Defending Chibnall's 'Cyberwoman'
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- Chris Chibnall has a bad reputation amongst most Doctor Who fans for a number of reasons. Let's see if his infamous Torchwood episode 'Cyberwoman' is actually better than people say.
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Ever thought of taking up tap dancing? You'd be a natural.
It’s purely the aesthetic of the outfit that’s terrible
Agreed. I quite like the story of the episode and Ianto’s desperation and the consequences of it but holy shit why is this creature of destruction look like it belongs in rule 34
yeah it looks like some dumb fanart shit
@@Edgelordfosho Yeah I love lewd shit but not at the cost of the narrative.
If you do 100 Good things (like donating money to charity etc.) and ONE Bad thing (like punch a Police Officer), that ONE Bad thing is how people will remember you, as if you never did anything good and you were always bad.
The same I think goes to this episode, It is a good episode with a good meaning and story to it aswell as a great Moral but sadly people only remember it for it's terrible costume design, this is a clear case that judging things by their worst is NOT always a good idea.
PS: I wanted to add this to the bottom to see if I anger someone (including myself typing it), TikTok is another thing EVERYONE I know including myself hates and would never use, but I do often see it on Reddit and UA-cam videos and WOW some of the videos people make on there are really good, it is sad that these few good videos are let down by a service mostly filled with terrible trash....
@@thephoenixking1086 why that last part here of all places?
I think the most disturbing thing in this episode was when Lisa said she tried to convert Dr Tanizaki as a way of “thanking him”. The Cybermen really do think they’re doing humans a favor by converting them
Sounds a lot like evangelists 😂
There's certainly a lot of merit in this story, especially trying to give Ianto a much bigger role in the plot. However, the design of the Cyberwoman sadly overshadows a lot of the good material from this story.
Indeed, the design is not just a "detail". It breaks the inmmersion. And is not a matter of budget
Agreed. "It works as long as you overlook X" doesn't work if X forcefully undermines every other point of the story. No one says "Leia killing Jabba works as long as you overlook **her** metal bikini" because no one needs to say that because no one needs to overlook it. There's a reason for it and it plays into why she's killing him.
This is the exact opposite.
@@shubzilla755 Bra-vo
Dasp
Yup. It's a serious story and you *cannot* take the story seriously with that design.
Seeing Ianto so emotional really gets to you. I don't know what the costume department was thinking of, but the story almost makes up for it.
the costume is genuinely the worst part of the episode. how am i supposed to be afraid of/for this woman when she's in a metal bikini and high heels?!
Yeah it looks like a x rated parody than anything threatening, what would have been better if at the end when they kill her Lanto sees her for what she is a mutilated half human half cyberman and what we were seeing was how Lanto was seeing her as a women who looks normal and beautiful trapped in the suit.
I generally disliked that costume, if it was more cyberman like, I would 100% watch it more.
The costume is pointlessly sexualised.
@@yormhammerson530 rather hypocritically, Chibnall, pretending to be the social and political warrior in his writing today, was the one who wanted this sexualisation. Wrote it into his description in the script and asked the costume department to make it sexualised
@@georgemurray8747 disappointing. I personally would have designed the costume similar to the borg. As in one artificial arm and artificial legs
@@georgemurray8747 source?
@@thatonedude I heard from someone else it was less just chibnall but more a set mentality of “one for the dads”
Meanwhile RTD himself tbh didn’t get why they wanted it so much
To be fair, the cyber tits would have been a lot worse if they'd had the Cybus logo on them
Cy-bust XD
What does everyone have against the Cybus logo? The point was that they were a brand!
@@TheSmart-CasualGamer yeah idk why people hate that. They are supposed to be the evolution of a giant tech company.
@@TheSmart-CasualGamer I never cared for evil Bill Gates/Stephen Hawkins wants to live forever origin. Much prefer the original dying race desperate to survive origin.
Remember that film where the guys "din gong" is owned by the Government?? Well this Woman's breasts would be owned by Cybus Industries hah XD
If she had a Danny pink like Cyberman costume with her corpse head showing, that would be TERRIFYING!
Yeah if she went more this way with it, maybe having something like one arm only partially done too - the corpse look
So that it leaves something for ianto to actually cling to
Or if they'd made her look more like the Lone Cyberman
@@christianwise637 I wonder if Chibnall came up with the Lone Cyberman because he wanted to rectify this episode.
i misread this and thought for a minute you were saying that danny should have had a costume like this OH NO
That would’ve been so cool
It's weird how Ianto is fine with Jack in the episodes immediately afterwards even to the extent that he falls in love with him.
they actually address this in the Big Finish audio Broken, apparently. I’ve heard it’s really good.
Broken is well worth a listen to fill in the gaps (GDL’s performance is brilliant)
@@silverdoe3658 I’ve heard one of the scenes and it’s great, really fleshes his character out.
Might be worth getting into that then.
@@jessica23claire I hate when they say there are answers but you have to go to another medium to find it. It makes the episodes feel off if you don't follow the other mediums.
