Do the benefits of deadlifts and squats outweigh the risk of injury? | Peter Attia and Stuart McGill
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
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This clip is from episode 287 - Lower back pain: causes, treatment, and prevention of lower back injuries and pain with Stuart McGill, Ph.D. Stuart McGill is a distinguished professor emeritus at the University of Waterloo and the chief scientific officer at Backfitpro Inc. (www.backfitpro...) where he specializes in evaluating complex cases of lower back pain from across the globe.
In this clip, Peter and Stuart discuss:
- The importance of correct movement patterns
- Common injuries of people who deadlift
- The idea of sufficient fitness
- And more
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He said, let’s ask ortho surgeons who they’re replacing knees and hips for, and as an orthopedic surgery PA I will tell you right now we are not replacing knees and hips of retired athletes. We are replacing the knees and hips of people who never worked out. We are replacing the knees and hips of people who have had a BMI >30 for decades. Deadlifting and squatting are basic human movements, but they are also skills. It’s a skill to lift heavy things off the ground. And if you don’t practice a skill, you won’t be good at it. If you’re not good at it, you get hurt. I hear the argument, which is that training to constantly hit a new PR will create extreme stress on the body, but there’s a big difference from training for longevity (which includes practicing squatting and deadlifting) vs pushing a PR constantly like a powerlifter. I’m sorry but I won’t tell someone not to practice a basic human movement. I’ll certainly explain to them how to do it responsibly, but eliminating it all together is not right
well said
Thanks for this comment. When he said the 30 year yoga statement he lost some credibility with me.
Yeah I think the clip lacked nuance, now it kinda came off as "should you do heavy deadlifts and aim for new PRs vs not doing any deadlifts at all". I'm pretty sure the middle ground option still contributes to longevity.
💯👏👍🔥
I've had both my hips replaced due to other causes and I competed in powerlifting before the surgeries and am doing the movements again now (after appropriate recovery) and I can tell you the squat and deadlift, relatively light, have helped my overall recovery. And I'm 59 so these guys just don't seem to get it. In fact I plan to compete again, at lighter total weights, in the not too distant future, at least once more.
So, instead of avoiding deadlifts, why not just aim for "sufficient strength" at deadlifts? Maybe only adding smaller amounts of weight over longer periods of time, and then not trying to go beyond a certain threshold?
Great question. Was thinking the same thing. Hopefully we get an answer.
I find this is where im at with deadlifts and squats, i will rep out 225 for both, but never go higher due to a previous back and knee injuries.
@@Exendin, so 226 is going to injure you? Won't 226 make you stronger than 225? And if you do 226, is 227 going to magically injure you? You get stronger by progressively overloading, even by tiny loads. Do the same, stay the same.
I think this was a question many left this video with..... @@tomryan5948
That’s what I do with body pump and strength training with Les Mills.
My mother has been doing a Starting Strength style barbell routine for 3 years and is hitting PRs at age 77. She's also gotten her bone density back into healthy normal range.
Best novice program on earth
@@griffin7274 Where can I find it?
@griffin7274 Starting Strength or Phrak's Greyskull? I'm going Greyskull just because there's a bit more variety
EVERYONE should deadlift and start with the starting strength, novice linear progression
@@gsquared2394Disingenuous.
Why do people often times go straight to 'powerlifters' when talking about deadlifts and squats? I get the point you are trying to make but fear a lot of people will misunderstand. A squat and a deadlift are essential movement patterns. It not necessarily about chasing 1 RM's. You always talk about getting up off of the toilet. I can't imagine more useful things than maintaining strength in squats and hinges. Squats and deadlifts, in any number of variations, definitely have a place and you can just aim for 'sufficient' with proper rep counts, load management and RPE control. No need to scare people out of them. It's like saying a mild jog is bad because of old marathon runners have jacked up knees and hips.
That's a great point
they may mimic essential movements, but they aren't essential EXERCISES to do for training those muscle groups. Avoiding axial loading is important in middle age and on
@@droliver No one exercise is essential - but a movement pattern that mimics that essential movement is. It can be an RDL, stiff leg deadlift OR a cable pull through/lighter kettle bell work. You are being semantic, I see why, but we both know what he meant.
@@droliver That isnt to say I disagree with minimizing very high axial loads. Unilateral movements or moderate weights are great alternatives.
@@droliver "Avoiding axial loading is important in middle age and on" This is misguided and self-limiting movement pessimism, in conflict with the current literature on the topic.
It would be helpful if this interview distinguished between deadlifting to increase one’s max deadlift and deadlifting at say, 50% of max for more general strength, stability, and fitness.
Yeah, 1RM lifts are always risky when you get strong, but is doing your 20RM going to have the same consequences long term?
I think so, around the 8:00 mark.
I am not sure 50% of max will work for general strenght :) I will aim for 6-12 reps, 50% of max is like 30-40 reps I think and it is more cardio in my opinion.
Nobody is doing 50% and making any strength gains... Just sounds like an excuse not to put in any effort
This is grease the groove in essence. Pavel tsatsouline has talked about it. And think you will find that mcgill modified brian carrolls training somewhat in tnis matter. But it works in my experience. You can obtain a good functional level of strength and avoid injury risk. Its a fun and sustainable way to train.
I do one day of primary deadlift and one day of rdls. I am a 58 yo orthopedic surgeon and just competed in my first powerlifting competition. Have only been lifting regularly for about a year and set a PR of 474 lbs and I qualified for nationals later this year. I feel better than I have in years ! And I can honestly say it’s not the patients who have lifted and remained strong that I replace their hips. It’s mostly those who have not been active and have serious metabolic issues like obesity and diabetes. If you train with lower rpes And only peak when you need to then you do not overtax your body or injure your body. I understand what Dr. McGill is saying but I wouldn’t over generalize on deadlifting and squats to say they are bad for you. That’s simply not true.
He is using the minority to blanket statement the majority. Form, frequency, RPE all play a role. Any movement can be safe if done with proper form, at a moderate weight.. Try to convince me someone deadlifting 135 for sets of 10 for 50 years will ruin their body rather than help them get up and down from the toilet...
Thank you !
As a PT, I appreciate your honesty and "real world" view associated with replacing joints, specifically the hip. Stay strong and active and avoid the "wear and tear" world.
Issue is he is using advanced athletes and comparing them to novices. It all boils down to understanding that the CNS doesnt adapt and the stress, recovery, adapt process. This get longer the more advanced you get as a lifter.
Talk to people who have lifting heavy for 30+ years and McGill’s words are a microcosm of their lives. No one needs to argue what he says. Live and learn the hard way.
The dose makes the poison.
Deadlifts are fantastic, if done properly and at a reasonable weight.
Agreed! It's an essential pattern to train for everyday life. I'm a big fan of Dr. McGill, so I'm surprised to hear him say that instead of something like, do sets of 8-10 reps at a weight that leaves a couple of good form reps in the tank. Every 7-10 days
I love a guy who THINKS...and can quote Paracelsus.
Honestly think cleans are superior to the deadlift, more athletic. More explosive.
@@aethylwulfeiii6502, cleans are about power (which is time-dependent) with submaximal loads. DL are about maximum force production, with no concern about time-dependent power. They are completely different lifts. Why not do both? Surely you can clean more if you can deadlift 500lbs vs 300lbs.
I mean, he's talking specifically about people that come to his clinic that have severe back pain issues already. He's dealt with enough patients to know that telling a person with back pain to start dead lifts is not the *best* treatment to a person with back pain.
Thanks for sharing this conversation. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge that you both share. However, my viewpoint on these exercises is slightly different.
