I worked at the biggest mail order performance company (guess who ) years ago when the "Spritfire" plugs came out. The gave us all a set of our choice. I thought a good test would be in my boat, which had a 4.3 Mercruiser engine. The performed so bad, I had to change out the plugs in the middle of the lake-and the engine had a pretty powerful ignition.
Back in the 80's I used to run some, for the time, pretty tough Cleveland street motors. Using different twin point distributors and various coils, I was never able to get the idle speed down under 1150 rpm. I purchased an Accel Laser II CDI ignition system and all of a sudden the idle speed was 750 rpm, no problem at all, sweet as a nut. I knew what the problem was, the required amount of fuel in the cylinders at low rpm, along with almost no atomisation, was drowning the plugs. These motors never had more than about 4 1/2" Hg at idle, so the airflow in the manifold was chaotic due to horrendous valve overlap, resulting in the fuel falling out of suspension. Top end hp didn't seem to change much, but the midrange drive ability did. What I learned out of this was that once you have enough spark, having more doesn't give much if any real benefit, and full throttle dyno testing doesn't always show the full story. In my case, the greatest gains were at less than full throttle operation, exactly where we don't dyno test. The less than 50% throttle performance was so greatly improved it was almost unbelievable. That said, I have no doubt that other brands of similar ignition systems would have also provided great benefit. Incidentally, I also used Nippon Denso spark plugs as I found they gave me a much wider heat window, allowing me to run a single heat range for street and race. Excellent video David, very much looking forward to the next instalment. Regards Greg
Absolutely correct.... On a side note, back in the day when I was a kid, the very first time I installed an MSD 6-AL on a healthy big block, I had to retard my initial ignition timing a few degrees, because with the better ignition the engine kicked back against the starter and it wouldn't roll over. Nothing changed with the timing when I installed the MSD system, I never pulled the distributor or loosened the bolt for it, the MSD ignition just had that much more fire power than my stock ignition did and it lit the cylinders off much more efficiently. The motor still liked the same amount of total timing that it had before, but it DEFINITELY wanted less initial timing after the MSD install.
Thank you David. I’m in U.K. and bought some of your tuning books some long years ago and they live on a shelf next to my bed. I regard them as gospel because unlike many others you work as a scientist rather than as a businessman. Btw, as the father of a 25 year old daughter who has struggled at times I was glad to donate to your chosen charity.
The Mopar Prestolite transistor ignition was extremely light duty on the points, concerning amperage draw . Jenkins might have used the box on Chevys for a dozen plus years after two years of Hemis . The Mallory 102-X points would go way beyond any RPM seen in the car . Z-28 , and or Corvette distributor cams, the Z-28 cam was special . The one we tried from Calee was junk, because of terrible concentricty, maybe 3 or 4 degrees out of even 90° .
YES! Those "Solid Lifter Chevy" distributor cams had longer dwell times and smoother lobes for high RPM's and those cars would have bad degredation of ignition points sets back in the day....Chevy thought a lot about what they were doing....Didn't put a chickeshit 6500 RPM ignition limiter on their motors like Ford did with their solid lifter Musclecar motors.
Been my experience that with stock stuff, use the exact OE plug called out on the hood sticker, manual, warning sticker on the motor, whatever, just find out and use that, or at least match the construction style and heat range. Last time I tried outsmarting the engineers I put some nice platinum fine wire Bosch plugs in a 4.0 jeep that called for some boring copper champion plug, it was idling funny again in a few months, half the plugs had the fine wire melted/blasted off (mild detonation?). Put a set of the hood sticker plugs in it and no trouble until it shattered the no 6 piston as they're known to do.
Jeep 4.0 engines in particular are finicky about the plugs. They’ll act up on anything other than standard copper. It happened with my engine, and I’ve read many accounts of the same thing with others. I wish I knew why those 4.0 engines do that.
Hi David, I used to work at Simola's Race Engines in about 1980. If you know them, they did a lot of Formula Ford Kent engines. And were competitive at it. When Sports 2000 started getting popular, we worked on one of them to get started but, like any starting project, they had trouble getting it above 110 horsepower. The same as the pushrod Kent. I thought that was strange give that it should have a better head design. Well, they did not at the time put much R&D into it. Of course, Sports 2000 had many restrictions just like Formula Ford, but I still thought the 2 liter Pinto engine had more potential. At the time Formula Ford and Cosworth BDA's were their bread and butter and perhaps they didn't know if they should put much effort into these Sports 2000 engines. It is a shame. They were so plentiful. I looked up your 2 liter ohc Ford book for sale online. It looks like there is still some money to be made on them. It seems to be going for $75 or more dollars if you can get your hands on it. Funny that all these years later there is still interest in these motors and your tuning/modifications book.
You are Einstein you are a genius you're my teacher you're my god-given to information on engines you're really helping me out so much I'm tooling around with GY6 engines on the Chinese scooters thank you so much Steve from Annapolis Maryland
A couple of caveats about extended tip spark plugs. Some brands extend them more than others, this can be a problem with engines that run domed pistons and/or vertical plug positions as one brand may be fine - the builder DID check, didn't (s)he? - and if you're lucky it will just close them up - if you're unlucky it may damage the piston and even break up the spark plug tip, dumping debris into the chamber. From that, you can gather that if replacing a standard OEM recessed tip with an extended tip one really needs to know if there's clearance.
Actually, the points are bouncing on closure even at idle regardless of spring stiffness. There is no damping mechanism with points so they naturally bounce even with a well thought out distributor cam profile. Bounce does no harm with the Kettering system unless the bounce on closure adversely shortens the dwell period which can happen at higher rpm. When things really go to hell in a hand basket (IE untimed sparks and total misfires) is when the points start to float (same phenomenon as valve float). If the float is bad enough, the moving arm of the points can actually break. Points float usually occurs well past the normal redline but it could happen at lower rpm with poorly made points having a weak spring.
The ignition system can be 100kV but what voltage it will spark is dictated by the gaps (spar plug in series with Kettering gap, inside the distributor). 30kV can jump a centimeter at sea level theoretically, and can be considered a hot ignition system I guess.
Great Kettering explanation. I remember them, Sparkrite, Pirranah, Lumenition. CDI (fast rise time) vs Transistor Assisted (spark duration), and Multispark Systems. Though the system can generate 50,000 volts, the spark will occur at the voltage needed to jump the gap(influenced by mixture consistency, swirl, temp, and gap) at a much lower voltage aprox10KV if mem serves..
Yes, remember the piranha and lamination guys back when running 2l Ford in budget class street sedans in Aus. Made similar to your electrode mod used points and raised voltage to coil to run. Worked and won championship 2 yrs against bigger budget systems who all scoffed at our methods. Car was sold and new buyers fitted electronic systems and changed everything on dubious advice and car never won anything again.
The most interesting plugs I've worked with are the Bosch +4's. They don't seem to have any real advantage in a wedge head but in a 4 valve with centrally located plug they do offer some light throttle benefits. Besides having 4 ground electrodes to lengthen their service intervals, if you look at the ceramic you can easily see the spark path carbon trails going to the ground electrodes being they fire sideways from the fine wire center electrode. What was really interesting is on a well worn plug it's obvious that one electrode was getting most of the sparks...showing a fair amount of erosion, while the other three had seen some activity but nothing like that one really worn one. This made the question of why would the spark choose that one electrode most of the time? They're all the same material and close to the exact same distance...so there's something else happening here and I believe it's because of the swirling mixture making that one electrode the most conductive at the instant of ignition. That conductivity is no doubt temperature related as you mentioned but I also think the amount of fuel molecules that happen to be physically in the gap contribute to this extra conductivity and the spark goes where it can the easiest. The tests I did were in an old KIA Rio5 w/1.6L automatic and a nearby steady grade that's about a mile long. Begin the pull at 60 mph (2400 rpm) and hold 5" H2O on the vacuum gauge for the entire run. Swapped the stock plugs, Iridium NGK's and the Bosch +4's several times with runs inbetween ...all told about 16 runs up this grade and every time (all done within 2 hours) the +4's made it to the top holding more speed. The Iridium's were a couple mph's better than the stock plugs and the +4's another several mph's better than the Iridium's and 5+mph better than the stock plugs. I do doubt that WOT is much affected but at light throttle the +4's do offer a performance and mpg benefit in that engine. Good work and video as always David. Thanks!
For all of the opinions people had about BP+4's (emissions! (shake fist) gimmick! sold at K-Mart!) we tested them on the dyno and for the VW 1.8L 8V motor, we never found a better plug.
I had a 3-cyl. Geo Metro that gave me 41 mpg for my daily driving. P installed Bosch Platinum +4 plugs and the mileage went up 14 percent to about 47. On weeks when I avoided red lights I would get 50 mpg. Of course my son got his drivers license and wanted to show me how to accelerate. And then he showed me how to stuff it into an embankment beside the road.
