I really enjoyed this. Attending the 2000 GOP convention was an enlightening experience. I was in awe at the complexity and vast differences within the party and found this video helpful in considering the experience in retrospect ...
yes. i like the image of the sun at dawn. Its equanimous light covers all things equally, slowly helping everything grow. This light is not a "passive" or "detached" equanimity, but a passionate one, not only FREED from, but also INVOLVED in all things equally.
yes, that is when we will see. well put. (i think we can get a preview, though, every night, when out subjective experience shuts down and dissolves in sleep. Where do we go?
The basic thrust here seems to be that pure ideology doesn't effectively serve situational action. Yet, at the same time, it seems the only way we can approach potential action is through an understanding of the various ideological perspectives and then supposing what the outcome would be, sort of choosing actions based on what would get us closer to an idea. Yet, without an ideology, an ideal doesn't exist. So....hmmm....
Perhaps it's more a matter that we're all susceptible to ego, regardless of first tier level. The more addictive egos tend to be the ones that pursue political office for (perceived) personal gain. The point is that self-actualized and transcended individuals should be the ones directing the movement of politics... not merely the first tier memes who vote like-minded people into office.
I watched the entire video, and I am commenting instead on the description on the top right. There is question of blame ("them" or "me"?). I am a bit surprised that there would be a question of blame on a Ken Wilber video page. In Zen, the "me" is questioned as in explored, not so much "who to blame." It is the "me" which says "they are to blame (not me)! WAAAH, Daddy!"
One of Wilber's criticisms of the multiculurists is that they aren't able to judge some cultures as better or worse. He's repeated this critique several times, and it's a good one. So it's surprisng that he wouldn't be willing to take moral positions.
"How, then, can we possibly develop and implement the policies that we so desperately need? This, as Ken mentions, would require something resembling "enlightened leadership," in which an elite body of policy makers, who embody the highest available altitude of human consciousness, are able to make the decisions which simply could not be made at lower levels of development."
@LooksAeterna from integral you respect WHERE people are at in their growth. It doesn't mean that you can't address them though...something they are doing may be causing misery. You get where they are at and it makes sense to you HOW they can see it that way. Still, even at integral, it seems to me that military force and other things may be called into to play...for example, to address red egotism (terrorism perhaps). Healthy 2nd tier should not be pathological...unhealhty versions maybe occur.
I believe is what we have to figure out next from our viewer position is do we immerse the two which is always clever or merge marriage is always and immerse and children are a cultural merge we are....
Thanks for the reply. I'm not interested in lasting 5 min. w/Wilber. Anything positive he can contribute is great but reread that quote from his website. Sounds like he wants a Politburo for the cognitive elite. Rocky:"But that trick never works!" Bullwinkle:"This time for sure!!"
I simply don't understand how post-modern green is more evolved than modern orange. Wilber just stated that Greens make friends with tribalist reds, and in another video mentioned that they care more about hurt feelings than freedom of speech. I understand that being able to take on multiple points of view is more evolved than only having one point of view, but what exactly is it about greens that compel them to feel bad for reds yet hate orange? Or to care more about someones feelings being hurt than freedom of speech?
Very intresting video and text info. I live in Canada, a representative democracy that tries to embrace multiculturalism and plualism. However, the governing paradigm (or center of gravity) is very confined and non-inclusive. In other words, it is a political correctness that is very restrictive. Canadians like to think of themselves as free, yet they are free to follow strictly enforced laws which claim to provide freedom (which often they do, if freedom is seen as a respect for human rights).
arguments for individual or collective rights, interior or exterior perspectives seem to overlap. To argue for the life of the fetus is to argue for all lives of the unborn. To argue for a woman's individual right for abortion is to argue for the collective of all women's rights. So when he says Republicans favor individual interior perspectives and Democrats favor exterior collective I don't think it is that black and white.