The partially converted design should have cables puncturing skin, exposed muscle and bone, scars and burns from where the armour was plated over the tissue. Overall something worthy of a R rated cyborg.
Ianto's secret should have been hinted at in episode 2 and/or 3.
The dialogue and pacing is what let's the episode down it goes so fast that there's not enough time dedicated to Ianto's torment, Jack's fear, the psychological trauma of conversion and a sense of appreciation for the fact that this is a Cyberman story.
Some of these issues could've been improved if some of Jack, Gwen and Owen's scenes were cut. We've seen plenty of them in the previous 3 episodes. Especially that last scene with Jack and Gwen it felt very tact on.
This is a summary of Chibnall's work. A great concept that has a weak execution.
yeah I wish they’d leaned into the more body horror aspect of the cybermen
Would have love it. I love practical effects. Have it like Frankenstein’s monster. Having patch work skin grafts and stitches. Have it be almost painful to watch her walk (to that she can feel pain as her emotions are removed) have her skin look pale and dying as yes she is on life support but her skin could be decaying slighting as the life support is keeping her inner organs alive as priority and her skin is open to the air and damp of the basement.
strange how they came up with that cyberwoman outfit for a partial cyber transformation and it just looked so whack but in the same episode the japanese scientist gets partially converted and it looks GREAT
Chibnall's work on Doctor Who*
Chris Chibnall is a fine writer. Broadchurch in particular is excellent.
@@ShadeStormXD For my version of the Thirteenth Doctor, in his final series, he travels with a futuristic woman who is part-Cyberman as the Doctor was able to prevent the full conversion, but she is left with a few implants and her left hand contains some Cyber-technology. Her vocabulary and attitude are still part-Cyberman but her voice is human.
Something I would like to add. When Suzie killed herself in Episode 1, I was under the assumption she'd be a full series character not a one off so the show left an impression at the time that all the characters except Jack are vunrable to being killed off at any point. So seeing Gwen in the conversion chamber at the time actually did have me on edge.
And that's before we knew most team members die
All of the promotional material for season one featured Suzie alongside the rest of the team, so I think you are right in that it was intentional
The costume just isn't cyberman
They say in doctor who "no race no gender only Cybermen" or something along those lines
This costume is the exact opposite instead of uniformity it's a specialised design for a woman
If you're in a rush why make a breastplate shaped to fit boobs when you can mass produce the same plate and cut off anything that doesn't fit.
The metal tits were bad enough, and then she turns around and you get the full visual of the bikini bottoms with built in moulded metal arse crack.
The design was corny and sexist even for the early 00s. It didn't have to be that way and it undermines the whole story, as it's just impossible to take her seriously as a monster. The ludicrous pterodactyl fight is the final nail in a coffin that was already hammered pretty firmly shut.
@@ithrilzyne4542 exactly
@@lateralhistory it looks like an 80s sci-fi horror b-movie villain
But then that’s also a flaw with the main show as Cybermen are supposed to have no sex or gender so why are they called cyberMEN or cyberWOMAN. I’ve always wondered this for years if they’re supposed to lack race, gender, sex or class then why do they assign themselves a sex in their name? The costume of the generic Cyberman is modelled after males and masculine features so even with the Cyberwoman having a feminine costume it highlights the flaw in cybermen as they still assign themselves a sex.
Ashad was just missing a cyberbra to be truuuly intimidating
lol
Least Chibnall understands cyber conversion has no cure. That's one advantage over Moffat.
I've never thought that to be very likely. Sufficiently advanced technology would make this firmly possible. We may be some tens of years away from growing entire limbs artificially. We can do skin, ears and soft tissue things already in the lab.
reversing
Unfortunately, there is no cure for Chinballs :(
@@atomicdancer I don't hate him. I get why he's not liked but I did like the Master this season and to be fair to chibnall, the Daleks actually kill this time
I quite like this episode, just the design of the cyberwoman I hate
yeah something just looks off... what would you have preferred?
It's one of my favorite episodes but, yes, that outfit was weird considering cybermen have never looked like that.
@@sub-zero5433 I think if they approached it more like the doctor who got partially converted, making it scary and unsettling. Mix in some Danny pink with the suit exposing part sof his decaying body and it'll ramp up the horror tenfold.
I think this story is incredibly underrated, dispite the awful costume it does a far better job at making the cybermen seem like a legitimate world-ending threat than anything in new-who. I particularly liked the moment where Lisa is being helped to walk by Dr Tanizaki, you can see where the human part of her is overpowered by the cyberman part, and she goes from barely standing, in huge amounts of pain to unimaginably strong and void of emotion in a split second, serving to show visually the internal battle she's waging to keep control, one that she's all but lost from this point on
kinda wish that was a bit more clear, she goes from human to cyberman in a really awkward way
I think the lack of clarity makes it interesting, the cyberman programming asserts itself for the first time in this scene but I think the point is she's still part human throughout, she has the drive to upgrade everything around her as a cyberman, but she reacts emotionally like a human.
