agree that it's not transphobia to suggest that biological sex should be taken into account for specific domains of society, that all people should be treated with compassion and their personal identity respected. The temperature on this debate needs to cool, and people with different perspectives need to listen to each other to rationally discuss solutions to a complicated problem (for some areas of traditional societal organization). I really hope in time people can be more civil on this topic, and not suggest things like a biological dogma thats insensitive to gender dsyphoria, or on the flip side, suggest people are in some way contributing to suicide rates of vulnerable groups by asking questions/having an opinion.
12:20 what a salient observation. I've encountered this not only in formal literature, but also within interactions with with trans exclusionary feminists in my daily life. There is often a lot of assuming about my beliefs and not very much asking... This is also exhibited by transphobes outside of feminist circles, and I would even say is a frequent aspect of beliefs structured on bigotry.
Have absolutely no idea how you define "transphobe." If you think it's okay to ruin children's innocence with this gender bender garbage, allow men in women's sports, bathrooms, dressing rooms, shelters, prisons, etc., then yeah, I am not going to really care much how you define that, or what you think. You are already showing me. So, you are right, I don't care what "trans people" think when they are pushing insane thinking, and behaviour on children, women, and expect us to just go along with it, or "understand" it. If you won't respect my boundaries, or children's boundaries then don't expect it back from those of us standing up to the trans cult.
@@BloodyVulnona So, according to you "transphobe" is someone unwilling to be a doormat for disrespect, and abuse brought on by extremist "affirmation" "trans" ideology, drag pedagogy, etc? Do *you* go on listening to someone who REFUSES to respect you, your hard work, your boundaries? I guess you will if you don't care about being disrespected, or abused. Are the "trans" people I agree with "transphobic"? Not, hardly.
"Life will offer you a diminishing number of opportunities to show how smart you are. It will offer an infinite number of occasions that require kindness, mercy, grace, sensitivity, sympathy, generosity and love. Life will require that you widen your repertoire of emotions, that you throw yourself headlong into other people. That you take the curriculum of intimacy. If you haven't mastered it yet, I ask you to turn to this task intentionally now." - David Brooks
Judith Butler is a highly intelligent human that accepts You For You. Thanks for this Owen I thoroughly enjoyed listening to You & Judith, I wish More People where As understanding,open & accepting in this World.
She is a highly intelligent human that accepts You For You as long as you slavishly accept whatever she says. Otherwise, she will try to pathologise you and _everything_ you say, and even your right to an opinion. Her treatment of J.K. Rowling in this video is shameful.
Butler is a highly deceptive human who provides copium for those who can't accept the biological FACT that sex is determined by XY or XX chromosomes and can't be changed, no matter how much gender drivel and postmodern, cultural relativistic claptrap ''they '' produce.
I have no idea why Butler is introduced as "the most famous feminist". Perhaps that's according to Owen. Not to women concerned with liberation of women.
@Joanna Pinkiewicz - she's pretty well known in the literary criticism field, but that is, I agree, very different from the women who fought publicly for women's rights - such as Betty Freidan or Gloria Steinem.
i'm with her on the idea of not minding the gender you're given in interactions with others. what this tells us about how gender is constructed, or rather what it points towards is fascinating and to experience that day to day is (i think) a gift.
@@deafflylii1 YOU didn’t fight any wars and they weren’t for “freedom” but merely the power class exchanging blows in order to accrue more wealth and power. Yes Virginia that includes WW2.
So, she argues that gender is not necessarily internal to us at birth and is constructed through performance. Makes sense. But then argues that the condition of being trans is so hard that makes people suicidal and therefore they must be gender affirmed. Does this not make sense??
I don't see a contradiction there. The issue is that there is a disconnect between the gender you wish to perform and the gender you are expected to perform. Butler also argues that gender leads to the construction of sex; that the performance of gender around us leads us to classify our bodies in gendered terms. So it's completely coherent that someone with such a view would understand why a trans person might seek medical transition, as well as social.
@@umwha I think you misunderstand perform in this context. It means 'to do', rather than to perform like an actor. So it's not a feeling or a performance, but more like a means in which you express some aspect of yourself. And this theory of performatism suggests that it's shaped by the repetition of gendered actions within society. In other words, that the gendered expression we have access to is dictated by the gendered world around us. So in short, gender is not a feeling even by this theory. Rather, the social performance of gender shapes the perception we have of ourselves, and so dictated the sort of gendered actions we might want to engage in.
@@mysteryperson706 I think I understand. Society shapes the way we act (perform). Our performance shapes how we perceive ourselves. Thus, gender and gender identity is artificial, with no material or natural basis, its just how we have become accustomed to acting due to society. How does this not mean that trans people arent real?
@@umwha the misunderstanding is the 'artifical' part. That is something you are suggesting, not something inherently put forward by the likes of Butler. Gender is real and tangible, just not innate and static.
Gender Trouble still being taught in my masters classes and here Judith Butler has long since moved on. So wonderful to hear their updated thoughts and reflections!
@@NoiseGrinder - what courses would that be?? All courses that use Butler's work, because neither of these commenters mentioned the type of course? I discovered Butler's work as Master's student on an English Literature course. I came via the idea of language as performative - which was the work of J.L. Austen.
Well, you know... philosophy is a long dialogue, so if you want to jump in or understand what is being discussed you have to know what have been said before.
@@andres.alegre thank you for explaining academia to me. I have to apologize. I mistakenly assumed it was clear from my interest and surprise at what is being discussed by Judith Butler in this video that my issue is not with learning what has come before, but with the fact that my syllabi have always stopped at Gender Trouble and made it seem like this 30 year old work was the most current and up to date material.
Until I saw this video I thought surely she would rethink her take knowing how many rights have been taken from women, lesibien and gay people, even trans people and especially children because of this take
Two fundamental assumptions are being made, neither of which is true. First, it is not transphobic to believe that women's spaces are important and need protecting, that womens sports matter and that young lesbians are LESS likely to commit suicide if allowed to go through puberty rather than being given puberty blockers and pushed down a medical and surgical path etc. Second, that those who share these beliefs are 'right wing' or hold right wing views. The majority of feminists who believe that a woman is an adult human female which is a factual and biological reality, hold very left wing views on other subjects.
Rather dismissive of the concerns of ordinary women who are being told to share their women-only spaces with hairy-arsed blokes. It’s not the first time an academic immersed in their theories failed to engage with the real-world concerns of ordinary people.
Thank you for this discussion. Judith is a vision of grace, intelligence and wisdom. Wouldn't it be great for JK to sit down with Judith for a respectful and calm debate, now that would be interesting
I’m deeply fascinated by Judith Butler. I don’t question very much if I totally agree with her, but I apreciate the depth of her thoughts and culture. And what i love of her is the courage, politically, in many fields and her total humbleness.
Gender performativity creates stereo types that are instructive to many aspects of trans identity. It's an interesting internal conflict within the discussion. As a non binary person myself I sometimes wonder where the aspects of how my own ideas of femininity are arrived at. Contrapoints has some great takes on this too.
Women simply want to keep safe and to ensure safeguarding is paramount. We're not 'against' including Trans people within our world. I would not exclude any minority group. I'm Liberal. But trans ideology is damaging to women, homosexuals, and especially children. Trans people should be accommodated and respected. Trans ideology doesn't encourage that.
@@Bibibi1990 There is a movement called trans humanism and it embraces all that is trans in its ideology, incorporating AI into our bodies, disconnecting brains from bodies, removing genitals, et cetera.
@@Bibibi1990 According to Butler it is debated among transgender, if it is generated from within or constructed in social context, i.e. could correspond to transhumanist thinking and theory, how we would b entering into a posthuman society of robots and new human or other life forms.
Means so much to me (as a young trans person) to see Judith interviewed properly!! Whenever they get profiled by anyone else the questions primarily consist of "isn't it bad that billionaires get criticised on twitter". Thank you Owen, and keep it going!
Credit where credit is due: A masterclass in intellectual dishonesty. I was going to comment on what Butler is saying but there are so many holes in her argument - if it can even be called that - that it would take all morning. So I will just carry on eating my left-over Christmas pudding in awed wonder at how come this woman is a 'feminist icon'.
