Thanks for a very nice video and the clarifications, I will make use of those when making next planing tool. Tried shearing last but it looks very nice in your video without any such features.
You must have some deadly sharp grind on that cutter for it not to chatter on such a wide cut. Can you elaborate on the cutter grade and sharpening-honing preparation please?
The cutter is tungsten carbide. It is called a flat-tool. From my own notes: "The flat-tool should be prepared on a tool grinder so that the edge is very straight. Its rake could be between zero and +4 degrees, with a positive rake preferred to zero. Surface finish is usually better with positive rake. It should have side clearance angles of about 5 degrees (at least on the side leading the feed) and it is best if the leading side edge also has a small 30 to 45 degree chamfer so that the edge of the cut does not leave an abrupt 90 degree shoulder which is liable to cause minute breaking out of the cast iron at this line as the tool cuts. The end clearance angle should not be too great as this encourages chatter on any end cutting tool. Three degrees is probably the minimum and five the max." Mine is currently both about 3 degrees of rake and of clearance. However, although the tool should be quite sharp, it is not the sharpness that allows such broad end-tool cuts. All planer cutting that uses a broad end-cutting tool should be preformed using a goose-necked holder or alternatively some form of “spring-tool”. With such a toolholder, because the cutting edge is behind the point of spring - the toolholder's base, for example - the tool will back-off the depth of cut as the tool pressure increases. If instead, the cutting edge is held forward of the base of the holder, the opposite effect will probably be present. With such a broad-nosed end cutting tool as a flat-tool, a very slight increase in depth would then produce a much larger increase in tool pressure, and thus a still greater depth - an extremely unstable and undesirable situation (extreme chatter). Rees Acheson
There are three ways that I can think of to plane the underside way and rack-mount surface: 1) With the lathe still in its normal setup, use a tool that has a cutting edge reaching off to the side to cut under the way. This requires that the clapper be prevented from lifting, and that the feed occurs at the beginning of the cutting stroke; 2) Flip the lathe upside down on the table and reach down with a tool; 3) Flip the lathe over on its side and plane down the now-vertical surface, then flip it the other way to the the other way. Because I already have a tool made up to reach to the side and under, I would use method #1. Otherwise, if the lathe bed is not too tall, I would use method #2. I would use method #3 if #2 were not a good option and I did not already have a under-reach tool. However, it should be noted that most lathe jobs do not need to have these surfaces trued. This is because for most lathes the plate that rides on the back under-way is spring loaded with lock washers, allowing the plate to move slightly. Further, the clearance for this way is usually about 0.005" and that should allow for a non-straight way that was properly setup on the planer. For the rack, the small differences encountered would likely have no detrimental effect on the rack operation. Rees
With a resurface of this type, the only corrective action when re-fitting the headstock and leadscrew would be to shim the leadscrew bearings (and pinion rack) down the amount of cut, correct?
I know this is an old video but hopefully you check these posts. I have a SB9 that needs to have the bed planed. Can any old school shop can do this for me or does it take a specialized shop? I asked around but my contacts are all in big production shops that don't work with old machines.
Wow, i would love to have this done. I've seen on these old soft beds that the saddle wears a ridge to match that on the v-way, i imagine the saddle needs to be re-scraped as well?
Awesome! It would be great if you could explain the measurements you are taking and how you use the planer gauge. It looks like it went very quickly though I suspect that is deceptive.
