Okay I realize now I should take one of my replies about Fear and Hunger, copy it, and pin it here so people have a more fleshed out answer: It was mainly on twitter and also some people that kept trickling into the discord, but while I initially said I'd be open to doing a video about the Fear and Hunger after being asked, I changed my mind after realizing how flippantly it treats certain subject matters for edge points and additionally I take HUGE issue with how the creator tried to pass it off as being Berserk-inspired. The only way I could see the latter is if someone just looked at the most gruesome pictures from Berserk but never actually read the manga. These people did not take me saying 'actually never mind. I really don't like the stuff in this game and don't want to give it lip service' well at all. The last year has basically been every week or so someone coming into the discord or repeatedly @'ing my on Twitter asking for the game, me explaining for the umpteenth time that 'No, I object to the game and don't want anything to do with it', and then them taking it as if I'm the literal devil and pitching a fit at me. I've had some very negative experiences with the Fear and Hunger fandom this year and each one makes me want to make a video about the game even less. A Fear and Hunger video is never happening on this channel or on any platform I have. I know better than to ever let any fandom harass me into making a video about their thing because once that happens the first time, every fandom ever now knows that bullying you into making a video about their thing works and they will be relentless until you cave in again, and again, and again. Standing your ground is an important part of being a creator.
It is berserk inspired though, Even if it only took the gore which it clearly doesn't it would still be inspired by berserk. Just because some dumb people harass you doesn't mean you should be dismissive with a game and labeling it before attempting to understand it.
Look I know you mean well but I've noticed that a lot of folks who don't like my stance on something pull out that cheap "yOu JuSt DoN't UnDeRsTaNd." It's high school level gatekeeping. It's the perfect mental block against someone else's opinion by just saying they aren't familiar enough with something to render judgement and therefor all opinions you don't like are invalid. You don't need to dump dozens of hours into something to say, "I really don't like this and feels it mishandles things."
im personally a big fan of fear and hunger but i truly believet hat it is not for everyone and most people who are thinking about playing it i just tell not to, its not an easy game to get into and definetly not a pleasent one, though while the game does do a relatively poor job of tackling some of its adult themes, the sequel doesn't include nearly as much visually horrific scenes with simply reference's to the gruesomeness, but its not a game that everyone should play and if you dont want to play it theres nothign wrong with that the reason why people refer to it as an imm sim is that it does have some aspects like being able to use items or special skills to solve soluttions and the fact that alot of the game and combat is a big puzzle with lots of ways to solve it, while the game never really makes you colour in its lines i dont think its an immersive sim, but i also would like to say that if you are willing to push past the really uncomfrotable subjects there is a genuinely interesting, unique and at times fun experience, though im not saying you have to and its completely up to personal preference, though to most people id say just dont bother with fear and hunger
@@CharlatanWonder a decent chunk of the community are highschoolers who are edgy and heard its cool, never played it and just like to know about it. The game is super fucked up, i dont wanna list hte things that the game makes me feel are uncomfortable but i find this uncomfortableness intriguing and makes me want to delve deeper, if you do change your mind Termina handles the sensitive subjects with alot more care and is in general a much more accessible experience, but seriously, dont take the people who are yelling at you to play it as people who have actually played the game. Some might but most dont, despite it only being like £4 or something, the people getting upset at you for saying it mishandles things are the ones that dont understand the game and dont have the maturity to get that a game that covers the topics it covers is only for very certain audiences
That's not meant to denigrate the S tier quality of TDP as an experience/game but merely as an ImSim there are better examples from more dedicated games. Consider that TDP straddles multiple genre's much like BG3 and as such - it's a bit of a surprise that it appears here at all.
@@jamesducharme1711 Probably because it has a crafting system which enables multiple approaches better than an inherent stealth game, thus a better ImSim example. Anyway why are you asking this? Ultimately it's not my list but I have the maturity to see why something may have been chosen over something else. If it was a stealth list no doubt TDP would be S++ Tier - it should be. Ask the Channel owner it's their opinion. Stop it with the school playground bickering.
@@TheT0nedude TDP and SS2 were the first immersive sims to use any real emergent problem solving (you can light torches on fire in thief (which was not an established mechanic) attract zombies to kill guards and vice versa or you can try to blow up locked doors and in case of ss2 crush a robot with an elevator) if we are going to use systematic game structure as an excuse to shit on a beloved franchise thief series just ain't the one especially considering how old the games (and their engine) are. No I think charlatan just doesn't like the games (notice im not trying to argue im just trying to explain why I think systematic game design is not a good reason (which wasn't your argument you just assumed that this is the reason for charlatan's ranking) for a horror game to be a better imsim than thief)
if you like bg3 try the other games larin has made dos2 and dos are almost on par with bg3 but sadly you can not get on the boxs you stack in those games but the rest of it is there
I've never really thought about whether or not the Hitman series counts as an imsim; i always just thought of them as their own thing. But they do effectively plop you down in a sandbox, with a bunch of tools, and leave you to figure out/decide how to accomplish your goal. I can't really think of a feature that other imsims tend to have that hitman doesn't. If you haven't played them this is probably the best time to do so.
I reckon they are an imsim. The entire gameplay of hitman is pure make your own path do whatever here's a million ways you can do it. Only thing I feel it misses from other imsims is upgrading different skills, but HITMAN World of Assassination and blood money both give you rewards depending how well you do stuff so ig that fits there
@@scivoideh, being penalized for killing is normal for almost every immersive sim I remember, except maybe Deus Ex, being more flexible. It's always balancing the ease of just killing someone with either the consequences or the rewards. Dishonored is kinda both, for example.
@@scivoid silent assassin is just a rank, like your money in thief or not killing anyone in dishonored. You can still beat all the games however you want, blood money even has those newspaper articles at the end of every level reflecting how you beat them
I'd say they do, you can get very creative with how you complete the missions. There are bespoke high quality developer intended methods of doing them, and there are some people on UA-cam who throw muffins and violins around to get world records on the leaderboards :)
@@TheMC1102 I get that, but it sounded like you were saying they should be in the "Borderline" tier. Which is something I strongly disagree. If that wasn't what you were saying, never mind!
I really don't understand your reasoning of the original System Shock being in A tier while the remake isn't considered an immersive sim at all. looking back at your review of the remake you didn't seem to hold anything close to that opinion, just that some things changed and some things improved in terms of being more like an immersive sim
He doesn't seem to have any clear idea of what an imsim is supposed to be or some firm definition in mind, just what he likes. I mean ostensibly Cyberpunk 2077 is almost as much of an imsim as Deus Ex, and I'm not saying that makes it a great game mind you, but that the mechanics of the 'imsim' Ion Storm and Looking Glass games have trickled down into the mainstream and have been there for a long time now. Even Ubisoft made use of the general concepts in their games, both the Far Cry sequels to the Crytek original and the more recent Watchdogs series. In some regards it was perhaps never much of an useful category, niche or genre, but rather more of a buzzword by Specter to hype up how realistic games were getting in terms of simulating things, which then went on to become standardised. And if the term was quickly growing meaningless in the industry then it got worse when opinionated pseuds like Charlatan started using it as a term for 'games I like'.
I and one of my friends are completely biased and objectively correct. Eye Divine Cybermancy is S tier. 32 player co-op. No we don't have 30 other friends who play this game we just like the option and the pocket anti tank gun.
I don't feel Amnesia - The Bunker as an immersive sim. Opening a door forceful and loud with a gun or opening a door forceful and loud with a brick aren't really different approaching to overcoming an obstacle. It's immersive, I give you that, but its options are way too limited.
For me, Dishonored 2 is to Dishonored what Mankind Divided was to Human Revolution: a better experience across the board. Every mechanic that I didn't like about the first game has been improved and everything I already loved is bigger and better. The only thing both games imo needed was a more meaningful manipulation of the environemnt (being able to turn off lights would've been awesome), and a more adaptive AI that reacts to your strategies and forces you to try new ideas.
You're correct. Video creator fucked up. Dishonored 2 is S tier and the game any immersive sim should look towards when measuring their merits. A crack in the slab is as brilliant as it gets.
I had a hard time keeping track of YOUR definition of an immersive sim, by proper definition you discredited half these games because "you have to go through linear designs" okay then you're saying games with multiple branching paths and rpg mechanics is an immersive sim but then you go on to say games like stalker or cyberpunk arent immersive sims despite having all the previously states pre-requisites to your definition. Overall I like your video but it'd be helpful to have you break down what an immersive sim is to you prior to listing the games because trying to keep track through the video it felt like you kept changing the rules of "what an immersive sim is" because of your personal experience with the game (nothing wrong with disliking a game either but that doesnt make it excluded from a genre because you dont like the shared similarities). Not trying to hate just trying to point out where I kept getting lost on the topic.
alright going a little further, you need a psych eval. The hypocrisy in this video is insane, "system shock is an immersive sim, but the remake which is the same game isnt". You're a troglodyte dude just say you don't like some games rather than discrediting what they are.
@@Mystic_HatterNot that I disagree with you that a lot of the games he discredits here as not being immersive sims do deserve to be on the list over say, Amnesia: The Bunker if we’re going by his own definition (e.g. Tears of the Kingdom) but the whiplash between “not trying to hate, like your video” to “on second thought you are a troglodyte who needs a psych eval” is funny AF lmao
And the original Divine Divinity. And Ultima VII. Pleb discovers the mutated offspring of Richard Garriott and thinks that the Deus Ex formula finally arrived to RPGs. His BG3 review will be terrible.
