The realisation that the Vorlons are just the mirror image of the Shadows, and that Kosh was actually unusual in his degree of empathy for the younger races, is one of the more ominous twists in the B5 story. This season never fails to deliver awesomeness...
sorry for the necroposting but it's like humanity and the younger races are some middle eastern country in the height of the cold war between America and USSR.
This episode has a very interesting turn in Sheridan’s character arc that is not often discussed. In War Without End, it is revealed that Sinclair is the One who was, Delenn is the One who is, and Sheridan is the One who will be. Up to this point, it was always Delenn who was acting as the teacher to Sheridan and the others as to the origins of the war and the threat of the Shadows. In this episode, that role is flipped. Now Sheridan’s knowledge has eclipsed Delenn’s and he becomes the teacher, as he has insights that now go beyond Delenn. This is the moment when Sheridan took on the mantle of being the One.
Yeah, when the oldest being in the universe (EVER) is Surprised & taken aback? You KNOW things just "got real" on a never before reached level! (If he HADN'T been surprised? Then as awful as things were, it would still be somewhat Reassuring! "Well? Apparently, Life had gone through all this situation before & survived. So we may too." Instead of. . . ."Well, THIS is New. Which means Life might be Over!")
To me this was the best reveal in the entire show. They spent three seasons building up this epic Lord of the Rings style conflict between good and evil only for us to find out the whole thing was a lie This was a war of ideologies and younger races were all caught in the middle and used as proxy fighters in that war. Some of the best story telling ever on TV This is why I love this show.
@Black Sheep Biker The funny thing is, Vorlons doing what they did arguably proved the Shadows right. Coming back to B5 years and years after watching the show, on each re-watch i get more convinced that Vorlons lost the ideology war rather brutally.
Lorien is mentioned in The Fellowship of the Ring as they leave Lothlorien, JMS must be a fan because there are a lot of nods in the direction of LoTR in the entire show.
It's a very powerful decision to make not just vir, but us to also have to sit through all 39 strikes. It would have been easy to draw it out and build tension by cutting away and coming back to it later in the episode. Instead they make you sit through all 39 without leaving. I remember that scene feeling like forever even though it's only a minute or so.
This episode was directed by John McPherson and I think you can really tell that a lot of his work has been as a cinematographer. The visuals and the lighting, especially of that whipping scene, are top tier.
I can totally understand why Garibaldi was suspicious of Lorien. Nobody comes back from Z'ha'dum the same or alone. Mordan had his Shadow escorts always with him. Anna had been modified by the Shadows. She came to B5, took John to Z'ha'dum, and the Shadows appeared out of nowhere ready to destroy the station. Now John comes back with this mysterious alien, which they have no record of, but is privy to their most senior meetings. For all they know he could be the leader of the Shadows who has now taken control of Sheridan in some way. Sheridan is now letting him sit in their most senior and private meetings but they just have to take John's word for it that Lorien should be there. To say it's unorthodox is an understatement. It's practically insane how everyone just goes along with it.
Well, once they understand that Lorien saved John's life, it makes a lot more sense. Also, it's not like any of them could actually stop Lorien. Considering he's actually a giant ball of light from the previous episode, he's probably not bound to corporeal form. Like Vorlons and Shadows, his tech would be way more advanced than theirs.
Garibaldi is naturally paranoic and this was only further strengthened when his second-in-command turned out to be a mole and shot him in the back. He illegally hacked into Sheridan's files to make sure he could give him a measure of trust. That someone like Garibaldi would not trust Lorien on information he couldn't personally verify makes absolute sense.
The 39 Lashes is the entire Narn/Centauri conflict in one. Cartagia gleeful, Londo stoic because he can't do anything, and Vir trying not to bawl the whole time.
My favorite small bit in this episode: John is back. Delenn comes to him and hugs him. The first touch, however, is the back of his neck - feeling for the scars of the Shadow tech.
The revelation about the Vorlon fleet really raises this war to a whole new terrifying level. Even Lorien was surprised to how far it had now gone. And that flogging scene with G'Kar! So hard to watch.
G’kar’s scream is one of fury and anguish because he hated doing it, not from the pain. I binged your reactions for the first three seasons and the waiting for the new ones is excruciating. It’s almost as though I’m watching it week to week like I did when it was new.
@@YouHaventSeenMeRight Last time I did a full re-watch, every final disk in each season had rotted and were unwatchable, the others were on their way out but the final disks were just gone. It was somewhat frustrating to find out DVD's have a shelf-life of around 20 years!
So they both appear to go by the name Kosh. What if Kosh isn't a name but a title, like "master" or something? The Vorlans do seem to consider the younger races to be their pawns, by default. (as do the shadows, they just have a slickster junk-bonds salesman in Mr. Morden as their public relations emissary)
"Nuclear weapons will do that" there is a Sci Fi meme of All the Star Trek Captains trying to negotiate with foes that ends with Sheridan asking, "hey.... You got a nuke?"
