I’ve been a big fan of your content for years now. I don’t play much on the PTR (I’m one of the few people still regularly running live keys) but I know that you’ve discussed that some dungeons feel substantially tougher than others. It will be interesting to see how relevant the keystone protection system will be for most people if the 8 dungeons are not tuned equally. If we have a season like we did in the past with junkyard where it is multiple keystone levels easier than the other keys then I worry that the whole protection system won’t mean much. One big benefit I see from this change is that it will hopefully encourage people to finish all 8 dungeons at a single key level rather than having their progression split among a multitude of different key levels and jumping into higher keys that they may not be ready for yet. Thanks again for all the great content!
@@ranksinatra-cx9gk thanks for taking the time to say that! I certainly think it's going to depend all on how balanced the 8 dungeons are. Let's hope it encourages blizzard to do their job better on that front.
the main thing that nobody is going pushing, is the fact that we (m+) only players are 100% reliant on vaults, now that the crafted item cost was lowered to 60, why not add an item for 90 crests that would increase the tier of 1 item from hero 6/6 to myth 1/6, that would have minimal impact in the beginning of the season but would highly impact alts or at least help with shitty vaults. What do you think?
because blizzard whole formula is to keep players ihe game with the weekly vault , that's theeir only way to do that , is to maximize rng , they want you to keep looking up every week and login for tha vault and get that dopamine rush to look forward for the next , even if you get a bad ones you keep your hopes up like "' no way i'll get 3 bad ones in a row" , if the vault don't get a whole rework , its gonna be the same bs , blizzard is unable to give people content outside of that vault.
I'd like them to add an item to the renown thing. In addition to the dinar you can use for a raid item, there should be a one-time thing that lets you upgrade a gear one track (for example, a delve trinket).
I would be perfectly ok with them adding an item like that to the token system. I think Blizz would be more apt to do something like that since it would keep you coming back every week for a full vault so you get the 6 tokens
Personally, I'm going to be more likely to invite people to a homework key if they havent timed it (ie, timed a 14 and applied to my 15). Maybe I'm being too optimistic but I think more players progressing the system will get invited to people keys next season because of this change.
I play multiple rolls Bdk/Fdk and healer either Hpal or MW. I also push keys within a guild group. We got to 11's when people started taking breaks until next season. When I pug keys, it depends on which toon I'm on if I am going to sign up for keys or push my own. Dps'ing i tend to use my own key instead of being looked over from to 20 other dps signing up. It's a lot easier as a tank/healer to get into groups. I tend to tell Dps players if they are tired of being declined or looked over then push there own keys. If I'm gearing an alt I will also push my own key and lower it appropriately as needed.
This gonna be a huge deal, i can image myself actually pushing instead of failing a key and try to push it back and wasting time in the process, as a tanks who does my own key i can feel relief when something goes wrong and know i could have a second chance to try again, i think that WoWOP + Raider Io score it's a perfect combination for filtering people that has really the knowledge or just avoid people that get boosted, I'm ready for s2
The reason i stop doing M+. I had a 16 stone vaults i brick then brick as a 15 then brick as a 14. Re rolled to a 14 mist and tank dc. After that my will to do keys died. So being able to not drop below a certain key lv will stop the despair that comes after bricking your key.
Basically same thing happened to me. My teammates burned out so i had to resort to pugginng. But after my 15 key turned into an 11, I was like F this… my sub expired next day and I didnt resub, waiting for s2
If the Key system was setup like the delve system where you walk up and choose what level you want to do +1 of the highest level you have completed. Now you dont have to have a key, and you can do the dungeon you want
If the keys where setup like the delve system when you walk into them. then you could almost also have it work like the Torghast system where you can only do a 13 if you have completed a 12. Also remove timers, and give some type of death penalty like +1 death per key level. At a +12 you would have a 13 death limit, you can still finish but only 1 loot drop at the end.
I'm curious if rerolling your key when you have a "floor", if it will go below that? Is it just depletes that has the floor? Lots of things we still don't know here. It's an interesting change, I think
Could you add an option to the completed column like tried again? I think when the key is at the next level, like 14, people will be just as selective and slow to fill. People won’t stick around to complete if there are mistakes. Then if it goes down to the 13 floor, they will just try one big pull with lust at the start and if the pull fails then they start over. So no real change at the higher level key but does make it easier to get your key back up to the higher level key if you are listing your own.
I don't know if "no depletion" will be a net positive or negative, but I definitely lean toward it causing more problems than it fixes. I think Blizzard agrees and it might be the reason they are only going with partial implementation and starting it at +12. For pugs I believe it's going to increase the leaver problem. Every chronic leaver in the current system will be just as likely to leave next season because their reasons for leaving will still exist and be the same. Additionally, you have now added the keyholder into that pool of potential leavers, a person who previously had a strong incentive to make the run successful. You have also added into that pool the people who weren't the keyholder, but persevered in a difficult group out of concern for the keyholder. Even the benefit of faster progression might not be as rosy of an outcome as anticipated. As a pug without comm's there is only so high players can realistically progress and it's not that many key levels above of a 12 even for above average players. Players might find themselves hitting that wall at 13, 14, 15, 16 very soon in the league and get burnt out when they feel like they can no longer progress, and this process is accelerated for organized groups. For pugs, people might also find disproportionately more difficult runs with the removal of depletions. The reason, in addition to the leaver problem, is that in the current system there are many "homework" keys listed where the key holder is listing a key a couple or more levels below that which they have progressed. This often means that player is overqualified and can overperform in that key level which reduces the required performance level of other people in the group and this allows them to gain IO easier with the aid of these over performers. This is slightly mitigated by the key floor being your lowest timed key, but if depletion were completely removed like people seem to want then nearly every listed key would be a progression key for that person. When people time a key they generally don't think about that, but many times a strong performance from even a single other person can make the run a lot smoother and the removal of homework keys reduces the chance and number of these overperformers. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other unintended consequences for removing depletions, but to think it's only going to cause positive changes I believe is naive. There is a reason that Blizzard has been so hesitant to implement this change and while they make plenty of mistakes, it's even more naive to think they haven't thought about and heavily discussed the possibility and effects of key depletion removal. If that's the case then why make the change at all? I can only speculate, but I think they still think it will have negative effects, but perhaps with the state of m+ and significant dip in participation they are willing to make a popular change even if they don't think it's good. A huge portion of the community have been loudly asking for the removal of key depletion for a long time and this implementation allows them to try it for the relatively smaller number of 12+ pushers while keeping the old system for the majority of the player base. I also speculate that if we were a fly on the wall of dev meetings this might be another instance of "they think they want it, but they really don't". I often hear a lot of criticism for that sentiment in regards to classic, but I think they were largely right about it. Most people don't want to play classic and it just further fragmented a shrinking wow population. I hope I'm wrong though, but despite how negative I may seem I don't think it's going to make a significant difference, especially since it's only partial implementation starting at +12.
