What a great couple. Mrs. Cooper conveyed her thoughts and experiences very well. Covered lots of angles. I tend to agree neither men or women get to decide but that the scriptures make it clear. Appreciate you both.
Awesome!!! I was so impressed with this discussion. My aunt is a pastor in the church of the Nazarene and I am an LCMS layman so I think I have a lot of great conversation material. Being Lutheran rocks and explains so much! Btw, I think Rosa Young is a great example of a strong woman who was not a pastor and did not believe women could be pastors. She was the mother of the Lutheran faith in the south!
I’d consider myself to be a Soft Complimentarian and I think that’s where you both are. The only difference is I’m not sacramental, so women can offer communion, although at my church it’s self service.
God be praised for all our little old (and young) Lutheran ladies who keep our churches running smoothly. Altar guild, Sunday school teachers, pastors' secretaries (SO important), prayer groups... the list goes on. I enjoyed hearing Lisa's thoughts on this - so, when does she get her own podcast???
Women are to keep silent in Churches. That’s biblical! Any Lutheran who pushes this is a false prophet. Same with Abortion and Euthanasia and feminism.
I'm not a Roman Catholic, but maybe this is the time to bring in the 2,000 years of Church history card lol. I would not feel right if all of my theological views tended to align perfectly with modern social movements.
The question is to some degree ordination... to _what?_ The Church has always consecrated / (ordained, in the broad sense) women to various helping offices. Nuns, deaconesses, abbesses, etc. But the issue concerns the (Called and ORDAINED) Office of the Holy Ministry in the narrow sense -- aka the Priesthood; Holy Orders. The Office of Word and Sacrament. Can women be placed into the office of presbyter/bishop? That the church (and scripture) have determined as 'no'.
30 plus years of faithful service from retired pastor's wife playing organ and church secretary. Donna Lee just "retired" from the organ and choir directing, we threw her a party. Don't know how we'll ever replace Nancy. (edit:) I forgot to mention that both ladies have donated their talents and time to my church. 30 years of service and no paycheck. I'm pretty sure they have a big reward waiting for them where treasure doesn't rot or mold or thief thake.
I heard an interesting conversation on the Gottesblog with an LCMS Pastor who argued that the reason that pastors are men has to do with them as “acting in the stead of Christ” who was a male, and that connects to Adam (in other words, God’s incarnation as male is not arbitrary). I wonder if you have any thoughts on this angle Dr. Cooper? Thanks
Thank you both. As an AALC pastor in ministry with my Deaconess wife I would reaffirm the comments you've brought up. For those looking at the interplay of men and women in God's service, you mentioned Mary Magdalene and Anna and others, but also I think especially as I watch you two here and in your vocational service, "Priscilla and Aquila" are very much alive in the church. I would also commend folks to study in early church history, Macrina the Younger and the Cappadocian Fathers, and see how alive the church's ministry is when God weaves the work of His people, women and men in a remarkable tapestry. Those of us in a team ministry with different vocational focus do indeed find joy in walking with God as He works. I would add that message from us "Priscilla and Aquila" 's.
I also am a woman with a PhD in Old Testament but am not ordained nor do I want to be. I have struggled with women’s ordination but am coming to the belief that women’s gifts are best used elsewhere, at least for those churches with a strong sacramental practice. To me the determining factor is the Eucharist and consecration of the bread and wine. I think priests should be men.
You didn’t even talk about the texts! You referenced them! All jokes aside, this was a great talk. Especially grateful to hear what Lisa brought to this conversation.
Kinda glad you didn't get into the text..... Ha! There's a million videos on the text, and barely anything on a bigger picture scene setting talk. Which you guys nailed. Often the conversation around the text is the mess it is because those engaging with it lack a broader understanding of literary apporaches, hermenutics, denominational differences on ecclesiolgy etc. So well done and thanks guys. This is a valuable contribution to the "UA-cam" library of theological discussion.
The seminary for which I teach part time (at least for now), and has an evangelical background seems to view women’s ordination from a critical theory point of view at this point-that it is a matter of justice and equity. Their last statement said that one cannot even question the ordination of women. Lots of language of male privilege, patriarchy, etc. I wrote a letter of protest, since I cannot see that pastoral ministry is a “right,” no matter how one comes down on the question of ordination of women.
I am a member of the North American Lutheran Church and I feel called to pastoral ministry. I want to go the NALC route but the fact that they ordain women is something I struggle with. I am on the side that views the passages like the one in Timothy to be quite clear. I have no qualms about these passages whatsoever. However, I was posed with an interesting question by a Lutheran pastor where he said, "I agree that these passages speak clearly on the subject but I am not convinced that I am able to deny someone's calling." That has stuck with me, how can I deny a woman who feels a strong calling by God to the pastoral ministry? In addition, I have read that Martin Luther was in favor of women's ordination but only in "cases of an emergency". I would love to hear your thoughts on both of these things.
Thank you so much for this great, thoughtful, and biblical perspective. I really enjoyed listening to you both. Jordan almost lost me with his comment on the Star Wars prequels though. ;)
This conversation is actually why I'm not ELCA. I grew up LCMS, but attended an ELCA university (comparative lit major as well). The university pastor was a woman. So, I met with her once to understand the differences between the synods. And I said, "I know one major difference is women's ordination. Why does the ELCA permit it? Doesn't the Bible specifically forbid it?" She gave a historical-cultural defense. I asked, "I understand the logic here...but, we're adding to scripture at this point...what if your interpretation is wrong?" And she said, "then I'm in a lot of trouble." I've never been able to accept the thinking since. To have a pastor say, "well, I know what the Bible says BUT I don't like it, and this is the 21st century. So, we're gonna risk all of our theological standing on what I think the Bible should say," didn't sit right with me.