Unfortunately no "despite" is possible here. It's like saying "Despite the Dalek being dressed as a giant pink teddy bear, 'Dalek' made the lone Dalek a terrifying threat". That one thing just overpowers everything else.
Even though I'm not a Chibnall fan the good thing about this episode was showing the damage the Doctor leaves behind
The episode was fine I didn’t think it was terrible but it could do without the sexbot cyberwoman
"Sexbot Cyberwoman" - In all my years of watching Doctor Who, Torchwood etc. This is two words I NEVER thought I would hear together but here we are, Thank You Torchwood!!
🤣🤣🤣
So, the line they fed us was that Cyberwoman's 'costume' was a result of them SAVING TIME, so they could make the armour MORE QUICKLY? I call bullshit on that. How much sculpting and moulding would have been needed to make that bra, instead of just the standard square breastplate? Every other cyberman looks identical, which suggests their armour is mass-produced from a template - her skimpy bikini-bottoms and metal strap-style arm, belly and leg armour are clearly custom-made to fit her body. And, if she's meant to be deadly and unstoppable, HOW does it help her to have armour with so much unprotected flesh on view? She could be easily stabbed or shot with conventional weapons to be, at the very least, disabled. Nope, there is only one reason they made her look like a female avatar in the average online RPG game - and I think we all know what that reason is.
Gotta be honest, in Ianto's shoes, I can't say I would have done a single thing different, hell I never understood how he was able to live and not either kill himself like Suzie, or "Suicide-by-cop" by pulling a gun on the team after mourning over Lisa's corpse
Because the actor does such a good job at conveying his sheer loyalty to the one he loves I find it hard to see how he could ever forgive the team, let alone continue to work with them, MUCH less get with one of her killers
TLDR;
In Ianto's shoes, probably would've just kms at the end
tfw no cyber gf :c
I mean if you're interested the aftermath of cyberwoman is explored in a big finish audio called Broken. :)
Most doctor who fans don't like torchwood?? I loved the show
I was thinking the same competely. in fact I think the consensus is most people liked it as far as I know.
Most of the Whovians I know loved "Torchwood". I think this is all about how terrible Chris Chibnall is and how he's probably going to cause "Doctor Who" to be cancelled outright.
I loved Torchwood and despite MD being a bit iffy I really want more of it.
I didn't get into it but I didn't hate it
I loved it
I figured Ianto thought the conversion unit could be used to help her somehow. Maybe conversion units can also be used for maintenance and repairs? It was undoubtedly a bad idea, but I can see why he might have it.
Plus she told him how to build it and where to get the parts so she sure found excuses for why he needed that
When people thought Leia’s metal bikini was bad, wait until they see the cyberwoman
At least Leia got rid of that thing.
At least Leia's bikini made sense. She was supposed to be wearing skimpy clothing as she was a slave and helped spurn her on to kill Jabba.
@@peytonmac1131 Yup, Leia's bikini made perfect sense in context. Jabba was enjoying humiliating the princess.
Yeah i agree, jabba was clearly a predator, and said that she ‘will soon learn to love him’
So that made sense for hime to make her wear it, but the cyberwoman on the other hand was...ye know......
I'm with the others: at least with Leia they were trying to imply that she had been reduced to the level Jabba's sex slave (well, as much as their video certificate would allow them to), which gave her all the motive in the world for revenge, but here it was just blatantly one-handed character design.
You're right, this episode is brilliant. I hate that the costume is like that; I wish people could see past the bad design. The plot is actually really good. It's important to series one and has ties in with the rest of the series.
Gareth David-Lloyd gives a spectacular performance, making the episode even more emotional because, yes, it is emotional, especially at the end. The penultimate scene is one that tugs at the heart strings the most: with Lisa's bloodied, dead body on the ground; Lisa's brain inside the pizza girl; Ianto; the team killing Lisa in the pizza girl; then Ianto sobbing on the floor between the two bodies. Like I said, Gareth David-Lloyd is incredible in this - especially this scene, really giving that emotional effect, even with the design of the episode. The music is some of my favourite too: Another Day, Another death. It's a really beautiful piece used throughout the episode and in this penultimate scene to the final scene - it works very well here.
If they had designed Lisa more like a half-converted cyberman who'd been dragged out of a burning building - perhaps looking more like the cybermen from series 12 of Doctor Who but with her face showing and, for example, a chunk of armour missing from her arm with wires and whatnot - it could have had an even better effect showing how Ianto was pretty much blinded by his love for her. She may look like a robotic monster but she still had some humanity and he still loved her. He would do anything to save her which is another interesting insight into his character.
This episode is the first time we see the team in a very out of control situation. The past three episodes have been no where near as intense and high stakes as this. And, yes, they've face their challenges, but this is probably the closest the world ending or something close that we've got so far. It's so interesting to see them in a situation like that and gives an opportunity to look deeper into their characters.