At 42:00, Owne Jones begins a discussion of the Tory government criticizing postmodernism and its pernicious effect on the academies. It's about time this criticism began. The government is right. Maybe members of the Tory party have read Lyotard. Don't deny that out of hand, Judy.
Unironically using conservative buzzwords like ‘postmodernism’ to talk about the state of modern-day education simply shows that you have never set foot in any serious academic institution lmfao.
@@Dan_1348 I am aware that it is indeed a philosophical movement, but the way it is used by right wingers has absolutely nothing to do with the actual meaning. It is simply a another scary phrase that is entirely interchangeable with 'radical marxism', 'critical race theory', 'gender studies' etc. Education is terrifying to conservatives, as anything that challenges the status quo, nationalistic sentiment or the historical whitewashing of the past is a grave threat.
@@DJ-my1sm Postmodernist thinking is rife at my university, you are more likely to find a Marxist professor than a conservative. You may agree with this ideology, but don’t pretend it isn’t there.
Sex is not assigned at birth. We know the sex of babies well before they are born and in 99.9 % of cases this is the case. Stop calling the other side "transphobic^ just because they don't agree with you. I could call you a lot of things that aren't true and out of civil discourse l don't. Also don't you think that an example of the new patriarchy is really men taking over woman's safe spaces, athletics etc.This is how many white men are moving from the bottom ot the social hierarchy transitioning to "transgender" women and ending up on top.
'We know the sex of babies well before they are born and in 99.9 % of cases this is the case.' Do we know in advance what someone's hormonal sex will be at every stage in their life?
@@georgemioch8981 I refer you to the question I asked the OP. Also, the 'medical conditions' you refer to (not all of which cause loss of function, by the way) absolutely do debunk the notion of sex as a strict binary. A binary, by definition, admits of no exceptions.
@@darkwaddi Read the interviews conducted by the Women and Equalities Committee on Gender Recognition Act reform - the shelters unanimously say that the safeguarding procedures they have to protect survivors from cis abusers would be sufficient to protect survivors from trans abusers.
@@darkwaddi Women's Aid, an umbrella organisation for ~300 refuges, is trans inclusive. The majority of anti trans rhetoric comes from online radicalisation
Thank you very much for this video, it is so incredibly helpful and also warming to see how kind and humble Judith Butler is. I do have one question though: at some point, Butler mentions that there is a difference between understanding gender as a social construction on the one hand, and as a performance on the other hand. But they then let it go. Could anybody enlighten me on the difference, or mention a book they wrote which explains this difference? Thank you very much again!
As a woman,I never met another woman who would have a problem with trans women in our bathrooms. This is something men say, who have never seen a women's bathroom (we have stalls, we can't see anybody's body parts, we meet at the mirror and give each other makeup tips). On the contrary, trans women in men's bathrooms are risking actual bodily harm, and we all know that because WE ALSO don't feel safe in men's bathrooms. Our bathrooms are open, come on in, it's rather friendly in there.
@@marksanchez7323 again, really? Because if you ask most women, they have no problems with trans women. We like separate bathrooms because it's safer than being in a confined space with several drunk guys, but that's all ther eis to it. It's not like we have to share a urinal or anything. I never encountered this, always though it was a bit of a strawman argument.
The part where they talk about some people not being bothered by gender and just going along with it really resonates with me. It also initially lead me to be a little bit transphobic in a transmedicalist way before eventually realising I was wrong and also realising I'm non binary myself. I'm nb in a way where gender doesn't matter to me and a lot of it doesn't fit with the way I view myself.
@@cirimpufka did the majority of people grow up with body dysphoria? I didn't think that worth mentioning but seeing as you came here to invalidate me I also have that. Am I trans enough for you now? Do I meet your standards for my own identity and view of myself?
@@MyKeyMoonShine - I wonder if you have misunderstood pacufka's comment? I didn't see it as an attempt to invalidate you - but I might be wrong of course. I really have trouble with the non binary thing - I don't really understand it and I really want to. If it means simply not buying in to what society thinks we should be and do if we are a woman or a man - then I am non binary. If it means that we don't see everyone as belonging to a discreet group that is either 100% male, or 100% female - then again - that's me. So, is it simply a stance, a position, that says "I disagree that we all identify with what society sees as male or female."? If so, then, hopefully, it will not be required in the future (I am an optimist - lol!!) What I suspect/hope is that, in the future we will all just identify by our name - we won't feel the need to say "I am a woman" or "I am a trans woman" - people can get to know us if they want that information. This would mean that the concept of non binary and trans gender would die out of course. We would still have trans sexual people but that's totally different.
@@honeychurchgipsy6 nonbinary means a person doesn't identify as completely a man or a woman. Whatever my personal opinions on gender, I can't accept a stance that undermines other people's experiences. But for me personally- I am much happier when I do not try to slot myself into the binary. So nonbinary is a personal thing, but the idea you're referring to is something I've seen before, maybe called gender abolition?
@@cfor8129 - thanks for that - I've been thinking a lot about how I think of myself lately - and how I 'know' whether I am a woman or a man ( I can know that I am biologically female of course by self examination - lol!!) Of course, when I grew up in the 60's and 70's men and women lead very separated/demarcated lives - my dad worked away, my mum was at home looking after us. I automatically identified with my mum - i.e. as a woman but since I only had what society told me about being a girl I had to go with that. I never had much in the way of maternal feelings (despite my mum being the opposite and loving babies). I love animals but babies - yuk!! Whereas my sister longed for a baby and helped with any babies that came to stay. If this means that I am not typically feminine (I also hate nail varnish, high heels, and spending time gossiping about fashion and hair styles) then what does that mean? ALL of those things (apart perhaps from the maternal thing) are created by society - so I have come full circle with not knowing why we need to have a label for not fitting with what is only a superficial/created thing? I see a future where no one gives a flying F what gender we are (in fact gender wont be a thing because it will be as normal for a biological male to wear make up as it is for a biological female to hate it), and no one will care who you love - we will drop gender pronouns all together and simply answer the question 'Who are you?' with the words 'I'm Gillian/Tom/Alex/ etc'
Ah yes, going with the falsity of what the trans women did or did not do at Stonewall, or how important they were. Everyone was pissed, everyone fought back - trans woman were part of it, not some special part that needs to be held up above, as many now wish to do in some misguided attempt for blah blah blah.
@@cfor8129 If Butler argues the "not all men" point instead, then does that mean Butler agrees with right wingers or incels who say similar things? That's a worrying thought.
She's changed her writing style since this trope about her first came into existence 20 years ago, and is incredibly articulate in interviews, evidenced in this video. Michael I beg you to get another hobby.
@@angrydonutface7420 - Although you could argue that a semi-colon is more correct, in that, the second phrase provides more information, rather than a contrasting piece of information, I have no issue with the use of the colon by Grundy.
8:12 Butler says "Gender" is historical formed, however history has a beginning , she should locate the historical formation of gender and also identify what existed before that.
Well they observe, they assume, they assign. I mean countless of intersex people are getting assigned male or female at birth because those who observe don't know what they are doing in fact.
@@TheLeksilijum By 'countless' you're referring to something that is actually counted very effectively. It affects about one in one thousand births - roughly ten times rarer than Downs Syndrome.
@@tomjohnson6860 They are countless in the sense that they are not going to stop being born and that their number isn't limited. And I know they are rare, but actually roughly the same number as gingers. But what does that mean, exactly? What are you suggesting?
I think the TERFiness of the UK is at least partly explained by the radical feminist movement in the UK. People like Sheila Jeffreys and Julie Bindel seem to have been influential in the history UK feminist politics. The UK is a more cohesive/collective consciousness-y society compared to the US, which is more dispersed and individualistic, so that may have amplified the voices of people like Jeffreys and Bindel.
I replaced Bindel in a shared house many years ago. I remember someone saying she really wanted to be famous. She sounded like a really annoying woman.
