This was a great stream, you can tell arnis still has a big passion for fighting games/the community even though he may act like he doesn't care sometimes
KT, hey alright dude, how many comments are you going to leave calling the hitbox objectively superior without realizing that's Aris' ENTIRE ARGUMENT? Keep up the "low IQ" comments bro they look real good on you.
One point that he faults heavily on is "embrace technology" section. Steroids are much more complicated than hitboxes. Steroids give measurable and lasting damage to you, especially in high doses. It legit shortens your life. A guy last month had a heart attack and had to be resuscitated at TWENTY SEVEN. The reason that steroids are banned isn't because it gives you an advantage, even though many think so. Otherwise, working out would be banned. And even genetics are uncontrollable, so should we not allow people 6'2 and above into the NBA? No. Its because of health. Pros sports players can't just take steroids will nilly. Hitboxes can easily be a more precise and skill oriented input that doesn't have so much baggage that stick/analog has. But instead, we are left at "its better than the legacy shit, ban it!". The obvious thing seperating hitboxers from cheaters would be macros. Everyone should just switch to hitbox, it just makes more sense.
@@johnsonjunior547 I honestly believe it's not really because of the legacy shit but because of the fact that games were never made with hitbox in mind. Even compared to controller, the precision, speed and capability that hitbox has is never accounted for when developing most fighting games. Which is why, in fighting games that are build with keyboard ( and by extension hitbox ) in mind, there's no argument about banning those devices at all (for ex Brawlhalla). I don't doubt most people use the device to get an advantage which when it's baked in the game design most don't mind, but when all the advantages that you get using hitbox are mostly exploits of the engine, it's not hard to see negative sentiment around leverless sticks in traditional fighting games.
@@Lexeroid590 Do you know why the stick is on the left? Because arcade owners figured out that most people were right-handed. Many really old arcades games had the buttons on both sides of the stick, but they removed the left hand button to make the games harder. So really its an anachronostic device.
The difficulty this was so amusing. Snakeeyes does walking 720 so fast you don't even see gief do anything. Give him like 20mins he'll do it on hitbox if he has to
Exactly. That’s why the argument of “it’s harder to do a 720 on hitbox” is so freaking dumb. Give any pro player half an hour and they will do it perfectly every single time.
@@nightslash2561 Skills transfer via game fundamentals. Why would being a pro have an impact on the transferability of peripheral skill? That's like saying because someone is a professional sax player they can automatically perform the same piece on an organ
@@stryx_flame3973 these people are hella exaggerating, it would take quite a while for anyone to even get 360 down on a hitbox let alone a 720. but they could still do it
@@Angel7black if we're talking Zangief, 720 is much easier on hitbox if you actually understood how the game reads inputs. It sounds like you have no idea how to take advantage of your $200 toy.
Some takeaways that I got from this after I watched it that were pretty valuable Distinction between exploits and cheating - KBD, Infinites, Doing drugs, Being Tall, Hitbox-style dpads, are exploits and can be good and/or bad Enforcement - SOCD is cheating, SOCD cleaning isn't, so how do we check? Easy/Hard is irrelevant - We're talking about possible vs impossible Accessibility is a different topic - this is about determining if something is a cheat or an exploit I thought this was a good video that filtered signal from noise, and I think this has helped clear up my thoughts on the subject
The enforcement part is the part I agree with fully since there are stickless controllers that don't have SOCD clean up. I would say that part of this stems from the fgc wanting to use thier old tools. I feel personally that hitbox will stay as my preferred type of controller especially with things like CrossUp allowing stick players to get the same advantages as hitbox with alot more flexibility is just an evolution to the classic arcade controller. Again tho controlling the controllers is the part we as the community should put moire resources into.
Keeping in mind that the Hitbox comes out of the box with neutral input SOCD resolution, e.g. SOCD = neutral. So the whole argument basically comes down to people modding their Hitbox, or other lever-less, to do something it's not supposed to....just like people can do with their arcade sticks.
@@La_Revolution Dude, the cross-up is arguably the "worst" of them all. It's basically a super optimized version of a controller, which already inherently breaks the game. Learning to time the press of two buttons simultaneously is like the first and easiest thing you learn to do in fighting games, now that ability let's you master some of the hardest moves with a Cross-up. If the evolution of a controller deters from the game it's just as bad as letting people macro moves.
I love that Aris is known across the globe in the FGC and he still streams with a fucking green tinted stream that looks like it’s in a library basement 😂😂😂
This is an old debate rearing it's head again. All modern fighting games should have neutral socd cleaning but there's nothing to fix travel time advantage.
@@Eval999 Your device can be setup to have the behaviour you want when you press both buttons. E.g. Send only the last button pressed so you can do instant f to b inputs. So it doesn't matter if the game has neutral socd cleaning if the device cleans the input in a different way.
14:20 to 14:35 gets me going. Every time. Considering that this was a tangent, albeit a good one; there is a gem of a pep talk in here. Appreciate you, Chief.
This like integrity in the FGC or lack there of. Who's cares if the latest Capcom fighter is crap when you can get a lot of money from sponsors via shilling?
@KT Then if organizer develop a software that shows on a separate screen your inputs live on tournament, and if they detect you modded your hitbox and are doing macros and pressing directional keys at the same time, and they ban you on the spot, would you be up for it?, that would be a great solution, is not about how good a controller is, the problem is hitbox gives you and unfair advantage on top of being able to hide your cheats better, which they do.
I think instead of tournament organizer policing this, the game itself should be programmed to not allow these impossible input to be registered in the gameplay
One point that he faults heavily on is "embrace technology" section. Steroids are much more complicated than hitboxes. Steroids give measurable and lasting damage to you, especially in high doses. It legit shortens your life. A guy last month had a heart attack and had to be resuscitated at TWENTY SEVEN. The reason that steroids are banned isn't because it gives you an advantage, even though many think so. Otherwise, working out would be banned. And even genetics are uncontrollable, so should we not allow people 6'2 and above into the NBA? No. Its because of health. Pros sports players can't just take steroids will nilly. Hitboxes can easily be a more precise and skill oriented input that doesn't have so much baggage that stick/analog has. But instead, we are left at "its better than the legacy shit, ban it!". The obvious thing seperating hitboxers from cheaters would be macros. Everyone should just switch to hitbox, it just makes more sense.
@@epicon6 guess limiting speed would be a terrible decision seeing how the PC market is the largest gaming population and growing. Would feel like shit to play on a keyboard.
EDIT: Before I begin, I main a lever arcade stick. I dont want to come out like im defending Hitboxes. I just understand how this control type works, so this reply is very objective based. The whole thing that Aris complains on hitbox about directly transfers to pad... so are we gonna ban pads too? Lets just ban everything except the traditional lever sticks. 1. 1:50 onwards - Like I said, this controller type is already out there. Pads. There's basically very little travel time from moving forwards to backwards vs a lever type stick. The same applies to the analogy concerning charge characters in SF. If you think I'm BS'ing, check out Brian_F clips titled "PSA regarding PS4 pad and multiple directional inputs at once". Im showing you factual evidence here, instead of bringing up strawman arguments that have no factual basis. 2. 4:26 Now we're talking about speed? He said it himself that Pads already have access to this, what's the problem with a hitbox and singling it out? So what's the difference? 3. 7:27 Now we're talking about Hitboxes that are not tournament legal. These ones are in the absolute minorities, and most people use a regular type of hitbox, because these ones are definitely cheating. People for sure can make these types of controllers, but I thought the topic was about a regular hitbox controllers? You just derailed the whole argument and strawmanned here. 4. 10:00 - 13:30 Now the argument have completely went to talking about real cheat controllers now. I thought we are addressing official Hitbox controllers that have no tampered SOCD cleaning? The analogy makes sense with the real cheat controller for sure, but you still haven't addressed the Official Hitbox controllers. Those ones like I said, are tournament legal because their SOCD cleaning is not tampered and follows the tournament standards. 5. 13:35 - Again, how is this not same for pads man? You keep putting these analogies but it's already done in pad... How come the HB's are getting sh*t, I dont understand it. 6. 18:29 - Pressing DB and forward can be done, that's why the analog is there, and people actually do this already. Again, refer to the vid "PSA regarding PS4 pad and multiple directional inputs at once" on YT. So what's the issue to having another controller input (HBoxes's) that just emulates pad? Doesn't make sense to me, specially the "Alienating" part. 23:21 Also yes on that last part that guy was using a macro, however if it's customizable *VIA IN-GAME* , that's not the controller's fault but the game's programming. In any other game, that sh*t would not fly, and would've gotten that person banned if he has modded his controller with a macro. Conclusion: So what I got from this is Aris has an issue with the non-official All-button controllers. Those ones that are customized, have tampered SOCD cleaning, and not tournament legal. However, he seems to have 2 opposing opinions. At his conclusion he said that those ones that Daigo uses (it's the official Hitbox mind you) is cheating... which factually is not. Like I already explained, it doesn't have tampered SOCD cleaning and it just follows the same concept that the regular pad has. I just dont think he understands what SOCD is tbh.
Real gamers use the steering wheel controller, fair and balanced. But in seriousness, hitboxes are here to stay as well as any other devices in the future. The optimal solution is event organizers provide the cabs, but that's not ideal. Remember when players used the select button to plink jab? People will find ways for all kinds of shortcuts, it is what it is.
Sometimes the weird controllers are fun. I've been able to get 6 characters to elite smash using a single broken switch joycon with harsh joystick drift and i have to say, it's my only claim to ever being good at a game ever. I've beaten many, but with difficulty for quite a bit.
If you payed attention to Daigo at all you'll know the the future of Hitbox is not great. Not only was he the one straight up saying it's the better controller he was even asking the Devs themselves "Is this cheating?" That's when we first started seeing Hitboxes being checked for SOCD cleaning. The pro player Daigo who's using Hitbox all the time is the same guy who started the discussion if it's broken. I hope that put a lot of things into perspective.
@@resolutelament Thank you! It was difficult but with the amount of hours i had to play like that against lvl 9 CPUs in 2v 1s in order to finally stand a chance. I'm sure anyone with more fighting game experience than me would've had it in 2 weeks of training and not 6 months lol.
Left/right on bumpers. Up/down on triggers. Thumbs can rest over two directions, and two face buttons at once. That's got us 4 buttons. 4 more are free for lesser actions. Boom. Kof hitbox players have no advantage over pad players. World peace.
@KT that wasn't the point of my observation at all, but thanks for being a bigot. I'm a big fan of bigotry, and I'd like to see more of it in the wild.
