Legends of Runeterra "flopped" because it was the most consumer friendly card game allowing you to collect cards easier than any other digital CCGs for free. Despite that, PvP died out while its stellar PvE roguelite mode became the main mode for players, which only exacerbated the revenue issue because PvE players didn't need to buy cards for PvP, while cosmetics couldn't make up the difference in Riot's earnings expectations. It then became an ouroboros cycle of the game losing Riot money, Riot slowly diverting dev and marketing efforts off the game, and the wider League audience becoming more clueless about its existence, failing to onboard new players. It was a solid game failed by Riot in both marketing and ironically, too generous monetization.
I think its especially interesting to look back at how its generosity killed it in the wake of the smashing success of PTCG pocket. People want the gradual dopamine of cracking packs and building a collection. Anecotally I enjoyed LoR but found little reason to grind ranked once I got a comfortable collection (which was very quick), and then I very soon quit after that after trying to hang on by just playing their draft format. The game was *fun* but at a certain point *just* felt like a time waster.
Keep in mind... League of Legends / Riot games has made an EXTREMELY popular board game that came with pre painted miniatures. The product quality blew out the big guys including hasbro. They are not scared to drop a billion on a single game.
Also modern horizon (and direct to modern) was probably the worst thing that could ever happen to modern. Playing "True Modern" that doesn't include those sets has been one of the most fun things I've played in a long time.
Maybe a different type of comment... Thank you Richard for taking care of family. I stopped counting the times I had to skip playing Magic, because it is family first. It will payback ;) One of my sons is grinding arena and we go together to events at or LGS, so hang in there
One of the best things about LoR was that all the art was stunning. Every card looked amazing and you could then go into each card and look at the whole picture, which the card normally only showed 1/3.
It’s not even just the reused artworks, the general presentation of these cards looks so god damn basic and cheap looking compared to any other paper TCG I’ve seen. It’s certainly a downgrade to Runeterra’s presentation (animations aside obviously).
Magic is so great at presenting information that it actively pains me when I have to see the old style borders. If there's anything other TCGs should learn from Magic it's frame design.
Crim, have you read the MTG manga “Destroy all humans, they can’t be regenerated” by Katsura Ise and Takuma Yokota? They are starting to translate them from Japanese and the first volume in English is out. It even comes with a promo card at the back.
18:36 *sigh* Crim, as a long time follower of Riot games, I can tell you they have mastered the art of telling the playerbase “we hear your concerns”. Whether they follow through is a different matter entirely. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they tell you their game designers have 200 years of combined experience so they know better then the players. Sometimes they put in a button to play their dying hearthstone clone on their other incredibly successful game’s launcher 4 years after release , only to shutdown pvp support for said dying hearthstone clone a month later, effectively killing it. Even though the playerbase was expressing concern about the financial health of said hearthstone clone for its 4 years lifespan. Riot did make sure let the playerbase know their concerns were heard from the very beginning and told them not to worry about it, the game was doing fine.
Thank you Crim for admitting that "The Magic the Gathering Anime" won't matter at all because apparently despite Arcane being the current "Best thing ever" you still don't care about League of Legends.
@@bbyowllit's an expansion of the IP, but it wasn't even meant to be canon at first. Then the first season surpassed all expectations and now riot is trying its best to get Arcane fans into league. It rarely works, but the fanbase is so big that it's worth it even if only 1% does.
22:23 this is not true. TCGs is bigger than ever in China. One Piece, PTCG, and many other stuff are raking in tons of money right now, which is probably why Riot is launching in China as a trial. The paper version of Genshin TCG also launched to great success just a few weeks ago. Sure, it pales in comparison to the mobile market, and it appeals a lot more to the collector side than the "player" side, but it is still a huge market. Not sure which city Richard visits when he's here, but there are many TCG stores in all major cities here like Beijing, Shanghai, Tianjin, Chengdu, Harbin, and more. Next time you are here you should definitely try looking for them :)
Don't know if this is a hot take, but the reason why most other card games flop is because they try to "solve" the mana problem that Magic has where it feels shitty when you draw too many or too few lands. However, the mana system is what makes magic as amazing as it is gameplay wise. Also Runeterra was easily the second best TCG in terms of playability out there behind Magic. I'm so sad it flopped as someone who played that game 1v1. I would always tell people that it was the most similar to Magic in terms of the balance between the stack, combat, card advantage, and resources, while having really interesting mechanics that were only possible in a digital TCG creating a really in depth and unique experience.
I agree. The only thing that could improve upon Magic's mana system is if the essential staple lands were more accessible/affordable. The color pie with its flavor and mechanical diversity, having to consider tradeoffs between consistency vs adding another color to access poweful cards from that color, the delicate balance of multi-pip cards that make some cards 'less castable' even with the same mana cost etc. Magic's mana system still is the best among all TCGs.
Yeah idk if that’s the reason why these other games flop, but I absolutely agree that at some point in the early development of every new TCG someone is asking “how do we do Magic’s resource system better?”. Magic being the progenitor of literally all TCGs, I think it’s a fair question to ask in 2024 and beyond. Magic is what it is because of the mana/land system, but that same system is also extremely dated from a design perspective and not something that would be appealing to a League of Legends player who most likely has no idea about TCGs outside of LoR and HS.