"If he does not scream, he dies at 40" That was a perfect reaction to G'Kar's whipping. Cartagia is quite mad... Now, that is quite an entry: "Captain?!? ... We're sorry - We thought you were dead!" "I was ... I'm better now" An interesting way to put it, indeed! You're right on target. "I'm getting too old for that" **chuckle** That scene is priceless. Does something feel off with Garibaldi, or is it my imagination? ... and this: ".. Arcada 7 - it's not there any more!" "The base?" "No! The planet!" How chilling is that? Looking forward to the next several episodes ... Be seeing you!
I never noticed this before but... "you THREE went to Za'ha'dum"? But Leneer was also there, and quite instrumental in them returning alive and un-brainwashed! Poor guy.
Well the secondline A-list gets anyway much less then they deserve be it Lennier, Lyta (even so she is mentioned here), Zac or the Lt on the bridge whose name i forget^^
Referring to the Ambassador as "Not Kosh" amuses me. I don't recall any of us calling him that back in the days when this was broadcast. We just referred to him as the new ambassador.
@@LordPuki0001 Ulkesh was named in the novel "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" by Kathryn Drennan who had unprecedented access to jms. The novel is 100% canon and jms confirmed the new Vorlon is Ulkesh.
Many years ago one of my friends attended a book signing by Bruce Boxleitner and couldn't think of what he wanted as part of the signature, I suggested "I was dead but I'm better now". Apparently Mr Boxleitner chuckled a lot when he asked.
"I come to you now, at the turn of the tide." - Lord of the Rings Badass entrance for Sheridan. I love his response when faced with the claim of being dead. The Vorlons in a genocidal mood. As if this war wasn't bad enough.
Almost 7pm on April 29th over here in Canada. I loved your reaction to this episode!! I'm so glad you made it a 2 part video reaction. JMS had to speed up Season 4 so there is a LOT of compacted information in this Season...but it's well worth it all. Looking forward to more of your passionate reactions Medusa!! Thank you so much for reacting to this beloved TV show!!!
Re: "Do something!" to Londo when G'Kar was being whipped It's the Emperor, he's quite mad & perfectly capable of ordering all of them to be killed if the mood should take him. As for his guards, do you remember when Londo almost touched him when he was watching the Shadow vessels fly over Centauri Prime? Doing anything is a risk, could risk his own life or just the Emperor declaring G'kar must be killed no matter what.
Ta. Why on earth is watching you find so much to enjoy in something I found so enjoyable all those years ago... so enjoyable? Crazy, but a heartfelt thanks! Maybe it is knowing that I am not alone to think so much of these masterful series.
The Vorlons go after every world touched by the Shadows... I assume they know Earth has been in league with the Shadows for almost as long as the Centauri? (President Clarke was in contact with Morden when he was still VP... and he wasn't yet President when the Shadow vessel was dug out on Mars. Since PsiCorps was involved in that incident, I can only assume that already as VP Clarke managed to keep tabs on things for them. So maybe he'd even been in touch with the Shadows *before* Morden contacted Londo for the first time?)
John back. G'Kar gets whipped. Garibaldi is back and changed. Vorlons on the move. Lorien being Lorien. Answer, questions, answers within questions and questions within answers. JMS is an extraordinary writer. Hold on, it gets better AND weirder. Love your reactions ❤️
Every time I see the "I'm better now" scene, I wonder if JMS is a Month Python fan: How do you know she is a Witch? She turned me into a newt! A newt? I got better.
He's definitely a Python fan. In the "JMS Speaks" section of the Lurker's Guide he responds to questions about whether the characters are really dead he calls them "an ex-Keffer" and "an ex-Sheridan". 😂
In all possibility, it was Sheridan himself who's seen _Monty Python & The Holy Grail_ and, when given this one-in-a-lifetime opportunity to trot it out with sincerity, he could not resist playing the joke at the ambassador's expense.
What I love about this, is how well set up the Vorlon 'turn' was. At the same time as showing them as literal angels, it also seeded doubts as to what they really were such as when John speculated that they were manipulating and conditioning races, so you come here, you see a ship that is unfeasibly large and you find out they are able to destroy whole planets. It simultaneously follows on from and radically alters the mythology of the show but not in a fashion that feels cheap or unearned. And yes, profuse swearing at the reveal of the Vorlon fleet was an appropriate reaction
Go all the way back to the first season episode "Signs and Portents" (ep 13). Here is what jms had to say about Mr Morden & his associates and the Vorlons. "One lovely thing about "Signs and Portents," which you picked up on, is something I like to play with; implying one thing while saying the opposite. Look at all the shadow's main representative, Morden, does: he asks people what they want; he gets tossed out of Delenn's quarters; he is pleasant in his demeanor at all times, never yells, always smiles, and is courteous; he takes an action which saves one of our main characters, Londo, from disgrace and resignation, and helps in the process of scragging the bad guys in the episode. And yet everyone walks away thinking that the shadows are bad. Which was of course the intent...by the way in which they did "good." Kosh prevents humanity from achieving immortality, scares the hell out of Talia (cf. "Deathwalker",) never gives anyone a straight answer, doesn't seem to mind it if people fear him...and we walk away with the presumption that he is good, by virtue of the way in which he did things that were "bad." [...] This is something I do a lot in my scripts, which I don't generally see a lot of other people doing. You *really* have to construct the script very carefully to pull something like this off...a little game between me and the audience." "Morden tried to find out what the ambassadors would like. Morden arranged to rescue an important Centauri artifact. Morden helped wipe out the crooks. Morden saved Londo's career, and asked for nothing in return. And yet we get the sense that Morden is a bad guy. Kosh destroys our chance for immortality. Refuses to get involved in the affairs of others. Is plainly studying us. Terrorizes one of our main characters, Talia, for unknown reasons. And yet we get the sense that Kosh is a good guy. If anyone should ask, I really *love* writing this show...."