My wife is a retired ELCA pastor. She was the first woman ordained in ministry in Michigan and served productively for scores of years. I am conservative in all areas of belief except this. I have read the literature on both sides and have left the ELCA. Since my wife is retired the ordination of women is not an important issue for us. We cannot support the ELCA with its ultra progressive values any more. I have joined a more conservative Lutheran group and my wife attends with me but has not joined. Politics in most things in life tend to suck and this is one such area. I will always be for the ordination of women, but I feel stuck between two very unnecessary extremes. How can all of these groups possibly refer to themselves as Lutheran? I am a layman and this is confusing and reeks of petulance and control issues as much as theology on both sides. However, the slippery slope phenomenon in the ELCA cannot be denied. End rant!
Genuine question......could you share just a few places in scripture that teach that women can be pastors or elders of a church or have spiritual teaching authority over men? I haven't come across any places in scripture that teach or promote this view. But I'm open to changing my view if there are. Thanks.
@@Apologia5 Thanks for the question. I will refer you to a few resources on this complicated topic: fmcusa.org/a-biblical-case-for-women-in-ministry-leadership and www.christianitytoday.com/scot-mcknight/2020/august/biblical-case-for-women-leading-and-teaching.html
I would love to see a discussion of husbands and wives in the household. My girlfriend, whom I wish to marry soon, has been struggling with what submission means, and it isnt an issue that anyone really talks about without either taking an extreme (full blown basically-slavery submission, or comeplete egalitarian) or giving some non-answer that isn't satisfactory. So what does it mean for a wife to submit to her husband? How is this different from every Christian's duty to submit to one another? How does the following verse that commands husbands to love their wives relate to the conversation? What are practical ways this plays out in marriage? Thank you, and bless you Dr. Cooper, or if anyone else has suggested readings or podcasts that may be helpful. Thank you and bless you, too.
This is a great video. It actually made me realize if people aren't arguing from a belief that scripture is the inerrant word of God then it's two different arguments right off the back.
I have never been in a church, and I am 71 years old, and have been in the church since I was born, which did not rely on the gifts of women whether or not women could be ordained.
An ELCA approach is also probably it's own unique angle. If, like Forde, we assert that the Gospel is that which overthrows the power of the Law... we are already starting with a language type that is sympathetic to Marxist analysis. Then we define "The Law" as anything structural or oppressive (basic traditional morality of course, but also "patriarchal" authority, as Luther on the Fourth Commandment would teach us), and it becomes very obvious why a Gospel--Reductionism would _be_ the source of Radical Feminist theology in that churchbody.
Thank you for putting this together. Wonderful discussion. Love that we as Lutherans take Scripture seriously and seek the best way to adhere to it. Ah, you said that better too... 😊 Which Seminary did you get your degree, Mrs. Cooper? I have 2 from CSL.
Hi Dr Cooper, my church leadership is doing some resesrch into this topic right now to understand this better. Are there any written resources or position papers you have published that we can reference? Btw, love the discussion on the priesthood 😄
I like your channel and was excited for this video but the thesis here ultimately boils down to, "that's just the way it is". The questions that this video fails to address are 1. Which essential qualities make women unfit for ordination?, and 2. If a woman meets the essential qualities, why is she disqualified? I still gave this a thumbs up; I'm glad people are talking about it.
One of my friends who guided me in the faith said that there is a simple, 2-part test to tell whether a church's view on women in ministry is acceptable or not: If you see a church that has no women in leadership, condemn it and leave. Likewise if you see a church with a woman as a pastor, condemn it and leave. Healthy ministry ignores neither God's creation nor His commands.
I feel like many people talking about theology have these books in the background that look similiar and exotic, like, a bit old, but very sophisticated. But I couldn't find out so far what those books are. So, what are the books you have in your background there? I want to knowww xD
This was a long list of what other churches are doing, what other fem inists are doing and how that is not lutheran and a few bits and pieces about staying the old path. It is very light on what the couple personally believe and relevant scriptural passages, or theological musings. Honestly, it felt more like a date than a good theology discussion.
I'm not sure if you are saying this, but it sounds like you are saying God choosing to restrict the pastoral office to men (plus other restrictions) was an arbitrary choice on his part, and that He could have chosen differently. This sounds like nominalism. Could God have chosen to allow the ordination of women to the pastoral office if He wanted?
Scripture does seem to be clear on male priestly ordination only but let us not forget, women are awesome Queens, Prime Ministers, Presidents, CEO's so it's not about a woman's achievements. For me, it's more about the Eucharist since the Priest is Christ's representative (therefore male) who is standing there saying "This is my body"..... etc. For women who are called by God to Ministry it's just as rewarding to be a gifted and discerning Bible teacher to their fellow women and children - it's a different calling, not a lesser one.
Is there going to be a follow-up that gets into the scripture? I loved this discussion and would love to hear more. I'm a Swedenborgian, so I'm pretty ignorant of the Lutheran/Baptist theological context here, and I don't know the Epistles all that well, as our denomination doesn't use them as the basis of doctrine. But it's fascinating how the exact dynamics you're describing exist in our denomination too almost in the exact same way, despite the doctrinal text sources being different.
