You should have mentioned GA400 inside the perimeter which was the last, but very important connection to 400 North of 285. It was built through expensive neighborhoods and was paid by a 50 cent toll for 20 years. Also this GA400 project is nearly as big as I-285's 4 elevated express lanes which will be built simultaneously with 400 or soon after.
@@ericheardugathat one "small" extension was the part everyone drove on to get in and out of Atlanta that direction. The main thing that changed though was that whole corridor absolutely blew up with growth and now it doesn't clear up till you get far up on the northern end of it.
Transit is attractive if you have proper frequency (at least 10 mins). If you police the trains properly, they would be safer, but as always, that costs money the state refuses to spend. MARTA is constrained by their budget. It is also the only transit agency that receives no money from their state government. It was created the same time as the DC Metro and look at where that goes. You get what you pay for.
It's not just the convenience of cars. People are rightfully scared of Marta bringing crime to their safe suburbs. Let be honest for a sec here and look at the problems a Marta stop has brought to Lenox Mall.
@@Vinny.XLive here in Georgia, the rise in crime around Lenox corresponded with the rise of crime in other cities in other states at the same time. MARTA did not facilitate that crime, it was just opened around the same time and has been scapegoated by people who are against transit expansion. Source: I lived in Atlanta, Sandy Springs and Alpharetta (Another city that refused expansion)
When the transit systems were created is immaterial - it's when and how the cities themselves were created that matters. Washington was laid out in the late 18th century, a time of foot and horse traffic, more or less on a tabula rasa by two dudes whose classical vision was largely unconstrained by the politics of a government in infancy or by a preexisting population with a preexisting lifestyle (apart from a few villages). This layout dictates a certain maximum traffic speed, even for the cars that came later: the sheer number of streets in DC, the resulting number of intersections, the percentage of those intersections that involved more than just two streets, the angles at which those streets intersect - all of this means that even when the broader avenues are empty at 4AM, there is only so fast you can drive from Point A to Point B. So Metro's creators were introducing a travel mode that was no just inherently faster than the transport modes the city was designed for, but inherently faster than the cars Metro was competing with. _Whereas,_ 90 to 95% of Atlanta was laid out _after_ the invention of the automobile (and the entire corridor of this extension project was laid out 50 years ago) and the "still-old" 5% of Atlanta had been significantly altered in the 70s to accommodate and maximize the flow of cars. Atlanta quite literally prioritizes the convenience of cars driven by people over the convenience of people not in cars. Cars move faster in Atlanta than in DC with comparable traffic; so compared to DC, MARTA trains have always faced tougher competition from cars, with less of a walking culture for trains to improve on. The one advantage MARTA and Atlanta have is the history of trams in the city, which the road layout actually still favors and which I believe will, eventually, make a comeback in older parts of town. TLDR, Metro has always been able to claim it's _faster_ than driving. MARTA at best has only been able to claim it's _as fast as, but cheaper and more convenient than,_ driving. A sales pitch that really only resonates when you have to go to the airport.
@@cisium1184It’s interesting how the city blueprint was laid out after the invention of cars, when it was established and rebuilt from 1837 to 1867. I’ll have to further investigate that. I’m assuming you mean the majority of midtown and Buckhead, and outside of the core original downtown.
Absolutely love this presentation. I’m a life long Georgia (metro Atlanta) resident (76yrs). Informative. Professional. Thought provoking. Reality. Excellent work!
The harsh truth is for most American cities, the best public transport option to develop isn't rail, its busses. Most US cities (and their subburbs) are built around cars, and continue to be. And you can't flip a switch to change that. Busses leverage that existing infrastructure, especially if lanes are dedicated to public transit that skip traffic. The problem is, *busses are not sexy.* They have a terrible, frankly hyperbolic, reputation. Which makes it harder to get more investment in it. Making an effort to reform the image of bus transit in the US will do more benefit to US transportation than hundreds of failed, half completed light rails that always plan on making a profit the next year; this time for sure.
If there was a bus system I could take to get from my home to work, I would gladly pay for it. Right now, I vanpool with 4 other people so I don't have to drive as much but I know that's not available to many.
The best public transportation is one that people would use. Like you said, bus has a terrible reputation (well deserved crap reputation here in Atlanta). Georgia has no BRT lines and has no proposed BRT lines for bus to be built. Every "express" bus proposal uses a shared car lane for much of the route. We can look at the car express lanes on I-85 and 75 to see that those suffer standstill rush hour traffic. Why would anyone give up there own car to sit in traffic on a fake rapid bus service?
I say this as an Atl born and raised, and as a truck driver, Atl is by far one of the worst designed and worst maintained cities I've ever driven through. And If adding more lanes actually worked then I75 NB/SB at 12 lanes wide wouldn't have traffic. Our leaders are too focused on money and commercial/housing development and are actively ignoring the mounting problems with our infrastructure. Multiple parts of I75/285/20 flood when there's heavy rainfall and I've yet to see anyone address that.
Since you're a truck driver I'm sure you'd know but I heard that semi truck drivers aren't supposed to use Atlanta's city streets and have to drop their loads at locations outside of the city. Is that true?
@dariusbrock2351 No, I haven't heard of anything like that. Of course there are certain streets you can't go down but you'll just have to take the truck route.
To be honest, they are simply incompetent and know little about city structures, urban walkable streets, and how to even layout desirable city blueprints, this is America. Places in Europe and other nations would put every city in America to shame, even Rabat, Morocco. By the way DC native, the issue is all over America, but living in GA, you want to see improvements where you reside or pay taxes. Meanwhile in Cobb dummies are still putting up “vote no for m-splost”, and the first to complain about traffic getting worst with no solution. Cobb and the rest of the suburbs across the US continue to build low density single homes, further accelerating deforestation and sprawl.
@@dariusbrock2351 They can use the interstates inside the perimeter for local deliveries. The don't unload at a remote location to be picked up again. Very wasteful of fuel and more polluting.
Great job on sharing this information and your honest opinions I agree with 100 percent. Voting matters, being informed matters, and knowledge is power. Thank you!
I4 Ultimate in Orlando is another example of Public-Private Partnership, with a consortium of construction companies collecting the revenue from the Express Lanes for the next several decades. While I also have an issue with the private ownership, I cannot deny that traffic has improved in the rebuilt areas (minus some trouble spots at peak times). As long as toll prices are kept reasonable as they are now, I can begrudgingly accept the realities as to why our state DOT's are increasingly selling out to private companies.
DMV also has some tolls that can rack up faster than taking the PA Turnpike or any one of Port Authority's bridges into NYC, but considering how bad traffic can get, it can be worth it. I just can't stand how it's only one-direction.
Hey it may not be fair or equitable, but "you must be high income to live here" IS an effective way of keeping the riff-raff out. The same reason suburbs don't want public transit despite having to deal with traffic, it's a barrier to entry. "you must at least be able to afford a car to live here". Combine it with stringent emissions and safety inspections for cars to force old beat up cars off the road unless they get expensive repairs, and you've got a very effective means of keeping all of those peasants who can't afford a new car out of your town.
@@Michael-uc2pnYes, and then all the riff raff end up in the downtown, and the downtown is ruined for everyone. It makes your city a non-place with no real focal point worth going to.
@@BHPOfficial They also demand that the inner city widen the roads and build more parking everywhere to cater to themselves and their cars. That is also how cities get ruined.
As someone who lives OTP more than a decade, and does not own a car, and has not owned a car in almost a decade, it's actually surprising how well one can get around areas like Sandy Springs, Dunwoody, and Peachtree Corners without one. However, this lifestyle did cause me to change the way I look at residences. I now look at things like proximity to shopping, etc. Two years ago I got an electric bike (before then I had a normal one), and it extremely increased my range. It takes me about an hour to get from Sandy Springs to Brookhaven on my bicycle. I do this ride once a week to see clients in that area. And, proximity to the MARTA (Sandy Springs) opens up pretty much the whole city to me without having to pay the $50 or so an Uber would cost round trip. (though, I do use Uber as well). The arguement is one of cost. A car payment is about $500-$800 a month. Insurance can also run in the hundreds. Then you have gas and maintenance. Even if you own the vehicle and do minimum limits insurance, you are still looking at hundreds if not a thousand plus a month for a vehicle. I will say this. The issue with public transit, and you hinted at this pretty strongly, is far more cultural than real. People make excuses not to use it. They exaggerate issues or have poor impressions of it due to a rare past poor experience that they have heard about or maybe just imagine. I'm not saying it's wholly irrational, for example, Garnett station gets a bit dicey at times because the Greyhound and the Jail are both there. But, I think there's more to it. See, not having a car is a social change. You have to literally change the way you look at things. You need to plan your trips more in advance, since you can't just "hop in the car". You have to get used to walking. I'm at a point where walking 2-3 miles to get to a place (about an hour's walk for me) isn't a big deal at all, much less if I use my electric bike. But, when I first started living like this, I strongly remember for about a month or two feeling like it took "forever". Now, I actually enjoy it. I've lost 60+ lbs. But, beyond that, I found that living in the modern area, I could take my entertainment along with me quite conveniently. So, I'll toss on some youtube videos or a tv show or something, and before I know it, I'm there. But, it was an adjustment. One disclaimer, I did used to live in Brooklyn for a period. There, this sort of lifestyle is fairly normal. But, I wanted to point out that, whilst you can't do this in the less dense suburbs as easily, Peachtree Corners / Norcross / Sandy Springs / Dunwoody / Doraville, etc....all these areas this lifestyle can be accomplished with some minor changes in attitude.
You don't have to spend that much on a car (certainly not thousands a month.) I only pay $60 a month for insurance, paid car I only paid 2000 for (15 year old Toyota), put 3000 into it over 3 years. Not cheap, but not thousands a month.
@@johnathin0061892 Average insurance rates...not whatever you claim to have, are in the hundreds a month. Peaking in the ATL market, especially ITP, but OTP isn't great either. All of GA is 200+ a month give or take, as an average. Annual cost of auto insurance for a Georgian is above the national average, sitting around $2700 a year. Most of this is due to our high propensity for uninsured motorist claims. Now, this includes so called "full coverage" (which doesn't exist), but generally refers to comp and coll plus reduced by vs added on uninsured motorist (which I'm pretty sure you don't even know what that is). However, your belief that car insurance is "cheap" around the ATL zip codes is simply false. I know way more about this topic than you, and have real data at my disposal. The average premium is $2084. I am not great at math, but if you divide that less a 20% or 25% down pay, which is done for equity reasons, you don't come out with "$60 a month".
Youre forgetting gas, maintenance, tolls (if you take them), parking (if you go anywhere in a downtown). There's tons of "hidden" costs when it comes to car ownership that add up over time, especially since a lot of them (like maintenance) arent on a monthly or even yearly basis (oil change, tire replacement and rotation, accidents (the average american gets in 3-4 accidents during their lifetime), window cracks, etc).@johnathin0061892
I live in ATL proper and commute to Roswell. I love public transit but you hit the nail on the head - why take a slower (by >1 hour), more inconvenient, unsafe system over the luxury of my car? To the last part of the vid - the core city of Atlanta has great urban bones. What we need is more jobs located in the central city instead of jobs in suburban office parks, and more reliable transit intown. You're right that people want SFHs, but if jobs were centralized in one place instead of spread out, there could be more of a justification of commuter rail. But that needs to paired with making rail faster and safer for middle class commuters.
That’s my issue. Lol. I moved south of the airport, but most of the “good” jobs are north of the city. I made my choice due to many factors, but bringing more of those jobs to downtown or midtown would be ideal. Delta and CFA are the only big companies down this way for what I do. I’d rather commute to Macon before I deal with 400 to get to Alpharetta. Lol.
Touching on the downs of public transit (i.e, the homeless, drug use, cleanliness, etc.), you'll hear New Yorkers, transplants, tourists, and anyone else who goes to the city complain about this, and yet it still remains so widely used to this day (one of its lines is the most crowded one in the entire continent). I can confirm, since I have lived there for almost my entire life, and when I go back, I can't say I don't see some form of undesirable element, and yet even on weekends, depending on what line I hop on, the train can be packed (it does also have to do with population, geography, and history, since the metro area is by far the largest in the US by population, the city is on islands, and it dates back to the 1600s before the sprawling of the mid-20th Century came to be, not that you can sprawl on islands unless you're Long Island). I can't speak for everyone, but I can say how I am, and how many people are based on this, is this point right here: people will generally tolerate how nice or how shit a system looks if the system does what it's supposed to. I work in Philly, and as much as I speak on and on about the needles and cigarette buds I find on the MFL, I will still take it because it is useful and driving in Philly is an alternate I would rather avoid (what with having to put up with drivers and the mafia that is the Parking Authority). Same for New York. I live up in Lehigh County, and though there's a bus line that connects to the college and is near where I live, it has an absolutely appalling 1 hour headway, and the last bus leaves as soon as my evening class starts. So as much as I try and avoid driving if I can in a city, I make the decision to drive. I have taken MARTA before, and it seems like a system that gets the job done. I have also heard that poor headways contribute to low ridership. What can also contribute to low ridership is if you're a transportation system that not only is constantly late, but closes way too often for snow. That is what one of my buddies from Quincy said about MBTA, by the way. Yes, a transportation system in New England (Boston area, as well as Rhode Island), known for having horrible winters, apparently closes way too often for snow. Simply put, people will take a public transit system if: 1. First and foremost, it is actually useful in getting you from Point A to Point B in a timely manner. 2. Public transit is, in some way shape or form, baked into the metro area's way of life (think CTA, WMATA, MTA/NJT and to an extent, SEPTA and MBTA)
Do not forget 3: When driving in the area is so awful, and parking so scarce, you end up walking to your destination anyway. If you're walking 4 blocks to your destination, you might as well take the train. The station is about that far from your destination.
I live in Atlanta, and your list.... MARTA is none of those things. It is pretty much useless except for maybe the Red and Gold lines or at the very least, the Blue and Green lines from Decatur to Five Points. There were many lines proposed in the original MARTA plan from the 70's that were never built, crippling the system from the start. For one, MARTA rail doesn't even go near prominent Atlanta institutions like Emory University or the CDC as was originally drawn up. They have talked about putting light rail along the right of way of existing railroad tracks in what they call the "Clifton Corridor" as the road in the area is Clifton Road. It would create a line that would connect the Blue/Green MARTA heavy rail lines to the Gold Line. And, as far as Atlanta's roads go, they are a confusing mess outside of the semi-grid in Downtown and Midtown (and it's still not consistent) because most of Atlanta's made arterial roads were paved over old wagon trails that just followed the path of least resistance based on terrain and other factors. Peachtree Street/Road itself was laid over an old Native American trail that predates European settlement. You're never going to have a comprehensive street system like using old 19th century routes as your guide. It is a sharp contrast to the meticulously planned D.C.
I can say as a person that lives in greater Boston. Snow closures have never affected me. Any rail service that closes is replaced with bus service. Of course if there is heavy snow then the rails will need to be cleared before trains can operate again
The stupid thing about the proposal with transit in the center of GA 400 is that no one thought it will actually be used. If you make BRT bus riders change to MARTA where it currently ends, transit ridership decreases the more times riders have to transfer from one mode to another. If the BRT busses continue past the MARTA station as express busses into downtown Atlanta, it may attract more riders. Here in Nashville, TN, we are currently at the beginning of a PPP partnership (receiving input from citizens) to add toll lanes to I-24 from Murfreesboro, TN to just outside downtown Nashville. This will be the cheap version of toll lanes (plastic pipes to differentiate the toll lanes from the free lanes) vs. the more expensive versions with Jersey Walls separating the roadways built thorough downtown Orlando, FL and I-66 west of Washington, DC.