I am an orthopedic surgeon and the owner of a rehab facility. I perform sport surgery and joint arthroplasty (knees and hips, approximately 150 per year) on a regular basis. I am an advocate of squatting and deadlifting in my many of my patients, and I don't have patients avoid these exercises with the idea of preventing osteoarthritis of the hip. I believe that they are valuable tools within moderation to develop strength, mobility, and proprioception in most patients.
I do agree that there are other exercises that can be used stimulate the muscle groups desired, however, I still believe that deadlifts and squat an be safely employed as alternative options. While extremely heavy lifts MAY predispose a person to osteoarthritis, this is not universally the case. I have osteoarthritic patients needing arthroplasties who have indeed lifted heavy weights, but also have those who have never deadlifted or squatted in their life. Consequently, I don't think that it is simply the exercise that are at fault. Rather, it is a combination the exercise, the stated goals, and the context and manner in which they are used.
I do think that in the appropriately selected individuals, deadlifts and squats can be used under appropriate supervision and training with moderate resistance (at or near bodyweight) on an intermittent basis without significant risk of advancing osteoarthritis.
Should the average person being trying to PR their deadlift or squat on a regular basis? Not at all. But that doesn't mean that we should abandon these exercises completely.
Humby, my $0.02.
great comment
Great to see you contributing here thanks Doctor.
You’re now officially “one of those people down in the comments” 😆
Excellent comment
Thank you for chiming in with actual evidence doc! We need to defer to the people with experience
At 67 I deadlift and squat regularly. I keep it at low weight, 135, 185, 225, 275 only 5-6 reps. I find it keeps my posterior chain strong and allows me to toss in the air my 5 year old grandson. I do prefer to use quad bar as I don’t have to concentrate so much! 💪🏻
Nice humblebrag
I am 66 and have trained since 19 and I still squat and deadlift,since last year have added mace and clubs to my training.Have found Adex to make very good adjustable systems..
We all brag, including you. Don't be an hypocrite there Olivier@@olivierporte
I’m 112 and I still deadlift 400lbs everyday. I’m tossing my great great grandson all over the place! I don’t need no stinking quad bar.
U must hate your life huh ? @@olivierporte
This is a tremendously bad take. Any exercise performed with appropriate loading and practice is safe. His client interaction was completely fear-based. Undoubtedly, this will increase the likelihood this person perceives deadlifting as a threat to their bodily safety.
Dr. McGill makes a false equivalency between quad strength necessary for a deadlift and endurance necessary for backwards incline walking. The muscle orientations are different, the energy systems are different, and the stimulus is novel. This has nothing to do with not having quad strength from deadlifts and everything to do with not train in endurance of the quad in the context of backwards incline walking. Making someone do something that feels hard and then pretending it is evidence of something else is completely disingenuous. Dr. McGill either knows this or doesn’t. Either way it’s a totally bad look.
I think he's more experienced than you
@@MikeRepluk OP is correct, McGill is argueing with a false equivalency. The literature and other experts also disagree with him.
I don't want to sound disrespectful to someone who has put in the effort but the way Stuart McGill argues in this video is more centered around his person rather than research. Also, he has not answered the question of Peter Attia.
I felt no more educated at the end other than do not go too hard when you are older. I could have said that myself.
You obviously have a problem with comprehension.....maybe buy his book The Back Mechanic Stuart McGill is world renowned in his field.
Brother, just because i dont share your opinion doesnt mean that I have a Problem. I have read lots of his research more than 5 years y. There is no doubt about his research but rather this interpretation. Maybe you are fueled by confirmation and comformitity bias
You obviously have a problem with credulousness. Tell you what - go find any actually well-controlled research that supports any appreciable benefit of anything Stu McGill has ever recommended as a treatment for back pain - anything that distinguishes it from the mere passage of time. Report back. Meanwhile, keep making him wealthier by buying his books. @@timothy5988
@@timothy5988you seem to be projecting your own limitations friend.
Confused by this interview. 1000lb deadlifters might be microfracturing vertebrae with PRs, but is the 15 year-old hitting 135lbs for the first time really getting anywhere near that systemic load? McGill has dedicated a lot of time and effort to understanding stabilizing the spine for squats and deadlifts. Why bother if they're so inherently dangerous? I just think there's a more effective middle ground for safely building strength and muscle that lies between '1RM deadlifts to the point you fracture your spine' and 'unloaded backwards hill walks.' That middle ground involves some squats and deads in the 3-10 rep range. I wish McGill would have addressed that.
I'd love to hear more about the hip replacements in 50 year old women who've practiced yoga for 30 years.
Would be nice for him to elaborate on that, when did yoga become an exercise that wears out the hips?
@@92jhvmthis whole movement in the west to make yoga some form of exercise is insane . Go to India , you won’t see people do yoga for exercise or extreme mobility or to just get a good strech . The whole way Yoga is adopted in the west is what’s wrong with it !
I think it’s because they don’t build muscle and strength to support the hips. Building and/or maintaining Muscle mass is key to longevity.
I don’t do yoga but that blew my mind
Hello. I've made a comment in the main section about it. If it brings something towards an answer please read it. Thanks.
I will never stop squatting and deadlifting. You don‘t have to max out all the time but using moderate weights and reps as you age should not be an issue.
No one is telling u not to do it. They are simply telling u the long term reprecussions. At the end of the day u get to live with the consequences of ur own decisions.
@@addorsubtract650 There can be repercussions to deadlifts, but not squats. Squats are essentially for long term health, strength and maintaining bone density.
Why does doing yoga lead to a need for hip replacements?
It has to do with hypermobiliy. Especially if you lack strength too. Here's a copy/paste about this: "Hypermobile joints can put you at a long-term risk of arthritic changes due to wear and tear on the cartilage. If you’re hyperextended, it’s important to strength train to build up the muscles surrounding your joints, in order to stabilize them."
Yeah I was curious about that, I've never heard anyone say old yogis have joint problems before, I thought it was designed to help with aging not mate it worse 😊
@@vancouverbill My guess is that >90% of the population is not hypermobile and will benefit from yoga. But those who got into yoga decades ago (probably because they were naturally flexible, or made their way there after a gymnastics or ballet career ended) probably have joints that have been used and abused to the limits!
@@mdbarton1979 thanks
It doesn't.
I've deadlifted my way out of chronic back pain. Deadlifts were the final exercise to my full rehabilitation. A powerful core is what will make the pain go away.
That said, deadlift PRs are a diffferent beast. What Stuart failed to mention was moderate load of the exercise. Instead he focused in a different one, which was not exactly what Peter was asking him about.
I don't even agree with that. If you have the capacity sending it at any age is a completely fine thing to do. Sure the risk of injury is there, but we're not fragile car like objects. We're a complex system that responds to stimulus and strives for homeostasis.
Agreed. I think if you're not focused on PRs all the time, moderate varied lifting movements including deadlifts is generally beneficial
@@kreg27 The difference between us and cars is that we can't buy another one when you total the one your have right now.
@@bennymountain1 that's why you train smart and take calculated risks. We are not fragile beings.
@@kreg27 There are millions of people crippled in their 70s and 80s due to the stress they put their joints through when young. The damage is cumulative and real. Heavy lifting takes a toll.
"Middle of the road moderates, not the ones who rusted out, not the ones who've worned out..."
Great advices here. Social medias are not a place to meet the moderates unfortunately...
Social media is perfect for that. If you don't find it It is your problem but it is even worse the "public" monopolies we enjoy in TV and newspapers
Modern influencers with their unique fix-all-program with 1 movement never done in history before
@@schwrz1 yeah or miracle supplement, or impossible morning routine for enlightenment lol
@@souslesbombes Or if you can't do a pistol squat it means you lack severe mobility and you're going to end up in a wheelchair soon
just the gym culture in general-focuses on maximum weight-i'm 62 and just focus on form tbh.