14:32 - 14:56 this can be applied to many games. The whole argument of "oh it's hard to do" is irrelevant, if the thing is "simply superior". In competitive games you need to exclude how hard something is, and focus on what is simply superior. Examples include Kabal in Mortal Kombat 3 doing instant air gasballs and there being no counterplay // or champions in League of Legends like Irelia, Yasuo, Zoe, Camille, Yone, Zeri, Viego. It doesn't matter if it takes you 12 months to master a character, if it's superior when mastered, it's superior overall.
@@Chaoblahippo There is of course nuance involved, you wouldn't nerf something if there is a 0.000001% chance of anyone doing it. However, if ENOUGH people can do it then this may be enough to nerf it. For example in high rating lobbies, maybe it's a high percentage OF the high rating lobbies that can execute the said OP. i.e. Say 1% of overall player-base can execute the OP thing, that might actually be 50% of high rating lobbies - in that case, the reality is it's busted in high elo.
I've played hitbox, I was able to do consistent electrics farrrrrr faster than I ever was able to learn them on pad or stick. Hitbox is not hard in any way shape or form. BUT it is unintuitive (which is why you see mixboxes now) and can be awkward. None of those make it "hard", its literally just a learning curve. The same way a controller console gamer moving to MNK will be garbage until they can get used to it.
He is far from a master in speech, he just buries whoever he reponds to in stoner insults and the chat hiveminds behind him. I love aris, but he has some shit takes quite often
@@Kenlac92 but he does debate the subject well after he gets around the petty stuff. I think that's evident, even if he doesn't win in all metrics of the debate.
He touched on this, but the hitbox style controller is as exploitable as the game devs make it. I'm sure game devs will keep in mind hitbox capabilities with future fighting games.
They could significantly ramp up the execution of fighting games, it's not easy to use hitbox on older games or things like KOF with all the directions and stuff. That will literally never happen though as now pad players can't play and it goes against the trend of making fighters easier.
@@saado99 Arbitrary execution barriers are lame. These "cheats" simply expose the shallowness of using complicated inputs in an attempt to balance things.
@@YourMasta You don't know what arbitrary means. Even if your comment made sense that wouldn't make me wrong. For example there's no difference in game relevant utility when comparing ➡⬇↘ to ➡⬆↗ or ➡*↘. That's arbitrary. Differences only arise due to different input designs and whether any button pressed has a mapped function, such as jumping. Pressing ⬆ vs X to jump is also arbitrary, any meaningful difference is only due to the conventional placement of the d-pad and face buttons on controllers. There's no room to cheat complicated inputs if those inputs aren't complicated.
I was about to say: you can actually emulate the features of a hitbox on a pad with the analog sticks. There are easy KBD tutorials online using SOCD tricks
You have to switch right and left analog for this. And switching analogs is banned in tourneys, but somehow hitbox isn't banned. They simply allow cheating in tournaments.
Modern games don't allow you to press both directions anyway. So if he's arguing it's just about the speed difference due to the ergonomics then I don't see what the problem is.
also i'm pretty sure daigo got caught using a non-SOCD cleaning hitbox and they banned the controller, so it is getting policed, though that's one of the only times it's been reported so it's possible that daigo was just made an example of and there are still people out there with no SOCD cleaning
that one didn't matter anyway tho because all modern fighting games have SOCD built in to the game. he got this banned because he had duplicate buttons outside of what a controller has. you can only have double directions but one has to be the dpad and one has to be the left stick so it is still the same inputs as pad.
it had last-button priority SOCD (B+F=F , F+B=B) afaik this is allowed in most every tournament, but it does make charge moves kinda cheap. the controller was banned for duplicate buttons
I don't think Daigo was "caught" with anything. I think he was using a button box with extra buttons on purpose very publicly to push the limits of the rules since there weren't any rules on that at the time. I remember him making a statement that he wanted them to make rules about it or at least make their position clear.
Aris is totally right, but there is also no reason that you can't mod a regular stick to the do the same thing. Take a Qanba Obsidian and alter the end row buttons to be left/right, like a sneaky Cross|Up. So the only way to not cheat is to only use a sanctioned and sealed controller - whatever type it is. This would also alienate the stick modding community which seems like a real bad idea also.
@@Vanity0666 I agree. How this is not the standard is beyond me. Every other competitive sport has the same equipment for each athlete. You can't bring your own ball, bat, hockey stick, puck, etc.
As a hitbox user I agree with a lot of the points here. The only thing I disagree with is the idea that 'if you're are going to use a hitbox why shouldn't one cheat all the way (not using SOCD cleaning)'. The premise here is that not having SOCD cleaning is 100% better than having it. For some games SOCD cleaning enables you to hit the directional buttons in a way to get certain inputs in the game that not using the cleaner locks you out of. In his hypothetical 'hitbox with a limiter vs the chaiwan hitbox' there are some cases where it makes sense to pick the limited box because it actually has options that its alternative does not.
Should I listen to some scrub from the comment section or literally cheat on my chaiwanese hitbox, I wonder what the majority of people would choose. You are the exhibit B.
@@nidarach2702 The 'less cheating box' is one that socd cleans F+B into neutral The 'more cheating box' described at 7:50 doesn't do this cleaning to make F+B into neutral. Which means F+B is either F or B - commonly it would be whatever you input last if you wanted to 'cheat even harder' but in this case it doesn't really matter which one it is. Try doing a kbd on a non socd neutral cleaning box without letting go of back and get back to me. The 'more cheating box' is in the same camp as the arcade stick when compared to the 'less cheating' box. 2 out of the 3 can't do it without letting go of back. It's not an easier/harder it's actually not possible.
@@nidarach2702 chill out streamer simp, he made a good point, you clearly don't play on leverless since you don't even know how SOCD cleaning helps with shortcuts.
@@kamekaze878 This, if you going to cheat, a traditional arcade stick is way better for this since nobody will suspect you of using any macro. You can even do a stealth 2 directional input on it with a fake R1 R2 macroing as left and right without SOCD
The best and least intrusive they can do, is probably have to do a quick button check before every set. Show that you have a single mapping for all these buttons, and no additional macros. Don't kick the guy out, but tell him to fix his shit. Other games also have these problems, but like Aris says, the FGC is so niche and fragile.
The issue is these tournaments are still ran like a guy with a clipboard, there is no money and describing them as professional is a reach. Evo is the only tournament actually worth mentioning and they can barely get their shit together. I mean evo didn’t even get offered to premier any of the big fighting game release trailers LOL Bandai & Capcom hold their own events now or release their big trailers at legitimate events. Only place this controller check could be possible is in Japan, where they actually make money on fighting games
EVO partnered with leverless suppliers this year like snackbox for EVO-branded devices. Its already taken roots in the scene with these partnerships so it's probably not going anywhere. Would be weird to make an EVO branded hitbox and then ban them the following year.
@KT imo they should just fix the game so u cant just exploit hitbox advantages and thats it, like theres no easy mode for souls-like games neither should it be for fighting games
@KT idc bout them tbh, if they are legal just go with them lol, arcade sticks are for people who are used to arcades since kid or because its funnier to use the lever, just use whatever you find funny
@KT it's a matter of skill and honestly time. Time equals skill. Sure you can figure something out faster than your competitor but the amount of time/practice will usually always prevail. Now, can you get to a level/rank faster by using better controllers essentially ? Yes, but will you have the other necessary fundamentals that were taught along the way for the people who took the actual time? No, you will have missed out. KBDs are perfect for this analogy IMO. It's not just gatekeeping it's time and skill earned. Hitbox is great and I welcome it but it does confuse the possibility vs the impossibility. Which then I just say well time for everyone to get a hitbox because the arcade stick is outdated obviously. Especially if we are talking the best of the best. Evolution of the sport. Devs will have to create special inputs knowing that hitboxes are the main controllers being used now.
dude the moment he said to ban pad he got me. Ive been saying pad is fucking cheap af for years as a pad player and that it doesnt make any sense to ban hitbox and not pad. Aris is nothing if not consistent with his ideas
Terrible comparison. Actually, the word to be used here is Asinine. The entire point went completely over your head. Turbo inputs was a new tech for controllers. Should we allow turbo buttons at tournaments too then? No! You can hit multiple directions at the same time which gives you an advantage. That is an objective fact, not an opinion. Arcade sticks only or pads with 6 buttons and 1 stick/d-pad.
My pc comes with a keyboard so you cant ban the simplified version of it. Also both versions of "pressing both buttons at the same time" have advantages and disadvantages on different games and different characters so to call one as "having limiters" is inaccurate.
Interestingly aris is making a completely different point to the vast majority of people complaining about hitbox, who just think it's cheap. I think it'd be worth having TOs inspect all controllers internally immediately before top 8. That way you could at least be fairly confident no one with a controller that allows for typically impossible inputs would make a significant placing or get any money. Though I can see the day coming where someone's controller stops working and they blame the TO for it..
@@shiwanmi I can totally see that happening in MVC3. And I think Sako had a modded stick that allowed him to have extra button presses to do his one frame links or something like that.
@@YoungPhenix ahh interesting. I didn't know about that. Sako's already dangerous enough as it is. All those buttons for one extra frame. Talk about precision.
Feels like this take is kinda goofy. If fighting game peripherals were restricted to ONLY sticks built and monitored by tournament organizers it would make sense. But people can use pads that have 2 methods of directional input and even keyboards that can input both directions at once. Realistically, I could even set a button on my stick to be forward or backward and that's just as unpoliceable and would be just as cheating as a Hitbox.
I would be able to hear out this argument if the games were actually made with the intention of being played this way. Before long this kind of stuff is just going to be patched out of modern fighting games. Or you have games like SF which will just lean into it, and make everything input-related completely brainless to execute.
@@iorilamia I mean, I did. I just don't get what the ideal end result is for people who have this kind of opinion. You might just be old and fat, you know?
yeah but you limit your movement with your pad when you try to do that. with a hitbox you litearly can have all your fingers just sitting there. that shit is wack stop defending it
The socd makes it so if you hold opposite directions it just gives you neutral for left right or jump for up and down, the only argument is about how theoretically fast you can do things, sf letting those inputs count is weird and insane is the main deal
@@fr0mage if you play on a normal pad, you can hit left and right using the pad and analog stick as well, which is a trick some zangief players used to get very quick 720s while still moving.