VS System was imo the only card game to really rival Magic the Gathering. It only flopped because Upper Deck had an embezzlement scandal that prompted DC to pull it's IP and the game had built around the DC set Marvel set repeat cycle.....so when DC pulled out it essentially killed any future for half the teams in the game. Anyway. Vs has a great solution to the mana issue. You draw 2 a turn any card can be placed face down as a resource, some cards can be used from the resource zone but any card can be used as a resource, every turn you get resources to spend equal to your resources. If you were an aggro deck you might stop playing resources at 4 or 5 and just draw 2 for the double play, lots of decision trees
I will be the league of legends card game defender and put out there that this art is most likely either test art or they will change it following the rhetoric surrounding it online. A lot of people don’t like the designs, and honestly neither do I, but riot does have a pretty good track record of looking at community feedback and doing something about it (ex. Valorant release) especially with art/design.
Someone else already mentioned that the game suffered from under-monetization, but for me personally it was almost too interactive of a game. The fact that both players take their turns at the same time and are constantly passing priority made the game feel super interactive, but also made me feel exhausted after a few games.
I think that the eternal format 60 card format is actually "kitchen table magic". It's casual "what decks do we want to play" sort of play with friends. If we want to make it a standardized or competitive play format, then we need to move to a points based system.
Feels like everyone wants a part of the pie with TCGs nowadays. I'm not a fan of League of Legends, but I played a bit of Runeterra and had some friends who were really into it, until the powercreep and balance went out the window (or so they told me). The market is oversaturated nowadays, between Magic, Pokemon, Yu-gi-Oh, Flesh and Blood, One Piece, Star Wars Unlimited, Altered, Lorcana, Gundam (that will hopefully be coming at some point)... and that's not counting stuff like Hearthstone and Arena, which aren't cheap either if you want to switch decks a fair amount. I think unless the gameplay is rock solid and the universe/artistic direction is really up your alley, most people will skip on a lot of these. Collectors will focus on what has the best art, and so far, that "Project K" doesn't like like it can really hold a candle to a lot of the heavy hitters. So unless they really step their game up, the gameplay is gonna need to do the heavy lifting, and that's not looking like it's really breaking new grounds either... And that commander platform sounds like a recipe for distaster. Another system to buy cards (that you don't own), with a limited pool, limited artworks, and God-knows-what paywalls and other anti-customers practices. No thank you.
Also your list is missing some of the other smaller tcgs iv seen around like Vanguard, and Weiss Schwarz which is the anime version of what magic is doing now.
Want to add in that Runeterra has not been shut down because Richard implies it a lot, they aren't focusing on PvP, but the game itself still gets updated basically every month with new content.
Hilarious how much I agree with Richard regarding "Once we ban... it'll be fixed!" Yet we've done this time and time again and everyone who purchased into Modern to play the strong(est) strategies just get BANNED out. Fury ban made Yawg the best deck in the format and made Living End the best grief deck Grief players grieving Rhino players being called the villians Nadu players losing money on Shukos Beanstalk players never being allowed to say the word Trigger again Yorion players being forced to play a faster deck Incoming Ring Players losing massive collection equity Modern is paradoxical. The average Modern Player wants to WIN and play against COMPETITIVE opponents, but if you play the winning deck, it gets banned in 3-6 months. Why bother playing this format? If one of the most competitive and famous formats is dead, why bother playing Magic? and Why settle for a lesser format when I can't afford more?
Here's the thing though, with a competitive format like modern you only lose out in value if you are following other people's decks. Also EVERY competitive TCG has the exact same rotation from either bans or power creep killing the best decks and you lose value. You will not find any TCG that doesn't have the exact same pattern. Even legacy and vintage have cards rotated out by power creep losing people value.
I personally think its more at the 10-15% on "oops we made a contract to not ban the one ring" specifically because it looks really bad to ban the 1 of 1 card in the eyes of the tolken estate. I definitely dont think its likely, but its definitely not impossible.
Commander is technically casual, but id argue it's more complicated than 1v1 with unique cards, 100 card decks, and a focus on individual deck building.
as somebody who has played league of legends for like 12+years... this game could NEVER rival MTG or even pokemon or yugioh etc etc. the fact that it's SPECIFICALLY runeterra and limited to their very small setting (when compared to other IPs) it just doesn't have the amount of characters etc to keep up without them dedicating a huge team to it which they will not.
At 27:40 they were talking about "what's the most popular". In terms of pure market value, Pokémon is the top dog and it isn't very close either: 98.9 Billion to Disney's 61 billion ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchises )
Mark rosewater spent 30+ minutes on his podcast one time actively defending Nash’s design in its current state and how important it is to them to design 50%+ of cards explicitly for commander. Nothing will change their minds on that front if that’s the direction the PR is pointed. Yes, they should stop designing for anything but standard since that’s when the game was the best, but Hasbro probably won’t let them do it since the commander paypigs have such a voracious appetite for the newest cardboard funko pop
I agree with Crim: design for Standard, keep Standard healthy, and things will generally be fine. I'm also a Magic boomer, so maybe this is just me missing the glory days of the 2000s/early 2010s.