Deadlifting is valuable because you can pretty reasonably expect to encounter scenarios IRL that require a deadlift movement. Just don't go crazy high with the weight or the reps. It's not that complicated.
Hi, I am 81 year old, I started lifting aged 15 so, I have 65 years of experience and NO injury. I still do squats and deadlift every Monday in sets of 12 reps. I had a bladder cancer diagnosed 5 years ago and except for the first 3 months of treatment ( chemo) I haven't stop my routine. According to my onclogist the shape I was in helped a lot in getting in remission. Happy lifting to all.
Pointing towards former world class powerlifters who have issues and how they suck walking uphill with a dollar bill between their butt cheeks to demonize squats and deadlifts is a bit silly.
While I like the conversation I didn’t appreciate how he used people who were likely all on steroids, when he mentioned people at the peak of strength sport, as his anecdotal evidence that deadlifts and squats are bad. People who are pushing their bodies past natural levels of strength and gaining injuries from doing so should not be used as evidence to address natural athletes. I imagine someone like Ed Coan does have a broken body. Up until recently he was one of the lightest guys ever to deadlift 900+. Someone who deadlifts 315 into their 80s isn’t exactly going to have the same problems. I do agree that pushing new one rep maxes probably goes out the window at some point but that doesn’t mean deadlifting stops. It also doesn’t mean that they can’t “walk backwards” and deadlift in the same routine.
Preach!! 👏👏
Ed is still sound
I have seen many natural powerlifters chasing personal records hurt themselves badly by deadlifts as well as bench press
For that reason I stopped powerlifting at 27 and shifted to body building
I once read that Coan himself has stated that if you are not a competitive powerlifter don't do dead lifts
Spot on mate !
The extra strength provided by steroid use allows you to lift heavier weight and then flog the joints out.
It is normally the shoulders that go first. The knees and hip also go from the heavy squats.
Except Stu McGill isn’t using anecdotal evidence when he is doling out this advice. He is just using anecdotal stories to help illustrate an example. His advice is based on 40 years of research on the spine. He is by far the premier spinal expert in the world. His advice isn’t based on a patient he had one time. It’s based on 1000s of experimental hours of spinal loads and stresses. I had two professors who obtained their PhDs under Stu McGill and their work with him was pretty game changing.
Sorry but I call this bullshit, I'm 61 and have been involved in powerlifting and bodybuilding all my adult life. I know 1 powerlifter who has had hip replacements due to damage done when his legs collapsed under a 360kg squat and one bodybuilder who rarely deadlifted and did not squat very heavy. The large number of people who I know who have had hip replacements or are due to have hip replacements have worn hips out doing far less strenuous activities, activities people would wrongly consider safer.
Heavy squats and deadlifts (relative to the person) have helped countless numbers of my clients experience fewer back episodes, especially older clients. They strengthen you systemically. Bones, muscles, tendons, ligaments, joints and connective tissues all adapt and get stronger. They might never deadlift 400lbs or squat 350lbs, but they're grateful for the gift of strength and feel better from getting stronger than they were last week.
Sounds like they're doing them under the watchful eye of a professional, and not pushing personal best thresholds. That mitigates the risks discussed here!
that is just simply bad advice even for younger people. You can do much less injury prone alternatives to these movements
@@droliver injury prone alternatives? What does that even mean? They're basic human movement patterns, incrementally loaded over time to improve strength of the whole system. More people hurt their back picking up their kids than deadlifting. But maybe there less injury prone alternatives to that too. Like get your wife to pick them up.
@@droliver No it is not "simply bad advice" at all. Please elaborate on these magical "less injury prone alternatives"
@@droliverIf one had to choose 2, the squat and deadlift with correct form and with progressive overload are thee most beneficial movements anyone at any age should do for strength, longevity, metabolism, function. Hands down, no question, mic drop, I'm out. It's not even debatable.
Looks like others have already said this but there is a lot of room between doing moderately weighted deadlifts for reps and "personal best" singles as mentioned. I am 64 and for the last few years I have done 220.5 for sets of 10 once a week. Deadlift is one of the only gym exercises that you do in everyday life (picking up furniture, kids, boxes, etc.). In addition if u delete heavier movements in favor of walking hills aren't u going to have some compromise in bone density?
Great point, I'd have to think it would affect bone density.
This video leaves people hanging. Peter and Dr. McGill don’t come to any particular conclusion or offer suggestions for alternative strength training exercises that are great substitutes.
Aren’t deadlifts good for your grip strength? At 62, I do deadlifts, pull ups, and some kind of row on my pull day. I don’t care about PR’s at this point though.
I've always been a squatting fan, not so much for conventional deadlifting, and I've seen way too many injuries over the years! I will however do some light Romanian SLDL, this works well for my hamstrings and helps in cycling strength.
I no longer squat heavy, at 73kg I'd squat 150kg for 10 and drop 190kg for singles.
These days my whole philosophy on training has changed, I train with higher reps, very strict form and quite slow. The bulk of my training is now utilising dumbbells and kettlebells, and calisthenics a few times a week. Yes, at 53 I'm still seeing hypertrophy, albeit I'm not as strong, but given my new training protocol that's understandable.
I feel 30 years of relatively heavy training has built a good foundation. As I'm aging I no longer feel the need to train heavy, just training with weights and supplemented with calisthenics and riding 3x a week appears a good recipe...✌️
Years ago, I worked with a guy that had a gold medal in the Olympics. Not often you run into one of those in life. Rowing. I think he was Romanian? I forget...but what I do remember about him was this:
Saw him occasionally at the gym I was training at.
I was doing squats one day, and him, the cage over, was doing deadlifts.
And, using just around 300, or 325 lbs, forget exactly.....but it was definitely maximal lifting for him.
Next thing you know, I hear a grunt, and I turn sideways to look, & find him flat on his back in HUGE pain.... damn....whatever he pulled, he pulled wrong.
And that was a gold medal, Olympian rowing athlete.
_User Beware!_
@@Bloozguy Very few people appear to be able to deadlift with good form, insufficient warm-ups and cool-downs are all recipes for disaster!
A few years back I went to a friend's funeral who had been a fellow lifter. Present, were lots of lads I used to train with, primarily powerlifters. Some were on sticks, one had crutches, another had had two spinal operations, one had just had a shoulder replacement (I'd never seen one before!). Basically they were pretty much damaged beyond repair, and struggling to get around comfortably!
I hadn't really done a lot of powerlifting, I was mainly into olympic lifting and bodybuilding. I'd also taken regular 1 week breaks from training every 10 weeks. At the age of 38 I took 7 years off training, mainly doing CV. Went back hard at it until I was 48, a few more years off and back into weights at 53.
I guess the point I'm making is, you gotta do it in moderation and take some time off periodically! I was a school boy weightlifter, but I'm so glad I took some time away from hammering myself into the ground!
@@mokotramp Damn.... good stories! I guess I'm lucky in that anytime I hit anything over 250lbs, something broke on me, lol....knees , shoulders... something.
Now @69, I'm still hitting it 'hard' but baby weights compared to real lifters.
But last year at work( I still do!), some guy about 40 said it looks like I work like I'm 27, lol
While that felt good to hear, I sure as hell don't feel 27...but I guess all them years of off/on training has helped some.
I even gained back 2" on my arms last year, and have the videos to prove it.