I love how you guys approach this. I sometimes wonder if somehow in the providence of God, there are some women who are called to lead certain churches, almost like a Deborah scenario. In context, she really wasn't supposed to be the one leading the charge. But in the end she was the one. I realize it doesn't address a lot of the other issues and she wasn't called to be a priest. I would suggest that one of the strengths of the Roman Catholic approach on this issue is the organizational continuity that has existed from the biginning. I freely admit the Catholic Church is far far far from perfect, and sometimes it introduces new problems into the mix. But on this issue, its just an issue that the church has been consistent on. Nevertheless, your approach seems to be not far from the Catholic approach.
I have a doubt actually...you said complementarianism is men and women are equal value but are different.Is it biologically or in any other way?...In some churches I have heard pastors saying complementarianism is men and women are equal value but husband is the head of the family.Do you follow that also?
@@thomasc9036 my father is a lutheran pastor and the first baptism he performed was on a premature child who did not make it. That one was an emergency one he did in the hospital
@@markschmidt5253 Regardless of denominations, one understanding of baptism that we all agree is the visible sign of entry into the communal life of believers. It does not actually regenerate a person. A family member may have requested a baptism for the baby and as a PASTOR, your father you may have agreed out of compassion for the family. It’s not really a baptism, but just a ritual to ease the family’s pain. He could have just assured the family that the baby is saved because of the faith of the family. He just chose the ritual method as a show of compassion. My point is that the church doctrines and dogma are built on clear passages of the bible for the continual health and growth of churches. Dr. Cooper's wife shouldn’t go around making up extreme abnormalities to violate clear doctrines. An example can be “after a shipwreck only 10 women survived in a marooned island. A woman stepped up and acted as a pastor for other 9 women. Because of this, from now on, women can be pastors”. While it is fine for a woman to act as a pastor in an extreme case like this, we don’t change doctrines around to fit these extreme made up instances.
@@thomasc9036 you're going to have to watch jordan b cooper's videos on baptism since he covers it better than I can. And frankly, its insulting for you to say that that wasnt a baptism. But pr. Cooper's wife isnt claiming anything close to what you're saying. And the clear verses of scripture are what us lutherans point to first, whether that's baptismal regeneration or women not being pastors. Did you watch the video you're commenting on?
I liked this talk because I think the biggest problem is that we need the renewing of the mind in the area of man and woman. It's gotten so far from what it was ment to be that God's plan is unrecognizable for men and woman. I feel like there needs to be a class that goes all the way back to Adam and Eve and honestly just a renewal of mind that only God can do. That is how I have the peace I have now with these gender roles and Pastor roll stuff. And it was touched on in this video but the world sees the pastor as the head and the leader and the best but really how does God see this role. Everyone who wants to be first, needs to be last. And all the Apostles and pastors ECT all had extremely hard lives. They were full of grace and a big measure of faith but in the world they suffer and also are held to an extremely high accountability. The role women play is a suffering role as well. But when we suffer we are held at the highest grace, faith ...everything with the least amount of accountability ( which is not to say a pass to sin) what I'm trying to say is women, in the Bible are treated better with more higher roles( in God's views not the worldly views). And that's what is most confusing in so many ways the way the world sees things I'd exactly the opposite of how God looks at them and we need to pray for God to continue to renew our minds and heal them and change them to fit back into God's design. This is a life long process because we will never be complete until He comes back. That is why loving each other is the second most important thing we could ever do and also love is what God says it is not what we think it is. If I ever read the Bible and don't hear it as love, I pray and ask God to let me understand how He means this and He always answers this prayer. There is a difference of reading the Bible and understanding it's revelation. I pray that we all live in faith and put Jesus first and I pray that people who are asking these questions will pray for the renewal of thier mind. You guys really talked about some great things that are NEVER talked about. Love this. Thank you!
It’s all political today and feminism which is not the word. Women are to keep silent in the Churches meaning exactly what It says. No women ordination. Find me one female pastor Jesus ordained or any Disciple or St Paul. You can’t.
No, woman should not be in headship ministry positions. It becomes the downfall of many a denomination. Then the other liberal, far left things come in like homosexual marriages and ordinations. Women have always served in ministries and always should, but not as priests, pastors, or bishops.
I think it is obvious that we are all priests. So ordination is something we do for the best of the actual community and people in it. I think depending on where the community is, one can come to different conclusions on such matters, based on the context one finds oneself in. One will often come to wrong conclusions of course. The most important guide is to be careful with that which might cause a brother to stumble. Historically men needs to receive such positions because without it they don't tend to be involved, or care for community and go and do their own thing, while women are doing the best they can with what they are then left with. Has that context changed? I don't know. But if it has, it would then be important to re-evaluate things, and start a conversation. Just harping on what was correct in the past won't actually work. That is what actually causes division, because people grow apart while pretending to be united, then after a while, boom, 90% of people have become communists or fascists, or what ever other ideological possession might take people over. People harping on tradition just never take the blame for the actual real world fallout, they just keep harping, judging those who's counciousness has shifted, because of their very harping. Our very ways of perceiving and relating have changed massively, all over the world, the last few centuries. For both good and bad. Going back never works. One can only take it inspiration from the past, one can't repeat it, with now changed people. But it is still different in different places, so we will come to different conclusions, so it's very hard work, remaining in a spirit of understanding those who are in a totally different place. The most important is to trust that as long as it is done in love of God, which is the same as love of neighbour, in a spirit of coming together, one is doing what one has to do. A lot of what the Holy Spirit does, we don't understand. Sometimes mistakes are what is needed. Ascent is often perceived as decent, but it is the very thing needed to grow.