Well said. We share a lot of thoughts. The "I think you do but you don't" thing is very interesting because I agree that it likely applies to a LOT of wow development now. Blizzard, despite everyone thinking so, actually knows what they are doing. People constantly give them feedback that they know wont work out well but they do it anyway to get those people to shut up. And the result is simply a worse and worse experience over time. its quite sad.
I imagine that the inconsistent keystone protection will end up causing some issues here and there because people don't really communicate and then have differing expectations. Mostly though I just don't think this will make a huge impact one way or the other compared to other changes.
Being able to do the same key over and over again to perfect it sounds really cool. I remember when i played arena and we would lose to rogue, mage, druid. I would always say to my friends that i wish we could fight that comp over and over again so we could perfect it. But you are right, I think there will be a lot of degenerate behaviour with this new system because there is degenerate behaviour going on in the current system we already have. It's not like the m plus community is going to see the light and learn to love one another just because keys don't deplete
Separately, I think this idea of no deplete keys and kicking people from the group is just putting the keyholder on equal footing to the rest of the party. The other 4 people can already do what you're describing right now in 11.0. Is it better for the game that more people can ruin keys? Probably not. However, if 4/5 can do it then it just marginalizes the 1. I'm not saying any of this is positive situation for either side. There needs to be a better way to handle this system all-together.
This benefits groups like mine a lot. We are mostly a 3 man team. If one of us gets all 13s and some of us still need them we get free prog. If we have someone with all 12s while the rest are still progging if we bring in bad pugs we can finish the dungeon and run it back later
I see your point. I can imagine a Tank spec, running their own key, with depletion insurance, is going to be very picky and prone to kicking underperformers and then quickly reforming a new group to try the key again.
@@christopherdaffron8115 ya I really think there are going to be a lot of groups that end up having the leader kick people when things aren't going perfectly.
Agree, I've had so many weekly 10 no leavers and people want to leave after the first death (early on in the season). The dream of "progging" keys is probably not going to happen in PUGs.
I’m hard stuck at all 10’s complete and it’s all on me. There isn’t any score goals to reach for that interests me. And repair costs have gotten too much for me. I could do content in the game I’m not interested in to farm more gold, but I have no interest in that. I’ll just enjoy checking out other games out there until the next season. I am hyped for the next season though.
It will be interesting to see how things turn out for Mythic+ in Season 2 with all these changes Blizzard has made. I wonder if player behavior will change in Season 2, for better or for worse.
Look, I've done all 16's and progressing 17's. Only got 3 17's now. Every time we deplete a 17, goes to 16 then pug depletes it all the way back to 13-14. This will stop us from doing homework keys as much, and we can just take anyone and try to push it back to 17.
Good to hear, hope it works out for you. Can you foresee yourself being willing to commit to multiple attempts with one group once you get back to 16 (and you have protection from depletion) or can you instead foresee yourself being even more selective and potentially demanding a more perfect run because you know you can attempt it more times?
This is not perfect but a great change overall. Lets appreciate a big step in the right direction. This obsession with reseting keys is overstated. Someone has to be the keyholder and this will improve every keyholders situation by removing a ton of risk in pugs and a bit of annoyance in push groups. Also non meta pug players are many times forced to run their own key so huge improvement for them. I will also be more likely to pug since I quit this season after my team disbanded so I had to start pugging but soon I got pissed after my key got depleted from 15 to 11 in a row after carefully inviting seemingly perfectly qualified players for each key level
I think the only time you're going to really care about doing your own key is, when you're about to finish doing those final "12's" you need: etc, etc. It'll be a never ending problem, hitting that next tier of "no deplete." So, it'll come down to how much mental energy you're willing to spend & suffer through, to achieve that next tier. You raise so many interesting scenarios though. So much to keep any eye out on the future.
You could be right; I do recall you saying the new affixes are terrible while every content creator was praising them (myself included), and turns out YOU were right
@@gordonwong3125 ya sadly I think a lot of people just assume what they asked for is exactly what they are going to get. In reality, that never happens so you have to think about what you would get instead.
With the changes to enemies health and the current state of tank's damage (about 30% of what a DPS damage looks like), I hope to be able to focus on tanking and bigger pulls. Blizzard just needs to fix the aggro problems, then I'm certain that season 2 will be awesome. As a tank, I don't want to feel pressured into choosing offensive talents when the struggle is to survive. If I'm doing difficult content, I want to be able to talent "tankier", and if I'm farming or helping friends I want to be able to do a little more damage in exchange for survivability. And I share the same thoughts about healing, as in the best healer shouldn't be the one that does the most damage. It will be fun to be a tank on a season where keys don't deplete and the success of the run relies on the DPS doing their job. Less casts, less interrupts, not every pack has a tank buster, seems to me like Blizzard, combined with the previous tanks and healers nerfs, is moving towards every role being true to their identity.
I strongly believe a lot of these folks have never played a team sport but have been in professional and/or academic situations where they thrived on perfection or have been expected to be perfect. Whenever someone apologizes profusely for a mistake, I tell them that Tom Brady threw 3 interceptions in his last AFC Championship game.