@@fr0mage Daigo actually got disqualified from a tournament a few years ago since his old hitbox didn't have socd clean up. So there is policing but I agree there needs to be more even as a hitbox user myself.
certain PCB boards let you do different things. Like you can make it cancel left+right into neutral, sure. You can also make it so that if 2 directions are pressed at the same time, it resolves the LAST input you pressed. Then if you're holding back, and while holding back press forward, and you are inputting b+f at the same time, you get forward. This is what he means by no travel time and avoiding "neutral" at the same time
if hitbox increases the skill ceiling then why should we purposely limit ourselves to an outdated stick just because thats the way the games started out?
Fact of the matter is this. Aris ain't no top player. If hitbox is "cheating" then riddle me this, why the fuck aren't every top player using it? If it really gives you an advantage, then why the fuck do people still use stick? It ain't regulated... no one's going to deny them the prize money if they use a hitbox. But they still don't? Just a fact that if the top players really considered hitbox as an advantage, I'm sure 90% of them would have switched.
All of the SOCD shit that’s possible on hitbox is also possible on pad, and it always has been. It’s *easier* on hitbox, which according to Aris shouldn’t matter, but for the most part people STILL don’t use it because it doesn’t give a large enough advantage to justify jumping through hoops to do a special input.
To his credit his logic is consistent, the fact that a playstation pad can input left + right is in the video and even before it's discussed he says he also thinks pads should be banned. The only thing I disagree with is that he says SOCD L+R = neutral (the honest box) is worse than something like last input wins, (the cheating box described at 7:50). A box that can korean backdash without letting go of back (because of the socd cleaning L+R into neutral) can't throw a sonic boom without letting go of back and vice versa. There are tradeoffs but he presents it as if SOCD L+R is always worse and 'if you're going to cheat why not cheat all the way'.
Pad, the default device for console, has access to socd. Keyboard, the default device for PC, has access to socd. Arcade stick, a 3rd party custom device, does not have access to socd. If you made the choice to buy it, that doesn't make everyone else a cheater for not using it.
@@mildsome9713 I agree, Keyboard is the default device for PC. You have to make a choice to use a different controller on a PC. Although Aris doesn't really get into why he thinks pads should be banned I think he's talking more from an arcade purist perspective. Such as saying fighting games, but especially older fighting games, were designed and balanced around the arcade stick as the input method.
Here's the thing I want to know. why are we placing the onus on tournament organizers and even the scuzzy hitbox competitors to police this nonsense. The games' devs should design their game so that you can't press multiple directions at once. (in future games of course) that way you use any stupid controller you want and outside of macros or even hacking you wouldn't be able to cheat like you can now. I would liken it to bunny hopping. In most first person shooters you can't hop because the way the inputs are designed.
Well the game registers the controller's inputs, not the human's. Bunny hopping, I'm guessing you talk about CS still has the same problem as fighting game, but you just bind it to the scrolling wheel instead of buying a separate type of keyboard or whatever. And most fps's just doesn't have this mechanic available, either by locking acceleration, messing with friction, jump cooldowns, animation locks etc. But those games do not achieve this by blocking player inputs in that sense. This is closer to being able to have buttons to do instant turns, like some games do. And let's say CS gets this, everyone would start to play with stupid low sensitivity if they cared about not being at an insane disadvantage because they could just use a bunch of hotkeys to do 90 and 180 degrees turns. I have a friend that used a glitch, that I think still exists in CS, if you turn off raw mouse input, if you look at the score screen and press secondary fire to bring up your mouse cursor you can just flick with your desktop sensitivity to turn instantly to where your cursor is placed when you release tab(the button for score screen). A neat little trick if you use very low sensitivity in-game. Got him banned from a few sites because it looked like he used an aimbot.
@@ickerolig Actually, I was talking about older fps in general, and you're right it's impossible in most modern fps due to acceleration ect rather than input so it was a bad example. What I meant was something like an artificial gate that prevents non-cardinal inputs (fb,ud, fdb ect) while still allowing "natural" 8 directional input (f,b,qcf ect)
Exactly. The ideal situation is controllers with no SOCD cleaning and *the game* deciding what is or isn't allowed. If the game lets you block both sides by pressing both directions, that shouldn't be a knock against the input device. If capcom doesn't like last-win SOCD, then CP should patch their game so that 4+6=5, it's not more work than adding a character or any other change to the game balance
The first tournament I ever traveled to, I remember seeing someone playing Street Fighter on a keyboard. Didn’t know that was possible on a console until that tournament.
So happy someone's saying it! Hitting two directional inputs at the same time is just cheap. Bar none. I'm gonna learn to use one as long as it remains tournament legal. I can always go back to stick if it ever does get banned.
The very first thing he’s saying is completely true, I can’t use an arcade stick at all, it feels like I have a clear understanding of what to do but my wrist won’t allow it versus when I play with a controller
Still is abusable. For example Korean backdash on hitbox abuses this. Hold back the whole time and alternate pressing forward and down. The back + forward input cancelling to neutral makes a very complex motion become extremely simple. Just hold back and alternate down and forward. That easy.
@strad might not be true but ok good @PichuLord stop thinking like a scrub and you'll get it @KT that happens in your controller not in the game. And even if it did Devs are smart, they'd figure it out. As long as bring your own controller is a thing, people will still do cheap shit to make things "easier" because my stick is better than YOURS. The point is tuning your gear for an advantage isn't cheating if you're doing the same thing but better. Doing things impossible for others is what's cheating. TO's can't control it but TO's don't make the rules, the Devs do. They could patch out the steroids if they wanted to.
If this is all about SOCD being cheating/not possible on other controllers, the game itself is what determines how those inputs are interpreted. Modern games can just account for the possibility and make it function in a non-broken way (inputting left and right at the same time makes you block neither direction, lose charge, etc).
exactly! Let's the devs determine how SOCD is handled and ban all SOCD cleaners. My controller shouldn't be altering my inputs anyways. Let the software/devs determine SOCD behaviors. Kill the cleaners. That is the only thing that will kill this debate. It's also the correct answer. I say ban the cleaners because the game never sees the SOCDs being pressed. It sees what the cleaners turn SOCD into. Some have last input priority, some default to neutral etc. I'm sure you know this, but others that pop in to this thread might not.
Not that simple, a game can have it's own way of interpreting SOCD, sure, but the Hitbox or whatever type of controller you have can handle the SOCD in a hardware level before it sends the inputs to the game. For example in SFV the game interprets back and forward at the same time as neutral, but if your Hitbox is setup to handle back and forward at the same time as down, it will send the down input to the game, effectively overriding the game's way of doing things
@@LekaFGC exactly. In my opinion it's the cleaners that are the issue. They were needed before because the games didn't have any way of handling it. But most games do now. So let's kill the cleaners and move on. Or have a tournament lockout switch or something that turns them of.
@@LekaFGC if f+b=down then the controller isn't doing anything a normal stick couldn't also do as far as possible inputs. all the game needs to make sure of is that opposite directions can't be active at the same time, and that any movement from one direction to its opposite is separated by a neutral input. Those are the only things hitboxes can do that sticks and pads can't
@@ConnieFWill sending a down from a b+f input is not the same as sending a down from a down input but a better (more technical, more egregious) example would be setting the SOCD from the Hitbox to be Last Input Win, which is such that the hitbox will send to the game whoever opposite direction was hit last, like holding back then hitting forward will send forward. The game will never have a chance to solve the SOCD with neutral since you technically sent forward to it, but it is just a roundabout way of performing the b+f action and getting a different (and in this case naturally impossible) result, which is back, then forward while having no neutral input between
Keyboards are the reason Hitboxes were created. The first ones even had the wasd keys design just like a keyboard. It was meant for a generation of PC players that never went to the arcades and failed to adapt playing with a stick. It only became a problem when og players realized they could take advantages playing with them
“it was like an ancient gathering place where people would go and you wouldn’t take anything with you ... you would use THEIR hardware ... and then arcades died ... “ ah, it looks like it’s beginning to rain
What's crazy to me is that the hitbox is like... over a decade old? Like this isn't even new technology. I have one for my PS3. It's so clearly an advantage (imo) even unmodded and played fairly, and afaik it's still a pretty niche device. Fighting game players are really traditionalists, and that's what has kept it as a minority device. I mean if you want to cheat, you can cheat (not in the same way) on a modded arcade stick too.
cant you change keybinds on a regular controller, and a as well as change the d pad out for a more singular button thing. so you can hit backward and forward at the same time?
Aris is totally right except for the part about pads in the beginning. There are a few pad players in street fighter who play claw, and use the analog to buffer inputs for stuff like frame perfect hadoukens. Still not as OP as what a crossup can do lmao but this is how people will justify it. I don't really care about FGC but I was really interested in evo 2022 to see if crossups would pop up/what the reaction would be.
@KT What a bitch answer. Competition needs regulation and needs to have everyone in an equal playing ground. Yours is the argument that cheaters use in online games "well there are other cheaters not getting banned so I'm in a disadvantage unless I cheat too, so it's justified".
@KT Fighting games were first created and designed to be played on arcade cabinets so I wouldn't call it a stretch to say a game like Street Fighter was designed to be played on stick.
I like playing stick more but Aris definitely hasn’t used the hitbox, at least not long enough to realize using hitbox has minimal advantages. I play hitbox on occasion and I’m equally trash lmao
@@wavetime3651 I always sucked at sticks so transitioning from a pad to a hitbox made a huge difference for me. If it was really that big of an advantage, all pros would use them.
@@djbenjaminjay1984 I love my snackbox micro. I usually use that for SF which I don't play often. Mainly use sticks for Guilty Gear and Melty Blood. Feels more natural for some reason.
Again , you have no idea what you are talking about. Pads vs sticks don’t matter. Pressing 2 direction inputs at the same time is physically impossible with those controllers except for hitbox. Gormless newbies trying to talk shit
Because that is standard that literally built the FGC culture as a whole Hitbox and Keyboards dont make players better but it does water down skill level of execution making things like wave dash, electrics not nearly as impressive
1st: The game is released on PC. Standard peripherals for PC are keyboard and mouse. Using the same logic for allowing Playstation or Xbox console pads, one could argue for allowing keyboards in competitive Tekken. Hitbox is essentially the same as keyboard. 2nd: Pad CAN input left and right at the same time (one on the dpad, and the other on stick). 3rd: The game developers can police it by changing how the game treats SOCD (simultaneous opposing cardinal directions) inputs. Hitbox may simply become a necessary peripheral for competitive gaming - in the same way monitors, headsets, pad paddles and other accessories give those who own them an advantage in first-person-shooter games.