@@Cuyt24no because he says explicitly hateful things. He has literally said God hates gays and other things that are absolutely disgusting and evil. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
God's ways are not man's ways. God gave the order of gender roles. If you are going to bend the knee and ignore scripture on this topic you have no reason to ignore other instructions as well.
re: church history, or, human history...would you not agree that women were completely cut off from all sorts of societal roles for the 2000 years since Christ? And, did we in the West not begin to correct this ridiculous misogyny in around 1900...when women could finally attend college, gain the vote, work independently of men, not necessarily get married, become Rosie the Riveter, etc, etc, etc? To use the Historical crutch is to build an argument already flawed by the worst bigotry ever promulgated on 1/2 the human population of the Earth.
Whether God inspired or not.....men who lived in a very sexist time and were themselves incredibly sexist (think Muslims today) wrote these passages and wrote at a time when things were very different from the modern West.
@@roypanwitz9166 ((Panwitz))? Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. The word firmament means vast solid dome in hebrew extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament expanse (flat as base, support) firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above The following is a quote by Martin Luther himself There is talk of a new astrologer [Nicolaus Copernicus] who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must . . . invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth red
@@roypanwitz9166 I can produce Dozens of verses that evidence the earth doesn't move and the sun moon and stars go around the earth and other verses that teach there's a solid DOME OVER THE EARTH Outer space is biblically and thermodynamically an impossibility as well as verses that say the earth has pillars is there a single verse that you can produce that evidence is that the earth moves and or curves in any way shape or form?
@@revelation12sign85 you could try taking a ride in a plane. That might work. Special revelation, yes. General revelation, also yes. Reading the Bible as a science textbook is so, so reductive. Don't make materialist science god. Make God god, and you will find much deeper knowledge and understanding in reading the Bible.
Sola Scriptura vs Orthodox tradition. Sola scriptura gives you mess on this topic. Orthodox tradition gives you a concrete answer. Luther got wrong he should have humbly sought out the orthodox church but unfortunately he was arrogant and thought he knew better just the so-called teachers in this video. Both of them might come to the same conclusion as the Orthodox church but the way in which they come to it is really incorrect.
Actually he did seek out the orthodox church but it was too difficult to keep up a correspondence because of the long distance and the time that it would take for letters to be sent back and forth. Also, saying that Luther was arrogant is a bit harsh since Luther never wanted to leave the catholic church but was excommunicated againsts his will and he never wanted to create his own church, I am sure that he would be quite saddened if he was resurrected today and saw a whole church movement named after him. Luther was simply a man that saw much corruption within the catholic church and wanted the common people to hear to word of God without it being altered by corrupt church officials and used to their own benefit such as the case with indulgence letters
Lmao well that’s circular. “Our tradition conforms to your opinion, therefore our tradition is correct and the way you come to your opinions is wrong.”
@@dugood70 The problem is it's not one schmuck of a man's opinion like luther, it's the consensus of the church led by ecumenical councils like the 1st one in Acts, a tradition which the bishops carried on as THEY had been given that AUTHORITY, an authority that a schmuck like Luther DID NOT HAVE!!! And anyone who doesn't conform to that church authority invested by God is being rebellious and stiff necked just like the jews of old.
Orthobros: Defending the opinions of sweaty, malnourished hippies in caves (sorry, I mistyped "monks") over the clear Word of God since the 7th Ecumenical Council.
What a great couple. Mrs. Cooper conveyed her thoughts and experiences very well. Covered lots of angles. I tend to agree neither men or women get to decide but that the scriptures make it clear. Appreciate you both.
Awesome!!! I was so impressed with this discussion. My aunt is a pastor in the church of the Nazarene and I am an LCMS layman so I think I have a lot of great conversation material. Being Lutheran rocks and explains so much! Btw, I think Rosa Young is a great example of a strong woman who was not a pastor and did not believe women could be pastors. She was the mother of the Lutheran faith in the south!
I’d consider myself to be a Soft Complimentarian and I think that’s where you both are. The only difference is I’m not sacramental, so women can offer communion, although at my church it’s self service.
God be praised for all our little old (and young) Lutheran ladies who keep our churches running smoothly. Altar guild, Sunday school teachers, pastors' secretaries (SO important), prayer groups... the list goes on. I enjoyed hearing Lisa's thoughts on this - so, when does she get her own podcast???
Women are to keep silent in Churches. That’s biblical! Any Lutheran who pushes this is a false prophet. Same with Abortion and Euthanasia and feminism.
I'm not a Roman Catholic, but maybe this is the time to bring in the 2,000 years of Church history card lol. I would not feel right if all of my theological views tended to align perfectly with modern social movements.
How dare you use common sense? Common sense is a social construct
Mainstream evangelical views do align perfectly with modern social movements.
Eh...one plus doesn't make up for all the minuses on this one.
@@garrusn7702 That's silly, mainstream evangelicals reject abortion and homosexuality.
The question is to some degree ordination... to _what?_ The Church has always consecrated / (ordained, in the broad sense) women to various helping offices. Nuns, deaconesses, abbesses, etc.
