"The time is coming when people won’t listen to good teaching. Instead, they will look for teachers who will please them by telling them only what they are itching to hear." ~ 2 Timothy 4:3
Josh Wyzykowski think about this.. if they already don't want to obey God, and Love him.. because God did no Gift them Faith.. then they are not hear learning that there is no such thing as eternal conscious torment. no one believes there is No Judgment..and all should tremble before the Might of the Lord..
"There is no verse in the New Testament that unambiguously threatens eternal punishment. There are three that are regularly invoked by the Hellfire Club (my fond name for those who have some emotional commitment to the idea of a hell of eternal torment), but none of them really says what they imagine it says. Conversely, the seemingly very clear statements of universal salvation number quite high (47 at my last casual count)." ~ David Bentley Hart
You failed to mention all the verses that mention death as the penalty for sin. "The wages of sin is death". And you site 47 verses that you say are "very clear statements of universal salvation"! I would think that is an amazing stretch.
@@tullywilliams7789 Yes, death. NOT eternal conscious torment in a place where God is not. Scripture, tradition, and the creeds state he came to save us precisely from DEATH.
@@skypygmy1369 Revelation is not a soteriological text. But if you're going to take it as one, then there really is no "second death" because the very same people that are thrown into the lake of fire into the second death (cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters) are later seen in Chapter 22 walking around outside the walls of the New Jerusalem being beckoned to by those inside it's wall to "come wash your robes and drink freely of the water of life"
What about those who do not believe? Wouldn’t they repent and believe if they were given a second chance? The answer is no, they would not because their hearts are not changed simply because they die. Their hearts and minds “are at enmity” against God and won’t accept Him even when they see Him face to face. This is evidenced clearly in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. If ever someone should have repented when given a second chance to see clearly the truth, it was the rich man. But although he was in torment in hell, he only asked that Abraham send Lazarus back to earth to warn his brothers so they didn’t have to suffer the same fate. There was no repentance in his heart, only regret for where he found himself. Abraham’s answer says it all: “And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:31). Here we see that the witness of the Scriptures is sufficient for salvation for those who believe it, and no other revelation will bring about salvation to those who do not. No second, third or fourth chances would be enough to turn the heart of stone into a heart of flesh.
Oh we are so terrified of universalism. In order for love to be real, there must be free will. And that means some will go to hell, apparently. Doesn't anyone ever think God could do better than create a universe where death must be built in for there to be life?
Hell is just a word. The OT Hebrew word Sheol simply means the grave, a place of no conscious existence. People like Job wanted to go to thhe Biblical Hell to escape his suffering. In the NT, gehenna was uses as a symbol of eternal destruction.
Rob Bell and yourself are breaths of fresh air in what I believe to be the debilitating effects of mindless and shallow populist Evangelicalism. Here in South Africa the largest Christian Book Store (C.U.M Books) do not sell Rob's books anymore precisely because of his views on hell. Religious extremism at its best. Thank you for your good work.
mine too! people will hate, dont listen. the best thing to realize, is that people on earth called Jesus a heretic too. yet 2000 years later, here we are again. everyone has completely forgotten what Jesus was trying to teach, and when people like Bell or Boyd try to show people how to love... they're called heretics.
No, Phil, they're called heretics because they teach things outside of scripture. They bring their own philosophies and understandings to the Word of God, which Colossians 2:8 and Proverbs 3:5 warn against. This man will move you from the doctrines of the Bible and the certainty of salvation to a "spirituality" which asks and debates anything that goes against our own ideas. This man has no true understanding of the attributes of God, the sinfulness of man, or the sufficiency of scripture. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us it is inspired (God-breathed) and profitable for every believer; this is why it is to be studied in order for it to be rightly divided (2 Timothy 2:15). Neither Boyd or Bell does this.
check out Greg's other videos where he does a more thorough study of the topic. Annihilation is Biblically solid. Universalism is not and certainly not the hideous traditional teaching.
@@koriclaypool9548 I suppose that would be a consequence of omnipresence interpreted strictly, wouldn't it. And there's Psalm 139:8. I don't really know what I'm talking about, do I?
"I hope I'm wrong. I hope that everyone would come in to the kingdom?" Seems to me that if you believe Hell is just, you'd hope for justice I.e. hell for the. unrepentant. Weird. Sounds like you disagree with god on this.