I legit don't know if it will be a net positive or a net negative. The eternal optimist inside me is HOPEFUL it will be a net positive but I am... not fully convinced. The one thing that really stood out for me and it was something I was thinking about before you even mentioned it was the spreadsheet. I think what might be useful is two changes. The first being a new tiny column labelled "Tries" indicating how many attempts the group took on the key before it was ultimately over (one way or another. This would also lead to a whole new set of stats on the number of tries that each of the key endings gets and how that iterates based on the class and specs that are in it. So mor data more ways of looking at the results you are getting in keys. The next thing I would think that you should add to the spreadsheet would be a fourth outcome, "kicked". So that if you get kicked from the key while attempts are being made that too can be tracked because it really is it's own different ending and not really a disband, completion or upgrade. This would also need to iterate on to the stats page with a whole new set of stats for keys that you were kicked from where you could look and say okay when I ran with a shaman healer it tend to get kicked less than when I run with and evoker healer etc. I think stuff like that could be really valuable for other questions that will start popping up in the stream like "Oh how many keys HAVE you gotten kicked from this season anyway?" and "Oh I see an Augvoker in this key I bet you get kicked from it, that's pretty much the norm now, right?" I know those aren't common question right NOW, but once the lack of depleting keys becomes a thing, I think there's a strong possibility that it might. As for the lack of people doing keys that they don't need because they simply don't HAVE to after their own key un-deplete-able I don't know, we might see a greater number of people moving down to sevens to farm crests and 10s to farm vault credit who have already timed 12s and 13s but we also might see less. Either way I THINK that the people doing some niche of the system will reduce. That being said too, I THINK that it's a baby step in a larger change that Blizzard is making to the keystone system that gets players used to the idea of not depleting before they introduce a system where, as you have so often advocated for, you use a currency to protect your key from depleting or depletions are taken out of the game entirely or however they choose to go. I think that with such an ingrained system as keystones they have to take little babysteps from season to season because that way they minimize the "culture shock" of the changes they WANT to make, AND they make it easier to not break the keystone system entirely when they put a change live that too few people have stress tested because so few people use the PTR for what it's meant to be used for and those that do quit far too easily when it's not a cake walk. Either way, just my knee jerk reaction.
I usually start of my week (after opening vault) doing my own key but if it drops by like 2-3 levels I am no longer interested. This change will 100% make me want to play my own key more.
@ honestly, I am not sure. It depends on the attitude of the players more than anything if they start flaming each other no point keeping the same team. I am quite eager to jump back into m+ as I stopped playing like a month ago and I’m ready to test these changes.
Doing our own keys on alts, the sign ups for keys under 7 are pretty mediocre if anyone signs up at all. Same for +11 keys (too high for vault farm, too low for score probably). For +7-10 it's always a lot of sign ups, probably to farm crests, heroic gear and vault. Sometimes people leave after joning when they see that not everyone is 630+ ilvl but before starting the key which is fine. Often enough people just quit though after a single wipe and we're left with a bunch of +9 keys when farming vault for alts which is the point at which we would sign up to other groups instead. We even had a shaman in our +10 mists group once who timed a +14 already who wanted to quit since he thought we wouldn't time the +10 after dying once in the maze which I found really odd but at least we got him so stay and had 5min left when finishing. It wasn't even that close or slow and I couldn't really understand why he would care about timing a +10 when he doesn't need it and think it's over when we are close to second boss with only 15 minutes off the clock.
@@musicxmp3533 ya stuff like that shaman is what scares me. A lot of people are just totally backwards in their thinking. I always say they are speed running a disband instead of an upgrade. They are there looking for the first opportunity to give up.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Yeah, I mean you deplete 100% of the keys you are leaving, if you stay there is often a very reasonable chance that it's still gonna work out. Even if not, it's still an opportunity to learn and a way of respecting the keyholder to at least finish it even if you might be 1 min over the timer in the end.
My overall reaction is to wait and see, mildly net positive expectation. I have one fear for anti-meta specs to have worse problems getting groups. If there's going to be more groups available, are tanks/healers going to pick those groups with anti-meta class in them? Even now you have to be blessed to get those roles, and it sometimes can take a long time, talking 30m+. I was in a +13 siege group as healer+3dps for 30m few days ago, it happens even as healer. For many, there's no room for it to get worse. Hope it won't happen, but I do see it possible the game turns into more metaslavey than before.
While you're more focused on the impact this will have in the 12+ key range, and the possible positives and negatives, there is a huge negative this could have in the +10 and below key range. Most heroic raiding guilds have people that can get 2.8k rating in the first week or two but have lots of members who really should be in the 2-8 range for several weeks learning the dungeons, what happens when those 2.8k players break off into the other members and run +10 no leaver keys for several days? Even if the 2-8 level players could only succeed 15% of the time in a +10, they will have inflated their IO and ilvl in just a few days. This should actually be good fun/more relaxed fun for my guild because not timing wont deplete the 8 or 10 key, can just hang with the boys and do some dungeons/get some loot but who knows what happens when they queue for a 10 key in pugs that *cough* they maybe aren't ready for.
@@heythereguysitsMetro oh, you may be right, I just re-read the blue post: "Reward: Failing to clear a Mythic+ dungeon within the timer will no longer reduce the level of your Keystones below 12 for the season. Keystone from the weekly vault will not decay below level 12 with this achievement. Keystone can still be lowered below level 12 by speaking to Lindormi." I was thinking that because you could lower it by talking to the panda lady that they would also not decay below 12, but that may not be the case, the language is ambiguous.
@heythereguysitsMetro well if I have downgrade protection I'll feel more comfortable taking less experienced guildies. But I don't really see this happening at 12 and above. My biggest fear is the "reset and go again" I'd rather finish and not time a key then reset and go again. I do want score but I also want to fill my vault. And I only have so much time. Resetting feels like a waste of time.