@@steveaustin2686 Well the chance for immortality included the need to kill half of the people for the others to maybe become immortal (deathwalker could lie about it)
I own this series on dvd. Every once in a while I'll break it out. There are moments in this series that will make you cry. And there are moments in this series that will make you think. So where's the reboot ?
There is a lot packed into this episode. One thing that often gets overlooked is that strange look Lennier gives John during his rallying the troops speech; when I first saw this episode, that stood out to me, and not in a good way. What was Lennier thinking at that moment?
Probably shock that the leader of the army of light would stand up and attempt to change the status quo. Minbari are a very ordered society and very influenced by the Vorlons, who champion order.
The man in the middle was Justin, given he was the literal middle man between Earth and the Shadows... although the dream might be intimating more than one middle man, so who knows. Im fairly sure JMS himself has said it was Justin.
Do you suppose G'Kar chose to scream at 39 stokes or did his ability to stay silent run out? I think the answer could mean a lot for his future. Did he sacrifice being a Narn for the sake of remaining alive? For the sake of his people? Or was his Narn identity stripped from him by Cartagia's torture? Honestly, I'm not sure which would be more tragic. ~ ~ ~ "He has opened an unexpected door. We do now what must be done now." - New Kosh in The Hour of the Wolf. Kosh learned to care for the younger races and how to go of his ego (a little bit) from John. New Kosh has also learned something from John. Bad, world-ending things. I prefer original Kosh.
That last comment from Lita, about no one within 70 light years will survive, bothers me for all the wrong reasons. JMS was good at rolling out a dramatic story but like most writers has no feel for the expanse of space and time. That's why he's hung up on " a thousand years" or in this case 70 light years. Remember when Morden and Londo was looking at a map of the galaxy, splitting it up into two parts? That suggests the shadows had reach across the galaxy. So if the Vorlons are going after anything touched by the shadows then the Vorlons will have to go destroying planets over a vastly greater distance than 70 light years. Yeah, I know, it seems trivial.
Depends. In 70 light years, you could easily have hundreds of planets. But, on the other hand, they do refer to galaxies which are quite a bit larger across (100k light years or so). Perhaps, like a nuclear holocaust, she was only referring to the planets at the inner core of destruction.
I agree the distances could be improved. If you look at the map of the war room in "And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place" you'll see there is a green outline of all known Shadow attacks. (Admittedly, "known" is doing a lot of work here.) The grid of the map divides the galaxy into 20-30 grid squares. The known Shadow activity is basically maybe 1.5 of those squares. If the Milky Way Galaxy is 105,000 light years across, then 1/7 of that (for the grid map) would be about 15,000 light years. 70 light years is a very small fraction of that square and a half. I, personally, blame the Psy Corp's obviously neglected educational system. Too much focus on who is or who isn't Mother and Father and not nearly enough on astrogeography.
Ulkesh is indeed a very unpleasant militaristic Vorlon. Kosh was more of a diplomat and didn't like him much either. Ulkeshs' attitude towards the younger races is kinda contemptuous and very apathetic. He sees them as fodder who should simply do as they're told. Kosh was a lot more empathetic towards the younger races and really cared about them. I miss Kosh.
The decision to destroy everyone touched by the Shadows wasn't just Ulkesh's, though it's clear that he was involved in it and backed it without any hesitation. I suspect that Ulkesh is a more 'typical' Vorlon than Kosh. It just occurred to me that perhaps the very fact that Kosh was sent to B5 in the first place might be an indication of his relatively *low* standing in Vorlon (making him similar to Londo in that respect). By the time of his death, B5 became much more important to the Vorlons, so they sent someone who was more 'mainstream', less of a soft maverick (from their PoV) -- and, in the process, undermined the very alliance that made B5 important in the first place.
It's odd to think now just how obviously political B5 was, framing things as "good vs evil" early on, but then refining it until the point where the "Good guys" and "bad Guys" are almost indistinguishable, and the people in the middle tend to stay on the sides they picked early on. Shadows vs Vorlons Right vs Left Dec Vs Ant As it always has been, I guess! The Conspiracy Of Light becomes (the equivalent) Anarchy, an attempt to remove the previous failed beliefs and an attempt to build a better one from the remains. I'm actually loving re-watching B5 for the first time in a long time, so thanks MD!
Strange when you consider, out of the Galaxy(younger) major powers: The Minbari The Centauri The Narn The Humans Only The Minbari are involved in the Shadow war.