When I was younger. In Mi. Would go into Magnacor and pick up wire sets I ordered in quantity. Sometimes custom sets. Always was intrigued by the shelves of competitors ignition products they bought and tested. Enjoyed when I was shown them on the test machines.
@@hotrodray6802 that's true, but when you're driving your baling wire special with a bad striker plate in the distributor if the points close you gotta do something.
As a normal gearhead and motorcycle enthusiast of long standing, now building engines for bicycles, even miniscule gains can be quite noticeable when dealing with small volume engines and especially two strokes. I found that NGK would trump most of the rest, providing good ignition when cold and reliable burn through in heavy oil mix motors. Never satisfied and always hoping, I started modifying the plug electrodes in a manner similar to your "holey electrode" example. I started with a four electrode marine type plug and cupped the center electrode. Knowing that sparks prefer a sharp corner or point, I cut a negative radius in the inward face of each of the four outer prongs, leaving them sharp at the top and bottom. A swipe or two with a fine mill bastard file across the sides and top of each gave them a perfect multiplicity of surfaces with which the cupped center could interact. The lighting off of the charge by the centered plug, whether swirling or still, had been a tad iffy to ignite due to a broad squish band and a domed piston, necessitating as short a plug as possible or having to give away much wanted compression. This ceased to be an issue, which I had tried previously tried to rectify by grooving the underside of the shell electrode and "aiming" such resulting 'jet' in differing directions by means of washer thickness. The marine plug and 8mm plug wires with copper cores solved the problem. A copper washer raised the plug to just beneath the head, allowing for a thinner head gasket leaving the space between the porcelain and the steel to distribute any flame jet, as was, I suppose, it's original intended usage. Thank you for a fine video with helpful and hard earned knowledge that might allow us to stand on the shoulders of your giant experiences.
Years ago I would cut the ground electrode back to even with the edge of the center electrode to help expose the spark to the fuel on my 2 stroke dirt bike. It seemed to work pretty well. Seemed to have a little more power.
Denso TT. I was a skeptic but WOW. If you have an engine that fowls the plugs, these plugs stay burned off really well. They have small electrodes at both ends so it forces the spark to happen there and at a high temp and small surface area. So it’s burned off. You can go as rich as you need . If your have an oil burner you’ll be very happy!
Sad to hear of the loss of your friend Marvin Burke David. God bless his family and yourself.as I am sure he is dearly missed. May his soul rest in peace
I must admit I'm intimidated by electrical circuits, I just haven't made myself set down and figure it out but I always enjoy hearing Mr. David share his information anybody else would've took this knowledge to the grave. Thank you Mr. David for all you've done your book on budget SBC has helped put us in the winners circle pretty regularly here at our mud track, river road mud racing on UA-cam
Im currently watching this video. I have a 1965 283 sbc , .030 over , intake is a 1966 283/327 GM "H" cast iron square bore intake , the one supposedly known as the 300 hp intake. I did some mild match porting, and just cleaned up the flash and burrs that gm left. One water passage was almost half closed by a huge casting flash. Heads are original 520 powerpacks ,1.50/1.72 and has had hardened valve seats installed. Going into 2 inch ramhorns . Edelbrock AVS2 1901, 500 cfm. Silver pop up springs. Pulling a solid 18 hg at warm 650 rpm idle . Cam is summit k1102 , 262/272 duration, 204/214, .050 420/442 lift...very similar to the Edelbrock Performer Plus cam grind. Right now, its timed at 12° base and the distributor is a bit of a combination of msd gm style hei ( no box) and a jegs blueprint. Reason being i took the best parts and combined for max voltage output and higher rpm allowance. The advance is 22° according to the msd part, and i put the vac pot from the jegs unit onto the msd carcass , for more adjustability , i suppose. So, im assuming a total of 34° timing at 2750 rpm. I see most if your videos are based on the typical 350 and use holley carbs. How can i apply the info here to my application . In a sense its still apples to apples being in the sbc realm , maybe more like a macintosh vs red delicious...if you get my meaning. Just a cruiser set up..1951 chev 3100 bodied, 1983 s10 chassis, th350 with a Ford 9 inch 3.25, open, p225,70R15 ...with an air conditioner. Roughly 3250 lb vehicle.
With V8 points sets made in the late 80s, I was experiencing point bounce at 5500+ RPM. I wonder if the V8 would be more prone for bounce than a 4 cylinder engine due to the doubling of the open/close cycles. Any thoughts? Back to the V8 mess, I was happy to find that Ford DuraSpark systems used the same base distributor housing as the point type. I also found that the parts were EXACTLY the same for ALL V8 distributors. I modified my FE distributor with the parts out of a broken 302 unit with a new pickup coil. The only housing mod is that the hole for the point to coil wire had to be made into a slot for the pickup coil wire to CD box exit. The DuraSpark system really didn't increase power output at first, but it did not drop off after 10.000 miles like the point system would without adjustment/replacement. Also, the wider gap on the plug would obviously fire a much richer mixture, I also suspect the CD system would work much better with the much larger camshaft I swapped in later on. I always used normal copper core plugs from Motorcraft & changed them at 20k mile intervals.
That is the problem with anyone who only thinks of money, You offer them help and cannot see past their Money Making. Thank you your interesting info, point bounce or valve bounce always affect an engines performance. You are a thinker which is great as many people seem to have lost that ability, or it have been knocked out of them by the way they live. Very interesting, thank you.
Old school spark plug and spark plug wire design is fine for most older cars. But when you have Distributor-less batch fire of 2 plugs per coil that plug and wire must be top notch. Add boost like in the early Subaru EJ22T and with the factory plug gapped at 0.041 inch it JUST handled factory boost. Up the boost just a little and the spark will not fire that 'THICK FOG' of Air/Fuel. Most thought it was 'Fuel Cut' but we found that if you regapped the plug to 0.031 or 0.035 it would fire it off. Remember, you are firing two plugs at a time, 180 degrees off. Guys were putting Neon coils on as they were a little hotter.
I have seen similar on the alky burning tractors running 120psi of boost we have to gap the plugs down to under .010 even with the best MSD type system to fire the plugs under that much cylinder pressure. At .025 it would break up and run like crap
Ask any generator guy why even a big V8 will have a gap of .025 or less when on propane. Don't mess around thinking you know more. One of the new guys called me on the job one day and said he just swapped out the plugs and it's popping and spitting like an animal. So I asked him what he set the gap to. "I thought they were pregapped" Yeah,they probably were for some whatever engine. Trust me ,pull em and set em to .020-.025 or so and call me back. Calls back, runs like a charm.
I used to race a a 500cc 2 stroke motorcycle for warm up I used NGK b9es or b9ev and when the motor was hot I would race on B9EGV or B10EGV depending on the weather..the difference in power was very noticeable...but if the plug fouled you were done so fuel/oil mix was a fine art on that engine...many wins but also many blowups.
Did you ever come across a Mallory Magspark? From what I understand it controlled the spark differently. From what I read it was intended to throw voltage across the plug gap for the period of time set between the dual points and this was adjustable.
I have ground my plugs like that since the 80's, deshroud the spark was good for 5 HP, now I can buy them that way out of the box. I go -2 cold with a 50k HEI and everything works well for me.
My experience with the extended electrode plugs are that they fuel foul where as a plug with the electrode futher down inside the sparkplug burns cleaner. my example is Champion RN12YC would foul and misfire where a Champion RN9YC would stay clean. everything else was exactly the same , Ign system gap and operation , fuel etc.
Good riddance to points. Electronic ignitions were available in the early '60s, and it took at least 10 more years to bring them to common use in factory cars. They work fantastic as people rarely think about ignitions much any more. I have seen great success factory ignitions, however, I have seen an advantage with MSD systems in race situations. MSD ignitions will fire any plug with a gap, as David said. There are of course other custom ignition makers other than MSD as well. As far as plugs go, I also have found todays iridium plugs appear optimum on conventional engine
Love the info! You've as always, got me hanging with anticipation on every word (even when I already read a lot of it in you're how to build horsepower book)! One thing that you didn't cover here that I was wondering about, was resistor type plugs and non resistor types. With a strong ignition does that not matter so much either?
Enjoyed the lecture. But also enjoy the fact that we now have fully programable (mappable) solid-state individual-coil ignition systems and don't have to deal with points and distributers any more.
Hello David. This is excellent information! Thank you for this. Do the other companies that make multi-electrode spark plugs perform as well as your reshaped specials or even the E3s? Is this something you have tested? I'm guessing this becomes much more important when stuck with a non-transistor system.