Man CTRL ALT Ego really didn't mesh with me at all when I played it, but you put it above Deus Ex. Maybe I'll give it arry some time and see some of what you do in it. If nothing else, that was a brave listing and I've got to respect that
CTRL ALT EGO is a game I felt was middling as a game but amazing as an immersive sim if that makes any sense. It starts slow. Far too slow and restricted for too long. Took me probably about 7 hours to reach the point where it started feeling like a proper immersive sim but then the next 10 hours were great. Since all skills are valid for progressing using a different playstyle the shotgun skill is bit of a trap since it turns the game into a shooter and you don't really need to use anything else. Amazingly well done immersive sim but a bit flawed as a game.
Where would you put Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead? I'm a little more suprised to see Disco Elysium or Half Life mentioned, as that's like asking "Is mayonnaise an immersive sim?"
If Baldur's Gate 3 can be considered an immersive sim, then their Divinity: Original Sin games (especially the second one) should also be considered as they are also quite open and creative.
Yeah but divinity and divinity 2 are WAY more locked down than bg3 I love divinity and its even better than bg3 in some ways but i dont think it hits imsim level of freedom.
I hope Bloodlines 2 and Shadow of a Doubt turn out to be GREAT GAMES. Cyberpunk 2077 is the most recent great one, and up there with Deus Ex HR in best games. The funniest new sim games are those 1st person indies where the player shops, drives vehicles, gambles, hunts, farms, etc. but all designed pretty badly into one game, haha. 😄
the base stalker games(since we arent talking about the modded sandboxes like anomaly) have very little room for players to do something since they follow storylines. when someone/something needs killing you kill them, usually in semi scripted encounters alongside scripted helpful npcs, there usually is one entrance and one exit to every dungeon/building, and you follow the path you need to take for the story to linearly progress, maybe stopping at a few ruins to look for trinkets in between, with the only major player choice being the stack of artifacts you use, and the gun/armor you equip. The base games are excellent shooters and some of my fav games around, but not im-sims. Cruelty squad gives you giant levels filled with entrances and exits, vents and windows, secret actions and places to hide, gives you a stack of weapons and upgrades to unlock or find and says "go". Its a very pure im-sim because there is no intended path, it has no heavy scripting to set up kills in each level, just markers of people to hit, scattered enemies, and a bunch of buildings. It has a really high ratio of emergent gameplay(the key part of an im-sim) to intended play, one of the highest in any imsim
Can't believe you did Dark Messiah dirty like that! It deserves way more credit for having some of the best FPS melee combat ever seen, even by todays standards.
i replayed the game literally days before this vid and idk, i feel like people really exaggerate the zombie/spider thing. theres not that many of them at all, but annoyance sticks to memory i guess
Have you played it in recent years though? I replayed it earlier this year, and it's pretty damn rough and the combat is far from as good as I remembered it being.
@@emdeo It was so much more than kick kick kick. Directional melee attacks, pick up any physics object and throw it, parries, combat staffs, elemental effects, synergies with magic effects, enemies getting fatigued after taking damage to the point where they start crawling around on the floor. These intricate systems were miles ahead of Bethesdas pisspoor attempts at melee combat, for example.
One could argue that Bioshock 1 and 2 are immersive sims given the definition of imm sim can sometimes vary and isn’t as well defined as other genres Bioshock 2 has all the same features that 1 does but with improved gameplay. The only thing it lacks is the U-Invent. Disqualifying it due to “feel” doesn’t make sense. As for VTMB, that is arguably more of an RPG but could go into either. For the System Shock Remake, it’s unclear what exactly was removed to make it disqualified in your eyes as while things were changed the flow of gameplay is largely the same.
Its so stupid how he can consider Dishonored as an Imsim, yet System Shock Remake when it barely removes a few, if rather negligable things is suddenly not an Imsim: Totally cap.
I'd say Bioshock 2 would barely make it, mostly due to the level design being a bit more streamlined and not as open. That being said, Bioshock 2 is fucking amazing.
At this point I don't even know what an immersive sim is anymore, due to BG3s addition to the tier list Is project zomboid an immersive sim? Is kenshi an immersive sim? Is caves of qud an immersive sim?
i really respect charlatan wonder for putting a horror game in which the only imsim element that it has is the fact that you can break a wooden door in multiple ways on S tier while other genre defining games are on C tire i really do respect and admire his boldness
I think once I grind through Bg3, GTFO, and Bomb Rush Cyberfunk i'm gonna pick up Ctrl Alt Ego and Acid Knife if they're both released. The latter probably won't be an imsim but it's borderline in the craziest, best ways. I honestly wish Powerhoof sacrificed all the resources for The Drifter because I know it'll be mediocre in comparison, but at the same time I do understand their choices.
Another potential addition to the Borderline category is "Iji", an indie game that came out back in the 2010s. Iji is ostensibly a 2D action platformer, but with enough tools and secret paths that it's possible to avoid/nonlethally subdue every foe in the game. Highlights include hacking your own augmentations to reset your stats in a precise way so that you can trivialize an early boss with an endgame weapon, and using a different endgame weapon to blast open a door (behind a wall) to bypass an entire portion of a level. Still nowhere near enough non-combat gadgets to really make the cut, but definitely interesting variety in approaches especially for a game of its type - also an impressive number of ways the game world and characters actually react to those approaches, even if it's only a smidge of extra dialogue.
Love this list! And this channel is one of my go-tos for discovering new immersive sims. I have found some absolute gems through you, many thanks! One overlooked game I feel deserves a mention is Neon Struct by Minor Key. It's basically Thief but set in a Deus Ex-like setting. Very minimalistic but worth a playthrough. Two future imsims that might also be worth a look are Skin Deep and Core Decay. I was also eagerly-anticipating Consortium: The Tower but haven't heard anything about it for quite a while now. Can't wait for Peripeteia and Shadow's of Doubt's 1.0!
Thanks! and while I haven't heard of Consortium yet, I'll admit it was an intentional choice to not include Core Decay in the honorable mentions because that game's been almost entirely radio silent for a couple years now. I have no idea what's going on at 3D Realms/the dev but there isn't enough activity to justify putting it among games you can expect to come out in the next year.
Great video, I completely agree with your opinion on Ctrl Alt Ego, I knew I was onto something special when I tried the demo and I bought the game right after :D
Very, very happy to see you put Ctrl-Alt-Ego #1. The game deserved a lot more sales, and my hope is this video makes anyone who hasn't picked it up yet to buy it. The (one-person) dev deserves more success for what he created.
Amazing video, I've been following you for a while now and I've been wanting an in depth guide as to which immersive sim i should play first (I havent played any yet) and this video helps a TON with guiding me through that
I honestly have to say THANK YOU and thank the youtube algorythm for showing me this video. I've always (apparently) loved immersive sims but never really knew it was a whole genre i just knew i liked games such as thief deus ex dishonored and prey but now this video kinda opened a big door for me lol. I already got CTRL ALT EGO couple of days ago and have been playing the shit out of that game
This video expanded my steam wishlist. I'm especially interested in ctrl alt ego. Thank you for letting me know what's good and worth supporting the developers with
Eyepatchwolf mentioned in a short sentence in his video on Fear & Hunger that during gameplay he found out it was an immersive sim, i think that's where this is coming from
You could say that tho, genres are just a vain attempt to categorize something that is becoming harder and harder to categorize. And it feels like he kind of is gatekeeping the term a little but it's still a good video.
Yeah, if I recall correctly, I think he mentioned that the design reminded him of an immersive sim more than of a typical RPG, and given all the content I've consumed I think that's totally fair. I'm not sure that he would necessarily call it an imsim by strict or clear criteria, though; the point was more that it shares some of the ethos of immersive sim design with rewarding out-of-the-box thinking, stacking different fleshed-out mechanics and systems, etc. Part of me almost thinks there should be a separate category for stuff like that - the new Zelda games certainly come to mind, and I'm sure there are many others, as well.
@seansachs6105 i agree with the guy commenting before in that charlatan is kinda gatekeeping here. And ich am not defining fear & hunger, havent played it yet only seen gameplay and the eyepatch video. But eyepatchwolf said: This is not an RPG!? This is an immersive sim! Not quoting here btw 😄 And that sentence. Even if he didn't want to put the game into a genre brings This şort of misconception for people saying he should review it 😄
@@sultanbaba1230 A good western CRPG tries to reward out-of-the-box thinking, though. They're supposed to allow for multiple, distinct approaches to its challenges based on character builds and in-game player choices. The point of these games is to make the player feel that their choices/approach affects how the game progresses for them, makes it unique/personalized for them even. Even if these games didn't have 'emergent' or physics-based mechanics, or processed generation of levels/items/etc., their developers would try to think of everything their players may want to do in game, and accommodate for it, often rewarding the player for trying some silly or obscure thing. What eventually became called the "immersive sim" was Deus Ex using both the western RPG's multiple/custom solution design (in distinct skills/weapons and in quest resolution) and the physics-based emergent gameplay of its 3D engine, to allow for genuinely novel solutions from its players. I wouldn't call isometric CRPGs like Baldur's Gate 3 immersive sims though, since they're the parent/progenitor of the im sim: developers like Larian are just updating them with the emergent mechanics that are possible now. If earlier RPGs could've had stacking crates, oil slicks, pushing NPCs off cliffs, etc., they definitely would have, and they'd only call it a technical evolution of the genre.
I'd say Fear and Hunger is 100% Survival Horror. Eventually you're remembering routes to avoid enemies/ balancing dwindling resources and it clicks that it's survival horror. Termina especially.