I don't believe Owen's assessment of the number of feminists in the UK who are influential and non-trans inclusive. Look at the example of Suzanne Moore at the Guardian. Her columns were not transphobic, but they were interpreted as such by a wide range of contributors to the Guardian (mostly from people who nobody knows). However, Moore's influence, power, prestige, whatever you want to call it, counted for nothing. What the incident did show was the disproportionate power and influence that some trans activists have. Butler's repeated use of the term transphobic is inaccurate and unhelpful. As was her attempt to link those who question self identification of gender with bigotry, prejudice and racism. As for her analysis of J K Rowling - that was diabolical. Claiming she had fostered hatred and misunderstanding, and found ways to persecute others as a revenge fantasy is a disgusting comment. Then in the next breath Butler claims she doesn't want her to face abuse. I would argue that Butler's summary of J K Rowling's opinions does nothing other than encourage gross stupidity.
I would really like to see an interview that includes both Judith Butler and Jordan Peterson. I myself am a “gender non-conforming” person. (I'm afraid to use the word “woman” nowadays because I can't confirm its definition, or cis/trans to describe myself because there are people I hate in both groups.) When I'm attacked by some ultra-conservative for “not being feminine enough as a woman," I watch Butler's stuff for mental comfort. When I get attacked by ultra-trans people for "dressing masculine but not self-identifying as a man means you’re an ignorant transphobia," I watch Peterson's stuff for mental comfort. All in all, I've been lonelier since the trans movement started I'm sure both Butler and Peterson are very intelligent experts. I think both professors have valid points that do not inherently contradictory. But I am surrounded by people who are sliding to extremes, and it is really hurt. I hope that the two professors can reach a reasonable set of consensus that recognizes both the social and biological nature of gender/sex and together oppose irrational social phenomena
As an example. I think it would be great if two professors could agree on the definition of some words. For example, "woman". Is the definition of this word a "biological woman" (one born with a female reproductive system and skeletal structure) or "a person who shows feminine manners"? It would also help people identify themselves if the word "woman" is less ambiguous Another example, "trans". Is it "one who self-identifies as trans is a trans", or "one who begins to transition through hormones is a trans", or "one who has completed the process of top and bottom SRS is a trans "? This point has been debated within the trans community. If a word means different things in different people's heads and therefore causes a lot of arguments, does it mean that the usage of the word needs an improvement? Could professors invent some new words to clear the distinction?
Conservative gender essentialism and liberal gender essentialism are just two sides of the same coin. There's no such thing as cis and you don't have to be trans. You're just a female human being and you always will be.
Physical sex is not something 'assigned at birth.' it's something we're conceived with when a sperm cell unites with an egg cell. It is this biological reality which adds to the torment of those whose minds don't match up with it. 'Assigned at birth' is a highly misleading term that fails to get at the heart of the Trans dilemma.
Support us taking on the right-wing media here: patreon.com/owenjones84
Owen you'll be remembered for your hideous war on women, in favour of regressive gender roles and dudes in a dress.
Woman is not a costume.
You're a disgrace
You claim to be against capitalism but here you are asking for money for the service you supply. That’s capitalism you hypocrite
Dude you ARE the right.
Owen jones is a terrible human being. He deserves no platform, the majority of society hate him.
Wow - here for the comments and not disappointed. Owen you must have zero self-awareness.
Anyone else jealous of the amount of books in the background ?
Ikr, I wish I were also in Judith Butler's bookshelf 😫
that many books makes my freaking heart pound
Jealous that she's a book hoarder? No.
Im jealous of people who want to and do read so many books
@@katarinahinsey3931 "hoarding" means you are excessively collecting things which have no use or value to you, i highly doubt butler doesn't make full use of their library, no one writes like they do unless they have extensive literary knowledge.
I need more content like this in my feed: slow, deliberate, tackling real issues both theoretically and practically with a feminist ICON. Especially interesting to hear how Butler's views have changed over the years.
I'm new to her work, how have her views changed tho?
yes! i truly appreciated hearing her in depth, andhow mindful and intersectional her thinking is now and how she admits, that her views have changed, and she became open to listening to others. some circles have written her off and called her a transphobe, which after truly hearing her out i find extremely unsettling and reactionary. she seems to be one of the few feminist scholars i have seen as well, that actively acknowledges that other cultures have languages for varying gender roles and identities. much of the discussion around this "newness" of this "emergence" of trans people is downright white centred and highly dismissive of indigenous cultural traditions and histories.
May I request more interviews with philosophers like this. So many amazing contemporary philosophers working on pressing issues which ought to be discussed.
@@sloppysecondssunak5920, thankfully plenty on the left do see Butler's waffle for the nonsense it is. I'd be mortified if this was the best the left had on offer; thankfully it's not.
@@sloppysecondssunak5920 "Frames of War" and "Precarious Life" are absolutely brilliant and lucidly written books, with deep meditations on ethics and its relation to politics. I haven't been interested in the books Butler wrote that are always mentioned in connection with her.
@@sloppysecondssunak5920 Have you read those?
@@sloppysecondssunak5920 its lovely that when i see comments like these, they are rarely ever backed up with substantive criticisms or counterarguments.
It's amazing to see how much self-reflection and humility someone like Butler is able to exercise despite her critical acclaim. Even the fact that she was willing to accept and evaluate her own earlier works on gender performativity based on criticism from the transgender community is also the sort of humility I think more academics and public figures need - and the fact that she speaks with such grace and poise. She's honestly such an inspiration. Thanks so much for doing this, Owen!
*they
Compare that to the complete inability of terfs to examine their own ideaology (or as Abigail Thorn would put it: their but hole...).
I'm happy to learn that Butler is my first non binary philosopher I've read. It's so great having representation of my gender in philosophy.
She is a woman
I'm happy that Butler is NOT the first non binary philosopher I've read. It's so great having Camille Paglia's representation of my gender in philosophy.
Lol
@@firouz4296 look up what paglia thinks about allen ginsburg. I hope she’s changed her mind since then but…
@@ghettophilosoph29 you admitted she was non bianary in another transphobic comment. Pick a side .
Thanks for this interview. I liked that you made space for Butler to expound on your prompts, a pleasure to hear their mind at work.
The "B" in Butler stands for "Based".
You will never pass
@@terrybunch7313 return to the dark depths from whence you came, fiend.
@@terrybunch7313 back 2 /pol/
@@ShazySoft Back to tumblr
@@terrybunch7313 you will never find love
Truly baffled that people in the comments would disagree that Butler is a feminist icon! Gender Trouble was so seminal in changing how we interact with discussions of sex and gender and Butler has promoted feminism more than most public figures in most of our lifetimes. Excellent conversation and a must-listen!
surviving sexual violence does not make you transphobic. stop using such baloney as cover for hatred.
They're transphobes who think that being trans and supporting the trans community is anti-feminist.
People who want her to remove the label of being a feminist are always those who hate trans people. The same people call themselves feminists yet wouldn't want to be stripped of that label whilst simultaneously stripping Judith of the label. Supporting trans people doesn't mean you're no longer a feminist. These ppl couple trans female violence and cis male violence despite the stats of prisons not supporting that view. They just hate trans women full stop.
@@njlloyd2881
''They just hate trans women full stop.''
What if THEY just want women, men and transpeople to be equal but NOT THE SAME, not the same dressing rooms, restrooms. Is that hate too , 'OH GREAT WISE ONE''?
Butler's writings felt nearly impossible to fully comprehend when I was in college, but this talk was WONDERFUL and very easy to follow. Thank you so much for sharing!
I too found it dence . She makes you think .
One of my favorite moments in the second preface: "GT sometimes reads as if gender is simply a self-invention or that the psychic meaning of a gendered presentation might be read directly off its surface. Both of these postulates have had to be refined over time."
I love their writerliness, that I can glean new insight, relative to the reading.
Because her writing is truly terrible.
If you've been persuaded to accept the incoherent and nonsensical ramblings of a pseudo intellectual cult leader, as legitimate and factually based observations, you have been successfully indoctrinated into a cult.
I agree completely. Managed half of gender trouble and gave up in petulant self loathing for not being able to understand early gender theory by Judith.
I think some ppl think this is the daily mail comments section..
Jokes aside thanks Owen for this free masterclass from Judith... As a gender and sexuality graduate student who's read Judith's work this is realllly valuable...!!!!