Oh shoot I’m early, love you all. Crim you used to be the villain of the show but you’re now my saint and Richard is the lovable devil. Really enjoy the show a ton, love the whole crew
Ill add my voice as part of the group that loves modern, been playing the last 2 years and I loved mh3 in principle and the cards, if they had just used unscheduled bans to deal with nadu / energy at reasonable times I think modern would be plenty good now. Yes its not the og modern from back in the day but idk being a modern zoomer, its still easily and by far the format i enjoy the most and its not even close to anything else. (not being able to brew I think is just a lie but that's me)
I gotta agree with Richard on his universe beyond point. I was literally thinking last week about how i wish the bandai Gundam card game was just a universes beyond instead.
Have any of you guys used Cockatrice? It’s a free way to build and play commander decks and they have the new sets in their data base soon after they launch. It may be a nice solution to Richard’s problem.
49:04 crim definiely never had to take care of children or jung animals, touching the hot stove despite knowing ot hurts you is part of their routine 😅
I think it should be noted that Riot is running on Tencent money. If they really want to penetrate the market, they probably could. But if they deem it worthwhile to do so will most likely depend a lot on the initial impact of the game.
9:57 I quit Runeterra when the level up animations got lazy. The first set had the card on the board do an animation unique to itself when it leveled up. Following sets just cut to a .mp4 cutscene and the card was leveled up when the cutscene finished. Super immersion breaking. Gameplay is far from the only important aspect in making a game feel good to play.
not to be that guy but like that's as if someone said they quit Magic because on MTGA they stopped doing the Mythic Rare animations. it sounds more like a capricious complain, than an actual "deal breaker" for like 99.99% of gamers. If your definition of "immersion" includes flashy animations, should I bet you aint playing table top Magic? cause you know, the tabletop animations are getting lazy too.
@@TheSmartCinemamagic is different because the mechanics are so flavorful that you don't really need that. Also, they don't do bad animations. They just don't make them at all, which is actually better. Removing things entirely is less painful and easier to forget than a severe drop in quality.
22:33 Interestingly, Genshin has been developing a light digital TCG within itself that seems to be transitioning to physical copies now. Genius Invokation TCG. I'm not a fan of it myself, but I keep hearing about it and how there is a whole tournament side of it, so it must have found its audience somehow.
Seth. If you want to know their thoughts on Modern go listen to what Aaron Forsythe said during the announcement of UB in Standard at Magic Con Las Vegas. Really listen. You can tell there is a lot of regret there.
I know you guys aren't Legacy experts, but I want to point out the cards that people are calling for to be banned in that format. Psychic Frog and likely a second card from Reanimator (I'd ban Troll of Khazad'dum because it's Entomb+creature to Reanimate on the same card, but there are other candidates) The One Ring and Vexing Bauble, the main engine and protection for the artifact combo deck Either Glaring Fleshraker or Kozilek's Command to hit Eldrazi Nadu, having both spawned its own fast combo deck and slotted into the old Cephalid Breakfast deck I'm indifferent on whether Eldrazi needs a hit, but I'm rooting for the other five to all get banned.
Lets be real here. Do you think they just increased the numbers of sets legal in Standard for no reason but for the players? Most likely they did this because they can then print higher power level cards into standard, so they can see play in commander, pioneer, and modern. They kind of even stated this when they printed Pyroclasm. They stated with more sets in Standard you will need better answers. Implying they will power creep standard sets.
The thing about Magic the Gathering is that the people have already gathered. There's a whole ecosystem you can engage in to maintain interest and excitement for the game, and its easy to find people to play with. I loved Runeterra (more than i like magic tbh) but it just never built that base of Crims and Saffronolives and CGBs and a hundred other people.
I don’t think being a digital company is inherently an issue for TCG distribution. Cygames is a Japanese video game company that releases Shadowverse: Evolve with as far as I’m aware minimal issues. It may not have gotten as big as other games, but it’s still an example of a TCG from a non-tabletop game company doing decent.
When people say modern doesn't have the answers like legacy, while also admitting modern's answers are too good, the real thing they want that keeps legacy in check is the answers are stronger but narrower and have downsides. Force of will is the poster-child of this. It is a far stronger answer than anything modern has, but going down a card (and it has to be blue) is a very real cost. There are situations and matchups where going down a card for a counterspell is bad. The pitch elementals are a great example of them trying to replicate legacy's answers and falling on their face. The biggest problem with the evoke elementals is the scam, but even if they couldn't be scammed they still miss the point of legacy's answers. Hard-casting the elementals is too good. Evoking them 2-for-1s yourself, but hardcasting them 2-for-1s your opponent, so they are overall neutral card advantage and there are nearly no situations where they are bad. Another good comparison is leyline binding, static prison, prismatic ending, and solitude compared to swords to plowshares. Swords is absolutely the strongest card. But there are matchups and points in time in a game where you don't want swords. There are very few situations where you don't want the other cards, they are almost always good. But swords, despite being more narrow, is better at policing the format because it IS a stronger answer.
I think they effectively achieved their goal of making legacy/vintage irrelevant by making modern the defacto legacy format that they can print directly too and not roadblocks by the reserve list. Pioneer is new modern
I think they’ve missed the mark on what the biggest problem with modern is. I genuinely believe that the biggest problem with modern is that it’s not on Arena. If they created modern on arena, I think the format would start to come back.
Richard says that the upcoming League card game is going to be unique alongside MtG in having multiplayer. I don’t blame him for not knowing but this isn’t true. The upcoming Gundam card game from Bandai will also have multiplayer
I've always told myself that if I was going to play another game I have to sell my MTG collection for it. This game doesn't look good enough to sell out for.