The stuff youre talking about in the first half of the video Alrdy happens 100% people say "he hasnt done a 13 yet in X so im not gunna invite him" Happens all the time so that will just be more of the same really. I do think people will rerun the same key after a failed one.. all be it they prolly remove the problem player in the group. i will deff be doing my key once i get the 12-14 achievement .. i feel like there will deff be a lot more keys listed b/c of that fail safe of it not going below X.. and its great for the higher key pushers too b/c no more homework keys too.
Its not true that people who play for RIO dont do their key if they dont need it because when you time the key it becomes something you need. I am one of the people who play for score and I do my key regularly because otherwise I dont get invited much. The problem with the current system is the depleting of homework keys. If I have a 16 that I need and deplete in im like ok lets do the 15 and get the key up again but then I get lower rio people for the 15 because thats who needs the key and we deplete it to 14, then deplete the 14 as well with even worse people. So at this point Im stuck with a key that is 3 level below the one I need and if I want to push it back to 16 I have to commit a huge amount of time playing key I dont need. So my key becomes dead for the week and I have to apply but get invited once every 2 hours and at this point the game is a huge time waste with very low reward. Couple of weeks of the above happening and I dont have the desire to keep going and quit for the season. That is the experiance of many players so no depleting of homework keys is huge.
people will do same same key they already did for groups that say "forming push group/time and go next key" but I have hard time trusting those groups.. last time I joined a group that said "++ and go the next key" I performed my best and helped them ++ and at the end of the dungeon they just kicked me. they were asshole guild and its not everyone but still its such a risk to trust people I hate people
Currently not playing because game is shit. But always glad to see them make changes. Maybe m+ is gonna be good again next expac. I love playing keys all day long, even if I don't get score from it. "Oh, let's equip another char? Sure!" The less I get punished for it, the better. But no one and their three mothers could ever force me to do my own key. As a dps I only get other dps to sign up, as a tank I don't need to because I can just latch onto someone elses ship.
@@Vis_Electra mythic plus is already good if you ask me! I hope these changes will make you want to give it another try, but obviously if you feel like it's that bad now it probably won't be changing that significantly enough to change that thought.
Blizzard IMO has often placed their opinion higher in terms of priority than the players. I could get into a very long conversation on why, and give really good examples. But, no one like paragraph comments. Keys depleting is, toxic in its nature. It's completely unnecessary. Give players the power to do it themselves if they think it's too hard. Why create an issue that doesn't need to exist.
@@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk ya I get you on that but it's the way the system has been designed and has been that way for a long long time. I don't agree that it's a good idea to keep it. But we know how bad they are at changing their core systems.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Haha, Blizzard is legendary for taking something that should be simple, and making it seem so difficult. They already have a vendor to lower a key manually. I believe most of what they need is already there. Have her at the end of every dungeon, if they want to drop it, they can. They'd only have to stop the key from Auto dropping. Their fix? make it so this only functions at 12+ was it? hah.
@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk ya but it's just that they believe keys going backwards is beneficial for their system. We disagree with them, but ultimately they have their reasons.
@@heythereguysitsMetro that's an unfortunate belief they have. And that belief leads to more people having sometimes over the top expectations due to the sole fear of the key lowering. But yeah, at the end of the day Blizzard gonna do what Blizzard gonna do. lol. I think eventually they will. I think letting 12@+ do it is just a precursor to the inevitable.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Mythic + should be fun. Most of the time everyone is just annoyed. Mythics are simply outdated and need a complete overhaul. The best players should be rewarded more, because at the moment it doesn't matter whether you're at the top or at the bottom in DPS, everyone gets the same rewards. No. 1. The game needs a ladder for different classes, best DK tank or best holy priest etc. No. 2. Up to Mythic + 5 you need an auto group finder. No. 3. Get rid of key stones!! I just want to run my 2-3 favorite dungeons and have fun. No. 4. Renown system like they're going to introduce for raids!! Every Mythic run should be worthwhile. No. 5. Rank system like in PvP with rewards up to level 500+. (For killing monsters and completing dungeons you would get mythic "honor" etc. and you would recognize the mythic + bois immediately) These are just a couple of ideas. 😘
i rly dont know, but i thinki its a cool change for people pushing rank 1 in pug, for the rest dont change to much maybe for a social aspect i can bring my low friends in a key dat cant be deplete under dat level, i like remeber the boosting problem with this system
I’ve been a big fan of your content for years now. I don’t play much on the PTR (I’m one of the few people still regularly running live keys) but I know that you’ve discussed that some dungeons feel substantially tougher than others. It will be interesting to see how relevant the keystone protection system will be for most people if the 8 dungeons are not tuned equally. If we have a season like we did in the past with junkyard where it is multiple keystone levels easier than the other keys then I worry that the whole protection system won’t mean much. One big benefit I see from this change is that it will hopefully encourage people to finish all 8 dungeons at a single key level rather than having their progression split among a multitude of different key levels and jumping into higher keys that they may not be ready for yet. Thanks again for all the great content!
@@ranksinatra-cx9gk thanks for taking the time to say that! I certainly think it's going to depend all on how balanced the 8 dungeons are. Let's hope it encourages blizzard to do their job better on that front.
the main thing that nobody is going pushing, is the fact that we (m+) only players are 100% reliant on vaults, now that the crafted item cost was lowered to 60, why not add an item for 90 crests that would increase the tier of 1 item from hero 6/6 to myth 1/6, that would have minimal impact in the beginning of the season but would highly impact alts or at least help with shitty vaults. What do you think?
That's my exact idea that I have been saying they should do for a long while now. You should be able to turn hero track gear into mythic for sure.
This is brilliant idea. I haven't gotten any gear from the vault in almost 6 weeks. The rng system is so stupid for later in the season
because blizzard whole formula is to keep players ihe game with the weekly vault , that's theeir only way to do that , is to maximize rng , they want you to keep looking up every week and login for tha vault and get that dopamine rush to look forward for the next , even if you get a bad ones you keep your hopes up like "' no way i'll get 3 bad ones in a row" , if the vault don't get a whole rework , its gonna be the same bs , blizzard is unable to give people content outside of that vault.