I like him...no one seems to understand the importance of all of the various perspectives...conservative and liberal perspectives both have merits. To avoid being wishy washy, we can find a way that the integral perspective actually applies.
i suppose it had something to do with the information that is processed into relived experience. but there could be many other fields this information gets put in. actually, i think it has to be sought elsewhere. so much more past information is accessible in various states that does not very likely come from your dna. or that would expand the role of dna dramatically. maybe it's stored in the stucture of time itself?
@LooksAeterna interesting take. to me, it is not likely that terrorists are at 2nd tier. they may speak that way, but it's red i think. i don't see how one can be at 2nd tier and look down on people...by definition, 2nd tier includes the lower levels within it and respects where they are at.
Sa serait bien de le traduire en plusieurs langues pour que beaucoup plus de personne puissent i avoir accès ce qui enrichira énormément la conscience collective sur ces sujet intégraux!!
(P) Progressive -> The reproductive instinct to see one's offspring consume regardless of abilities / consumption / short term. (C) Conservative -> The reproductive instinct for the tribe to benefit from concentrating consumption in accord with performance. / Saving / Long term. (L) Libertarian -> The reproductive instinct to increase experimentation, and reward successful experimentation. / Production / Medium Term.
This is interesting, especially 3rd way reasoning. You have to laugh when you hear about "political types" as opposed to "spiritual types". This country is devolving & unraveling economically. Ppl get political when it hits them personally. Peak oil is bad, what about peak industrial metals? Lithium batteries for cars? Great, how much lithium is there? Silver is a key industrial metal. How much silver is left? Not much. It's too late to get political when you're unemployed.
Wilber isn't per-per-perfect but I learned from this vid why I'm not conservative or liberal & why I'm not a follower of Wilber or anyone else. You sound like you're a knowledgeable guy but you wouldn't last 5 minutes with Wilber. That stuff about Gandhi & Aurobindo, J Krishnamurti said somewhat the same thing about Gandhi, very critical about behavior behind the scenes... but then again Mr K was not really someone who could talk, but i listened anyway.))
@LooksAeterna then, on the moral line you are not at integral. so, it's not integral that is necessarily path., but rather the person's development is lopsided. as an extreme example, Adi Da was mostly at unitive it seems to me, but his moral-sexual line was maybe red-assed as one can get. it's not a problem of unitive as a level of consciousness, but of a lopsided development...it seems to me. that's my take anyway.
Ken *is* a serious thinker. However, I'm not sure if the color thing will ever catch on. For one, it sounds a bit, well, just goofy. Two, people already have associations with politics and colors -- e.g., green (environment), blue (Democrat), red (Republican), red (commie), purple (contested state) etc.
What I mean is that, although you and I can disagree, at least we are looking at a complex array of facts and interpreting them, rightly or wrongly. I hope we can agree that the last thing political discourse needs is THIS ivory tower bullshit. I think Ken should go tell Putin "Vlad, you need to be more orange here. I mean, you're just clashing! And Mahmoud? You would look just fabulous in turquois!" I guarantee huge success with this approach.
It is also the "me" which says "it's all my fault. I am to blame. WAAAH, Mommy!" Current institutions of religion and government are not integral. However, so what? Reality is integral. Zenjis have never been much interested in institutions anyway. The internet is way more interesting to me than formal institutions.
I actually think that Christ did teach reincarnation (or at least, that it is in the book). If you read more about Wilber's political view, I think you will change your mind.
well no, it fits according to certain basic outlines, but you can easily argument for any person to be at least 4 or 5 of these "memes". i certainly agree that it's a very reductionist and arbitrary system, and it does not allow very well for a discussion of truly complex psychocultural issues, in my opinion that is...
Aside from the colors, my other concenrs are 1) that Ken will for the old "Why can't we just have a third party?" crew, who have no idea how the electoral college system works or the history of third parties (hint: they have had VERY little influence), and 2) Ken will naturally be surrounded by leftists, so he'll never get a fair or deep understanding of right of center -- libertarian and conservative -- movements. It's good to see Ken working on this stuff, however.
mickalene--yellow thinkers have entered second-tier consciousness...this means one is beginning to think horizontally and vertically, recognizing that all the waves of thought (mythic, scientific, pluralist, etc.) are essential to growth and development...less about warring between groups and levels and more about embracing and integrating them all.