The only thing I know is that this is WotC's _LAST CHANCE_ to hit *Shelly* with the Banhammer. If they miss AGAIN, we're *stuck* with her until Summer Rotation.
Didn't Seth recently say that there was an issue with Pioneer with the high powered Black decks and now Pioneer is fine? If Standard and Pioneer fixes the issue with the best decks being Blacks decks I would agree those formats would be great. Heck give me more Eldrazi in Pioneer and I will be happy there.
If you think about modern like a more powerful standard, a rotating format, it’s fine. But if you want it to be the thing it once was, you will be disappointed.
December 2023, Fury and Up the Beanstalk banned, Grief not banned. March 2024, Violent Outburst banned and grief not banned. August 2024, Grief finally banned and Nadu banned. We have been playing whack-a-mole for the last year and I don't see how anything changes. I fear that WotC could ban the one ring and 2-3 energy cards and the format will just be dominated by the next powerful deck for another 3 months.
I experienced Mechs VS Minions and I knew they can produce good physical games. But their Supply Chain tactics were questionable at that time (Only shipping from a few countries, with an absurd shipping cost in 2016), and they just stop supporting their games that supposed to be a platform for a lot of expansions. I surely will be skeptical to any physical games they would produce.
I think if I was a pro mtg player I would look to switch and support lol card game. Simply due to exposure, and prize money. World champs in mtg get like 10k and a card. World champions in lol get 1 million dollars and the biggest prize money is from world skins. So they know....also they have said they rather shut down the project than to release a bad game. They'll do a good job.
Riot fundamentally doesnt market their products to anyone other than existing consumers of the products they already have. I have such a hard time believing they have the committed bandwidth to pull off a paper tcg with competitive scene.
Its been said many a time before me but Project K (aka league card game) CANNOT have a good multiplayer and a 1v1 experience i think its just too hard to try and balance both plates
Wizards could restore modern by making it so every set released outside of standard, but legal in modern only lasts for 2 years. So MH 1 and 2 are out, MH 3 is out in 2026. and Lotr is out in 2025. But because pioneer exists and UniByond is coming to standard. There is no need, better to let Modern die.😢
LoR largely failed because of generosity rather than being a bad game. I stopped playing necause it was starting to get too hearthstone random for me, but it was a very well done game overall. It was effectively free to play, and not in the Magic Arena way. If yoy wanted to buy a t1 competitive deck it would cost me £35-£40 at most, presuming i had ZERO cards in that deck. When you're giving away 5 tier 1 decks for the price that Magic is giving away 1, youre going to run into some issues and their cosmetics game was pretty lacklustre. I'm prety optimistic about a physical card game because as Crim says, Riot kind of make whatever they touch better and have very few bad decisions under their belt
Richards take on no TCGs in china tells me he has never been. China has a thriving TCG and tabletop scene. What they dont support is gambling with TCGs, but theres events and great competitive play groups.
Good i cant wait to be called slurs in person playing League of Legends rather than over chat 😂. Also Modern horizon is killing modern tbh if they banned all 3 from modern id be happy (it won't happen this is cope)
Legends of Runeterra "flopped" because it was the most consumer friendly card game allowing you to collect cards easier than any other digital CCGs for free. Despite that, PvP died out while its stellar PvE roguelite mode became the main mode for players, which only exacerbated the revenue issue because PvE players didn't need to buy cards for PvP, while cosmetics couldn't make up the difference in Riot's earnings expectations. It then became an ouroboros cycle of the game losing Riot money, Riot slowly diverting dev and marketing efforts off the game, and the wider League audience becoming more clueless about its existence, failing to onboard new players. It was a solid game failed by Riot in both marketing and ironically, too generous monetization.
Hearthstone proves exactly that despite so many of its players insisting that it’s really “generous”.
I think its especially interesting to look back at how its generosity killed it in the wake of the smashing success of PTCG pocket. People want the gradual dopamine of cracking packs and building a collection. Anecotally I enjoyed LoR but found little reason to grind ranked once I got a comfortable collection (which was very quick), and then I very soon quit after that after trying to hang on by just playing their draft format. The game was *fun* but at a certain point *just* felt like a time waster.
I’m sure they’ve learned their lesson. Generosity is bad business for a ccg
@@ShadowMage223 TCGP is way too early in its lifecycle to know if it has legs. Give it another couple years and we’ll see
This is some grade A satire.
Keep in mind... League of Legends / Riot games has made an EXTREMELY popular board game that came with pre painted miniatures. The product quality blew out the big guys including hasbro. They are not scared to drop a billion on a single game.
Here’s hoping
Also modern horizon (and direct to modern) was probably the worst thing that could ever happen to modern. Playing "True Modern" that doesn't include those sets has been one of the most fun things I've played in a long time.
Maybe a different type of comment... Thank you Richard for taking care of family. I stopped counting the times I had to skip playing Magic, because it is family first. It will payback ;) One of my sons is grinding arena and we go together to events at or LGS, so hang in there
One of the best things about LoR was that all the art was stunning. Every card looked amazing and you could then go into each card and look at the whole picture, which the card normally only showed 1/3.
It’s not even just the reused artworks, the general presentation of these cards looks so god damn basic and cheap looking compared to any other paper TCG I’ve seen. It’s certainly a downgrade to Runeterra’s presentation (animations aside obviously).