Hello Mr. Vizard. I have been following you since the first book I bought which is Theory and practice of cylinder head modification by yourself. This book was bought in 1973 which was your 2nd edition and I have still got it. At that time I was only 20 years old and now I am 69 years old so you can imagine how many years I have been following you. I must say throughout those years you have thought me lots of things and still doing it. I have not enough words to thanks you. Martin Spiteri from Malta Europe.
Ha! Transistor ignition systems! I learned the hard (and expensive way) in the 1980s that I had to change failed units almost as often as changing points!!
Always the spark moves from the initial point. The shapes add duration to the arc as it moves. Cratered electrode to a round hole edge... it might acually spin along the edge for a bit. A brilliant idea. You don't need multiple sparks if you can keep the one you have long enough. Any 50's thru 70's Chevy would see an increase in power from electronic ignition, the stock ignition was trash with too many cheap bits that just fail rather quickly. Car owner swears it's carburation... Pull and drop the distributor on the dyno and watch the scatter. Fairly consistant that 90% of Chevy carb problems was the ignition. As you say: A sorted out stockish ditributor would claim the bulk of the advertized power gains. Didn't have too much problem with the MG distributor cam shape but I would polish the surface with 1500 paper or the block would wear too quickly. Also would move the cap outside, away from the spinning bits. Bad things happened when they go for a wander.
Hard.to beat.an older mid 2000s Denso wfs-u plugs. On my briggs flatheads on either gas or methanol you.just couldn't foul the dam thing. Hell I am nearly a daily rider on mine and it has been lighting the fire without a miss for nearly.four years straight.
Tried split fire plugs years ago, actually could feel loss of power, motorcycle, talked to a professional they had Dyno test that lost power with those plugs.
Very good, Sir ! I hope you have saved a lot of beginners a lot of wasted effort and stopped a lot of ignition frauds in their tracks. My experience covers a lot of magnetos from the pull-chain type on antique stationary engine (don't laugh - Fairbanks Morse guaranteed them to work - period. Freakishly good design for slow speeds) to rechargeable magnet type (trash - horrible stuff before Alnico V permanent magnets!) to your separate Bosch, F-M, Wico, etc etc etc) to small engine flywheel magnetos with breaker points (generally good) to cog-belt driven outboard motors types (freakishly good from OMC) to aircraft mags (as you'd expect - excellent after WWII) to my personal favorite the 1972 Kawasaki H2 Capacitive Discharge Magneto. Having said all that I state that the USA craze for "Certified" auto mechanics came about because of the rise of transistorized ignitions from The Big Three in the early 1970s. So many of the WWII generation of mechanics were retiring after being confronted with GM HEI weird problems they didn't understand. Let me just sum up what I think anyone wanting to drive an old american car with battery ignition and a distributor ought to know. 1) I like points. If a stray spark inside a distributor hits them they shrug it off. Not so with inductive and hall effect triggers. 2) I like the large diameter HEI distributor caps. IF something begins to go wrong it will always happen between #5 and #7 cylinder on a Chevy V8. They are next to each other in the firing order and also the location of the cylinders. If you use the HEI dizzy and make their spark plug wires as physically separated as possible most of the problems are avoided. 3) I will be selling a kit to retrofit any HEI dizzy to a single set of NON-unitized (no condenser built on them) GM breaker points and it will use a clone of the old Z-28 breaker point cam.(GM stole Mister Vizard's high rpm point cam idea!) 4) Never use the coil-in-dist-cap design of HEI. I will be selling V8 caps that have a central terminal like 4 and 6 cylinder HEIs use. Stray sparks = enough said. 5) Forget all the hype about spark plug wires. Use NAPA 7mm "off highway" Farm Tractor straight metallic conductor wires. Part number 700172 and it takes two sets for a V8. What you want is the most conductive wire combined with the most insulating jackets. These are it. Downside is a high powered coil will eat spark plug electrodes. OH well - you are an enthusiast. right? 6) Nothing beats NGK "high ignite-ability" "Ruthenium HX" plugs. Crossing over your original plugs to these babies will drive your parts guy crazy. Drop a $20 on the damn counter, you cheapskate ! 7) HEI ignition timing wanders around while their internal circuity tries to find the right dwell period (a constant 3.5 milliseconds of straight +12 volts) from testing what percentage of the time the internal over-amperage-limiting circuity has to kick in. Junk it. Never use any form HEI module period. 8) Use the Grey Ford Remotely-mounted 1988 Aerostar minivan "Thick Film Ignition Module - PERIOD. Use it with it's "almost HEI powerful" standard ignition coil. HEI coil "sucks" 5 amps when charging - the TFI coil sucks 4.5 amps. Close enough. The reason you cant make your own transistor-assisted-inductive-ignition is "because dwell". Too much dwell and your all-plastic high power coil melts 60 miles down the highway. The Ford TFI unit actually calculates the time between ignition triggerings and starts charging the required 3.5 msec beforehand. Aaaaand it fires exactly when the points tell it to = not before, not after, WHEN the points break! 9) I will post again and I will refer you to a good wiring scheme for "TFI with Points". You are welcome, Pat Shaw, 7/20/2022
I guess I was late for the show. But I would like to find our how to modify my spark plugs like you did. And yes learned the hard way using Smal Block Chevy 350 using swirl port heads Chevy Q-Jet. Hade to back the timing off.It ran Great. Went through the carb and distributor
I ran across PSPE (projected square platinum electrode) design spark plugs recently and they are similar to your modified plug in the video at 23:38. Maybe NGK is the only maker?
Interesting do you know how big the hole wss he drilled in the plug negative electrode? Just made me think what about if you had a hole in the electrode and the center electrode came up through the hole so you're given gap is the size of the hole to the size of the electrode, and if it was tapered from the inside you could have some adjustment on this gap and the spark would be right on the tip the flat part.
Plug design does matter. Had a customer put Champion flat ground electrode plugs in his platinum tip plug required Toyota Cressida. No start, towed in with a piddly spark. He didn't believe it was the plugs. And insisted he would pay for the correct ones if it didn't start, as part of the diag. Lit off in half a crank. Thin center tip plugs increased the potential. Min 33:30. Two ground electrode plugs in a waste spark system. Four in an old rotary.
this video was awesome thank you! can you talk about the multi spark systems like msd box came out with back in ? anyway I've always wondered about that technology and their claims of what it does.
So on a jeep 4.0l that's been stroked to a 4.7l. With 10.1to1 compression, ported throttle body and intake, 12 hole 24lb injectors and a header, that'll need more spark than stock to really get it going? I'm an auto tech of 22 years but only diag and stock repair so I'm new to this site of the industry. My common sense says I'll need more lol. It uses the stock cam and supposedly the factory tune is good. My apprentice at work Jay graduated from Western tech for tuning and performance so I'll have access to the magic laptop. I'm not racing but it is a working rig for offroad recovery and general offroad shenanigans and I can't help myself from upgrading haha
DAVID; would like your thoughts on retrofitting a Pechamber Jet Ignition style Sparkplug in place of a conventional type of plug. Has anyone or company experimented doing it successfully?
Sir I catch all your videos, your common sense approach is totally understandable for the layman.But sir I have a question regarding split fire plugs.When they first came out I was riding a 1954 Tr5 motorcycle. Lucas magneto, I had open pipes of course so the jetting was slightly rich in the low speed circuit. It was pretty hard on plugs idealing thru town with lights and signs .I'm a Autolite man 100 % go thru a set every couple of months.,so I thought I would try a set of split fires. So I ordered a set they came I went through the installation basics. Ran them for a year.I took them out put another set in preparing for a trip, my younger friend he put my old ones in his 1962 T110 and ran them at least another summer.T110 was Lucas mag .as well .Sir I had very good results in these applications. Did the magneto cause them to do something the other types of systems didnt?
Hello David, I wanted to ask you if you ever tested any of the MSD ignition boxes? Like just about every high-performance item on the market today MSD claims to increase HP but I have never seen any independent dyno tests of any of the MSD products. Do they work? Love the Channel.
@@hotrodray6802 Thanks Ray, With the amount of big names using their products, I figured they had to do something better than stock parts. Thanks again.
I got a gain using an MSD on a Japanese Toyota 4age 20V. Gain was only 2.5% at peak power. The power difference became noticeable above 5000rpm, and grew all the way to rev cut of 8250. The system was piggybacked to a stock ECU, no timing or plug gap changes were made, just a true "back to back" test. It was while I was testing a camshaft which lost over 10% from previous testing. Yet even with this disappointing cam, those gains came in a win for the day.
Dr. Chris Jacobs also agrees that the weird electrode geometry and using precious metals doesn't help any, especially if the rest of the ignition system is in top shape anyway.