Controllers like the Hit Box obviously give a huge advantage but it's not an unfair one, it's just like using the Fosbury Flop for high jump instead of the previous technique. The canceling opposing directions are a software feature and not an hardware one, as it can be seen on any gamepad by turning on the analog stick and pressing one direction on the d-pad and the opposite one on the stick; the Hit Box just allows the player to take full advantage of it. The only way to nerf it in a way that's fair to every player and controller is to go to the Tekken and SF devs and tell them to remove the SOCD feature from their games, because the alternative of banning controllers like the Hit Box but not other unofficial ones like sticks would be even more unfair than allowing them.
Play to win, use whatever tool within the ruleset that allows you to win as much as possible. No excuses, and no stupid, useless debates. The debate of whether or not it's "cheating" doesn't matter AT ALL. All that matters is what the tournament you're playing in says is allowed or not. Hitbox 100%, factually is better than a stick, which is also not up to debate. So I'm using one unless they start being banned, then I'll switch back to my old stick.
I just purchased a Qanba Dragon a week ago. It’s my first arcade stick ever, because I feel like it’d be a great way to introduce to 2D fighters since I’m currently using Geese in Tekken 7. I just found out about the whole Stick vs. Hitbox vs. Mixbox argument. Glad I came here for the multiple discussions. I’ll probably purchase a Hitbox once they’re compatible with the PS5 (if they still exist haha).
yeah but in 3d games that'll fuck you up real quick its to inaccurate. KBD with analog as one of the inputs and you'll see quickly that its isn't very viable. maybe a game like MK it would work.
@@KaledTV lol so learning a whole new set of motions and manipulating two movement inputs simultaneously is cheating. Sounds like you're the scrub who complains about things he's too lazy to learn. Is pianoing on a fightstick cheating? What about Korean backdash? Turnip-brain take dude
@@starkpnw Yea, I misread that as "you could press both at the same time to produce neutral", so you're correct. That being said, using SOCD is still faster to come back whatever input you were first holding (e.g. doing korean backdash is significantly easier on hitbox bc back is being held, allowing smoother movement)
Also the it is harder argument is so stupid. How many times in speed runs did people end up doing things that were thought to be tas only? And now are routinely done in speedruns as a matter of need just to be able to get a wr?
Can't you do the same on a normal arcade stick? Let's say the game requires 4 buttons like tekken and your stick has 6 or 8 buttons, you can just set up one of the buttons for back and do the same thing. In the end everyone can be and is a bitch
Currently relearning Tekken on an official hitbox. Its fantastic. But thats also from having 30 years using a keyboard-like setup in life. It just makes sense.
I've been playing on a Keyboard for 12+ years and people still tell me to switch to Arcade sticks lmao, even though I'm always winning against them they dont understand just how much of an advantage I get. Keyboard is even more OP compared to Hitbox since you can press multiple buttons with a single finger.
The argument that fighting games are designed for arcade sticks is so dumb to me. No they're not. 99.9% of players play on console/PC. Maybe you could ban Hitboxes in your CvS2 or 3rd Strike tournaments, but anyone who still uses sticks to play modern fighting games is just an enthusiast and shouldn't be dictating any tournament rules. Devs aren't stupid, they know what devices the players use. If they deemed SOCD shenanigans to be unfair, they could patch it out of their games in an instant. This also makes Aris' comparison to the NBA silly, since there are no constant rule changes to major sports, whereas frequent patches to FGs is the norm.
Lmao cmon bro don't just make shit up. There are rule changes in the NBA at the start of every year. No, they aren't like patches in the way they come in every few months but there has been WAY more "patches" total to the NBAs rulebook than in any fighting game.
@@a1_hp When I said "constant" I meant like every few weeks. But doesn't your argument just further prove how wrong Aris is? If even the NBA changes rules so frequently, then why is it so outlandish to expect the devs to address a perceived problem through patching the game?
So what I'm hearing as the argument against Hitbox is that it can do things that the other controller options can't do. But can't stick do things that pad can't do, and vice versa? so is using a stick cheating? Or is that given a pass because that's what is standard in arcades? Which, if that's the logic, then we just need to make Hitboxes standard in arcades, and it won't be cheating anymore.
Every button should require 5,000 grams of actuation force to simulate the difficulty of using an arcade cabinet with chocolate sauce stuck inside
They just need to sauce up everyone's sticks at check in - chocolate calibration.
Aris is probably used to that on his own stick
Wife just took the kids and left after she found out I've been using a hitbox, thanks a lot Aris
she prefers the motions of the stick.
This was a great stream, you can tell arnis still has a big passion for fighting games/the community even though he may act like he doesn't care sometimes
too many stoners in the community
Oh I think he'd play fighting games everyday if not certain communities
He doesn't care about fighting games fans, big difference. And can you blame him
@@eibun2011 stoners ARE the community you FOOL
Aris is covered by at least 4 layers of twitch acting scripts it is impossible to figure him out
15:33 "we're stomping on god's face putting US flags in his ass" is such a crazy statement only Aris could make
Dude the way he said “They probably thought that shit was GOD!” had me howling for a good min
Sounds metal asf.
Came for the conversation on HitBoxes, stayed for the motivational speech about believing in myself.
Yeah right? 😅
When Aris puts the bong down he really does have some crazy good wisdom.
The bong is there to bear with the subhumans in chat. Without it, he may very well have already jumped out that window.
@KT so you didn’t get the point basically
@KT that's very nice billy
KT, hey alright dude, how many comments are you going to leave calling the hitbox objectively superior without realizing that's Aris' ENTIRE ARGUMENT? Keep up the "low IQ" comments bro they look real good on you.
The bong unleashes wisdom, didn't you notice how extra green his camera is
it's moments like these that make me regret getting banned for asking dumb questions
Hey alright.
See ya in the sewer
you would have probably made a dumb argument and gotten banned anyway :)
No worries. I got banned for saying “Man I wish Tekken 7 was good.” LOOL
@@griff1286 hey, you seem alright. you should make a ban appeal, if you didn't already have one that got denied
In HS, my biology/chemistry teacher always said before tests “cheating is allowed, just don’t get caught”.
My computer science teacher used to say, "cheating is allowed, just don't use hitboxes"
One point that he faults heavily on is "embrace technology" section. Steroids are much more complicated than hitboxes. Steroids give measurable and lasting damage to you, especially in high doses. It legit shortens your life. A guy last month had a heart attack and had to be resuscitated at TWENTY SEVEN.
The reason that steroids are banned isn't because it gives you an advantage, even though many think so. Otherwise, working out would be banned. And even genetics are uncontrollable, so should we not allow people 6'2 and above into the NBA? No. Its because of health. Pros sports players can't just take steroids will nilly. Hitboxes can easily be a more precise and skill oriented input that doesn't have so much baggage that stick/analog has. But instead, we are left at "its better than the legacy shit, ban it!". The obvious thing seperating hitboxers from cheaters would be macros. Everyone should just switch to hitbox, it just makes more sense.
@@johnsonjunior547 I honestly believe it's not really because of the legacy shit but because of the fact that games were never made with hitbox in mind. Even compared to controller, the precision, speed and capability that hitbox has is never accounted for when developing most fighting games.
Which is why, in fighting games that are build with keyboard ( and by extension hitbox ) in mind, there's no argument about banning those devices at all (for ex Brawlhalla). I don't doubt most people use the device to get an advantage which when it's baked in the game design most don't mind, but when all the advantages that you get using hitbox are mostly exploits of the engine, it's not hard to see negative sentiment around leverless sticks in traditional fighting games.
I wholeheartedly agree Aris - not because you are right, but because I don't have money for another controller. Ban that shit asap.
I've found the one honest stick player in the world, can I get an autograph?
@@sc065 yes of course, that will be **checks hitbox's website** 250 dollars
Legit just build one
@@asmallapple1509 yeye, I've seen mfs build em too.
I built one for about £25 plus a Brook universal I had lying around anyway. The Brook Universal is like £90 but there's cheaper boards you could use.
honestly we should ban sticks since they're so bad they're holding back all these top players from competing against hitbox users
gormless take
Based take
@@Lexeroid590 Do you know why the stick is on the left? Because arcade owners figured out that most people were right-handed. Many really old arcades games had the buttons on both sides of the stick, but they removed the left hand button to make the games harder. So really its an anachronostic device.
LOL. this is good
Ye
I like that aris is being so real about this, dude actually likes fighting games and it shows
"humans are capable of crazy things!"
"yeah i've seen efukt"
LOOOOOOOL
The difficulty this was so amusing. Snakeeyes does walking 720 so fast you don't even see gief do anything. Give him like 20mins he'll do it on hitbox if he has to
Exactly. That’s why the argument of “it’s harder to do a 720 on hitbox” is so freaking dumb. Give any pro player half an hour and they will do it perfectly every single time.
@@nightslash2561 Skills transfer via game fundamentals. Why would being a pro have an impact on the transferability of peripheral skill? That's like saying because someone is a professional sax player they can automatically perform the same piece on an organ
@@stryx_flame3973 these people are hella exaggerating, it would take quite a while for anyone to even get 360 down on a hitbox let alone a 720. but they could still do it
@@nightslash2561 bullshit, sounds like you never done 720’s on a hitbox before. 720’s are way easier on stick or pad, and especially on pad
@@Angel7black if we're talking Zangief, 720 is much easier on hitbox if you actually understood how the game reads inputs. It sounds like you have no idea how to take advantage of your $200 toy.
Some takeaways that I got from this after I watched it that were pretty valuable
Distinction between exploits and cheating - KBD, Infinites, Doing drugs, Being Tall, Hitbox-style dpads, are exploits and can be good and/or bad
Enforcement - SOCD is cheating, SOCD cleaning isn't, so how do we check?
Easy/Hard is irrelevant - We're talking about possible vs impossible
Accessibility is a different topic - this is about determining if something is a cheat or an exploit
I thought this was a good video that filtered signal from noise, and I think this has helped clear up my thoughts on the subject
The enforcement part is the part I agree with fully since there are stickless controllers that don't have SOCD clean up. I would say that part of this stems from the fgc wanting to use thier old tools. I feel personally that hitbox will stay as my preferred type of controller especially with things like CrossUp allowing stick players to get the same advantages as hitbox with alot more flexibility is just an evolution to the classic arcade controller. Again tho controlling the controllers is the part we as the community should put moire resources into.
Keeping in mind that the Hitbox comes out of the box with neutral input SOCD resolution, e.g. SOCD = neutral. So the whole argument basically comes down to people modding their Hitbox, or other lever-less, to do something it's not supposed to....just like people can do with their arcade sticks.