Magic is so great at presenting information that it actively pains me when I have to see the old style borders.
If there's anything other TCGs should learn from Magic it's frame design.
Crim, have you read the MTG manga “Destroy all humans, they can’t be regenerated” by Katsura Ise and Takuma Yokota? They are starting to translate them from Japanese and the first volume in English is out. It even comes with a promo card at the back.
18:36 *sigh* Crim, as a long time follower of Riot games, I can tell you they have mastered the art of telling the playerbase “we hear your concerns”. Whether they follow through is a different matter entirely. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they tell you their game designers have 200 years of combined experience so they know better then the players. Sometimes they put in a button to play their dying hearthstone clone on their other incredibly successful game’s launcher 4 years after release , only to shutdown pvp support for said dying hearthstone clone a month later, effectively killing it. Even though the playerbase was expressing concern about the financial health of said hearthstone clone for its 4 years lifespan. Riot did make sure let the playerbase know their concerns were heard from the very beginning and told them not to worry about it, the game was doing fine.
Normally, I don't concur with Crim on his takes, but he was full of W takes on this episode.
Thank you Crim for admitting that "The Magic the Gathering Anime" won't matter at all because apparently despite Arcane being the current "Best thing ever" you still don't care about League of Legends.
Don't use anecdotal evidence. League saw an increase in new players and daily logins since arcane released.
Arcane isn't necessarily to get people into League of Legends, League of Legends helped them make a successful anime.
@@bbyowllit's an expansion of the IP, but it wasn't even meant to be canon at first. Then the first season surpassed all expectations and now riot is trying its best to get Arcane fans into league.
It rarely works, but the fanbase is so big that it's worth it even if only 1% does.
@@Wyrm7774how many of those logins were new players and what's the ratio of new players to Arcane watchers?
Statistics can be incredibly misleading.
22:23 this is not true. TCGs is bigger than ever in China. One Piece, PTCG, and many other stuff are raking in tons of money right now, which is probably why Riot is launching in China as a trial. The paper version of Genshin TCG also launched to great success just a few weeks ago. Sure, it pales in comparison to the mobile market, and it appeals a lot more to the collector side than the "player" side, but it is still a huge market. Not sure which city Richard visits when he's here, but there are many TCG stores in all major cities here like Beijing, Shanghai, Tianjin, Chengdu, Harbin, and more. Next time you are here you should definitely try looking for them :)
Don't know if this is a hot take, but the reason why most other card games flop is because they try to "solve" the mana problem that Magic has where it feels shitty when you draw too many or too few lands. However, the mana system is what makes magic as amazing as it is gameplay wise.
Also Runeterra was easily the second best TCG in terms of playability out there behind Magic. I'm so sad it flopped as someone who played that game 1v1. I would always tell people that it was the most similar to Magic in terms of the balance between the stack, combat, card advantage, and resources, while having really interesting mechanics that were only possible in a digital TCG creating a really in depth and unique experience.
I agree. The only thing that could improve upon Magic's mana system is if the essential staple lands were more accessible/affordable. The color pie with its flavor and mechanical diversity, having to consider tradeoffs between consistency vs adding another color to access poweful cards from that color, the delicate balance of multi-pip cards that make some cards 'less castable' even with the same mana cost etc. Magic's mana system still is the best among all TCGs.
Yeah idk if that’s the reason why these other games flop, but I absolutely agree that at some point in the early development of every new TCG someone is asking “how do we do Magic’s resource system better?”.
Magic being the progenitor of literally all TCGs, I think it’s a fair question to ask in 2024 and beyond. Magic is what it is because of the mana/land system, but that same system is also extremely dated from a design perspective and not something that would be appealing to a League of Legends player who most likely has no idea about TCGs outside of LoR and HS.
Magic is outdated and older than most of its current players. 😂
VS System was imo the only card game to really rival Magic the Gathering. It only flopped because Upper Deck had an embezzlement scandal that prompted DC to pull it's IP and the game had built around the DC set Marvel set repeat cycle.....so when DC pulled out it essentially killed any future for half the teams in the game.
Anyway. Vs has a great solution to the mana issue. You draw 2 a turn any card can be placed face down as a resource, some cards can be used from the resource zone but any card can be used as a resource, every turn you get resources to spend equal to your resources. If you were an aggro deck you might stop playing resources at 4 or 5 and just draw 2 for the double play, lots of decision trees
I will be the league of legends card game defender and put out there that this art is most likely either test art or they will change it following the rhetoric surrounding it online. A lot of people don’t like the designs, and honestly neither do I, but riot does have a pretty good track record of looking at community feedback and doing something about it (ex. Valorant release) especially with art/design.
Those cards would have been mediocre graphic design 20 years ago.
Sometimes I don't know if Crim is the embodiment of optimism or cope
He is the embodiment of the perfect consumer. Crim -"Oh I'd hate if they did x" WOTC "does x" Crim- " OMFG I LOVE THIS"
Someone else already mentioned that the game suffered from under-monetization, but for me personally it was almost too interactive of a game. The fact that both players take their turns at the same time and are constantly passing priority made the game feel super interactive, but also made me feel exhausted after a few games.