Ive actually been trying to research the last couple weeks the plug that would be best for my Engine. I have a SBC 350, 9.5:1 c.r., and a 172 Weiand Supercharger and it sounds like I should use a cooler non-projected plug? Do you have a recommendation for a brand and/or part # by chance for a spark plug that would work best? Thank you.
Great video David always enjoy your videos I wish you'd touch base a little bit on gas killing a plug for some of yours so they could understand it better and how easy it is to correct the problem good luck wish you the best
Mr DV, i would like to ask you about the Polyquad valve... What is the size difference for each intake and exhaust valve? eg. The intake valve 25mm / 26mm or 25mm / 27mm ? Please advise
David are you speaking of 26:21 the old "Super Sonic Spark Plug" (supposedly patented) that is out of Colorado??? I just found that site. Like you say: Easy mod to any single ground strap plug. There's even a UA-cam vid in India called "Sonic spark plug modifications".
DAVID; I remember an article you did called something like "Spark of Fury" on the old GoFast....website testing the Ignition Solutions Plasma Booster by Ulf Arens (inventer), now licensed to aka Okada Ignitions. I always wanted to try it, but my health got the best of me.... Ooops, I just finished the vid. Looks like you mentioned a piece of the backstory... Lol.
I still have a brand new Sig Erson distributor cam in my ignition parts box for a GM Delco distributor....The OEM High Performance GM distributors for the Z/28 302 and solid lifter HP BBC had long dwell high RPM breaker cams too....Caused us lots of headaches with degraded ignition points life in our Chevy Muscle Cars back in the 1970's.....Napa Echlin pionts were the same as ACCEL and a lot cheaper...The standard spring tension was a CS786....Then there were the 8000RPM high tension spring CS7860 points set that rapidly wore the rubbing block down....But, few knew about the CS86 pionts set that lived and gave 7000RPM reliabilty in those old Hot Rods. I used to use the Beru "Silverstone" spark plugs with the silver metal electrodes in my racing GoKarts back in the 70's they worked well! The early MSD "Gold Box" ignitions were absolute unreliable GARBAGE! even the later MSD 6 if triggered with a electronic distributor reluctor for piontless operation were terrible at keeping proper ignition timing if voltage dropped much below 13.5VDC
In the mid 70's I had a 327 with11to1 compression Sig Erson cam 510 lift 320 duration stock points, tried stiff spring points, Accel Super Coil. Points didn't last long dwell would change, timing change, etc. Went to a Mallory Unilite,ditched the points and the plugs last a long time after that. Ran a Holley 650 2bl .Run this combo in a Chevy2 with 4speed. Street Strip Car 9in slick. 42degrees timing, it would run 12.30s all day long. An old drag racing buddy of mine told me you can run a lot more timing with 11to1 compression.Run cold Autolite spark plugs get the biggest jets you can get ,which where 100s and a power valve. This may sound like BS but we went from 86 jets and 43 degrees timing worked our way 50 degrees timing and 100s jets plugs looked perfect. It went 12.0s , .3 faster. Put the mufflers back on changed the timing and jets back, and drove back home. I would leave the line at 4500rpm and shift at 6500 it would go threw the lights at 6800,like clock work.Made over a 1000 passes on that 327 before a rebuild was needed.
Wow. I have to see the plug wires! Funny. I have always said the e3 plug work the best. Really notice in the lawnmower! Yeah. Call me crazy but I think it made a big difference on how it run. Good work like always Doctor DV. Thank you again.
I have nothing but issues with those in generators. Vapor propane wants like .025 on the gap and air cooled wants like .020 at the most. Set em like a normal plug and you'll get tons of backfiring and it'll kill a gas regulator from that. So as soon as I see someone who thinks they are smart by using an e3 ,I pitch em out because you can't gap them down. Then they wonder how I fixed it. Easy, I put normal plugs in and kept the gap at .025 or less.
Hi David a bit off topic from this video but I'm looking at getting more oil pressure from my 1700 xflow in my mk2 Escort and was told about you using a shim in the oil pump spring would love to know about more, about how this is done, cheers
OEM's did away with distributors before the turn of the century, More than 20 years ago. Bone stock LS coils will support 1000 turbocharged horsepower, with no problems.
@@hotrodray6802 Ray where have you been the last 30 years ?. I lost MSD spark soon after outcof the box .A engine builder that has a REAL DINO TOLD ME TO GO WITH A PERTRONIX AND I DID AND IVE BBNCHAPPY EVER SINCE .
How are you grinding on that side electrode? I've tried a file, that didn't work lol. My next move is either gonna be a belt sander, or a rotary file on my ol trusty die grinder, or a Dremel I suppose.
Belt sander should be better more control or a grinding stone wheel you could try rounding off the corners as well on the electro side, he never mention that but that should give you a more controlled spark I would have thought. Give it a go and let me know if it's any better!
Jees how did you get into so many of my dreams & desires to make my engines beat my friends in the 60s&70s 80s . It was you whispering try this do that ,so often 🥂🏁 😴. I Shure could hear & feel well , what trick idea was a keeper or not ,in the day . Stop watch & know how to read a tach, was my dyno. & Got the name trick & cheater , at to many tracks . I love reminiscing to your postings . 🥂🥂You are the wise & wisdom one 🥂. I'm the country pumpkin ,whom missed another, of god's callings & Tons of great fun .
Your early transistor ignition reminded me of the point triggered transistor ignition on 75-76 toyota.the factory points had a cover over contacts of the points to prevent oil contamination.this cover would be removed and sometimes cause very erratic ignition because the low current was insufficient to burn the contaminates off the points.anyone still using this type of system needs to use dist.cam lube very sparingly.your 2.0 Ford book is a good read.looking forward to reading some of your newer books that I recently became aware of.i wish to apply to 70s fiat 128/x1/9 sohc.large bore very short stroke . any experience with this engine or one of similar design?
why would the hottest point/ the highest resistance point .. get the spark.. i guess you maybe able to get a longer spark forcing it through the hard path. but spark has to close to speed of light infact id think the spark is the after math of the energy that was transferred. like lightening and thunder
I worked at the biggest mail order performance company (guess who ) years ago when the "Spritfire" plugs came out. The gave us all a set of our choice. I thought a good test would be in my boat, which had a 4.3 Mercruiser engine. The performed so bad, I had to change out the plugs in the middle of the lake-and the engine had a pretty powerful ignition.
Back in the 80's I used to run some, for the time, pretty tough Cleveland street motors. Using different twin point distributors and various coils, I was never able to get the idle speed down under 1150 rpm. I purchased an Accel Laser II CDI ignition system and all of a sudden the idle speed was 750 rpm, no problem at all, sweet as a nut. I knew what the problem was, the required amount of fuel in the cylinders at low rpm, along with almost no atomisation, was drowning the plugs. These motors never had more than about 4 1/2" Hg at idle, so the airflow in the manifold was chaotic due to horrendous valve overlap, resulting in the fuel falling out of suspension. Top end hp didn't seem to change much, but the midrange drive ability did. What I learned out of this was that once you have enough spark, having more doesn't give much if any real benefit, and full throttle dyno testing doesn't always show the full story. In my case, the greatest gains were at less than full throttle operation, exactly where we don't dyno test. The less than 50% throttle performance was so greatly improved it was almost unbelievable. That said, I have no doubt that other brands of similar ignition systems would have also provided great benefit. Incidentally, I also used Nippon Denso spark plugs as I found they gave me a much wider heat window, allowing me to run a single heat range for street and race. Excellent video David, very much looking forward to the next instalment. Regards Greg
Absolutely correct....
On a side note, back in the day when I was a kid, the very first time I installed an MSD 6-AL on a healthy big block, I had to retard my initial ignition timing a few degrees, because with the better ignition the engine kicked back against the starter and it wouldn't roll over. Nothing changed with the timing when I installed the MSD system, I never pulled the distributor or loosened the bolt for it, the MSD ignition just had that much more fire power than my stock ignition did and it lit the cylinders off much more efficiently. The motor still liked the same amount of total timing that it had before, but it DEFINITELY wanted less initial timing after the MSD install.
Thank you. DV. Been reading your book s. 4. Decades now. Your knowledge put me in the winner's circle. Thank you
By the way on the short track that I ran in Virginia. We got the same number brother. 50. August 7th 1999. ODS Virginia
Thank you David. I’m in U.K. and bought some of your tuning books some long years ago and they live on a shelf next to my bed. I regard them as gospel because unlike many others you work as a scientist rather than as a businessman. Btw, as the father of a 25 year old daughter who has struggled at times I was glad to donate to your chosen charity.