We get to see that darker side to Jack, as well, clearly infuriated and betrayed by Ianto and probably scared because it's such a dangerous situation. We know Ianto was trusted with codes and that type of stuff. We even see him on the computer in Jack's office in the first episode. Jack put a lot of trust in Ianto so he would be very hurt by this betrayal. The conflict between the two of them in this episode is very interesting, made even more interesting by the fact that Jack saved Ianto's life then held a gun to his head again later in the episode.
I could ramble about this for days and I think I'm going to rewatch it now or soon because it is definitely one of my tops from s1. People need to stop being so quick to hate this episode for the design because they are missing out on one of the best plots in at least series 1.
I had no idea how skimpy the Cyberwoman's plating was, you can practically see inside her.
Yeah, and it kind of detracts from the whole "we can't kill her when she's in the suit" thing. Like, she's got a big squishy belly right there.
@@EddieM1994 and her face
@@EddieM1994 They needed some kind of forcefield excuse, or they needed a chest plate and face mask. (potentially improvised on the spot by her.)
it's those cyber high heels tho
When I think of a half converted Cybermen..I think one handle bar missing, less skimpy around the chest and no bra. Maybe one hand not coveted in steel gut her mouth is to show that crafting the helmet one was crudely rushed
yeah, like if they really wanted to keep flesh showing they couldve stuck her in bits of an actual cybermen - a breastplate/arm/leg, this looks like someone designed some cyberlingerie for her specifically
When I think of a half converted cyberman, I think of Ashad.
“...enough to make you perk up...”
Looks at cyber woman costume*
Poor choice of words...
How is it poor choice of words its his opinion.
@@foxydev4056 I don’t think you get the innuendo
@@foxydev4056 you don’t get the joke do you
The thumbnail looks like all those creepy MMO/RPG armor designs for female characters lol
All sexual, no protection. So stupid.
I have no idea where I saw it now but a webcomic did a funny spin on this where the entire thing, exposed 'skin' and all, was actually all an outer shell that the character could take on and off so it actually provided tons of protection. xD
But in the MMO/RPG the armour she wears gives the best protection in the game
@@irrevenant8724 link pls?
@@moneybxndz161 Found it: mobile.twitter.com/gunshadart/status/1049413611251277824/photo/1
Lmao hearing that she's "more cybermen than human" when she is barely dressed Like a cyberman is just so ironic
Her design really breaks the themes by having her expose so much skin/human body when cybermen are supposed to be more machine than human
and i don't think a half coverted cyberman would look like that
My thoughts exactly.
Beyond the silly design of the Cyberwoman, this is the type of story we should have been getting from the Cybermen since day one...
I just realised this is basically a sexy version of the Lone Cyberman from Series 12. Ripping yourself off or trying to rectify an idea that went poorly? You make the call!
I think people are too quick to accuse Chibnall of ripping off earlier stories. Doctor Who has a particular setting and style to it. Seeing the same creatures and themes again and again is part of the *point.* And as far as I can tell, Chibnall always does something to put his own personal touch on things.
Almost spat out my drink at that thumbnail cause I had never seen that abomination before and was really confused thinking I missed an eposide... then I realized it was in Torchwood 🌝
I haven’t finished the video yet, but a few things IMO about the episode:
Obviously the armour... visually doesn’t make much sense because why would a partial conversion be so neat and... sexual.
Also I find the acting in this episode to be far weaker than the rest of the show... maybe it’s the way it’s written/directed...
But also... the way Jack reacts especially towards Ianto... it’s almost villainous. Over the top. I think if they’d perhaps made reference to him believing he lost Rose due to the Cybermen and the Battle of Canary Wharf, it would have made more sense as to why it seemed to intensely personal for him.
100% agree with you! I have a feeling that the design of the Cyberwoman, along with the infamous "Sex Gas" episode were desperate attempts to show the audience "HEY WE ARE FOR ADULTS!"
Design aside, the Cyberwoman is probably one of the most intimidating enemies in S1. This episode also gives Ianto the spotlight. I like that this is episode 4, as when you go back and watch the first 3 episodes we can assume whenever Ianto isn't with the group that he was with his Cyber girlfriend!
There is also an interesting parallel with Ianto and Suzie - You think Jack would want to know his comrade's better after what happened to her! It makes me wonder if Ianto's secret had been kept would things have gotten a lot worse? :O
Why do so many shows trying to show the audience "HEY WE ARE FOR ADULTS!" instead come across as being for teenage boys? :/
@@irrevenant8724 in an interview, one of the creators said that they designed lisa FOR nerdy teenage boys to have a pin up so...
I mean we can overlook this in the shadow of his run on doctor who.
The best part about this episode was Tanizagi's failed conversion, we need more shit like that.
Yeah, thats honestly what lisa should have looked like.
Agreed. The monster isn't the Cyberman, its equal parts body horror and losing your individuality. This fails on the latter part by individualising a Cyberman with metal tits, but excels in the former with bloodied bodies and brain transplant scars.
Please tell me "the titular cyberwoman" was a deliberate pun...