Rather read William Irwin Thompson - though he doesn't blow his trumpet as much nor write things like "Greatest Living Philosopher" on his books as Wilber does. (Yes he himself writes such things!) Read my comments to this video..I am not a hater. I really really want to know truth.
I somewhat agree...and add: Traditional values and morals matter as much as more liberal values such as mental flexibility, acceptance, creativity, etc.
Exactly. He's weak on foreign policy, e.g., because it's all symbolic to him. Would he really believe that Europe opposes U.S. foreign policy because they are at the 'higher' color green? Might they have, e.g., opposed the war in Iraq because they were riding Saddam's money train? But all that messy real politik like oil-for-food scandal means nothing to people who live in a Teletubby type world of symbolism and high-flown ideas that have little to do with real lives, except to screw them up.
It's too complex to go into in 500 spaces. I won't argue Iraq but look up Christina Rosetti and the oil-for-food scandel before you give Europe a pass. Basically the Europeans have been given a free pass on defense spending for too long and have adopted nuanced appeasement as default. But it doesn't change my opinion that Wilber and his crowd don't seem to make any effort to get at this and instead choose to erect and live in a theoretical world based on emotional appeal rather than facts.
Claudia Rosett was the reporter who did most on the scandal. My mistake, it was awhile ago. I wont bother with the rest of your screed, I've heard it all before, blowback, they hate us bla bla. The whole thing was supposed to be about Wilber and I thought I was speaking with someone reasonable, but you just want to rant your little lefty rant. Good, go stew on the Daily Kos. I'm done.
What, reality? Stuff running out? How dare you interrupt our reverie with that?! Don't you know that Wilber never runs out of toilet paper? It emerges directly from his subconscious. Just like it would for all of us if we put him in charge. Now go put on the developmental color Ken picked out for you and leave us alone with this...reality!
This looks wonderful on the surface.However it seems that, for the most part, one has to live outside the United States to see that what is called politics in America is more akin to what Frank Zappa called it -"The entertainment wing of the Military Industrial Complex" than a system which represents the interests of the majority of Americans.William Irwin Thompson likens the soap opera that occurs every 4 years to elect a new president to the Olympic Games. Ken is asleep in theory.
"Enlightened leadership" no doubt means Wilber and his friends. Given his known antagonism to criticism the whole thing seems to add up to an authoritarian personality cult. Hell, he's even got a power meter (2% of pop. at yellow w/10% of the power, or something). Ironic that he turns out to be as narcissistic as his own characters in Boomeritis. But that's where he really comes from, so old habits die hard.
This is such a breath of fresh air.
Outrageous ! Thank you so much !!!! Has evolved just a bit since then but remarkable insight good for even today.
This thought should be taught in schools..
thanks!
I guess this was done at least four years ago, and it is still just as relevant now.
sclock2--good luck with your own journey of growth and development...hope you've brought lots of water
I really enjoyed this. Attending the 2000 GOP convention was an enlightening experience.
I was in awe at the complexity and vast differences within the party and found this video helpful in considering the experience in retrospect ...
very interesting still new to the integral thinking but it is very appealing
i agree. i think he's just making a point. as ram dass says "freedom means there is nowhere to stand, and there is nowhere not to stand."
hell yea on that last point. the internet teaches me as much if not more than school! the internet is integral.
We have to be careful with this integral thing, it's a must!
yes. i like the image of the sun at dawn. Its equanimous light covers all things equally, slowly helping everything grow. This light is not a "passive" or "detached" equanimity, but a passionate one, not only FREED from, but also INVOLVED in all things equally.
We’ll Take Quest From Here
QueensLadyDay Obviously didn't get through the 4th minute before freaking out...
yes, that is when we will see. well put. (i think we can get a preview, though, every night, when out subjective experience shuts down and dissolves in sleep. Where do we go?