The Mopar Prestolite transistor ignition was extremely light duty on the points, concerning amperage draw . Jenkins might have used the box on Chevys for a dozen plus years after two years of Hemis . The Mallory 102-X points would go way beyond any RPM seen in the car . Z-28 , and or Corvette distributor cams, the Z-28 cam was special . The one we tried from Calee was junk, because of terrible concentricty, maybe 3 or 4 degrees out of even 90° .
YES! Those "Solid Lifter Chevy" distributor cams had longer dwell times and smoother lobes for high RPM's and those cars would have bad degredation of ignition points sets back in the day....Chevy thought a lot about what they were doing....Didn't put a chickeshit 6500 RPM ignition limiter on their motors like Ford did with their solid lifter Musclecar motors.
Been my experience that with stock stuff, use the exact OE plug called out on the hood sticker, manual, warning sticker on the motor, whatever, just find out and use that, or at least match the construction style and heat range. Last time I tried outsmarting the engineers I put some nice platinum fine wire Bosch plugs in a 4.0 jeep that called for some boring copper champion plug, it was idling funny again in a few months, half the plugs had the fine wire melted/blasted off (mild detonation?). Put a set of the hood sticker plugs in it and no trouble until it shattered the no 6 piston as they're known to do.
Jeep 4.0 engines in particular are finicky about the plugs. They’ll act up on anything other than standard copper. It happened with my engine, and I’ve read many accounts of the same thing with others. I wish I knew why those 4.0 engines do that.
Hi David, I used to work at Simola's Race Engines in about 1980. If you know them, they did a lot of Formula Ford Kent engines. And were competitive at it. When Sports 2000 started getting popular, we worked on one of them to get started but, like any starting project, they had trouble getting it above 110 horsepower. The same as the pushrod Kent. I thought that was strange give that it should have a better head design. Well, they did not at the time put much R&D into it. Of course, Sports 2000 had many restrictions just like Formula Ford, but I still thought the 2 liter Pinto engine had more potential. At the time Formula Ford and Cosworth BDA's were their bread and butter and perhaps they didn't know if they should put much effort into these Sports 2000 engines. It is a shame. They were so plentiful.
I looked up your 2 liter ohc Ford book for sale online. It looks like there is still some money to be made on them. It seems to be going for $75 or more dollars if you can get your hands on it. Funny that all these years later there is still interest in these motors and your tuning/modifications book.
Sir David, i am glad you are still giving advise and teach some about how to improve piston driven engines
You are Einstein you are a genius you're my teacher you're my god-given to information on engines you're really helping me out so much I'm tooling around with GY6 engines on the Chinese scooters thank you so much Steve from Annapolis Maryland
A couple of caveats about extended tip spark plugs.
Some brands extend them more than others, this can be a problem with engines that run domed pistons and/or vertical plug positions as one brand may be fine - the builder DID check, didn't (s)he? - and if you're lucky it will just close them up - if you're unlucky it may damage the piston and even break up the spark plug tip, dumping debris into the chamber.
From that, you can gather that if replacing a standard OEM recessed tip with an extended tip one really needs to know if there's clearance.
Reading a sparkplug for fuel and timing is a fascinating thing..Can you do a little on that please Dave.?
Actually, the points are bouncing on closure even at idle regardless of spring stiffness. There is no damping mechanism with points so they naturally bounce even with a well thought out distributor cam profile. Bounce does no harm with the Kettering system unless the bounce on closure adversely shortens the dwell period which can happen at higher rpm. When things really go to hell in a hand basket (IE untimed sparks and total misfires) is when the points start to float (same phenomenon as valve float). If the float is bad enough, the moving arm of the points can actually break. Points float usually occurs well past the normal redline but it could happen at lower rpm with poorly made points having a weak spring.
The ignition system can be 100kV but what voltage it will spark is dictated by the gaps (spar plug in series with Kettering gap, inside the distributor). 30kV can jump a centimeter at sea level theoretically, and can be considered a hot ignition system I guess.
Great Kettering explanation.
I remember them, Sparkrite, Pirranah, Lumenition. CDI (fast rise time) vs Transistor Assisted (spark duration), and Multispark Systems.
Though the system can generate 50,000 volts, the spark will occur at the voltage needed to jump the gap(influenced by mixture consistency, swirl, temp, and gap) at a much lower voltage aprox10KV if mem serves..
Rob - you must be my age! The Pirranah guys were my big problem.
@@marvingvx1 geez WE ARE old..... 😆😆😆😎
@@marvingvx1 yeah I'm a old guy to just hope and pray are spark plugs keep sparked and don't go MSD on us .🤣
Yes, remember the piranha and lamination guys back when running 2l Ford in budget class street sedans in Aus.
Made similar to your electrode mod used points and raised voltage to coil to run.
Worked and won championship 2 yrs against bigger budget systems who all scoffed at our methods.
Car was sold and new buyers fitted electronic systems and changed everything on dubious advice and car never won anything again.
It's also a makeshift Faraday cage.
The most interesting plugs I've worked with are the Bosch +4's. They don't seem to have any real advantage in a wedge head but in a 4 valve with centrally located plug they do offer some light throttle benefits. Besides having 4 ground electrodes to lengthen their service intervals, if you look at the ceramic you can easily see the spark path carbon trails going to the ground electrodes being they fire sideways from the fine wire center electrode. What was really interesting is on a well worn plug it's obvious that one electrode was getting most of the sparks...showing a fair amount of erosion, while the other three had seen some activity but nothing like that one really worn one.
This made the question of why would the spark choose that one electrode most of the time? They're all the same material and close to the exact same distance...so there's something else happening here and I believe it's because of the swirling mixture making that one electrode the most conductive at the instant of ignition. That conductivity is no doubt temperature related as you mentioned but I also think the amount of fuel molecules that happen to be physically in the gap contribute to this extra conductivity and the spark goes where it can the easiest.
The tests I did were in an old KIA Rio5 w/1.6L automatic and a nearby steady grade that's about a mile long. Begin the pull at 60 mph (2400 rpm) and hold 5" H2O on the vacuum gauge for the entire run. Swapped the stock plugs, Iridium NGK's and the Bosch +4's several times with runs inbetween ...all told about 16 runs up this grade and every time (all done within 2 hours) the +4's made it to the top holding more speed. The Iridium's were a couple mph's better than the stock plugs and the +4's another several mph's better than the Iridium's and 5+mph better than the stock plugs. I do doubt that WOT is much affected but at light throttle the +4's do offer a performance and mpg benefit in that engine. Good work and video as always David. Thanks!
For all of the opinions people had about BP+4's (emissions! (shake fist) gimmick! sold at K-Mart!) we tested them on the dyno and for the VW 1.8L 8V motor, we never found a better plug.
I had a 3-cyl. Geo Metro that gave me 41 mpg for my daily driving. P installed Bosch Platinum +4 plugs and the mileage went up 14 percent to about 47. On weeks when I avoided red lights I would get 50 mpg.
Of course my son got his drivers license and wanted to show me how to accelerate. And then he showed me how to stuff it into an embankment beside the road.
When I was younger. In Mi. Would go into Magnacor and pick up wire sets I ordered in quantity. Sometimes custom sets. Always was intrigued by the shelves of competitors ignition products they bought and tested. Enjoyed when I was shown them on the test machines.
Another fascinating lesson! Thanks DV
For St Judes in Memory of your dear Jacque.
I remember setting points in the field with a matchbook (about 0.018).
In my racecar I now use HEI.
Business card👍 trouble is that cam wear screws with the dwell... That's why dwell setting is more important than gap.
@@hotrodray6802 that's true, but when you're driving your baling wire special with a bad striker plate in the distributor if the points close you gotta do something.
just when I learned about dwell and vacuumed and dual point ignitions, HEI ignitions replaced them.
As a normal gearhead and motorcycle enthusiast of long standing, now building engines for bicycles, even miniscule gains can be quite noticeable when dealing with small volume engines and especially two strokes. I found that NGK would trump most of the rest, providing good ignition when cold and reliable burn through in heavy oil mix motors. Never satisfied and always hoping, I started modifying the plug electrodes in a manner similar to your "holey electrode" example. I started with a four electrode marine type plug and cupped the center electrode. Knowing that sparks prefer a sharp corner or point, I cut a negative radius in the inward face of each of the four outer prongs, leaving them sharp at the top and bottom. A swipe or two with a fine mill bastard file across the sides and top of each gave them a perfect multiplicity of surfaces with which the cupped center could interact. The lighting off of the charge by the centered plug, whether swirling or still, had been a tad iffy to ignite due to a broad squish band and a domed piston, necessitating as short a plug as possible or having to give away much wanted compression. This ceased to be an issue, which I had tried previously tried to rectify by grooving the underside of the shell electrode and "aiming" such resulting 'jet' in differing directions by means of washer thickness. The marine plug and 8mm plug wires with copper cores solved the problem. A copper washer raised the plug to just beneath the head, allowing for a thinner head gasket leaving the space between the porcelain and the steel to distribute any flame jet, as was, I suppose, it's original intended usage. Thank you for a fine video with helpful and hard earned knowledge that might allow us to stand on the shoulders of your giant experiences.