I'd like them to add an item to the renown thing. In addition to the dinar you can use for a raid item, there should be a one-time thing that lets you upgrade a gear one track (for example, a delve trinket).
I would be perfectly ok with them adding an item like that to the token system. I think Blizz would be more apt to do something like that since it would keep you coming back every week for a full vault so you get the 6 tokens
Personally, I'm going to be more likely to invite people to a homework key if they havent timed it (ie, timed a 14 and applied to my 15).
Maybe I'm being too optimistic but I think more players progressing the system will get invited to people keys next season because of this change.
@@JevyJ I hope you are right!
I usually don’t invite people who have the key in time, as they tend to leave rather quickly after few mistakes.
Great thoughts, I also always think of the Monkeyspaw scenario whenever Blizz makes a change to something...
@@seafoodsalad3356 ya sadly you have to.
I play multiple rolls Bdk/Fdk and healer either Hpal or MW. I also push keys within a guild group. We got to 11's when people started taking breaks until next season. When I pug keys, it depends on which toon I'm on if I am going to sign up for keys or push my own. Dps'ing i tend to use my own key instead of being looked over from to 20 other dps signing up. It's a lot easier as a tank/healer to get into groups. I tend to tell Dps players if they are tired of being declined or looked over then push there own keys. If I'm gearing an alt I will also push my own key and lower it appropriately as needed.
This gonna be a huge deal, i can image myself actually pushing instead of failing a key and try to push it back and wasting time in the process, as a tanks who does my own key i can feel relief when something goes wrong and know i could have a second chance to try again, i think that WoWOP + Raider Io score it's a perfect combination for filtering people that has really the knowledge or just avoid people that get boosted, I'm ready for s2
@@Steve-xg7zy I hope it lives up to your excitement!
The reason i stop doing M+. I had a 16 stone vaults i brick then brick as a 15 then brick as a 14. Re rolled to a 14 mist and tank dc. After that my will to do keys died. So being able to not drop below a certain key lv will stop the despair that comes after bricking your key.
Oh ya well glad to hear it will help you. I imagine most people just stop after the first deplete haha
Basically same thing happened to me. My teammates burned out so i had to resort to pugginng. But after my 15 key turned into an 11, I was like F this… my sub expired next day and I didnt resub, waiting for s2
If the Key system was setup like the delve system where you walk up and choose what level you want to do +1 of the highest level you have completed. Now you dont have to have a key, and you can do the dungeon you want
Right, but that also makes climbing way way easier. Its pretty clear Blizzard does not want the system to play out like that.
If the keys where setup like the delve system when you walk into them. then you could almost also have it work like the Torghast system where you can only do a 13 if you have completed a 12. Also remove timers, and give some type of death penalty like +1 death per key level. At a +12 you would have a 13 death limit, you can still finish but only 1 loot drop at the end.
I'm curious if rerolling your key when you have a "floor", if it will go below that? Is it just depletes that has the floor? Lots of things we still don't know here. It's an interesting change, I think
@@atreusduvelll600 rerolling doesn't lower the key anyway so probably no change there but not a bad question. Ya never know.
Could you add an option to the completed column like tried again?
I think when the key is at the next level, like 14, people will be just as selective and slow to fill. People won’t stick around to complete if there are mistakes.
Then if it goes down to the 13 floor, they will just try one big pull with lust at the start and if the pull fails then they start over.
So no real change at the higher level key but does make it easier to get your key back up to the higher level key if you are listing your own.
Ya still considering how to handle the spreadsheet. We will see. But ya you are probably right.
I don't know if "no depletion" will be a net positive or negative, but I definitely lean toward it causing more problems than it fixes. I think Blizzard agrees and it might be the reason they are only going with partial implementation and starting it at +12. For pugs I believe it's going to increase the leaver problem. Every chronic leaver in the current system will be just as likely to leave next season because their reasons for leaving will still exist and be the same. Additionally, you have now added the keyholder into that pool of potential leavers, a person who previously had a strong incentive to make the run successful. You have also added into that pool the people who weren't the keyholder, but persevered in a difficult group out of concern for the keyholder.
Even the benefit of faster progression might not be as rosy of an outcome as anticipated. As a pug without comm's there is only so high players can realistically progress and it's not that many key levels above of a 12 even for above average players. Players might find themselves hitting that wall at 13, 14, 15, 16 very soon in the league and get burnt out when they feel like they can no longer progress, and this process is accelerated for organized groups.
For pugs, people might also find disproportionately more difficult runs with the removal of depletions. The reason, in addition to the leaver problem, is that in the current system there are many "homework" keys listed where the key holder is listing a key a couple or more levels below that which they have progressed. This often means that player is overqualified and can overperform in that key level which reduces the required performance level of other people in the group and this allows them to gain IO easier with the aid of these over performers. This is slightly mitigated by the key floor being your lowest timed key, but if depletion were completely removed like people seem to want then nearly every listed key would be a progression key for that person. When people time a key they generally don't think about that, but many times a strong performance from even a single other person can make the run a lot smoother and the removal of homework keys reduces the chance and number of these overperformers.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were other unintended consequences for removing depletions, but to think it's only going to cause positive changes I believe is naive. There is a reason that Blizzard has been so hesitant to implement this change and while they make plenty of mistakes, it's even more naive to think they haven't thought about and heavily discussed the possibility and effects of key depletion removal. If that's the case then why make the change at all? I can only speculate, but I think they still think it will have negative effects, but perhaps with the state of m+ and significant dip in participation they are willing to make a popular change even if they don't think it's good. A huge portion of the community have been loudly asking for the removal of key depletion for a long time and this implementation allows them to try it for the relatively smaller number of 12+ pushers while keeping the old system for the majority of the player base.