Rather than arguing about what is an Im-sim, or which is the best on the list, I want to ask "what would be in your best Immersive sim if you could make one" The game I've wanted since the days of the 386dx computer was a game where the computer was playing out a sci-fi war, and your actions could affect how the frontline moves. Attack an enemy force with a mech - great! Infiltrate a factory to sabotage production - also a possibility. Missions tend to be generated on a threat level - attack helicopters won't be sent out for just one guy, but man portable weapons can't deplete vehicle shields before they recharge, so that doesn't work in big fights. Concentrating on crippling the enemy tech base will cause them to switch to a strategy of overwhelming numbers and simpler vehicles, but that doesn't mean your side can deal with the altered threat. A concept that has appealed to me more recently is one where you need to manage allies, who have their own short and long term commitments. Calling in too many favors at once can mean they won't be available later. Social engineering to alter some of their situations can affect things too. If you shut down a company one of your friends works for, they will have more available time, but not the monetary resources. Altering areas to have lower crime rates means the police can do more work for you.
I think you may in part describe _Falcon 4.0,_ a hardcore flight simulator in which you controlled an F16 in a fictitious new Korea-war _(How hardcore? Let's just say the manual had almost 800 pages and nearly _*_every_*_ control of the original fighter jet worked as intended)._ And what you are describing is more or less the framework of the entire war you were involved in. You could pick and choose your missions according to what the AI thought would be available atm, and the kind of missions, _and very much so if you screwed them up or not,_ pushed the frontline a couple of clicks. And every tank, _every_ vehicle, *_every_* single unit of the *_entire_* war, even *_every_* infantry unit, was simulated in real-time. So let's say you bombed a bridge, now neither you nor the enemy could use it _(until it would be repaired if possible),_ and maybe an enemy tank unit had to take a detour because of that. Or maybe you screwed up and let a few bomber through your defenses and a couple of your airfields get bombed with special anti-runway penetration bombs. Now you will have fewer support in the air and you will have to equip extra fuel because you will have to start your next mission from farther away. Every single thing you did or didn't do, had the potential to alter the course of the war. A war that was fully simulated at all times, if you were in the air or not.
This essentially means roguelike or roguelite mechanics in a less pronounced sandbox format. The only problem of such a potential game is the story. It is no question that while roguelikes/sandbox games have good worlds, their story is weak. This is because emergent story doesnt have the emotional impact of linear storytelling. And to be realistic we are far from having good AI that can produce good emergent story, let alone good linear story. You are better off searching for games that have some form of linear story (example at 10 days of war, this cutscene happens & the front changes), coupled with roguelite elements (RNG types of forces). Reason for roguelite is that we dont want to have extreme variables for the RNG forces. Too low and you destroy the enemy, too much and they destroy you. Alternative it can be more roguelike, but have permanent upgrades at some points (ala Edge of Tomorrow, your character remembers some things & gains more experience).
When it comes to classifying individual games as either "ImSim", "Not-ImSim" or "Borderline", I think I pretty agree with you 100%. You're spot on. My only disagreement is with BS1 being in the borderline tier. It should just be moved to "Not ImSim". However, when it comes to the scores given to the actual immersive sims, oh boy! There's some *really* crazy ones in there. Some of them almost made me openly weep. But that's totally OK of course, to each their own.
It's always nice having a concise list of imsims or games similar to them, the actual category on steam is filled with city builders and flight sims because I guess people see the word "simulator" and think it means farming sim applies. Found some great games through your channel!
I adore KCD but I just don't see it. I'd put it alongside Fallout NV or something like that. It's absolutely immersive and kind of a medieval life sim to some extent, but that's not what we mean by ImSim. (Yes, it's nitpicky.)
KCD is totally a Bethesda RPG, not an immsim. It has some core elements there that can be misconstrued as imm-sim like (as can be found in any Bethesda or Bethesda styled game) but it's not an imm-sim.
I just played through System Shock 2 and while it was a great game, I just dont see how its any more of an ImSim than the BioShock games. It has lots of complicated mechanics, sure! But there is not much in the way of going outside of what the devs intended or making your own gameplay. The story in on rails and while you can fight in may different ways, those are just RPG mechanics at the end of the day. It just boils down to where you invested your "skill points".
Thanks for the update charlatan. Just to throw this out there: even though i would say Hitman (world of assassination specifically) is not an imsim, I would still definetly recommend it to people who love imsims. Also would love to hear your thoughts on it charlatan, but I know you got a lot on your plate so imma just cross my fingers and hope it might happen someday :).
i think its fair calling zelda not an imsim , but its emergent gameplay is definetely not "accidental" i have no clue how u took that away from the newr zelda games
There are multiple interviews where the devs at Nintendo bring up seeing all the crazy exploits people figured out with Breath of the Wild and they decided to go in a direction that encouraged it even more. To say it’s “accidental” is definitely strange, and honestly except for being open world and third person the game is even more an imsim than something like Bioshock.
@@RayhanKabir-o3vmost store bought tomato sauces aren't all that good and Prego is one of the "bottom of the barrel" brands. For a long time I was using that store bought tomato sauce for all my cooking, but I recently started making my own sauce at home. It's really easy and it's just as cheap if not even more cheap than buying store bought sauce.
Nah. The devs are way too heavy-handed in constraining your actions. It's a soft fence with the whole "law enforcement" system and all, but it's still kinda bullshit.
When I started this video I did NOT expect to end up learning how to cook a flatbread pizza but my god am I gonna go to the store tomorrow to get the ingredients. I didn't know how simple it was!!! Thank u
What was the name of the game mentioned at 23:47? It sounded like therapedia but it's a nightmare to try and understand what you just said. Google had gone to shit so it just thinks I keep trying to type therapy.
considering that emerging gameplay is like, the biggest reason to play mgs V instead of any other MGS, i'm surprised you don't consider it an imsim but tbf i do understand that calling it a sandbox stealth game is better since a lot of funny stuff you can do is planned out by Kojima beforehand and doesn't always emerge organically also i love the "it's just pathologic" line hehe
The ImSim genre boundaries continue to confuse me. By the logic stated by the titans of the genre(warren spector, harvey smith, raphael colantonio), the point is to have systemic ways of interacting with the world and solving problems. Set missions with an open playing field of possibilities for the player to get creative. This to me seems the main point of ImSims. Just immersive systemic games. I don't see why MGS V wouldn't be. I think stacking boxes should be forgotten as some indicator of an ImSim. I'd be glad to hear some perspectives.
Blood West is marginal at best. You kill monsters with guns and melee weapons. Sometimes you sneak past them. That's it. If it's in the ImSim conversation then I think all stealth action games are in play: Generation Zero, Homefront Revolution, Hitman, the Assassin's Creed series, the Splintercell series, the Metro series, the Dying Lights, even Farcry 3-6 depending on difficulty and play style. I also noticed that you disqualified the System Shock remake because it can't be "cheesed" like the original. But earlier you disqualified Bethesda's games because their emergence results from exploitation, i.e. cheese. That looks like a contradiction that places System Shock in and Skyrim out for the same reason. I think more work needs to be done to distinguish good cheese from bad cheese. Good list, though!
I would argue that The Evil Within should ne added in the borderline immersive sim tier, regarding how you are supposed to improvise a lotta times, using environmental traps and chaining mechanics together to cheese the enemies. Aswell as the crossbow that gives you so many options to approach encounters. Ive heard a lot how people described the evil within as a survival horror game that behaves (at least partly) like an immersive sim
the best example as to why morrowind is not an immersive sim is because it has so many quests that you have to do one thing specifically and it doesnt work right eg you are supposed to hide a bone in someones chest next to their bed, but they never go to sleep, so the only way it can be done is if you are invisible.
Morrowind is an RPG not an immersive sim. This list & the one before it just arent that good for this reason. If we go down that road, every RPG ever is an Immersive Sim as well, because it puts you on the shoes of the protagonist. So we have to define the term 'Immersive Sim', so as not to get any confusion: Immersive Sims for the most part are First Person games (for more immersiveness), that employ Simulation Systems (Systems that resemble/simulate real world activities), have open-ended gameplay (its your choice how to proceed) and also have emergent gameplay (meaning gameplay that emerges beyond what it was designed by the developers, example by placing mines on the walls & then climbing on them to reach a ledge. If it doesnt break the simulation/real life too much, then this is emergent gameplay). That means that Morrowind or BG3 isnt an immersive Sim, but simply RPGs with immersive elements.
@@edgepixel8467 Spelunky is a 2d platformer/exploration/roguelike game with procedural levels. It has no/very limited story, the mission structure is basically non-existent (just dig deeper, get more treasure). There is not much realism in Spelunky, there are a lot of things for the sake of gameplay/fun/etc. It has more things in common with sandbox games than imsims.
I am unsure what Baldur's Gate 3 is doing in the ImSims... I mean, it's BG3 and game is GOTY but it's an RPG after all, just made with the approach "Let's emulate what TTRPG players can do in their game behind the table" kinda
While I disagree with the rationale behind excluding Fear and Hunger from ImSim, I greatly respect your choice to not play it. Wonderful list even though my boy EYE still in the 'Eurojank Blackhole'.