Years ago I would cut the ground electrode back to even with the edge of the center electrode to help expose the spark to the fuel on my 2 stroke dirt bike. It seemed to work pretty well. Seemed to have a little more power.
I run plugs like that today in my 1000h.p. N/A big block. You can buy them already cut back like out of the box.
Autolite part# AR3932 "Racing"
Denso TT. I was a skeptic but WOW. If you have an engine that fowls the plugs, these plugs stay burned off really well. They have small electrodes at both ends so it forces the spark to happen there and at a high temp and small surface area. So it’s burned off. You can go as rich as you need . If your have an oil burner you’ll be very happy!
Sad to hear of the loss of your friend Marvin Burke David. God bless his family and yourself.as I am sure he is dearly missed. May his soul rest in peace
Cant wait for the discussion on spark plug wires Pt2. David can you mention where you are with your SBF book in the next episode? Thank You
I must admit I'm intimidated by electrical circuits, I just haven't made myself set down and figure it out but I always enjoy hearing Mr. David share his information anybody else would've took this knowledge to the grave. Thank you Mr. David for all you've done your book on budget SBC has helped put us in the winners circle pretty regularly here at our mud track, river road mud racing on UA-cam
Hi David l have an old Crane Xri module in my original Buick 455 distributor. What do you think of the system l have had it in my car for 20 years now
Im currently watching this video. I have a 1965 283 sbc , .030 over , intake is a 1966 283/327 GM "H" cast iron square bore intake , the one supposedly known as the 300 hp intake. I did some mild match porting, and just cleaned up the flash and burrs that gm left. One water passage was almost half closed by a huge casting flash.
Heads are original 520 powerpacks ,1.50/1.72 and has had hardened valve seats installed. Going into 2 inch ramhorns .
Edelbrock AVS2 1901, 500 cfm. Silver pop up springs. Pulling a solid 18 hg at warm 650 rpm idle .
Cam is summit k1102
, 262/272 duration, 204/214, .050 420/442 lift...very similar to the Edelbrock Performer Plus cam grind.
Right now, its timed at 12° base and the distributor is a bit of a combination of msd gm style hei ( no box) and a jegs blueprint. Reason being i took the best parts and combined for max voltage output and higher rpm allowance. The advance is 22° according to the msd part, and i put the vac pot from the jegs unit onto the msd carcass , for more adjustability , i suppose. So, im assuming a total of 34° timing at 2750 rpm.
I see most if your videos are based on the typical 350 and use holley carbs.
How can i apply the info here to my application . In a sense its still apples to apples being in the sbc realm , maybe more like a macintosh vs red delicious...if you get my meaning.
Just a cruiser set up..1951 chev 3100 bodied, 1983 s10 chassis, th350 with a Ford 9 inch 3.25, open, p225,70R15 ...with an air conditioner.
Roughly 3250 lb vehicle.
This is great David thank you for explaining and giving us wisdom to listen too
With V8 points sets made in the late 80s, I was experiencing point bounce at 5500+ RPM. I wonder if the V8 would be more prone for bounce than a 4 cylinder engine due to the doubling of the open/close cycles. Any thoughts? Back to the V8 mess, I was happy to find that Ford DuraSpark systems used the same base distributor housing as the point type. I also found that the parts were EXACTLY the same for ALL V8 distributors. I modified my FE distributor with the parts out of a broken 302 unit with a new pickup coil. The only housing mod is that the hole for the point to coil wire had to be made into a slot for the pickup coil wire to CD box exit. The DuraSpark system really didn't increase power output at first, but it did not drop off after 10.000 miles like the point system would without adjustment/replacement. Also, the wider gap on the plug would obviously fire a much richer mixture, I also suspect the CD system would work much better with the much larger camshaft I swapped in later on. I always used normal copper core plugs from Motorcraft & changed them at 20k mile intervals.
That is the problem with anyone who only thinks of money, You offer them help and cannot see past their Money Making.
Thank you your interesting info, point bounce or valve bounce always affect an engines performance. You are a thinker which is great
as many people seem to have lost that ability, or it have been knocked out of them by the way they live. Very interesting, thank you.
Old school spark plug and spark plug wire design is fine for most older cars. But when you have Distributor-less batch fire of 2 plugs per coil that plug and wire must be top notch. Add boost like in the early Subaru EJ22T and with the factory plug gapped at 0.041 inch it JUST handled factory boost. Up the boost just a little and the spark will not fire that 'THICK FOG' of Air/Fuel. Most thought it was 'Fuel Cut' but we found that if you regapped the plug to 0.031 or 0.035 it would fire it off. Remember, you are firing two plugs at a time, 180 degrees off. Guys were putting Neon coils on as they were a little hotter.
You're not really firing 2 plugs as such because one is at low cylinder pressure and only loses about 1 KV.
I have seen similar on the alky burning tractors running 120psi of boost we have to gap the plugs down to under .010 even with the best MSD type system to fire the plugs under that much cylinder pressure. At .025 it would break up and run like crap
Ask any generator guy why even a big V8 will have a gap of .025 or less when on propane.
Don't mess around thinking you know more.
One of the new guys called me on the job one day and said he just swapped out the plugs and it's popping and spitting like an animal.
So I asked him what he set the gap to.
"I thought they were pregapped"
Yeah,they probably were for some whatever engine.
Trust me ,pull em and set em to .020-.025 or so and call me back.
Calls back, runs like a charm.
🔔😎 Thank you again for sharing your stories and knowledge. See you in Sikeston.
St. Jude's #1 since 1978 👍👍👍
Well Harry Weslake designed the Mini Cylinder head so it better be damn efficient!
I used to race a a 500cc 2 stroke motorcycle for warm up I used NGK b9es or b9ev and when the motor was hot I would race on B9EGV or B10EGV depending on the weather..the difference in power was very noticeable...but if the plug fouled you were done so fuel/oil mix was a fine art on that engine...many wins but also many blowups.
Did you ever come across a Mallory Magspark? From what I understand it controlled the spark differently. From what I read it was intended to throw voltage across the plug gap for the period of time set between the dual points and this was adjustable.
I have ground my plugs like that since the 80's, deshroud the spark was good for 5 HP, now I can buy them that way out of the box. I go -2 cold with a 50k HEI and everything works well for me.
My experience with the extended electrode plugs are that they fuel foul where as a plug with the electrode futher down inside the sparkplug burns cleaner. my example is Champion RN12YC would foul and misfire where a Champion RN9YC would stay clean. everything else was exactly the same , Ign system gap and operation , fuel etc.
Good riddance to points. Electronic ignitions were available in the early '60s, and it took at least 10 more years to bring them to common use in factory cars. They work fantastic as people rarely think about ignitions much any more. I have seen great success factory ignitions, however, I have seen an advantage with MSD systems in race situations. MSD ignitions will fire any plug with a gap, as David said. There are of course other custom ignition makers other than MSD as well. As far as plugs go, I also have found todays iridium plugs appear optimum on conventional engine
Love the info! You've as always, got me hanging with anticipation on every word (even when I already read a lot of it in you're how to build horsepower book)!
One thing that you didn't cover here that I was wondering about, was resistor type plugs and non resistor types. With a strong ignition does that not matter so much either?
Enjoyed the lecture. But also enjoy the fact that we now have fully programable (mappable) solid-state individual-coil ignition systems and don't have to deal with points and distributers any more.
totally agree!
What about indexing plugs?
Hello David. This is excellent information! Thank you for this. Do the other companies that make multi-electrode spark plugs perform as well as your reshaped specials or even the E3s? Is this something you have tested? I'm guessing this becomes much more important when stuck with a non-transistor system.
Hello Mr. Vizard. I have been following you since the first book I bought which is Theory and practice of cylinder head modification by yourself. This book was bought in 1973 which was your 2nd edition and I have still got it. At that time I was only 20 years old and now I am 69 years old so you can imagine how many years I have been following you. I must say throughout those years you have thought me lots of things and still doing it. I have not enough words to thanks you. Martin Spiteri from Malta Europe.
David, I used to run Golden Lodge plugs in my Cooper "S". From memory they had normal centre electrode with 4 fin type electrodes around the outside.
i cant wait for the next one, thank you
Ha! Transistor ignition systems! I learned the hard (and expensive way) in the 1980s that I had to change failed units almost as often as changing points!!