But the issue concerns the (Called and ORDAINED) Office of the Holy Ministry in the narrow sense -- aka the Priesthood; Holy Orders. The Office of Word and Sacrament.
Can women be placed into the office of presbyter/bishop? That the church (and scripture) have determined as 'no'.
30 plus years of faithful service from retired pastor's wife playing organ and church secretary. Donna Lee just "retired" from the organ and choir directing, we threw her a party. Don't know how we'll ever replace Nancy.
(edit:) I forgot to mention that both ladies have donated their talents and time to my church.
30 years of service and no paycheck. I'm pretty sure they have a big reward waiting for them where treasure doesn't rot or mold or thief thake.
Really enjoyed hearing Lisa's perspectives and thoughts on this. I am part of an ELCA congregation and struggle with female pastors. VERY HELPFUL!
I heard an interesting conversation on the Gottesblog with an LCMS Pastor who argued that the reason that pastors are men has to do with them as “acting in the stead of Christ” who was a male, and that connects to Adam (in other words, God’s incarnation as male is not arbitrary). I wonder if you have any thoughts on this angle Dr. Cooper? Thanks
Yes! This is a key element to the discussion.
Thank you both. As an AALC pastor in ministry with my Deaconess wife I would reaffirm the comments you've brought up. For those looking at the interplay of men and women in God's service, you mentioned Mary Magdalene and Anna and others, but also I think especially as I watch you two here and in your vocational service, "Priscilla and Aquila" are very much alive in the church. I would also commend folks to study in early church history, Macrina the Younger and the Cappadocian Fathers, and see how alive the church's ministry is when God weaves the work of His people, women and men in a remarkable tapestry. Those of us in a team ministry with different vocational focus do indeed find joy in walking with God as He works. I would add that message from us "Priscilla and Aquila" 's.
I also am a woman with a PhD in Old Testament but am not ordained nor do I want to be. I have struggled with women’s ordination but am coming to the belief that women’s gifts are best used elsewhere, at least for those churches with a strong sacramental practice. To me the determining factor is the Eucharist and consecration of the bread and wine. I think priests should be men.
@@mpkropf5062 body of church is the church! Not a male body. Please reference use of that phase in scripture as Apostle Paul uses Body of Christ.
You didn’t even talk about the texts! You referenced them!
All jokes aside, this was a great talk. Especially grateful to hear what Lisa brought to this conversation.
Kinda glad you didn't get into the text..... Ha! There's a million videos on the text, and barely anything on a bigger picture scene setting talk. Which you guys nailed. Often the conversation around the text is the mess it is because those engaging with it lack a broader understanding of literary apporaches, hermenutics, denominational differences on ecclesiolgy etc. So well done and thanks guys. This is a valuable contribution to the "UA-cam" library of theological discussion.
The seminary for which I teach part time (at least for now), and has an evangelical background seems to view women’s ordination from a critical theory point of view at this point-that it is a matter of justice and equity. Their last statement said that one cannot even question the ordination of women. Lots of language of male privilege, patriarchy, etc. I wrote a letter of protest, since I cannot see that pastoral ministry is a “right,” no matter how one comes down on the question of ordination of women.
Yeah, and it doesn't really help your protest seeing that God's pronouns are "Father" and "He." There's that.
I am a member of the North American Lutheran Church and I feel called to pastoral ministry. I want to go the NALC route but the fact that they ordain women is something I struggle with. I am on the side that views the passages like the one in Timothy to be quite clear. I have no qualms about these passages whatsoever. However, I was posed with an interesting question by a Lutheran pastor where he said, "I agree that these passages speak clearly on the subject but I am not convinced that I am able to deny someone's calling." That has stuck with me, how can I deny a woman who feels a strong calling by God to the pastoral ministry? In addition, I have read that Martin Luther was in favor of women's ordination but only in "cases of an emergency". I would love to hear your thoughts on both of these things.
Thank you so much for this great, thoughtful, and biblical perspective. I really enjoyed listening to you both. Jordan almost lost me with his comment on the Star Wars prequels though. ;)
Best wishes to both of you and your family.
This conversation is actually why I'm not ELCA. I grew up LCMS, but attended an ELCA university (comparative lit major as well). The university pastor was a woman. So, I met with her once to understand the differences between the synods. And I said, "I know one major difference is women's ordination. Why does the ELCA permit it? Doesn't the Bible specifically forbid it?"
She gave a historical-cultural defense. I asked, "I understand the logic here...but, we're adding to scripture at this point...what if your interpretation is wrong?" And she said, "then I'm in a lot of trouble."
I've never been able to accept the thinking since. To have a pastor say, "well, I know what the Bible says BUT I don't like it, and this is the 21st century. So, we're gonna risk all of our theological standing on what I think the Bible should say," didn't sit right with me.
All those who try and justify themselves about women pastors know deep down that it’s against scripture! I pray they repent before their end.
I am curious what Lisa's position is on veiling during church services.
This is great!
Loved this discussion. Learned a lot.
My wife is a retired ELCA pastor. She was the first woman ordained in ministry in Michigan and served productively for scores of years. I am conservative in all areas of belief except this. I have read the literature on both sides and have left the ELCA. Since my wife is retired the ordination of women is not an important issue for us. We cannot support the ELCA with its ultra progressive values any more. I have joined a more conservative Lutheran group and my wife attends with me but has not joined. Politics in most things in life tend to suck and this is one such area. I will always be for the ordination of women, but I feel stuck between two very unnecessary extremes. How can all of these groups possibly refer to themselves as Lutheran? I am a layman and this is confusing and reeks of petulance and
control issues as much as theology on both sides. However, the slippery slope phenomenon in the ELCA cannot be denied. End rant!