BHAHAHAHAHA
Haha so you’ve just dropped 40 grand down the drain on the most made up, unintelligent, useless jargon out there
@@samguest78 lol ur cute.
@@samguest78 seethe harder
Anger is only one possible reaction to fear, but when you are angry it's always a response to fear.
So? Fear is a healthy, evolutionary wired instinct. If your ancestors didn't fear or express anger, you wouldn't be here.
@@krayon_eaterFear can be generated by irrational means and produce irrational responses. Women were burned as witches because of irrational fears. Fear can be dangerous and destructive.
@@sabrinanaves7148 Spreading meaningless terms, inventing lies and calling people ''terf'' for wanting separation where it should be IS be dangerous and destructive.
Regarding trans rights, the issue isn't what someone like JK Rowling has or hasn't said - she may be right or wrong, I've read the opinions of respected biologists (eg Jerry Coyne) who says she's factually correct, and others who say she's mistaken. The issue is in how one responds to such arguments. There is an authoritarian glee with which some people put down those they accuse of being discriminatory. Gone is any nuanced argument. Instead, in the case of Rowling, it's "ban her books" etc...this isn't a sensible or intelligent way for adults to behave
We are in a time where we can't disagree or give opinions that don't match what a certain group believes, especially when those opinions come from a woman's mouth
I don't think that's the problem with Rowling though - she's being doing this for years and had her factual mistakes pointed out to her a million times. After a certain point, it goes beyond "just making arguments" and it becomes using a privileged position as a celebrity to endorse oppression. Jerry Coyne isn't an expert on trans or gender issues in general so I don't think that using him works either.
@@Kavafy Calling her a terf, repeating "trans women are women," and telling her to sick girl ducks doesn't amount to having factual mistakes pointed out to her.
That's all TRAs ever do.
Wow. I'm sure there are lots of well reasearched and based polite arguments in this comment section
Is it even bad?
Just went through it rn and its actually rly nice
@@deafflylii1 flag nonce lol
Most of it is shallow fawning.
@@deafflylii1 ok Gareth
“It’s always dangerous when a n American comes nd tell you what’s wrong in your own country” ♥️
Yes, we have countless examples of that. But new labour were always in love with the US.
Particularly when they're right. And that's not an American virtue per se. Honestly, what are you SO afraid of? Its not your country that's at issue, its your species. The human capacity for fear, followed shortly thereafter by hatred of the Other is the single greatest fault endemic to humanity.
I'm in love with Judith Butler's background - so many books and so many bookcases! What a library!
She's a big Mills + Boone fan.
Robin DiAngelo had a similar one behind her in one interview.
@@SvenErik_Lindstrom3Books cases behind speakers are the same shallow arrogant narcissism as trans ideology.
@@Johnconno Takes one to know one ay?
@@sophiepooks2174 Not in this case. X
But gender may not be the essential existential component of life that Judith insists it is. Gender could also be seen as much like fashion, which is a surface appearance aimed at getting attention and audience approval of sorts. It is dependent on creating a spectacle. Spectacles often are designed to make up for an inner lack, and ideology is always in need of spectacle. Spectacle is on the outside and it is associated with getting power , but the power comes at the expense of hard-won inner growth, because inner growth can never be the consequence of power, ideology, fashion or the adulation of audiences.
Gender is offen like fashion to those who are allowed to express it in accordance to their sense of self
Thank you for sharing this Owen. As a trans woman I was interested to listen to this interview. Judith Butler is a very intelligent and thoughtful person and I like the way you allow her to speak in a detailed way. Lots of interesting topics covered and ideas shared !
What makes someone a woman?
Thats because the weasel was terrified of her and saying the 'wrong thing' . Funnily enough JB seemed cool enough about people not using 'correct' descriptions of her, on the other hand poor Owen wouldnt be as magnanamous. He was super cringe here.
@@marksanchez7323 Vagine
@@marksanchez7323 Lipstick, eyeshadow and long hair, no?
@@Grace-xb7nm Stiletto heels!
I don't like the smears. Judith Butler talks of Suzanne Moore as moved by hatred and sees J.K. Rowling as seeking to persecute. You cannot have dialogue with people whose views you think are rooted in hate. Judith Butler is not interested in dialogue with her opponents. A deeply divisive figure.
Surely Suzanne Moore and JK Rowling are at the very least just as divisive. Neither are anywhere near as cogent in articulating a fully rounded position as Butler, you just find their views more to your understanding.
@@kraigetrueman1954 I am not in agreement with SM and JKR. I just think it is wrong to assume they are moved by hatred. It makes dialogue impossible.
@@dankragger7122 Moores motivated by food , lots of it
This was incredibly interesting thank you for making this video! So many points and arguments I have never thought about before!
My favourite was at 8:49 where we just cut to Owen looking confused, nodding, then cutting away
I think that Judith is being really unfair to Suzanne Moore. Moore wasn’t being transphobic but asking important questions that allow us to think about how the trans movement affects women. Suzanne has an interview on UA-cam which I think is really enlightening and categorically shows that she’s not transphobic but is just willing to ask the sorts of questions that need to be asked.
Lockdown TV UnHerd....brilliant interviewer and interviewee
The thing is that these questions have been asked and answered a million times. It gets to a point where it's not "just asking questions" any more, it's concern trolling and campaigning.
@@Kavafy Perhaps if you're in that circle of conversation, but I think in the mainstream it isn't the case. The trans movement is personally a new debate that I'm still learning about so I need to hear these conversations that may have taken place plenty of occasions before it really tapped into the mainstream. Also, I think the big issue with the whole Moore incident is that the opportunity to have an open discussion isn't there. It's all too black and white. It's either you're against the trans movement or you're for it when there should be opportunities for debate. Happy to hear your thoughts on it though.
@@inghell why should trans lives and people be up for "debate". this is butlers entire position and point, and has been for over a decade now. butler has been writing about whose lives are seen as worthy and whose are not, and whose lives are seen as something to "debate" and whose are not since 2005 or even before that. can't you see how when your humanity and fundamental parts of being in your life are reduced to talking points or debate issues it comes across as discriminatory, oppressive, and offensive? regardless of how much cisgender people are ignorant to trans lives and realities, to constantly parrot this type of discourse in mainstream media creates these types of biases and recreates unfair power structures. this is the basis of all of butlers entire philosophical work.
@@vdrake6817 But in my opinion, everything should be up for debate. By doing that we can better understand why Moore was incorrect or correct in her concerns for example. This allows for a more thorough conversation and we can evaluate how to better understand these things. As long as these conversations take place on a reasonable platform, I believe to have these discussions are for the better. I understand the danger of it coming across discriminatory, oppressive or offensive but to not have a conversation at all can also be a danger.
Thankyou for publicising JKR, because the more people read her words the more they realise she said nothing hateful or transphobic - quite the contrary. She stands for all people, including women.
Well said!
Exactly!
lol
Well her insinuations that trans people are perverts and predators and her deliberate spiteful misgendering of trans people ..she is a liar and a bully, for sure!
I'm so incredibly happy I found this interview! My bachelor thesis will be about feminist theory and gender theory. I started reading about Judith and her work, but seeing her on video and hearing her voice somehow makes her work more approachable to me. And having a clearer picture of what an author is like also helps in interpreting her writing
That's a lot of preparation and reading just to become a taxi driver!
What an absolute waste of time that dissertation will be 😂
@@richardott3706 Somehow, the perception of third level education morphed from an institution of higher learning and the pursuit of knowledge into a promised job factory. But it isn’t a job factory. Whether or not you can get a job is irrelevant to the value of shared knowledge. Moreover, a lot of skills are transferable across fields. If you’ve spent 4 years training in presenting data, analysing information, writing reports, pitching ideas, thinking about problems in a creative and nonlinear way, - it therefore doesn’t matter whether you did a humanities class or a business class… you can get a job in any field with the right skills. It’s trendy to criticize university students for struggling to find high paying work or struggling to pay off their student loans, when it shouldn’t be the student’s fault the economy they’ve inherited is utterly pants.