@@scpatl4now But it will still involve a transfer from the BRT to the train. They should have just extended the train up the median like they do inside the perimeter...
@@scpatl4now Heavy rail is expensive up front, but maintaining extra BRT busses and paying staff and drivers vs just running longer train routes with existing hardware and drivers seems like it makes sense. Especially since you'll already have the grade separation and gentle grades of the middle of the highway anyway. No way extending heavy rail MARTA is cheaper on a 10-20 year time scale.
@@danbert8I've never understood why each of the major interstates don't just have MARTA rail running right alongside them with stations at every major exit, OTHER than NIMBYism. Frankly it should have been implemented back when they built the interstates, but no one was thinking that far ahead. If people could just drive to the interstate, park, and then hop on a train to the office, way more people would take transit.
Thank you for laying down the reality check to people who think transit is the only solution to traffic. Transit works in very high population densities, there’s only one New York City in America.
I kinda agree with you that building more mass transit isn't the magic solution. I think it has more to do with zoning laws. Most zoning laws state that you can't build residential and commercial buildings in the same area. These laws even promote the construction of more single-family homes because of this reason. This results in more suburban sprawl and increased distances from popular travel destinations that people go to. If we changed and updated the zoning laws to promote more mixed-use communities and denser neighborhoods, then that is how you truly incentivize the use and construction of mass transit. For example, in Knoxville, TN, they updated the zoning laws a few years ago and the transformation on some of the main streets like Cumberland near the University has become less car-dependent. They narrowed the width of the road so that the speed of cars was reduced, built more sidewalks, and promoted more mixed-use zoning. This has resulted in more apartments being built with businesses being located at the ground level of these buildings. Plus, instead of having parking lots occupying valuable lots, these apartments have parking underground or at the ground level which keeps the existing parking while also building residential and commercial spaces on top. Examples like Knoxville can show people that you can promote more pedestrian-friendly areas while also allowing people to use cars. This also results in less car dependency which can increase the demand for mass transit. I'm not saying that this is the true magic solution, I'm just putting this out there as a potential solution.
When I moved to Atlanta back in 1990, there was talk about an exterior loop around the city. It would be like the existing 285 but a few miles farther out. THAT would have helped Atlanta traffic immensely because most of the interstate traffic could totally bypass the city. The cost would have been astronomical but I still believe it would have been worth it.
People in Atlanta's suburbs won't use mass transit as long as Atlanta residents are on the trains. The suburbs want nothing to do with Atlanta. That's why it's so hard to expand MARTA in the region.
Doesn't help that at this point they don't even offer trains on the ballot. Every election its the same "would you like to pay 1% sales tax for more buses and some BRT", which I think to a lot of people means: 1. I get to pay more in taxes 2. Traffic will probably be terrible while they're building bus lanes, and they'll probably take away from car lanes 3. I still won't take the bus because it will still be quicker and more convenient for me to drive to work I'd take a train to work if they put one that went straight from Cobb to Midtown where I could just work on my laptop the whole way there, but to your point, it will never happen.
Hi Mike, I wont say my name since its UA-cam, but im an urban planning student at the University of Illinois Chicago. I have been watching your content for about 2 years and am a big fan of the channel. I mention this because I have an idea and wanted to hear your feedback on it. I have a big dream of fixing Chicago's major traffic problems and I have been working on ideas and solutions for a long time now. What I propose is to build a community organization that would oversee all operations on the entirety of Chicago's expressway network and charge tolls on all expressways (similar to the Illinois Tollway) while simultaneously keeping the expressway construction federally/state-funded. I know that tolls are a controversial topic, but I believe Americans wouldn't mind paying them if it meant that their communities would thrive in response. A term I like to call "dead money" would be used to fund these projects, because instead of spending it on something personal, you spend it on something that benefits your community in turn increasing your land value/potentially not spending money on something that the toll revenue pays for in your community. We also already have a poor tax base, so our taxes aren't really paying for a lot in terms of city projects, and instead are left to developers trying to make a profit. The point of the tolls is to fund community projects that tackle intersectional challenges and social injustices within the communities that these expressways serve. This would include projects like fixing our public transport corridors and re-developing communities instead of gentrifying them. Things like welfare funding for those in need, and reducing our city-wide gas tax if possible as well. In a long-term plan, I believe in turning our trench expressways and viaducts into multi-modal transit corridors that are accessible for all. I believe that this plan for fixing our cities' transportation problems could work but of course, it is all hypothetical and it would require a lot of community involvement which is clearly lacking. But thats a whole other topic. I just wanted to express how amazing this video is. The points that were discussed here about the "transit is the magic elixir" stigma that a lot of urban planning UA-camrs, though a civil engineer yourself, think of to raise awareness about the U.S.'s style of development and how it is so "detrimental". I can only hear so many sarcastic comments about how cookie-cutter suburbs are bad. We the people do forget we have power here as shown by your source from the 2019 Fulton County voter turnout rate. As someone who rides the CTA every day, I see the points that you talk about first-hand. This video really lit a spark in my brain I guess, cheers I
It could have an effect but the issue you'll run into with any proposed new taxes on those expressways is that it would probably require federal approval to put tolls on roads that aren't already tolled and that's a very tall order politically. Then the issue of selling it to citizens as something that's good for the overall community. But yeah, existing transportation corridors are the most ideal for adding new transportation infrastructure like rail, BRT, etc. as it's usually costly and difficult to carve out new corridors in built up areas.
People and businesses the are already taxed to death in Illinois leading to a declining population. Where is all of that tax revenue going now? I'm sure auto insurance is very expensive. The old freeways were paid for by the citizens long ago, and their gas-taxes in Illinois pay for maintenance. Tolls added on top of everything else to throw more money at the lowest economic bracket to fix their issues? I don t see any connection between the 2 subjects. Public transit is already in place. Can economically disadvantaged residents get to jobs and education now in Chicago? How would taking more money from commuters going to work be used to cure social injustices? Yes freeways cut through poor neighborhoods 70 years ago. People aren't forced to stay in any one place. Rich and poor areas to live exist by the dozens across all US cities. Redlining ended in the 70s. It seems like you are just looking for a new untapped source of funding to be used for an unrelated purpose.---Perhaps a lucrative gun buy back program would save lives and hundreds of millions spent by the city every summer. on medical and police. That's what Chicago has become famous for to the rest of the country. So much wasted money spent in emergency rooms, funerals, etc., police detail. I don't mean to sound critical, but that's what should be remedied first.
As an Atlanta native that lives in the east suburbs, this shit is dumb. Just like how 75 North in Marietta and 75 South between Stockbridge and McDonough, and even the just now completed Ga 400/285 interchange, ITS STILL GRIDLOCKED. Even 20/285 East and West are getting added lanes currently and I'll guess around 6 months -1 year it'll still be gridlocked. I just wish MARTA heavy rail or even commenter rail will expand to all suburbs and exurbs. But I know all the oldheads will never let that happen. That's why I wanna be an engineer out of spite.
Yeah I live in McDonough and I'm like I don't see the point of express lanes. Not to mention it won't solve anything. To be honest they should have at least have a rail system so it can at least expand outwards. But you are right they won't allow it (at least where I live) outside Clayton County. And to be honest the traffic in McDonough is horrid. I know they are building and widening roads but it will become a problem again.
I've never seen I-75 Express Lanes in Cobb not flowing freely in afternoon rush period and tolls never above $5. In other words that project works well. South I-75 Lane is going to be changed to get another lane I think. Express Lanes always flow 45 mph. That's what you are paying for. Variable pricing guarantees free flow forever, only accidents cause it to stop.
You should open a driving school and stop crying. The roads are fine, but too many geniuses can't drive a car properly. Watch 6 car links between every car when the turn arrow is green. Geniuses 💯.... And man say he wants to be an engineer. 😂
Nobody wants the homie g's bussin a cap in their expensive neighborhoods. Can't say I blame them either. Atlanta is a complete sh*thole. Public transit only seems to benefit the people who can't hold down a job to afford a car. So, they get public transit access for free and commit crimes. The people who live in suburbs outside Atlanta are there because they don't want to live in Atlanta. Why bring the miscreants in Atlanta to you via public transit? Screw Marta.
Your commentary was RIGHT ON. I grew up in Pittsburgh of the 60s, they still had an extensive private streetcar system until the county took it over in 1964 and immediately abandoned all but a couple of south hills routes that were on private right of way. When downtown had the most corporate headquarters between NYC and Chicago the streetcars and LRV were heavily used, but after most of those companies (including Fortune 500 companies like Heinz, US Steel, Mellon Bank, numerous steel companies, IBM, Westinghouse etc merged or went out of business, and department stores like Macy's (twice) Saks 5th Av, Lord and Taylor, shut down their downtown locations, there is no reason to shop there. Only going to events at the 2 stadiums on the Northside the arena in the nearby "hill district" and downtown Convention center see use of the busses and LRVs as a private (once mob affiliated) owner runs virtually all the parking garages downtown and parking is still expensive. I moved to Norfolk Va in 1978 and about a decade ago, the country was in a frenzy to build LRV routes, the city spent $400 million to build a 7 mile "starter line" from downtown east to the Va. beach line. As it was being planned (originally it was to cost only $200 M) neighboring cities of Va. Beach (which was on the former NS freight line the cities bought to build the LRV line on) Chesapeake and even Portsmouth (whch would have required an expensive high rise bridge or tunnel to access it, After being a year behind schedule and costing 2x it's original estimate all three cities backed off, Va. Beach was forced to hold a referendum which the opposition complained that a light rail line to the oceanfront would "bring those people from Norfolk (blacks from the projects)" into Va. Beach, and it was defeated, and the city had to pay the state back the $40M they paid NS for the right of way to extend the LRV route. Which the public now wants made into a "rail trail". After Covid enthusiasm for any extensions of the line disappeared and it starts in an interstate created office / motel park, passes another office park, goes over an expansive tidal creek, where it stops at Norfolk State U. (and HBCU), and passes our baseball park/Antrak station, and downtown stops at City Hall, a now defunct mall, and ends at the medical center west of downtown. It serves almost NO residential areas as it was expected that Va. Beach would be providing the passengers when they built out their 12 miles. We also had a Republican GOvernor (McDonald) who was convicted of taking bribes after he left office, who sold our 2 tunnels to Portsmouth from Norfolk to a private company for 70 years and build a twin at the midtown Tunnel which was 2 way, and started at a $2 a trip toll, with a 3% a year automatic increase in rates. Rates now are over $3 and can top out at !$10 a trip eventually. These tolls have made Portsmouth an "island" as drivers who don't need to go there for business no longer go there for movies, restaurants, festivals etc. A third high rise bridge is also privately owned by another company that built it from scratch when the 75 YO drawbridge owned by the city of Chesapeake had to be demolished and the city was not going to replace it so the Jordan Bridge was built with totally private funds to Portsmouth, leaving only US 17 from the south as a FREE way into the city but a half hour detour to miss the tolls. McDonald also attempted to get a private toll road built from Suffolk along current US 460 to Petersburg, a 90 mlle road that was supposed to carry port traffic to I 85/95. After spending a quarter billion of tax payer money we found out the Corps of Engineers was NEVER going to approve the road going through the swamps er fragile wetlands US 460 crosses. Then he privatized the maintanence/ snow removal (of which we have little of here) on I 64/264 and eliminating all the VDOT jobs that used to do that job. As their 5 year contract was coming up for renewal, they did less and less maintanence until the interstates got so bad that lines of cars were on the side of the roads where they hit huge holes that ruined their wheels and tires and cost VDOT tens of thousands as they were sued for the poor condition of the poorly maintained roads. It was SO BAD, that VDOT had to prematurely cancel the contract and on an emergency basis repave the entire system in Norfolk and jack hammer out broken sections of concrete and replace entire slabs. We forget that Republicans reward their donors with these PPP contracts that provide them with taxpayer funds and profits (to donate to future campaigns) while Democrats prefer to keep government functions under the control of the voters and government.
Just a quick reply about the residents of Virginia Beach worrying about the "wrong people" coming to their neighborhoods if the Tide LRT was built to the oceanfront. They're actually dumber than you think, because what they obviously failed to realize is that the HRT buses ALREADY goes there anyway 😅😂 and has been going there for well over 30 years.
As always, excellent video! I grew up in Metro Atlanta and lived there for a little over 50 years, the last 30 of those close to 400. Best of luck to all who are still there, because road construction for the next 6 years is going to be a mess.
15:20. I’m a former UNCC student and the light rail was very convenient going from the campus to uptown charlotte. However we would get random drifters who would wander around the dorms of the campus after riding the train there. Now there is a gate at one of the pathways that you have to swipe your campus id card just to access the inner parts of the campus.
@ remember that tunnel that goes under Wallis hall? That’s where the gate thingy is now. It’s really a glass door but you gotta swipe your id just to access the courtyard in north village.
As someone living off of Holcomb bridge rd I’ve thought about this. One transit system will NOT solve our issues. We do need to expand marta or have an equivalent system that will link up to Marta. Personally I was thinking about sky trams instead of ground rail but not sure if that will be fast enough. Local cities / neighborhoods need to sponsor electric golf carts or e bikes so locals can get to the bigger transit points / local grocer easily without having to own a car. Charge per use and a penalty if not returned. Track via gps. Different cities can try different methods and then the best can catch on from there. The alt Marta could be sky tram / fancy busses (with food service and charging ports for all seats) / rail / monorail / other ways to move people around 50 to 60 mph. Solve the local issue, and then connect local spots of heavy traffic. There is my idea good sir. Please poke holes in it and let’s come up with something better.
Golf carts/e-bikes are a great idea, and as places like Peachtree City show, people will just buy their own as long as you build the trail network for them, which is MUCH cheaper and easier to build and maintain than actual roads because it's basically just glorified bike trails. You grade, put down a bed of gravel, and throw blacktop on top of it. And you can fit them in gaps you would NEVER be able to fit an actual road in, or just incorporate them into greenspace while only cutting enough trees to fit the path itself (no shoulder needed). It's the same concept as cars, but takes up way less space, requires way less infrastructure, and obviously pollutes way less. As long as you don't need to leave the city (most people work in Atlanta so they need a car), you can literally live on Peachtree City without a car. You'll just be stuck there because the next step would be to actually have a transit line that goes to Atlanta. Trail networks just might be the answer when combined with a rail hub for each area. The ONLY major sticking point is that if I parked my golf cart at a MARTA station, I would FULLY expect it to get stolen or vandalized. They're not exactly the most secure vehicles. No doors and unless you change the key, most brands have a universal key for all their carts, since they were designed as golf course fleet vehicles.
Transit tends to work better in older denser cities in the US like Chicago or New York. These cities were built around walking and transit when they were developed. Newer cities like Houston and Atlanta were built around highways so everything about them is built for that. The thing I like about where I live is that the things I like are relatively close to where I live. That means I don't have to drive that far to do what I want to do.