@kennethruskin2710 I've unsubbed recently because I don't enjoy his content anymore so I do kinda agree. But then again we are entitled to our own opinions lol
House Party never seems to be on peoples' imsim radars despite having so much emphasis on player freedom and systems driven emergent gameplay. It's also neat that it's an imsim where the main focus isn't violence. House Party deserves to be on B tier
One thing about only occasionally watching your videos is being surprised there's a cooking segment in (at least some of) them, followed by me enjoying that section
Where is Hitman: World of Assassination? Each level is a sandbox that you get to solve absolutely however you want. It feels back-to-back like modern Deus Ex.
what does BG3 do differently that fallout new vegas doesn't, to make bg3 an imsim and fnv not? you said its only choices obsidian allows but so is for bg3 you can only make choices they thought of allowing, fnv just like bg3 lets you kill everything, both let you talk out of situations, both have forced fights where talking inst an option, both have ways of fighting. is it truly only because in bg3 i can literately stack crates and shoot down from them? well i can stand on rocks, cars, or stack shopping carts in fallout so now would that make it considerable? i know what an imsim is is already a blurry line but I've watched a good handful of yours and many others videos on games considered imsims but i myself struggle to say when a game is or is not. not that i would personally call them imsims, but what makes skyrim not an imsim and only an rpg? why would abermore (a game i haven't played or heard of before this video) be an imsim over skyrim, at a surface level skyrim does have (in theory) all the things most other imsims have, free movement, combat choice, some talking, choices have some affect. is it that not every quest in skyrim doesn't have ramifications on the entire world, where people respawn? is it that combat is janky at best? what is the disqualifying factor for it and then what makes the first stalker game a borderline imsim but not its squeals which have everything the first game had but more added in? is it an imsim cant have clean shooter mechanics? could then the metro games be imsims? they are immersive games but i know they hold almost no choice but they do have the (obscure) morality mechanics that do have a change on the entire story, but is it because its more focus and basically only linear that prevents that being an imsim? then what about escape from tarkov? could that be an imsim? it aims to be immersive, does let you move around, and you can jump onto places that seem at first impossible to get onto, but does it being an online only game prevent it? or the lack of a story to follow? i do understand that the subtle ways mechanics are handled drastically change what we would call a game, as no one would call "the beginner's guide" an fps just because you get a gun in it for 2 minutes, its only a walking sim. and i do know a game can just poorly execute on every idea or water them down but still be a part of the genre. but at what points do games even become an imsim btw i love the cooking sections very nice mix up to your vids that are pleasant to watch. its a charming addition!
And no one answer to it... Well, im dont really capable to answer to that question, but i think that skyrim and morrowind are more RPG than Immersive Sim just because of level design. Look at Deus Ex, Thief and Dishonored. This games have good level design for lot of gameslyles. You have sneak routes, you have routes for stealth takedown and you have routes for slice and dice. In skyrim and morrowind you have just the slice and dice route, its not sneak, but if you have right skills, it can become sneak. Sum up: in immersive sim you can just go that way and be unnoticed and in rpg you should have right skills to stay unnoticed. If you dont understand what i tried to describe, then this is quick answer: Different level design.
Given the inclusion of Baldur's Gate 3 on this list, would you consider including either of Larian's previous efforts (Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2) on future lists? I'm not sure they'd ever be worth doing videos on given both how extensively covered they were when released and given how long they are, but DOS2 ticks basically all the same boxes (I assume) BG3 ticks. Also really enjoyed the vid!
This reminded me, even though it uses ASCII style graphics, Nethack has such freedom of approach and such a kitchen sink of corner cases allowed that it should come under the umbrella. "The DevTeam Thinks Of Everything" was coined as a description of just how deep this game is.
@3:27 "Adding some RPG elements to your boomer shooter does not make it an immersive sim." Me earlier today discussing my indie multiplayer immersive sim game project: "this is boomer shooters revived" LMFAO oops.
Great video. The only question that I have is "What constitutes an immersive sim in your opinion?". Its no wonder that people confuse what is and what isnt an im-sim, descriptions you can find on the internet are often vague and broad. So it would've been useful to identify what imsim implies and add it to the ground rules section. I say this, because even being very familiar with the genre - I still found myself surprised that both Disco Elysium and Baldur's Gate 3 made it to the list, yet recieved so different a judgement. Always thought that if not an immersive sim - Disco Elysium was very close to it, but then thought Baldur's Gate 3 is just a great rpg, dnd made virtual.
This kind of sums up the issue people have with CW. I'd say it's almost universally agreed that the "first person" perspective is a core tenet of immersive sims (literally to be immersed in the character) - to the point where it was controversial that DXHR had third person camera angles for cover and conversations. Yet this is entirely optional according to CW's definition. VtmB is widely considered one of the pillars of the imsim genre; it's open ended gameplay is responsive to the player's choices, gives them the freedom to approach most tasks in a variety of ways. But this is considered "borderline" because... well CW never actually says why, just handwaves it as "not having everything required of an imsim" (that most nebulous of defintions). The arbitrariness of CW's definition of imsim is so comical that he classifies System Shock as an imsim and then in almost the same breath says the faithful remake of that game (which is near functionally identical) is absolutely not an imsim. I don't know how anyone could actually hold both of these opinions to be true at the same time, actual wild doublethink. It's like saying Zelda OOT 3DS remake isn't a Zelda game because it made the iron boots toggleable outside the menu. I know this sounds like I'm just hating on CW, I genuinely like his content but his takes are wild and you definitely should get a second - sane - opinion elsewhere.
An exploit is when you can do something because the game *isn't* functioning right. Emergent gameplay is when you can do something because the game *is* functioning right. If that doesn't make sense I can try a much more long-winded answer. :D
There's lots on that list that aren't. Even Alien isolation might seem like one, but it's full of massively scripted moments required to progress the story. Eg you walk into a part of the station and it coincidentally blows up and you have to escape. And the fact the Alien has good unpredictable AI but the rest of the game is basically linear and there's barely any interacting systems other than the Alien. And even Skyrim and stuff is on there lol. To this day he can't really give a valid reason for putting Thief 1 so low apart from it created save scumming. It's true that some missions are really bad, and thief 2 may be more consistent, but those first 5 missions are some of the best if not the best in gaming for me
The Outer Worlds isnt a Bethesda RPG at all, really. It's more an old style Obsidian/Troika RPG in the vein of KOTOR 2/VTMB or, dare I say it, Fallout 1 or 2. There's nothing about it that makes it Bethesda style at all. They didnt lean into "the guys that brought you New Vegas." You guys did. They put "from the guys who brought you Fallout (1)" in the ads because it was made by Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky. Yknow, same guys who invented Fallout and brought us VTMB. Projecting your expectations onto the devs, and then criticizing them for it, is very strange.
good good list, but you excluded one notable potential ImSim/borderline title in Teardown. Teardown is kinda weird cause it has no combat and leans into being like, an emergent physics puzzler / construction game, but the way the main campaign in structured with it's missions is Very ImSim-y tbh, it essentially is a narrative mission based structure that lets you play with the freedom of a builder game with real time physics. I think it's honestly most comparable to Shadows of Doubt, but with a focus on physics puzzling rather than mystery solving, in that it's an immersive sim that also wants to allot you the absolute freedom of a sandbox game.
Charls, I really don't like Discord all that much so I'll just drop this here as a long time viewer I really think you should give Hitman a try. The classics are great but so are the new ones (really anything other then Absolution). REALLY hope to see you do a video on Hitman next year.
Oh yeah totally. It's just this weird almost cosmic thing where I keep saying to myself "man I should really try some of the Hitman games" but something always happens and I never get around to it.
Its more an Imsim than Dishonored: This whole Tierlist is honestly CAP after just that ranking, and I don't even play that many ImSims: But I can tell that if you consider Bioshock to not be an Imsim: Can you really then call Dishonored an A Tier Imsim then Shaft the System Shock Remake? That seems like pretty damn inconsistent logic to me.
I would argue that the Chaos system in Dishonored is one of its best features, with one simple caveat: The game seems perfectly balanced to play without using manual reloading. It's not a very hard game, and with a few tries you can usually do anything you want in any given situation. But if you only reload from checkpoints after dying, you are forced to own your mistakes. And this turns the Chaos system from a gimmick into a core gameplay element, because you're now always keeping a mental tally of "can I get away with it?" in mind. You'll find yourself making decisions like simply killing the target, rather than taking the non-lethal approach, because the latter has the potential of simply getting you into more trouble. Or knifing a guard because it's faster than choking, and you're sure you can do it before the other guard turns around. It made for an incredibly memorable playthrough of the game for me, and it felt like a real punch to the gut when, after a consistently Low Chaos run, I approached the ending to discover I had slipped into High Chaos. Despite my best efforts, people regarded me as a monster. When Samuel the boatman berated me on my actions, it felt like a real judgement. An unfair one. Because I tried, Samuel. I really, really tried. But did you all really expect to set a killer loose on the streets and him not to kill? Ultimately what made it so satisfying is that it gives the game a real sense of your actions actually mattering. Not just the story actions scripted out for you, but everything you do. And it really informs all of your decisions in the game in a way that I found very compelling. Because now it's not a set of interconnected obstacles to overcome, but one big, meta-obstacle. For the two of you who might read this, if you haven't played the game this way, I highly recommend it.
Month old reply, but I'm assuming he means the game getting mainstream attention(I.E. Big UA-camrs doing videos on it and bigger gaming outlets posting about it.) A niche game that somehow got really popular. Charlatan is just too lazy to type.
Man, Ctrl Alt Ego is good but sorry it is missing so many things to make the real ultimate immsim... It lacks a good art direction, it lacks an interesting story, it lacks some gamefeel when it comes to action (action is part of immsim), etc...
I know that project zomboid isnt finished yet, and probably wont be done for a bit, but im curious about where you would rank it or if it would even classify as an immersive sim
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Okay I realize now I should take one of my replies about Fear and Hunger, copy it, and pin it here so people have a more fleshed out answer:
It was mainly on twitter and also some people that kept trickling into the discord, but while I initially said I'd be open to doing a video about the Fear and Hunger after being asked, I changed my mind after realizing how flippantly it treats certain subject matters for edge points and additionally I take HUGE issue with how the creator tried to pass it off as being Berserk-inspired. The only way I could see the latter is if someone just looked at the most gruesome pictures from Berserk but never actually read the manga. These people did not take me saying 'actually never mind. I really don't like the stuff in this game and don't want to give it lip service' well at all.