I'm in decent shape for an old man 69 , but nothing record breaking strong, just....strong enough!... in spite of many issues...psoriatic arthritic knees, 1/2 right biceps, bakers cysts flare ups...old injuries coming back to haunt me..... yet, I soldier on! 💪
This is absolutely the way. at 26 I am so thankful I did not subject myself to the self-destructive lifestyle of ego lifting
@@Bloozguy Fantastic to hear you're still smashing it, and that 2" gain on the arms is bloody great! That balance between rest and training is critical, especially as we grown older! Also be sure to keep up your protein intake, I find 1-1.5gms per kilo of BW works well!
Heavy lifting for a few decades is harsh on the body, it's not something I'd personally advocate. Again, a healthy balance is key. I personally feel the long term effects of powerlifting can be severely debilitating, I've seen it in some of my older friends, some who have lifted at both national and international level.
These days I'll take cardio vascular fitness over the raw power I used to have, years back. ✌️
Attia, the reductionist. Afraid of animal based diets, afraid of dead lifts and squats, afraid of fasting.
He's a joke and an egotistical narcissist
I’ll be 55 in April of ‘24, I have been squatting and deadlifting since I was 15. I still deadlift in the mid 500s and squat in the low 500s. I have ZERO injuries. I have never taken any steroids or hormones…just creatine and protein.
FYI, for my 55th birthday I will DL 555, Squat 455 for 5, Bench 355 and clean and jerk 255(not that difficult but no way I can do 355 anymore).
you're what's wrong with the internet. You're the 55 year old equivalent of the teenager on the internet who comments how he's only 15 but listen's to the Beatles and doesn't understand why the rest of this friends and classmates are not sufficiently sophisticated to understand the Beatles.
@@aristolochene and I have a Masters degree in exercise physiology and 2 strength and conditioning certifications acquired through college accredited programs. But you keep doing whatever it is you were trying to do.
good inspiration, thanks.. please indicate what is your weight?
@@y.g.1313 5’10 240….it happened Tuesday
Im 48. Squats and deadlifts ruin my back. Its risk to reward and whatvyoyr goals are.
Really enjoyed this discussion. At 44 my approach to fitness has evolved over the years. I played football into college and lifting weights was a passion. In my mid 20s I started running marathons. That progressed in 100 mile trail runs. I got bored with running and started cycling to mix it up. Got tired of the hours and hours of cardio and switched back to powerlifting in my late 30s. That lasted a few years and I went from 170lbs to 216lbs. I felt terrible and switched back to a more cardio focused approach.
After years of trial and error I know it’s not a one sided solution. It’s all necessary and beneficial in different ways. Cardio, strength, flexibility, mobility are all equally important. I loved the term sufficient strength. I feel as we age we understand this philosophy. I still have goals and I still aim for greatness it’s just different. I know that a small pinch in my hamstring could mean 10 weeks of no training if I don’t rest, so I rest.
Wisdom like a vo2 max takes time to develop lol
I am a 60 yo orthopedic surgeon that loves deadlifts and squats. I tried to find the journal articles referencing the endplate fractures. Can anybody guide me to this? In addition, assuming there are micro fractures, is it not best to utilize this as a Stress- Adapt’ technique to strengthen spinal bone density?
‘Orthopedic surgeon.’ You’re the 3rd one in this comment section alone. Funny how so many just start popping up like that to try to disprove the experts in the video
Deadlifts are fine, just don't overdue it. Don't pull heavy singles/doubles on the regular.
Right 💪
35-40 pound one kettle bell dead lifts have done wonders for my lower back and core at 54 years old. I do sets on a balance dome, dome side down. I do floor work and dome work 2 times per week-- 3 sets of 10. Also, I have gone to zero drop heels for my training shores and everyday walkers. They do not allow over striding and dragging your leg through the motion-- over-activating the hip flexors and quadriceps. They cut down your stride and make you active the glutes and hamstrings to push through the motion.
4 days in the gym and 2-3 days cycling and McGill's Big 3. Every day has core and lower back enrichment exercises. Last, chin bar work w hangs, swings, and abs work. Up to 2:45 on a dead hangs. I couldn't do 1:00 last January.
Great vid from 2 of the best longevity and functional movement gurus.
The balance dome is massively handicapping your ability to produce force and get strong… do balance work with your bodyweight and lifting on a stable surface to maximise your returns.
@@thefootballpunnedit I do a combo of exercises on different surfaces. That is crystal clear in my post.
I’m mid 60s, and still deadlift max depending on day 225-300 in 10 -8 rep range.
My back etc feels better when I do DL of some kind as I feel it’s a great all body movement that is great at activating glutes.
I don’t DL for ego. I think it’s a great exercise if done with good form Always
I have no hip or knee issues.
Hopefully you never injure a disc. But once it pops out it’s too late
I have injured a disk before.
Not from DLs.
DL not a simple move if done with very good form. I think issue is those who don’t learn good technique and are motivated by ego.
@@billfisher8647 That could only happen under a load the body can't handle. If you're REALLY fragile & weak, you could 'pop' a disk just putting your shoes on.
Load is everything...RPE is everything, correct form is everything.......and all of it is everything when you're a senior citizen. But there's plenty of successful seniors that lift heavy in spite of it all.... just need to be smart about it, and not become a basement UA-cam champ.
Might be the last workout video of your life.
@@Bloozguy THANK YOU!
He mentions that he had someone who deadlifted regularly and had him walk backwards uphill, and the guy was tired. Well no shit 💀 take a body builder and take him to a spin class. He'll find out real quick he doesn't have the aerobic endurance for an hour long spin class. Does this mean he should stop his hypertrophy work? No 😂 it just means that he "could" improve his aerobic capacity if he trained it
@@jhawes8994 Interesting...had bodybuilder buddy that managed a Vic Tanny gym..year ago, (obviously) .now I'm dating myself, lol
So he put a marathon runner through some circuit training and he said the guy puked!
So. You get good at what you train for indeed .
Mr McGill speaks wisdom that many can't grasp.
I've been obsessed with heavy deadlift - not any more.
Split squats, step ups etc make a lot more sense for muscle development and practical strenght even when not taking account injury risk.
Heavy deadlift is meant for people whose spine can handle it and they really deeply care about the goal.
I really like SM, but he has such difficulty staying focused on the question. So many tangeants.....
I tried to listen to the main podcast, but he lost me within a few minutes…
Agree
I feel like every time after PA asks a question, he's thinking "Oh no, Grandpa and his stories. How are we going to edit this down to less than 6 hours?"
And in this case, he didn't really answer the question.
@@BruceDArcus I feel like he kinda/sorta did at the end(?). He doesn't do deadlifts any more because the risks outweigh the benefits, but rather he focuses on functional/practical types of lifting to be able to do the things that are important in life. On the other hand, doing moderate intensity deadlifts instead of high-weight (and high-risk) lifts seems like it would be reasonable. I really wish he'd stay focused so he could have addressed this more thoroughly.
When I was about 19 I did a lot of "body building". I worked up to about 300 pounds for a dead lift when I weighed about 165. I blew out my L1 and L2 disks. I am 74 now and that youthful stupidity changed the course of my life in terms of what I could do physically and the discomfort I had to deal with. Just lift to get into shape for what you need to do.
Can you share more details on how that changed the course of your life?
That’s really not a huge amount for someone 165 and 19. My question would be, did you work up to that gradually or did you foolishly jump into lifting in that range? I’m about 160 and it took me about 2 years to work up to 305 lb for sets of 8. I started with 200 lb and went up bit by bit, never more than I could lift for at least 6 reps. The problem with most people is they go way too fast which doesn’t give tendons, ligament, and even bone, time to adapt. It grows much more slowly than muscle. That’s another reason steroids are very dangerous. It adds the muscles but not the connective tissues at the same rate.