I never hated this episode. I found it fun, and the sound of the Cyberwoman's Shoulder Shock is theraputic as hell.
Chibnall did not design the cyberwoman he just wrote the story which he was asked to do by Davies so it is the prop dept to blame for the design
True, but equally a writer does not lose all control of the final product as soon as he finalises the script. He could tell the costume department, "this boner-baiting outfit undermines a serious story I'm trying to tell, please change it." He didn't do that, or if he did he was ignored.
@@alexpotts6520 Davies was running the show so he has the final say I would presume
@@alexpotts6520 I'm with Boo - this was RTD's call, not Chibnall's. If you're the writer and the showrunner tells you your story is going to have a scantily clad cyberwoman, you can politely suggest otherwise but ultimately it's not your call.
He wasn't just the writer though, he actually co-produced this. He absolutely had a say.
@Irrevenant
He could have always politely suggested harder, I suppose. Then again, I've no idea what working on Torchwood was like, maybe he politely suggested until he was blue in the face and was still ignored, and me pontificating from my semi recumbent position on the settee just proves I know nothing of his struggles. Hey, that could be an allegory for current events!
Unpopular opinion, but I don't think Torchwood realised its potential until Children of Earth. That's the Torchwood it should have always been, and until then through Series 1 and 2 it just kind of bobbed along... had some good bits but never really kicked in.
Cyberwoman itself was one of the downpoints.
I really liked first season of Torchwood, second season had a couple of... questionable episodes but it was still enjoyable. I liked season three a lot and four too.
Children of earth is better than a lot of doctor who , but it was definitely the peak of torchwood
I think it’s too hard to compare seasons 1&2 to seasons 3&4, the format is so different they nearly feel like completely different shows. Both are good in separate ways imo.
I vehemently disagree. Children of Earth was a fantastic piece of television, but just because series 1 and 2 weren't on the same level of ~quality~ doesn't mean they were the wrong kind of show to make or didn't have their own identity. RTD's Doctor Who had a really interesting tone which was at times very silly and fun and camp, but at times very dark and weighty and creepy. It balanced those two sides very well. Torchwood does the exact same thing, especially in series 2. It's very much like an extension of RTD's Doctor Who, but with the freedom to explore different subject matters (like queerness, for which it was before its time!) that Doctor Who can't do. There's a lot series 1 and 2 could've done better, but there was clearly a core philosophy behind them.
i watched torchwood before i ever got into doctor who and i loved it. cyberwoman was one of my fav episodes for the sole reason that it's a fantastic character piece. ianto carries the episode and his actor does such an amazing job. i still get misty when he's crying over lisa at the end it just breaks your heart, he tried so hard, sacrificed so much and he failed in the worst way possible.
It wasn't until recently that I realized that Cyberwoman was so hated (then again, it's been years since I had any interest in Torchwood). I never hated the episode, yeah the costume wasn't great, but my focus was always on Ianto since the actor gave a great performance. In fact, this is the episode that started his ascent into being arguably my favorite character, and why I couldn't bring myself to watch Miracle Day after the events of Children of Earth.
omg are you me? lol. I feel the same about everything you just said!
@@bunnylop9713 OMG! I have a doppelganger?! Yay!😁😁😁 I love Ianto so much even after all these years. He was such a mystery as the quiet one of the team and he was so sassy when he wanted to be. I loved his relationship with Jack, and he goes through a great character development. I never really liked Gwen, especially after her affair with Owen who I just hated, cause I loved Reese, he was great.
@@tatianamelendez490 haha yes! I agree again, that's exactly how I felt. I was so distraught after Children of Earth that I had a hard time even watching Dr Who, so I'm only just getting back into it all now. Hopefully I can watch Torchwood again because I used to love it so much 😊
@@bunnylop9713 If I go back to Torchwood, I'd stick with the 1st 2 seasons. The other 2 don't exist as far as I'm concerned.
@@tatianamelendez490 sounds like a plan :)
I just love this story for being that one time a Doctor Who villain was included. Now the Weevils need to be used in a Doctor Who story.
@@InfiniteThing I heard that and every time I watch the scene, I can't see them. But there is a still image of one alongside a silurian. However, I'm not talking about a cameo, I mean a full blown story for them, which is what I think Orphan 55 should have been.
@@adamburke4738 Planet of the Weevils would be great. It'd be nice to finally get a proper name for them too. Even if it's just: "DOCTOR: They're called sqpfurgnz', "JACK: Yeah, I'm just gonna stick with 'weevils'." xD
@@irrevenant8724 given that I don’t like the current era of Who as much as I wanted to, I’ve found myself wanting to have a crack at my own Who stories and admittedly a Planet of the Weevils story has been on my mind but it’s just trying to figure out the logistics.
@@adamburke4738 How so?
@@irrevenant8724 I like a good villain that isn't just a mindless beast of savagery. But the Weevils have always been very interesting yet they never had a load of development. Though I always liked the idea of them being humans that were altered by an apocalyptic event, hence why I always think they should have been used in Orphan 55. I don't know, there's a lot of ways to go about doing a Weevil story.