"I'm going beyond scripture to say that I'm confident in that".. And there you have it. No fear before his eyes. Not afraid to believe and proclaim what he wants even though he knows that it is contrary to God's word. Be afraid, be very afraid.
+Shane Haffey Yes, he was saying he would be going beyond scripture to affirm universalism, a view he does not endorse. What is the issue here? He is saying he would like everyone to be saved (would you not like that?), but to say that for certain is going beyond scripture. This means he is "proclaiming what is contrary to God's word"? Please. BTW, many people, such as influential church fathers (Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom) DON"T feel that the belief in universal reconciliation is against Scripture, but indeed affirmed by it. Although I'm sure it feels smug and righteous to condemn people like you have in this comment, maybe you should read and do a little more research first.
+Dudeist Pianist Just a small sample of verses that clearly teach hell is eternal. To reject the eternality of hell is to reject God's Word. I have not condemned anyone, I am warning. Do not be deceived. Isaiah 66:24 - "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." Daniel 12:2 "..And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Mathew 25:46 "“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Shane Haffey neither of those verses indicate they will be in eternal conscious torment.. plus consider that everlasting probably meant Age During.. and just because a fire will not Go out..does that mean they will not Go Out. the worms eating their bodies/souls will likely just keep existing to eat souls/bodies. you do know when Jesus spoke to the masses he was being parabolic, EVERY time ..right?
@hithere You just plucked out a verse without any context to it. This verse is talking about God's Judgement and wrath to the nations and Israel's disobedience. This does not mean God will annihilate those in hell otherwise what's the point of God's warnings and Jesus's description saying eternal torment or eternal fire.
hithere how am I being judgmental all I did was point out your error look up revelation 20:10 where it says the devil and the false prophets will be tortured day and night forever it doesn’t get more clear than that. I don’t take out what I don’t like because I wouldn’t be a true Christian if I did I suggest the same to you.
hithere look I’m not here to judge you I am simply saying there is no verse in the Bible that says God will destroy every one in hell after a certain point, so your going to need evidence and not just saying I’ve studied because your words indicate the opposite.
hithere u mean “That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.” Psalms 92:7 This is talking about hell not individuals ceasing to exist. Jesus said broad is the road to destruction that doesn’t mean they stop existing it means broad is the way to Hell which the majority of biblical scholars agree with.
God is not the author of confusion. Boyd seems unsure on the reality of hell which Jesus made clear ,existed. Heaven or hell is the outcome, how you can play around with that or throw in some annihilation status is dangerous as Boyd is bringing in his opinions.The church of Laodicea is the church Jesus warned us about.Its the church of peoples opinions !!!
He isn't unsure at all. You should check out his lengthy teaching on hell and eternal punishment. It is very thorough, raises a lot of good questions and completely rejects the idea of eternal conscious torment in favor or the Biblical judgement being death. The lake of fire is the 2nd death, the metaphor is interpreted right there.
Whew! This guy is nuts. He may have some good points, but between the ADD, hyperactivity, and pressured speech, he induces much anxiety. Slow down, Greg, please!! Find a complete sentence and stick with it...
"The time is coming when people won’t listen to good teaching. Instead, they will look for teachers who will please them by telling them only what they are itching to hear."
~ 2 Timothy 4:3
Great verse to paste everywhere you disagree on!
Josh Wyzykowski think about this..
if they already don't want to obey God, and Love him.. because God did no Gift them Faith.. then they are not hear learning that there is no such thing as eternal conscious torment.
no one believes there is No Judgment..and all should tremble before the Might of the Lord..
Amen
If his interpretation of hell is correct, what is Greg’s interpretation of Luke 13:28? 🧐
It's probably a very twisted interpretation
@@luketidwell7057 "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" doesn't necessarily mean eternal conscious torment.
"There is no verse in the New Testament that unambiguously threatens eternal punishment. There are three that are regularly invoked by the Hellfire Club (my fond name for those who have some emotional commitment to the idea of a hell of eternal torment), but none of them really says what they imagine it says. Conversely, the seemingly very clear statements of universal salvation number quite high (47 at my last casual count)."