Imagine how harder it would have been for the Shadows if more of the major powers were in the fight... ...imagine if Santiago was still alive (at the start of Season 2, Sheridan said the President was told the truth about the Mimbari/Human union of souls). If Emperor Turhan was able to broker recompense with the Narn. If the Narn were not conquered by the Centauri. If these four races were able to throw their weight with the Mimbari and fight the Shadows... ...pretty lucky for the Shadows, then, that things fell into place so the Mimbari were the only power still willing/able to stand alongside the League races.
@@BogeyTheBear It's not just luck. We know the Shadows were involved in Santiago's assassination and allied themselves with President Clarke. The Shadows were also involved (through Londo and Refa) in undermining Turhan's position and in Carthagia's ascension. If Turhan hadn't died, they might well have arranged for his assassination, too.
The drazi was right to call out Delenn. She was acting out of grief and was about to make a mistake that could cost them the war. But once again she gets a pass because she's who she is.
I have to admit, I really hated this season of B5 when I first saw it. I have come to appreciate it over time, but with how Season 3 had built up over the whole season and ended with such a cliffhanger, Season 4 should have opened with wall-to-wall action, characters seperated, characters fighting, characters on the run, but it's just this dead space, with the story having to build itself back up again. Plus, having to watch it on a weekly basis with an erratic TV schedule didn't help. The character of Lorien drove me nuts, still does, can't stand him. All the stuff on Centuri Prime is excellent, and once the rest gets it's swing back the appreciation builds, but these first few episodes are a bit of a chore to get through.
Sadly the 4th season got mushed together with what should have been the 5th season. I always wonder how things would have developed if the network hadn't said they were going to cancel the show after the 4th season.
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Thank you.
The realisation that the Vorlons are just the mirror image of the Shadows, and that Kosh was actually unusual in his degree of empathy for the younger races, is one of the more ominous twists in the B5 story. This season never fails to deliver awesomeness...
sorry for the necroposting but it's like humanity and the younger races are some middle eastern country in the height of the cold war between America and USSR.
7:20
When Lorien, a being that has been sentient for billions of years, is shocked..you know that shit has hit the fan.
This episode has a very interesting turn in Sheridan’s character arc that is not often discussed. In War Without End, it is revealed that Sinclair is the One who was, Delenn is the One who is, and Sheridan is the One who will be. Up to this point, it was always Delenn who was acting as the teacher to Sheridan and the others as to the origins of the war and the threat of the Shadows. In this episode, that role is flipped. Now Sheridan’s knowledge has eclipsed Delenn’s and he becomes the teacher, as he has insights that now go beyond Delenn. This is the moment when Sheridan took on the mantle of being the One.
that moment when Lyta said "no,the Planet" and loriens Eyes went wide. Even he could not have expected that.
It's always sad when your children fight.
Yeah, when the oldest being in the universe (EVER) is Surprised & taken aback?
You KNOW things just "got real" on a never before reached level!
(If he HADN'T been surprised? Then as awful as things were, it would still be somewhat Reassuring! "Well? Apparently, Life had gone through all this situation before & survived. So we may too."
Instead of. . . ."Well, THIS is New. Which means Life might be Over!")
To be fair he's been out of the game awhile just sitting there.
He hasn't seen just how far they both have fallen.
@@KBTibbs And when they murder billions of people.
To me this was the best reveal in the entire show. They spent three seasons building up this epic Lord of the Rings style conflict between good and evil only for us to find out the whole thing was a lie This was a war of ideologies and younger races were all caught in the middle and used as proxy fighters in that war. Some of the best story telling ever on TV This is why I love this show.
@Black Sheep Biker The funny thing is, Vorlons doing what they did arguably proved the Shadows right.
Coming back to B5 years and years after watching the show, on each re-watch i get more convinced that Vorlons lost the ideology war rather brutally.
Lorien is mentioned in The Fellowship of the Ring as they leave Lothlorien, JMS must be a fan because there are a lot of nods in the direction of LoTR in the entire show.
@@craigs71 "Rangers"
@Black Sheep Biker I'm sure the Minbari had the same feeling. WTF! Who are you people? 🤣
Each time watching I'm so impressed that in the whip scene they showed us all 39 strokes in real time without montage.
I understand why it was paced the way it was (lots to fit in the episode), but I still think it would have had even more impact had it been slower.
It's a very powerful decision to make not just vir, but us to also have to sit through all 39 strikes. It would have been easy to draw it out and build tension by cutting away and coming back to it later in the episode. Instead they make you sit through all 39 without leaving. I remember that scene feeling like forever even though it's only a minute or so.
This episode was directed by John McPherson and I think you can really tell that a lot of his work has been as a cinematographer. The visuals and the lighting, especially of that whipping scene, are top tier.
"Captain, we're sorry, we thought you were dead."
"I was. I'm better now."
Badassery has a name.
John Sheradon.
He was a newt as well...
@@inhumanmusic1411 Lorien is a witch? Explains a lot.