Chicago is around the same age as Atlanta, no drastic difference. Incorporates between 1833-1837 and Atlanta 1837-1843(terminus&Marthasvillle). Houston was established in 1837 and was Spanish at the time. Even then European nations and others put every city in America to shame as far as walkability, density and blueprint. Rabat, Morocco runs circles around NYC and Chicago lol, these cities are still car centric regardless, just the lesser evil in context lol. A better comparison would be Savannah, Ga to Atlanta, a city built in the early to mid 17th century and planned properly
The big difference is whether the city had enough money to kick out highway bulldozing. NYC kicked out Robert Moses. Houston at this time, was flattened. Even during Moses's time, you can see what parts of the city he was unable to touch due to NIMBYs. The Bronx got bulldozed for the Cross Bronx. Manhattan remains mostly intact
I lived in Atlanta from 2001 to 2012. They should have built a second loop decades ago! I live in Texas now. They might not do everything great, but they know how to build highways!
3:15 This render looks completely insane. And the render shows 2 typical ATL NPC trucks in the left lane of the general use lanes..... and a car tailgating them so this is must be exactly what its going to be like.
Middle: bus lanes and express lanes Outside: PEASANTS Left lane outside: NPCs 😂 But seriously public safety should just set up cameras in the left lanes that detect and auto ticket any 18-wheelers driving in the left lane. There are signs on every overpass that tell them it's not allowed, and these are professional truck drivers, they should know better. Maybe mailing them a $50 idiot ticket would generate some revenue and change the behavior.
I mean the only thing I like that they're adding are the BRT lanes. I don't think adding more lanes is going to make it more effective like you said. Although I am curious, would it benefit to also have like a separate truck Lane(s) ?
Personally I think truck lanes would be a significant benefit on the I-75 corridor, particularly south of Atlanta, since a lot of that 18-wheeler traffic is probably just long haul traffic that's using I-75 as a railroad alternative and separating it from the cars would make everything flow more smoothly and hopefully more safely. You could even have dual purpose bus and 18-wheeler lanes as long as the trucks weren't causing backups and slowing the buses down.
Everything you said in the video was spot on! I currently live in Dawson county right off of Georgia 400. My wife and I absolutely hate it up here because the growth has gotten to be too much. When we moved here we were actually trying to get away from the growth but we didn't do our research and realize that Dawsonville is a growing area just like Forsyth county. In the 5 years we've been here, the growth has been phenomenal and it's at the point where we're averaging a new construction project every other week. We're actually are going to move to another state next April because it's gotten so bad. And judging by when this project is supposed to start, we're moving at the perfect time. 400 is already a nightmare and this is going to make it worse as far as the road work. As far as it being cheap to live here, this is true compared to other areas but for the average person like my wife and I, we can't afford anything up here.
What people don’t realize is cramming all this development in here so fast, soon it’s gonna be like New Jersey, your taxes are gonna skyrocket. New school more police, more highways and more infrastructure to maintain etc
I live in the northern part of the controlled-access GA 400 corridor and this is going to be a nightmare. I already avoid going to Atlanta unless I absolutely have to (which is rare), and this will make it sooo much worse. I live 3 miles from where I work, don't need to use GA 400 at all... but it still impacts my commute. It's nothing more than a concrete river with limited crossings, just like the Chattahoochee River and Lake Lanier to the east of GA 400. This will push more vehicles onto surface streets during construction, which already struggle to handle increased traffic during "leaf peeper weekends". This is zero benefit to me, so I guess I should be happy that a private firm is paying for it... but that's only IF they don't fold. This has BAD IDEA written all over it.
This is thoughtful and almost depressing. There is no solution. I spent half my life in Atlanta back when you could still easily get around. Those days are gone. I now live in rural NC and use the Peach Pass lanes when I visit the city. I consider it the cost of entry!
Interesting fact: the "Eastbound and Down" scene from Smokey and the Bandit was filmed on this section of GA 400, although it is set in Alabama. There is at least one I-285 sign visible however. At that time, this section of GA 400 was only two lanes in each direction.
My kinda man as a guy who's totally in awe with America's roads & has been blessed to criss cross them in a big rig 🙏...I can jump on 400/19 pretty easy up Noth side...I can tell you it's a driver's road you berry know what the hell you're doing or else don't go!!! As an alternate route to go down to Atl widening this thoroufare will definitely be a game changer...when you know you know... 🙏
As someone who is from Boston but moved to Atlanta as a teenager because my Grandmother retired to live in the area because she loved the city, I did advocate for Atlanta to get transit expansion. I did advocate for the ability to walk more, to have better transit (even buses, as they did not exist in Snellville where my Grandmother retired to), to have better bike networks. However, after years of realizing none of that would come to the area before I grew old, I chose to pack my bags and go home. I love my family, but I find myself significantly happier in Boston where I am able to walk, bike, or take transit where I need to, and where if I drive it is a choice I can make based on the circumstances rather than feeling like it is a requirement. I hate to say I've lost hope, but unfortunately it feels like a hard truth that transit in Atlanta will improve very slowly, if ever; and even with the BRT proposals: If I chose to drive to take transit, why would I drive to a bus rapid transit stop to take the train, when I could sit in traffic for just a bit longer and go directly to the train? It saves the hassle of transferring and it's easier to plan around getting to the train on time because I can at least control when I leave and (within reason) how fast my car goes.
I feel bad for Atlanta I visited in 1995 for a weekend, main problem I saw was where I75 and I85 merged, downtown traffic was a somewhat issue Now after 30 years and the growth I hear they have had, I wonder if traffic is as bad as NYC, probably not but must have closed the gap some
It’s really just the freeways like 75 and 85 and 285 that’s bad. Surface roads aren’t terrible (at least on a Saturday). DC is probably a good comparison to Atlanta.
@@idriveastationwagon1534 I don't know about D.C. surface roads but I would say D.C. interstates are between NYC and Atlanta quality Last time I went through D.C., I entered by I-66 first time taking it, halfway heading East it became like bumper to bumper rush hour traffic sitting still a lot with small movements forward, repeat Took a long time for me to get through that on half of I-66 Then I got to I-495 beltway, hated that too Since then unless I have to do something in D.C., I look for routes that go around it, WAY around it
Awesome video. Every time I have this conversation with people (Cough cough in Gwinnett), I always ask them how can you convince Suburban families to stop using the cars they have ***bought with their own money*** and pay money to be on a bus with 30-50 other people going down to Atlanta. I believe public transit is our future, but profit in this country and in this world will always supersede what's best for society.
1)Well at least GDOT is doing something to alleviate traffic on GA 400 north of the I-285. I see no problem with express lanes in the main city and its suburbs. But my gut feelings is this project might not do the trick. 2)Yeah urbanists have to realize that unknown amount of people want a single family home instead of mid to high density housing. And it’s hard to incorporate metro rail into low density sprawling metropolitan area like Atlanta. 3)I wonder is this is the freeway revolt coming back to bite the Atlanta metropolitan area? Or zoning laws coming back to bite the Atlanta metropolitan area?
People are having less kids or no kids and the generations now and younger aren’t even having children. Not sure why they are building single homes as if this is a baby boom with nuclear families everywhere.
Personally, I think the best future of public transit is a complicated mix of busses, trains, mini-buses, and driverless taxis. It would require an app to navigate though and have the vehicles synced to the app to calculate the best way from point a to b. The way the outer suburbs in American cities are set up, most trips here would most likely be done with driverless taxi or mini- buses that don't follow a set route. Say you are going from your house to the mall, either a driverless taxi would come pick you up and take you straight to the destination or a mini-bus that functions similar to a larger uber pool would take you there. Say you are going from the suburbs to a game in the stadium downtown. You might be picked up by the driverless taxi or a mini-bus then driven to nearby large bus or train station that takes you downtown. If traffic isn't that bad or multiple people in your area are heading to the same area, the driverless taxi or mini-bus could take you directly where you want to go. Which in the case of an event downtown, a mini-bus could be ideal as there could be other people in your neighborhood or along the way that also want to go to the same event or another nearby in downtown. Under this system, most routes, except rapid transit lines would be dynamic. The main train and bus lines would run with regular frequent service along set lines. The taxis and mini-buses mainly would follow demand driven routes from people putting in requests on the app to go from one place to another. They could also follow set routes that don't see as many riders. I think cities should not just sit by while Uber takes over this market and actively buy these smaller buses (that by the way don't require CDLs) and invest in a fleet of driverless taxis themselves so there would be a functional suburban public transit system that would connect with the more urban public transit system.
Your last comment about the Outer Perimeter is spot on! That project should have been built when the chance existed. It would now be impossible to do it.
Since Atlanta is developing at a fast rate. Any land for a outer beltway will cause revolts.
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Living in Alpharetta, there's a bus stop very near my home. If I'm going to the airport, I find it fairly convenient to walk to the bus and ride it to the North Springs station, switch to train and take it all the way to the airport. It costs me $2.50 and it keeps my heart rate low as I'm not dealing with 50 insane lane changes cutting me off on the trek down 400, 85, and 75. That said, the bus and transfer adds a legit 45-60 minutes to the trip. I'm okay with it, but most would not be. I'm also fine with it if going to a Hawks or Falcons game. I personally wouldn't mind the train being extended to the Windward P&R with stops at North Point Mall and Old Milton (Avalon). I agree with others that the way you make that work is, shocker, enforce the law. You have to get rid of the troublemakers on the train. Drugs, panhandling, general crazy behavior needs enforced against. I tend to just avoid 400 if at all possible. I'll spend the extra 20 minutes on GA-9 if I'm wanting to go to Sandy Springs or Dunwoody. Less crazy drivers and less chance of a total shutdown due to a crash. And since Alpharetta has 99% of what I want, I rarely bother leaving. Living someplace you want to spend the vast majority of your time is a great suggestion.
MANY great points! As an Atlanta area resident, I'm rather sick of the ruthless and mindless zoning (mixing industrial/commercial ((warehouses)) and residential without buffers) and cut-throat housing developments (packing in 100+ houses in 2-3 acres of land...This honestly is not sustainable - especially 50 years out. My commute times have gotten longer year over year. The roads can't take the over-development. You can't have equal amounts of semi-trucks and SUVs cohabiting in the suburbs... This all adds to the traffic equation.
gDOT just replaced,the 285 400 interchange. They need to give construction a rest and let us 400 drivers enjoy a drive without construction. The 285 400 interchange took 8 years. Originally 4 years. It will take an extra 4 or 5 years for this. Btw for 6 billion they should be able to afford marta heavy rail. This was a thorough video and you did your research. Thanks.
My take on Atlanta is the “interstate “ traffic is just about the vehicles that do not have ATL as a destination, they are just trying to traverse around the city . As a example when I was going north on I-75 from Macon there was a extensive accident just north of Forsyth Ga that had traffic stopped for hours and I found my way around it and was able to get back on I-75 enroute to Cumming Ga and much to my surprise the traffic was very light all the way around I-285 and at 5:00 pm the traffic was very sparse to 400 in fact I took a video of the traffic because no one would believe me, and I agree with you that the state missed their chance for the outer perimeter. In addition you can look for even more truck traffic in the future due to Savannah port upgrades to Super container ships and that freight will coming to a roadway to you in Atlanta. Oh yes excellent report.
Well said, Mike. I lived not far from the proposed North Fulton Expressway (GA 400) growing up. I doubted it would be built but it was, years later. The lack of political will in Atlanta to build the rest of the missing freeways to provide a second north-south route thru the city puts too much pressure on I-85/75. You are so right in that if you don't build it early, building it later will be more difficult and more expensive. Your myth-busting is also welcome. With the misnamed I-4 Ultimate in Orlando, the fare structure does not change (cheap!) and I seldom see it with much traffic. Now if these lanes were extended to Volusia County in the east, and past US 27 in the west, the income would skyrocket as the congestion is much worse outside the downtown.
I'm in Sandy Springs, about a half mile from 400. Crazy that a many years long current project leads immediately into another. Abernathy is whoa now! Safer maybe, but crazy. A well done and insightful video. Thank You.
Great information,quite thorough. I think one of the reasons the Marta isn’t used is because catered to the more affluent, not in an areas it would more likely be utilized .
Mike, so I live in the northern ATL suburbs in cobb but closer to 400 than I-75. You’re 100% correct, most people in this area won’t ride Marta regardless of it being cheaper or faster… for some of the reasons you said but also bc it doesn’t really go anywhere useful besides the airport. And to take it to the airport from sandy springs or even medical center is 45min to an hour and you’ve got to worry about your bags being stolen. For those that work downtown they also won’t take it bc it’s so hot here in the summer no one wants to get to the office all sweaty and the Marta stops downtown aren’t in the most convienent areas either. However, I know it’s an old topic that seems dead but would love you to do a video on it bc it would really help the traffic here, if we had an outer perimeter. For example a top beltway from i20 or 75 that passes thru the area between Marietta and Woodstock, Alpharetta and cumming, and meets up with I-85 in Gwinnett. I forgot the reasoning behind it being shot down but if the state does have the money and we know it would help traffic why not build a toll road similar to Maryland building the one from Rockville to I-95?
Yeah it's funny my sister lives in a McMansion in Forsyth county and 400 is a nightmare already, and she wonders why I won't move to ATL 😅 Thanks for bringing up the disastrous Toll Lanes on I-77 as a CLT native, the public wasn't even given an option to vote for it and it's been a disaster. What's worse is the state already had a plan to expand to 4 lanes each direction over a decade ago AND the money to support it but took the corrupt/easy route instead.
In the late 2000s Charlotte got the lion's share of project funding. The huge, impressive I-485 completion and I-85 being widened to 8 lanes all the way to Lexington, NC. All of that funding for those huge improvements meant I-77 would have to wait for 20 years while the rest of the state's tremendous needs were funded. Charlotte has by far the biggest and nicest freeways. Raleigh's 540 outer-loop is 60% tolled, and is now $8-11 per trip with no free lanes or alternative route. No complaints in Raleigh though which gets shortchanged being fair to the rest of the state.
Maybe. Maybe not. I don't see the relevance of the outer perimeter in regards to a North/South highway leading out of Atlanta. One has nothing to do with the other.
@@DawgInDawsonville It is relevant to the extent the highway network in the city does not have redundancies, that would help share the traffic loads. people in the norther suburbs could take the outer perimeter to I-575 to I-75 into the city as an alternate route. It should not always about widening verses offering alternative freeways to reduce the traffic on the fewer freeways.
@user-ci9ri4fl5pBuckeyeChessie Hwy 53. Hwy 140. Hwy 20. Why do you need an outer perimeter to get from 75 to 575 and vice versa? I live by Hwy 400 and use all 3 of those with regularity. And I still fail to see what any of that (outer perimeter, 53, 140, 20) has to do with the video at hand.
Alpharetta Autobahn! Indeed. At one point Marta was looking at running up to windward parkway. A lot of building got bought up on speculation that it was going to happen and not a lot of landlords are holding the bag. So the main advantage of Marta to Windward would be for young workers who live in the city and don't want to own a car and take a job in Alpharetta. Your video is eyeopening and I even learned a couple. I live off of 85 in the northeast corridor
i agree with everything said, most people won't accept that despite wanting more transit, they'd indirectly preffer a style of development that prioritize single family homes and sprawl, totally incompatible with transit
Except that people have lived in single family homes outside of Manhattan and have for generations driven to the train station to take the train into work.