I hope you found the conversation respectful, even though you may disagree.
@@DrJordanBCooper absolutely. I’m actually still listening now.
Donald, that is my dilemma. I don't like the progressive groups, but I also find myself agreeing with women's ordination.
Genuine question......could you share just a few places in scripture that teach that women can be pastors or elders of a church or have spiritual teaching authority over men? I haven't come across any places in scripture that teach or promote this view. But I'm open to changing my view if there are. Thanks.
@@Apologia5 Thanks for the question. I will refer you to a few resources on this complicated topic: fmcusa.org/a-biblical-case-for-women-in-ministry-leadership
and www.christianitytoday.com/scot-mcknight/2020/august/biblical-case-for-women-leading-and-teaching.html
I would love to see a discussion of husbands and wives in the household. My girlfriend, whom I wish to marry soon, has been struggling with what submission means, and it isnt an issue that anyone really talks about without either taking an extreme (full blown basically-slavery submission, or comeplete egalitarian) or giving some non-answer that isn't satisfactory.
So what does it mean for a wife to submit to her husband? How is this different from every Christian's duty to submit to one another? How does the following verse that commands husbands to love their wives relate to the conversation? What are practical ways this plays out in marriage?
Thank you, and bless you Dr. Cooper, or if anyone else has suggested readings or podcasts that may be helpful. Thank you and bless you, too.
This is a great video. It actually made me realize if people aren't arguing from a belief that scripture is the inerrant word of God then it's two different arguments right off the back.
I have never been in a church, and I am 71 years old, and have been in the church since I was born, which did not rely on the gifts of women whether or not women could be ordained.
An ELCA approach is also probably it's own unique angle.
If, like Forde, we assert that the Gospel is that which overthrows the power of the Law... we are already starting with a language type that is sympathetic to Marxist analysis. Then we define "The Law" as anything structural or oppressive (basic traditional morality of course, but also "patriarchal" authority, as Luther on the Fourth Commandment would teach us), and it becomes very obvious why a Gospel--Reductionism would _be_ the source of Radical Feminist theology in that churchbody.
Now i want to read a theological defense of the SW prequels.
I-III FTW
Thank you for putting this together. Wonderful discussion. Love that we as Lutherans take Scripture seriously and seek the best way to adhere to it. Ah, you said that better too... 😊 Which Seminary did you get your degree, Mrs. Cooper? I have 2 from CSL.
Hi Dr Cooper, my church leadership is doing some resesrch into this topic right now to understand this better. Are there any written resources or position papers you have published that we can reference?
Btw, love the discussion on the priesthood 😄
Very enlightening discussion on both your parts! Thank you.
Best duo online. Love y'all!
I like your channel and was excited for this video but the thesis here ultimately boils down to, "that's just the way it is". The questions that this video fails to address are 1. Which essential qualities make women unfit for ordination?, and 2. If a woman meets the essential qualities, why is she disqualified? I still gave this a thumbs up; I'm glad people are talking about it.
One of my friends who guided me in the faith said that there is a simple, 2-part test to tell whether a church's view on women in ministry is acceptable or not: If you see a church that has no women in leadership, condemn it and leave. Likewise if you see a church with a woman as a pastor, condemn it and leave. Healthy ministry ignores neither God's creation nor His commands.
26:20 Now I want a video about why you love the Star Wars prequels
I feel like many people talking about theology have these books in the background that look similiar and exotic, like, a bit old, but very sophisticated. But I couldn't find out so far what those books are. So, what are the books you have in your background there?
I want to knowww xD
do you have a link to the full version of your intro song?
This was a long list of what other churches are doing, what other fem inists are doing and how that is not lutheran and a few bits and pieces about staying the old path.
It is very light on what the couple personally believe and relevant scriptural passages, or theological musings.
Honestly, it felt more like a date than a good theology discussion.
A very interesting talk. Thank you both.
I'm not sure if you are saying this, but it sounds like you are saying God choosing to restrict the pastoral office to men (plus other restrictions) was an arbitrary choice on his part, and that He could have chosen differently. This sounds like nominalism. Could God have chosen to allow the ordination of women to the pastoral office if He wanted?
Scripture does seem to be clear on male priestly ordination only but let us not forget, women are awesome Queens, Prime Ministers, Presidents, CEO's so it's not about a woman's achievements. For me, it's more about the Eucharist since the Priest is Christ's representative (therefore male) who is standing there saying "This is my body"..... etc. For women who are called by God to Ministry it's just as rewarding to be a gifted and discerning Bible teacher to their fellow women and children - it's a different calling, not a lesser one.
You didn't discuss the text! :-)
Is there going to be a follow-up that gets into the scripture? I loved this discussion and would love to hear more. I'm a Swedenborgian, so I'm pretty ignorant of the Lutheran/Baptist theological context here, and I don't know the Epistles all that well, as our denomination doesn't use them as the basis of doctrine. But it's fascinating how the exact dynamics you're describing exist in our denomination too almost in the exact same way, despite the doctrinal text sources being different.
This couple really is big-brain energy.