I also speculate that if we were a fly on the wall of dev meetings this might be another instance of "they think they want it, but they really don't". I often hear a lot of criticism for that sentiment in regards to classic, but I think they were largely right about it. Most people don't want to play classic and it just further fragmented a shrinking wow population. I hope I'm wrong though, but despite how negative I may seem I don't think it's going to make a significant difference, especially since it's only partial implementation starting at +12.
Well said. We share a lot of thoughts. The "I think you do but you don't" thing is very interesting because I agree that it likely applies to a LOT of wow development now. Blizzard, despite everyone thinking so, actually knows what they are doing. People constantly give them feedback that they know wont work out well but they do it anyway to get those people to shut up.
And the result is simply a worse and worse experience over time. its quite sad.
I imagine that the inconsistent keystone protection will end up causing some issues here and there because people don't really communicate and then have differing expectations.
Mostly though I just don't think this will make a huge impact one way or the other compared to other changes.
@@amera35 ya that's a good point there. People may expect to run the keys more than once but they won't be able to.
Being able to do the same key over and over again to perfect it sounds really cool. I remember when i played arena and we would lose to rogue, mage, druid. I would always say to my friends that i wish we could fight that comp over and over again so we could perfect it. But you are right, I think there will be a lot of degenerate behaviour with this new system because there is degenerate behaviour going on in the current system we already have. It's not like the m plus community is going to see the light and learn to love one another just because keys don't deplete
@@dirkgoodman4282 ya it SHOULD be great but sadly players really take the worst approach to a lot of these topics.
Is the "link achievement" thing not what people already do with score? Not sure what changes with the achievement.
Separately, I think this idea of no deplete keys and kicking people from the group is just putting the keyholder on equal footing to the rest of the party. The other 4 people can already do what you're describing right now in 11.0. Is it better for the game that more people can ruin keys? Probably not. However, if 4/5 can do it then it just marginalizes the 1.
I'm not saying any of this is positive situation for either side. There needs to be a better way to handle this system all-together.
@@UnknownSoldier412 right ya I was just saying it's not immediately going to be better.
This benefits groups like mine a lot.
We are mostly a 3 man team. If one of us gets all 13s and some of us still need them we get free prog.
If we have someone with all 12s while the rest are still progging if we bring in bad pugs we can finish the dungeon and run it back later
thats good for sure
I see your point. I can imagine a Tank spec, running their own key, with depletion insurance, is going to be very picky and prone to kicking underperformers and then quickly reforming a new group to try the key again.
@@christopherdaffron8115 ya I really think there are going to be a lot of groups that end up having the leader kick people when things aren't going perfectly.
Depletion insurance, I see a new market for tanks. Guaranteed key sells of a certain level using their own key.
@@Draemencia Oh wow didn't even think about this. Ya, you can easily sell your key as an infinite key to some one who needs it. Interesting stuff.
Agree, I've had so many weekly 10 no leavers and people want to leave after the first death (early on in the season). The dream of "progging" keys is probably not going to happen in PUGs.
ya sadly
I’m hard stuck at all 10’s complete and it’s all on me. There isn’t any score goals to reach for that interests me. And repair costs have gotten too much for me. I could do content in the game I’m not interested in to farm more gold, but I have no interest in that.
I’ll just enjoy checking out other games out there until the next season. I am hyped for the next season though.
No harm in taking a break!
It will be interesting to see how things turn out for Mythic+ in Season 2 with all these changes Blizzard has made. I wonder if player behavior will change in Season 2, for better or for worse.
@@christopherdaffron8115 that's what we are discussing in these two videos!
Look, I've done all 16's and progressing 17's. Only got 3 17's now. Every time we deplete a 17, goes to 16 then pug depletes it all the way back to 13-14. This will stop us from doing homework keys as much, and we can just take anyone and try to push it back to 17.
Good to hear, hope it works out for you. Can you foresee yourself being willing to commit to multiple attempts with one group once you get back to 16 (and you have protection from depletion) or can you instead foresee yourself being even more selective and potentially demanding a more perfect run because you know you can attempt it more times?
This is not perfect but a great change overall. Lets appreciate a big step in the right direction. This obsession with reseting keys is overstated. Someone has to be the keyholder and this will improve every keyholders situation by removing a ton of risk in pugs and a bit of annoyance in push groups. Also non meta pug players are many times forced to run their own key so huge improvement for them.
I will also be more likely to pug since I quit this season after my team disbanded so I had to start pugging but soon I got pissed after my key got depleted from 15 to 11 in a row after carefully inviting seemingly perfectly qualified players for each key level
I hope it goes well for sure. I am just skeptical. I believe it will open new problems.
I think the only time you're going to really care about doing your own key is, when you're about to finish doing those final "12's" you need: etc, etc.
It'll be a never ending problem, hitting that next tier of "no deplete." So, it'll come down to how much mental energy you're willing to spend & suffer through, to achieve that next tier.
You raise so many interesting scenarios though. So much to keep any eye out on the future.
Ya, I think its got a lot of potential so I'm eager to see how it plays out for sure.
You could be right; I do recall you saying the new affixes are terrible while every content creator was praising them (myself included), and turns out YOU were right
@@gordonwong3125 ya sadly I think a lot of people just assume what they asked for is exactly what they are going to get. In reality, that never happens so you have to think about what you would get instead.
With the changes to enemies health and the current state of tank's damage (about 30% of what a DPS damage looks like), I hope to be able to focus on tanking and bigger pulls. Blizzard just needs to fix the aggro problems, then I'm certain that season 2 will be awesome.
As a tank, I don't want to feel pressured into choosing offensive talents when the struggle is to survive. If I'm doing difficult content, I want to be able to talent "tankier", and if I'm farming or helping friends I want to be able to do a little more damage in exchange for survivability. And I share the same thoughts about healing, as in the best healer shouldn't be the one that does the most damage.
It will be fun to be a tank on a season where keys don't deplete and the success of the run relies on the DPS doing their job. Less casts, less interrupts, not every pack has a tank buster, seems to me like Blizzard, combined with the previous tanks and healers nerfs, is moving towards every role being true to their identity.