I suspect that you meant that it would be better if I would explain things in the video as I was doing them. I don't for two reasons: 1) I don't like to record myself, visually, or otherwise; 2) I am trying to keep my wits about me, and so I just set up the camera, ignore it, and try not to make any mistakes. The measuring does not go at all quickly. In fact, I spend an inordinate amount of time measuring to insure that the cutting has few surprises. However, in the next reply I will explain what I was doing. Rees Acheson
As an explanation, I first set about determining the width of the vees - the horizontal distance between them. To do this I clamp two small vee-blocks over the carriage vees. The blocks were specially made for the purpose. Subtracting the width of one block from the outside measurement gives me the distance the centers of the vees. This should be done at each end. I will need this to cut the vees to the same width, and for the carriage that will be planed later. Next, using the same vee-blocks, I measure from their top surface to find a relative heights of the three vees from the planer table. I do this by setting a planer gauge equal to the vee-block using an indicator. Measuring the planer gauge gives me the height. Lastly, I need the height difference between the central vee and the flat. This height must be maintained in the finished product if the headstock is to fit without a great deal of refitting. The planer gauge is too big for the job and so I am using an adjustable parallel. I set the parallel to the same height as the top of the vee-block. This way I can maintain the same relationship during the machining. Performing the above on an unworn portion of the bed should reflect how it was made. But the beds are seldom straight and without twist so it is not always straight very forward. Several of these height measurements should be done over the length of the bed in order to glean how it was supposed to be. Usually you can figure out what is going on to account for the inevitable differences found. For example, the bed could have a twist that would make the heights of the vees vary. Or the bed could have a sag so that the middle is low. On top of these, the bed is usually worn unevenly. Incidentally, a planer gauge is a valuable tool for a planer. It can be set to a height using a micrometer and used to set the tool position. This is the traditional use of the gauge. However, a DRO makes this less useful and so its importance shifts to that shown in the video - obtaining measurements using an indicator, a planer gauge and a micrometer. One more thing regarding a planer gauge: it is particularly useful when trying to maintain equal heights on opposite sides of a part when the part is configured such that a right-hand and then a left-hand tool is to be used - like the two sides of a milling machine table dovetail. The two horizontal surfaces must be parallel, yet the tool must be changed. The planer gauge is used to transfer the measurement from one side to the other so that an indicator can be used to insure parallelism. Rees Acheson
@@reesacheson5577 thank you so much. I never considered the distance between the Vs but of course the planning operation would alter it. So many ways to screw this up! I think showing the setup would make a great video for us machinery nerds. It is a mystery to most of us. Look forward to more content.
@@reesacheson5577 I totally understand, I get so tonque tied and lose my train of thought so easily in my videos. I recently got a Planer and hope to start working on my lathe beds in the distant future. Where did you get the special cutters and tool holders for the wide cuts? I assuming HSS?
Hardened ways cannot be planed. They must be ground. Where to get planing done? I suspect that it would be very difficult to find a planer shop to do this work. There are just not many planers left - the last ones being made about 70 years ago. The alternative is grinding, and I suspect that that would be quite expensive. Planing the ways of a lathe like the one in this video would take about 4 hours, with about the last hour of that doing the actual cutting. My rate was only $50/hr due to the inexpense of the machine and its tooling. I have no idea what others would charge. However, keep in mind that the planed surface, while it is straight enough, is not suitable as a sliding bearing and it therefore must be scraped to produce a very smooth and slippery surface. Hand scraping would take between 4 and 8 hrs - the span determined by the visual spectacularity of the result. Presumably a power scraper would take less time, but I have never used one. After the bed, the saddle must be scraped to fit the bed. So the initial planing time is only a portion of the job required. Rees
That is a good question. Practically speaking, insuring that the table moved full stroke would mean that most jobs would take far longer to do than if the stroke were set to the job length. Since planers, with only a single edge cutting, are already considered slow, this would likely be unacceptable. However, your question was directed toward wear pattern. If the planer had a bed that was long enough to accommodate the table stroke without overhang, then the center of the bed would, as you suggest, tend to wear more than the ends. This intern should cause the table to wear more at the ends as they encountered the higher ends of the bed. In practice, though, since planers are so long, the table tends to sag into the worn bed and thus the table ends wearing more would be very little. Further, during leveling of the planer, which should occur regularly, the more worn center portion would be jacked up - largely compensating for the wear. Note that shorter planers, like mine, that are rigid will react little to the jacking effect. But the bed on my planer is not long enough to accommodate the entire stroke. It was made in about 1905 and the table at the end of its stroke overhangs the ends of the bed by a little less than 2 feet. This has the effect of keeping the wear very even - both to the table and the bed. I do not know if this was intentionally part of the design, but is seems to have had the effect. In about 2000 I scraped the bed and the table ways. I do not think that they had ever been rescraped before and after nearly 100 years of use they were remarkably straight! The center of the bed was not high or low, and the ends of the table not high or low. While it is not a good idea to base a theory on one observation, it would seem that the shorter bed had the effect of distributing the wear evenly. That leaves shorter, more rigid planers that are newer than mine that have full length beds. These would indeed be subject to wear as you worry. But again practically speaking, planers are not like milling machines or lathes in that the table moves rapidly enough that they roll on a film of oil - the ways should not actually come into contact. Wear is thus minimal. That is, if the oil is heavy enough, if the ways are wiped down after periods of non-use to get rid of the dust, and the ways are straight enough so that contact is not forced at local spots. At least, all of the above is my opinion on the matter. Again, good question. Rees
@@reesacheson5577 Hi Rees. Thank you so much for that detailed reply. That is all so very interesting. I have certainly learnt some valuable principles and theories from your explanation. You must go through quite a lot of oil if the table is working on the hydrodynamic principle as it must be a total loss oil system, unless the oil is very thick. There is a maglev train that seems to work well. Maybe someday we will see a magnetically levitated planer table.