The last year has basically been every week or so someone coming into the discord or repeatedly @'ing my on Twitter asking for the game, me explaining for the umpteenth time that 'No, I object to the game and don't want anything to do with it', and then them taking it as if I'm the literal devil and pitching a fit at me. I've had some very negative experiences with the Fear and Hunger fandom this year and each one makes me want to make a video about the game even less.
A Fear and Hunger video is never happening on this channel or on any platform I have. I know better than to ever let any fandom harass me into making a video about their thing because once that happens the first time, every fandom ever now knows that bullying you into making a video about their thing works and they will be relentless until you cave in again, and again, and again. Standing your ground is an important part of being a creator.
It is berserk inspired though, Even if it only took the gore which it clearly doesn't it would still be inspired by berserk. Just because some dumb people harass you doesn't mean you should be dismissive with a game and labeling it before attempting to understand it.
Look I know you mean well but I've noticed that a lot of folks who don't like my stance on something pull out that cheap "yOu JuSt DoN't UnDeRsTaNd." It's high school level gatekeeping. It's the perfect mental block against someone else's opinion by just saying they aren't familiar enough with something to render judgement and therefor all opinions you don't like are invalid. You don't need to dump dozens of hours into something to say, "I really don't like this and feels it mishandles things."
Does tera nova strike force centari count as immersive sim?
im personally a big fan of fear and hunger but i truly believet hat it is not for everyone and most people who are thinking about playing it i just tell not to, its not an easy game to get into and definetly not a pleasent one, though while the game does do a relatively poor job of tackling some of its adult themes, the sequel doesn't include nearly as much visually horrific scenes with simply reference's to the gruesomeness, but its not a game that everyone should play and if you dont want to play it theres nothign wrong with that
the reason why people refer to it as an imm sim is that it does have some aspects like being able to use items or special skills to solve soluttions and the fact that alot of the game and combat is a big puzzle with lots of ways to solve it, while the game never really makes you colour in its lines i dont think its an immersive sim, but i also would like to say that if you are willing to push past the really uncomfrotable subjects there is a genuinely interesting, unique and at times fun experience, though im not saying you have to and its completely up to personal preference, though to most people id say just dont bother with fear and hunger
@@CharlatanWonder a decent chunk of the community are highschoolers who are edgy and heard its cool, never played it and just like to know about it. The game is super fucked up, i dont wanna list hte things that the game makes me feel are uncomfortable but i find this uncomfortableness intriguing and makes me want to delve deeper, if you do change your mind Termina handles the sensitive subjects with alot more care and is in general a much more accessible experience, but seriously, dont take the people who are yelling at you to play it as people who have actually played the game. Some might but most dont, despite it only being like £4 or something, the people getting upset at you for saying it mishandles things are the ones that dont understand the game and dont have the maturity to get that a game that covers the topics it covers is only for very certain audiences
*Thief 1 in C tier*
"HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON OLD MAN?"
I DO NOT FEAR YOUR BUILDER NOR YOUR WOODSY TRICKSTER!
That's not meant to denigrate the S tier quality of TDP as an experience/game but merely as an ImSim there are better examples from more dedicated games. Consider that TDP straddles multiple genre's much like BG3 and as such - it's a bit of a surprise that it appears here at all.
@@TheT0nedude So why's amnesia the bunker in S tier?
@@jamesducharme1711 Probably because it has a crafting system which enables multiple approaches better than an inherent stealth game, thus a better ImSim example. Anyway why are you asking this? Ultimately it's not my list but I have the maturity to see why something may have been chosen over something else. If it was a stealth list no doubt TDP would be S++ Tier - it should be. Ask the Channel owner it's their opinion. Stop it with the school playground bickering.
@@TheT0nedude TDP and SS2 were the first immersive sims to use any real emergent problem solving (you can light torches on fire in thief (which was not an established mechanic) attract zombies to kill guards and vice versa or you can try to blow up locked doors and in case of ss2 crush a robot with an elevator) if we are going to use systematic game structure as an excuse to shit on a beloved franchise thief series just ain't the one especially considering how old the games (and their engine) are.
No I think charlatan just doesn't like the games (notice im not trying to argue im just trying to explain why I think systematic game design is not a good reason (which wasn't your argument you just assumed that this is the reason for charlatan's ranking)
for a horror game to be a better imsim than thief)
Okay cool now I don't have to make one of these for another two or three years.
if you like bg3 try the other games larin has made dos2 and dos are almost on par with bg3 but sadly you can not get on the boxs you stack in those games but the rest of it is there
Inb4 2024's immersive sim wave
What if 35 new imsims get released
Is crysis 1 a immersive sim? Its got box stacking, and big "i didnt ask for this" energy with all the augment adjacent abilities
Is Epic Mickey 1 and 2 immersive sims? They were made by Warren Spector and had that feel.
I've never really thought about whether or not the Hitman series counts as an imsim; i always just thought of them as their own thing. But they do effectively plop you down in a sandbox, with a bunch of tools, and leave you to figure out/decide how to accomplish your goal. I can't really think of a feature that other imsims tend to have that hitman doesn't. If you haven't played them this is probably the best time to do so.
I reckon they are an imsim. The entire gameplay of hitman is pure make your own path do whatever here's a million ways you can do it. Only thing I feel it misses from other imsims is upgrading different skills, but HITMAN World of Assassination and blood money both give you rewards depending how well you do stuff so ig that fits there
@@scivoideh, being penalized for killing is normal for almost every immersive sim I remember, except maybe Deus Ex, being more flexible.
It's always balancing the ease of just killing someone with either the consequences or the rewards.
Dishonored is kinda both, for example.
I'd say they're borderline or maybe imsim-lite, they're like babies first introduction to the concept but not quite there yet
@@scivoid silent assassin is just a rank, like your money in thief or not killing anyone in dishonored. You can still beat all the games however you want, blood money even has those newspaper articles at the end of every level reflecting how you beat them
I'd say they do, you can get very creative with how you complete the missions. There are bespoke high quality developer intended methods of doing them, and there are some people on UA-cam who throw muffins and violins around to get world records on the leaderboards :)
CTRL ALT EGO clicked for me the moment I realized I can use the grabber arm to use vent covers as makeshift hoverboards. Absolute goated game.
Bioshock 1 and 2 did have some immersive sim elements, but Infinite was about as far removed from an immersive sim as it could possibly be.
That a pure shooter.
We should have gotten Chronoshock. Damn shame.
Infinite is indeed pretty much a pure shooter, but BS1 and BS2 aren't that much closer though. They definitely are not ImSims.
@@robinmattheussen2395 That's why I said they had SOME ImSim elements.
@@TheMC1102 I get that, but it sounded like you were saying they should be in the "Borderline" tier. Which is something I strongly disagree. If that wasn't what you were saying, never mind!
I really don't understand your reasoning of the original System Shock being in A tier while the remake isn't considered an immersive sim at all. looking back at your review of the remake you didn't seem to hold anything close to that opinion, just that some things changed and some things improved in terms of being more like an immersive sim
He doesn't seem to have any clear idea of what an imsim is supposed to be or some firm definition in mind, just what he likes. I mean ostensibly Cyberpunk 2077 is almost as much of an imsim as Deus Ex, and I'm not saying that makes it a great game mind you, but that the mechanics of the 'imsim' Ion Storm and Looking Glass games have trickled down into the mainstream and have been there for a long time now. Even Ubisoft made use of the general concepts in their games, both the Far Cry sequels to the Crytek original and the more recent Watchdogs series.
In some regards it was perhaps never much of an useful category, niche or genre, but rather more of a buzzword by Specter to hype up how realistic games were getting in terms of simulating things, which then went on to become standardised. And if the term was quickly growing meaningless in the industry then it got worse when opinionated pseuds like Charlatan started using it as a term for 'games I like'.
@@kennethruskin2710Yeah, imsim is not a genre, it's a design philosophy
I feel like his idea of imsim is just "be as clunky and unpolished as possible"
I and one of my friends are completely biased and objectively correct.
Eye Divine Cybermancy is S tier.
32 player co-op.
No we don't have 30 other friends who play this game we just like the option and the pocket anti tank gun.
I did that once. It was a religious experience.
That sounds amazing
Eye is good. Still hoping for the sequel
Ok on the Tears of the Kingdom topic, it doesn't accidentally have emergent gameplay, it was literally made around creative those kinds of moments.
I literally pissed myself and started rolling on the ground screaming & crying when I saw you put thief deadly shadows an entire rank lower
Awww man I just had these carpets shampooed.
I don't feel Amnesia - The Bunker as an immersive sim. Opening a door forceful and loud with a gun or opening a door forceful and loud with a brick aren't really different approaching to overcoming an obstacle. It's immersive, I give you that, but its options are way too limited.
Came for the games, stayed for the food.
For me, Dishonored 2 is to Dishonored what Mankind Divided was to Human Revolution: a better experience across the board. Every mechanic that I didn't like about the first game has been improved and everything I already loved is bigger and better. The only thing both games imo needed was a more meaningful manipulation of the environemnt (being able to turn off lights would've been awesome), and a more adaptive AI that reacts to your strategies and forces you to try new ideas.
And story too. Story bit degraded in sequel.
You're correct.
Video creator fucked up. Dishonored 2 is S tier and the game any immersive sim should look towards when measuring their merits.
A crack in the slab is as brilliant as it gets.