I was born and raised in the most congested state (NJ) in the country. NY/NJ is all toll roads and it doesn't help relieve traffic. The NY/NJ Port Authority owns bridges, tunnels, airports, seaports, and highways in the NY/NJ metro area and the roads and bridges all charge outrageously high tolls. The NY/NJ Port Authority has grown so big that it has become a monoploy that continously increases tolls to support six figure salaries and benefits of it's employees while the traffic congestion gets worse. I moved to Atlanta, GA. back in the 1980's to get away from NJ toll roads and over taxation. Atlanta always had traffic problems and now that a lot of NY\NJ residents moved to Atlanta, they are bringing their bad ideas (tolls and mass transit) with them. Mass transit works in NYC but not in Atlanta suburbs. It takes twice as long to get from Point A to B on mass transit. People in Atlanta like their vehicles because they make multiple stops (child care, food store, cleaners) while going to and from work. You can't do that on mass transit. Taxing (tolls) on Atlanta roads does not resolve the traffic problems. All it does is tax you to sit in traffic. The express lanes are usually more congested than the free lanes. If all the lanes were express lanes, you are still dealing with the same amount of vehicles using the same amount of lanes. Atlanta's traffic problem is due to major office projects (Perimeter, Galleria) being built in the same area causing everyone to travel to one location at the same time. Additional issues are traffic lights on top of ramps, tractor trailers and cars using the same lanes, and Atlanta suburbs being spread out. Selling highways to a private for-profit company is a really bad idea.
Great vid Mike! Amazingly, I don’t think I’ve ever driven GA-400! Decentralizating cities can help reduce commutes, the way Atlanta had many offices at 75&285 on the north side of town, or a lot of warehouses on the SE side of town. But, like you said, people will buy their dream home even if the commute is ridiculously long! Thx!
Having spent several years in Roswell, GA I used the MARTA a fair bit. Back when 400 was a toll road, taking MARTA from North Springs to the airport was the way to go. No need to mess with the crazy pickup area and parking at the airport. Parking at Marta also used to be significantly cheaper.
Minneapolis and St Paul metro has the best transit system I've seen in the US. They also have a unique school system with Anoka Hennipen County school system with transit vouchers if you want your kid to go to a different school in the school system.
I-77 in north Charlotte, which is a combo tolled cluster F--- in its own right, is completely crazy expensive to drive per mile and hated by almost all in Charlotte and Mecklenburg county. The ATL has become one huge bottleneck however that isn't built for mass transit, so what are they going to do...? I'm personally still waiting for the flying cars that were promised many years ago to fix everything. lol Absolutely GREAT video Mike!
When GA400 had a dedicated bus lane (about 15 years ago) the bus ridership was amazing. Even when the buses could use the shoulder it was good. Then drivers complained that they wanted to use the extra lane and they converted the dedicated bus lane to a shared lane with cars. After that ridership plummeted and times greatly increased. I think there are plenty of people who will come back if the bus ride from Windward Parkway goes back to 15 minutes like it was when the buses had their own private lane.
Great presentation as usual! As someone who has been on both sides of the transportation and land development discussion, I agree with what you presented and how you debunked the usual cure-all alternatives, particularly the comments against regional-scale alternative transportation modes, e.g., MARTA and BRT, which are only expensive afterthoughts (boondoggles?) that won't attract the target ridership needed to be sustainable.
"Public transportation, rail, in particular, makes property values go down." -heard in an Atlanta suburb. What is the solution to this problem, whether it's real or imagined?
Great commentary I appreciate as a native Atlanta suburbanite. Recent election further proof of your point as both Gwinnett and Cobb counties voted down sales tax increases for expansion of bus service.
Lifelong mostly-suburban Atlantan here. I don't like this video, but I'm gonna make a few succinct comments: Transit will never relieve traffic congestion to any appreciable degree. It will, however, enable some mobility even in the face of severe congestion. These express lanes do basically the same thing: they'll have no detectable effect on overall congestion, but they'll make it possible for people with money to get where they're going a lot quicker that they'd otherwise be able to. I hadn't heard about the express lanes being sold off, but it's obvious why they did it: GDOT plans to build similar lanes along the top half of I-285, and they'll be a lot more expensive because the parts between I-75 and I-85 will be mostly elevated. They need all the public money they can get for that because they're too expensive to make a profit. Keeping up with demand for new roads in Atlanta would've required systematically buying right-of-way in the late sixties-early seventies, plus getting used to the idea of toll roads. More or less what Texas has done except that their benign terrain made it feasible to build frontage roads years or decades before the freeways or tollways and thus get some return on the investment. Now it's far too late-- another thing for the whiners to grab a clue about. As far as the Outer Perimeter, it amounts to building a 200-mile highway because we couldn't get it together to build a much more useful 100-mile highway when it was feasible.
Great video, especially the commentary about mass transit. Do you think something like Tesla's Cybercab or Robovan could be a happier medium between everyone driving solo and mass transit?
I live in northern Mecklenburg County and use the I-77 tolls lanes occasionally. It is hard to evaluate the effect because of the COVID shutdown. Even as things have come back, I don’t think the traffic problem is as bad as it was before the project. We still have traffic jams at many of the same spots, but we have the option not to be part of them. We have express bus service into Charlotte, and the buses can use the express lanes and not be stuck in traffic. The bus service runs only during rush hours and not at all on Saturdays, so you can’t take it into town for a concert or show and come back that night. We’ve been planning on commuter rail for years, but state and federal governments have been blocking it. They won’t even let us vote to add more sales tax to fund it. We are buying the tracks from Norfolk Southern in hopes it gets going. If it gets built, I’m likely to be too old to be comfortable heading into town on foot by then. I do enjoy an occasional day trip on the express bus in nice weather. I’m afraid that the commuter rail will have the same limited hours as the bus, so limited usefulness for us retirees. Since I’m rarely driving on I-77 at peak times, the tolls lanes don’t cost me a lot. I take them sometimes even when traffic is not that bad. Even moderate traffic seems to travel in clumps. So in the regular lanes, you speed up and then slow down behind the next clump. On the toll lanes, you zip right past all that. You may not get there that much quicker, but you arrive more relaxed. I don’t notice the occasional $20 charge on my credit card to replenish my balance for the tolls. If I’m coming off the Brookshire Freeway heading home, I take the express lane exit. Whatever it costs is worth it for the convenience and I think safety.
77 from charlotte to Huntersville traffic is absolute ass during rush hour. And the toll prices are insane for anyone using it on a daily basis at peak times. Most people don’t use them so you end up having an 8 line highway with 4 of them being used at 5% capacity
@ It’s a choice. You can sit in the traffic or you can pay a toll. If you are traveling at commuting hours, you can ride free in the toll lanes if you have two passengers. For a small amount of money you can ride in the toll lanes in the express bus. Before the pandemic I used to attend photography workshops each fall at the Convention Center. I’d take the bus into town in the morning, and then back home in the evening. It worked great. Usually there were quite a few well dressed business folks heading in. It was not the stereotype that racist folks have about bus riders. Occasionally, I’d just spend a day in town going to museums and such. I had a great time.
@ Toll lanes don’t really cut down on congestion. They just let you decide whether to be part of it. It would have made more sense to build the Red Line commuter rail first. But the Bush transportation department wouldn’t help fund it. Toll lanes was their idea of mass transit. The politics of the changing leadership of Norfolk Southern meant that the Red Line wouldn’t be done anyway. The current NC legislature is blocking our voting an additional transit tax so it may never happen even now that the use of the tracks seems to have been worked out. Some development along the corridor has continued anyway.
Beauty and creativity. I’d love to see cute wooden electric trollies running on paths and wooden bridges. The best spots in our city are at old trolly stops. We definitely have the trees for it. The oak trees the city planted are all full grown now and just falling down on houses every time the wind blows. Harvest them for raw materials and replace them with fields of fast growing bamboo for an even more versatile raw material, cleaner rain gutters, and carbon capture. The trollies might be unmanned or operated by someone authorized to defend the riders. Elevated bridges where needed, like the one that weaves through the botanical gardens, or the boardwalk at Mason mill park, would be much less intrusive than roadways or tracks, human scale, and beautiful.
Great and truthful video MM. Marta is poorly run and suffers the after-effects of that poor operation. I have been taking Marta to my job in Midtown/Downtown for ~15 years and I can attest. Marta should be a state agency as most regional transit systems are but it was doomed from the start being run by the city. The City of Atlanta cannot run anything well including the airport. After years of failing to expand regional transit, Atlanta is stuck with what it has. I am planning my exit from the city within the next 5 years and cannot wait. Traffic, sprawl, and poor management have reduced this once-great city to a disaster. That along with the fact that areas of the city incorporated so they would not get annexed has created a fractured and inefficient metro which is very unfortunate for everyone.
Good video. Fair & balanced. A few things i didnt hear (i multitask so i may have missed it). The state tax refund is a 1 time refund. A project like this not only is a sale for construction expenses but also includes maintenance. You are correct that a private entity could file bankruptcy. Just like a public construction contract could go 40-80% overbudget. There are worst case scenarios for every scenario. Great job. I appreciate your insights.
I have been stymied by the Atlanta roadways for years. I have lived in Atlanta since 1965 and seen vast change. I honestly think what we need is to retest drivers on the rules of the road and get those drivers off who can't abide by them. Most have no concept of looking in their rear view mirrors to see the dynamics of the roadway. Often the volume of traffic is hampered by the 50 mph driver in the fast lane who drives the same speed as the car next to him/her not allowing anyone to pass. When things stack up what I notice on I-75, I-85 and I-285 is that they are loaded with tractor trailers for miles and very little way around them. With the use of simulators people could be tested in their homes.
When cities were physically smaller, public transit worked, because it was readily available to your home, which was often an apartment. That's not been the case since the rise of the suburb after World War II and the development of the Interstate system. Walking to or from public transit with a load of groceries or other stuff from the store (and kids) became more difficult, or outright dangerous. Thus, the 'station wagon' to connect between public transit and the new suburban house you got with a VA loan. That worked somewhat until white flight became common and commercial passenger rail failed in the late 60's, especially as cars made it easier to get door-to-door for school, shopping at the new mall or dropping off Dad to grab the train. This is ancient history from 50-75 years ago. I remember it directly because I lived it. Even much of the Federal (US) highways were patchworks of state highway systems dating back to the 1920's (and some still are). The world started getting faster, and what there was when I was a kid no longer existed. There were many more people, and many more upon that. Cities couldn't hold them. Suburbs grew to exurbs and transportation, primarily roads, struggled to keep up with demand for more expressways and freeways. Downtowns died or downsized. The station wagon became the SUV. Small cars were for those in cities, where there was little room to park. I am no fan of 'express lanes'; it the state needs them, bond it out over time and use revenue to pay them off. Or build full toll roads where everyone pays. Express lanes build a caste system on the roadways and a double white line isn't going to prevent frustration from playing out. Sprawl rules, y'all.
Great video on an important topic. I’m not knocking the GA 400 project but I don’t believe it makes a material improvement in traffic congestion. Look at the areas far north of McFarland. They’re super-congested. The problem up there is only partly related to more and bigger roadways. A lot of it is this: everyone in Georgia wants to live on a cul de sac in a gated neighborhood. I live in one of those places in Roswell with 800 homes in the neighborhood. When one of the roads adjacent to the neighborhood gets congested, taking an alternate route requires a 3 mile detour, not just a quick one-block detour. Now place multiple gated (or non through-street) neighborhoods next to each other. The problem cannot be solved only with more lanes.
Obviously perception is key in anything and if given the chance to upkeep things as is, maybe do a bus system redesign to better focus where most users go between. If the commuter busses that go further north are still half decent and use the BRT lanes, it won’t feel like a waste. Besides, if routes that use it continue to North Point Mall-and malls can be still valid trip generators/transfer points (be it between routes, active transportation [walking, cycling], or to even ride share or carpool). Sometimes even optionality is not quantity of provided public transit options, even in the most obscure of situations. Basically the cycle is “system needs upkeep-we need money-can’t find it-infrastructure deteriorates-maybe service cuts happen”, and unfortunately that first step I think is more important than further reforms to how things get built-you can say “defacto yes, we will allow higher density and slash parking minimums”, but until you have a proper funding stream only mess with what needs to be remediated or torn down because a modern 4-plex over those two dilapidated buildings on that street corner and it won’t be taller than anything in your neighborhood (maybe 3-6ft, you can’t notice 3-6ft. It’s not going to be a skyscraper towering over the trees)
You hit the nail(s) on the head with both the voter turnout and the mentality of our society at large. Hell, I do vote in the off year elections, knowing that those are just as important, if not more, than the olympic year elections, and I couldn't tell you who my local councilman is. Yeah I know my mayor and a few of the ones that have every commercial break money, but to get a speed bump put in or fix a streetlight, I have to cop to ignorance; lazy ignorance. I'm in Germany right now with a strong eye on their transportation system, which Germans complain about constantly, partly to see what works for a city, region and country at large, but also to get a try to get a sense of the cultural mindset that says, I won't benefit from it, but its needed for the greater good.
Amazing video finally someone on UA-cam who actually knows what their talking about and talks realistically
You should have mentioned GA400 inside the perimeter which was the last, but very important connection to 400 North of 285. It was built through expensive neighborhoods and was paid by a 50 cent toll for 20 years. Also this GA400 project is nearly as big as I-285's 4 elevated express lanes which will be built simultaneously with 400 or soon after.
@@raknoknak or better yet "they're" since that's what they meant
@@stephenedwardsnyc They are and they're is exactly the same thing.
Way too much truth from 10:47 on.
Why don't you start your own channel, smarty pants?
As an Atlanta native… this is a lot of hard truths. Thank you this video
As someone who watched 400 being built as a kid and racing on it before it opened, this was a great presentation! Well done, Sir!
400 was the autobahn when it was all toll.
@@DoughBoiVegan23 only one small extension has ever been toll.
I bet you liked watching them film Smokey and the Bandit on it, too
@@ericheardugathat one "small" extension was the part everyone drove on to get in and out of Atlanta that direction.
The main thing that changed though was that whole corridor absolutely blew up with growth and now it doesn't clear up till you get far up on the northern end of it.
Better security is vital for mass transit!!
Transit is attractive if you have proper frequency (at least 10 mins). If you police the trains properly, they would be safer, but as always, that costs money the state refuses to spend. MARTA is constrained by their budget. It is also the only transit agency that receives no money from their state government. It was created the same time as the DC Metro and look at where that goes. You get what you pay for.
It's not just the convenience of cars. People are rightfully scared of Marta bringing crime to their safe suburbs. Let be honest for a sec here and look at the problems a Marta stop has brought to Lenox Mall.
Y'all do know criminals have cars right?🤷
@@Vinny.XLive here in Georgia, the rise in crime around Lenox corresponded with the rise of crime in other cities in other states at the same time. MARTA did not facilitate that crime, it was just opened around the same time and has been scapegoated by people who are against transit expansion.
Source: I lived in Atlanta, Sandy Springs and Alpharetta (Another city that refused expansion)
When the transit systems were created is immaterial - it's when and how the cities themselves were created that matters. Washington was laid out in the late 18th century, a time of foot and horse traffic, more or less on a tabula rasa by two dudes whose classical vision was largely unconstrained by the politics of a government in infancy or by a preexisting population with a preexisting lifestyle (apart from a few villages). This layout dictates a certain maximum traffic speed, even for the cars that came later: the sheer number of streets in DC, the resulting number of intersections, the percentage of those intersections that involved more than just two streets, the angles at which those streets intersect - all of this means that even when the broader avenues are empty at 4AM, there is only so fast you can drive from Point A to Point B. So Metro's creators were introducing a travel mode that was no just inherently faster than the transport modes the city was designed for, but inherently faster than the cars Metro was competing with.