Always the spark moves from the initial point. The shapes add duration to the arc as it moves. Cratered electrode to a round hole edge... it might acually spin along the edge for a bit. A brilliant idea. You don't need multiple sparks if you can keep the one you have long enough.
Any 50's thru 70's Chevy would see an increase in power from electronic ignition, the stock ignition was trash with too many cheap bits that just fail rather quickly. Car owner swears it's carburation... Pull and drop the distributor on the dyno and watch the scatter. Fairly consistant that 90% of Chevy carb problems was the ignition.
As you say: A sorted out stockish ditributor would claim the bulk of the advertized power gains. Didn't have too much problem with the MG distributor cam shape but I would polish the surface with 1500 paper or the block would wear too quickly. Also would move the cap outside, away from the spinning bits. Bad things happened when they go for a wander.
Surely by now everyone knows that double platinum and double iridium plugs fire at a lower voltage sue to the sharp points of the electrodes.
I've never installed a set that worked. Unhappy owners.
@@hotrodray6802 who's he calling Shirley 😁
Hard.to beat.an older mid 2000s Denso wfs-u plugs. On my briggs flatheads on either gas or methanol you.just couldn't foul the dam thing. Hell I am nearly a daily rider on mine and it has been lighting the fire without a miss for nearly.four years straight.
David Vizard>>
you are a genius and a god among men . thank you for all your knowledge that you have here in these videos for they are priceless !!!
Tried split fire plugs years ago, actually could feel loss of power, motorcycle, talked to a professional they had Dyno test that lost power with those plugs.
XR4Ti. Noticeably better than brand new Motorcraft.👍👍😎
Junk gimmick crap.
Very good, Sir ! I hope you have saved a lot of beginners a lot of wasted effort and stopped a lot of ignition frauds in their tracks. My experience covers a lot of magnetos from the pull-chain type on antique stationary engine (don't laugh - Fairbanks Morse guaranteed them to work - period. Freakishly good design for slow speeds) to rechargeable magnet type (trash - horrible stuff before Alnico V permanent magnets!) to your separate Bosch, F-M, Wico, etc etc etc) to small engine flywheel magnetos with breaker points (generally good) to cog-belt driven outboard motors types (freakishly good from OMC) to aircraft mags (as you'd expect - excellent after WWII) to my personal favorite the 1972 Kawasaki H2 Capacitive Discharge Magneto.
Having said all that I state that the USA craze for "Certified" auto mechanics came about because of the rise of transistorized ignitions from The Big Three in the early 1970s. So many of the WWII generation of mechanics were retiring after being confronted with GM HEI weird problems they didn't understand.
Let me just sum up what I think anyone wanting to drive an old american car with battery ignition and a distributor ought to know. 1) I like points. If a stray spark inside a distributor hits them they shrug it off. Not so with inductive and hall effect triggers. 2) I like the large diameter HEI distributor caps. IF something begins to go wrong it will always happen between #5 and #7 cylinder on a Chevy V8. They are next to each other in the firing order and also the location of the cylinders. If you use the HEI dizzy and make their spark plug wires as physically separated as possible most of the problems are avoided. 3) I will be selling a kit to retrofit any HEI dizzy to a single set of NON-unitized (no condenser built on them) GM breaker points and it will use a clone of the old Z-28 breaker point cam.(GM stole Mister Vizard's high rpm point cam idea!)
4) Never use the coil-in-dist-cap design of HEI. I will be selling V8 caps that have a central terminal like 4 and 6 cylinder HEIs use. Stray sparks = enough said. 5) Forget all the hype about spark plug wires. Use NAPA 7mm "off highway" Farm Tractor straight metallic conductor wires. Part number 700172 and it takes two sets for a V8. What you want is the most conductive wire combined with the most insulating jackets. These are it. Downside is a high powered coil will eat spark plug electrodes. OH well - you are an enthusiast. right? 6) Nothing beats NGK "high ignite-ability" "Ruthenium HX" plugs. Crossing over your original plugs to these babies will drive your parts guy crazy. Drop a $20 on the damn counter, you cheapskate !
7) HEI ignition timing wanders around while their internal circuity tries to find the right dwell period (a constant 3.5 milliseconds of straight +12 volts) from testing what percentage of the time the internal over-amperage-limiting circuity has to kick in. Junk it. Never use any form HEI module period. 8) Use the Grey Ford Remotely-mounted 1988 Aerostar minivan "Thick Film Ignition Module - PERIOD. Use it with it's "almost HEI powerful" standard ignition coil. HEI coil "sucks" 5 amps when charging - the TFI coil sucks 4.5 amps. Close enough. The reason you cant make your own transistor-assisted-inductive-ignition is "because dwell". Too much dwell and your all-plastic high power coil melts 60 miles down the highway. The Ford TFI unit actually calculates the time between ignition triggerings and starts charging the required 3.5 msec beforehand. Aaaaand it fires exactly when the points tell it to = not before, not after, WHEN the points break!
9) I will post again and I will refer you to a good wiring scheme for "TFI with Points".
You are welcome,
Pat Shaw, 7/20/2022
I guess I was late for the show. But I would like to find our how to modify my spark plugs like you did. And yes learned the hard way using Smal Block Chevy 350 using swirl port heads Chevy Q-Jet. Hade to back the timing off.It ran Great. Went through the carb and distributor
Thanks Dr.Dave.
I ran across PSPE (projected square platinum electrode) design spark plugs recently and they are similar to your modified plug in the video at 23:38. Maybe NGK is the only maker?
Interesting do you know how big the hole wss he drilled in the plug negative electrode?
Just made me think what about if you had a hole in the electrode and the center electrode came up through the hole so you're given gap is the size of the hole to the size of the electrode, and if it was tapered from the inside you could have some adjustment on this gap and the spark would be right on the tip the flat part.
Plug design does matter. Had a customer put Champion flat ground electrode plugs in his platinum tip plug required Toyota Cressida. No start, towed in with a piddly spark. He didn't believe it was the plugs. And insisted he would pay for the correct ones if it didn't start, as part of the diag. Lit off in half a crank. Thin center tip plugs increased the potential. Min 33:30. Two ground electrode plugs in a waste spark system. Four in an old rotary.
Autolite 985 best plug for Low compression 3/4 reach 5/8 hex gasket seat. Which is standard for all your modern Aluminum heads .
this video was awesome thank you! can you talk about the multi spark systems like msd box came out with back in ? anyway I've always wondered about that technology and their claims of what it does.
They're freaking awesome. 👍👍👍😎Just don't get shocked by one.
Use them, they are great
NEVER run an extended nose sparkplug with a power adder. It can become a glow plug. I am shocked that David did not say this.
Heat range... He did mention that.
So on a jeep 4.0l that's been stroked to a 4.7l. With 10.1to1 compression, ported throttle body and intake, 12 hole 24lb injectors and a header, that'll need more spark than stock to really get it going? I'm an auto tech of 22 years but only diag and stock repair so I'm new to this site of the industry. My common sense says I'll need more lol. It uses the stock cam and supposedly the factory tune is good. My apprentice at work Jay graduated from Western tech for tuning and performance so I'll have access to the magic laptop. I'm not racing but it is a working rig for offroad recovery and general offroad shenanigans and I can't help myself from upgrading haha
DAVID; would like your thoughts on retrofitting a Pechamber Jet Ignition style Sparkplug in place of a conventional type of plug.
Has anyone or company experimented doing it successfully?
Sir I catch all your videos, your common sense approach is totally understandable for the layman.But sir I have a question regarding split fire plugs.When they first came out I was riding a 1954 Tr5 motorcycle. Lucas magneto, I had open pipes of course so the jetting was slightly rich in the low speed circuit. It was pretty hard on plugs idealing thru town with lights and signs .I'm a Autolite man 100 % go thru a set every couple of months.,so I thought I would try a set of split fires. So I ordered a set they came I went through the installation basics. Ran them for a year.I took them out put another set in preparing for a trip, my younger friend he put my old ones in his 1962 T110 and ran them at least another summer.T110 was Lucas mag .as well .Sir I had very good results in these applications. Did the magneto cause them to do something the other types of systems didnt?
Hello David, I wanted to ask you if you ever tested any of the MSD ignition boxes? Like just about every high-performance item on the market today MSD claims to increase HP but I have never seen any independent dyno tests of any of the MSD products. Do they work? Love the Channel.
Previous videos he said 👍👍👍
@@hotrodray6802 Thanks Ray, With the amount of big names using their products, I figured they had to do something better than stock parts. Thanks again.
I got a gain using an MSD on a Japanese Toyota 4age 20V. Gain was only 2.5% at peak power. The power difference became noticeable above 5000rpm, and grew all the way to rev cut of 8250.