I had a hard time keeping track of YOUR definition of an immersive sim, by proper definition you discredited half these games because "you have to go through linear designs" okay then you're saying games with multiple branching paths and rpg mechanics is an immersive sim but then you go on to say games like stalker or cyberpunk arent immersive sims despite having all the previously states pre-requisites to your definition. Overall I like your video but it'd be helpful to have you break down what an immersive sim is to you prior to listing the games because trying to keep track through the video it felt like you kept changing the rules of "what an immersive sim is" because of your personal experience with the game (nothing wrong with disliking a game either but that doesnt make it excluded from a genre because you dont like the shared similarities). Not trying to hate just trying to point out where I kept getting lost on the topic.
alright going a little further, you need a psych eval. The hypocrisy in this video is insane, "system shock is an immersive sim, but the remake which is the same game isnt". You're a troglodyte dude just say you don't like some games rather than discrediting what they are.
@@Mystic_HatterNot that I disagree with you that a lot of the games he discredits here as not being immersive sims do deserve to be on the list over say, Amnesia: The Bunker if we’re going by his own definition (e.g. Tears of the Kingdom) but the whiplash between “not trying to hate, like your video” to “on second thought you are a troglodyte who needs a psych eval” is funny AF lmao
He clearly states that some games he doesn't list, he likes.
Glad to see Shadows of Doubt get an honorable mention. :)
If Baldurs Gate 3 is an immersive sim, surely Divinity Original Sin 2 could arguably be considered one too, right?
And the original Divine Divinity. And Ultima VII. Pleb discovers the mutated offspring of Richard Garriott and thinks that the Deus Ex formula finally arrived to RPGs. His BG3 review will be terrible.
Man CTRL ALT Ego really didn't mesh with me at all when I played it, but you put it above Deus Ex. Maybe I'll give it arry some time and see some of what you do in it. If nothing else, that was a brave listing and I've got to respect that
To be a bit of a shill CTRL ALT EGO is one of those games that gets better the further you go.
CTRL ALT EGO is a game I felt was middling as a game but amazing as an immersive sim if that makes any sense. It starts slow. Far too slow and restricted for too long. Took me probably about 7 hours to reach the point where it started feeling like a proper immersive sim but then the next 10 hours were great. Since all skills are valid for progressing using a different playstyle the shotgun skill is bit of a trap since it turns the game into a shooter and you don't really need to use anything else. Amazingly well done immersive sim but a bit flawed as a game.
Where would you put Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead? I'm a little more suprised to see Disco Elysium or Half Life mentioned, as that's like asking "Is mayonnaise an immersive sim?"
If Baldur's Gate 3 can be considered an immersive sim, then their Divinity: Original Sin games (especially the second one) should also be considered as they are also quite open and creative.
Yeah but divinity and divinity 2 are WAY more locked down than bg3 I love divinity and its even better than bg3 in some ways but i dont think it hits imsim level of freedom.
tiermaker.com/create/immersive-sim-tier-list-16417706 here's the template if you guys wanna make your own tier list.
I hope Bloodlines 2 and Shadow of a Doubt turn out to be GREAT GAMES.
Cyberpunk 2077 is the most recent great one, and up there with Deus Ex HR in best games. The funniest new sim games are those 1st person indies where the player shops, drives vehicles, gambles, hunts, farms, etc. but all designed pretty badly into one game, haha. 😄
Charlatan is clearly still caught in his cycles of guilt
*you gain brozouf*
My favourite immersive sim is Charlatan Wonder
Could you explain something. Stalker isnt an imm sim cause all problems are solved with ''kill target'', but isnt that the same with creulty squad?
the base stalker games(since we arent talking about the modded sandboxes like anomaly) have very little room for players to do something since they follow storylines. when someone/something needs killing you kill them, usually in semi scripted encounters alongside scripted helpful npcs, there usually is one entrance and one exit to every dungeon/building, and you follow the path you need to take for the story to linearly progress, maybe stopping at a few ruins to look for trinkets in between, with the only major player choice being the stack of artifacts you use, and the gun/armor you equip. The base games are excellent shooters and some of my fav games around, but not im-sims.
Cruelty squad gives you giant levels filled with entrances and exits, vents and windows, secret actions and places to hide, gives you a stack of weapons and upgrades to unlock or find and says "go". Its a very pure im-sim because there is no intended path, it has no heavy scripting to set up kills in each level, just markers of people to hit, scattered enemies, and a bunch of buildings. It has a really high ratio of emergent gameplay(the key part of an im-sim) to intended play, one of the highest in any imsim
@@alexbassett6967 while pretty linear, it's still open world, with a "lively" zone, and immersive aspect, like radiation, food..
Can't believe you did Dark Messiah dirty like that! It deserves way more credit for having some of the best FPS melee combat ever seen, even by todays standards.
the combat should be great except you spend so much time fighting zombies and spiders that you don't get to use it as it's best.
kick kick kick kick wasn't that good tbh
i replayed the game literally days before this vid and idk, i feel like people really exaggerate the zombie/spider thing. theres not that many of them at all, but annoyance sticks to memory i guess
Have you played it in recent years though? I replayed it earlier this year, and it's pretty damn rough and the combat is far from as good as I remembered it being.
@@emdeo It was so much more than kick kick kick. Directional melee attacks, pick up any physics object and throw it, parries, combat staffs, elemental effects, synergies with magic effects, enemies getting fatigued after taking damage to the point where they start crawling around on the floor. These intricate systems were miles ahead of Bethesdas pisspoor attempts at melee combat, for example.
One could argue that Bioshock 1 and 2 are immersive sims given the definition of imm sim can sometimes vary and isn’t as well defined as other genres
Bioshock 2 has all the same features that 1 does but with improved gameplay. The only thing it lacks is the U-Invent. Disqualifying it due to “feel” doesn’t make sense.
As for VTMB, that is arguably more of an RPG but could go into either.
For the System Shock Remake, it’s unclear what exactly was removed to make it disqualified in your eyes as while things were changed the flow of gameplay is largely the same.
Its so stupid how he can consider Dishonored as an Imsim, yet System Shock Remake when it barely removes a few, if rather negligable things is suddenly not an Imsim: Totally cap.
I'd say Bioshock 2 would barely make it, mostly due to the level design being a bit more streamlined and not as open. That being said, Bioshock 2 is fucking amazing.
At this point I don't even know what an immersive sim is anymore, due to BG3s addition to the tier list
Is project zomboid an immersive sim?
Is kenshi an immersive sim?
Is caves of qud an immersive sim?
the clown that made this video apparently doesnt know either so dont worry about it
i really respect charlatan wonder for putting a horror game in which the only imsim element that it has is the fact that you can break a wooden door in multiple ways on S tier while other genre defining games are on C tire i really do respect and admire his boldness
I think once I grind through Bg3, GTFO, and Bomb Rush Cyberfunk i'm gonna pick up Ctrl Alt Ego and Acid Knife if they're both released. The latter probably won't be an imsim but it's borderline in the craziest, best ways. I honestly wish Powerhoof sacrificed all the resources for The Drifter because I know it'll be mediocre in comparison, but at the same time I do understand their choices.
Another potential addition to the Borderline category is "Iji", an indie game that came out back in the 2010s. Iji is ostensibly a 2D action platformer, but with enough tools and secret paths that it's possible to avoid/nonlethally subdue every foe in the game. Highlights include hacking your own augmentations to reset your stats in a precise way so that you can trivialize an early boss with an endgame weapon, and using a different endgame weapon to blast open a door (behind a wall) to bypass an entire portion of a level. Still nowhere near enough non-combat gadgets to really make the cut, but definitely interesting variety in approaches especially for a game of its type - also an impressive number of ways the game world and characters actually react to those approaches, even if it's only a smidge of extra dialogue.
Great game, I highly recommend it.
Love this list! And this channel is one of my go-tos for discovering new immersive sims. I have found some absolute gems through you, many thanks! One overlooked game I feel deserves a mention is Neon Struct by Minor Key. It's basically Thief but set in a Deus Ex-like setting. Very minimalistic but worth a playthrough. Two future imsims that might also be worth a look are Skin Deep and Core Decay. I was also eagerly-anticipating Consortium: The Tower but haven't heard anything about it for quite a while now. Can't wait for Peripeteia and Shadow's of Doubt's 1.0!
Thanks! and while I haven't heard of Consortium yet, I'll admit it was an intentional choice to not include Core Decay in the honorable mentions because that game's been almost entirely radio silent for a couple years now. I have no idea what's going on at 3D Realms/the dev but there isn't enough activity to justify putting it among games you can expect to come out in the next year.
Great video, I completely agree with your opinion on Ctrl Alt Ego, I knew I was onto something special when I tried the demo and I bought the game right after :D
Cruelty squad might be considered a good game, but it shouldn't be anywhere S tier as an immersive sim
Very, very happy to see you put Ctrl-Alt-Ego #1. The game deserved a lot more sales, and my hope is this video makes anyone who hasn't picked it up yet to buy it. The (one-person) dev deserves more success for what he created.
Amazing video, I've been following you for a while now and I've been wanting an in depth guide as to which immersive sim i should play first (I havent played any yet) and this video helps a TON with guiding me through that
I just realized that I've never actually made a 'how to get into ImSIms' video.
@@CharlatanWonder Add it to the list!
I honestly have to say THANK YOU and thank the youtube algorythm for showing me this video. I've always (apparently) loved immersive sims but never really knew it was a whole genre i just knew i liked games such as thief deus ex dishonored and prey but now this video kinda opened a big door for me lol. I already got CTRL ALT EGO couple of days ago and have been playing the shit out of that game
This video expanded my steam wishlist. I'm especially interested in ctrl alt ego. Thank you for letting me know what's good and worth supporting the developers with
Eyepatchwolf mentioned in a short sentence in his video on Fear & Hunger that during gameplay he found out it was an immersive sim, i think that's where this is coming from
You could say that tho, genres are just a vain attempt to categorize something that is becoming harder and harder to categorize. And it feels like he kind of is gatekeeping the term a little but it's still a good video.