Great analysis! Cyberwoman is actually one of my favourite episodes for all the reasons you listed. I had heard rumors the episode was horrible before watching it and never really understood why. It's really just the costume design (and maybe Pterodactyl fight) that's problematic. But nothing that can't be overlooked in the face of a brilliant character-driven and tense story arc, imo.
The costume only bothered me for like the first 5 minutes then i got sucked in by the story.
It's like how you said before how the first series has a lot of singular episodes the give one particular character a spotlight and dives into them as a person. Cyberwoman focuses on Ianto. Greek Bearing Gifts focuses on Tosh, The Ghost Machine and Combat focus on Owen and then the obvious of Captain Jack Harkness focusing on Jack. having more people in the team means you need these moments to explore these people and this is a great episode for exploring Ianto and who he is and his place in the world and in the team. Gwen's character exploration is ongoing through the series so while she does have singular episodes focused on her she is our surrogate so we are seeing her full development from the start. But yeah apart from the cyber boobies and the pterodactyl fight this is a good episode. solid story, decent writing and character development, interesting plot and great acting from Gareth David Lloyd.
Usually when some episodes have some bad parts, I ignore them and just like you do it here, I find something good in them
As a general principle I'm completely on board with that. I'm often the first to jump in and defend episodes that other people are ragging on. But in this case the 'bad part' is the antagonist's visual appearance. You're hit with that every single time she's onscreen, and she's onscreen a lot. That's very hard to ignore.
This is the one "sexy" costume that I think nobody would want.
One of my favorite scenes is when Ianto asks "when did you last ask me anything about my life?"
I can kind of understand the metal bra (possibly these are under the external armour of women who converted) but the kitten heels are just taking the piss
Honestly if someone did a deepfake/edit type thing and replaced Lisa with Ashad the Lone Cyberman. This would be incredibly loved, and it wouldnt even affect the romance subplot because of Ianto later on in the story
Imagine this episode but with the design of the lone cyberman from doctor who season 12 instead of the cyberwoman
It could have actually been good 😂
I wonder if Chris came up with that character because he wanted to rectify this.
@@samuelbarber6177 I think it's Chibnall revisiting earlier ideas with a new spin. I don't think it's a deliberate attempt to make up for this. If it were, I'm pretty sure he would've made Ashad female.
See the premise is quite a interesting one like a partially converted person whos half and half. It hasnt been done really ever since in the show unless you wanted to count the Lone Cyberman in the latest series. I think this premise can work if its done right
It was done in Attack of the Cyberman by Eric Saward. The main character who's converted begs the Doctor for a mercy euthanasia, but gets done in by the Cyberleader instead.
loving the torchwood content, hating the cyberwoman costume
The outfit is awful and makes no sense. Cybermen dont upgrade men into Cybus suits and upgrade women into cyber bikinis. The word cyberwoman makes no sense either as cybermen are both genders. There’s parts of the episode where it looks completely plastic and there’s parts where they forget to add in the metallic sound so she’s just stomping around in this plastic bra 🤦🏻♂️ everything Chibnall does is done to sort of get one of his kinks on the screen. Making the whole cast bisexual so all the women can get off with each other, the sex gas, the cyberwoman. It now looks like he’s going to make Yaz and 13 a thing which I don’t think is for diversity or lgbt people at all, I think it’s purely so he can have another woman on woman fantasy displayed on screen.
Then there’s the fact that the whole cast seem to be high or drunk during this episode, everyone’s acting goes out the window, is completely over the top and just plain bad in some instances. Iantos acting is really poor for some reason. And yet all of them are brilliant actors during the rest of the season.
It’s just an embarrassment upon the entire Doctor who franchise, it’s the Star Wars holiday special of Doctor who, it feels like a cheap fan film from start to finish with terrible overacting, it takes itself way too seriously and it’s just tragic that it was able to make it to broadcast.
The Cyber Controller in Doomsday says they will remove sex, so yeah that is a bit odd.
It's like they raided Lady Gaga's wardrobe.
Seeing when this was aired, I think it's the other way around :D
@@1972LittleC the wardrobe raided lady gaga?
@@letsmakegames947 you ever watched Gaga's Pokerface?
@@1972LittleC or her latest alien style 1
As messy and laughable the episode is, it did successfully added another layer to Ianto's character - making him more than just Captain Jack's loverboi. If it wasn't for this, we probably wouldn't get audio drama like Broken or Coffee.
He wasn't Captain Jack's loverboi at this point. That came later.