I can totally understand why Garibaldi was suspicious of Lorien. Nobody comes back from Z'ha'dum the same or alone. Mordan had his Shadow escorts always with him. Anna had been modified by the Shadows. She came to B5, took John to Z'ha'dum, and the Shadows appeared out of nowhere ready to destroy the station. Now John comes back with this mysterious alien, which they have no record of, but is privy to their most senior meetings. For all they know he could be the leader of the Shadows who has now taken control of Sheridan in some way. Sheridan is now letting him sit in their most senior and private meetings but they just have to take John's word for it that Lorien should be there. To say it's unorthodox is an understatement. It's practically insane how everyone just goes along with it.
Well, once they understand that Lorien saved John's life, it makes a lot more sense. Also, it's not like any of them could actually stop Lorien. Considering he's actually a giant ball of light from the previous episode, he's probably not bound to corporeal form. Like Vorlons and Shadows, his tech would be way more advanced than theirs.
@@MrBrock314 Since he is THE first one he would be for vorlons and shadows what they are to the younger races.
Garibaldi is naturally paranoic and this was only further strengthened when his second-in-command turned out to be a mole and shot him in the back. He illegally hacked into Sheridan's files to make sure he could give him a measure of trust.
That someone like Garibaldi would not trust Lorien on information he couldn't personally verify makes absolute sense.
Garibaldi has *never* liked big-headed people, it just manifests literally with Lorien.
The 39 Lashes is the entire Narn/Centauri conflict in one. Cartagia gleeful, Londo stoic because he can't do anything, and Vir trying not to bawl the whole time.
My favorite small bit in this episode: John is back. Delenn comes to him and hugs him. The first touch, however, is the back of his neck - feeling for the scars of the Shadow tech.
DUUUUDE.
YOU THINK THAT’S WHAT SHE WAS DOING?!
@@melissamenchaca9121 As John Sheridan would say, Abso-fraggin-lutely.
I am so jealous of you getting to see this for the first time.
Loved Leenier's face when Sheridan came back. Such a good performance.
The revelation about the Vorlon fleet really raises this war to a whole new terrifying level. Even Lorien was surprised to how far it had now gone. And that flogging scene with G'Kar! So hard to watch.
G’kar’s scream is one of fury and anguish because he hated doing it, not from the pain. I binged your reactions for the first three seasons and the waiting for the new ones is excruciating. It’s almost as though I’m watching it week to week like I did when it was new.
I was in the same position as you except when I binged, only season 1 and a tiny bit of season 2 was available. So i feel your pain!
@@YouHaventSeenMeRight Last time I did a full re-watch, every final disk in each season had rotted and were unwatchable, the others were on their way out but the final disks were just gone.
It was somewhat frustrating to find out DVD's have a shelf-life of around 20 years!
I know -- I caught up on her Farscape reaction and starting bingeing B5 reactions and now I am so close to having to wait. lol
Fun fact: this is the first episode of the series where every single credited main character actually appears in the episode
Well it was a summoning... interesting fact
In the entire series?
Really wow
"With not Kosh" priceless name for him,
So they both appear to go by the name Kosh. What if Kosh isn't a name but a title, like "master" or something? The Vorlans do seem to consider the younger races to be their pawns, by default. (as do the shadows, they just have a slickster junk-bonds salesman in Mr. Morden as their public relations emissary)
"Nuclear weapons will do that" there is a Sci Fi meme of All the Star Trek Captains trying to negotiate with foes that ends with Sheridan asking, "hey.... You got a nuke?"
the look of expectation on your face when John was walking up the steps was priceless! 😆
From this day forward, Ulkesh will now be known as Not-Kosh.
I literally just finished watching part 1
Good timing LoL
"If he does not scream, he dies at 40" That was a perfect reaction to G'Kar's whipping. Cartagia is quite mad...
Now, that is quite an entry:
"Captain?!? ... We're sorry - We thought you were dead!"
"I was ... I'm better now" An interesting way to put it, indeed! You're right on target.
"I'm getting too old for that" **chuckle** That scene is priceless. Does something feel off with Garibaldi, or is it my imagination?
... and this:
".. Arcada 7 - it's not there any more!"
"The base?"
"No! The planet!" How chilling is that?
Looking forward to the next several episodes ... Be seeing you!
I never noticed this before but... "you THREE went to Za'ha'dum"?
But Leneer was also there, and quite instrumental in them returning alive and un-brainwashed!
Poor guy.
Well the secondline A-list gets anyway much less then they deserve be it Lennier, Lyta (even so she is mentioned here), Zac or the Lt on the bridge whose name i forget^^
In the G'Kar torture scene all of the actors are amazing. I especially like the lighting on Cartagia's face.
Didn't anyone notice lennier s face when delen walked towards Sheridan..
Talk about pissed
Referring to the Ambassador as "Not Kosh" amuses me.
I don't recall any of us calling him that back in the days when this was broadcast. We just referred to him as the new ambassador.
Interestingly enough, in some of the written background material the original is referred to as Kosh Narenek and the new Vorlon is Ulkesh Kosh...
@@LordPuki0001 Ulkesh Naranek, not Ulkesh Kosh and Naranek = 'Speaker' = Ambassador
I'd always seen it referred to as "Kosh II"
@@LordPuki0001 Ulkesh was named in the novel "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" by Kathryn Drennan who had unprecedented access to jms. The novel is 100% canon and jms confirmed the new Vorlon is Ulkesh.