The system was piggybacked to a stock ECU, no timing or plug gap changes were made, just a true "back to back" test. It was while I was testing a camshaft which lost over 10% from previous testing. Yet even with this disappointing cam, those gains came in a win for the day.
I wish he had a picture of what he was talking about.. about his idea... Of flattening.. and drilling... Or something... I can't picture it at all
Like a tennis racket (with no strings) centered over the electrode that is dished out. The spark jumps edge to edge all around and goes out the hole.
Dr. Chris Jacobs also agrees that the weird electrode geometry and using precious metals doesn't help any, especially if the rest of the ignition system is in top shape anyway.
Well, time to take a closer look at my spark plugs, amazing information
should I be drilling out my sparkplugs?
Ive actually been trying to research the last couple weeks the plug that would be best for my Engine. I have a SBC 350, 9.5:1 c.r., and a 172 Weiand Supercharger and it sounds like I should use a cooler non-projected plug? Do you have a recommendation for a brand and/or part # by chance for a spark plug that would work best? Thank you.
Can you show a pic of the plug that you reshaped and drilled the hole in
Great video David always enjoy your videos I wish you'd touch base a little bit on gas killing a plug for some of yours so they could understand it better and how easy it is to correct the problem good luck wish you the best
Mr DV, i would like to ask you about the Polyquad valve... What is the size difference for each intake and exhaust valve? eg. The intake valve 25mm / 26mm or 25mm / 27mm ? Please advise
Your great 🎖🏆🏅🏅🏅 sending lost of respect and love from jamaica I have learned so much thank you
Is there any benefit to using non resistor plugs? Thanks.
My buds old 75 Honda Elsinore 250 would wreak havoc with the neighbors tv without a resistor plug 😅😅
@@MrTheHillfolk Not if the wires are spiral core.
I guess I'm not important enough to reply to, well David not important enough to subscribe to, see ya.
@@joe-hp4nk lol
David are you speaking of 26:21 the old "Super Sonic Spark Plug" (supposedly patented) that is out of Colorado???
I just found that site. Like you say: Easy mod to any single ground strap plug. There's even a UA-cam vid in India called "Sonic spark plug modifications".
DAVID; I remember an article you did called something like "Spark of Fury" on the old GoFast....website testing the Ignition Solutions Plasma Booster by Ulf Arens (inventer), now licensed to aka Okada Ignitions. I always wanted to try it, but my health got the best of me.... Ooops, I just finished the vid. Looks like you mentioned a piece of the backstory... Lol.
I still have a brand new Sig Erson distributor cam in my ignition parts box for a GM Delco distributor....The OEM High Performance GM distributors for the Z/28 302 and solid lifter HP BBC had long dwell high RPM breaker cams too....Caused us lots of headaches with degraded ignition points life in our Chevy Muscle Cars back in the 1970's.....Napa Echlin pionts were the same as ACCEL and a lot cheaper...The standard spring tension was a CS786....Then there were the 8000RPM high tension spring CS7860 points set that rapidly wore the rubbing block down....But, few knew about the CS86 pionts set that lived and gave 7000RPM reliabilty in those old Hot Rods. I used to use the Beru "Silverstone" spark plugs with the silver metal electrodes in my racing GoKarts back in the 70's they worked well! The early MSD "Gold Box" ignitions were absolute unreliable GARBAGE! even the later MSD 6 if triggered with a electronic distributor reluctor for piontless operation were terrible at keeping proper ignition timing if voltage dropped much below 13.5VDC
In the mid 70's I had a 327 with11to1 compression Sig Erson cam 510 lift 320 duration stock points, tried stiff spring points, Accel Super Coil. Points didn't last long dwell would change, timing change, etc. Went to a Mallory Unilite,ditched the points and the plugs last a long time after that. Ran a Holley 650 2bl .Run this combo in a Chevy2 with 4speed. Street Strip Car 9in slick. 42degrees timing, it would run 12.30s all day long. An old drag racing buddy of mine told me you can run a lot more timing with 11to1 compression.Run cold Autolite spark plugs get the biggest jets you can get ,which where 100s and a power valve. This may sound like BS but we went from 86 jets and 43 degrees timing worked our way 50 degrees timing and 100s jets plugs looked perfect. It went 12.0s , .3 faster. Put the mufflers back on changed the timing and jets back, and drove back home. I would leave the line at 4500rpm and shift at 6500 it would go threw the lights at 6800,like clock work.Made over a 1000 passes on that 327 before a rebuild was needed.
Since you cut the electrode strap slightly, can you still read the timing mark on the strap?
Don't forget the special name you came up with for that spark plug idea and the special way you spelled it. That only you know about!!
How would the side gapped plug electrode work in a nitrous engine? We use a lot of nitrous on 4 cylinder motorcycle engins.
Making a good spark in all that cylinder pressure seems like a good idea.
Wow. I have to see the plug wires! Funny. I have always said the e3 plug work the best. Really notice in the lawnmower! Yeah. Call me crazy but I think it made a big difference on how it run. Good work like always Doctor DV. Thank you again.
no need for plug wires when you have COP ignition ;)
@@manitoublack
96% of hotrod engines don't.
I have nothing but issues with those in generators.
Vapor propane wants like .025 on the gap and air cooled wants like .020 at the most.
Set em like a normal plug and you'll get tons of backfiring and it'll kill a gas regulator from that.
So as soon as I see someone who thinks they are smart by using an e3 ,I pitch em out because you can't gap them down.
Then they wonder how I fixed it.
Easy, I put normal plugs in and kept the gap at .025 or less.
David were cool video love the story's
Hi David a bit off topic from this video but I'm looking at getting more oil pressure from my 1700 xflow in my mk2 Escort and was told about you using a shim in the oil pump spring would love to know about more, about how this is done, cheers
As per any pressure relief valve ever you just put more preload on the spring and you get higher pressure
I can't seem to find part 2. ???
OEM's did away with distributors before the turn of the century, More than 20 years ago. Bone stock LS coils will support 1000 turbocharged horsepower, with no problems.
I graduated from MSD my spark died to PERTRONIX ANDXHAPPY DAYS EVER SINCE . 🥳
I've only seen one fail in 30yrs.
@@hotrodray6802 Ray where have you been the last 30 years ?. I lost MSD spark soon after outcof the box .A engine builder that has a REAL DINO TOLD ME TO GO WITH A PERTRONIX AND I DID AND IVE BBNCHAPPY EVER SINCE .
How are you grinding on that side electrode? I've tried a file, that didn't work lol.
My next move is either gonna be a belt sander, or a rotary file on my ol trusty die grinder, or a Dremel I suppose.
Belt sander should be better more control or a grinding stone wheel you could try rounding off the corners as well on the electro side, he never mention that but that should give you a more controlled spark I would have thought. Give it a go and let me know if it's any better!
Did you ever test golden lodge spark plugs?
I bought a dwell meter back in the 70s but didn’t have a clue on how to use it LOL
I haven't used my dwell meter since the late 70's
You answered several questions
Jees how did you get into so many of my dreams & desires to make my engines beat my friends in the 60s&70s 80s . It was you whispering try this do that ,so often 🥂🏁 😴. I Shure could hear & feel well , what trick idea was a keeper or not ,in the day . Stop watch & know how to read a tach, was my dyno. & Got the name trick & cheater , at to many tracks . I love reminiscing to your postings . 🥂🥂You are the wise & wisdom one 🥂. I'm the country pumpkin ,whom missed another, of god's callings & Tons of great fun .
The sparkalators are in the van
Your early transistor ignition reminded me of the point triggered transistor ignition on 75-76 toyota.the factory points had a cover over contacts of the points to prevent oil contamination.this cover would be removed and sometimes cause very erratic ignition because the low current was insufficient to burn the contaminates off the points.anyone still using this type of system needs to use dist.cam lube very sparingly.your 2.0 Ford book is a good read.looking forward to reading some of your newer books that I recently became aware of.i wish to apply to 70s fiat 128/x1/9 sohc.large bore very short stroke . any experience with this engine or one of similar design?
been waiting for a video like this
I wish it was so simple.. as watching your videos.. and then you can be a decent engine builder... I really do wish it
What is your opinion of coated/plated electrodes?
Test power star plugs with zero ohm coils and wire plus big 3 grounding and and ferrite and non resistor plug
Another great video.
can someone please tell me what St Judes is that David mentions at the end of this video? cheers
How can you not know that?.
Have you never seen a SpaceX Falcon Dragon launch?
why would the hottest point/ the highest resistance point .. get the spark.. i guess you maybe able to get a longer spark forcing it through the hard path. but spark has to close to speed of light infact id think the spark is the after math of the energy that was transferred. like lightening and thunder