~ David Bentley Hart
Are there no verses or are there 3?
You failed to mention all the verses that mention death as the penalty for sin. "The wages of sin is death". And you site 47 verses that you say are "very clear statements of universal salvation"! I would think that is an amazing stretch.
@@tullywilliams7789 Yes, death. NOT eternal conscious torment in a place where God is not. Scripture, tradition, and the creeds state he came to save us precisely from DEATH.
@@Jordan-hz1wrwhat about the second death?
@@skypygmy1369 Revelation is not a soteriological text. But if you're going to take it as one, then there really is no "second death" because the very same people that are thrown into the lake of fire into the second death (cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters) are later seen in Chapter 22 walking around outside the walls of the New Jerusalem being beckoned to by those inside it's wall to "come wash your robes and drink freely of the water of life"
The wages of sin is death yes, but that was in another covenant, Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, especially of believers (1 Tim 4:10)
Marcel Roos
What about those who do not believe? Wouldn’t they repent and believe if they were given a second chance? The answer is no, they would not because their hearts are not changed simply because they die. Their hearts and minds “are at enmity” against God and won’t accept Him even when they see Him face to face. This is evidenced clearly in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. If ever someone should have repented when given a second chance to see clearly the truth, it was the rich man. But although he was in torment in hell, he only asked that Abraham send Lazarus back to earth to warn his brothers so they didn’t have to suffer the same fate. There was no repentance in his heart, only regret for where he found himself. Abraham’s answer says it all: “And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:31). Here we see that the witness of the Scriptures is sufficient for salvation for those who believe it, and no other revelation will bring about salvation to those who do not. No second, third or fourth chances would be enough to turn the heart of stone into a heart of flesh.
Can't wait for the teen version coming out this month.
Boyd says , Bell asks lots of questions.Bell also gives wrong answers.
Oh we are so terrified of universalism. In order for love to be real, there must be free will. And that means some will go to hell, apparently. Doesn't anyone ever think God could do better than create a universe where death must be built in for there to be life?
Considering how much shit gets thrown at greg boyd, I'm not sure he's the one pleasing people.
Hell is just a word. The OT Hebrew word Sheol simply means the grave, a place of no conscious existence. People like Job wanted to go to thhe Biblical Hell to escape his suffering. In the NT, gehenna was uses as a symbol of eternal destruction.
Rob Bell and yourself are breaths of fresh air in what I believe to be the debilitating effects of mindless and shallow populist Evangelicalism. Here in South Africa the largest Christian Book Store (C.U.M Books) do not sell Rob's books anymore precisely because of his views on hell. Religious extremism at its best. Thank you for your good work.
bell and boyd !!!! 2 of the greatest influences in my spiritual journey !!!
That's saying a lot, and don't take it as a compliment.
Thank you
mine too! people will hate, dont listen. the best thing to realize, is that people on earth called Jesus a heretic too. yet 2000 years later, here we are again. everyone has completely forgotten what Jesus was trying to teach, and when people like Bell or Boyd try to show people how to love... they're called heretics.
No, Phil, they're called heretics because they teach things outside of scripture. They bring their own philosophies and understandings to the Word of God, which Colossians 2:8 and Proverbs 3:5 warn against. This man will move you from the doctrines of the Bible and the certainty of salvation to a "spirituality" which asks and debates anything that goes against our own ideas. This man has no true understanding of the attributes of God, the sinfulness of man, or the sufficiency of scripture. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us it is inspired (God-breathed) and profitable for every believer; this is why it is to be studied in order for it to be rightly divided (2 Timothy 2:15). Neither Boyd or Bell does this.
I'll call it a compliment. God can handle all the hard questions.
Book, Chapter, Verse
check out Greg's other videos where he does a more thorough study of the topic. Annihilation is Biblically solid. Universalism is not and certainly not the hideous traditional teaching.
@@michaelnewzealand1888 where in the Bible does it speak of annihilation? This is a good topic to get into into.
If anyone can prove that scripture says God will torture some people forever, that would be the best proof the Bible is not inerrant.
You're wrong..you need to read the book That all shall be saved by David Bentley Hart....
why would Jesus warn that hell is a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
hithere if it isn't forever then why send someone to hell?