To me he will always be Darth Kosh.
Many years ago one of my friends attended a book signing by Bruce Boxleitner and couldn't think of what he wanted as part of the signature, I suggested "I was dead but I'm better now". Apparently Mr Boxleitner chuckled a lot when he asked.
"I come to you now, at the turn of the tide." - Lord of the Rings
Badass entrance for Sheridan. I love his response when faced with the claim of being dead.
The Vorlons in a genocidal mood. As if this war wasn't bad enough.
Almost 7pm on April 29th over here in Canada. I loved your reaction to this episode!! I'm so glad you made it a 2 part video reaction. JMS had to speed up Season 4 so there is a LOT of compacted information in this Season...but it's well worth it all. Looking forward to more of your passionate reactions Medusa!! Thank you so much for reacting to this beloved TV show!!!
Re: "Do something!" to Londo when G'Kar was being whipped
It's the Emperor, he's quite mad & perfectly capable of ordering all of them to be killed if the mood should take him. As for his guards, do you remember when Londo almost touched him when he was watching the Shadow vessels fly over Centauri Prime? Doing anything is a risk, could risk his own life or just the Emperor declaring G'kar must be killed no matter what.
"I'm sorry, we thought you were dead." "I was. I'm better now." My all time favorite bit of dialogue EVER.
If I am not mistaken, the Vorlon ambassdor is called Ulkesh.
It has officially hit the fan...
39 lashes was also supposedly the number that Jesus Christ was sentenced to.
Ta. Why on earth is watching you find so much to enjoy in something I found so enjoyable all those years ago... so enjoyable? Crazy, but a heartfelt thanks! Maybe it is knowing that I am not alone to think so much of these masterful series.
Vir is very brave, he's very silly, and I think he's going to be very sad.
BUT....I promise, in the end, he'll be alright. And get what he wants😉
You have to give the Drazi Ambassador: that's a heck of a pivot.
You said it's like a rollercoaster.
This is just the ride up the first slope.
G'Kar's refusal to scream under torture is also a nice call back to the episode where he is abducted by the Narn Assassin and Na'Toth rescues him.
I love how you get so excited and into some of the events. I also love how you're using "not Kosh". LOL
The Vorlons go after every world touched by the Shadows... I assume they know Earth has been in league with the Shadows for almost as long as the Centauri? (President Clarke was in contact with Morden when he was still VP... and he wasn't yet President when the Shadow vessel was dug out on Mars. Since PsiCorps was involved in that incident, I can only assume that already as VP Clarke managed to keep tabs on things for them. So maybe he'd even been in touch with the Shadows *before* Morden contacted Londo for the first time?)
I love to see how excited you get over these episodes.
John back.
G'Kar gets whipped.
Garibaldi is back and changed.
Vorlons on the move.
Lorien being Lorien.
Answer, questions, answers within questions and questions within answers. JMS is an extraordinary writer.
Hold on, it gets better AND weirder. Love your reactions ❤️
Every time I see the "I'm better now" scene, I wonder if JMS is a Month Python fan:
How do you know she is a Witch?
She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
I got better.
He's definitely a Python fan. In the "JMS Speaks" section of the Lurker's Guide he responds to questions about whether the characters are really dead he calls them "an ex-Keffer" and "an ex-Sheridan". 😂
In all possibility, it was Sheridan himself who's seen _Monty Python & The Holy Grail_ and, when given this one-in-a-lifetime opportunity to trot it out with sincerity, he could not resist playing the joke at the ambassador's expense.
When Angels fall, they go worse than anyone.
We're sorry. We thought you were dead.
I was. I'm better now.
Great line. Great delivery.
What I love about this, is how well set up the Vorlon 'turn' was. At the same time as showing them as literal angels, it also seeded doubts as to what they really were such as when John speculated that they were manipulating and conditioning races, so you come here, you see a ship that is unfeasibly large and you find out they are able to destroy whole planets. It simultaneously follows on from and radically alters the mythology of the show but not in a fashion that feels cheap or unearned.
And yes, profuse swearing at the reveal of the Vorlon fleet was an appropriate reaction
Go all the way back to the first season episode "Signs and Portents" (ep 13). Here is what jms had to say about Mr Morden & his associates and the Vorlons.
"One lovely thing about "Signs and Portents," which you picked up on, is something I like to play with; implying one thing while saying the opposite. Look at all the shadow's main representative, Morden, does: he asks people what they want; he gets tossed out of Delenn's quarters; he is pleasant in his demeanor at all times, never yells, always smiles, and is courteous; he takes an action which saves one of our main characters, Londo, from disgrace and resignation, and helps in the process of scragging the bad guys in the episode.
And yet everyone walks away thinking that the shadows are bad. Which was of course the intent...by the way in which they did "good."
Kosh prevents humanity from achieving immortality, scares the hell out of Talia (cf. "Deathwalker",) never gives anyone a straight answer, doesn't seem to mind it if people fear him...and we walk away with the presumption that he is good, by virtue of the way in which he did things that were "bad."