The basic thrust here seems to be that pure ideology doesn't effectively serve situational action. Yet, at the same time, it seems the only way we can approach potential action is through an understanding of the various ideological perspectives and then supposing what the outcome would be, sort of choosing actions based on what would get us closer to an idea. Yet, without an ideology, an ideal doesn't exist. So....hmmm....
QueensLadyDay, what video are you even watching?
Perhaps it's more a matter that we're all susceptible to ego, regardless of first tier level. The more addictive egos tend to be the ones that pursue political office for (perceived) personal gain. The point is that self-actualized and transcended individuals should be the ones directing the movement of politics... not merely the first tier memes who vote like-minded people into office.
I watched the entire video, and I am commenting instead on the description on the top right. There is question of blame ("them" or "me"?). I am a bit surprised that there would be a question of blame on a Ken Wilber video page.
In Zen, the "me" is questioned as in explored, not so much "who to blame." It is the "me" which says "they are to blame (not me)! WAAAH, Daddy!"
One of Wilber's criticisms of the multiculurists is that they aren't able to judge some cultures as better or worse. He's repeated this critique several times, and it's a good one. So it's surprisng that he wouldn't be willing to take moral positions.
"How, then, can we possibly develop and implement the policies that we so desperately need? This, as Ken mentions, would require something resembling "enlightened leadership," in which an elite body of policy makers, who embody the highest available altitude of human consciousness, are able to make the decisions which simply could not be made at lower levels of development."
I understand Spiral Dynamics but I have no idea what you are trying to say...
People needs to try and vote more!
@LooksAeterna from integral you respect WHERE people are at in their growth. It doesn't mean that you can't address them though...something they are doing may be causing misery. You get where they are at and it makes sense to you HOW they can see it that way. Still, even at integral, it seems to me that military force and other things may be called into to play...for example, to address red egotism (terrorism perhaps). Healthy 2nd tier should not be pathological...unhealhty versions maybe occur.
I believe is what we have to figure out next from our viewer position is do we immerse the two which is always clever or merge marriage is always and immerse and children are a cultural merge we are....
Thanks for the reply. I'm not interested in lasting 5 min. w/Wilber. Anything positive he can contribute is great but reread that quote from his website. Sounds like he wants a Politburo for the cognitive elite. Rocky:"But that trick never works!" Bullwinkle:"This time for sure!!"
I simply don't understand how post-modern green is more evolved than modern orange. Wilber just stated that Greens make friends with tribalist reds, and in another video mentioned that they care more about hurt feelings than freedom of speech. I understand that being able to take on multiple points of view is more evolved than only having one point of view, but what exactly is it about greens that compel them to feel bad for reds yet hate orange? Or to care more about someones feelings being hurt than freedom of speech?
Very intresting video and text info. I live in Canada, a representative democracy that tries to embrace multiculturalism and plualism. However, the governing paradigm (or center of gravity) is very confined and non-inclusive. In other words, it is a political correctness that is very restrictive. Canadians like to think of themselves as free, yet they are free to follow strictly enforced laws which claim to provide freedom (which often they do, if freedom is seen as a respect for human rights).
arguments for individual or collective rights, interior or exterior perspectives seem to overlap. To argue for the life of the fetus is to argue for all lives of the unborn. To argue for a woman's individual right for abortion is to argue for the collective of all women's rights. So when he says Republicans favor individual interior perspectives and Democrats favor exterior collective I don't think it is that black and white.
I like him...no one seems to understand the importance of all of the various perspectives...conservative and liberal perspectives both have merits. To avoid being wishy washy, we can find a way that the integral perspective actually applies.
i suppose it had something to do with the information that is processed into relived experience. but there could be many other fields this information gets put in. actually, i think it has to be sought elsewhere. so much more past information is accessible in various states that does not very likely come from your dna. or that would expand the role of dna dramatically. maybe it's stored in the stucture of time itself?