Hopefully.
I strongly believe a lot of these folks have never played a team sport but have been in professional and/or academic situations where they thrived on perfection or have been expected to be perfect. Whenever someone apologizes profusely for a mistake, I tell them that Tom Brady threw 3 interceptions in his last AFC Championship game.
Great retort there for sure.
I legit don't know if it will be a net positive or a net negative. The eternal optimist inside me is HOPEFUL it will be a net positive but I am... not fully convinced. The one thing that really stood out for me and it was something I was thinking about before you even mentioned it was the spreadsheet. I think what might be useful is two changes. The first being a new tiny column labelled "Tries" indicating how many attempts the group took on the key before it was ultimately over (one way or another. This would also lead to a whole new set of stats on the number of tries that each of the key endings gets and how that iterates based on the class and specs that are in it. So mor data more ways of looking at the results you are getting in keys. The next thing I would think that you should add to the spreadsheet would be a fourth outcome, "kicked". So that if you get kicked from the key while attempts are being made that too can be tracked because it really is it's own different ending and not really a disband, completion or upgrade. This would also need to iterate on to the stats page with a whole new set of stats for keys that you were kicked from where you could look and say okay when I ran with a shaman healer it tend to get kicked less than when I run with and evoker healer etc. I think stuff like that could be really valuable for other questions that will start popping up in the stream like "Oh how many keys HAVE you gotten kicked from this season anyway?" and "Oh I see an Augvoker in this key I bet you get kicked from it, that's pretty much the norm now, right?" I know those aren't common question right NOW, but once the lack of depleting keys becomes a thing, I think there's a strong possibility that it might. As for the lack of people doing keys that they don't need because they simply don't HAVE to after their own key un-deplete-able I don't know, we might see a greater number of people moving down to sevens to farm crests and 10s to farm vault credit who have already timed 12s and 13s but we also might see less. Either way I THINK that the people doing some niche of the system will reduce. That being said too, I THINK that it's a baby step in a larger change that Blizzard is making to the keystone system that gets players used to the idea of not depleting before they introduce a system where, as you have so often advocated for, you use a currency to protect your key from depleting or depletions are taken out of the game entirely or however they choose to go. I think that with such an ingrained system as keystones they have to take little babysteps from season to season because that way they minimize the "culture shock" of the changes they WANT to make, AND they make it easier to not break the keystone system entirely when they put a change live that too few people have stress tested because so few people use the PTR for what it's meant to be used for and those that do quit far too easily when it's not a cake walk. Either way, just my knee jerk reaction.
Good thoughts! I hope it will turn out well.
I usually start of my week (after opening vault) doing my own key but if it drops by like 2-3 levels I am no longer interested. This change will 100% make me want to play my own key more.
glad to hear that! do you foresee yourself recycling groups a lot or will you do a full disband and restart every time?
@ honestly, I am not sure. It depends on the attitude of the players more than anything if they start flaming each other no point keeping the same team. I am quite eager to jump back into m+ as I stopped playing like a month ago and I’m ready to test these changes.
@@TheFinQ hope it goes well for you!
Doing our own keys on alts, the sign ups for keys under 7 are pretty mediocre if anyone signs up at all. Same for +11 keys (too high for vault farm, too low for score probably).
For +7-10 it's always a lot of sign ups, probably to farm crests, heroic gear and vault. Sometimes people leave after joning when they see that not everyone is 630+ ilvl but before starting the key which is fine. Often enough people just quit though after a single wipe and we're left with a bunch of +9 keys when farming vault for alts which is the point at which we would sign up to other groups instead.
We even had a shaman in our +10 mists group once who timed a +14 already who wanted to quit since he thought we wouldn't time the +10 after dying once in the maze which I found really odd but at least we got him so stay and had 5min left when finishing. It wasn't even that close or slow and I couldn't really understand why he would care about timing a +10 when he doesn't need it and think it's over when we are close to second boss with only 15 minutes off the clock.
@@musicxmp3533 ya stuff like that shaman is what scares me. A lot of people are just totally backwards in their thinking. I always say they are speed running a disband instead of an upgrade. They are there looking for the first opportunity to give up.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Yeah, I mean you deplete 100% of the keys you are leaving, if you stay there is often a very reasonable chance that it's still gonna work out. Even if not, it's still an opportunity to learn and a way of respecting the keyholder to at least finish it even if you might be 1 min over the timer in the end.
@ Yup well said. Should always respect the others in the group.
My overall reaction is to wait and see, mildly net positive expectation.
I have one fear for anti-meta specs to have worse problems getting groups. If there's going to be more groups available, are tanks/healers going to pick those groups with anti-meta class in them? Even now you have to be blessed to get those roles, and it sometimes can take a long time, talking 30m+. I was in a +13 siege group as healer+3dps for 30m few days ago, it happens even as healer. For many, there's no room for it to get worse. Hope it won't happen, but I do see it possible the game turns into more metaslavey than before.
@@Ougagagoubou ya sadly I think it's going to happen.
While you're more focused on the impact this will have in the 12+ key range, and the possible positives and negatives, there is a huge negative this could have in the +10 and below key range. Most heroic raiding guilds have people that can get 2.8k rating in the first week or two but have lots of members who really should be in the 2-8 range for several weeks learning the dungeons, what happens when those 2.8k players break off into the other members and run +10 no leaver keys for several days? Even if the 2-8 level players could only succeed 15% of the time in a +10, they will have inflated their IO and ilvl in just a few days. This should actually be good fun/more relaxed fun for my guild because not timing wont deplete the 8 or 10 key, can just hang with the boys and do some dungeons/get some loot but who knows what happens when they queue for a 10 key in pugs that *cough* they maybe aren't ready for.
@@jheyda the no deplete thing is only for 12 and higher.