I started lifting weights at 37. I worked my deadlift up to 405 at a body weight of 180 lbs. Never had any back pain.
I've backed off the deadlifts only because I also train jiu jitsu and my body can't recover from both.
Deadlifts can be perfectly safe if they're done properly and recover is emphasized.
Too fast and too often will stop all progress with an injury for sure. Recovery is key. @@scottrc5391
weight that light should not be risky to anyone with OK form. you did not have adequate supervision. my wife deadlifted that much while pregnant and weighing less than that lol, and that is not a joke just a recent fact. Any man without disabilities should be able to get to 405. I do generally agree that for people without competitive goals there is no need to keep pushing past some reasonable strength threshold and that there are safer variations to the deadlift for the lower back. but let's not go blaming an exercise done correctly with moderate weight in teenage years for prolonged dysfunction over a lifetime; that doesn't track.
Also, L1 and L2? so the very top of the lumbar spine, not even the bottom where people normally get deadlift injuries? So you were rounding beyond belief?
It seems like the advice is geared towards powerlifting and those with unrealistic or unsustainable programs. I’m 54 and my current PR is 570 lbs. I want at least 600 or up to 700 before I’m satisfied. I need the big challenge to stay motivated. There are videos of men in their 80s deadlifting 400 to 500 lbs. I’m worried about the messaging in this video that reinforces paradigms about aging.
Is that really the case about yoga for 30 years being likely to be a cause of needing a hip replacement? I haven't heard this before
I'm skeptical
Absolute rubbish. One of the prime factors in maintaining quality of life as we age is retaining functional strength. What could be more functional than the ability to properly pick up something from the floor? I have deadlifted for decades and will continue to do so. I have never had a back injury from deadlifts. Does a person need to PR? No, but there is no reason to discard deadlifts entirely because of that. That being said, I still occasionally PR. Why? Because I have trained sensibly to do so. At 63 years old, I am so glad I wasn’t given this type of advice when I was younger. I intend to be active and strong for the remainder of my years. Functional strength is a big part of that and deadlifts are integral to my training to that end. Finally, I would flip the coin on the hill walking gentleman and suggest that, were the roles reversed, he would be unable to pick up a heavy object from the floor which the powerlifter could certainly do. Don’t want to PR deadlifts? Fine, don’t. But don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
I've worked out my entire life, there was a comment from a retired pro bodybuilder that has always stuck with me and he said he just didn't do heavy deadlifts ever because the risk of injury was too great on that particular heavy lift. It's an interesting comment that has stuck with me, especially as I age. I now do a lot more trap bar deadlifts and split squats than traditional DBs and back squats. I still do those lifts too ,just not as heavy or as often. I do more isolated lifts with the cable machines as well. There are many good ways to build muscle safely.
I'm 63, lift 350-400 weekly. Super fit, lifestyle like my 30s. Did a body composition test and got 99th percentile. Anyone who's not lifting is missing out on a great life. I travel around the world, never get tired, can outdrive almost everyone at the golf course, play ice hockey, strength is everything. The side effects of lifting are more muscle, more strength, stronger bones, better sex, better sleep
Imagine believing picking up 100lbs logs is safer than deadlifting smh
I had the same thought. As Rippetoe says, ‘you don’t hurt your back deadlifting; you hurt your back putting the lawnmower in the back of your pickup truck.’ Or for those of us who live in the northeast, putting that wheel of Brie in the back of our Volvo station wagons.
@499735 everything was making sense till that part. Sure, people shouldn't go balls to the wall on deadlifts, but lifting logs and chopping wood takes an hour at least. 100 lbs x 30- 60 minutes of reps and choping
Stuart is full of BS. Making some bold claims with no actual proof.
I stopped doing deadlifts and squats a while back, no matter what I tried I just always felt stiff and had trouble getting up and down off the floor even at only 41 years old. I feel much better now and much more mobile.
I have the utmost respect for Dr. McGill and the two of you together is the Dream Team of longevity and health. However, strength training, done properly, can also strengthen joints. I have always thought that we can still have the goal of hitting a deadlift PR, even later in life, just not as fast. There are people who want a new PR yesterday. They're going to do max effort work daily with crazy volume on supplemental exercises. That's a recipe for injury. But if someone starts light, gradually increases weight, and does higher reps on supplemental exercises to build joint strength, and is willing to wait a year to get to their goal PR, that's much more sustainable.
Yes, I am sure you are also a known doctor who's done extensive research on this. Surely.
@@exileatsushi7165 and here we go with the credentialism 🙄
Just because someone doesn’t have “credentials” or the proper amount of education does not make them stupid. But, you on the other hand… I bet you still believe everything Dr. Fauci has told you about CO VID because he has Dr. in front of his name.
@@exileatsushi7165 That's an argument from authority, or in other words a fallacy. What Mike says actually perfectly tracks the current scientific literature on the subject and decades of empirical data.
Why are you coming in so toxic? Strength training does not just increase strength and muscle mass, but also strengthens joints and bones, if done right.
A person could do dumbbell floor presses, hip belt squats and reverse hyperextensions and get a large portion of the strength benefits of powerlifting, but with a much lower risk of injury than traditional powerlifting exercises.
You can do squats and deadlifts as you age, but people must learn to listen to their bodies. Don't think you can continue lifting like you are 16 years old. I'm 57 years old and a personal trainer. My last deadlift from my workout booklet was 380 pounds a few years back. Now, I deadlift 180 pounds. I believe the basic weight the Marine and firefighters train at. They say the average weight of a human male. I used to do 300 pounds for squats, but I do 90 to 180 pounds. It depends on how I feel that day because I listen to my body. Sometimes, I go straight to the Smith machine, throw 50 pounds on it, and do 50 or more reps. You still can get a good workout doing less weight and more reps and still grow and maintain muscles. Don't be that OLD GUY in the gym who wants to compete with the younger guys...trying to live those glory days again. Also, you don't want to be like Ron Coleman. This is a perfect example of a person who ignored what his body was telling him. The body is not designed to keep taking heavy loads on its joints; over time, your body WILL break down and age you. Trust me, I have seen this for over 30 years. Nothing has changed but the people's faces.
As i've gotten older i've really focused on the risk to reward ratio with exercises. I quit barbell deadlifts and squats and now just do trap bar deadlifts from a deficit once every 2 weeks which allows me to easily maintain my strength and even make slow, steady progress if i want to.
I also remember Dan John talking about a lot of old timers doing what they called 'the health lift' which was a deadlift done from mid thigh to strengthen the body from a safer position.
It's called a rack pull
Trap bar made all the difference for me!
Agreed, trap bar deadlifts once a week
Single Leg Squat/Deadlift variations are a much lower load on the back and also add a balance stimulus. Way better for the long run IMO. I was heavily influenced by Michael Boyle’s Functional Training style
I just turned 61 - I do a three week cycle: deadlift, usually 275-285, 1 set of five, good morning - 145, three sets of 5, and rack lift - 365, 1 set of 5 - one per week and add some assistance: lat pull downs, kettle bell swings - etc. I squat twice a week - my heavy box squat days - three sets of five - I did 200 today and on Friday I'll do ATG pause squats for three a single on the highest weight - maybe 225...
Groovy
I appreciate his input, but there's a reason a lot of research details the benefits of loading the axial skeleton (directly w/ squats or indirectly with deadlifts). Squats and hip hinges are essential in everyday life--sitting down and standing up from a seated position; moving & lifting furniture or items (such as a bag of dog food or wood); bending over to pick up an item. Forget about what powerlifters are doing and hitting close to 1RM. Focus on endurance, hypertrophy, strength, and maintenance (67-85%). Quality exercise prescription is key. Progressive overload, active rest, variation, blah blah blah...