@@La_Revolution Dude, the cross-up is arguably the "worst" of them all. It's basically a super optimized version of a controller, which already inherently breaks the game.
Learning to time the press of two buttons simultaneously is like the first and easiest thing you learn to do in fighting games, now that ability let's you master some of the hardest moves with a Cross-up. If the evolution of a controller deters from the game it's just as bad as letting people macro moves.
*Sigmund
shut up p*ssy. but nice outline, I agree
they SHOULD let steroids run rampant in sports that shit would be so much more tight.
I've always wanted an NFL league where it's literally "Steroid mutants VS Cyborgs" that shit would be so flames.
Particularly considering that they are already.
@@raindance_ssbm yeah nfl needs to get on this
They basically do already
old snl bit - All Drug Olympics - ua-cam.com/video/jAdG-iTilWU/v-deo.html
I love that Aris is known across the globe in the FGC and he still streams with a fucking green tinted stream that looks like it’s in a library basement 😂😂😂
It’s because his chat told him he needed a green screen to be a pro streamer, so he got a green screen 😂
This is an old debate rearing it's head again. All modern fighting games should have neutral socd cleaning but there's nothing to fix travel time advantage.
Even if the fighting game has neutral socd cleaning, people's hardware doesn't have to.
@@8bit_pineapple WDYM? If the game cleans the input what does the hardware matter?
@@Eval999 Your device can be setup to have the behaviour you want when you press both buttons. E.g. Send only the last button pressed so you can do instant f to b inputs.
So it doesn't matter if the game has neutral socd cleaning if the device cleans the input in a different way.
This is Aris at his best. One for the archives.
"Everyone is bent out of shape"
Proceeds to get bent out of shape
He's part of everyone
wish that were me
Aris is literally the only one complaining about hitboxes.
@@donovanchilton5817 It started with that guy from Ars Technica
@@donovanchilton5817 even if he is the only one, doesn't mean he is wrong
14:20 to 14:35 gets me going. Every time.
Considering that this was a tangent, albeit a good one; there is a gem of a pep talk in here. Appreciate you, Chief.
Rip messaged me and said he could hit way more homeruns than Arnis.
like aris himself said once, cheat until it's banned. who cares about "honor" when there are money prizes on the line?
This like integrity in the FGC or lack there of. Who's cares if the latest Capcom fighter is crap when you can get a lot of money from sponsors via shilling?
@KT you are very over a weight
Some people are ok with trading integrity for money, some are not.
@KT Then if organizer develop a software that shows on a separate screen your inputs live on tournament, and if they detect you modded your hitbox and are doing macros and pressing directional keys at the same time, and they ban you on the spot, would you be up for it?, that would be a great solution, is not about how good a controller is, the problem is hitbox gives you and unfair advantage on top of being able to hide your cheats better, which they do.
@KT Ok weirdo lmao Keep telling that yourself.
I think instead of tournament organizer policing this, the game itself should be programmed to not allow these impossible input to be registered in the gameplay
Exactly. It's easy for devs to prevent impossible inputs and they could also limit input speeds beyond what's possible on a stick/d-pad.
@@epicon6 agreed. Going forward this should not be an issue, but in all the games that exist now, it's an issue.
One point that he faults heavily on is "embrace technology" section. Steroids are much more complicated than hitboxes. Steroids give measurable and lasting damage to you, especially in high doses. It legit shortens your life. A guy last month had a heart attack and had to be resuscitated at TWENTY SEVEN.
The reason that steroids are banned isn't because it gives you an advantage, even though many think so. Otherwise, working out would be banned. And even genetics are uncontrollable, so should we not allow people 6'2 and above into the NBA? No. Its because of health. Pros sports players can't just take steroids will nilly. Hitboxes can easily be a more precise and skill oriented input that doesn't have so much baggage that stick/analog has. But instead, we are left at "its better than the legacy shit, ban it!". The obvious thing seperating hitboxers from cheaters would be macros. Everyone should just switch to hitbox, it just makes more sense.
@@epicon6 guess limiting speed would be a terrible decision seeing how the PC market is the largest gaming population and growing. Would feel like shit to play on a keyboard.
sf6 is already doing it which is good because thats the one fair point on hitboxes but aside from that it really isn’t cheating.
EDIT: Before I begin, I main a lever arcade stick. I dont want to come out like im defending Hitboxes. I just understand how this control type works, so this reply is very objective based.
The whole thing that Aris complains on hitbox about directly transfers to pad... so are we gonna ban pads too? Lets just ban everything except the traditional lever sticks.
1. 1:50 onwards - Like I said, this controller type is already out there. Pads. There's basically very little travel time from moving forwards to backwards vs a lever type stick. The same applies to the analogy concerning charge characters in SF. If you think I'm BS'ing, check out Brian_F clips titled "PSA regarding PS4 pad and multiple directional inputs at once". Im showing you factual evidence here, instead of bringing up strawman arguments that have no factual basis.
2. 4:26 Now we're talking about speed? He said it himself that Pads already have access to this, what's the problem with a hitbox and singling it out? So what's the difference?
3. 7:27 Now we're talking about Hitboxes that are not tournament legal. These ones are in the absolute minorities, and most people use a regular type of hitbox, because these ones are definitely cheating. People for sure can make these types of controllers, but I thought the topic was about a regular hitbox controllers? You just derailed the whole argument and strawmanned here.
4. 10:00 - 13:30 Now the argument have completely went to talking about real cheat controllers now. I thought we are addressing official Hitbox controllers that have no tampered SOCD cleaning? The analogy makes sense with the real cheat controller for sure, but you still haven't addressed the Official Hitbox controllers. Those ones like I said, are tournament legal because their SOCD cleaning is not tampered and follows the tournament standards.
5. 13:35 - Again, how is this not same for pads man? You keep putting these analogies but it's already done in pad... How come the HB's are getting sh*t, I dont understand it.
6. 18:29 - Pressing DB and forward can be done, that's why the analog is there, and people actually do this already. Again, refer to the vid "PSA regarding PS4 pad and multiple directional inputs at once" on YT. So what's the issue to having another controller input (HBoxes's) that just emulates pad? Doesn't make sense to me, specially the "Alienating" part. 23:21 Also yes on that last part that guy was using a macro, however if it's customizable *VIA IN-GAME* , that's not the controller's fault but the game's programming. In any other game, that sh*t would not fly, and would've gotten that person banned if he has modded his controller with a macro.
Conclusion: So what I got from this is Aris has an issue with the non-official All-button controllers. Those ones that are customized, have tampered SOCD cleaning, and not tournament legal. However, he seems to have 2 opposing opinions. At his conclusion he said that those ones that Daigo uses (it's the official Hitbox mind you) is cheating... which factually is not. Like I already explained, it doesn't have tampered SOCD cleaning and it just follows the same concept that the regular pad has. I just dont think he understands what SOCD is tbh.
Agreed, he was all over the place, here, and people will use this to back up their elitism towards hitbox players even more smh
Real gamers use the steering wheel controller, fair and balanced. But in seriousness, hitboxes are here to stay as well as any other devices in the future. The optimal solution is event organizers provide the cabs, but that's not ideal. Remember when players used the select button to plink jab? People will find ways for all kinds of shortcuts, it is what it is.
Sometimes the weird controllers are fun. I've been able to get 6 characters to elite smash using a single broken switch joycon with harsh joystick drift and i have to say, it's my only claim to ever being good at a game ever. I've beaten many, but with difficulty for quite a bit.
@@jasonbliss6030 idk but that sounds pretty damn hard. Props!
If you payed attention to Daigo at all you'll know the the future of Hitbox is not great. Not only was he the one straight up saying it's the better controller he was even asking the Devs themselves "Is this cheating?" That's when we first started seeing Hitboxes being checked for SOCD cleaning. The pro player Daigo who's using Hitbox all the time is the same guy who started the discussion if it's broken. I hope that put a lot of things into perspective.
@@resolutelament Thank you! It was difficult but with the amount of hours i had to play like that against lvl 9 CPUs in 2v 1s in order to finally stand a chance. I'm sure anyone with more fighting game experience than me would've had it in 2 weeks of training and not 6 months lol.
Left/right on bumpers. Up/down on triggers. Thumbs can rest over two directions, and two face buttons at once. That's got us 4 buttons. 4 more are free for lesser actions.
Boom. Kof hitbox players have no advantage over pad players. World peace.
I was surprised with the amount of patience aris showed here, you can tell he’s passionate
He knows his shit.
What patience? He spends like 5 mins insulting everyone lol
@9:58 "There's no honor if they can't police it."
That's what honor is, though; doing what's right even if there is no one to enforce right and wrong.
@KT that wasn't the point of my observation at all, but thanks for being a bigot. I'm a big fan of bigotry, and I'd like to see more of it in the wild.
14:32 - 14:56 this can be applied to many games. The whole argument of "oh it's hard to do" is irrelevant, if the thing is "simply superior". In competitive games you need to exclude how hard something is, and focus on what is simply superior. Examples include Kabal in Mortal Kombat 3 doing instant air gasballs and there being no counterplay // or champions in League of Legends like Irelia, Yasuo, Zoe, Camille, Yone, Zeri, Viego.
It doesn't matter if it takes you 12 months to master a character, if it's superior when mastered, it's superior overall.
deadass, it gets tiring having to hear people say "it's hard so it's okay!" to excuse clearly unfair bullshit
Akuma in tekken 7 is a good example, one of the hardest execution in the game but nobody cares because the reward is too high.
this is bs because some techniques cant be mastered like block pewgf
@@Chaoblahippo There is of course nuance involved, you wouldn't nerf something if there is a 0.000001% chance of anyone doing it. However, if ENOUGH people can do it then this may be enough to nerf it.
For example in high rating lobbies, maybe it's a high percentage OF the high rating lobbies that can execute the said OP. i.e. Say 1% of overall player-base can execute the OP thing, that might actually be 50% of high rating lobbies - in that case, the reality is it's busted in high elo.
I've played hitbox, I was able to do consistent electrics farrrrrr faster than I ever was able to learn them on pad or stick. Hitbox is not hard in any way shape or form. BUT it is unintuitive (which is why you see mixboxes now) and can be awkward. None of those make it "hard", its literally just a learning curve. The same way a controller console gamer moving to MNK will be garbage until they can get used to it.
Man, he was on fire in this one. That's what happens when you spend all of your skill points in speech mastery, kids.