If youre not bothered about League of legends talk skip to 30:07. You're welcome
👍
I think that the eternal format 60 card format is actually "kitchen table magic". It's casual "what decks do we want to play" sort of play with friends. If we want to make it a standardized or competitive play format, then we need to move to a points based system.
aperantly 30$ vintage is a thing SCG con ran event with somewhat decent prizepot irc
I have never disagreed more with Crim than when he called Valorant a better game than Counter-Strike.
Feels like everyone wants a part of the pie with TCGs nowadays.
I'm not a fan of League of Legends, but I played a bit of Runeterra and had some friends who were really into it, until the powercreep and balance went out the window (or so they told me).
The market is oversaturated nowadays, between Magic, Pokemon, Yu-gi-Oh, Flesh and Blood, One Piece, Star Wars Unlimited, Altered, Lorcana, Gundam (that will hopefully be coming at some point)... and that's not counting stuff like Hearthstone and Arena, which aren't cheap either if you want to switch decks a fair amount.
I think unless the gameplay is rock solid and the universe/artistic direction is really up your alley, most people will skip on a lot of these. Collectors will focus on what has the best art, and so far, that "Project K" doesn't like like it can really hold a candle to a lot of the heavy hitters. So unless they really step their game up, the gameplay is gonna need to do the heavy lifting, and that's not looking like it's really breaking new grounds either...
And that commander platform sounds like a recipe for distaster. Another system to buy cards (that you don't own), with a limited pool, limited artworks, and God-knows-what paywalls and other anti-customers practices. No thank you.
Also your list is missing some of the other smaller tcgs iv seen around like Vanguard, and Weiss Schwarz which is the anime version of what magic is doing now.
I totally agree with Crim' concept of printing for standard being best, but Richard is right that commander players wont buy just for IP.
Want to add in that Runeterra has not been shut down because Richard implies it a lot, they aren't focusing on PvP, but the game itself still gets updated basically every month with new content.
Hilarious how much I agree with Richard regarding "Once we ban... it'll be fixed!" Yet we've done this time and time again and everyone who purchased into Modern to play the strong(est) strategies just get BANNED out.
Fury ban made Yawg the best deck in the format and made Living End the best grief deck
Grief players grieving
Rhino players being called the villians
Nadu players losing money on Shukos
Beanstalk players never being allowed to say the word Trigger again
Yorion players being forced to play a faster deck
Incoming Ring Players losing massive collection equity
Modern is paradoxical. The average Modern Player wants to WIN and play against COMPETITIVE opponents, but if you play the winning deck, it gets banned in 3-6 months.
Why bother playing this format? If one of the most competitive and famous formats is dead, why bother playing Magic? and Why settle for a lesser format when I can't afford more?
Here's the thing though, with a competitive format like modern you only lose out in value if you are following other people's decks. Also EVERY competitive TCG has the exact same rotation from either bans or power creep killing the best decks and you lose value. You will not find any TCG that doesn't have the exact same pattern. Even legacy and vintage have cards rotated out by power creep losing people value.
Pokemon is a lot more popular then Disney.
I personally think its more at the 10-15% on "oops we made a contract to not ban the one ring" specifically because it looks really bad to ban the 1 of 1 card in the eyes of the tolken estate. I definitely dont think its likely, but its definitely not impossible.
Commander is technically casual, but id argue it's more complicated than 1v1 with unique cards, 100 card decks, and a focus on individual deck building.
These complaints about Modern are why we created Revolt. Modern without Modern Horizons and Universes Beyond. Bring modern back to it iconic form.
as somebody who has played league of legends for like 12+years... this game could NEVER rival MTG or even pokemon or yugioh etc etc. the fact that it's SPECIFICALLY runeterra and limited to their very small setting (when compared to other IPs) it just doesn't have the amount of characters etc to keep up without them dedicating a huge team to it which they will not.
At 27:40 they were talking about "what's the most popular". In terms of pure market value, Pokémon is the top dog and it isn't very close either: 98.9 Billion to Disney's 61 billion ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchises )
I think pioneer is going to be ruined by the 6 standard sets a year that have to be half universes beyond and thus be chase cards.
Naw Pioneer will continue to massively tilted towards Black decks
Mark rosewater spent 30+ minutes on his podcast one time actively defending Nash’s design in its current state and how important it is to them to design 50%+ of cards explicitly for commander. Nothing will change their minds on that front if that’s the direction the PR is pointed. Yes, they should stop designing for anything but standard since that’s when the game was the best, but Hasbro probably won’t let them do it since the commander paypigs have such a voracious appetite for the newest cardboard funko pop
Nadu*, autocorrect got me lol
I agree with Crim: design for Standard, keep Standard healthy, and things will generally be fine.
I'm also a Magic boomer, so maybe this is just me missing the glory days of the 2000s/early 2010s.
Oh shoot I’m early, love you all. Crim you used to be the villain of the show but you’re now my saint and Richard is the lovable devil. Really enjoy the show a ton, love the whole crew
Ill add my voice as part of the group that loves modern, been playing the last 2 years and I loved mh3 in principle and the cards, if they had just used unscheduled bans to deal with nadu / energy at reasonable times I think modern would be plenty good now. Yes its not the og modern from back in the day but idk being a modern zoomer, its still easily and by far the format i enjoy the most and its not even close to anything else. (not being able to brew I think is just a lie but that's me)
I gotta agree with Richard on his universe beyond point. I was literally thinking last week about how i wish the bandai Gundam card game was just a universes beyond instead.