I don't understand the hill example. Training deadlifts and expecting someone to do a goofy walk backwards up a hill is not a specific adaptation to imposed demand. It's important to train in different ways for different reasons. Incorporate balance work or a mixed kinetic chain exercise, like a walking lunge (forward and backward).
Thank you for sharing the video! Cheers!
there's a lot of nuance in deadlifting. personally my lower back pain stopped since i started deadlifting. why should i stop? i'm not lifting crazy amounts of weight
Me too!!!!!!!!
things break loose
age means ever longer recovery
-- if ever -- from injury so find ways
to do the LEAST YOU CAN rather
than the 20s most-you-can
window which closes
Wonderful discussion regarding deadlifts and setting long term spinal goals for life. Live for longevity. Outlive
Stuart with all due respect, but you come off as a complete clown, talking about how Ed Coan who at 220 pounds lifted 900 pounds when talking about the average person performing a 1RM attempt. A benchpress specialist benching 700 pounds will feel their bones in their arms contract when executing a 1 RM. A normal guy benching around 225-315 will not have that problem. At all. It's like saying you shouldn't do cardio because you saw one top athlete collapse at the finish line after a marathon. It's complete buffoonery.
A 200 pound man is never ever going to get "micro fractures" in their bones deadlifting 400-500 pounds. Because our bones are strong enough to handle that weight. You might get them at 900 pounds. But the 50 year old guy he talks about as an example ain't getting there, no matter how much gear they take.
Now, if you are too weak to lift anything on the deadlift, you don't need to start deadlifting. You can start doing back extentions instead, then slowly transition over to deadlifting or hell, even just Romanian deadlifts (which inherently will use lower weights than your conventional deadlift). Or you can do any other lift, you don't _need_ to deadlift at all if you don't want to. But they are not dangerous at all.
I have to push back a bit on this segment. I have bulging discs in L-2/3, injury resulted from unstable sacrum which I then suffered with low back instability and pain for almost 20 years. I am now in my 60's and have virtually no back issues. Why? Instead of guarding my low back to prevent injury, I started addressing ways to improve stability and strength I had lost via atrophy, and tightness in my hips, legs, low back by guarding the area. Squats and Deadlifts became key elements in my recovery, along with flexibility and muscle balance in my lower body. Squats and deadlifts don't have to be performed with heavy weights for benefit. Slow down, less weight, maintain intensity and increase duration of a rep to get benefits without the risk of heavier loads. Pause at the bottom of a squat and you cannot lift as much weight. For those two exercises form is EVERYTHING. But if done properly, they yield huge benefits.
You're not pushing back really. Stuart was clear that improving stability and muscle activation etc is vital. He said doing heavy lifts for years is a bad idea. You're talking about doing lighter lifting.
@@RaveyDaveyDoing heavy weights for years is bad if you are not allowing proper recovery time. Obviously if you are deadlifting 600lbs you should be doing mobility etc not just solely lifting as heavy as possible.
Confusing strength training with powerlifting competitions is like confusing being a jogger with being a competitive marathon runner, getting a university education with getting a PhD and postdoctoral position, or getting a job with becoming a 16 hour a day CEO of a large company.
There are things which we do to improve our everyday lives. And then there are things which we do to achieve an outstanding level of excellence, and which will necessarily involve sacrificing our physical, mental and social health. This video demonstrates a complete failure to distinguish between these.
Each year Australia has 16,200 people getting knee replacements due to obesity, 29,900 hip replacements, and 4,400 amputations due to type II diabetes. There are so few surgeries associated with lifting that there are not actually any statistics on it, only a few individual case studies.
"How often do you see an old powerlifter?" Superheavyweights, never. But we're not all 165kg guys. This video has commentary which is wilfully obtuse and as clickbaity as putting a thumbnail of a woman with fake breasts in it. Disappointing.
Greysteel rebuttal of this hilarious podcast is outstanding.
Classic weight-trainer commenters here LOL. Here we have one of THE foremost spinal experts on the planet saying don't do years of heavy deadlifting, it's not good for your spine and all they grab onto are anecdotes "I used to have the worst back ever and then I deadlifted and now I don't and I'm 104 so all that guy's science, experience and expertise are worthless.
You just can't tell some people anything if they don't wanna hear it. lifting is a great thing to do your whole life. It builds muscles, tendons and can even help with some soft tissue health. Done right it can maintain health movement patterns. But heavy lifting, especially heavy squats and deads don't just do that, they also cause stress and damage to your disks, your cartilege, your bone plates, your joints etc. And for most people that is a very bad thing. Sure some get away with it but you can't know if you're gonna be in that set until it's too late.
Never did straight bar deadlifts before but recently started doing them for 2 sets of 5 (NOT at high RPE) once every 4 days along with legs. Probably my favourite exercise now.
And let no one talk you out of it.
Would love to hear Stuart actually answering the question being made. Peter asks about his take on moderate deadlifts vs alternative exercises, and Stuart answers by giving anecdotes of powerlifters and other people who have damaged their spine doing anything but moderate deadlifting, and then recommends not to do deadlifts. He doesn’t mention the tons of people who have cured their back pain and toughened their spine by deadlifting in the right manner.
FINALLY the concept of sufficient. Thank you so much. I have great fitness with what I regard as moderate levels of exercise. (Run 2-3 x, strength 2x plus 1x yoga per week ) I work hard enough but not too hard and now I see that is a good thing not lazy :)
Yup sounds about right. Average influencer nowadays who says he trains 6x strength for 2 hours and an average of 20,000 daily steps.
I honestly think it’s a silly term. For bondi1240, you’re very active, but what defines sufficient.? I’m an old guy, strength train 3-4 times a week and push myself, not for PR’s, but for an increase in strength. I believe if you don’t push yourself, you’ll decline in older years. Sufficient compared to what? I really don’t like the term, particularly for people new to fitness. I see older people in the gym, basically going through the motions, getting no real benefit, but I’m sure they think it’s sufficient. On observation only, it appears to me that they are breaking down and then sufficient will just decline over time. At any level, you need to constantly put in hard effort for results. Sufficient sounds like just showing up.
VO2 max and grip strength are correlated with longevity but in different ways.
Improving VO2 max could possibly improve longevity because you will be able to get oxygen to different parts of the body faster. Improving grip strength probably isn't going to do much of anything.
Grip strength without grip training is probably a more reliable predictor of longevity: sturdiness, reliance to disease and stress, the ability to repair DNA damage, etc. In another words, it's a marker of the genes for longevity.
I was prescribed deadlifts when I visited a physio regarding back pain. They worked a treat!
Love deadlifts and squats now. I used to hate deadlifts for fear or hurting my lower back. I think as long as you use proper form they belong in your routine , even at higher weights.
Plenty of exercises become dangerous if performed with bad form.
Ah.... but the devil's in the details.... _correct_ form.
It takes lots of experience to NOT let your form breakdown while grinding out reps.
I recall decades ago, doing 5 sets of 10 reps with just 200lbs.....squats.
First 4 sets , no issues. Set 5 had me grinding out the last couple of reps, and determined to make all 50 reps, had me lose concentration, just a bit on the last 2 reps...and bang!
Tweaked the low back enough to put me out for a couple of weeks....but was it worth getting out those 50 reps? What if that weight had been 3 or 400lbs? or more?
At the age I'm at now (69), something like that _could_ be a life altering 'tweak'.
_USER BEWARE!_
@@Bloozguy you could make that argument for almost any exercise though. Not just strength training , all forms of cardio , sports etc.