I didn't even know it was despised, because I actually really liked it
Edit: and now I'm getting the urge to watch the episode again
It's also the only Cyberman story of the modern era where they don't use that awful stomping sound effect whenever one walks. Their silence back in the day, and how they could appear out of nowhere, was part of what made them so creepy
I and my family are big fans of Fritz Lang's 1927 film Metropolis. I was named Maria after the very curvy Robot in this movie. Chibnal did a brilliant modern day homage to this very movie, he even had the mind swapping and I love it as a Doctor Who fan aswell. I just wish other Doctor Who fans could see it like that. Also Sci Fi Fantasy boobs what's wrong with that, isn't that what Sci Fi Fantasy is supposed to be about. Maria Metropolis, Seven Of Nine, Cylon Number 8, Red Sonja, Deja Thores , the Orion Slave Girls, Kate Thornton mostly dressed as Athena bouncing along on her horse in the Game of War adverts and Princess Leia in her Slave Girl outfit. ;) X
Are you going to do the other spin offs episode by episode such as Sarah Jane adventures and class?
On stream he said that he wasn't going to do the Sarah Jane adventures, and I don't think he'll do Class if he doesn't do SJA. There's a chance though.
@@orangepizzaparty688 that’s disappointing I would’ve liked to see him go over them
@@ryanduncan6096 He said they wouldn’t bring in enough views as with Torchwood it has a weird infamy of Chibnall’s origins and the controversy of some episodes so I don’t think SJA and Class will do as well
Great defence of an episode, I completely forgot about the costume and pterodactyl but remember that this is the episode Ianto became a great fully fleshed out character.
I am glad I am not the only one that as a kid only watched this episode of Torchwood and was traumatized by it.
Well it's not meant to be watched by kids
God damn I love seeing that Metal eye plate just protruding out of this dudes face, it's so horrifying. How did I forget any of this when I first saw this back in 2012
Oh yah. Cyber woman
"it's a Cyberman's instinct to want to convert people" gave me images of pairs of Cybermen turning up on people's doorsteps asking them if they have a moment to talk about having their emotions removed...
alot of people forget that the cybermen were trying to change full human bodies, not just removing the minds like they usually do. so that actually explains quite a bit of the costume
This is something I wish torchwood did more, deal with the aftermaths of doctor who stories. Or even just having any other Doctor Who villains featured in the show.
I agree that the character development and interactions outweigh the metal boobs but the costume is so jarring and so out there. You see it or part of it in every scene she is in causing a serious wince (at least in my case). The slow reveal with the camera crawling up her body is too sexualized, too icky. Even Tanizaki cupping the tin boob is SO CREEPY. How could anyone write that? The fact that Ianto sees her as a person, as someone he loved and respected outweigh a lot of that creep factor. Great review.
Why would a Cyberman grin? Does not compute.
I mean in fairness the Cybermen have been presented as over emotional than they should be before (see 'Revenge of the Cybermen')
@@calumbishop7082 And that story is criticised for that as well. The modern show should know better.
Have you watched world enough and time yet.
*points at Bill Potts*
*points at "EXCELLENT!"*
*points at Sally Phelan in Rise of the Cybermen*
@@JayDragonarcProductions Bill and Sally were broken. The "Excellent" thing is just bad writing, contradicting what Cybermen are supposed to be.
I know the Cyberwoman is also broken, but why would she grin evilly then. The other two just reverted back to their original personality. Even Ashad makes sense, as he was converted willingly, so his original personality was probably a very nasty person. If she's part normal human, part an emotionless cyborg where does this evil grinning come from?
I had no clue this episode was so controvertial. I'm a recently-made torchwood fan and I genuinely liked this episode even if the first glance at the cyberwoman made me scoff. After that though, I could seemingly ignore the costume cause I loved the episode so much.
YOU ARE TEARING ME APART, LISA!
The emotional gravitas of this episode was a huge benefit for it and for me made it worth putting up with the bad costume design for sure. Ianto was my favourite of the show so this episode will always be a highlight for me as he is never explored this deeply again in Torchwood which is such a shame.
The problems that I have outside this apart from the costume is that it's too early in the show's for this kind of drama about Ianto, they try to have a chase in the bunker when it's too small and narrow for it, it should be great drama but just turns into whining and yelling, not so much from Ianto more from Jack. And it just keeps throwing more and more ludicrous stuff at it, the pizza girl honestly just feels like Lazarus problem of just accidentally resolving the plot too early so having to do it again to pad out the run time
Yeah, so weird that each character's first focused episode is about them fucking up (except for Gwen.)
@@nightowl8477 Character piece= let's make everyone hate the character we're focusing on aparently. Tbf that is what Family of Blood does but still.
20:14
Banner on the moon
"Oh don't attack this week because Sarah Jane, she's on her hols!"
This was hated? I mean, yeah, the costume is eye-roll worthy. But the story was definitely one that always stuck with me. And the cleverness of writers using Ianto's status as a more minor character to their advantage was something I really admired.
Love how the Cybermen went with the high heels too.
22:43 The problem for me wasn't that Jack shouldn't have an edge it's just how they did it. As Davis said when talking about Torchwood S1 whenever he wasn't the focus of an episode he was often unlikeable, he started yelling whenever the team does the slightest thing he doesn't want. Yeah, he's got a reason to be angry here but not even a little empathy? Him trying to make Ianto kill her instead of just doing it himself is just sadism. Honestly, the best example of dark Jack outside Children of Earth is Parting of the Ways, him angrily calling out the people of Satelite 5 for not helping fight the Daleks and lying to people about whether the guns would work.