@@chrisford9045 The oil is recovered. On a full length bed, oil that escapes the ends is caught in a trough at each end and drains back to the sump where it is pumped back to the underside of the ways. On an old planer such as mine, where the bed is not full length, each end has a small trough in the ways to catch most of the oil. These need to be manually emptied and transferred to the center oil pockets about twice a day. I use a turkey baster. Then at the very end of the way is a sharp edge that scrapes excess oil into a cavity that leads to the end trough. Very little oil escapes this process, and most of it is when the table is stopped at end of stroke and oil accumulates at the bottom of the way until it drips off onto the floor. In my case, I installed two angle iron troughs under each extended way to catch this oil so that it, too, can be reused. The center oil pockets that I mentioned on my machine contains a roller that is pressed with a spring against the passing table way. As it rolls it picks up oil from the pocket and deposits it on the table way. As you seem to have guessed, it matters that the table speed remains fairly constant or the table might rise a bit as it travels faster (deepening the cut slightly). The difference is very slight, but when planing a lathe bed a tenth is too much. My return speed is therefore the same as my cut speed. Although I have never measured the difference due to speed. I was taught this 50 years ago and it seems logical. Rees
My shop rate is $50 per hour and a lathe bed seems to take between 4 and 8 hours. If the carriage is also to be planed it take more time, probably an additional 6 to 10 hours.
I seem to get the opportunity to plane a lathe bed about once a year and would be glad to consider yours. However, I live in New Hampshire, USA and so the likelihood of you being near enough to deliver it is slim.
Hi and thanks for the quick reply, I’m located in Ottawa area in Canada approximately 6hrs drive. I had the intent of having my lathe bed ground by Kellar Machine Rebuilding in Kingston (1hr drive) but they do not seem to be in business anymore. I saw your work here and read about it on Practical machinist, a planer seems more adequate for my Southbend 14.5 by 6ft. The other nearest shop for me would be Stan Canada which is the same distance as you but they offer grinding but their operations is so large I don’t see how they could quote something affordable.
@@francoishamel6242 Coincidentally, the lathe in this video belongs to a guy who lives in Indianapolis. He drove East to drop off two lathes to be planed. He hiked the Adirondacks for a week and then drove the lathes back home. If you would like to make the drive, I will try accommodate. As I suspect you are aware, scraping is required after planing. Scraping is generally done by the owner. Grinding does not require this step. Rees
Hi again, I will do a little more research on my lathe’s date of manufacture but I’m almost certain it doesn’t have hardened ways. I was under the impression that whether ground or planed, soft beds required scraping to promote lubrication and avoid galling. And yes I would scrape the lathe myself.