You’re right though , the devil is in the details , and there’s a lot more nuance to discuss. For instance if deadlifts are one your favourite exercises that keep you coming back to the gym and staying consistent , then forgoing them for fear of injury may make you weaker in the long term and this more prone to injury.
What we shouldn’t be doing is saying it should be excluded from a program. If you want to train using other exercises than that’s great , but blanket statements regarding the risk/reward ratio or whatver don’t help. To me it’s similar to telling people to exclude entire food groups. No sense in reducing the opportunity set of exercises available to everyone.
@@739jep Theoretically speaking, I'm all for deads & squats.... it's just that they don't serve me very well at this stage, although now I'm FINALLY able to get into a half decent sumo deadlift position and am doing those 1/week and RDL/Good Morning/45 hypers another day.
Whatever keep you injury free, soldier on I say!
@@739jep _you could make that argument for almost any exercise though_
Well, sure.. almost anything you do is risky. I certainly can't run at all, due my psoriatic arthritic knees and bakers cysts flare ups, so THAT, is high risk for me....but I can crank out reps with 200 lbs on belt squats and single leg reverse squats with 115 lbs without issue(mostly). Go figure.
I know guys my age that have a tough time getting up out of a chair, lol.
But clearly, there _are_ higher risk exercises. That would be squats & deads. The more joints used, the riskier it becomes.
Like, bicep curls are pretty tame compared to conventional deadlifts.
Pushups less risky than bench presses. etc.
@@Bloozguy sure but they have additional benefits as well. And despite being riskier , that risk can be mitigated and the benefits still enjoyed.
A quick google seems to suggest that the most dangerous pieces of equipment the gym are in fact the treadmill , medicine balls , the box jump platform, pull up bars and resistance bands - rather than barbells. Don’t know how much stock to put into that , but it’s surely a lot more nuanced than ‘more joints = more risk’ .
Causes of injury that are blind to exercise selection include inadequate warm ups , inadequate recovery time , use of PEDs , poor technique and going for PRs too frequently. None of these is unique to deadlifts or squats.
Now I understand , the deadlift might not
be right for you , but you’re one person. Lots of people do really well with deadlifts , and people who are new to lifting shouldn’t be scared into not trying it.
I was listening until he used Ed Coan as an example. Ed was using a squat suit (which allowed a heavier weight than he could squat without and I am sure overloaded his spine), was EXTREMELY genetically gifted for power, was using anabolics, so I am sure he got some microfractures from a limit Deadlift/squat...largely because thanks to being a genetic freak on steroids he was able to progress his capabilities beyond what his meat suit could tolerate on max efforts. Really bad example to use, though using competitive (especially equipped) power lifting to try to make a point about deadlifting or squatting was sort of asinine.
I can agree that if you towards the end of your genetic potential there is a greater risk of injury from large loads that slide "out of the groove" while lifting but I think acting as if this is common because of micro fractures from limit deadlifts is stretching reality.
It’s worth listening to the whole podcast for context on this topic
Yeah, the main context here is that Stuart runs a clinic that treats people with severe back pain. Deadlifts are likely okay if done in moderation with moderate loads (I'm sure he'd say the same thing) and the person is not already dealing with back issues as the result of training. Worth noting that he has a bench in the background as well.
This is like answering "Is it ok to drink beer?" with an anecdote of an alcoholic or binge drinker.
This interview answered "Should you go for PRs on deadlifts?" No. Obviously no. Would have preferred an answer or a deadlift approach that employs progressive overload and caps out at a certain body weight to lifted weight ratio.
When people reach 70 years old they will definitely have chronic pain no matter their lifestyle when they were younger , so why not be strong ? I m never gonna quit lifting.
Deadlifts n squats are phenomenal exercises. Dnt need heavy weight to be effective, they're not just for strength they're amazing for mobility too.
Same as any exercise tho, poor form guarantees injury.
Everyone should be doing deadlifts and squats.
No
@@MikeRepluk yes
@@MikeRepluk Yes
I’ve provided anesthesia for literally thousands of joint replacements. Believe me when I say that orthopedic surgeons would starve to death if they were replacing the hips of yogis and deadlifters.
Those are simply not in our patient population. We mostly see sedentary, morbidly obese or obese patients with no athletic experience OR septuagenarians and octogenarians.
I think Stuart suffers from selection bias a he has the reputation as the guy who can help lifters, so that is who seeks him out.
It is amazing how strong you can get by being consistent without trying to set PRs.
I lean towards Dr. Attia's mindset of lifting based on how the body is feeling.
As a strength coach for 25 years it frustrates me that there is an increasing amount of nonsense that is being talked about on UA-cam. There is no reason for stopping deadlifts or squats- but you change the loads and vary the way we lift and squat. There is hundreds of different variations of squats and deadlifts that exist without the use of a barbell. When i speak with doctors many of them only know of deadlifts or squats being performed with a barbell. Everything you are talking about is a Functional approach to Health and Performance- We as humans should pursue various movements in 3D with various loads, at various speeds over various durations and utilize various tools. Variability is Specificity friends.
Imho we commit a huge mistake when judging deadlifts. We often say that "we should replace them, because it has a bigger injury risk than all these exercises that you can also do which are less risky". The thing is: Is the cumulative risk of performing aaaaall of those exercises to make up for the not performed deadlift actually less than the risk of performing the deadlift itself? Because sure, you can hurt your spine doing DLs, but you can also hurt it by doing back hyperextensions, kettlebell swings or whatever; you can hurt your biceps, but you can also hurt it by doing bicep curls; you can hurt your traps, but you can also hurt it by doing shrugs.
All exercises pose a risk and the deadlift simply has a higher risk because it trains almost every muscle at once. Doesn't mean that the risk of doing the deadlift is actually worse than the cumulative risk of all the exercises you're doing to substitute it. If I were to bet on something, I'd actually say the deadlift is safer. I'm not even doubting, I'm pretty sure that the "injury risk per muscle fiber stimulated" is much lower. You can hurt your spine, but if you have good form, use a belt, warm-up and don't often go for PRs it's actually pretty difficult to fuck it up. Plus it's the most "functional" (hate that word, but you get me) exercise on the planet, it trains literally everything with a movement pattern that you WANT to be good at when you're older.
A good performed DL will train your spinal erectors, which will actually help your spine and not worsen it. This sudden fear for the DL is making many peoples' backs and legs worse than they were, which doesn't help them in the long run. Also makes them weaker in the most important movement to be strong at. Why not at least train it with a lighter weight instead of abandoning the exercise?
Idk man, I'm definitely not substituting it anytime soon. That exercise alone is responsible for my back exploding in terms of progress.
This has been precisely my experience. I think this guy's message/anecdote is very misleading and feeds the "deadlifting will break your back" fears and myths
Always hated DL's as a young man. Now at 66, I do ATG goblet squats to a 6 inch depth. I don't do back squats as the risk of serious injury is far too high and honestly ATG goblets have rebuilt me: ua-cam.com/video/0eVu2hr4qk0/v-deo.htmlsi=NRWoUvaZ-JN8S8FI
how about Hex Bar dead-lifts, it takes load of the lower back ?
It doesnt
In my experience it does. Because back angle is more vertical for a hex bar DL than conventional DL. Moment arm is shorter and better alignment of center of effort and center of mass. Having said that, I still do both, but I will only pull really heavy with a hex bar. 67 years old and I have had a bad back my entire adult life. Deadlifting seems to have helped with that a great deal.
Plus a Hex bars grip part is a little higher than a regular Olympic bar so your lower back is less involved.
I think one should start with a regular bar and after a few years and advancing age transition to a Hex bar .
@@zibtihaj3213 Unless you're competing in an event that requires barbell deadlifts i'd say stick with the trap bar deadlift for the safer position it puts you in.