He is far from a master in speech, he just buries whoever he reponds to in stoner insults and the chat hiveminds behind him. I love aris, but he has some shit takes quite often
@@Kenlac92 hey alright.
so many luck points it bleeds into speech
@@Kenlac92 accurate assessment tbh
@@Kenlac92 but he does debate the subject well after he gets around the petty stuff. I think that's evident, even if he doesn't win in all metrics of the debate.
“My opinion is they should ban pads”
W
He touched on this, but the hitbox style controller is as exploitable as the game devs make it.
I'm sure game devs will keep in mind hitbox capabilities with future fighting games.
They already have been for years because its basically a keyboard
They could significantly ramp up the execution of fighting games, it's not easy to use hitbox on older games or things like KOF with all the directions and stuff. That will literally never happen though as now pad players can't play and it goes against the trend of making fighters easier.
@@saado99 Arbitrary execution barriers are lame. These "cheats" simply expose the shallowness of using complicated inputs in an attempt to balance things.
@@dandre3K They obviously aren’t arbitrary since they prevented cheating devices like the hitbox from being effective.
@@YourMasta You don't know what arbitrary means. Even if your comment made sense that wouldn't make me wrong. For example there's no difference in game relevant utility when comparing ➡⬇↘ to ➡⬆↗ or ➡*↘. That's arbitrary. Differences only arise due to different input designs and whether any button pressed has a mapped function, such as jumping. Pressing ⬆ vs X to jump is also arbitrary, any meaningful difference is only due to the conventional placement of the d-pad and face buttons on controllers.
There's no room to cheat complicated inputs if those inputs aren't complicated.
I was about to say: you can actually emulate the features of a hitbox on a pad with the analog sticks. There are easy KBD tutorials online using SOCD tricks
You have to switch right and left analog for this. And switching analogs is banned in tourneys, but somehow hitbox isn't banned. They simply allow cheating in tournaments.
@@ilose2winTR I don't know much about Tekken, but nuckledu used to instant boom on pad all the time in sf4/5 using both dpad and left stick
Modern games don't allow you to press both directions anyway.
So if he's arguing it's just about the speed difference due to the ergonomics then I don't see what the problem is.
also i'm pretty sure daigo got caught using a non-SOCD cleaning hitbox and they banned the controller, so it is getting policed, though that's one of the only times it's been reported so it's possible that daigo was just made an example of and there are still people out there with no SOCD cleaning
that one didn't matter anyway tho because all modern fighting games have SOCD built in to the game. he got this banned because he had duplicate buttons outside of what a controller has. you can only have double directions but one has to be the dpad and one has to be the left stick so it is still the same inputs as pad.
it had last-button priority SOCD (B+F=F , F+B=B)
afaik this is allowed in most every tournament, but it does make charge moves kinda cheap. the controller was banned for duplicate buttons
I don't think Daigo was "caught" with anything. I think he was using a button box with extra buttons on purpose very publicly to push the limits of the rules since there weren't any rules on that at the time. I remember him making a statement that he wanted them to make rules about it or at least make their position clear.
@@swoop8941 bruh in SFV, forward plus back equals forwards on keyboard and pad.
Back in my day we had to wiggle our stick back and forth, uphill both ways.
Aris is totally right, but there is also no reason that you can't mod a regular stick to the do the same thing. Take a Qanba Obsidian and alter the end row buttons to be left/right, like a sneaky Cross|Up. So the only way to not cheat is to only use a sanctioned and sealed controller - whatever type it is. This would also alienate the stick modding community which seems like a real bad idea also.
Tournaments should be played on back to back candy cabs with standardized hardware like they have for the past 30 years
@@Vanity0666 I agree. How this is not the standard is beyond me. Every other competitive sport has the same equipment for each athlete. You can't bring your own ball, bat, hockey stick, puck, etc.
As a hitbox user I agree with a lot of the points here.
The only thing I disagree with is the idea that 'if you're are going to use a hitbox why shouldn't one cheat all the way (not using SOCD cleaning)'. The premise here is that not having SOCD cleaning is 100% better than having it.
For some games SOCD cleaning enables you to hit the directional buttons in a way to get certain inputs in the game that not using the cleaner locks you out of. In his hypothetical 'hitbox with a limiter vs the chaiwan hitbox' there are some cases where it makes sense to pick the limited box because it actually has options that its alternative does not.
Should I listen to some scrub from the comment section or literally cheat on my chaiwanese hitbox, I wonder what the majority of people would choose.
You are the exhibit B.
@@nidarach2702
The 'less cheating box' is one that socd cleans F+B into neutral
The 'more cheating box' described at 7:50 doesn't do this cleaning to make F+B into neutral. Which means F+B is either F or B - commonly it would be whatever you input last if you wanted to 'cheat even harder' but in this case it doesn't really matter which one it is.
Try doing a kbd on a non socd neutral cleaning box without letting go of back and get back to me. The 'more cheating box' is in the same camp as the arcade stick when compared to the 'less cheating' box. 2 out of the 3 can't do it without letting go of back. It's not an easier/harder it's actually not possible.
The whole cheating vs non cheating debate is invalid because you can mod any controller to cheat. Pad stick or hitbox.
@@nidarach2702 chill out streamer simp, he made a good point, you clearly don't play on leverless since you don't even know how SOCD cleaning helps with shortcuts.
@@kamekaze878 This, if you going to cheat, a traditional arcade stick is way better for this since nobody will suspect you of using any macro. You can even do a stealth 2 directional input on it with a fake R1 R2 macroing as left and right without SOCD
The best and least intrusive they can do, is probably have to do a quick button check before every set.
Show that you have a single mapping for all these buttons, and no additional macros. Don't kick the guy out, but tell him to fix his shit.
Other games also have these problems, but like Aris says, the FGC is so niche and fragile.
You can just have a button that enables/disables macros/button canceling skip etc. and cheat away.
How would they do that for every set at a super major like evo. Didn't they just start paying the staff at evo this year lol
The issue is these tournaments are still ran like a guy with a clipboard, there is no money and describing them as professional is a reach. Evo is the only tournament actually worth mentioning and they can barely get their shit together. I mean evo didn’t even get offered to premier any of the big fighting game release trailers LOL Bandai & Capcom hold their own events now or release their big trailers at legitimate events. Only place this controller check could be possible is in Japan, where they actually make money on fighting games
EVO partnered with leverless suppliers this year like snackbox for EVO-branded devices. Its already taken roots in the scene with these partnerships so it's probably not going anywhere. Would be weird to make an EVO branded hitbox and then ban them the following year.
If they ban hitbox or mixbox from tournaments then stick market will lose plenty of money and im sure theres money between all this shit
@KT imo they should just fix the game so u cant just exploit hitbox advantages and thats it, like theres no easy mode for souls-like games neither should it be for fighting games
@KT idc bout them tbh, if they are legal just go with them lol, arcade sticks are for people who are used to arcades since kid or because its funnier to use the lever, just use whatever you find funny
@KT it's a matter of skill and honestly time. Time equals skill. Sure you can figure something out faster than your competitor but the amount of time/practice will usually always prevail. Now, can you get to a level/rank faster by using better controllers essentially ? Yes, but will you have the other necessary fundamentals that were taught along the way for the people who took the actual time? No, you will have missed out. KBDs are perfect for this analogy IMO. It's not just gatekeeping it's time and skill earned. Hitbox is great and I welcome it but it does confuse the possibility vs the impossibility. Which then I just say well time for everyone to get a hitbox because the arcade stick is outdated obviously. Especially if we are talking the best of the best. Evolution of the sport. Devs will have to create special inputs knowing that hitboxes are the main controllers being used now.
@KT How do arcade sticks gatekeep people?
“Stomping on Gods face and putting US flags in his ass” God damn that’s motivating
dude the moment he said to ban pad he got me. Ive been saying pad is fucking cheap af for years as a pad player and that it doesnt make any sense to ban hitbox and not pad. Aris is nothing if not consistent with his ideas
Although Most evo winners never use pad.
@@mikehawk4477 "pad is fucking cheap" cheap or cheat ! Learn to fucking write on keyboard
I imagine how Aris feels is how the horse drawn carriage drivers thought when early motorcars passed them.
Also how I felt watching this, makes me wonder if there's an Amish FGC that Aris should consider joining
@@mannysmultimedia Haha sounds good to me! lets all go raise some barns and Korean back dash to the stables.
Motorcars were notorious and infamous for murdering pedestrians when they came out, so yeah probably not well.
@@MrPodaky LOOK OUT!!
Terrible comparison. Actually, the word to be used here is Asinine. The entire point went completely over your head. Turbo inputs was a new tech for controllers. Should we allow turbo buttons at tournaments too then? No! You can hit multiple directions at the same time which gives you an advantage. That is an objective fact, not an opinion. Arcade sticks only or pads with 6 buttons and 1 stick/d-pad.
Aris, i still remember that idea about RC's being hard. Thanks for always reminding me that people really thought it was hard
My pc comes with a keyboard so you cant ban the simplified version of it. Also both versions of "pressing both buttons at the same time" have advantages and disadvantages on different games and different characters so to call one as "having limiters" is inaccurate.
Interestingly aris is making a completely different point to the vast majority of people complaining about hitbox, who just think it's cheap. I think it'd be worth having TOs inspect all controllers internally immediately before top 8. That way you could at least be fairly confident no one with a controller that allows for typically impossible inputs would make a significant placing or get any money. Though I can see the day coming where someone's controller stops working and they blame the TO for it..
I think that's fair.
Did someone get caught with a modded fight stick at some Evo top 8 or something years ag
@@YoungPhenix I think Full Schedule used to use several extra buttons in MVC3. I believe he was forced to disable them/use a different stick before.
@@shiwanmi I can totally see that happening in MVC3. And I think Sako had a modded stick that allowed him to have extra button presses to do his one frame links or something like that.
@@YoungPhenix ahh interesting. I didn't know about that. Sako's already dangerous enough as it is. All those buttons for one extra frame. Talk about precision.
Feels like this take is kinda goofy. If fighting game peripherals were restricted to ONLY sticks built and monitored by tournament organizers it would make sense. But people can use pads that have 2 methods of directional input and even keyboards that can input both directions at once. Realistically, I could even set a button on my stick to be forward or backward and that's just as unpoliceable and would be just as cheating as a Hitbox.
I can just imagine Aris would say that proves his point
I would be able to hear out this argument if the games were actually made with the intention of being played this way. Before long this kind of stuff is just going to be patched out of modern fighting games.