@@francoishamel6242 I am no expert on hardened ways, but see if a sharp file will easily cut the top of the vee. I gather that Southbend did not harden the ends - or at least as hard - as the usable section, so the test would best be done away from the ends. Regarding scraping of ground beds, I think a scraped surface is superior to a ground surface in that it is more slippery and does not contain the minute scratches left by grinding. Scraping to a good straight edge also removes error that has been ground into the bed due to the setup or other factors. However, I have never heard of scraping a bed that has been ground. Grinding is considered all done. As for galling, many people think that a properly scraped surface contains many little pockets (the flaking) to hold oil so that the carriage will slide well over it. I do not subscribe to this theory. The pockets for oil also become places for grit to accumulate and then get sucked in under the carriage. Once the leading ends of the carriage become banana shaped as a result, the pockets are no longer the cause - grit can freely enter without the pockets. Instead, I scrape the surface flat, using a large radius scraper that leaves no pockets (and I do not do flaking). The mating surface is then scraped to fit and it's surface is used to distribute or hold oil. This because the mating surface is hidden - it is never exposed to the shop and its particles of grit. So, if grinding, and you are worried about holding oil, do the oil holding on the hidden surface - the carriage. that's my 2 cents on the matter. If this discussion is to move on to possible arrangements to actually do the job, I suggest that we converse by email so as not to bore others. My address can be found in the ABOUT section. Rees
I charge $50 per hour and a bed seems to take about 5 hours. The longest was 8 hrs and the shortest was 4 hrs. I keep thinking that I will break the 4 hr record, but it always seems to take longer. The actual cutting usually takes less than an hour. If you are thinking of asking me to plane them, the critical thing might be your location. I live in SW New Hampshire. USA. My email can be found in ABOUT.
@@reesacheson5577 Unfortunately im on the other side of the country from you, (Wa). I wish I was closer as I certainly would employ your services. Thanks for the reply. cheers
Hi Rees. How do you get on with hardened beds? I set up a grinder on the Reicher and Knodler to do a Weiler toolroom lathe bed. It worked a treat but was very time consuming. I have a CVA 1A toolroom lathe to do next. Do you think the flat tool would be effective? I get the feeling it would end up a bit of a mess. A penny for your thoughts. Cheers
The tool pressure for a flat-tool on hardened ways would be a few orders of magnitude too large. A small radius tool might penetrate, but if it did, you'd have to grind to clean things up. I have only "planed" one hardened way bed, a Monarch about 40 years ago, and I used a large tool-post grinder. It took quite a bit longer to do than if it had been planable, but the real problem was the grinding swath on the planer. I should have spent more effort at guarding the planer. All way surfaces are far too exposed for the dust that was flying around. Now, with the planer in such good shape, I could not be persuaded to do it again. Rees
Rees, I love watching your videos and plan to restore a planer of my own some day. Do you spend a lot of time dialing in the face angles on trapezoidal ways? Or do you assume the carriage will just be scraped to match whatever the geometry is when you’re done?
@@thomasutley I am not sure I understand your use of the term trapezoidal ways, but since you mention making the carriage fit them, I assume you mean that the bed vees are not of proper angle. Such incorrect angle could have two causes that I can think of: 1) machined incorrectly to begin with; 2) worn very badly in places. In both cases, I would probably try to match the angle of the un-worn portion so that minimal material would need to be removed in both the carriage and the bed. However, if the original angle was very close to a standard, 45 deg for example, I would probably machine to that standard, instead. If the carriage is also to be planed, I would plane it to match the bed configuration. If not, I might alter the vee placement on the bed to match the carriage. This has never been the case for me though. Rees Acheson
@@reesacheson5577 Thanks, that’s what I was looking for. I shouldn’t interchange the terms trapezoidal ways and vee ways-same thing, depending on the machine forums I frequent. My lathe is a 1943 South Bend 16” x 8’ bed. It has been ground and scraped to what is probably better than new by a shop in Milwaukee. My machine was a basket case-it required 0.115” of material removal between the bed and saddle due to abuse by the previous owner sanding pool cues. All good now!
Thanks for a very nice video and the clarifications, I will make use of those when making next planing tool. Tried shearing last but it looks very nice in your video without any such features.
Excellent Work !! Thanks for Sharing Ress..
1:25 pretty obvious to see the wear in the middle of the bed.
You must have some deadly sharp grind on that cutter for it not to chatter on such a wide cut. Can you elaborate on the cutter grade and sharpening-honing preparation please?
The cutter is tungsten carbide. It is called a flat-tool. From my own notes:
"The flat-tool should be prepared on a tool grinder so that the edge is very straight. Its rake could be between zero and +4 degrees, with a positive rake preferred to zero. Surface finish is usually better with positive rake. It should have side clearance angles of about 5 degrees (at least on the side leading the feed) and it is best if the leading side edge also has a small 30 to 45 degree chamfer so that the edge of the cut does not leave an abrupt 90 degree shoulder which is liable to cause minute breaking out of the cast iron at this line as the tool cuts. The end clearance angle should not be too great as this encourages chatter on any end cutting tool. Three degrees is probably the minimum and five the max." Mine is currently both about 3 degrees of rake and of clearance.