Hex bar is the same as trap bar … so yeah I agree
I’d love for you to answer this question for sports more generally. From basketball to BJJ
i stopped all deadlift or squat and replaced it for dumbel and kettlebel swings, and my life changed. no injuries, no knee pain. and i am only 35 years old. i cant imagine squatting at age 60 / 70 / 80 without getting injured. i play safe
Great decision. You want to be fit, strong and healthy for the duration. Look at Ronnie Coleman at 60. He was a beast with his heavy workouts but now he cannot walk unassisted.
Well, using world class powerlifters as an example is not very useful. Most people will never reach comparable level of strength so it's nothing sort of s surprising finding that at the peak of the sport you have long term health damage. .. but for most people 99.999 % .. the stronger you get the better.
What about using the hex bar instead?
I use the hex bar (trap bar) all the time as it feels so much safer than a barbell. I would love to hear some proper discussion on this though. I sort of get into a position where I'm doing much more of a squat action than a deadlift, which suits me.
So I went to my Dr last week and I said, “Dr I’m 50 and I really enjoy rock climbing a few days a week at my local gym, but on some days my hands and wrists feel a bit more sore these last few years. I want to learn about risk to my joints as I get older.” My Dr explained that he had clients that liked to free solo in the alps with only a parachute to protect them in a fall and that sometimes it results in death and that rock climbing is in fact very risky.
I "was" one of those stupid kids trying to do heavy(for me weighing 135 lbs) lifts at age 11 to 21. I was doing full squats ( legs parallel to the floor) with 300 lbs. And half squats (legs 45 ° to the floor) with 600 lbs. Now at age 75 I have never had any aches or pains. Maybe I gave myself a good foundation in life.
Sure you did 600lbs lol
Half squats are literally pointless, if you can only go parallel with squats the best progressive overload is depth, or increasing range of motion, not load with less range of motion.
@@aethylwulfeiii6502 Natural Gallant Bodybuilding.... breaks all the rules... has a better physique than most of the UA-camrs Form Police
Unless its a Romanian deadlift, I find they are too dangerous. Typical deadlifts develop strength through too limited of a range of motion. Seated cable good mornings and single leg Romanian deadlifts develop that strength through length which many of us lack.
Hello. I can help explain the Yoga remark. So, there's an adaptation work to achieve for those who are new to Yoga and also to consider that too much emphasis on flexiblity at the end range of the joints may cause damage such as laxity of the ligaments in some practitioners. That being said a conscious practice of Yoga that is balanced and doesn't rely solely on too much passive stretching (stretch reflex disruption) will help prevent what Dr. Stuart is mentioning. Even he has worked with Yoga teachers to adapt the more traditional Yoga practice and create safe protocols. Keep in mind that flexibility is important to train and improve if there's strength to control it and vice-versa. One requires mobility to warm up and lube the joints, stability of the deeper muscles, strength, equilibrium, breathing education and flexiblity along with somatic exercises and full body awareness. A balance practice equals an immortal practice. More is not better. Most times less is better and this is something that not fully understood in the Yoga community. All people have different anatomies so one could not expect to follow a yogic model from India and get health benefits.
Thank you for the insight!
@@bassreaper5539 Thank you for taking the time!
Try Travis Elliot yoga sessions Very well balanced 👌🏾. He includes power (cardio), strength and passive (yin)
I suggets we can still do deadlifts for weights that we are capable of, dont over do and let your body recover at an ample time...
I found that doing unilateral movements with dumbbells is the way to go to limit loads on spine while getting all the great effects of those lifts.
Wut? Stability, core strength, grip strength are all accomplished by deadlifts. It’s an essential exercise and learning to do them properly is a worthwhile addition to anyone’s routine. We never stop picking up objects from the floor and want to keep that valuable tool for as long as possible. No other movement has such a profound effect on day-to-day activity. Obviously one rep maxes aren’t recommended but that goes for any exercise.
I’ve been doing them for years and never been injured. All comes down to using a weight that is safe for your ability, I think, and staying on top of your fatigue. I never push to 100% intensity on these lifts. My back feels great. Extremely sturdy.
Curious how long and are you still increasing your weight?
@@bullfrog6926 5+ years. I’m mostly plateued at “upper intermediate”/“low advanced” but still add a few pounds here and there depending on diet.
Same here, been deadlifting 13 years. Only had one minor injury that quickly healed and wasnt spine related. Started with around 110 lbs and now up to 410 lbs and still making strength gains.
I cal bullshit on yoga practitioners needing more hip replacements. Also, why are leg exercises being touted as a replacement for deadlift, a back exercise lol.
I've recently started deadlifts and squats. I've always had back issues, and wanted to work towards improving my lower back strength. I have to say, I've enjoyed the last couple of months of performing these exercises a couple of times a week. I am no longer a young man, so like the idea of sufficient strength, as opposed to the 'beast mode' approach of younger me.
If I feel off, I substitute these two exercises with Bulgarian squats, single leg hinges, or dumbbell step-ups.
You could use front squats and goblet squats and pull ups as alternatives instead of placing a heavy load on your back as well.
Thank you for your advice. I often perform goblet squats with a kettle bell or dumbbell as a warm-up, and find it beneficial. I always do pull-ups, or pull downs, as well as static hangs; great for the upper back and grip strength, but don't feel any significant lower back activation performing these exercises.
I've swapped out back squats for a home made belt squat set up. The quads never felt better or stronger doing these. All depends on your setup. I got a video or 2 about it. Hits the quads, not the discs!
This sounds like fear mongering. The deadlift isn’t a dangerous movement if loaded and progressed properly. In fact, the deadlift is a great movement for loading the posterior chain (glutes, hamstrings, spinal erectors). The problem is that people lift with their egos and think they can do 3 sets of heavy deadlifts and make 50-90 lb incremental jumps. Not everyone wants to be a professional powerlifter pushing the body to the absolute movement with the help of drugs
2 brilliant Canadians in conversation -- love this.
who both live in the USA
@@vincecapri1They got it! I'm Canadian and lives in US. Done with that libtards BS and 60% taxes
One of which is a nutjob who'll never find any peace.
I understand what’s being said, but let’s be real. Most lifters do adjust how they lift as they age. Heavy deadlifts and squats are unbeatable for overall body strength. And everyone agrees that strength is good. What’s “heavy” for one person may not be for another. Most people won’t train like professional powerlifters and risk these injuries. I hate when an entire exercise is deemed dangerous or risky and scares people from pushing themselves and enjoying the benefits.
I'll be 73 in a couple of months, and have strength trained for eight years. For deadlifts, since moving to a trap bar, I've tolerated the exercise very well. It has been a good while since I tried for a pr, but did lift 400# a couple of years ago. The squat is also part of my regimen. For both exercises, instead of working in the 3-5 rep range, I work in the 7-9 rep range. That is more forgiving, and if you don't have it one day, just stop a rep of two sooner. Both movements are so transferable to everyday life, it makes sense to me to maintain the strength to do them. Regarding grip strength as a marker, I think there are likely several others, that would be as predictive. Measuring grip strength is very easy to do in a doctor's office. I suspect how many pull-ups a person can do would also correlate with longevity.
as you get older it's not only muscle that goes away. it is also bone density. so lifting sufficiently heavy is essential !!
I only trap bar deadlift/squat now & feel the benefits of both minus the risks of both the standard deadlift & squat.
Trap bar squat?
Just lift correctly. 505 lb and growing with zero injuries.
I started doing squats and deadlifts again after herniating my disc doing squats 15 yrs ago.
Smart choice 😂
Trap bar deadlifts are the safe way to deadlift… unless ur competing conventional deads are not worth the risk