@@koriclaypool9548 Maybe because it's more merciful than forcing sinners to be in God's presence while they're still in rebellion.
@@GreenWeasel11 God is everywhere including in hell
@@koriclaypool9548 I suppose that would be a consequence of omnipresence interpreted strictly, wouldn't it. And there's Psalm 139:8. I don't really know what I'm talking about, do I?
@@GreenWeasel11 it would be nice if you quoted scripture.
Greg is a boss! I love you man!
"I hope I'm wrong. I hope that everyone would come in to the kingdom?" Seems to me that if you believe Hell is just, you'd hope for justice I.e. hell for the. unrepentant. Weird. Sounds like you disagree with god on this.
I can't buy into annihilism. I don't see it, but I do see mercy extended eternally.
check out Chris Date and Rethinking Hell on UA-cam. You may change your mind. It is Biblical the most solid view.
If god existed I would be dead
"I'm going beyond scripture to say that I'm confident in that".. And there you have it. No fear before his eyes. Not afraid to believe and proclaim what he wants even though he knows that it is contrary to God's word. Be afraid, be very afraid.
+Shane Haffey Yes, he was saying he would be going beyond scripture to affirm universalism, a view he does not endorse. What is the issue here? He is saying he would like everyone to be saved (would you not like that?), but to say that for certain is going beyond scripture. This means he is "proclaiming what is contrary to God's word"? Please. BTW, many people, such as influential church fathers (Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom) DON"T feel that the belief in universal reconciliation is against Scripture, but indeed affirmed by it. Although I'm sure it feels smug and righteous to condemn people like you have in this comment, maybe you should read and do a little more research first.
+Dudeist Pianist
Just a small sample of verses that clearly teach hell is eternal. To reject the eternality of hell is to reject God's Word.
I have not condemned anyone, I am warning. Do not be deceived.
Isaiah 66:24 - "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Daniel 12:2 "..And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
Mathew 25:46 "“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Shane Haffey neither of those verses indicate they will be in eternal conscious torment..
plus consider that everlasting probably meant Age During.. and just because a fire will not Go out..does that mean they will not Go Out.
the worms eating their bodies/souls will likely just keep existing to eat souls/bodies.
you do know when Jesus spoke to the masses he was being parabolic, EVERY time ..right?
One heretic affirming another heretic
This guy is wrong, wrong, wrong. Shaking my head big time here.
+Matt R Wow, compelling argument.
@hithere You just plucked out a verse without any context to it. This verse is talking about God's Judgement and wrath to the nations and Israel's disobedience. This does not mean God will annihilate those in hell otherwise what's the point of God's warnings and Jesus's description saying eternal torment or eternal fire.
hithere how am I being judgmental all I did was point out your error look up revelation 20:10 where it says the devil and the false prophets will be tortured day and night forever it doesn’t get more clear than that. I don’t take out what I don’t like because I wouldn’t be a true Christian if I did I suggest the same to you.
hithere look I’m not here to judge you I am simply saying there is no verse in the Bible that says God will destroy every one in hell after a certain point, so your going to need evidence and not just saying I’ve studied because your words indicate the opposite.
hithere u mean “That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.”
Psalms 92:7 This is talking about hell not individuals ceasing to exist. Jesus said broad is the road to destruction that doesn’t mean they stop existing it means broad is the way to Hell which the majority of biblical scholars agree with.
God is not the author of confusion. Boyd seems unsure on the reality of hell which Jesus made clear ,existed.
Heaven or hell is the outcome, how you can play around with that or throw in some annihilation status is dangerous as Boyd is bringing in his opinions.The church of Laodicea is the church Jesus warned us about.Its the church of peoples opinions !!!
He isn't unsure at all. You should check out his lengthy teaching on hell and eternal punishment. It is very thorough, raises a lot of good questions and completely rejects the idea of eternal conscious torment in favor or the Biblical judgement being death. The lake of fire is the 2nd death, the metaphor is interpreted right there.
You both condemn yourselves by what you preach. Redefining hell, that's what you are doing.
Does this guy even bible?
fresh air? fresh nausea...
Whew! This guy is nuts. He may have some good points, but between the ADD, hyperactivity, and pressured speech, he induces much anxiety. Slow down, Greg, please!! Find a complete sentence and stick with it...