_Whereas,_ 90 to 95% of Atlanta was laid out _after_ the invention of the automobile (and the entire corridor of this extension project was laid out 50 years ago) and the "still-old" 5% of Atlanta had been significantly altered in the 70s to accommodate and maximize the flow of cars. Atlanta quite literally prioritizes the convenience of cars driven by people over the convenience of people not in cars. Cars move faster in Atlanta than in DC with comparable traffic; so compared to DC, MARTA trains have always faced tougher competition from cars, with less of a walking culture for trains to improve on. The one advantage MARTA and Atlanta have is the history of trams in the city, which the road layout actually still favors and which I believe will, eventually, make a comeback in older parts of town.
TLDR, Metro has always been able to claim it's _faster_ than driving. MARTA at best has only been able to claim it's _as fast as, but cheaper and more convenient than,_ driving. A sales pitch that really only resonates when you have to go to the airport.
@@cisium1184It’s interesting how the city blueprint was laid out after the invention of cars, when it was established and rebuilt from 1837 to 1867. I’ll have to further investigate that. I’m assuming you mean the majority of midtown and Buckhead, and outside of the core original downtown.
Absolutely love this presentation. I’m a life long Georgia (metro Atlanta) resident (76yrs). Informative. Professional. Thought provoking. Reality. Excellent work!
The harsh truth is for most American cities, the best public transport option to develop isn't rail, its busses.
Most US cities (and their subburbs) are built around cars, and continue to be. And you can't flip a switch to change that.
Busses leverage that existing infrastructure, especially if lanes are dedicated to public transit that skip traffic.
The problem is, *busses are not sexy.* They have a terrible, frankly hyperbolic, reputation. Which makes it harder to get more investment in it.
Making an effort to reform the image of bus transit in the US will do more benefit to US transportation than hundreds of failed, half completed light rails that always plan on making a profit the next year; this time for sure.
Excellent point. Buses are easier to pass through politically and cheaper but have that negative stigma among Americans.
If there was a bus system I could take to get from my home to work, I would gladly pay for it. Right now, I vanpool with 4 other people so I don't have to drive as much but I know that's not available to many.
@@kyleb5169 Van pool is basically... a bus. It's better than when I ride a bus with just one other passenger.
Busses are a stopgap measure, for us to truly fix transit. Rail has to be expanded.
The best public transportation is one that people would use. Like you said, bus has a terrible reputation (well deserved crap reputation here in Atlanta). Georgia has no BRT lines and has no proposed BRT lines for bus to be built. Every "express" bus proposal uses a shared car lane for much of the route. We can look at the car express lanes on I-85 and 75 to see that those suffer standstill rush hour traffic. Why would anyone give up there own car to sit in traffic on a fake rapid bus service?
Finally someone who is actually saying what makes sense and explaining why
Well done sir! As a 35+ year resident of Atlanta, you correctly outlined the problems and myths of mass transit.
I say this as an Atl born and raised, and as a truck driver, Atl is by far one of the worst designed and worst maintained cities I've ever driven through. And If adding more lanes actually worked then I75 NB/SB at 12 lanes wide wouldn't have traffic. Our leaders are too focused on money and commercial/housing development and are actively ignoring the mounting problems with our infrastructure. Multiple parts of I75/285/20 flood when there's heavy rainfall and I've yet to see anyone address that.
Since you're a truck driver I'm sure you'd know but I heard that semi truck drivers aren't supposed to use Atlanta's city streets and have to drop their loads at locations outside of the city. Is that true?
@dariusbrock2351 I'm a native ATLien who drives for Uber/Lyft and I see semi trucks on surface streets here all the time.
@dariusbrock2351 No, I haven't heard of anything like that. Of course there are certain streets you can't go down but you'll just have to take the truck route.
To be honest, they are simply incompetent and know little about city structures, urban walkable streets, and how to even layout desirable city blueprints, this is America. Places in Europe and other nations would put every city in America to shame, even Rabat, Morocco. By the way DC native, the issue is all over America, but living in GA, you want to see improvements where you reside or pay taxes. Meanwhile in Cobb dummies are still putting up “vote no for m-splost”, and the first to complain about traffic getting worst with no solution. Cobb and the rest of the suburbs across the US continue to build low density single homes, further accelerating deforestation and sprawl.
@@dariusbrock2351 They can use the interstates inside the perimeter for local deliveries. The don't unload at a remote location to be picked up again. Very wasteful of fuel and more polluting.
Thank you. As a resident that drives this way occasionally it's nice to see a really good breakdown. Keep up the great work!
Great job on sharing this information and your honest opinions I agree with 100 percent. Voting matters, being informed matters, and knowledge is power. Thank you!
Great video! It's refreshing to see someone breaking down these complex issues realistically and with real knowledge. Thank you for the insights!
Someone send this to City Nerd, the end part might actually make him flustered.
You covered this perfectly 👏👏 with data and facts.
I4 Ultimate in Orlando is another example of Public-Private Partnership, with a consortium of construction companies collecting the revenue from the Express Lanes for the next several decades. While I also have an issue with the private ownership, I cannot deny that traffic has improved in the rebuilt areas (minus some trouble spots at peak times). As long as toll prices are kept reasonable as they are now, I can begrudgingly accept the realities as to why our state DOT's are increasingly selling out to private companies.
Yeah the prices on the ones in Orlando seems pretty decent for keeping traffic flowing.
DMV also has some tolls that can rack up faster than taking the PA Turnpike or any one of Port Authority's bridges into NYC, but considering how bad traffic can get, it can be worth it. I just can't stand how it's only one-direction.
I-4 ultimate is my favorite stretch of interstate highway. Not just the smooth ride, but the architecture is very nice!
i4 ultimate should be the national standard when building these express lanes
@@inkedsharkytvery close to express/local lanes highways in New Jersey.
I was once a resident in Dunwoody-Roswell. Georgia 400 is the worst hwy in the entire state.
i like that "affordable housing is great as long as you build it away from me" going to use that next time I argue with a NIMBY🤣🤣
Hey it may not be fair or equitable, but "you must be high income to live here" IS an effective way of keeping the riff-raff out.
The same reason suburbs don't want public transit despite having to deal with traffic, it's a barrier to entry. "you must at least be able to afford a car to live here".
Combine it with stringent emissions and safety inspections for cars to force old beat up cars off the road unless they get expensive repairs, and you've got a very effective means of keeping all of those peasants who can't afford a new car out of your town.
@@Michael-uc2pnYes, and then all the riff raff end up in the downtown, and the downtown is ruined for everyone. It makes your city a non-place with no real focal point worth going to.
@@AbstractEntityJexactly they get so focused on the “riffraff” and don’t realize they turned their city into a soulless place not worth staying in
@@BHPOfficial They also demand that the inner city widen the roads and build more parking everywhere to cater to themselves and their cars. That is also how cities get ruined.
As someone who lives OTP more than a decade, and does not own a car, and has not owned a car in almost a decade, it's actually surprising how well one can get around areas like Sandy Springs, Dunwoody, and Peachtree Corners without one. However, this lifestyle did cause me to change the way I look at residences. I now look at things like proximity to shopping, etc.
Two years ago I got an electric bike (before then I had a normal one), and it extremely increased my range. It takes me about an hour to get from Sandy Springs to Brookhaven on my bicycle. I do this ride once a week to see clients in that area. And, proximity to the MARTA (Sandy Springs) opens up pretty much the whole city to me without having to pay the $50 or so an Uber would cost round trip. (though, I do use Uber as well).
The arguement is one of cost. A car payment is about $500-$800 a month. Insurance can also run in the hundreds. Then you have gas and maintenance. Even if you own the vehicle and do minimum limits insurance, you are still looking at hundreds if not a thousand plus a month for a vehicle.
I will say this. The issue with public transit, and you hinted at this pretty strongly, is far more cultural than real. People make excuses not to use it. They exaggerate issues or have poor impressions of it due to a rare past poor experience that they have heard about or maybe just imagine. I'm not saying it's wholly irrational, for example, Garnett station gets a bit dicey at times because the Greyhound and the Jail are both there. But, I think there's more to it.
See, not having a car is a social change. You have to literally change the way you look at things. You need to plan your trips more in advance, since you can't just "hop in the car". You have to get used to walking. I'm at a point where walking 2-3 miles to get to a place (about an hour's walk for me) isn't a big deal at all, much less if I use my electric bike. But, when I first started living like this, I strongly remember for about a month or two feeling like it took "forever". Now, I actually enjoy it. I've lost 60+ lbs. But, beyond that, I found that living in the modern area, I could take my entertainment along with me quite conveniently. So, I'll toss on some youtube videos or a tv show or something, and before I know it, I'm there.
But, it was an adjustment.
One disclaimer, I did used to live in Brooklyn for a period. There, this sort of lifestyle is fairly normal. But, I wanted to point out that, whilst you can't do this in the less dense suburbs as easily, Peachtree Corners / Norcross / Sandy Springs / Dunwoody / Doraville, etc....all these areas this lifestyle can be accomplished with some minor changes in attitude.
You don't have to spend that much on a car (certainly not thousands a month.) I only pay $60 a month for insurance, paid car I only paid 2000 for (15 year old Toyota), put 3000 into it over 3 years. Not cheap, but not thousands a month.
Perfect candidate for the 'Not Just Bikes' channel 😁
@@johnathin0061892 Average insurance rates...not whatever you claim to have, are in the hundreds a month. Peaking in the ATL market, especially ITP, but OTP isn't great either. All of GA is 200+ a month give or take, as an average.
Annual cost of auto insurance for a Georgian is above the national average, sitting around $2700 a year. Most of this is due to our high propensity for uninsured motorist claims.
Now, this includes so called "full coverage" (which doesn't exist), but generally refers to comp and coll plus reduced by vs added on uninsured motorist (which I'm pretty sure you don't even know what that is).
However, your belief that car insurance is "cheap" around the ATL zip codes is simply false.
I know way more about this topic than you, and have real data at my disposal.
The average premium is $2084.
I am not great at math, but if you divide that less a 20% or 25% down pay, which is done for equity reasons, you don't come out with "$60 a month".
Youre forgetting gas, maintenance, tolls (if you take them), parking (if you go anywhere in a downtown). There's tons of "hidden" costs when it comes to car ownership that add up over time, especially since a lot of them (like maintenance) arent on a monthly or even yearly basis (oil change, tire replacement and rotation, accidents (the average american gets in 3-4 accidents during their lifetime), window cracks, etc).@johnathin0061892
I’m in dekalb off the gold line and scooter or subway everywhere. It’s freeing and cheaper.
I live in ATL proper and commute to Roswell. I love public transit but you hit the nail on the head - why take a slower (by >1 hour), more inconvenient, unsafe system over the luxury of my car?
To the last part of the vid - the core city of Atlanta has great urban bones. What we need is more jobs located in the central city instead of jobs in suburban office parks, and more reliable transit intown. You're right that people want SFHs, but if jobs were centralized in one place instead of spread out, there could be more of a justification of commuter rail. But that needs to paired with making rail faster and safer for middle class commuters.
That’s my issue. Lol. I moved south of the airport, but most of the “good” jobs are north of the city. I made my choice due to many factors, but bringing more of those jobs to downtown or midtown would be ideal. Delta and CFA are the only big companies down this way for what I do. I’d rather commute to Macon before I deal with 400 to get to Alpharetta. Lol.
Touching on the downs of public transit (i.e, the homeless, drug use, cleanliness, etc.), you'll hear New Yorkers, transplants, tourists, and anyone else who goes to the city complain about this, and yet it still remains so widely used to this day (one of its lines is the most crowded one in the entire continent). I can confirm, since I have lived there for almost my entire life, and when I go back, I can't say I don't see some form of undesirable element, and yet even on weekends, depending on what line I hop on, the train can be packed (it does also have to do with population, geography, and history, since the metro area is by far the largest in the US by population, the city is on islands, and it dates back to the 1600s before the sprawling of the mid-20th Century came to be, not that you can sprawl on islands unless you're Long Island). I can't speak for everyone, but I can say how I am, and how many people are based on this, is this point right here: people will generally tolerate how nice or how shit a system looks if the system does what it's supposed to. I work in Philly, and as much as I speak on and on about the needles and cigarette buds I find on the MFL, I will still take it because it is useful and driving in Philly is an alternate I would rather avoid (what with having to put up with drivers and the mafia that is the Parking Authority). Same for New York. I live up in Lehigh County, and though there's a bus line that connects to the college and is near where I live, it has an absolutely appalling 1 hour headway, and the last bus leaves as soon as my evening class starts. So as much as I try and avoid driving if I can in a city, I make the decision to drive. I have taken MARTA before, and it seems like a system that gets the job done. I have also heard that poor headways contribute to low ridership. What can also contribute to low ridership is if you're a transportation system that not only is constantly late, but closes way too often for snow. That is what one of my buddies from Quincy said about MBTA, by the way. Yes, a transportation system in New England (Boston area, as well as Rhode Island), known for having horrible winters, apparently closes way too often for snow.
Simply put, people will take a public transit system if:
1. First and foremost, it is actually useful in getting you from Point A to Point B in a timely manner.
2. Public transit is, in some way shape or form, baked into the metro area's way of life (think CTA, WMATA, MTA/NJT and to an extent, SEPTA and MBTA)
Do not forget 3:
When driving in the area is so awful, and parking so scarce, you end up walking to your destination anyway. If you're walking 4 blocks to your destination, you might as well take the train. The station is about that far from your destination.
I live in Atlanta, and your list.... MARTA is none of those things. It is pretty much useless except for maybe the Red and Gold lines or at the very least, the Blue and Green lines from Decatur to Five Points. There were many lines proposed in the original MARTA plan from the 70's that were never built, crippling the system from the start. For one, MARTA rail doesn't even go near prominent Atlanta institutions like Emory University or the CDC as was originally drawn up. They have talked about putting light rail along the right of way of existing railroad tracks in what they call the "Clifton Corridor" as the road in the area is Clifton Road. It would create a line that would connect the Blue/Green MARTA heavy rail lines to the Gold Line.
And, as far as Atlanta's roads go, they are a confusing mess outside of the semi-grid in Downtown and Midtown (and it's still not consistent) because most of Atlanta's made arterial roads were paved over old wagon trails that just followed the path of least resistance based on terrain and other factors. Peachtree Street/Road itself was laid over an old Native American trail that predates European settlement. You're never going to have a comprehensive street system like using old 19th century routes as your guide. It is a sharp contrast to the meticulously planned D.C.
I can say as a person that lives in greater Boston. Snow closures have never affected me. Any rail service that closes is replaced with bus service. Of course if there is heavy snow then the rails will need to be cleared before trains can operate again
The stupid thing about the proposal with transit in the center of GA 400 is that no one thought it will actually be used. If you make BRT bus riders change to MARTA where it currently ends, transit ridership decreases the more times riders have to transfer from one mode to another. If the BRT busses continue past the MARTA station as express busses into downtown Atlanta, it may attract more riders.
Here in Nashville, TN, we are currently at the beginning of a PPP partnership (receiving input from citizens) to add toll lanes to I-24 from Murfreesboro, TN to just outside downtown Nashville. This will be the cheap version of toll lanes (plastic pipes to differentiate the toll lanes from the free lanes) vs. the more expensive versions with Jersey Walls separating the roadways built thorough downtown Orlando, FL and I-66 west of Washington, DC.