However, although the tool should be quite sharp, it is not the sharpness that allows such broad end-tool cuts. All planer cutting that uses a broad end-cutting tool should be preformed using a goose-necked holder or alternatively some form of “spring-tool”. With such a toolholder, because the cutting edge is behind the point of spring - the toolholder's base, for example - the tool will back-off the depth of cut as the tool pressure increases.
If instead, the cutting edge is held forward of the base of the holder, the opposite effect will probably be present. With such a broad-nosed end cutting tool as a flat-tool, a very slight increase in depth would then produce a much larger increase in tool pressure, and thus a still greater depth - an extremely unstable and undesirable situation (extreme chatter).
Rees Acheson
Hello. You show how you plan the prisms, the flat guides on top, and how do you plan the lower flat guides? thanks
There are three ways that I can think of to plane the underside way and rack-mount surface:
1) With the lathe still in its normal setup, use a tool that has a cutting edge reaching off to the side to cut under the way. This requires that the clapper be prevented from lifting, and that the feed occurs at the beginning of the cutting stroke;
2) Flip the lathe upside down on the table and reach down with a tool;
3) Flip the lathe over on its side and plane down the now-vertical surface, then flip it the other way to the the other way.
Because I already have a tool made up to reach to the side and under, I would use method #1. Otherwise, if the lathe bed is not too tall, I would use method #2. I would use method #3 if #2 were not a good option and I did not already have a under-reach tool.
However, it should be noted that most lathe jobs do not need to have these surfaces trued. This is because for most lathes the plate that rides on the back under-way is spring loaded with lock washers, allowing the plate to move slightly. Further, the clearance for this way is usually about 0.005" and that should allow for a non-straight way that was properly setup on the planer. For the rack, the small differences encountered would likely have no detrimental effect on the rack operation.
Rees
With a resurface of this type, the only corrective action when re-fitting the headstock and leadscrew would be to shim the leadscrew bearings (and pinion rack) down the amount of cut, correct?
With this type of lathe, yes, that is the only reasonable correction that I can think of.
I know this is an old video but hopefully you check these posts. I have a SB9 that needs to have the bed planed. Can any old school shop can do this for me or does it take a specialized shop? I asked around but my contacts are all in big production shops that don't work with old machines.
It might be difficult to find a working planer. Unfortunately, they have become quite rare.
Rees
Wow, i would love to have this done. I've seen on these old soft beds that the saddle wears a ridge to match that on the v-way, i imagine the saddle needs to be re-scraped as well?
Yes, both the saddle and bed need to be scraped. Sometimes the saddle gets planed, too. Doing so simplifies restoring geometry.
Awesome! It would be great if you could explain the measurements you are taking and how you use the planer gauge. It looks like it went very quickly though I suspect that is deceptive.
I suspect that you meant that it would be better if I would explain things in the video as I was doing them. I don't for two reasons: 1) I don't like to record myself, visually, or otherwise; 2) I am trying to keep my wits about me, and so I just set up the camera, ignore it, and try not to make any mistakes. The measuring does not go at all quickly. In fact, I spend an inordinate amount of time measuring to insure that the cutting has few surprises.
However, in the next reply I will explain what I was doing.
Rees Acheson
As an explanation, I first set about determining the width of the vees - the horizontal distance between them. To do this I clamp two small vee-blocks over the carriage vees. The blocks were specially made for the purpose. Subtracting the width of one block from the outside measurement gives me the distance the centers of the vees. This should be done at each end. I will need this to cut the vees to the same width, and for the carriage that will be planed later.
Next, using the same vee-blocks, I measure from their top surface to find a relative heights of the three vees from the planer table. I do this by setting a planer gauge equal to the vee-block using an indicator. Measuring the planer gauge gives me the height.
Lastly, I need the height difference between the central vee and the flat. This height must be maintained in the finished product if the headstock is to fit without a great deal of refitting. The planer gauge is too big for the job and so I am using an adjustable parallel. I set the parallel to the same height as the top of the vee-block. This way I can maintain the same relationship during the machining.