[...] This is something I do a lot in my scripts, which I don't generally see a lot of other people doing. You *really* have to construct the script very carefully to pull something like this off...a little game between me and the audience."
"Morden tried to find out what the ambassadors would like. Morden arranged to rescue an important Centauri artifact. Morden helped wipe out the crooks. Morden saved Londo's career, and asked for nothing in return.
And yet we get the sense that Morden is a bad guy.
Kosh destroys our chance for immortality. Refuses to get involved in the affairs of others. Is plainly studying us. Terrorizes one of our main characters, Talia, for unknown reasons.
And yet we get the sense that Kosh is a good guy.
If anyone should ask, I really *love* writing this show...."
@@steveaustin2686 Well the chance for immortality included the need to kill half of the people for the others to maybe become immortal (deathwalker could lie about it)
Yes, now the Vorlons are a threat as well. The younger races are just chess pieces in their game with the Shadows.
It wasn't the Vorlon fleet that destroyed Arcatta 7, it was that one big ship in the fleet!
The fleet goes with it, to protect it.
@@brandonreed09 ...or to hunt down fleeing survivors.
As a life long trekkie I was a late comer to B5 ..only the last few years ...this was an awesome episode
I own this series on dvd. Every once in a while I'll break it out. There are moments in this series that will make you cry. And there are moments in this series that will make you think. So where's the reboot ?
There is a lot packed into this episode. One thing that often gets overlooked is that strange look Lennier gives John during his rallying the troops speech; when I first saw this episode, that stood out to me, and not in a good way. What was Lennier thinking at that moment?
Probably shock that the leader of the army of light would stand up and attempt to change the status quo. Minbari are a very ordered society and very influenced by the Vorlons, who champion order.
@@SgtSplatter782 He did live a sheltered life up until his assignment to B5 . . .
(Lennier) 😒💭Oh in Valenn's Name, My Competition (For Delenn💓) is Back from the Dead!!!
The not Kosh Vorlon is named Ulkesh.
"We need to get Vir and G'kar off that planet!" Ready to leave Londo with the mess he made?
Thanks for sharing your reaction to B5. It's nice to see others who love it as much aa I do.
What timing. I just finished watching part 1, then I see part 2 uploaded 1 minute ago.
One of the best episode in the series and I love Sheridan return and speech
Perhaps Lorien is "the man in the middle" referenced in Sheridan's dream?
The man in the middle was Justin, given he was the literal middle man between Earth and the Shadows... although the dream might be intimating more than one middle man, so who knows.
Im fairly sure JMS himself has said it was Justin.
I definitely think there is an argument to be made that he was. Many people think it was Justin. I think Lorien fit the destruction better.
Do you suppose G'Kar chose to scream at 39 stokes or did his ability to stay silent run out? I think the answer could mean a lot for his future. Did he sacrifice being a Narn for the sake of remaining alive? For the sake of his people? Or was his Narn identity stripped from him by Cartagia's torture? Honestly, I'm not sure which would be more tragic.
~ ~ ~
"He has opened an unexpected door. We do now what must be done now." - New Kosh in The Hour of the Wolf.
Kosh learned to care for the younger races and how to go of his ego (a little bit) from John. New Kosh has also learned something from John. Bad, world-ending things. I prefer original Kosh.
He did it for his people, but he held out until the last stroke for himself. It was the best compromise he could make.
@@johnsensebe3153 Exactly
"Not a single world in 70 lightyears in any direction will live to see it". Oh ok then. 70 lightyears is a tiny corner of the galaxy so no problem.
I always called that 1 "blue kosh"
Part 1 was the last video I watched last night.
Part 2 is the first video I watched this morning.
70 light years is so...nothing. 7000 or 70,000 light years would have been more appropriate.
L'Oréan. Go on, wash the strength back in.
He might have been called (if the King Arthur / Monty Python theory is correct) Tim O'tei. B-dum tish.
the whirlwind of Babylon5 :D
i love the way you call the new vorlon "not kosh"
ok.. going to have to rebinge B5.. the question is do I watch it in release order? or chronilogical order?
There are some places where the release order is a little weird. I would suggest the order at www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/eplist.html.
Actually it was not Kosh who helped build White Stars, it was the current ambassador. The militaristic one. Kind of an irony indeed.
Wasn't sure you could watch G'kar's lashing.
That last comment from Lita, about no one within 70 light years will survive, bothers me for all the wrong reasons. JMS was good at rolling out a dramatic story but like most writers has no feel for the expanse of space and time. That's why he's hung up on " a thousand years" or in this case 70 light years. Remember when Morden and Londo was looking at a map of the galaxy, splitting it up into two parts? That suggests the shadows had reach across the galaxy. So if the Vorlons are going after anything touched by the shadows then the Vorlons will have to go destroying planets over a vastly greater distance than 70 light years.
Yeah, I know, it seems trivial.
Depends. In 70 light years, you could easily have hundreds of planets. But, on the other hand, they do refer to galaxies which are quite a bit larger across (100k light years or so). Perhaps, like a nuclear holocaust, she was only referring to the planets at the inner core of destruction.
Londo mentioned in an early episode that Centauri Prime was 75 light years from Babylon 5.