@@sorchacartoons7062 Well, and if you spent 3 or even 4 years regurgitating the tenets of a nonsensical pseudoscience and even went into massive debt just to do that, it shows that you are dumber than somebody who never went to university at all.
These comments... the greatest modern scam is the argument that an education in humanities is wasteful. Klara, speaking as someone who did a humanities degree, your future is bright if you make it so. I'm now a user researcher, service designer and digital developer (self taught). These people will never appreciate what an education will equip you for.
fantastic interview, fantastic guest. its such a privilege to have access to such engaging educational content for free, so thank you owen
The great Judith Butler is non binary? Life is awesome.
No spoilers!
(Kidding)
Yes it is! This is so great!
The first time I heard the interviewer here I was very worried he would continue to be very UA-camy in his demeanour (exaggerated delivery, constant, sort of "shouty" gestures) but fortunately he isn't as the interview progresses where he displays excellent research and interviewing skills. This mostly as a comment to those who might otherwise be discouraged from watching on.
Great comment, great abs
I love the video, and Judith Butler is so cool and KIND! Thanks, Owen, for doing this ;)
Every trans person has said "I was born in the wrong body." This necessarily implies that gender is innate and fixed, not constructed, if trans people are being honest, which they clearly are because they undergo serious surgeries to match their inner feelings.
Cogent point . How would you know you were born in the 'wrong' body anyway ? It's all so full of contradictions & dishonesty - intellectually bankrupt to boot . This is what modernism has allowed - such luxurious life in the West that 'academics' sit around talking about this drivel - which is broadcast at the click of a mouse courtesy of all the that Post-Enlightenment science & technology . Absurd .
Sam Foer has never read anything about gender and still comments on a Judith Butler video to declare that all trans people are binary and must medically transition to be valid. That’s an oops.
@@m.b.garcia4640 Actually, I've read quite a bit about gender, I just happen to be one of the few people that has the balls to be skeptical of gender theory rather than accept it unquestioningly.
That doesn't make trans people less valid. As Judith said. The definition of gender is different to different people.
I have never said "I was born in the wrong body."because I was born in the right body only my brain, my innate core sense of who I am just disagrees felt wrong and uncomfortable with ever fibre of my being hence the change to something that feels right to me and more natural, even though it seems weird and icky to many non trans folk.
Dr. Stock and Judith Butler would have been better to bring together as guests for a debate. I believe Judith would crack , she keeps contradicting herself.
Idk, the Sussex trade union said Kathleen Stock was transphobic
'I think I can situated myself as part of its beginning' -understatement much?
"Gender norms are constraining." Yes, judith. That's why we should abolish differential gender socialization, not the material reality of biological sex.
"Let's stop treating people different based on sex while continuing to treat people differently based on sex" ???
Storms DeLaverie instigated the Stonewall riots. Storm was a proud butch Lesbian.
that is true. and marsha p johnson , a trans woman of color was right behind her. cisgender white gay men will tell you they began it all.
@@ginaritchie451 Why are you so angry with white men? Daddy issues?
@@ginaritchie451 Marsha self-identified as a gay man and a drag qeen, not trans. Marsha also said in interviews that they (the drag queens) were not there at the start of the riot and turned up a couple of hours later. This history is all on record, stop rewriting history. Butch lesbians started the stonewall riots.
Yes just one of the many history lies in this interview.
@@sandytimewellDrag King : DeLarverie
Why isn't Butler critiquing domination in a culture which shapes gender behaviour? Why isn't she pointing out that domination shapes submissive and dominating behaviours which we describe as feminine and masculine, including clothing, which fetishises domination?
Her focus on internalised gender identity, without the cause is not useful to feminism, it is useful to genderists and capitalism.
Exactly what I was thinking
Because she's explaining the situation to people who are just finding this information out.
@News Junkie I would think other issues are more pronounced and visible: sexualisation and commodification of women and male violence.
butler has wrote about these things before. perhaps you should actually read some of their books. the reality of power structures and imbalances in patriarchal societies is something butler has been critiquing their entire career.
@News Junkie power imbalances along the lines of race, gender, class, etc. are fact. anyone can google social inequalities of health, wealth, etc. and the information is widely available. echo chamber or not, these facts are there and widely replicated in all of contemporary social science. again i have little idea what you are trying to say here as you keep repeating ad homonym attacks to butler.
Battle of the aesthetic bookshelves. Great conversation though, enjoying these talks with prominent progressive thinkers. We need to get the British left as rhetorically proficient as possible
Great point. And on the bookshelves I'm glad it's not just me noticing that. One of the benefits of COVID is getting a window into scholars and politicians book shelves! The academics and real thinkers always have dishevelled the most dishevelled bookshelves
@@declanmurray Owens not a politician hes not elected by anyone ...
Rhetorically proficient 😂
Yes, aesthetic. Perfect adjective.
That library... looks-like heaven.
Can I move in?
LOVED this piece!!! Really helped shape my thinking and helped me to better position & frame my responses on transphobia - Well done!
Lmao. Riiigght.
@@caltriton6904 you know you sound like a bitter bully, right?
what a brilliant discussion! .....and such a brilliant human being, Judith Butler ...she is a gift ....and I hit the subscribe button as soon as I saw the great Chomsky ...thank you 💌
I love Judith Butler!! What an amazing interview! Thanks for this, Owen!
another nut-job
I would hope we can all agree that it's not transphobia to suggest that biological sex should be taken into account for specific domains of society, that all people should be treated with compassion and their personal identity respected. The temperature on this debate needs to cool, and people with different perspectives need to listen to each other to rationally discuss solutions to a complicated problem (for some areas of traditional societal organization). I really hope in time people can be more civil on this topic, and not suggest things like a biological dogma thats insensitive to gender dsyphoria, or on the flip side, suggest people are in some way contributing to suicide rates of vulnerable groups by asking questions/having an opinion.
12:20
what a salient observation. I've encountered this not only in formal literature, but also within interactions with with trans exclusionary feminists in my daily life. There is often a lot of assuming about my beliefs and not very much asking...
This is also exhibited by transphobes outside of feminist circles, and I would even say is a frequent aspect of beliefs structured on bigotry.
Have absolutely no idea how you define "transphobe."
If you think it's okay to ruin children's innocence with this gender bender garbage, allow men in women's sports, bathrooms, dressing rooms, shelters, prisons, etc., then yeah, I am not going to really care much how you define that, or what you think. You are already showing me.
So, you are right, I don't care what "trans people" think when they are pushing insane thinking, and behaviour on children, women, and expect us to just go along with it, or "understand" it.
If you won't respect my boundaries, or children's boundaries then don't expect it back from those of us standing up to the trans cult.
@@serpentines6356 wOn'T sOmEbOdY tHiNk Of ThE cHiLdReN !?
@@serpentines6356 your comment is literally the perfect example of that
@UCvQYhz95hUD41eeiUts0H8Q Once again, perfect example
@@BloodyVulnona So, according to you "transphobe" is someone unwilling to be a doormat for disrespect, and abuse brought on by extremist "affirmation" "trans" ideology, drag pedagogy, etc?
Do *you* go on listening to someone who REFUSES to respect you, your hard work, your boundaries? I guess you will if you don't care about being disrespected, or abused.
Are the "trans" people I agree with "transphobic"?
Not, hardly.
"Life will offer you a diminishing number of opportunities to show how smart you are. It will offer an infinite number of occasions that require kindness, mercy, grace, sensitivity, sympathy, generosity and love. Life will require that you widen your repertoire of emotions, that you throw yourself headlong into other people. That you take the curriculum of intimacy. If you haven't mastered it yet, I ask you to turn to this task intentionally now."
- David Brooks
Judith Butler is a highly intelligent human that accepts You For You. Thanks for this Owen I thoroughly enjoyed listening to You & Judith, I wish More People where As understanding,open & accepting in this World.
She is a highly intelligent human that accepts You For You as long as you slavishly accept whatever she says. Otherwise, she will try to pathologise you and _everything_ you say, and even your right to an opinion. Her treatment of J.K. Rowling in this video is shameful.