Yeah, if I recall correctly, I think he mentioned that the design reminded him of an immersive sim more than of a typical RPG, and given all the content I've consumed I think that's totally fair. I'm not sure that he would necessarily call it an imsim by strict or clear criteria, though; the point was more that it shares some of the ethos of immersive sim design with rewarding out-of-the-box thinking, stacking different fleshed-out mechanics and systems, etc. Part of me almost thinks there should be a separate category for stuff like that - the new Zelda games certainly come to mind, and I'm sure there are many others, as well.
@seansachs6105 i agree with the guy commenting before in that charlatan is kinda gatekeeping here. And ich am not defining fear & hunger, havent played it yet only seen gameplay and the eyepatch video. But eyepatchwolf said: This is not an RPG!? This is an immersive sim! Not quoting here btw 😄
And that sentence. Even if he didn't want to put the game into a genre brings This şort of misconception for people saying he should review it 😄
@@sultanbaba1230 A good western CRPG tries to reward out-of-the-box thinking, though. They're supposed to allow for multiple, distinct approaches to its challenges based on character builds and in-game player choices. The point of these games is to make the player feel that their choices/approach affects how the game progresses for them, makes it unique/personalized for them even. Even if these games didn't have 'emergent' or physics-based mechanics, or processed generation of levels/items/etc., their developers would try to think of everything their players may want to do in game, and accommodate for it, often rewarding the player for trying some silly or obscure thing.
What eventually became called the "immersive sim" was Deus Ex using both the western RPG's multiple/custom solution design (in distinct skills/weapons and in quest resolution) and the physics-based emergent gameplay of its 3D engine, to allow for genuinely novel solutions from its players. I wouldn't call isometric CRPGs like Baldur's Gate 3 immersive sims though, since they're the parent/progenitor of the im sim: developers like Larian are just updating them with the emergent mechanics that are possible now. If earlier RPGs could've had stacking crates, oil slicks, pushing NPCs off cliffs, etc., they definitely would have, and they'd only call it a technical evolution of the genre.
I'd say Fear and Hunger is 100% Survival Horror. Eventually you're remembering routes to avoid enemies/ balancing dwindling resources and it clicks that it's survival horror. Termina especially.
Rather than arguing about what is an Im-sim, or which is the best on the list, I want to ask "what would be in your best Immersive sim if you could make one"
The game I've wanted since the days of the 386dx computer was a game where the computer was playing out a sci-fi war, and your actions could affect how the frontline moves. Attack an enemy force with a mech - great! Infiltrate a factory to sabotage production - also a possibility. Missions tend to be generated on a threat level - attack helicopters won't be sent out for just one guy, but man portable weapons can't deplete vehicle shields before they recharge, so that doesn't work in big fights. Concentrating on crippling the enemy tech base will cause them to switch to a strategy of overwhelming numbers and simpler vehicles, but that doesn't mean your side can deal with the altered threat.
A concept that has appealed to me more recently is one where you need to manage allies, who have their own short and long term commitments. Calling in too many favors at once can mean they won't be available later. Social engineering to alter some of their situations can affect things too. If you shut down a company one of your friends works for, they will have more available time, but not the monetary resources. Altering areas to have lower crime rates means the police can do more work for you.
I think you may in part describe _Falcon 4.0,_ a hardcore flight simulator in which you controlled an F16 in a fictitious new Korea-war _(How hardcore? Let's just say the manual had almost 800 pages and nearly _*_every_*_ control of the original fighter jet worked as intended)._
And what you are describing is more or less the framework of the entire war you were involved in. You could pick and choose your missions according to what the AI thought would be available atm, and the kind of missions, _and very much so if you screwed them up or not,_ pushed the frontline a couple of clicks.
And every tank, _every_ vehicle, *_every_* single unit of the *_entire_* war, even *_every_* infantry unit, was simulated in real-time.
So let's say you bombed a bridge, now neither you nor the enemy could use it _(until it would be repaired if possible),_ and maybe an enemy tank unit had to take a detour because of that.
Or maybe you screwed up and let a few bomber through your defenses and a couple of your airfields get bombed with special anti-runway penetration bombs. Now you will have fewer support in the air and you will have to equip extra fuel because you will have to start your next mission from farther away.
Every single thing you did or didn't do, had the potential to alter the course of the war.
A war that was fully simulated at all times, if you were in the air or not.
This essentially means roguelike or roguelite mechanics in a less pronounced sandbox format. The only problem of such a potential game is the story.
It is no question that while roguelikes/sandbox games have good worlds, their story is weak. This is because emergent story doesnt have the emotional impact of linear storytelling. And to be realistic we are far from having good AI that can produce good emergent story, let alone good linear story.
You are better off searching for games that have some form of linear story (example at 10 days of war, this cutscene happens & the front changes), coupled with roguelite elements (RNG types of forces). Reason for roguelite is that we dont want to have extreme variables for the RNG forces. Too low and you destroy the enemy, too much and they destroy you.
Alternative it can be more roguelike, but have permanent upgrades at some points (ala Edge of Tomorrow, your character remembers some things & gains more experience).
Cool head cannon and opinions on whats “immersive sim” is. Appreciate the effort through all the games. Lots of new games to try!
He has a full video breaking down exactly how he sees the term. See that for full details. :)
Ill watch this tomorrow, have a good time tierlisting!
When it comes to classifying individual games as either "ImSim", "Not-ImSim" or "Borderline", I think I pretty agree with you 100%. You're spot on. My only disagreement is with BS1 being in the borderline tier. It should just be moved to "Not ImSim". However, when it comes to the scores given to the actual immersive sims, oh boy! There's some *really* crazy ones in there. Some of them almost made me openly weep. But that's totally OK of course, to each their own.
It's always nice having a concise list of imsims or games similar to them, the actual category on steam is filled with city builders and flight sims because I guess people see the word "simulator" and think it means farming sim applies. Found some great games through your channel!
I do consider Kingdom Come: Deliverance as a borderline Immersive Sim and I will keep standing by it.
I adore KCD but I just don't see it. I'd put it alongside Fallout NV or something like that. It's absolutely immersive and kind of a medieval life sim to some extent, but that's not what we mean by ImSim. (Yes, it's nitpicky.)
KCD is totally a Bethesda RPG, not an immsim. It has some core elements there that can be misconstrued as imm-sim like (as can be found in any Bethesda or Bethesda styled game) but it's not an imm-sim.
Crazy, I just watched your first tier list last night.
THE FUTURE IS NOW!
I just played through System Shock 2 and while it was a great game, I just dont see how its any more of an ImSim than the BioShock games. It has lots of complicated mechanics, sure! But there is not much in the way of going outside of what the devs intended or making your own gameplay. The story in on rails and while you can fight in may different ways, those are just RPG mechanics at the end of the day. It just boils down to where you invested your "skill points".
I can stand Thief slander but being so obnoxious about it while having a Zoomer level of understanding of it is just silly
Thanks for the update charlatan. Just to throw this out there: even though i would say Hitman (world of assassination specifically) is not an imsim, I would still definetly recommend it to people who love imsims. Also would love to hear your thoughts on it charlatan, but I know you got a lot on your plate so imma just cross my fingers and hope it might happen someday :).
Happy to see CTRL-ALT-EGO at the top. While I'm not sure I'd put it above Deus Ex, I'm also not sure that I wouldn't.
i think its fair calling zelda not an imsim , but its emergent gameplay is definetely not "accidental" i have no clue how u took that away from the newr zelda games
There are multiple interviews where the devs at Nintendo bring up seeing all the crazy exploits people figured out with Breath of the Wild and they decided to go in a direction that encouraged it even more. To say it’s “accidental” is definitely strange, and honestly except for being open world and third person the game is even more an imsim than something like Bioshock.
I was upset with the Thief shaming. Then I saw you actually eat Prego sauce. That explained everything
Lmao what
@@RayhanKabir-o3vmost store bought tomato sauces aren't all that good and Prego is one of the "bottom of the barrel" brands. For a long time I was using that store bought tomato sauce for all my cooking, but I recently started making my own sauce at home. It's really easy and it's just as cheap if not even more cheap than buying store bought sauce.
SKIBIDIBOP MDADA *(explosion)*
What does he mean by this, we wonders?
Prego is good i wont stand for this slander
I tried shadows of doubt and immediately clipped through the floor of my apartment, going to let that one develop for a while 😅
that’s valid, love the game but it does have it problems. Luckily the issues aren’t gameplay related
Real life should be in S-tier tbh
Nah. The devs are way too heavy-handed in constraining your actions. It's a soft fence with the whole "law enforcement" system and all, but it's still kinda bullshit.
When I started this video I did NOT expect to end up learning how to cook a flatbread pizza but my god am I gonna go to the store tomorrow to get the ingredients. I didn't know how simple it was!!! Thank u
What was the name of the game mentioned at 23:47? It sounded like therapedia but it's a nightmare to try and understand what you just said. Google had gone to shit so it just thinks I keep trying to type therapy.
Since it was several months ago, I supposed that you have found it already but just in case; the game is called "Peripeteia".
considering that emerging gameplay is like, the biggest reason to play mgs V instead of any other MGS, i'm surprised you don't consider it an imsim
but tbf i do understand that calling it a sandbox stealth game is better since a lot of funny stuff you can do is planned out by Kojima beforehand and doesn't always emerge organically
also i love the "it's just pathologic" line hehe
OH GOD "DO NOT RECITE THE DEEP MAGIC" LOVE IT HAHA
i love amnesia bunker so much already replayed it twice
If mgsv is an imsim then so is the farcry series. Mgsv really is just farcry 3 in third person with a wacky(er) story clunkily bolted on.