“God’s law is good guys”
I love this!
yeah the feminist fascination with the gnostic gospels is both creepy and kind of incomprehensible
I love how you guys approach this. I sometimes wonder if somehow in the providence of God, there are some women who are called to lead certain churches, almost like a Deborah scenario. In context, she really wasn't supposed to be the one leading the charge. But in the end she was the one.
I realize it doesn't address a lot of the other issues and she wasn't called to be a priest. I would suggest that one of the strengths of the Roman Catholic approach on this issue is the organizational continuity that has existed from the biginning.
I freely admit the Catholic Church is far far far from perfect, and sometimes it introduces new problems into the mix. But on this issue, its just an issue that the church has been consistent on.
Nevertheless, your approach seems to be not far from the Catholic approach.
I have a doubt actually...you said complementarianism is men and women are equal value but are different.Is it biologically or in any other way?...In some churches I have heard pastors saying complementarianism is men and women are equal value but husband is the head of the family.Do you follow that also?
32:19 is where they really get into it folks
In an emergency situation, a woman can do baptism? What's an emergency baptism in the first place?
Yes. All lay Christians can perform emergency baptisms.
@@dp34576 How can there be an emergency baptism among Protestants or even RCs? Name an instance where you will perform an "emergency" baptism.
@@thomasc9036 my father is a lutheran pastor and the first baptism he performed was on a premature child who did not make it. That one was an emergency one he did in the hospital
@@markschmidt5253 Regardless of denominations, one understanding of baptism that we all agree is the visible sign of entry into the communal life of believers. It does not actually regenerate a person. A family member may have requested a baptism for the baby and as a PASTOR, your father you may have agreed out of compassion for the family. It’s not really a baptism, but just a ritual to ease the family’s pain. He could have just assured the family that the baby is saved because of the faith of the family. He just chose the ritual method as a show of compassion.
My point is that the church doctrines and dogma are built on clear passages of the bible for the continual health and growth of churches. Dr. Cooper's wife shouldn’t go around making up extreme abnormalities to violate clear doctrines. An example can be “after a shipwreck only 10 women survived in a marooned island. A woman stepped up and acted as a pastor for other 9 women. Because of this, from now on, women can be pastors”. While it is fine for a woman to act as a pastor in an extreme case like this, we don’t change doctrines around to fit these extreme made up instances.
@@thomasc9036 you're going to have to watch jordan b cooper's videos on baptism since he covers it better than I can. And frankly, its insulting for you to say that that wasnt a baptism.
But pr. Cooper's wife isnt claiming anything close to what you're saying. And the clear verses of scripture are what us lutherans point to first, whether that's baptismal regeneration or women not being pastors. Did you watch the video you're commenting on?
I liked this talk because I think the biggest problem is that we need the renewing of the mind in the area of man and woman. It's gotten so far from what it was ment to be that God's plan is unrecognizable for men and woman. I feel like there needs to be a class that goes all the way back to Adam and Eve and honestly just a renewal of mind that only God can do. That is how I have the peace I have now with these gender roles and Pastor roll stuff. And it was touched on in this video but the world sees the pastor as the head and the leader and the best but really how does God see this role. Everyone who wants to be first, needs to be last. And all the Apostles and pastors ECT all had extremely hard lives. They were full of grace and a big measure of faith but in the world they suffer and also are held to an extremely high accountability. The role women play is a suffering role as well. But when we suffer we are held at the highest grace, faith ...everything with the least amount of accountability ( which is not to say a pass to sin) what I'm trying to say is women, in the Bible are treated better with more higher roles( in God's views not the worldly views). And that's what is most confusing in so many ways the way the world sees things I'd exactly the opposite of how God looks at them and we need to pray for God to continue to renew our minds and heal them and change them to fit back into God's design. This is a life long process because we will never be complete until He comes back. That is why loving each other is the second most important thing we could ever do and also love is what God says it is not what we think it is. If I ever read the Bible and don't hear it as love, I pray and ask God to let me understand how He means this and He always answers this prayer. There is a difference of reading the Bible and understanding it's revelation. I pray that we all live in faith and put Jesus first and I pray that people who are asking these questions will pray for the renewal of thier mind. You guys really talked about some great things that are NEVER talked about. Love this. Thank you!
You make a lovely couple.
YOU DIDN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT THE TEXT! YOU REFERENCED THEM!
ha ha :)
It’s all political today and feminism which is not the word. Women are to keep silent in the Churches meaning exactly what It says. No women ordination. Find me one female pastor Jesus ordained or any Disciple or St Paul. You can’t.
Junia?
@@garrusn7702 NO.
@@edwardluth7740 No what?
@@garrusn7702 know that the Lord said NO! No ordained women and be silent. What part of No do you not understand?
The only reason this is even a issue is because of the current culture. And culture cannot change God’s Word.
The word mansplaining is a feminist buzzword. When I hear it I feign ignorance....manswhat?
No, woman should not be in headship ministry positions. It becomes the downfall of many a denomination. Then the other liberal, far left things come in like homosexual marriages and ordinations. Women have always served in ministries and always should, but not as priests, pastors, or bishops.