Butler is a highly deceptive human who provides copium for those who can't accept the biological FACT that sex is determined by XY or XX chromosomes and can't be changed, no matter how much gender drivel and postmodern, cultural relativistic claptrap ''they '' produce.
None Butlers critique of Rowling has anything to do with what Rowling actually said, wrote or believes.
I just wrote a final on her and nietzsche and this interview would've helped me so much lol I love her!
What do you love in particular? What resonated most with you that you lover her?
@j sauce idk wut u mean
What was the paper about ?
No way, me too! It's due in two days lol
I Wana read it, send me a link.
I have no idea why Butler is introduced as "the most famous feminist". Perhaps that's according to Owen. Not to women concerned with liberation of women.
@Joanna Pinkiewicz - she's pretty well known in the literary criticism field, but that is, I agree, very different from the women who fought publicly for women's rights - such as Betty Freidan or Gloria Steinem.
according to the jumped up little misogynistic man child hahahahaha
i'm with her on the idea of not minding the gender you're given in interactions with others.
what this tells us about how gender is constructed, or rather what it points towards is fascinating and to experience that day to day is (i think) a gift.
@@deafflylii1 what?
@@deafflylii1 what are you on about?
@@deafflylii1 ah, since you don't personally relate, it must be imaginary?
@@deafflylii1 i don't even know what you're on about, mate.
@@deafflylii1 YOU didn’t fight any wars and they weren’t for “freedom” but merely the power class exchanging blows in order to accrue more wealth and power. Yes Virginia that includes WW2.
So, she argues that gender is not necessarily internal to us at birth and is constructed through performance. Makes sense. But then argues that the condition of being trans is so hard that makes people suicidal and therefore they must be gender affirmed. Does this not make sense??
I don't see a contradiction there. The issue is that there is a disconnect between the gender you wish to perform and the gender you are expected to perform.
Butler also argues that gender leads to the construction of sex; that the performance of gender around us leads us to classify our bodies in gendered terms. So it's completely coherent that someone with such a view would understand why a trans person might seek medical transition, as well as social.
@@mysteryperson706 But did she not argue that being trans is 'not just a feeling'? Its not just the gender you want to perform?
@@umwha I think you misunderstand perform in this context. It means 'to do', rather than to perform like an actor. So it's not a feeling or a performance, but more like a means in which you express some aspect of yourself. And this theory of performatism suggests that it's shaped by the repetition of gendered actions within society. In other words, that the gendered expression we have access to is dictated by the gendered world around us.
So in short, gender is not a feeling even by this theory. Rather, the social performance of gender shapes the perception we have of ourselves, and so dictated the sort of gendered actions we might want to engage in.
@@mysteryperson706 I think I understand. Society shapes the way we act (perform). Our performance shapes how we perceive ourselves. Thus, gender and gender identity is artificial, with no material or natural basis, its just how we have become accustomed to acting due to society. How does this not mean that trans people arent real?
@@umwha the misunderstanding is the 'artifical' part. That is something you are suggesting, not something inherently put forward by the likes of Butler. Gender is real and tangible, just not innate and static.
Gender Trouble still being taught in my masters classes and here Judith Butler has long since moved on. So wonderful to hear their updated thoughts and reflections!
It is still taught on the Alevel course I teach... the auther says its 30 years out of date ha
@@jayamin1004 What a waste of time and money these courses are !
@@NoiseGrinder - what courses would that be?? All courses that use Butler's work, because neither of these commenters mentioned the type of course?
I discovered Butler's work as Master's student on an English Literature course. I came via the idea of language as performative - which was the work of J.L. Austen.
Well, you know... philosophy is a long dialogue, so if you want to jump in or understand what is being discussed you have to know what have been said before.
@@andres.alegre thank you for explaining academia to me. I have to apologize. I mistakenly assumed it was clear from my interest and surprise at what is being discussed by Judith Butler in this video that my issue is not with learning what has come before, but with the fact that my syllabi have always stopped at Gender Trouble and made it seem like this 30 year old work was the most current and up to date material.
Until I saw this video I thought surely she would rethink her take knowing how many rights have been taken from women, lesibien and gay people, even trans people and especially children because of this take
She needs to pay her mortgage and keep her tenure.
She was at the forefront of Feminist movement. You're just being ridiculous and irrelevant.
Two fundamental assumptions are being made, neither of which is true. First, it is not transphobic to believe that women's spaces are important and need protecting, that womens sports matter and that young lesbians are LESS likely to commit suicide if allowed to go through puberty rather than being given puberty blockers and pushed down a medical and surgical path etc. Second, that those who share these beliefs are 'right wing' or hold right wing views. The majority of feminists who believe that a woman is an adult human female which is a factual and biological reality, hold very left wing views on other subjects.
You're really shouting into the void there, mate. Pesky facts like that aren't welcome in these quarters.
Thanks for saying this
Rather dismissive of the concerns of ordinary women who are being told to share their women-only spaces with hairy-arsed blokes. It’s not the first time an academic immersed in their theories failed to engage with the real-world concerns of ordinary people.
We must make policy through data, not through feelings. So where's your data?
Sounds like you've never engaged with a trans woman before
She is transgender shill and a well known misogynist…
She's the RUIN of feminism and women, not a feminist icon!
How so?
Thank you for this discussion. Judith is a vision of grace, intelligence and wisdom. Wouldn't it be great for JK to sit down with Judith for a respectful and calm debate, now that would be interesting
I’m deeply fascinated by Judith Butler. I don’t question very much if I totally agree with her, but I apreciate the depth of her thoughts and culture. And what i love of her is the courage, politically, in many fields and her total humbleness.
Gender performativity creates stereo types that are instructive to many aspects of trans identity. It's an interesting internal conflict within the discussion. As a non binary person myself I sometimes wonder where the aspects of how my own ideas of femininity are arrived at. Contrapoints has some great takes on this too.
Sex based stereotypes is just sexism.
@@NotADood No, not always.
Just be yourself. Most of this gender bender stuff is garbage begging for attention.
I would love to hang out with Judith Butler - so interesting and inspiring
Yeah, jo hart, so would I.
@@TheNadiabear Judith is my go to 'dream' cup of coffee and a chat. Adorable .
Judith Butler is the antithesis of feminism. Couldn't be further from an icon.
100%
100%
Women simply want to keep safe and to ensure safeguarding is paramount. We're not 'against' including Trans people within our world. I would not exclude any minority group. I'm Liberal. But trans ideology is damaging to women, homosexuals, and especially children. Trans people should be accommodated and respected. Trans ideology doesn't encourage that.
How is trans ideology harmful? What is trans ideology?
@@Bibibi1990 It isn't, and there isn't a 'trans ideology,' Shah just doesn't get it lol
@@Bibibi1990 There is a movement called trans humanism and it embraces all that is trans in its ideology, incorporating AI into our bodies, disconnecting brains from bodies, removing genitals, et cetera.
@@CaballeroRiddare transhumanism has nothing to do with being transgender.
@@Bibibi1990 According to Butler it is debated among transgender, if it is generated from within or constructed in social context, i.e. could correspond to transhumanist thinking and theory, how we would b entering into a posthuman society of robots and new human or other life forms.
Means so much to me (as a young trans person) to see Judith interviewed properly!! Whenever they get profiled by anyone else the questions primarily consist of "isn't it bad that billionaires get criticised on twitter". Thank you Owen, and keep it going!
Butler is not a feminist, let alone a feminist icon. Here she accuses JKR of “capitalising on” the physical and sexual violence committed by men.
Credit where credit is due: A masterclass in intellectual dishonesty. I was going to comment on what Butler is saying but there are so many holes in her argument - if it can even be called that - that it would take all morning. So I will just carry on eating my left-over Christmas pudding in awed wonder at how come this woman is a 'feminist icon'.
Hi why not start with one or two of your thoughts and criticisms- - open up the dialogue - why not ?
@Paula Boddington. Exactly. No way is this person a feminist Icon, except in the minds of a very few MEN !
@@dhsumana407 because I am in the middle of decorating my bedroom!
@@prboddington Get back to your domestic chores and stop commenting on things you don't understand.
@@liarbrice4772 yes, oh master, I read and I obey, since you obvs. have superior intellect.