I agree the distances could be improved. If you look at the map of the war room in "And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place" you'll see there is a green outline of all known Shadow attacks. (Admittedly, "known" is doing a lot of work here.) The grid of the map divides the galaxy into 20-30 grid squares. The known Shadow activity is basically maybe 1.5 of those squares. If the Milky Way Galaxy is 105,000 light years across, then 1/7 of that (for the grid map) would be about 15,000 light years. 70 light years is a very small fraction of that square and a half.
I, personally, blame the Psy Corp's obviously neglected educational system. Too much focus on who is or who isn't Mother and Father and not nearly enough on astrogeography.
Ulkesh is indeed a very unpleasant militaristic Vorlon. Kosh was more of a diplomat and didn't like him much either. Ulkeshs' attitude towards the younger races is kinda contemptuous and very apathetic. He sees them as fodder who should simply do as they're told. Kosh was a lot more empathetic towards the younger races and really cared about them. I miss Kosh.
The decision to destroy everyone touched by the Shadows wasn't just Ulkesh's, though it's clear that he was involved in it and backed it without any hesitation. I suspect that Ulkesh is a more 'typical' Vorlon than Kosh. It just occurred to me that perhaps the very fact that Kosh was sent to B5 in the first place might be an indication of his relatively *low* standing in Vorlon (making him similar to Londo in that respect). By the time of his death, B5 became much more important to the Vorlons, so they sent someone who was more 'mainstream', less of a soft maverick (from their PoV) -- and, in the process, undermined the very alliance that made B5 important in the first place.
@@ugolomb Agreed. Plus seeing Kosh as Sheridans father was a very sad moment too. It broke my heart!!
Things get interesting from here to say the least :D
It's odd to think now just how obviously political B5 was, framing things as "good vs evil" early on, but then refining it until the point where the "Good guys" and "bad Guys" are almost indistinguishable, and the people in the middle tend to stay on the sides they picked early on.
Shadows vs Vorlons
Right vs Left
Dec Vs Ant
As it always has been, I guess!
The Conspiracy Of Light becomes (the equivalent) Anarchy, an attempt to remove the previous failed beliefs and an attempt to build a better one from the remains.
I'm actually loving re-watching B5 for the first time in a long time, so thanks MD!
The 39 lashes was very similar to the 39 lashes of Christ in Jesus Christ Superstar.
Me thinks a Certain Reactor is just Projecting Lennier's(Medusa 🧑) True Feelings 💘 for Delenn (Marcus 🧔)❣️❣️❣️
Cool. More. Good. Thanks. Here we go!
So much to look forward to you will be amazed
Strange when you consider, out of the Galaxy(younger) major powers:
The Minbari
The Centauri
The Narn
The Humans
Only The Minbari are involved in the Shadow war.
Imagine how harder it would have been for the Shadows if more of the major powers were in the fight...
...imagine if Santiago was still alive (at the start of Season 2, Sheridan said the President was told the truth about the Mimbari/Human union of souls). If Emperor Turhan was able to broker recompense with the Narn. If the Narn were not conquered by the Centauri. If these four races were able to throw their weight with the Mimbari and fight the Shadows...
...pretty lucky for the Shadows, then, that things fell into place so the Mimbari were the only power still willing/able to stand alongside the League races.
@@BogeyTheBear It's not just luck. We know the Shadows were involved in Santiago's assassination and allied themselves with President Clarke. The Shadows were also involved (through Londo and Refa) in undermining Turhan's position and in Carthagia's ascension. If Turhan hadn't died, they might well have arranged for his assassination, too.
It's not so much luck than them manipulating events (both on Earth and Centauri Prime) to come to this. The Shadows made their own luck.
The Narn clearly were to a small degree with how they drove the Shadows away from their world 1,000 years ago.
"notKosh" :)
Thank you for being you
Amazing Show so , many Ups and Dowbs Love it :)
Other shows would have chopped the whipping scene in some way, showing all 39 cracks emphasised the importance of what happened.
yay I'm still up
It's unfortunate that you have to cut down the most powerful scenes. When viewed as a whole the present the foundation to why B5 is peak Sci-fi.
Thankyou
The drazi was right to call out Delenn. She was acting out of grief and was about to make a mistake that could cost them the war. But once again she gets a pass because she's who she is.
Few rabble-rousers act out of anything but their own profit. Delenn does not, which is why what happens to her happens to her.
I have to admit, I really hated this season of B5 when I first saw it. I have come to appreciate it over time, but with how Season 3 had built up over the whole season and ended with such a cliffhanger, Season 4 should have opened with wall-to-wall action, characters seperated, characters fighting, characters on the run, but it's just this dead space, with the story having to build itself back up again. Plus, having to watch it on a weekly basis with an erratic TV schedule didn't help. The character of Lorien drove me nuts, still does, can't stand him. All the stuff on Centuri Prime is excellent, and once the rest gets it's swing back the appreciation builds, but these first few episodes are a bit of a chore to get through.
Sadly the 4th season got mushed together with what should have been the 5th season. I always wonder how things would have developed if the network hadn't said they were going to cancel the show after the 4th season.