I think it is obvious that we are all priests. So ordination is something we do for the best of the actual community and people in it. I think depending on where the community is, one can come to different conclusions on such matters, based on the context one finds oneself in. One will often come to wrong conclusions of course. The most important guide is to be careful with that which might cause a brother to stumble. Historically men needs to receive such positions because without it they don't tend to be involved, or care for community and go and do their own thing, while women are doing the best they can with what they are then left with. Has that context changed? I don't know. But if it has, it would then be important to re-evaluate things, and start a conversation. Just harping on what was correct in the past won't actually work. That is what actually causes division, because people grow apart while pretending to be united, then after a while, boom, 90% of people have become communists or fascists, or what ever other ideological possession might take people over. People harping on tradition just never take the blame for the actual real world fallout, they just keep harping, judging those who's counciousness has shifted, because of their very harping. Our very ways of perceiving and relating have changed massively, all over the world, the last few centuries. For both good and bad. Going back never works. One can only take it inspiration from the past, one can't repeat it, with now changed people. But it is still different in different places, so we will come to different conclusions, so it's very hard work, remaining in a spirit of understanding those who are in a totally different place. The most important is to trust that as long as it is done in love of God, which is the same as love of neighbour, in a spirit of coming together, one is doing what one has to do. A lot of what the Holy Spirit does, we don't understand. Sometimes mistakes are what is needed. Ascent is often perceived as decent, but it is the very thing needed to grow.
Pastor Steven Anderson
He is so awful.
@@breannawilliamson9787 Because he doesn't push a woke feminist LGBTQ friendly version of the bible?
@@Cuyt24 ummm nope. Because he’s hateful and perverts The Gospel.
@@Cuyt24no because he says explicitly hateful things. He has literally said God hates gays and other things that are absolutely disgusting and evil. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
A woman's perspective, a man's perspective...how about just God's perspective, which is already written ?
God's ways are not man's ways. God gave the order of gender roles. If you are going to bend the knee and ignore scripture on this topic you have no reason to ignore other instructions as well.
Harumph....Star Trek, Original crew! Not star wars....😎
First step to same sex marriage.
re: church history, or, human history...would you not agree that women were completely cut off from all sorts of societal roles for the 2000 years since Christ? And, did we in the West not begin to correct this ridiculous misogyny in around 1900...when women could finally attend college, gain the vote, work independently of men, not necessarily get married, become Rosie the Riveter, etc, etc, etc? To use the Historical crutch is to build an argument already flawed by the worst bigotry ever promulgated on 1/2 the human population of the Earth.
The Prequels ARE the best. Star Wars is best when it is addressing the normal bureaucratic functions of a galactic government that large.
YOu guys are really stumbling through your justification.....and are not that convincing......
Whether God inspired or not.....men who lived in a very sexist time and were themselves incredibly sexist (think Muslims today) wrote these passages and wrote at a time when things were very different from the modern West.
Paul aside....I am not certain the Great God even cares about this question!
To be honest this video was a waste of time.😮💨
Thank you for your thoughtful constructive comment.
@@DrJordanBCooper You're welcome. 😉
@@DrJordanBCooper and your book on liturgical worship has been great and I have been trying to promote it in my district.
The earth is flat and it is written on page one of Gods word
No, it is not.
@@roypanwitz9166
((Panwitz))?
Genesis 1:6
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
The word firmament means vast solid dome in hebrew
extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
expanse (flat as base, support)
firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above
The following is a quote by Martin Luther himself
There is talk of a new astrologer [Nicolaus Copernicus] who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must . . . invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth red
@@roypanwitz9166 I can produce
Dozens of verses that evidence the earth doesn't move and the sun moon and stars go around the earth and other verses that teach there's a solid DOME OVER THE EARTH
Outer space is biblically and thermodynamically an impossibility
as well as verses that say the earth has pillars
is there a single verse that you can produce that evidence is that the earth moves and or curves in any way shape or form?
@@revelation12sign85 you could try taking a ride in a plane. That might work.
Special revelation, yes.
General revelation, also yes.
Reading the Bible as a science textbook is so, so reductive. Don't make materialist science god. Make God god, and you will find much deeper knowledge and understanding in reading the Bible.
Sola Scriptura vs Orthodox tradition. Sola scriptura gives you mess on this topic. Orthodox tradition gives you a concrete answer. Luther got wrong he should have humbly sought out the orthodox church but unfortunately he was arrogant and thought he knew better just the so-called teachers in this video. Both of them might come to the same conclusion as the Orthodox church but the way in which they come to it is really incorrect.
Lolwut
Actually he did seek out the orthodox church but it was too difficult to keep up a correspondence because of the long distance and the time that it would take for letters to be sent back and forth. Also, saying that Luther was arrogant is a bit harsh since Luther never wanted to leave the catholic church but was excommunicated againsts his will and he never wanted to create his own church, I am sure that he would be quite saddened if he was resurrected today and saw a whole church movement named after him. Luther was simply a man that saw much corruption within the catholic church and wanted the common people to hear to word of God without it being altered by corrupt church officials and used to their own benefit such as the case with indulgence letters
Lmao well that’s circular. “Our tradition conforms to your opinion, therefore our tradition is correct and the way you come to your opinions is wrong.”
@@dugood70
The problem is it's not one schmuck of a man's opinion like luther, it's the consensus of the church led by ecumenical councils like the 1st one in Acts, a tradition which the bishops carried on as THEY had been given that AUTHORITY, an authority that a schmuck like Luther DID NOT HAVE!!!
And anyone who doesn't conform to that church authority invested by God is being rebellious and stiff necked just like the jews of old.
Orthobros:
Defending the opinions of sweaty, malnourished hippies in caves (sorry, I mistyped "monks") over the clear Word of God since the 7th Ecumenical Council.