Thank you for platforming Judith Butler. The most misogynistic woman on the planet!
Has she ever responded to Nussbaum's critique of her views?
At 42:00, Owne Jones begins a discussion of the Tory government criticizing postmodernism and its pernicious effect on the academies. It's about time this criticism began. The government is right.
Maybe members of the Tory party have read Lyotard. Don't deny that out of hand, Judy.
Unironically using conservative buzzwords like ‘postmodernism’ to talk about the state of modern-day education simply shows that you have never set foot in any serious academic institution lmfao.
@@Dan_1348 I am aware that it is indeed a philosophical movement, but the way it is used by right wingers has absolutely nothing to do with the actual meaning. It is simply a another scary phrase that is entirely interchangeable with 'radical marxism', 'critical race theory', 'gender studies' etc.
Education is terrifying to conservatives, as anything that challenges the status quo, nationalistic sentiment or the historical whitewashing of the past is a grave threat.
@@DJ-my1sm " . . . . . . you have never set foot in any serious academic institution lmfao."
lol
@@DJ-my1sm Postmodernist thinking is rife at my university, you are more likely to find a Marxist professor than a conservative. You may agree with this ideology, but don’t pretend it isn’t there.
@@LEEEEMO seems we agree then.
Butler isn't a feminist! She bows before the patriachy!
You could call her a gender theorist. She does not fight for women's rights or liberation though.
@Ricky Fallon There is no patriarchy. It's a social construct and is performative.
Sex is not assigned at birth. We know the sex of babies well before they are born and in 99.9 % of cases this is the case.
Stop calling the other side "transphobic^ just because they don't agree with you. I could call you a lot of things that aren't true and out of civil discourse l don't.
Also don't you think that an example of the new patriarchy is really men taking over woman's safe spaces, athletics etc.This is how many white men are moving from the bottom ot the social hierarchy transitioning to "transgender" women and ending up on top.
J B's insistence that sex is merely 'assigned' at birth is a pernicious distortion of reality.
Sex is defined at conception and recognized at birth or before then.
Medical conditions that cause loss of function are not used to define physiology.
'We know the sex of babies well before they are born and in 99.9 % of cases this is the case.'
Do we know in advance what someone's hormonal sex will be at every stage in their life?
@@georgemioch8981 I refer you to the question I asked the OP. Also, the 'medical conditions' you refer to (not all of which cause loss of function, by the way) absolutely do debunk the notion of sex as a strict binary. A binary, by definition, admits of no exceptions.
@@tonycairns6728 It's true, though.
Listening to this great person in quarantine is such a privilege ❤️
I don't see the need for such controversy what did JK Rowling actually do?
@@cyrilandshirley weird how people running actual women's refuges are mostly pro-trans, whereas random people who spend time online aren't...
@@cfor8129 Weird how you have baseless anecdotes for that claim, not actual data.
@@darkwaddi Read the interviews conducted by the Women and Equalities Committee on Gender Recognition Act reform - the shelters unanimously say that the safeguarding procedures they have to protect survivors from cis abusers would be sufficient to protect survivors from trans abusers.
@@darkwaddi Women's Aid, an umbrella organisation for ~300 refuges, is trans inclusive. The majority of anti trans rhetoric comes from online radicalisation
@@pb1105 You mean listen to the trans activists invited first? Not the second group? I already did.
thank you SO MUCH for this interview - it’s really enriched my understanding of Butler’s theories and perspectives
Thank you very much for this video, it is so incredibly helpful and also warming to see how kind and humble Judith Butler is.
I do have one question though: at some point, Butler mentions that there is a difference between understanding gender as a social construction on the one hand, and as a performance on the other hand. But they then let it go.
Could anybody enlighten me on the difference, or mention a book they wrote which explains this difference?
Thank you very much again!
This is a conversation that is really worth having , as a White Working Class Man, I feel enlightened. Thanks :) x
@@maxambrose8839 Sound great, Anything in Mind ?
As a woman,I never met another woman who would have a problem with trans women in our bathrooms. This is something men say, who have never seen a women's bathroom (we have stalls, we can't see anybody's body parts, we meet at the mirror and give each other makeup tips). On the contrary, trans women in men's bathrooms are risking actual bodily harm, and we all know that because WE ALSO don't feel safe in men's bathrooms. Our bathrooms are open, come on in, it's rather friendly in there.
A lot of woman don't want to use a bathroom with males
@@marksanchez7323 again, really? Because if you ask most women, they have no problems with trans women. We like separate bathrooms because it's safer than being in a confined space with several drunk guys, but that's all ther eis to it. It's not like we have to share a urinal or anything. I never encountered this, always though it was a bit of a strawman argument.
@@marksanchez7323 Using a bathroom with transwomen* n ur a bloke telling a woman what women say..
@@allisonsteenson3035 No, most women respond to surveys stating they prefer single-sex restrooms. Transwomen are male, the same way as men.
@@marksanchez7323 you can't guarantee that the people answering the survey think trans women are secretly men the way you do
Not a feminist icon. Not a single word written by Butler is nearly close to feminist theory.
Fabulous interviews coming from this channel. I’d love to see Angela Davis or Michelle Alexander on here as well!
Love the Angela Davis suggestion, will get on this
@@OwenJonesTalks Julie Bindel would be more challenging and much more interesting. Are you afraid of her?
@@NoiseGrinder or anything isn’t an echo chamber
@@NoiseGrinder Julie Bindel would be great or Kathleen Stock. But yeah probably too scary for Owen. bell hooks might be less scary for him.
The echo chamber's deafening.
How fascinating.....my factual comment was deleted almost immediately. This is not a discussion- it's just another echo chamber
They stand no chance in discussion…
mine was taken down too
I agree.
I'm agree and I'm gay
They seem like such a lovely person!
Really great. she's absolutely charming. Thank u!
@@leafleafleaf9272 how . Could you elaborate?
The part where they talk about some people not being bothered by gender and just going along with it really resonates with me. It also initially lead me to be a little bit transphobic in a transmedicalist way before eventually realising I was wrong and also realising I'm non binary myself. I'm nb in a way where gender doesn't matter to me and a lot of it doesn't fit with the way I view myself.
The majority of people isn't bothered by gender, believe it or not. We usually see ourselves as "people".
@@cirimpufka did the majority of people grow up with body dysphoria? I didn't think that worth mentioning but seeing as you came here to invalidate me I also have that. Am I trans enough for you now? Do I meet your standards for my own identity and view of myself?
@@MyKeyMoonShine - I wonder if you have misunderstood pacufka's comment? I didn't see it as an attempt to invalidate you - but I might be wrong of course.
I really have trouble with the non binary thing - I don't really understand it and I really want to. If it means simply not buying in to what society thinks we should be and do if we are a woman or a man - then I am non binary. If it means that we don't see everyone as belonging to a discreet group that is either 100% male, or 100% female - then again - that's me. So, is it simply a stance, a position, that says "I disagree that we all identify with what society sees as male or female."?
If so, then, hopefully, it will not be required in the future (I am an optimist - lol!!)
What I suspect/hope is that, in the future we will all just identify by our name - we won't feel the need to say "I am a woman" or "I am a trans woman" - people can get to know us if they want that information.
This would mean that the concept of non binary and trans gender would die out of course.
We would still have trans sexual people but that's totally different.
@@honeychurchgipsy6 nonbinary means a person doesn't identify as completely a man or a woman. Whatever my personal opinions on gender, I can't accept a stance that undermines other people's experiences. But for me personally- I am much happier when I do not try to slot myself into the binary. So nonbinary is a personal thing, but the idea you're referring to is something I've seen before, maybe called gender abolition?
@@cfor8129 - thanks for that - I've been thinking a lot about how I think of myself lately - and how I 'know' whether I am a woman or a man ( I can know that I am biologically female of course by self examination - lol!!)
Of course, when I grew up in the 60's and 70's men and women lead very separated/demarcated lives - my dad worked away, my mum was at home looking after us.