Performing the above on an unworn portion of the bed should reflect how it was made. But the beds are seldom straight and without twist so it is not always straight very forward. Several of these height measurements should be done over the length of the bed in order to glean how it was supposed to be. Usually you can figure out what is going on to account for the inevitable differences found. For example, the bed could have a twist that would make the heights of the vees vary. Or the bed could have a sag so that the middle is low. On top of these, the bed is usually worn unevenly.
Incidentally, a planer gauge is a valuable tool for a planer. It can be set to a height using a micrometer and used to set the tool position. This is the traditional use of the gauge. However, a DRO makes this less useful and so its importance shifts to that shown in the video - obtaining measurements using an indicator, a planer gauge and a micrometer.
One more thing regarding a planer gauge: it is particularly useful when trying to maintain equal heights on opposite sides of a part when the part is configured such that a right-hand and then a left-hand tool is to be used - like the two sides of a milling machine table dovetail. The two horizontal surfaces must be parallel, yet the tool must be changed. The planer gauge is used to transfer the measurement from one side to the other so that an indicator can be used to insure parallelism.
Rees Acheson
@@reesacheson5577 thank you so much. I never considered the distance between the Vs but of course the planning operation would alter it. So many ways to screw this up! I think showing the setup would make a great video for us machinery nerds. It is a mystery to most of us. Look forward to more content.
@@reesacheson5577 Thanks so much for the detail...I know it's not easy to follow up and fully explain things.
@@reesacheson5577 I totally understand, I get so tonque tied and lose my train of thought so easily in my videos. I recently got a Planer and hope to start working on my lathe beds in the distant future.
Where did you get the special cutters and tool holders for the wide cuts? I assuming HSS?
what doc?
Very interesting. Do you have flame hardened beds? Where do you get this work done and what does it cost?
Thanks,
Paul
Hardened ways cannot be planed. They must be ground.
Where to get planing done? I suspect that it would be very difficult to find a planer shop to do this work. There are just not many planers left - the last ones being made about 70 years ago. The alternative is grinding, and I suspect that that would be quite expensive.
Planing the ways of a lathe like the one in this video would take about 4 hours, with about the last hour of that doing the actual cutting. My rate was only $50/hr due to the inexpense of the machine and its tooling. I have no idea what others would charge.
However, keep in mind that the planed surface, while it is straight enough, is not suitable as a sliding bearing and it therefore must be scraped to produce a very smooth and slippery surface. Hand scraping would take between 4 and 8 hrs - the span determined by the visual spectacularity of the result. Presumably a power scraper would take less time, but I have never used one.
After the bed, the saddle must be scraped to fit the bed. So the initial planing time is only a portion of the job required.
Rees
Would it not be better to let your planer run the full distance of its table travel to minimize uneven wear on its sliding surfaces?
That is a good question.
Practically speaking, insuring that the table moved full stroke would mean that most jobs would take far longer to do than if the stroke were set to the job length. Since planers, with only a single edge cutting, are already considered slow, this would likely be unacceptable.
However, your question was directed toward wear pattern. If the planer had a bed that was long enough to accommodate the table stroke without overhang, then the center of the bed would, as you suggest, tend to wear more than the ends. This intern should cause the table to wear more at the ends as they encountered the higher ends of the bed. In practice, though, since planers are so long, the table tends to sag into the worn bed and thus the table ends wearing more would be very little. Further, during leveling of the planer, which should occur regularly, the more worn center portion would be jacked up - largely compensating for the wear. Note that shorter planers, like mine, that are rigid will react little to the jacking effect.
But the bed on my planer is not long enough to accommodate the entire stroke. It was made in about 1905 and the table at the end of its stroke overhangs the ends of the bed by a little less than 2 feet. This has the effect of keeping the wear very even - both to the table and the bed. I do not know if this was intentionally part of the design, but is seems to have had the effect. In about 2000 I scraped the bed and the table ways. I do not think that they had ever been rescraped before and after nearly 100 years of use they were remarkably straight! The center of the bed was not high or low, and the ends of the table not high or low. While it is not a good idea to base a theory on one observation, it would seem that the shorter bed had the effect of distributing the wear evenly.