Or you have games like SF which will just lean into it, and make everything input-related completely brainless to execute.
You should probably watch the video
@@iorilamia I mean, I did. I just don't get what the ideal end result is for people who have this kind of opinion. You might just be old and fat, you know?
I laughed so hard during this stream it was crazy.
I remember MainManSwe brought up this argument when he talked about the video of somebody hitting 24 perfect electrics in a row with hitbox
It was damn blood bath in chat. Rest in peace to the hitboxes users typing essays for debate class.
@KT see you next week amigo
@KT I see how they justify weighted dice users now.”They are just better dice, bro. That’s not cheating”
@@kukai31 Comparing any input method to dice invalidates your statement.
" Your HitBox has honour... My HitBox has no honour" - Old Klingon Proverb.
If hitbox and mixbox is cheating, pad is also cheating since you can do socd inputs by using analog and pad. My friend does that for guile in sf4 days
Yeah no one disagrees with that.
i use a pad for tekken, what's a socd input?
Listen to the first 20 seconds of the video.
@@pitchwife7573 using the D-pad and the analog stick
yeah but you limit your movement with your pad when you try to do that. with a hitbox you litearly can have all your fingers just sitting there. that shit is wack stop defending it
"Fuck my opinion and fuck everyone's opinion. I don't want hear it. Opinions suck" I feel this.
The socd makes it so if you hold opposite directions it just gives you neutral for left right or jump for up and down, the only argument is about how theoretically fast you can do things, sf letting those inputs count is weird and insane is the main deal
Aris' argument is that you can mod the hitbox to cheat and mess with socd and there won't be anyone policing these things and probably never will
@@fr0mage if you play on a normal pad, you can hit left and right using the pad and analog stick as well, which is a trick some zangief players used to get very quick 720s while still moving.
@@fr0mage Daigo actually got disqualified from a tournament a few years ago since his old hitbox didn't have socd clean up. So there is policing but I agree there needs to be more even as a hitbox user myself.
certain PCB boards let you do different things. Like you can make it cancel left+right into neutral, sure. You can also make it so that if 2 directions are pressed at the same time, it resolves the LAST input you pressed. Then if you're holding back, and while holding back press forward, and you are inputting b+f at the same time, you get forward. This is what he means by no travel time and avoiding "neutral" at the same time
@@fr0mage you can easily cheat with any modded controller. Your argument can be applied broadly. It’s too weak of an argument.
if hitbox increases the skill ceiling then why should we purposely limit ourselves to an outdated stick just because thats the way the games started out?
Fact of the matter is this.
Aris ain't no top player.
If hitbox is "cheating" then riddle me this, why the fuck aren't every top player using it? If it really gives you an advantage, then why the fuck do people still use stick?
It ain't regulated... no one's going to deny them the prize money if they use a hitbox. But they still don't?
Just a fact that if the top players really considered hitbox as an advantage, I'm sure 90% of them would have switched.
@@bradejensen Who of the at least top 20 of Tekken has "switched" to hitbox?
All of the SOCD shit that’s possible on hitbox is also possible on pad, and it always has been. It’s *easier* on hitbox, which according to Aris shouldn’t matter, but for the most part people STILL don’t use it because it doesn’t give a large enough advantage to justify jumping through hoops to do a special input.
To his credit his logic is consistent, the fact that a playstation pad can input left + right is in the video and even before it's discussed he says he also thinks pads should be banned.
The only thing I disagree with is that he says SOCD L+R = neutral (the honest box) is worse than something like last input wins, (the cheating box described at 7:50). A box that can korean backdash without letting go of back (because of the socd cleaning L+R into neutral) can't throw a sonic boom without letting go of back and vice versa. There are tradeoffs but he presents it as if SOCD L+R is always worse and 'if you're going to cheat why not cheat all the way'.
Pad, the default device for console, has access to socd. Keyboard, the default device for PC, has access to socd. Arcade stick, a 3rd party custom device, does not have access to socd. If you made the choice to buy it, that doesn't make everyone else a cheater for not using it.
@@mildsome9713 I agree, Keyboard is the default device for PC. You have to make a choice to use a different controller on a PC.
Although Aris doesn't really get into why he thinks pads should be banned I think he's talking more from an arcade purist perspective. Such as saying fighting games, but especially older fighting games, were designed and balanced around the arcade stick as the input method.
@@mildsome9713 your argument might have some merit if the genre had been designed for play on pads.
Here's the thing I want to know. why are we placing the onus on tournament organizers and even the scuzzy hitbox competitors to police this nonsense. The games' devs should design their game so that you can't press multiple directions at once. (in future games of course) that way you use any stupid controller you want and outside of macros or even hacking you wouldn't be able to cheat like you can now. I would liken it to bunny hopping. In most first person shooters you can't hop because the way the inputs are designed.
Well the game registers the controller's inputs, not the human's. Bunny hopping, I'm guessing you talk about CS still has the same problem as fighting game, but you just bind it to the scrolling wheel instead of buying a separate type of keyboard or whatever. And most fps's just doesn't have this mechanic available, either by locking acceleration, messing with friction, jump cooldowns, animation locks etc. But those games do not achieve this by blocking player inputs in that sense.
This is closer to being able to have buttons to do instant turns, like some games do. And let's say CS gets this, everyone would start to play with stupid low sensitivity if they cared about not being at an insane disadvantage because they could just use a bunch of hotkeys to do 90 and 180 degrees turns.
I have a friend that used a glitch, that I think still exists in CS, if you turn off raw mouse input, if you look at the score screen and press secondary fire to bring up your mouse cursor you can just flick with your desktop sensitivity to turn instantly to where your cursor is placed when you release tab(the button for score screen). A neat little trick if you use very low sensitivity in-game. Got him banned from a few sites because it looked like he used an aimbot.
@@ickerolig Actually, I was talking about older fps in general, and you're right it's impossible in most modern fps due to acceleration ect rather than input so it was a bad example. What I meant was something like an artificial gate that prevents non-cardinal inputs (fb,ud, fdb ect) while still allowing "natural" 8 directional input (f,b,qcf ect)
Exactly.
The ideal situation is controllers with no SOCD cleaning and *the game* deciding what is or isn't allowed. If the game lets you block both sides by pressing both directions, that shouldn't be a knock against the input device. If capcom doesn't like last-win SOCD, then CP should patch their game so that 4+6=5, it's not more work than adding a character or any other change to the game balance
When PEDs are illegal but not policed it's called doing a LeBron.
??
The argument is that hitboxes also can't hit left and right at the same time.
Wait no! You're not supposed to expose the flaws in his argument, showing he has no idea what he's talking about!
This video convinced me to get a hitbox
Just do it!
Nothing wrong it it, if Daigo "the Beast" uses it so you should too.
The first tournament I ever traveled to, I remember seeing someone playing Street Fighter on a keyboard. Didn’t know that was possible on a console until that tournament.
So happy someone's saying it! Hitting two directional inputs at the same time is just cheap. Bar none. I'm gonna learn to use one as long as it remains tournament legal. I can always go back to stick if it ever does get banned.
you can do that with any controller aside from stick.
Oh yeah? That’s what YOUR arcade stick does. My arcade stick can hold both directions!
Hell yea. My chaiwanese arcade stick has 2 of the face buttons mapped to directions and allows SOCD. Better ban stick too.
The very first thing he’s saying is completely true, I can’t use an arcade stick at all, it feels like I have a clear understanding of what to do but my wrist won’t allow it versus when I play with a controller
But Aris, what if I play on my computer keyboard? If a fighting game is released on Steam it should be allowed right.
I imagine KB users have always been quietly laughing in the back of the room while they watch all of the stupid hitbox arguments.
@@sc065 "Look at these idiots....well back to playing on something that's basically a hitbox that's been used in fighting games for decades"
@@Tom3kkk there are keyboards for consoles, just saying
If game Devs just made it so multiple directions at the same time never results in a valid input it wouldn't matter how juiced your pad/hit box is
Every modern game already does that
Still is abusable. For example Korean backdash on hitbox abuses this. Hold back the whole time and alternate pressing forward and down. The back + forward input cancelling to neutral makes a very complex motion become extremely simple. Just hold back and alternate down and forward. That easy.
@@JumbaJumby remember wat aris said, hard or easy is irrelevant. is there actual cheating happening? no
@strad might not be true but ok good
@PichuLord stop thinking like a scrub and you'll get it
@KT that happens in your controller not in the game. And even if it did Devs are smart, they'd figure it out.
As long as bring your own controller is a thing, people will still do cheap shit to make things "easier" because my stick is better than YOURS. The point is tuning your gear for an advantage isn't cheating if you're doing the same thing but better. Doing things impossible for others is what's cheating. TO's can't control it but TO's don't make the rules, the Devs do. They could patch out the steroids if they wanted to.
arcades shoulda used buttons instead of sticks from the start imo
If this is all about SOCD being cheating/not possible on other controllers, the game itself is what determines how those inputs are interpreted. Modern games can just account for the possibility and make it function in a non-broken way (inputting left and right at the same time makes you block neither direction, lose charge, etc).
exactly! Let's the devs determine how SOCD is handled and ban all SOCD cleaners. My controller shouldn't be altering my inputs anyways. Let the software/devs determine SOCD behaviors. Kill the cleaners. That is the only thing that will kill this debate. It's also the correct answer.
I say ban the cleaners because the game never sees the SOCDs being pressed. It sees what the cleaners turn SOCD into. Some have last input priority, some default to neutral etc. I'm sure you know this, but others that pop in to this thread might not.
Not that simple, a game can have it's own way of interpreting SOCD, sure, but the Hitbox or whatever type of controller you have can handle the SOCD in a hardware level before it sends the inputs to the game. For example in SFV the game interprets back and forward at the same time as neutral, but if your Hitbox is setup to handle back and forward at the same time as down, it will send the down input to the game, effectively overriding the game's way of doing things
@@LekaFGC exactly. In my opinion it's the cleaners that are the issue. They were needed before because the games didn't have any way of handling it. But most games do now. So let's kill the cleaners and move on. Or have a tournament lockout switch or something that turns them of.