Meanwhile, in 2020...
@LooksAeterna interesting take. to me, it is not likely that terrorists are at 2nd tier. they may speak that way, but it's red i think. i don't see how one can be at 2nd tier and look down on people...by definition, 2nd tier includes the lower levels within it and respects where they are at.
Sa serait bien de le traduire en plusieurs langues pour que beaucoup plus de personne puissent i avoir accès ce qui enrichira énormément la conscience collective sur ces sujet intégraux!!
I am big mind big heart
(P) Progressive -> The reproductive instinct to see one's offspring consume regardless of abilities / consumption / short term.
(C) Conservative -> The reproductive instinct for the tribe to benefit from concentrating consumption in accord with performance. / Saving / Long term.
(L) Libertarian -> The reproductive instinct to increase experimentation, and reward successful experimentation. / Production / Medium Term.
Holy fuck man you're everywhere I go
I mean it's a nice narrative but Liechtenstein and Singapore seem way more developed than democracies.
Be Okay
interesting - why is the US not the best example of a country already fitting this mold?
This is interesting, especially 3rd way reasoning. You have to laugh when you hear about "political types" as opposed to
"spiritual types". This country is
devolving & unraveling economically.
Ppl get political when it hits them personally. Peak oil is bad, what about
peak industrial metals? Lithium batteries
for cars? Great, how much lithium is there? Silver is a key industrial metal. How much silver is left? Not much. It's too late
to get political when you're unemployed.
Wilber isn't per-per-perfect but I learned
from this vid why I'm not conservative or
liberal & why I'm not a follower of Wilber
or anyone else. You sound like you're a
knowledgeable guy but you wouldn't last 5
minutes with Wilber. That stuff about
Gandhi & Aurobindo, J Krishnamurti said
somewhat the same thing about Gandhi,
very critical about behavior behind
the scenes... but then again Mr K was not really someone who could talk, but i
listened anyway.))
@LooksAeterna then, on the moral line you are not at integral. so, it's not integral that is necessarily path., but rather the person's development is lopsided. as an extreme example, Adi Da was mostly at unitive it seems to me, but his moral-sexual line was maybe red-assed as one can get. it's not a problem of unitive as a level of consciousness, but of a lopsided development...it seems to me. that's my take anyway.
Ken *is* a serious thinker. However, I'm not sure if the color thing will ever catch on. For one, it sounds a bit, well, just goofy. Two, people already have associations with politics and colors -- e.g., green (environment), blue (Democrat), red (Republican), red (commie), purple (contested state) etc.
What I mean is that, although you and I can disagree, at least we are looking at a complex array of facts and interpreting them, rightly or wrongly. I hope we can agree that the last thing political discourse needs is THIS ivory tower bullshit. I think Ken should go tell Putin "Vlad, you need to be more orange here. I mean, you're just clashing! And Mahmoud? You would look just fabulous in turquois!" I guarantee huge success with this approach.
we will see at the internal subjective experience of the shutdown of the nervous system at death, won't we?
It is also the "me" which says "it's all my fault. I am to blame. WAAAH, Mommy!"
Current institutions of religion and government are not integral. However, so what? Reality is integral. Zenjis have never been much interested in institutions anyway. The internet is way more interesting to me than formal institutions.
Evan is Awesome as Fuck!
I have NEVER heard ANYBODY say "Saddam Hussein is misunderstood". Wilber makes strawmen of everybody (but seemingly left-leaning activists the most).
I actually think that Christ did teach reincarnation (or at least, that it is in the book). If you read more about Wilber's political view, I think you will change your mind.
well no, it fits according to certain basic outlines, but you can easily argument for any person to be at least 4 or 5 of these "memes". i certainly agree that it's a very reductionist and arbitrary system, and it does not allow very well for a discussion of truly complex psychocultural issues, in my opinion that is...