That leaves shorter, more rigid planers that are newer than mine that have full length beds. These would indeed be subject to wear as you worry. But again practically speaking, planers are not like milling machines or lathes in that the table moves rapidly enough that they roll on a film of oil - the ways should not actually come into contact. Wear is thus minimal. That is, if the oil is heavy enough, if the ways are wiped down after periods of non-use to get rid of the dust, and the ways are straight enough so that contact is not forced at local spots.
At least, all of the above is my opinion on the matter. Again, good question.
Rees
@@reesacheson5577 Hi Rees. Thank you so much for that detailed reply.
That is all so very interesting.
I have certainly learnt some valuable principles and theories from your explanation.
You must go through quite a lot of oil if the table is working on the hydrodynamic principle as it must be a total loss oil system, unless the oil is very thick.
There is a maglev train that seems to work well. Maybe someday we will see a magnetically levitated planer table.
@@chrisford9045 The oil is recovered. On a full length bed, oil that escapes the ends is caught in a trough at each end and drains back to the sump where it is pumped back to the underside of the ways.
On an old planer such as mine, where the bed is not full length, each end has a small trough in the ways to catch most of the oil. These need to be manually emptied and transferred to the center oil pockets about twice a day. I use a turkey baster.
Then at the very end of the way is a sharp edge that scrapes excess oil into a cavity that leads to the end trough. Very little oil escapes this process, and most of it is when the table is stopped at end of stroke and oil accumulates at the bottom of the way until it drips off onto the floor. In my case, I installed two angle iron troughs under each extended way to catch this oil so that it, too, can be reused.
The center oil pockets that I mentioned on my machine contains a roller that is pressed with a spring against the passing table way. As it rolls it picks up oil from the pocket and deposits it on the table way.
As you seem to have guessed, it matters that the table speed remains fairly constant or the table might rise a bit as it travels faster (deepening the cut slightly). The difference is very slight, but when planing a lathe bed a tenth is too much. My return speed is therefore the same as my cut speed. Although I have never measured the difference due to speed. I was taught this 50 years ago and it seems logical.
Rees
Great video! I have 2 south bend lathe, 9A and a 16.. I know this video is a year old but I wander what it cost to resurface them?
My shop rate is $50 per hour and a lathe bed seems to take between 4 and 8 hours. If the carriage is also to be planed it take more time, probably an additional 6 to 10 hours.
A deal at twice the price!! Great work.. old school rules.
FANTASTIC!!!!
Do you offer this service frequently? I'm looking at restoring 14 1/2 Southbend toolroom lathe.
I seem to get the opportunity to plane a lathe bed about once a year and would be glad to consider yours. However, I live in New Hampshire, USA and so the likelihood of you being near enough to deliver it is slim.
Hi and thanks for the quick reply, I’m located in Ottawa area in Canada approximately 6hrs drive. I had the intent of having my lathe bed ground by Kellar Machine Rebuilding in Kingston (1hr drive) but they do not seem to be in business anymore. I saw your work here and read about it on Practical machinist, a planer seems more adequate for my Southbend 14.5 by 6ft. The other nearest shop for me would be Stan Canada which is the same distance as you but they offer grinding but their operations is so large I don’t see how they could quote something affordable.
@@francoishamel6242 Coincidentally, the lathe in this video belongs to a guy who lives in Indianapolis. He drove East to drop off two lathes to be planed. He hiked the Adirondacks for a week and then drove the lathes back home.
If you would like to make the drive, I will try accommodate. As I suspect you are aware, scraping is required after planing. Scraping is generally done by the owner. Grinding does not require this step.
Rees
Hi again, I will do a little more research on my lathe’s date of manufacture but I’m almost certain it doesn’t have hardened ways. I was under the impression that whether ground or planed, soft beds required scraping to promote lubrication and avoid galling. And yes I would scrape the lathe myself.
@@francoishamel6242 I am no expert on hardened ways, but see if a sharp file will easily cut the top of the vee. I gather that Southbend did not harden the ends - or at least as hard - as the usable section, so the test would best be done away from the ends.