The BRT will also be MARTA
@@scpatl4now But it will still involve a transfer from the BRT to the train. They should have just extended the train up the median like they do inside the perimeter...
@@danbert8 No argument from me. The only thing is heavy rail is very expensive, but I think it would be worth it
@@scpatl4now Heavy rail is expensive up front, but maintaining extra BRT busses and paying staff and drivers vs just running longer train routes with existing hardware and drivers seems like it makes sense. Especially since you'll already have the grade separation and gentle grades of the middle of the highway anyway.
No way extending heavy rail MARTA is cheaper on a 10-20 year time scale.
@@danbert8I've never understood why each of the major interstates don't just have MARTA rail running right alongside them with stations at every major exit, OTHER than NIMBYism. Frankly it should have been implemented back when they built the interstates, but no one was thinking that far ahead. If people could just drive to the interstate, park, and then hop on a train to the office, way more people would take transit.
Thank you for laying down the reality check to people who think transit is the only solution to traffic. Transit works in very high population densities, there’s only one New York City in America.
Mike: I don't know what set you off in your "Thoughts and Conclusions" (10:47), but what a magnificent rant. Thank you for all for your work.
Fantastic video! I appreciate how you discuss the reality of the situation.
I kinda agree with you that building more mass transit isn't the magic solution. I think it has more to do with zoning laws. Most zoning laws state that you can't build residential and commercial buildings in the same area. These laws even promote the construction of more single-family homes because of this reason. This results in more suburban sprawl and increased distances from popular travel destinations that people go to. If we changed and updated the zoning laws to promote more mixed-use communities and denser neighborhoods, then that is how you truly incentivize the use and construction of mass transit.
For example, in Knoxville, TN, they updated the zoning laws a few years ago and the transformation on some of the main streets like Cumberland near the University has become less car-dependent. They narrowed the width of the road so that the speed of cars was reduced, built more sidewalks, and promoted more mixed-use zoning. This has resulted in more apartments being built with businesses being located at the ground level of these buildings. Plus, instead of having parking lots occupying valuable lots, these apartments have parking underground or at the ground level which keeps the existing parking while also building residential and commercial spaces on top.
Examples like Knoxville can show people that you can promote more pedestrian-friendly areas while also allowing people to use cars. This also results in less car dependency which can increase the demand for mass transit. I'm not saying that this is the true magic solution, I'm just putting this out there as a potential solution.
When I moved to Atlanta back in 1990, there was talk about an exterior loop around the city. It would be like the existing 285 but a few miles farther out. THAT would have helped Atlanta traffic immensely because most of the interstate traffic could totally bypass the city. The cost would have been astronomical but I still believe it would have been worth it.
People in Atlanta's suburbs won't use mass transit as long as Atlanta residents are on the trains. The suburbs want nothing to do with Atlanta. That's why it's so hard to expand MARTA in the region.
Doesn't help that at this point they don't even offer trains on the ballot. Every election its the same "would you like to pay 1% sales tax for more buses and some BRT", which I think to a lot of people means:
1. I get to pay more in taxes
2. Traffic will probably be terrible while they're building bus lanes, and they'll probably take away from car lanes
3. I still won't take the bus because it will still be quicker and more convenient for me to drive to work
I'd take a train to work if they put one that went straight from Cobb to Midtown where I could just work on my laptop the whole way there, but to your point, it will never happen.
But yet the work in the city of Atlanta, and their kids lives there, that makes no sense.
I’ve taken ATL mass transit many times and it is not pleasant. Definite safety concerns and vagrants. Complete lack of policing.
Racism white supremacy is why but it's fading in Atlanta
Hi Mike,
I wont say my name since its UA-cam, but im an urban planning student at the University of Illinois Chicago. I have been watching your content for about 2 years and am a big fan of the channel. I mention this because I have an idea and wanted to hear your feedback on it.
I have a big dream of fixing Chicago's major traffic problems and I have been working on ideas and solutions for a long time now.
What I propose is to build a community organization that would oversee all operations on the entirety of Chicago's expressway network and charge tolls on all expressways (similar to the Illinois Tollway) while simultaneously keeping the expressway construction federally/state-funded.
I know that tolls are a controversial topic, but I believe Americans wouldn't mind paying them if it meant that their communities would thrive in response. A term I like to call "dead money" would be used to fund these projects, because instead of spending it on something personal, you spend it on something that benefits your community in turn increasing your land value/potentially not spending money on something that the toll revenue pays for in your community. We also already have a poor tax base, so our taxes aren't really paying for a lot in terms of city projects, and instead are left to developers trying to make a profit.
The point of the tolls is to fund community projects that tackle intersectional challenges and social injustices within the communities that these expressways serve. This would include projects like fixing our public transport corridors and re-developing communities instead of gentrifying them. Things like welfare funding for those in need, and reducing our city-wide gas tax if possible as well. In a long-term plan, I believe in turning our trench expressways and viaducts into multi-modal transit corridors that are accessible for all. I believe that this plan for fixing our cities' transportation problems could work but of course, it is all hypothetical and it would require a lot of community involvement which is clearly lacking. But thats a whole other topic.
I just wanted to express how amazing this video is. The points that were discussed here about the "transit is the magic elixir" stigma that a lot of urban planning UA-camrs, though a civil engineer yourself, think of to raise awareness about the U.S.'s style of development and how it is so "detrimental". I can only hear so many sarcastic comments about how cookie-cutter suburbs are bad. We the people do forget we have power here as shown by your source from the 2019 Fulton County voter turnout rate. As someone who rides the CTA every day, I see the points that you talk about first-hand. This video really lit a spark in my brain I guess, cheers
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It could have an effect but the issue you'll run into with any proposed new taxes on those expressways is that it would probably require federal approval to put tolls on roads that aren't already tolled and that's a very tall order politically. Then the issue of selling it to citizens as something that's good for the overall community. But yeah, existing transportation corridors are the most ideal for adding new transportation infrastructure like rail, BRT, etc. as it's usually costly and difficult to carve out new corridors in built up areas.
People and businesses the are already taxed to death in Illinois leading to a declining population. Where is all of that tax revenue going now? I'm sure auto insurance is very expensive. The old freeways were paid for by the citizens long ago, and their gas-taxes in Illinois pay for maintenance. Tolls added on top of everything else to throw more money at the lowest economic bracket to fix their issues? I don t see any connection between the 2 subjects. Public transit is already in place. Can economically disadvantaged residents get to jobs and education now in Chicago? How would taking more money from commuters going to work be used to cure social injustices? Yes freeways cut through poor neighborhoods 70 years ago. People aren't forced to stay in any one place. Rich and poor areas to live exist by the dozens across all US cities. Redlining ended in the 70s. It seems like you are just looking for a new untapped source of funding to be used for an unrelated purpose.---Perhaps a lucrative gun buy back program would save lives and hundreds of millions spent by the city every summer. on medical and police. That's what Chicago has become famous for to the rest of the country. So much wasted money spent in emergency rooms, funerals, etc., police detail. I don't mean to sound critical, but that's what should be remedied first.
As an Atlanta native that lives in the east suburbs, this shit is dumb. Just like how 75 North in Marietta and 75 South between Stockbridge and McDonough, and even the just now completed Ga 400/285 interchange, ITS STILL GRIDLOCKED.
Even 20/285 East and West are getting added lanes currently and I'll guess around 6 months -1 year it'll still be gridlocked.
I just wish MARTA heavy rail or even commenter rail will expand to all suburbs and exurbs. But I know all the oldheads will never let that happen. That's why I wanna be an engineer out of spite.
Yeah I live in McDonough and I'm like I don't see the point of express lanes. Not to mention it won't solve anything. To be honest they should have at least have a rail system so it can at least expand outwards. But you are right they won't allow it (at least where I live) outside Clayton County. And to be honest the traffic in McDonough is horrid. I know they are building and widening roads but it will become a problem again.
I've never seen I-75 Express Lanes in Cobb not flowing freely in afternoon rush period and tolls never above $5. In other words that project works well. South I-75 Lane is going to be changed to get another lane I think. Express Lanes always flow 45 mph. That's what you are paying for. Variable pricing guarantees free flow forever, only accidents cause it to stop.
You should open a driving school and stop crying. The roads are fine, but too many geniuses can't drive a car properly. Watch 6 car links between every car when the turn arrow is green. Geniuses 💯.... And man say he wants to be an engineer. 😂
Nobody wants the homie g's bussin a cap in their expensive neighborhoods. Can't say I blame them either. Atlanta is a complete sh*thole. Public transit only seems to benefit the people who can't hold down a job to afford a car. So, they get public transit access for free and commit crimes. The people who live in suburbs outside Atlanta are there because they don't want to live in Atlanta. Why bring the miscreants in Atlanta to you via public transit? Screw Marta.
Your commentary was RIGHT ON. I grew up in Pittsburgh of the 60s, they still had an extensive private streetcar system until the county took it over in 1964 and immediately abandoned all but a couple of south hills routes that were on private right of way. When downtown had the most corporate headquarters between NYC and Chicago the streetcars and LRV were heavily used, but after most of those companies (including Fortune 500 companies like Heinz, US Steel, Mellon Bank, numerous steel companies, IBM, Westinghouse etc merged or went out of business, and department stores like Macy's (twice) Saks 5th Av, Lord and Taylor, shut down their downtown locations, there is no reason to shop there. Only going to events at the 2 stadiums on the Northside the arena in the nearby "hill district" and downtown Convention center see use of the busses and LRVs as a private (once mob affiliated) owner runs virtually all the parking garages downtown and parking is still expensive. I moved to Norfolk Va in 1978 and about a decade ago, the country was in a frenzy to build LRV routes, the city spent $400 million to build a 7 mile "starter line" from downtown east to the Va. beach line. As it was being planned (originally it was to cost only $200 M) neighboring cities of Va. Beach (which was on the former NS freight line the cities bought to build the LRV line on) Chesapeake and even Portsmouth (whch would have required an expensive high rise bridge or tunnel to access it, After being a year behind schedule and costing 2x it's original estimate all three cities backed off, Va. Beach was forced to hold a referendum which the opposition complained that a light rail line to the oceanfront would "bring those people from Norfolk (blacks from the projects)" into Va. Beach, and it was defeated, and the city had to pay the state back the $40M they paid NS for the right of way to extend the LRV route. Which the public now wants made into a "rail trail". After Covid enthusiasm for any extensions of the line disappeared and it starts in an interstate created office / motel park, passes another office park, goes over an expansive tidal creek, where it stops at Norfolk State U. (and HBCU), and passes our baseball park/Antrak station, and downtown stops at City Hall, a now defunct mall, and ends at the medical center west of downtown. It serves almost NO residential areas as it was expected that Va. Beach would be providing the passengers when they built out their 12 miles. We also had a Republican GOvernor (McDonald) who was convicted of taking bribes after he left office, who sold our 2 tunnels to Portsmouth from Norfolk to a private company for 70 years and build a twin at the midtown Tunnel which was 2 way, and started at a $2 a trip toll, with a 3% a year automatic increase in rates. Rates now are over $3 and can top out at !$10 a trip eventually. These tolls have made Portsmouth an "island" as drivers who don't need to go there for business no longer go there for movies, restaurants, festivals etc. A third high rise bridge is also privately owned by another company that built it from scratch when the 75 YO drawbridge owned by the city of Chesapeake had to be demolished and the city was not going to replace it so the Jordan Bridge was built with totally private funds to Portsmouth, leaving only US 17 from the south as a FREE way into the city but a half hour detour to miss the tolls. McDonald also attempted to get a private toll road built from Suffolk along current US 460 to Petersburg, a 90 mlle road that was supposed to carry port traffic to I 85/95. After spending a quarter billion of tax payer money we found out the Corps of Engineers was NEVER going to approve the road going through the swamps er fragile wetlands US 460 crosses. Then he privatized the maintanence/ snow removal (of which we have little of here) on I 64/264 and eliminating all the VDOT jobs that used to do that job. As their 5 year contract was coming up for renewal, they did less and less maintanence until the interstates got so bad that lines of cars were on the side of the roads where they hit huge holes that ruined their wheels and tires and cost VDOT tens of thousands as they were sued for the poor condition of the poorly maintained roads. It was SO BAD, that VDOT had to prematurely cancel the contract and on an emergency basis repave the entire system in Norfolk and jack hammer out broken sections of concrete and replace entire slabs. We forget that Republicans reward their donors with these PPP contracts that provide them with taxpayer funds and profits (to donate to future campaigns) while Democrats prefer to keep government functions under the control of the voters and government.
Just a quick reply about the residents of Virginia Beach worrying about the "wrong people" coming to their neighborhoods if the Tide LRT was built to the oceanfront.
They're actually dumber than you think, because what they obviously failed to realize is that the HRT buses ALREADY goes there anyway 😅😂 and has been going there for well over 30 years.
As always, excellent video! I grew up in Metro Atlanta and lived there for a little over 50 years, the last 30 of those close to 400. Best of luck to all who are still there, because road construction for the next 6 years is going to be a mess.
15:20. I’m a former UNCC student and the light rail was very convenient going from the campus to uptown charlotte. However we would get random drifters who would wander around the dorms of the campus after riding the train there. Now there is a gate at one of the pathways that you have to swipe your campus id card just to access the inner parts of the campus.
Went there as well my senior year the blue line opened and you are not wrong!
@ remember that tunnel that goes under Wallis hall? That’s where the gate thingy is now. It’s really a glass door but you gotta swipe your id just to access the courtyard in north village.
As someone living off of Holcomb bridge rd I’ve thought about this. One transit system will NOT solve our issues. We do need to expand marta or have an equivalent system that will link up to Marta. Personally I was thinking about sky trams instead of ground rail but not sure if that will be fast enough. Local cities / neighborhoods need to sponsor electric golf carts or e bikes so locals can get to the bigger transit points / local grocer easily without having to own a car. Charge per use and a penalty if not returned. Track via gps. Different cities can try different methods and then the best can catch on from there. The alt Marta could be sky tram / fancy busses (with food service and charging ports for all seats) / rail / monorail / other ways to move people around 50 to 60 mph. Solve the local issue, and then connect local spots of heavy traffic. There is my idea good sir. Please poke holes in it and let’s come up with something better.
I think they’re turning exit 7 into a diverging diamond interchange…
Golf carts/e-bikes are a great idea, and as places like Peachtree City show, people will just buy their own as long as you build the trail network for them, which is MUCH cheaper and easier to build and maintain than actual roads because it's basically just glorified bike trails. You grade, put down a bed of gravel, and throw blacktop on top of it. And you can fit them in gaps you would NEVER be able to fit an actual road in, or just incorporate them into greenspace while only cutting enough trees to fit the path itself (no shoulder needed).
It's the same concept as cars, but takes up way less space, requires way less infrastructure, and obviously pollutes way less.
As long as you don't need to leave the city (most people work in Atlanta so they need a car), you can literally live on Peachtree City without a car. You'll just be stuck there because the next step would be to actually have a transit line that goes to Atlanta.
Trail networks just might be the answer when combined with a rail hub for each area. The ONLY major sticking point is that if I parked my golf cart at a MARTA station, I would FULLY expect it to get stolen or vandalized. They're not exactly the most secure vehicles. No doors and unless you change the key, most brands have a universal key for all their carts, since they were designed as golf course fleet vehicles.