@@heythereguysitsMetro oh, you may be right, I just re-read the blue post:
"Reward: Failing to clear a Mythic+ dungeon within the timer will no longer reduce the level of your Keystones below 12 for the season.
Keystone from the weekly vault will not decay below level 12 with this achievement.
Keystone can still be lowered below level 12 by speaking to Lindormi." I was thinking that because you could lower it by talking to the panda lady that they would also not decay below 12, but that may not be the case, the language is ambiguous.
@@jheyda it may be confusing but I can confirm it 100 percent is only for 12 and higher. The data mining has confirmed it.
I do my own key with my guild mates but when I pug into other people's keys I'm playing tank or healer.
@@Taedas123 and how do you think this will impact that?
@heythereguysitsMetro well if I have downgrade protection I'll feel more comfortable taking less experienced guildies. But I don't really see this happening at 12 and above.
My biggest fear is the "reset and go again" I'd rather finish and not time a key then reset and go again. I do want score but I also want to fill my vault. And I only have so much time. Resetting feels like a waste of time.
The stuff youre talking about in the first half of the video Alrdy happens 100% people say "he hasnt done a 13 yet in X so im not gunna invite him" Happens all the time so that will just be more of the same really. I do think people will rerun the same key after a failed one.. all be it they prolly remove the problem player in the group. i will deff be doing my key once i get the 12-14 achievement .. i feel like there will deff be a lot more keys listed b/c of that fail safe of it not going below X.. and its great for the higher key pushers too b/c no more homework keys too.
@@faxxie9964 I hope so!
Its not true that people who play for RIO dont do their key if they dont need it because when you time the key it becomes something you need. I am one of the people who play for score and I do my key regularly because otherwise I dont get invited much. The problem with the current system is the depleting of homework keys. If I have a 16 that I need and deplete in im like ok lets do the 15 and get the key up again but then I get lower rio people for the 15 because thats who needs the key and we deplete it to 14, then deplete the 14 as well with even worse people. So at this point Im stuck with a key that is 3 level below the one I need and if I want to push it back to 16 I have to commit a huge amount of time playing key I dont need. So my key becomes dead for the week and I have to apply but get invited once every 2 hours and at this point the game is a huge time waste with very low reward. Couple of weeks of the above happening and I dont have the desire to keep going and quit for the season. That is the experiance of many players so no depleting of homework keys is huge.
@@icswack6015 glad to hear that!
people will do same same key they already did for groups that say "forming push group/time and go next key" but I have hard time trusting those groups.. last time I joined a group that said "++ and go the next key" I performed my best and helped them ++ and at the end of the dungeon they just kicked me. they were asshole guild and its not everyone but still its such a risk to trust people I hate people
Ya that's my experience too. People just don't respect anyone anymore.
i refuse to pug anymore if my friends aren't on i wont run keys. especially tanking pugs is unbearable.
sorry to hear its come to that.
Currently not playing because game is shit. But always glad to see them make changes. Maybe m+ is gonna be good again next expac.
I love playing keys all day long, even if I don't get score from it. "Oh, let's equip another char? Sure!" The less I get punished for it, the better. But no one and their three mothers could ever force me to do my own key. As a dps I only get other dps to sign up, as a tank I don't need to because I can just latch onto someone elses ship.
@@Vis_Electra mythic plus is already good if you ask me! I hope these changes will make you want to give it another try, but obviously if you feel like it's that bad now it probably won't be changing that significantly enough to change that thought.
i hope it saves pugs daddy metro
@@roguecmp9870 k
Blizzard IMO has often placed their opinion higher in terms of priority than the players.
I could get into a very long conversation on why, and give really good examples. But, no one like paragraph comments.
Keys depleting is, toxic in its nature. It's completely unnecessary. Give players the power to do it themselves if they think it's too hard.
Why create an issue that doesn't need to exist.
@@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk ya I get you on that but it's the way the system has been designed and has been that way for a long long time. I don't agree that it's a good idea to keep it. But we know how bad they are at changing their core systems.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Haha, Blizzard is legendary for taking something that should be simple, and making it seem so difficult.
They already have a vendor to lower a key manually. I believe most of what they need is already there.
Have her at the end of every dungeon, if they want to drop it, they can.
They'd only have to stop the key from Auto dropping.
Their fix? make it so this only functions at 12+ was it? hah.
@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk ya but it's just that they believe keys going backwards is beneficial for their system. We disagree with them, but ultimately they have their reasons.
@@heythereguysitsMetro that's an unfortunate belief they have. And that belief leads to more people having sometimes over the top expectations due to the sole fear of the key lowering.
But yeah, at the end of the day Blizzard gonna do what Blizzard gonna do. lol.
I think eventually they will. I think letting 12@+ do it is just a precursor to the inevitable.
@@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk lets hope so! Only question is what caveat will it come with.
No
@@vikkimg5986 in regards to the title I guess?
@@heythereguysitsMetro Mythic + should be fun. Most of the time everyone is just annoyed. Mythics are simply outdated and need a complete overhaul. The best players should be rewarded more, because at the moment it doesn't matter whether you're at the top or at the bottom in DPS, everyone gets the same rewards. No. 1. The game needs a ladder for different classes, best DK tank or best holy priest etc. No. 2. Up to Mythic + 5 you need an auto group finder. No. 3. Get rid of key stones!! I just want to run my 2-3 favorite dungeons and have fun. No. 4. Renown system like they're going to introduce for raids!! Every Mythic run should be worthwhile. No. 5. Rank system like in PvP with rewards up to level 500+. (For killing monsters and completing dungeons you would get mythic "honor" etc. and you would recognize the mythic + bois immediately) These are just a couple of ideas. 😘
@@vikkimg5986 that's why I like wowopIO so much!
i rly dont know, but i thinki its a cool change for people pushing rank 1 in pug, for the rest dont change to much maybe for a social aspect i can bring my low friends in a key dat cant be deplete under dat level, i like remeber the boosting problem with this system
@@wrongman5495 ya who knows at the end of the day. I'm excited to see how it plays out.