Aside from the colors, my other concenrs are 1) that Ken will for the old "Why can't we just have a third party?" crew, who have no idea how the electoral college system works or the history of third parties (hint: they have had VERY little influence), and 2) Ken will naturally be surrounded by leftists, so he'll never get a fair or deep understanding of right of center -- libertarian and conservative -- movements. It's good to see Ken working on this stuff, however.
mickalene--yellow thinkers have entered second-tier consciousness...this means one is beginning to think horizontally and vertically, recognizing that all the waves of thought (mythic, scientific, pluralist, etc.) are essential to growth and development...less about warring between groups and levels and more about embracing and integrating them all.
@LooksAeterna I agree here...the lines. We can be very evolved in one line and an idiot in another. That would be path. 2nd tier I think. What a mess!
Everyone was pissed off because he won't commit to the supposedly spiritual side
Wow Ken Wilber has trouble practicing compassion with "1st tier." I gota take it easy on myself...
Rather read William Irwin Thompson - though he doesn't blow his trumpet as much nor write things like "Greatest Living Philosopher" on his books as Wilber does. (Yes he himself writes such things!) Read my comments to this video..I am not a hater. I really really want to know truth.
I somewhat agree...and add: Traditional values and morals matter as much as more liberal values such as mental flexibility, acceptance, creativity, etc.
Exactly. He's weak on foreign policy, e.g., because it's all symbolic to him. Would he really believe that Europe opposes U.S. foreign policy because they are at the 'higher' color green? Might they have, e.g., opposed the war in Iraq because they were riding Saddam's money train? But all that messy real politik like oil-for-food scandal means nothing to people who live in a Teletubby type world of symbolism and high-flown ideas that have little to do with real lives, except to screw them up.
Here
Bill Clintonmoved forward all right, right Monica Lewinsky's mouth.
It's too complex to go into in 500 spaces. I won't argue Iraq but look up Christina Rosetti and the oil-for-food scandel before you give Europe a pass. Basically the Europeans have been given a free pass on defense spending for too long and have adopted nuanced appeasement as default. But it doesn't change my opinion that Wilber and his crowd don't seem to make any effort to get at this and instead choose to erect and live in a theoretical world based on emotional appeal rather than facts.
Ken Wilbur, cool name! Please view searchword wilburjr-thanks.
Is that Donald Trump in the front row?
Nanotherapy-toilet paper from the unconscious.)
Monsters from the id...
They Can’t Play Armenian Military z secrets Its just you can’t do that optimistic choice
Claudia Rosett was the reporter who did most on the scandal. My mistake, it was awhile ago. I wont bother with the rest of your screed, I've heard it all before, blowback, they hate us bla bla. The whole thing was supposed to be about Wilber and I thought I was speaking with someone reasonable, but you just want to rant your little lefty rant. Good, go stew on the Daily Kos. I'm done.
What, reality? Stuff running out? How dare you interrupt our reverie with that?! Don't you know that Wilber never runs out of toilet paper? It emerges directly from his subconscious. Just like it would for all of us if we put him in charge. Now go put on the developmental color Ken picked out for you and leave us alone with this...reality!
are you trolling or what lol
This looks wonderful on the surface.However it seems that, for the most part, one has to live outside the United States to see that what is called politics in America is more akin to what Frank Zappa called it -"The entertainment wing of the Military Industrial Complex" than a system which represents the interests of the majority of Americans.William Irwin Thompson likens the soap opera that occurs every 4 years to elect a new president to the Olympic Games. Ken is asleep in theory.
these color schemes add nothing to one's understanding of politics. Just more boxes for shallow thinkers to hide behind.
black and white systems for black and white thinkers :>
let the geniuses enjoy their spectrums :D
L. Ron Gardner Wow. I would read his books first before you say that.
"Enlightened leadership" no doubt means Wilber and his friends. Given his known antagonism to criticism the whole thing seems to add up to an authoritarian personality cult. Hell, he's even got a power meter (2% of pop. at yellow w/10% of the power, or something). Ironic that he turns out to be as narcissistic as his own characters in Boomeritis. But that's where he really comes from, so old habits die hard.