@@Michael-uc2pnthat has been done in many metro areas ,I've seen it work i. Flowery bran h Georgia but it took a out 20 years to finally be completed
Transit tends to work better in older denser cities in the US like Chicago or New York. These cities were built around walking and transit when they were developed. Newer cities like Houston and Atlanta were built around highways so everything about them is built for that. The thing I like about where I live is that the things I like are relatively close to where I live. That means I don't have to drive that far to do what I want to do.
Chicago is around the same age as Atlanta, no drastic difference. Incorporates between 1833-1837 and Atlanta 1837-1843(terminus&Marthasvillle). Houston was established in 1837 and was Spanish at the time. Even then European nations and others put every city in America to shame as far as walkability, density and blueprint. Rabat, Morocco runs circles around NYC and Chicago lol, these cities are still car centric regardless, just the lesser evil in context lol. A better comparison would be Savannah, Ga to Atlanta, a city built in the early to mid 17th century and planned properly
The big difference is whether the city had enough money to kick out highway bulldozing. NYC kicked out Robert Moses. Houston at this time, was flattened.
Even during Moses's time, you can see what parts of the city he was unable to touch due to NIMBYs. The Bronx got bulldozed for the Cross Bronx. Manhattan remains mostly intact
I lived in Atlanta from 2001 to 2012. They should have built a second loop decades ago! I live in Texas now. They might not do everything great, but they know how to build highways!
3:15 This render looks completely insane.
And the render shows 2 typical ATL NPC trucks in the left lane of the general use lanes..... and a car tailgating them so this is must be exactly what its going to be like.
Middle: bus lanes and express lanes
Outside: PEASANTS
Left lane outside: NPCs 😂
But seriously public safety should just set up cameras in the left lanes that detect and auto ticket any 18-wheelers driving in the left lane. There are signs on every overpass that tell them it's not allowed, and these are professional truck drivers, they should know better. Maybe mailing them a $50 idiot ticket would generate some revenue and change the behavior.
I mean the only thing I like that they're adding are the BRT lanes. I don't think adding more lanes is going to make it more effective like you said.
Although I am curious, would it benefit to also have like a separate truck Lane(s) ?
Personally I think truck lanes would be a significant benefit on the I-75 corridor, particularly south of Atlanta, since a lot of that 18-wheeler traffic is probably just long haul traffic that's using I-75 as a railroad alternative and separating it from the cars would make everything flow more smoothly and hopefully more safely. You could even have dual purpose bus and 18-wheeler lanes as long as the trucks weren't causing backups and slowing the buses down.
@@Michael-uc2pn bus will need its own seperate lane on the CVL lanes.
Everything you said in the video was spot on! I currently live in Dawson county right off of Georgia 400. My wife and I absolutely hate it up here because the growth has gotten to be too much. When we moved here we were actually trying to get away from the growth but we didn't do our research and realize that Dawsonville is a growing area just like Forsyth county. In the 5 years we've been here, the growth has been phenomenal and it's at the point where we're averaging a new construction project every other week. We're actually are going to move to another state next April because it's gotten so bad. And judging by when this project is supposed to start, we're moving at the perfect time. 400 is already a nightmare and this is going to make it worse as far as the road work. As far as it being cheap to live here, this is true compared to other areas but for the average person like my wife and I, we can't afford anything up here.
What people don’t realize is cramming all this development in here so fast, soon it’s gonna be like New Jersey, your taxes are gonna skyrocket. New school more police, more highways and more infrastructure to maintain etc
Move to South Georgia. The State will forget that you exist 😂
Great video Mike, I enjoyed watching & learning about mobility issues in ATL!
I live in the northern part of the controlled-access GA 400 corridor and this is going to be a nightmare. I already avoid going to Atlanta unless I absolutely have to (which is rare), and this will make it sooo much worse. I live 3 miles from where I work, don't need to use GA 400 at all... but it still impacts my commute. It's nothing more than a concrete river with limited crossings, just like the Chattahoochee River and Lake Lanier to the east of GA 400. This will push more vehicles onto surface streets during construction, which already struggle to handle increased traffic during "leaf peeper weekends". This is zero benefit to me, so I guess I should be happy that a private firm is paying for it... but that's only IF they don't fold. This has BAD IDEA written all over it.
First time viewer. Awesome video, earned my subscription.
This is thoughtful and almost depressing. There is no solution. I spent half my life in Atlanta back when you could still easily get around. Those days are gone. I now live in rural NC and use the Peach Pass lanes when I visit the city. I consider it the cost of entry!
Interesting fact: the "Eastbound and Down" scene from Smokey and the Bandit was filmed on this section of GA 400, although it is set in Alabama. There is at least one I-285 sign visible however. At that time, this section of GA 400 was only two lanes in each direction.
There’s another scene in that movie where you can see it was filmed on a California freeway 😂.
My kinda man as a guy who's totally in awe with America's roads & has been blessed to criss cross them in a big rig 🙏...I can jump on 400/19 pretty easy up Noth side...I can tell you it's a driver's road you berry know what the hell you're doing or else don't go!!! As an alternate route to go down to Atl widening this thoroufare will definitely be a game changer...when you know you know... 🙏
As someone who is from Boston but moved to Atlanta as a teenager because my Grandmother retired to live in the area because she loved the city, I did advocate for Atlanta to get transit expansion. I did advocate for the ability to walk more, to have better transit (even buses, as they did not exist in Snellville where my Grandmother retired to), to have better bike networks. However, after years of realizing none of that would come to the area before I grew old, I chose to pack my bags and go home.
I love my family, but I find myself significantly happier in Boston where I am able to walk, bike, or take transit where I need to, and where if I drive it is a choice I can make based on the circumstances rather than feeling like it is a requirement. I hate to say I've lost hope, but unfortunately it feels like a hard truth that transit in Atlanta will improve very slowly, if ever; and even with the BRT proposals: If I chose to drive to take transit, why would I drive to a bus rapid transit stop to take the train, when I could sit in traffic for just a bit longer and go directly to the train? It saves the hassle of transferring and it's easier to plan around getting to the train on time because I can at least control when I leave and (within reason) how fast my car goes.
I feel bad for Atlanta
I visited in 1995 for a weekend, main problem I saw was where I75 and I85 merged, downtown traffic was a somewhat issue
Now after 30 years and the growth I hear they have had, I wonder if traffic is as bad as NYC, probably not but must have closed the gap some
It’s really just the freeways like 75 and 85 and 285 that’s bad. Surface roads aren’t terrible (at least on a Saturday). DC is probably a good comparison to Atlanta.
@@idriveastationwagon1534 I don't know about D.C. surface roads but I would say D.C. interstates are between NYC and Atlanta quality
Last time I went through D.C., I entered by I-66 first time taking it, halfway heading East it became like bumper to bumper rush hour traffic sitting still a lot with small movements forward, repeat
Took a long time for me to get through that on half of I-66
Then I got to I-495 beltway, hated that too
Since then unless I have to do something in D.C., I look for routes that go around it, WAY around it
Its actually not that bad except for early morning and 5 o clock commutes
Awesome video. Every time I have this conversation with people (Cough cough in Gwinnett), I always ask them how can you convince Suburban families to stop using the cars they have ***bought with their own money*** and pay money to be on a bus with 30-50 other people going down to Atlanta. I believe public transit is our future, but profit in this country and in this world will always supersede what's best for society.
Beautifully put! So balanced and so true.
1)Well at least GDOT is doing something to alleviate traffic on GA 400 north of the I-285. I see no problem with express lanes in the main city and its suburbs. But my gut feelings is this project might not do the trick.
2)Yeah urbanists have to realize that unknown amount of people want a single family home instead of mid to high density housing. And it’s hard to incorporate metro rail into low density sprawling metropolitan area like Atlanta.
3)I wonder is this is the freeway revolt coming back to bite the Atlanta metropolitan area? Or zoning laws coming back to bite the Atlanta metropolitan area?
People are having less kids or no kids and the generations now and younger aren’t even having children. Not sure why they are building single homes as if this is a baby boom with nuclear families everywhere.
Wrong city. It's not _the_ I-285.
Personally, I think the best future of public transit is a complicated mix of busses, trains, mini-buses, and driverless taxis. It would require an app to navigate though and have the vehicles synced to the app to calculate the best way from point a to b.
The way the outer suburbs in American cities are set up, most trips here would most likely be done with driverless taxi or mini- buses that don't follow a set route. Say you are going from your house to the mall, either a driverless taxi would come pick you up and take you straight to the destination or a mini-bus that functions similar to a larger uber pool would take you there.
Say you are going from the suburbs to a game in the stadium downtown. You might be picked up by the driverless taxi or a mini-bus then driven to nearby large bus or train station that takes you downtown. If traffic isn't that bad or multiple people in your area are heading to the same area, the driverless taxi or mini-bus could take you directly where you want to go. Which in the case of an event downtown, a mini-bus could be ideal as there could be other people in your neighborhood or along the way that also want to go to the same event or another nearby in downtown.
Under this system, most routes, except rapid transit lines would be dynamic. The main train and bus lines would run with regular frequent service along set lines. The taxis and mini-buses mainly would follow demand driven routes from people putting in requests on the app to go from one place to another. They could also follow set routes that don't see as many riders.
I think cities should not just sit by while Uber takes over this market and actively buy these smaller buses (that by the way don't require CDLs) and invest in a fleet of driverless taxis themselves so there would be a functional suburban public transit system that would connect with the more urban public transit system.
Excellent information and real conversation about the northern suburbs.
Mike I love this channel you put a great video together.
Embrace work from home for those that can. You'd eliminate 40% of traffic.
💯
The board members of the large employers are heavily invested into commercial real estate so the will not allow those offices to stay vacant.
@@universaljustice7376 ....... While the board members work remotely.
@@universaljustice7376 Huh? Keep paying millions in rent so my stock portfolio doesn't get hit? Maybe, but it's a stretch.
Your last comment about the Outer Perimeter is spot on! That project should have been built when the chance existed. It would now be impossible to do it.
Since Atlanta is developing at a fast rate. Any land for a outer beltway will cause revolts.
Living in Alpharetta, there's a bus stop very near my home. If I'm going to the airport, I find it fairly convenient to walk to the bus and ride it to the North Springs station, switch to train and take it all the way to the airport. It costs me $2.50 and it keeps my heart rate low as I'm not dealing with 50 insane lane changes cutting me off on the trek down 400, 85, and 75. That said, the bus and transfer adds a legit 45-60 minutes to the trip. I'm okay with it, but most would not be. I'm also fine with it if going to a Hawks or Falcons game.
I personally wouldn't mind the train being extended to the Windward P&R with stops at North Point Mall and Old Milton (Avalon). I agree with others that the way you make that work is, shocker, enforce the law. You have to get rid of the troublemakers on the train. Drugs, panhandling, general crazy behavior needs enforced against.
I tend to just avoid 400 if at all possible. I'll spend the extra 20 minutes on GA-9 if I'm wanting to go to Sandy Springs or Dunwoody. Less crazy drivers and less chance of a total shutdown due to a crash. And since Alpharetta has 99% of what I want, I rarely bother leaving. Living someplace you want to spend the vast majority of your time is a great suggestion.
Insightful vid as always
I live in north Cobb county, drive all over Atlanta daily. You are spot on with so many points. Great video.
MANY great points! As an Atlanta area resident, I'm rather sick of the ruthless and mindless zoning (mixing industrial/commercial ((warehouses)) and residential without buffers) and cut-throat housing developments (packing in 100+ houses in 2-3 acres of land...This honestly is not sustainable - especially 50 years out. My commute times have gotten longer year over year. The roads can't take the over-development. You can't have equal amounts of semi-trucks and SUVs cohabiting in the suburbs... This all adds to the traffic equation.
gDOT just replaced,the 285 400 interchange. They need to give construction a rest and let us 400 drivers enjoy a drive without construction. The 285 400 interchange took 8 years. Originally 4 years.
It will take an extra 4 or 5 years for this.
Btw for 6 billion they should be able to afford marta heavy rail.
This was a thorough video and you did your research. Thanks.
My take on Atlanta is the “interstate “ traffic is just about the vehicles that do not have ATL as a destination, they are just trying to traverse around the city . As a example when I was going north on I-75 from Macon there was a extensive accident just north of Forsyth Ga that had traffic stopped for hours and I found my way around it and was able to get back on I-75 enroute to Cumming Ga and much to my surprise the traffic was very light all the way around I-285 and at 5:00 pm the traffic was very sparse to 400 in fact I took a video of the traffic because no one would believe me, and I agree with you that the state missed their chance for the outer perimeter. In addition you can look for even more truck traffic in the future due to Savannah port upgrades to Super container ships and that freight will coming to a roadway to you in Atlanta. Oh yes excellent report.
Well said, Mike. I lived not far from the proposed North Fulton Expressway (GA 400) growing up. I doubted it would be built but it was, years later. The lack of political will in Atlanta to build the rest of the missing freeways to provide a second north-south route thru the city puts too much pressure on I-85/75. You are so right in that if you don't build it early, building it later will be more difficult and more expensive. Your myth-busting is also welcome. With the misnamed I-4 Ultimate in Orlando, the fare structure does not change (cheap!) and I seldom see it with much traffic. Now if these lanes were extended to Volusia County in the east, and past US 27 in the west, the income would skyrocket as the congestion is much worse outside the downtown.
I'm in Sandy Springs, about a half mile from 400. Crazy that a many years long current project leads immediately into another. Abernathy is whoa now! Safer maybe, but crazy.
A well done and insightful video. Thank You.
Great information,quite thorough. I think one of the reasons the Marta isn’t used is because catered to the more affluent, not in an areas it would more likely be utilized .
Mike, so I live in the northern ATL suburbs in cobb but closer to 400 than I-75. You’re 100% correct, most people in this area won’t ride Marta regardless of it being cheaper or faster… for some of the reasons you said but also bc it doesn’t really go anywhere useful besides the airport. And to take it to the airport from sandy springs or even medical center is 45min to an hour and you’ve got to worry about your bags being stolen. For those that work downtown they also won’t take it bc it’s so hot here in the summer no one wants to get to the office all sweaty and the Marta stops downtown aren’t in the most convienent areas either.
However, I know it’s an old topic that seems dead but would love you to do a video on it bc it would really help the traffic here, if we had an outer perimeter. For example a top beltway from i20 or 75 that passes thru the area between Marietta and Woodstock, Alpharetta and cumming, and meets up with I-85 in Gwinnett. I forgot the reasoning behind it being shot down but if the state does have the money and we know it would help traffic why not build a toll road similar to Maryland building the one from Rockville to I-95?
Yeah it's funny my sister lives in a McMansion in Forsyth county and 400 is a nightmare already, and she wonders why I won't move to ATL 😅
Thanks for bringing up the disastrous Toll Lanes on I-77 as a CLT native, the public wasn't even given an option to vote for it and it's been a disaster. What's worse is the state already had a plan to expand to 4 lanes each direction over a decade ago AND the money to support it but took the corrupt/easy route instead.
In the late 2000s Charlotte got the lion's share of project funding. The huge, impressive I-485 completion and I-85 being widened to 8 lanes all the way to Lexington, NC. All of that funding for those huge improvements meant I-77 would have to wait for 20 years while the rest of the state's tremendous needs were funded. Charlotte has by far the biggest and nicest freeways. Raleigh's 540 outer-loop is 60% tolled, and is now $8-11 per trip with no free lanes or alternative route. No complaints in Raleigh though which gets shortchanged being fair to the rest of the state.
Real talk! Thanks for another great video Mike!