Regarding scraping of ground beds, I think a scraped surface is superior to a ground surface in that it is more slippery and does not contain the minute scratches left by grinding. Scraping to a good straight edge also removes error that has been ground into the bed due to the setup or other factors. However, I have never heard of scraping a bed that has been ground. Grinding is considered all done.
As for galling, many people think that a properly scraped surface contains many little pockets (the flaking) to hold oil so that the carriage will slide well over it. I do not subscribe to this theory. The pockets for oil also become places for grit to accumulate and then get sucked in under the carriage. Once the leading ends of the carriage become banana shaped as a result, the pockets are no longer the cause - grit can freely enter without the pockets.
Instead, I scrape the surface flat, using a large radius scraper that leaves no pockets (and I do not do flaking). The mating surface is then scraped to fit and it's surface is used to distribute or hold oil. This because the mating surface is hidden - it is never exposed to the shop and its particles of grit. So, if grinding, and you are worried about holding oil, do the oil holding on the hidden surface - the carriage. that's my 2 cents on the matter.
If this discussion is to move on to possible arrangements to actually do the job, I suggest that we converse by email so as not to bore others. My address can be found in the ABOUT section.
Rees
How much do you charge for a job like this? I have two southbend 9a 48" beds that need this treatment
I charge $50 per hour and a bed seems to take about 5 hours. The longest was 8 hrs and the shortest was 4 hrs. I keep thinking that I will break the 4 hr record, but it always seems to take longer. The actual cutting usually takes less than an hour.
If you are thinking of asking me to plane them, the critical thing might be your location. I live in SW New Hampshire. USA. My email can be found in ABOUT.
@@reesacheson5577 Unfortunately im on the other side of the country from you, (Wa). I wish I was closer as I certainly would employ your services. Thanks for the reply.
cheers
Very good!
Hi Rees. How do you get on with hardened beds? I set up a grinder on the Reicher and Knodler to do a Weiler toolroom lathe bed. It worked a treat but was very time consuming. I have a CVA 1A toolroom lathe to do next. Do you think the flat tool would be effective? I get the feeling it would end up a bit of a mess. A penny for your thoughts. Cheers
The tool pressure for a flat-tool on hardened ways would be a few orders of magnitude too large. A small radius tool might penetrate, but if it did, you'd have to grind to clean things up.
I have only "planed" one hardened way bed, a Monarch about 40 years ago, and I used a large tool-post grinder. It took quite a bit longer to do than if it had been planable, but the real problem was the grinding swath on the planer. I should have spent more effort at guarding the planer. All way surfaces are far too exposed for the dust that was flying around. Now, with the planer in such good shape, I could not be persuaded to do it again.
Rees
Well done! This one didn't look that bad.
Contact information for having a lathe bed planed?, (Clausing 6300)
racheson251@comcast.net
I live in Alstead, New Hampshire, USA and so transportation could be a problem.
Rees Acheson
@@reesacheson5577 Cody Wyoming
Rees, I love watching your videos and plan to restore a planer of my own some day. Do you spend a lot of time dialing in the face angles on trapezoidal ways? Or do you assume the carriage will just be scraped to match whatever the geometry is when you’re done?
@@thomasutley I am not sure I understand your use of the term trapezoidal ways, but since you mention making the carriage fit them, I assume you mean that the bed vees are not of proper angle.
Such incorrect angle could have two causes that I can think of: 1) machined incorrectly to begin with; 2) worn very badly in places.
In both cases, I would probably try to match the angle of the un-worn portion so that minimal material would need to be removed in both the carriage and the bed. However, if the original angle was very close to a standard, 45 deg for example, I would probably machine to that standard, instead.
If the carriage is also to be planed, I would plane it to match the bed configuration. If not, I might alter the vee placement on the bed to match the carriage. This has never been the case for me though.
Rees Acheson
@@reesacheson5577 Thanks, that’s what I was looking for. I shouldn’t interchange the terms trapezoidal ways and vee ways-same thing, depending on the machine forums I frequent. My lathe is a 1943 South Bend 16” x 8’ bed. It has been ground and scraped to what is probably better than new by a shop in Milwaukee. My machine was a basket case-it required 0.115” of material removal between the bed and saddle due to abuse by the previous owner sanding pool cues. All good now!