@@LekaFGC if f+b=down then the controller isn't doing anything a normal stick couldn't also do as far as possible inputs. all the game needs to make sure of is that opposite directions can't be active at the same time, and that any movement from one direction to its opposite is separated by a neutral input. Those are the only things hitboxes can do that sticks and pads can't
@@ConnieFWill sending a down from a b+f input is not the same as sending a down from a down input but a better (more technical, more egregious) example would be setting the SOCD from the Hitbox to be Last Input Win, which is such that the hitbox will send to the game whoever opposite direction was hit last, like holding back then hitting forward will send forward. The game will never have a chance to solve the SOCD with neutral since you technically sent forward to it, but it is just a roundabout way of performing the b+f action and getting a different (and in this case naturally impossible) result, which is back, then forward while having no neutral input between
Who doesn't like to do hadoukens with a stick like they're shifting up in their Hellcat? Hitboxes are for Nissan Leaf drivers
As a hitbox player this had me rolling 🤣
Isn't it similar to just using a keyboard?
Yes it's just like a keyboard
Keyboards are the reason Hitboxes were created. The first ones even had the wasd keys design just like a keyboard. It was meant for a generation of PC players that never went to the arcades and failed to adapt playing with a stick. It only became a problem when og players realized they could take advantages playing with them
They are keyboards with bigger keys. Lots of games don't let you input forward and back at the same time because of this. Tekken 7 for example.
“it was like an ancient gathering place where people would go and you wouldn’t take anything with you ... you would use THEIR hardware ... and then arcades died ... “
ah, it looks like it’s beginning to rain
What's crazy to me is that the hitbox is like... over a decade old? Like this isn't even new technology. I have one for my PS3. It's so clearly an advantage (imo) even unmodded and played fairly, and afaik it's still a pretty niche device.
Fighting game players are really traditionalists, and that's what has kept it as a minority device. I mean if you want to cheat, you can cheat (not in the same way) on a modded arcade stick too.
you can mod any stick to do the same with one/two buttons being motions, who checks for that?
cant you change keybinds on a regular controller, and a as well as change the d pad out for a more singular button thing. so you can hit backward and forward at the same time?
Aris is totally right except for the part about pads in the beginning. There are a few pad players in street fighter who play claw, and use the analog to buffer inputs for stuff like frame perfect hadoukens.
Still not as OP as what a crossup can do lmao but this is how people will justify it. I don't really care about FGC but I was really interested in evo 2022 to see if crossups would pop up/what the reaction would be.
Didn't Leffen use one in Strive?
@KT What a bitch answer. Competition needs regulation and needs to have everyone in an equal playing ground. Yours is the argument that cheaters use in online games "well there are other cheaters not getting banned so I'm in a disadvantage unless I cheat too, so it's justified".
@KT I see you replying under every comment that says some shit about the hitbox. Chill out man
@KT Fighting games were first created and designed to be played on arcade cabinets so I wouldn't call it a stretch to say a game like Street Fighter was designed to be played on stick.
@@saado99 Yes
The script this day was so fucking fire, the entire vod is worth a watch
Tell me you haven't used a hitbox without telling me you haven't used a hitbox.
ua-cam.com/video/0VClLTCxB7s/v-deo.html
10 years ago amigo
I like playing stick more but Aris definitely hasn’t used the hitbox, at least not long enough to realize using hitbox has minimal advantages.
I play hitbox on occasion and I’m equally trash lmao
@@wavetime3651 I always sucked at sticks so transitioning from a pad to a hitbox made a huge difference for me. If it was really that big of an advantage, all pros would use them.
@@djbenjaminjay1984 I love my snackbox micro. I usually use that for SF which I don't play often. Mainly use sticks for Guilty Gear and Melty Blood. Feels more natural for some reason.
Why are arcade sticks the metric of what should be legal? If it's an evolution of the input mechanism then let it evolve?
Again , you have no idea what you are talking about. Pads vs sticks don’t matter. Pressing 2 direction inputs at the same time is physically impossible with those controllers except for hitbox. Gormless newbies trying to talk shit
Because they are stuck in their ways and they refuse to allow adaptation to peripherals. They want to be using arcade sticks until the end of time.
@@ELGUAPOIV literally didn’t listen to his main point. Hit boxes do unintended physically impossible movements
Because that is standard that literally built the FGC culture as a whole
Hitbox and Keyboards dont make players better but it does water down skill level of execution making things like wave dash, electrics not nearly as impressive
@@JIX9ISLER1986 again it’s not about what’s difficult, it’s about what’s impossible.
31 minutes of tears and crying. 11/10 content
1st: The game is released on PC. Standard peripherals for PC are keyboard and mouse. Using the same logic for allowing Playstation or Xbox console pads, one could argue for allowing keyboards in competitive Tekken. Hitbox is essentially the same as keyboard.
2nd: Pad CAN input left and right at the same time (one on the dpad, and the other on stick).
3rd: The game developers can police it by changing how the game treats SOCD (simultaneous opposing cardinal directions) inputs.
Hitbox may simply become a necessary peripheral for competitive gaming - in the same way monitors, headsets, pad paddles and other accessories give those who own them an advantage in first-person-shooter games.
just get done finger paintin amigo?
Wanna get a hitbox to wear on my chest and play like an accordion.
Yeah like the neutral input can be skipped on hitbox, so it's literally less frames
Controllers like the Hit Box obviously give a huge advantage but it's not an unfair one, it's just like using the Fosbury Flop for high jump instead of the previous technique. The canceling opposing directions are a software feature and not an hardware one, as it can be seen on any gamepad by turning on the analog stick and pressing one direction on the d-pad and the opposite one on the stick; the Hit Box just allows the player to take full advantage of it. The only way to nerf it in a way that's fair to every player and controller is to go to the Tekken and SF devs and tell them to remove the SOCD feature from their games, because the alternative of banning controllers like the Hit Box but not other unofficial ones like sticks would be even more unfair than allowing them.
controllers provided by the tournaments sounds like the grossest shit of all time
Play to win, use whatever tool within the ruleset that allows you to win as much as possible. No excuses, and no stupid, useless debates.
The debate of whether or not it's "cheating" doesn't matter AT ALL. All that matters is what the tournament you're playing in says is allowed or not.
Hitbox 100%, factually is better than a stick, which is also not up to debate. So I'm using one unless they start being banned, then I'll switch back to my old stick.
I just purchased a Qanba Dragon a week ago. It’s my first arcade stick ever, because I feel like it’d be a great way to introduce to 2D fighters since I’m currently using Geese in Tekken 7. I just found out about the whole Stick vs. Hitbox vs. Mixbox argument. Glad I came here for the multiple discussions. I’ll probably purchase a Hitbox once they’re compatible with the PS5 (if they still exist haha).
Isn't the Hitbox arcade already compatible to PS4 games on the PS5 e.g. Tekken 7?
You can make one yourself or order a snackbox from jfa i like their design more tbh
Can't you use the d-pad and analog stick to enter multiple directional inputs at once?
Yes
@@KaledTV lmao yeah and having better execution? Cheap. It's cheating. Going into practice mode and learning the movelist? Cheap. It's cheating.
Yes.
yeah but in 3d games that'll fuck you up real quick its to inaccurate. KBD with analog as one of the inputs and you'll see quickly that its isn't very viable. maybe a game like MK it would work.
@@KaledTV lol so learning a whole new set of motions and manipulating two movement inputs simultaneously is cheating. Sounds like you're the scrub who complains about things he's too lazy to learn. Is pianoing on a fightstick cheating? What about Korean backdash? Turnip-brain take dude
Didn't they fix the left+right thing?
SOCD? Nah, it's still core to the boxes
@@dustinliam7878 False. You cannot input both left and right at the same time, it's just something uneducated kids held on to from 2012
@@starkpnw Yea, I misread that as "you could press both at the same time to produce neutral", so you're correct. That being said, using SOCD is still faster to come back whatever input you were first holding (e.g. doing korean backdash is significantly easier on hitbox bc back is being held, allowing smoother movement)
@@starkpnw still, the overall point is that the range of motion you have to deal with on stick and dpad doesn't exist on hitbox. It's all instant.
@@DrWiley-fm3ik if that's the point, the point is stupid
This couldn't be put any better, I don't even understand how there is an argument.
Also the it is harder argument is so stupid. How many times in speed runs did people end up doing things that were thought to be tas only? And now are routinely done in speedruns as a matter of need just to be able to get a wr?
Can't you do the same on a normal arcade stick? Let's say the game requires 4 buttons like tekken and your stick has 6 or 8 buttons, you can just set up one of the buttons for back and do the same thing.
In the end everyone can be and is a bitch
Thats what hes saying every hitbox player is and always will be a bitch
This guy is one of my favorite modern philosophers. I don't even play fighting games. His knowledge is universal!!
The game is not designed to use them makes it cheating. If a fighting game is designed around it them sure.
Currently relearning Tekken on an official hitbox. Its fantastic. But thats also from having 30 years using a keyboard-like setup in life. It just makes sense.
Aris wasting time trying to explain common sense and logic to chat smh.
I've been playing on a Keyboard for 12+ years and people still tell me to switch to Arcade sticks lmao, even though I'm always winning against them they dont understand just how much of an advantage I get.
Keyboard is even more OP compared to Hitbox since you can press multiple buttons with a single finger.
The argument that fighting games are designed for arcade sticks is so dumb to me. No they're not. 99.9% of players play on console/PC. Maybe you could ban Hitboxes in your CvS2 or 3rd Strike tournaments, but anyone who still uses sticks to play modern fighting games is just an enthusiast and shouldn't be dictating any tournament rules.
Devs aren't stupid, they know what devices the players use. If they deemed SOCD shenanigans to be unfair, they could patch it out of their games in an instant. This also makes Aris' comparison to the NBA silly, since there are no constant rule changes to major sports, whereas frequent patches to FGs is the norm.
Again , a gormless newbie not knowing what he’s talking about
Lmao cmon bro don't just make shit up. There are rule changes in the NBA at the start of every year. No, they aren't like patches in the way they come in every few months but there has been WAY more "patches" total to the NBAs rulebook than in any fighting game.
@@a1_hp When I said "constant" I meant like every few weeks. But doesn't your argument just further prove how wrong Aris is? If even the NBA changes rules so frequently, then why is it so outlandish to expect the devs to address a perceived problem through patching the game?
It's crazy that this is 2 years old, and I still see pad and arcade stick users win more than hitbox users.
Sometimes I wonder why I even watch anyone other than Aris. So entertaining.
The "My cat's breath smells like cat food" fucking got me! 🤣
So what I'm hearing as the argument against Hitbox is that it can do things that the other controller options can't do.
But can't stick do things that pad can't do, and vice versa? so is using a stick cheating? Or is that given a pass because that's what is standard in arcades?
Which, if that's the logic, then we just need to make Hitboxes standard in arcades, and it won't be cheating anymore.