Yes, they should have built the outer perimetre.
Maybe. Maybe not. I don't see the relevance of the outer perimeter in regards to a North/South highway leading out of Atlanta. One has nothing to do with the other.
@@DawgInDawsonville It is relevant to the extent the highway network in the city does not have redundancies, that would help share the traffic loads. people in the norther suburbs could take the outer perimeter to I-575 to I-75 into the city as an alternate route. It should not always about widening verses offering alternative freeways to reduce the traffic on the fewer freeways.
@user-ci9ri4fl5pBuckeyeChessie Hwy 53. Hwy 140. Hwy 20. Why do you need an outer perimeter to get from 75 to 575 and vice versa? I live by Hwy 400 and use all 3 of those with regularity. And I still fail to see what any of that (outer perimeter, 53, 140, 20) has to do with the video at hand.
I felt like you were talking directly to some folks down there in GA😂
Someone’s gotta bring them to reality
Alpharetta Autobahn! Indeed. At one point Marta was looking at running up to windward parkway. A lot of building got bought up on speculation that it was going to happen and not a lot of landlords are holding the bag. So the main advantage of Marta to Windward would be for young workers who live in the city and don't want to own a car and take a job in Alpharetta. Your video is eyeopening and I even learned a couple. I live off of 85 in the northeast corridor
Intelligent analysis and data gathering. Great video.
i agree with everything said, most people won't accept that despite wanting more transit, they'd indirectly preffer a style of development that prioritize single family homes and sprawl, totally incompatible with transit
Except that people have lived in single family homes outside of Manhattan and have for generations driven to the train station to take the train into work.
I was born and raised in the most congested state (NJ) in the country. NY/NJ is all toll roads and it doesn't help relieve traffic. The NY/NJ Port Authority owns bridges, tunnels, airports, seaports, and highways in the NY/NJ metro area and the roads and bridges all charge outrageously high tolls. The NY/NJ Port Authority has grown so big that it has become a monoploy that continously increases tolls to support six figure salaries and benefits of it's employees while the traffic congestion gets worse.
I moved to Atlanta, GA. back in the 1980's to get away from NJ toll roads and over taxation. Atlanta always had traffic problems and now that a lot of NY\NJ residents moved to Atlanta, they are bringing their bad ideas (tolls and mass transit) with them. Mass transit works in NYC but not in Atlanta suburbs. It takes twice as long to get from Point A to B on mass transit. People in Atlanta like their vehicles because they make multiple stops (child care, food store, cleaners) while going to and from work. You can't do that on mass transit.
Taxing (tolls) on Atlanta roads does not resolve the traffic problems. All it does is tax you to sit in traffic. The express lanes are usually more congested than the free lanes. If all the lanes were express lanes, you are still dealing with the same amount of vehicles using the same amount of lanes. Atlanta's traffic problem is due to major office projects (Perimeter, Galleria) being built in the same area causing everyone to travel to one location at the same time. Additional issues are traffic lights on top of ramps, tractor trailers and cars using the same lanes, and Atlanta suburbs being spread out. Selling highways to a private for-profit company is a really bad idea.
Great vid Mike! Amazingly, I don’t think I’ve ever driven GA-400! Decentralizating cities can help reduce commutes, the way Atlanta had many offices at 75&285 on the north side of town, or a lot of warehouses on the SE side of town. But, like you said, people will buy their dream home even if the commute is ridiculously long! Thx!
Having spent several years in Roswell, GA I used the MARTA a fair bit. Back when 400 was a toll road, taking MARTA from North Springs to the airport was the way to go. No need to mess with the crazy pickup area and parking at the airport. Parking at Marta also used to be significantly cheaper.
Minneapolis and St Paul metro has the best transit system I've seen in the US. They also have a unique school system with Anoka Hennipen County school system with transit vouchers if you want your kid to go to a different school in the school system.
I-77 in north Charlotte, which is a combo tolled cluster F--- in its own right, is completely crazy expensive to drive per mile and hated by almost all in Charlotte and Mecklenburg county. The ATL has become one huge bottleneck however that isn't built for mass transit, so what are they going to do...? I'm personally still waiting for the flying cars that were promised many years ago to fix everything. lol Absolutely GREAT video Mike!
When GA400 had a dedicated bus lane (about 15 years ago) the bus ridership was amazing. Even when the buses could use the shoulder it was good. Then drivers complained that they wanted to use the extra lane and they converted the dedicated bus lane to a shared lane with cars. After that ridership plummeted and times greatly increased. I think there are plenty of people who will come back if the bus ride from Windward Parkway goes back to 15 minutes like it was when the buses had their own private lane.
Great presentation as usual! As someone who has been on both sides of the transportation and land development discussion, I agree with what you presented and how you debunked the usual cure-all alternatives, particularly the comments against regional-scale alternative transportation modes, e.g., MARTA and BRT, which are only expensive afterthoughts (boondoggles?) that won't attract the target ridership needed to be sustainable.
"Public transportation, rail, in particular, makes property values go down." -heard in an Atlanta suburb. What is the solution to this problem, whether it's real or imagined?
Great commentary I appreciate as a native Atlanta suburbanite. Recent election further proof of your point as both Gwinnett and Cobb counties voted down sales tax increases for expansion of bus service.
Lifelong mostly-suburban Atlantan here. I don't like this video, but I'm gonna make a few succinct comments:
Transit will never relieve traffic congestion to any appreciable degree. It will, however, enable some mobility even in the face of severe congestion. These express lanes do basically the same thing: they'll have no detectable effect on overall congestion, but they'll make it possible for people with money to get where they're going a lot quicker that they'd otherwise be able to.
I hadn't heard about the express lanes being sold off, but it's obvious why they did it: GDOT plans to build similar lanes along the top half of I-285, and they'll be a lot more expensive because the parts between I-75 and I-85 will be mostly elevated. They need all the public money they can get for that because they're too expensive to make a profit.
Keeping up with demand for new roads in Atlanta would've required systematically buying right-of-way in the late sixties-early seventies, plus getting used to the idea of toll roads. More or less what Texas has done except that their benign terrain made it feasible to build frontage roads years or decades before the freeways or tollways and thus get some return on the investment. Now it's far too late-- another thing for the whiners to grab a clue about. As far as the Outer Perimeter, it amounts to building a 200-mile highway because we couldn't get it together to build a much more useful 100-mile highway when it was feasible.
Great analysis, sir. The traffic has been horrible there for years. At one time they were number 1 in the nation for roadside births.
Great video, especially the commentary about mass transit. Do you think something like Tesla's Cybercab or Robovan could be a happier medium between everyone driving solo and mass transit?
Haha, love me the Atlanta Autobahn! 😅 I live right at the top of this massive expansion (McFarland exit off 400). Good thing I work from home!
I live in northern Mecklenburg County and use the I-77 tolls lanes occasionally. It is hard to evaluate the effect because of the COVID shutdown. Even as things have come back, I don’t think the traffic problem is as bad as it was before the project. We still have traffic jams at many of the same spots, but we have the option not to be part of them. We have express bus service into Charlotte, and the buses can use the express lanes and not be stuck in traffic. The bus service runs only during rush hours and not at all on Saturdays, so you can’t take it into town for a concert or show and come back that night. We’ve been planning on commuter rail for years, but state and federal governments have been blocking it. They won’t even let us vote to add more sales tax to fund it. We are buying the tracks from Norfolk Southern in hopes it gets going. If it gets built, I’m likely to be too old to be comfortable heading into town on foot by then. I do enjoy an occasional day trip on the express bus in nice weather. I’m afraid that the commuter rail will have the same limited hours as the bus, so limited usefulness for us retirees.
Since I’m rarely driving on I-77 at peak times, the tolls lanes don’t cost me a lot. I take them sometimes even when traffic is not that bad. Even moderate traffic seems to travel in clumps. So in the regular lanes, you speed up and then slow down behind the next clump. On the toll lanes, you zip right past all that. You may not get there that much quicker, but you arrive more relaxed. I don’t notice the occasional $20 charge on my credit card to replenish my balance for the tolls. If I’m coming off the Brookshire Freeway heading home, I take the express lane exit. Whatever it costs is worth it for the convenience and I think safety.
77 from charlotte to Huntersville traffic is absolute ass during rush hour. And the toll prices are insane for anyone using it on a daily basis at peak times. Most people don’t use them so you end up having an 8 line highway with 4 of them being used at 5% capacity
@ It’s a choice. You can sit in the traffic or you can pay a toll. If you are traveling at commuting hours, you can ride free in the toll lanes if you have two passengers. For a small amount of money you can ride in the toll lanes in the express bus. Before the pandemic I used to attend photography workshops each fall at the Convention Center. I’d take the bus into town in the morning, and then back home in the evening. It worked great. Usually there were quite a few well dressed business folks heading in. It was not the stereotype that racist folks have about bus riders. Occasionally, I’d just spend a day in town going to museums and such. I had a great time.
@ Toll lanes don’t really cut down on congestion. They just let you decide whether to be part of it. It would have made more sense to build the Red Line commuter rail first. But the Bush transportation department wouldn’t help fund it. Toll lanes was their idea of mass transit. The politics of the changing leadership of Norfolk Southern meant that the Red Line wouldn’t be done anyway. The current NC legislature is blocking our voting an additional transit tax so it may never happen even now that the use of the tracks seems to have been worked out. Some development along the corridor has continued anyway.
Public transportation is gross. I enjoy my bubble
Beauty and creativity. I’d love to see cute wooden electric trollies running on paths and wooden bridges. The best spots in our city are at old trolly stops. We definitely have the trees for it. The oak trees the city planted are all full grown now and just falling down on houses every time the wind blows. Harvest them for raw materials and replace them with fields of fast growing bamboo for an even more versatile raw material, cleaner rain gutters, and carbon capture. The trollies might be unmanned or operated by someone authorized to defend the riders. Elevated bridges where needed, like the one that weaves through the botanical gardens, or the boardwalk at Mason mill park, would be much less intrusive than roadways or tracks, human scale, and beautiful.
Bamboo is invasive. Absolutely not.
Great and truthful video MM. Marta is poorly run and suffers the after-effects of that poor operation. I have been taking Marta to my job in Midtown/Downtown for ~15 years and I can attest. Marta should be a state agency as most regional transit systems are but it was doomed from the start being run by the city. The City of Atlanta cannot run anything well including the airport. After years of failing to expand regional transit, Atlanta is stuck with what it has. I am planning my exit from the city within the next 5 years and cannot wait. Traffic, sprawl, and poor management have reduced this once-great city to a disaster. That along with the fact that areas of the city incorporated so they would not get annexed has created a fractured and inefficient metro which is very unfortunate for everyone.
Very detailed and thoughtful analysis video. Makes me ponder the quantity of stops Marta has and if they’re frequent.
Good video. Fair & balanced.
A few things i didnt hear (i multitask so i may have missed it). The state tax refund is a 1 time refund. A project like this not only is a sale for construction expenses but also includes maintenance.
You are correct that a private entity could file bankruptcy. Just like a public construction contract could go 40-80% overbudget. There are worst case scenarios for every scenario.
Great job. I appreciate your insights.
I have been stymied by the Atlanta roadways for years. I have lived in Atlanta since 1965 and seen vast change. I honestly think what we need is to retest drivers on the rules of the road and get those drivers off who can't abide by them. Most have no concept of looking in their rear view mirrors to see the dynamics of the roadway. Often the volume of traffic is hampered by the 50 mph driver in the fast lane who drives the same speed as the car next to him/her not allowing anyone to pass. When things stack up what I notice on I-75, I-85 and I-285 is that they are loaded with tractor trailers for miles and very little way around them. With the use of simulators people could be tested in their homes.
The drivers here are out of control !
When cities were physically smaller, public transit worked, because it was readily available to your home, which was often an apartment. That's not been the case since the rise of the suburb after World War II and the development of the Interstate system. Walking to or from public transit with a load of groceries or other stuff from the store (and kids) became more difficult, or outright dangerous. Thus, the 'station wagon' to connect between public transit and the new suburban house you got with a VA loan. That worked somewhat until white flight became common and commercial passenger rail failed in the late 60's, especially as cars made it easier to get door-to-door for school, shopping at the new mall or dropping off Dad to grab the train. This is ancient history from 50-75 years ago. I remember it directly because I lived it. Even much of the Federal (US) highways were patchworks of state highway systems dating back to the 1920's (and some still are). The world started getting faster, and what there was when I was a kid no longer existed. There were many more people, and many more upon that. Cities couldn't hold them. Suburbs grew to exurbs and transportation, primarily roads, struggled to keep up with demand for more expressways and freeways. Downtowns died or downsized. The station wagon became the SUV. Small cars were for those in cities, where there was little room to park. I am no fan of 'express lanes'; it the state needs them, bond it out over time and use revenue to pay them off. Or build full toll roads where everyone pays. Express lanes build a caste system on the roadways and a double white line isn't going to prevent frustration from playing out. Sprawl rules, y'all.
Very good analysis of the situation, I know because I live just North of Metro Atl. I enjoyed your video
17:11 ill admit it. I mostly want Atlanta to Significantly improve its mass transit so that I have to deal with less traffic 😅
Great video on an important topic. I’m not knocking the GA 400 project but I don’t believe it makes a material improvement in traffic congestion. Look at the areas far north of McFarland. They’re super-congested. The problem up there is only partly related to more and bigger roadways. A lot of it is this: everyone in Georgia wants to live on a cul de sac in a gated neighborhood. I live in one of those places in Roswell with 800 homes in the neighborhood. When one of the roads adjacent to the neighborhood gets congested, taking an alternate route requires a 3 mile detour, not just a quick one-block detour. Now place multiple gated (or non through-street) neighborhoods next to each other. The problem cannot be solved only with more lanes.
Gimme a heart mane checking in from Memphis
Obviously perception is key in anything and if given the chance to upkeep things as is, maybe do a bus system redesign to better focus where most users go between. If the commuter busses that go further north are still half decent and use the BRT lanes, it won’t feel like a waste. Besides, if routes that use it continue to North Point Mall-and malls can be still valid trip generators/transfer points (be it between routes, active transportation [walking, cycling], or to even ride share or carpool). Sometimes even optionality is not quantity of provided public transit options, even in the most obscure of situations. Basically the cycle is “system needs upkeep-we need money-can’t find it-infrastructure deteriorates-maybe service cuts happen”, and unfortunately that first step I think is more important than further reforms to how things get built-you can say “defacto yes, we will allow higher density and slash parking minimums”, but until you have a proper funding stream only mess with what needs to be remediated or torn down because a modern 4-plex over those two dilapidated buildings on that street corner and it won’t be taller than anything in your neighborhood (maybe 3-6ft, you can’t notice 3-6ft. It’s not going to be a skyscraper towering over the trees)
A few people got paid real good for this projects approval.
You hit the nail(s) on the head with both the voter turnout and the mentality of our society at large. Hell, I do vote in the off year elections, knowing that those are just as important, if not more, than the olympic year elections, and I couldn't tell you who my local councilman is. Yeah I know my mayor and a few of the ones that have every commercial break money, but to get a speed bump put in or fix a streetlight, I have to cop to ignorance; lazy ignorance. I'm in Germany right now with a strong eye on their transportation system, which Germans complain about constantly, partly to see what works for a city, region and country at large, but also to get a try to get a sense of the cultural mindset that says, I won't benefit from it, but its needed for the greater good.
15:20 this is why I don’t like public transport in the US.