I liked Cyberwoman when I first saw it. I didn't think people had such a big problem with the costume.
If the only big issue with the episode is the goofy costume, then I gotta say this is a great episode.
20:35 - A little insight I wasn't expecting, there.
Really brilliant review, you definitely made me rethink this episode, though I didn't remember it very well so I didn't really hate it. Still perhaps the fact that they chose that design of all the choices they could have made kind of pisses me off, given that this episode wasn't even average or good but great.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a note at some point that read, “yeah, it’s Doctor Who, but this is for adults. Can’t we make the woman... sexy? I mean she isn’t fully converted, we don’t know what the first step looks like! Make it sexy!!”
"Aliens don't work on shifts" You don't know that, have you asked them? lmao
"titular Cyberwoman" you knew what you were doing and you liked it
I don't get the hate for this one, sure the cyberwoman looks goofy but aside from that it is a damn good episode and probably one of my favorites in all of torchwood. It also makes her feel like a genuine threat, something that who and it's spin offs often fail at with the iconic monsters like the daleks and cybermen. The more they appear the less threatening they seem but here the cyberwoman truly feels like a monster to be scared of.
I’ve never heard the point about how it took inspiration from Dalek in Season 1, really interesting point :)
Bro this episode was fire wtf??? After i watched this episode i was just wishing chris chibnall was able to make doctor who episodes as good as that one
But yeah the costume is trash lol
Why couldn't the lone cybermen be a cyberwoman? Edit: Like underworld, this episode gives me a bad taste without watching five minutes.
Try looking past the costume then you'll have a good story.
@@foxydev4056 That’s pretty hard lol
I've been thinking the same. It's *such* a missed opportunity to redeem himself for his association with this episode.
In Day One, Cyberwoman is foreshadowed, during the Chinese meal scene, when the CCTV turns on. Gwen asks the team why they are eating when there is a girl suffering downstairs. The scene immediately turns to Ianto seeming very conflicted. I thought it was a nice detail when rewatching.
I also like to believe it was Ianto who designed the appearance to make her look more human in hopes that she could always use clothing to hide the metal if she ever recovered enough to go out in public.
I think I would have explained it with a line about "We could only pull off so much armor." and then have her reclaim the chest plate at some point, but not the mask.
kind of ironic that Ianto ends up dying in Jack's arms later on.
From the mind of chris chibnall: what if the Cybermen... but a sexy Cyberwoman?
How it should have ended: RTD says “Get out. Never come near Doctor Who ever again.”
I always thought this was a really good episode, I guess because I watched it when it first came out so I was really young and more focused on a Cyberman itself being in another show than the design flaws, great review!
Costuming aside, I actually don’t mind this episode, although that is at least in part because Ianto is my favourite
I actually enjoy cyberwoman, and my issues with the design are less about the 'etheric beam locators' and more about the fact they gave her cyber stilettos
Fantastic analysis/breakdown and Fantastic Defense (for the episode anyway, cause yeah that costume is a bit indefensible). You pointed out some fantastic parallels (like gwens) I never noticed.
You're reviews of Torchwood have been a joy! You've reminded me of why I fell in love with this show and how good it really was/is. It's so nice to see it's getting some love. Looking forward to the next one.
Any chance of you looking over some of the Big finish torchwood series? There have been some great character studies in those. Would love to see a highlight reel of some of the best.
I was so excited for this ep. I was like "I wanna know more about Ianto! He seems like a cool guy". Then I saw a metal bikini and a teradactyl fight that I found hilarious. It could've been a great ep with a few changes. I was already struggling to get into it because of the costume and then the fight ruined the atmosphere by making me laugh.
I suppose it makes some sense as:
1) the cybermen went insane and this lead to them dying this would probably be changed in the future as not dying was the whole point of the cyber men
2) from a scientific perspective it makes sense as metal holds onto heat more so it would make cooling harder. So the holes make sense
3) they are roughly the same size as a standard human so internal volume is quite low having no skeleton makes sense and an exterior of steel makes a lot of sense for mobility
I haven't seen the episode yet so if these are stated in the episode then sry.
just saying. take the design from series 12 lone cyberman and put it in this story. then I think it would have worked better.
Another sad aspect of thos ep is the racial dynamic which is briefly touched on when Lisa takes the pizza girl's body, who just happens to be a blonde white woman and then she reminds Ianto of how he always told her he didnt love her for what she looked like, which is about the most unintentionally racist and offensive thing you could say to a woman. 🤦🏿♂️
This is my favourite episode in season 1. The only thing I don't like about it is the costume design. I love everything else about it.
When I first watched torchwood as a kid I remember deciding that ianto was my favourite character during his very first scene, then he didn't get much to do in the first couple episodes so when I got to this one I was so excited for a ianto centric episode.
I can honestly say I loved this episode and it's one of my favourites of Torchwood season 1.