I automatically identified with my mum - i.e. as a woman but since I only had what society told me about being a girl I had to go with that. I never had much in the way of maternal feelings (despite my mum being the opposite and loving babies). I love animals but babies - yuk!! Whereas my sister longed for a baby and helped with any babies that came to stay.
If this means that I am not typically feminine (I also hate nail varnish, high heels, and spending time gossiping about fashion and hair styles) then what does that mean?
ALL of those things (apart perhaps from the maternal thing) are created by society - so I have come full circle with not knowing why we need to have a label for not fitting with what is only a superficial/created thing?
I see a future where no one gives a flying F what gender we are (in fact gender wont be a thing because it will be as normal for a biological male to wear make up as it is for a biological female to hate it), and no one will care who you love - we will drop gender pronouns all together and simply answer the question 'Who are you?' with the words 'I'm Gillian/Tom/Alex/ etc'
Has anyone in these comments actually tried to read any Judith Butler? How did you get on?
Word salad…
Ah yes, going with the falsity of what the trans women did or did not do at Stonewall, or how important they were. Everyone was pissed, everyone fought back - trans woman were part of it, not some special part that needs to be held up above, as many now wish to do in some misguided attempt for blah blah blah.
Thank you for posting this. Did Rowling argue that all men are rapists? I read Rowling's essay but don't remember that bit.
The ideas of the people she agrees with sort of assume that a specific biology makes someone dangerous in that way.
@@cfor8129 If Butler argues the "not all men" point instead, then does that mean Butler agrees with right wingers or incels who say similar things? That's a worrying thought.
@@mrwevans lmao no, there's a big difference between not accepting biological determinism and failing to acknowledge the violence men enact
@@mrwevans an equally big part of the far right would say "boys will be boys" and "men can't help having urges"
@@cfor8129 Straw man argument
Why do they confuse gender and sex all the time?
Because THEY are ignorant of the facts!
@@chrisbaker3066 tHe FaCtS
This woman's style of writing is one of the worst I've ever encountered: although I'm sure that's the point.
She doesn't end waffling on. It's almost unbearable.
Says the guy who doesn't understand how colons work.
@@angrydonutface7420 And what business would you have with my large intestine?
She's changed her writing style since this trope about her first came into existence 20 years ago, and is incredibly articulate in interviews, evidenced in this video. Michael I beg you to get another hobby.
@@angrydonutface7420 - Although you could argue that a semi-colon is more correct, in that, the second phrase provides more information, rather than a contrasting piece of information, I have no issue with the use of the colon by Grundy.
A very deepening conversation for me. There is still so much more to learn and so many old assumptions to drop.
Name three.
@@SvenErik_Lindstrom3 Name any three beliefs and I'll show you three assumptions.
8:12 Butler says "Gender" is historical formed, however history has a beginning , she should locate the historical formation of gender and also identify what existed before that.
Yes I too am interested in dinosaurs' opinions on gender theory. 🤣
That would mean she'd have to stop bullshitting and acknowledge sex. No money in that.
I love you, Judith. You've inspired me endlessly!
"Assigned sex at birth" - I absolutely HATE this expression.
Well they observe, they assume, they assign. I mean countless of intersex people are getting assigned male or female at birth because those who observe don't know what they are doing in fact.
@@TheLeksilijum By 'countless' you're referring to something that is actually counted very effectively. It affects about one in one thousand births - roughly ten times rarer than Downs Syndrome.
@@tomjohnson6860 They are countless in the sense that they are not going to stop being born and that their number isn't limited. And I know they are rare, but actually roughly the same number as gingers. But what does that mean, exactly? What are you suggesting?
@@TheLeksilijum In Swedish "sex" means "six".
@@SvenErik_Lindstrom3 and how do you say пол ?
Wow! What a brilliant and hugely important interview. Thank you so much Owen and Judith.
JK Rowling is not saying that all men are dangerous. Some might be, and since we don't know who is, it's important to keep men out of women's places.
"Not all women are dangerous. Some might be, and since we don't know who is, it's important to keep women out of women's spaces!"
@@munchbob1 crazy how this is an interview with Judith Butler and they still commented that.
I think the TERFiness of the UK is at least partly explained by the radical feminist movement in the UK. People like Sheila Jeffreys and Julie Bindel seem to have been influential in the history UK feminist politics. The UK is a more cohesive/collective consciousness-y society compared to the US, which is more dispersed and individualistic, so that may have amplified the voices of people like Jeffreys and Bindel.
they are blinkered their intersectional thought is very limited to non existent
I replaced Bindel in a shared house many years ago. I remember someone saying she really wanted to be famous. She sounded like a really annoying woman.
I don't believe Owen's assessment of the number of feminists in the UK who are influential and non-trans inclusive.
Look at the example of Suzanne Moore at the Guardian. Her columns were not transphobic, but they were interpreted as such by a wide range of contributors to the Guardian (mostly from people who nobody knows). However, Moore's influence, power, prestige, whatever you want to call it, counted for nothing. What the incident did show was the disproportionate power and influence that some trans activists have.
Butler's repeated use of the term transphobic is inaccurate and unhelpful. As was her attempt to link those who question self identification of gender with bigotry, prejudice and racism.
As for her analysis of J K Rowling - that was diabolical. Claiming she had fostered hatred and misunderstanding, and found ways to persecute others as a revenge fantasy is a disgusting comment. Then in the next breath Butler claims she doesn't want her to face abuse. I would argue that Butler's summary of J K Rowling's opinions does nothing other than encourage gross stupidity.
Excellent comment. Thank you.
What a brilliant woman and an eye opening listen.
She is a horrible creature
@@paulhawthorne6242 yes I am sure that she is up there with the worlds most terrifying. 🤔
@@paulhawthorne6242 horrible. horrible.
antipolice commitment ? what does that even mean ?
I would really like to see an interview that includes both Judith Butler and Jordan Peterson.
I myself am a “gender non-conforming” person. (I'm afraid to use the word “woman” nowadays because I can't confirm its definition, or cis/trans to describe myself because there are people I hate in both groups.) When I'm attacked by some ultra-conservative for “not being feminine enough as a woman," I watch Butler's stuff for mental comfort. When I get attacked by ultra-trans people for "dressing masculine but not self-identifying as a man means you’re an ignorant transphobia," I watch Peterson's stuff for mental comfort. All in all, I've been lonelier since the trans movement started
I'm sure both Butler and Peterson are very intelligent experts. I think both professors have valid points that do not inherently contradictory. But I am surrounded by people who are sliding to extremes, and it is really hurt. I hope that the two professors can reach a reasonable set of consensus that recognizes both the social and biological nature of gender/sex and together oppose irrational social phenomena
As an example. I think it would be great if two professors could agree on the definition of some words.
For example, "woman". Is the definition of this word a "biological woman" (one born with a female reproductive system and skeletal structure) or "a person who shows feminine manners"? It would also help people identify themselves if the word "woman" is less ambiguous
Another example, "trans". Is it "one who self-identifies as trans is a trans", or "one who begins to transition through hormones is a trans", or "one who has completed the process of top and bottom SRS is a trans "? This point has been debated within the trans community.
If a word means different things in different people's heads and therefore causes a lot of arguments, does it mean that the usage of the word needs an improvement? Could professors invent some new words to clear the distinction?
Conservative gender essentialism and liberal gender essentialism are just two sides of the same coin. There's no such thing as cis and you don't have to be trans. You're just a female human being and you always will be.
Wow fascinating take! We need to learn how to ignore the unreasonable extremists. They are a large part of the problem.
@@NotADood False.
@@NotADood do you know what essentialism means wtf
How can you justify calling Judith Butler a “feminist icon” when all she talks about and concerns herself with is males with a trans identity?
Because she is
Physical sex is not something 'assigned at birth.' it's something we're conceived with when a sperm cell unites with an egg cell. It is this biological reality which adds to the torment of those whose minds don't match up with it. 'Assigned at birth' is a highly misleading term that fails to get at the heart of the Trans dilemma.
Love Judith Butler! They are brilliant.
Her work is poorly written and convoluted
@@andretorres8452 How so?
@@emlmm88No answer of course because they just don't like what Judith has to say.
You should also get Wendy Brown on the show. Her books on neoliberalism are AMAZING.