Have any of you guys used Cockatrice? It’s a free way to build and play commander decks and they have the new sets in their data base soon after they launch. It may be a nice solution to Richard’s problem.
Idk bro. Me and all my friends love strong cards. Keep printing power wizards!❤
49:04 crim definiely never had to take care of children or jung animals, touching the hot stove despite knowing ot hurts you is part of their routine 😅
I think it should be noted that Riot is running on Tencent money. If they really want to penetrate the market, they probably could.
But if they deem it worthwhile to do so will most likely depend a lot on the initial impact of the game.
9:57 I quit Runeterra when the level up animations got lazy.
The first set had the card on the board do an animation unique to itself when it leveled up.
Following sets just cut to a .mp4 cutscene and the card was leveled up when the cutscene finished.
Super immersion breaking.
Gameplay is far from the only important aspect in making a game feel good to play.
not to be that guy but like that's as if someone said they quit Magic because on MTGA they stopped doing the Mythic Rare animations.
it sounds more like a capricious complain, than an actual "deal breaker" for like 99.99% of gamers.
If your definition of "immersion" includes flashy animations, should I bet you aint playing table top Magic? cause you know, the tabletop animations are getting lazy too.
@@TheSmartCinemamagic is different because the mechanics are so flavorful that you don't really need that.
Also, they don't do bad animations. They just don't make them at all, which is actually better. Removing things entirely is less painful and easier to forget than a severe drop in quality.
22:33 Interestingly, Genshin has been developing a light digital TCG within itself that seems to be transitioning to physical copies now. Genius Invokation TCG. I'm not a fan of it myself, but I keep hearing about it and how there is a whole tournament side of it, so it must have found its audience somehow.
Seth. If you want to know their thoughts on Modern go listen to what Aaron Forsythe said during the announcement of UB in Standard at Magic Con Las Vegas. Really listen. You can tell there is a lot of regret there.
I know you guys aren't Legacy experts, but I want to point out the cards that people are calling for to be banned in that format.
Psychic Frog and likely a second card from Reanimator (I'd ban Troll of Khazad'dum because it's Entomb+creature to Reanimate on the same card, but there are other candidates)
The One Ring and Vexing Bauble, the main engine and protection for the artifact combo deck
Either Glaring Fleshraker or Kozilek's Command to hit Eldrazi
Nadu, having both spawned its own fast combo deck and slotted into the old Cephalid Breakfast deck
I'm indifferent on whether Eldrazi needs a hit, but I'm rooting for the other five to all get banned.
Lets be real here. Do you think they just increased the numbers of sets legal in Standard for no reason but for the players? Most likely they did this because they can then print higher power level cards into standard, so they can see play in commander, pioneer, and modern. They kind of even stated this when they printed Pyroclasm. They stated with more sets in Standard you will need better answers. Implying they will power creep standard sets.
The card game out there that can kill MtG is MtG
Crim talking all these games, I hope he doesn’t spend more than an hour per day on video games! Stay healthy guys 🤙
The thing about Magic the Gathering is that the people have already gathered. There's a whole ecosystem you can engage in to maintain interest and excitement for the game, and its easy to find people to play with. I loved Runeterra (more than i like magic tbh) but it just never built that base of Crims and Saffronolives and CGBs and a hundred other people.
I don’t think being a digital company is inherently an issue for TCG distribution. Cygames is a Japanese video game company that releases Shadowverse: Evolve with as far as I’m aware minimal issues. It may not have gotten as big as other games, but it’s still an example of a TCG from a non-tabletop game company doing decent.
When people say modern doesn't have the answers like legacy, while also admitting modern's answers are too good, the real thing they want that keeps legacy in check is the answers are stronger but narrower and have downsides.
Force of will is the poster-child of this. It is a far stronger answer than anything modern has, but going down a card (and it has to be blue) is a very real cost. There are situations and matchups where going down a card for a counterspell is bad. The pitch elementals are a great example of them trying to replicate legacy's answers and falling on their face. The biggest problem with the evoke elementals is the scam, but even if they couldn't be scammed they still miss the point of legacy's answers. Hard-casting the elementals is too good. Evoking them 2-for-1s yourself, but hardcasting them 2-for-1s your opponent, so they are overall neutral card advantage and there are nearly no situations where they are bad.
Another good comparison is leyline binding, static prison, prismatic ending, and solitude compared to swords to plowshares. Swords is absolutely the strongest card. But there are matchups and points in time in a game where you don't want swords. There are very few situations where you don't want the other cards, they are almost always good. But swords, despite being more narrow, is better at policing the format because it IS a stronger answer.
I think they effectively achieved their goal of making legacy/vintage irrelevant by making modern the defacto legacy format that they can print directly too and not roadblocks by the reserve list. Pioneer is new modern
Would love to see you guys bring on someone like MaRo or Gavin Verhey and include them in these conversations for an episode
As a Lor player and lover this was just a really sad announcement.
I'm in the same boat as Richard when it comes to modern. I just want to play boomer Jund or at least the upgraded version and have it be top tier.
Dota magic cards would make wotc lots of money
I think they’ve missed the mark on what the biggest problem with modern is. I genuinely believe that the biggest problem with modern is that it’s not on Arena. If they created modern on arena, I think the format would start to come back.
If only the card style was like on Legends of Runeterra. These new card look AWFUL imho, especially compared to how clean the LoR digital cards look.
Richard says that the upcoming League card game is going to be unique alongside MtG in having multiplayer. I don’t blame him for not knowing but this isn’t true. The upcoming Gundam card game from Bandai will also have multiplayer
I've always told myself that if I was going to play another game I have to sell my MTG collection for it. This game doesn't look good enough to sell out for.
Not surprised Kibler involved.
The only thing I know is that this is WotC's _LAST CHANCE_ to hit *Shelly* with the Banhammer. If they miss AGAIN, we're *stuck* with her until Summer Rotation.
Foundations shook the meta up. In my recent experience shelly hasnt been as huge of a problem as 6 months ago.
Thank you Crim! Pioneer!
Didn't Seth recently say that there was an issue with Pioneer with the high powered Black decks and now Pioneer is fine? If Standard and Pioneer fixes the issue with the best decks being Blacks decks I would agree those formats would be great. Heck give me more Eldrazi in Pioneer and I will be happy there.
Is there a milestone of episodes you guys are looking forward to?!
Banning The One Ring be like: It's not a simply walk to Mordor
If you think about modern like a more powerful standard, a rotating format, it’s fine. But if you want it to be the thing it once was, you will be disappointed.
The problem with almost every non-standard format is the specialty non-standard cards.
Commander client wish that will never happen, scan your paper cards into the client to just use your paper collection so you aren't buying another one
December 2023, Fury and Up the Beanstalk banned, Grief not banned. March 2024, Violent Outburst banned and grief not banned. August 2024, Grief finally banned and Nadu banned. We have been playing whack-a-mole for the last year and I don't see how anything changes. I fear that WotC could ban the one ring and 2-3 energy cards and the format will just be dominated by the next powerful deck for another 3 months.
Bring back restrictions! 🪃
The Bazaar looks cool. Been watching NL play.
I experienced Mechs VS Minions and I knew they can produce good physical games.
But their Supply Chain tactics were questionable at that time (Only shipping from a few countries, with an absurd shipping cost in 2016), and they just stop supporting their games that supposed to be a platform for a lot of expansions.
I surely will be skeptical to any physical games they would produce.
Lmao I can't wait for BtL to be added!!!! It's my favourite deck in paper!
Like Richard... once you have Kids and family comitments..its dificult for me to go play edh in person. Online commander Would be perfect for me
Damn the way they describe modern is how yugioh has been for the last decade
Waiting for an episode where Richard isn't a HATER on other peoples opinions/ides
Damn. I was betting the unrevealed UB for 2025 was League of Legends. Guess that's off the table
I think if I was a pro mtg player I would look to switch and support lol card game. Simply due to exposure, and prize money. World champs in mtg get like 10k and a card. World champions in lol get 1 million dollars and the biggest prize money is from world skins. So they know....also they have said they rather shut down the project than to release a bad game. They'll do a good job.
Riot fundamentally doesnt market their products to anyone other than existing consumers of the products they already have. I have such a hard time believing they have the committed bandwidth to pull off a paper tcg with competitive scene.
Its been said many a time before me but Project K (aka league card game)
CANNOT have a good multiplayer and a 1v1 experience i think its just too hard to try and balance both plates
Wizards could restore modern by making it so every set released outside of standard, but legal in modern only lasts for 2 years. So MH 1 and 2 are out, MH 3 is out in 2026. and Lotr is out in 2025.
But because pioneer exists and UniByond is coming to standard. There is no need, better to let Modern die.😢
LoR largely failed because of generosity rather than being a bad game. I stopped playing necause it was starting to get too hearthstone random for me, but it was a very well done game overall. It was effectively free to play, and not in the Magic Arena way. If yoy wanted to buy a t1 competitive deck it would cost me £35-£40 at most, presuming i had ZERO cards in that deck. When you're giving away 5 tier 1 decks for the price that Magic is giving away 1, youre going to run into some issues and their cosmetics game was pretty lacklustre.
I'm prety optimistic about a physical card game because as Crim says, Riot kind of make whatever they touch better and have very few bad decisions under their belt
Look at mechs vs minions as to riots prowess in this space
We're not getting a new MH this year, and there probably won't be one for years.
It's time for people to start taking Pauper seriously.
Richards take on no TCGs in china tells me he has never been. China has a thriving TCG and tabletop scene. What they dont support is gambling with TCGs, but theres events and great competitive play groups.
Good i cant wait to be called slurs in person playing League of Legends rather than over chat 😂. Also Modern horizon is killing modern tbh if they banned all 3 from modern id be happy (it won't happen this is cope)
22:28 Richard! How dare you! You have not heard of the 3 kingdoms card game????
The problem is supplemental products. Trickle cards through standard. Design cards for standard and not commander. Problem solved
For me to even co lnsider playing another game itd have to be dirt cheap. 1 dollar boosters cheap.
11:34 jinks say ready me and give me fist. That is weird
Y'all aren't the problem, you're just saying things ppl have already said when MH2 came out. You've just caught up
Still waiting for the first one piece podcast
Those cards look like an acid trip.
Why didn't they just call their new TCG "Riot" and then they could pull from every IP that Riot has as expansions and showcases?
Lorcana has commander variants
Special K is the street name for something else lol.
Pokemon is mtg's rival
LoR was too easy. Hit top 200 in NA after only playing for a month.
I want peach momoko's lightning bolt promo card!
Riot insistence with using first person for their card text is so bad lmao