@@timhorton8085 fair enough
Every upload of yours is a delight, thank you for making your content
The ImSim genre boundaries continue to confuse me. By the logic stated by the titans of the genre(warren spector, harvey smith, raphael colantonio), the point is to have systemic ways of interacting with the world and solving problems. Set missions with an open playing field of possibilities for the player to get creative. This to me seems the main point of ImSims. Just immersive systemic games. I don't see why MGS V wouldn't be. I think stacking boxes should be forgotten as some indicator of an ImSim. I'd be glad to hear some perspectives.
I think it just means that the world you interact with feels "real", not in a realistic way, but regarding suspension of disbelief.
Blood West is marginal at best. You kill monsters with guns and melee weapons. Sometimes you sneak past them. That's it. If it's in the ImSim conversation then I think all stealth action games are in play: Generation Zero, Homefront Revolution, Hitman, the Assassin's Creed series, the Splintercell series, the Metro series, the Dying Lights, even Farcry 3-6 depending on difficulty and play style.
I also noticed that you disqualified the System Shock remake because it can't be "cheesed" like the original. But earlier you disqualified Bethesda's games because their emergence results from exploitation, i.e. cheese. That looks like a contradiction that places System Shock in and Skyrim out for the same reason. I think more work needs to be done to distinguish good cheese from bad cheese.
Good list, though!
I would argue that The Evil Within should ne added in the borderline immersive sim tier, regarding how you are supposed to improvise a lotta times, using environmental traps and chaining mechanics together to cheese the enemies. Aswell as the crossbow that gives you so many options to approach encounters.
Ive heard a lot how people described the evil within as a survival horror game that behaves (at least partly) like an immersive sim
the best example as to why morrowind is not an immersive sim is because it has so many quests that you have to do one thing specifically and it doesnt work right eg you are supposed to hide a bone in someones chest next to their bed, but they never go to sleep, so the only way it can be done is if you are invisible.
Morrowind is an RPG not an immersive sim. This list & the one before it just arent that good for this reason.
If we go down that road, every RPG ever is an Immersive Sim as well, because it puts you on the shoes of the protagonist.
So we have to define the term 'Immersive Sim', so as not to get any confusion:
Immersive Sims for the most part are First Person games (for more immersiveness), that employ Simulation Systems (Systems that resemble/simulate real world activities), have open-ended gameplay (its your choice how to proceed) and also have emergent gameplay (meaning gameplay that emerges beyond what it was designed by the developers, example by placing mines on the walls & then climbing on them to reach a ledge. If it doesnt break the simulation/real life too much, then this is emergent gameplay).
That means that Morrowind or BG3 isnt an immersive Sim, but simply RPGs with immersive elements.
@@GeoGyfSo, is Spelunky an Imsim?
@@edgepixel8467 Spelunky is a 2d platformer/exploration/roguelike game with procedural levels.
It has no/very limited story, the mission structure is basically non-existent (just dig deeper, get more treasure). There is not much realism in Spelunky, there are a lot of things for the sake of gameplay/fun/etc.
It has more things in common with sandbox games than imsims.
I am unsure what Baldur's Gate 3 is doing in the ImSims... I mean, it's BG3 and game is GOTY but it's an RPG after all, just made with the approach "Let's emulate what TTRPG players can do in their game behind the table" kinda
Its not even an ImSim its a CRPG, it shouldn't be there at all.
As a first-time viewer I DID NOT expect the video to turn into a COOKING RECIPE out of nowhere
While I disagree with the rationale behind excluding Fear and Hunger from ImSim, I greatly respect your choice to not play it. Wonderful list even though my boy EYE still in the 'Eurojank Blackhole'.
I feel you need to play it to truly judge if it's a ImSim or not but I can understand the content might not be his cup of tea.
Godly tier list. Keep up the good work!
The Dark Project is underrated
whats wrong with fear and hunger? I respect your opinion but am genuinely curious.
He’s mentioned before that he doesn’t want to touch or talk about it due to the extreme content, which fair enough it’s not meant for everyone at all.
Did you watch the video? Don't respect this guy's opinions, they're trash.
@kennethruskin2710 I've unsubbed recently because I don't enjoy his content anymore so I do kinda agree. But then again we are entitled to our own opinions lol
House Party never seems to be on peoples' imsim radars despite having so much emphasis on player freedom and systems driven emergent gameplay. It's also neat that it's an imsim where the main focus isn't violence. House Party deserves to be on B tier
Baldurs Gate 3 an immersive sim?
lolol
One thing about only occasionally watching your videos is being surprised there's a cooking segment in (at least some of) them, followed by me enjoying that section
23:47 it would be nice if you put the name of the game on screen if it's unorthodox
I think it's "Peripeteia", judging from someone else's comment.
@@kasane1337 yeah, I found it by using trial and error by looking at cutoff imagine in the tier list.
Stoked for Fortune's Run.
Where is Hitman: World of Assassination? Each level is a sandbox that you get to solve absolutely however you want. It feels back-to-back like modern Deus Ex.
so whats your problem with fear and hunger
what does BG3 do differently that fallout new vegas doesn't, to make bg3 an imsim and fnv not? you said its only choices obsidian allows but so is for bg3 you can only make choices they thought of allowing, fnv just like bg3 lets you kill everything, both let you talk out of situations, both have forced fights where talking inst an option, both have ways of fighting. is it truly only because in bg3 i can literately stack crates and shoot down from them? well i can stand on rocks, cars, or stack shopping carts in fallout so now would that make it considerable? i know what an imsim is is already a blurry line but I've watched a good handful of yours and many others videos on games considered imsims but i myself struggle to say when a game is or is not.
not that i would personally call them imsims, but what makes skyrim not an imsim and only an rpg? why would abermore (a game i haven't played or heard of before this video) be an imsim over skyrim, at a surface level skyrim does have (in theory) all the things most other imsims have, free movement, combat choice, some talking, choices have some affect. is it that not every quest in skyrim doesn't have ramifications on the entire world, where people respawn? is it that combat is janky at best? what is the disqualifying factor for it
and then what makes the first stalker game a borderline imsim but not its squeals which have everything the first game had but more added in? is it an imsim cant have clean shooter mechanics? could then the metro games be imsims? they are immersive games but i know they hold almost no choice but they do have the (obscure) morality mechanics that do have a change on the entire story, but is it because its more focus and basically only linear that prevents that being an imsim? then what about escape from tarkov? could that be an imsim? it aims to be immersive, does let you move around, and you can jump onto places that seem at first impossible to get onto, but does it being an online only game prevent it? or the lack of a story to follow?
i do understand that the subtle ways mechanics are handled drastically change what we would call a game, as no one would call "the beginner's guide" an fps just because you get a gun in it for 2 minutes, its only a walking sim. and i do know a game can just poorly execute on every idea or water them down but still be a part of the genre. but at what points do games even become an imsim
btw i love the cooking sections very nice mix up to your vids that are pleasant to watch. its a charming addition!
And no one answer to it... Well, im dont really capable to answer to that question, but i think that skyrim and morrowind are more RPG than Immersive Sim just because of level design. Look at Deus Ex, Thief and Dishonored. This games have good level design for lot of gameslyles. You have sneak routes, you have routes for stealth takedown and you have routes for slice and dice. In skyrim and morrowind you have just the slice and dice route, its not sneak, but if you have right skills, it can become sneak. Sum up: in immersive sim you can just go that way and be unnoticed and in rpg you should have right skills to stay unnoticed. If you dont understand what i tried to describe, then this is quick answer: Different level design.
i dont think that caves of qud is one but its pretty close, have you played?
Yep,qud is full to the brim of emergent gameplay. And is Kenshi an immersive sim by the really broad charlatan's wonder criteria ?
Given the inclusion of Baldur's Gate 3 on this list, would you consider including either of Larian's previous efforts (Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2) on future lists? I'm not sure they'd ever be worth doing videos on given both how extensively covered they were when released and given how long they are, but DOS2 ticks basically all the same boxes (I assume) BG3 ticks.
Also really enjoyed the vid!
This reminded me, even though it uses ASCII style graphics, Nethack has such freedom of approach and such a kitchen sink of corner cases allowed that it should come under the umbrella. "The DevTeam Thinks Of Everything" was coined as a description of just how deep this game is.
16:58
What is “Kitchen Sink Design”?
@3:27 "Adding some RPG elements to your boomer shooter does not make it an immersive sim."
Me earlier today discussing my indie multiplayer immersive sim game project: "this is boomer shooters revived"
LMFAO oops.
Great video. The only question that I have is "What constitutes an immersive sim in your opinion?". Its no wonder that people confuse what is and what isnt an im-sim, descriptions you can find on the internet are often vague and broad. So it would've been useful to identify what imsim implies and add it to the ground rules section.
I say this, because even being very familiar with the genre - I still found myself surprised that both Disco Elysium and Baldur's Gate 3 made it to the list, yet recieved so different a judgement. Always thought that if not an immersive sim - Disco Elysium was very close to it, but then thought Baldur's Gate 3 is just a great rpg, dnd made virtual.
This kind of sums up the issue people have with CW. I'd say it's almost universally agreed that the "first person" perspective is a core tenet of immersive sims (literally to be immersed in the character) - to the point where it was controversial that DXHR had third person camera angles for cover and conversations. Yet this is entirely optional according to CW's definition.
VtmB is widely considered one of the pillars of the imsim genre; it's open ended gameplay is responsive to the player's choices, gives them the freedom to approach most tasks in a variety of ways. But this is considered "borderline" because... well CW never actually says why, just handwaves it as "not having everything required of an imsim" (that most nebulous of defintions).
The arbitrariness of CW's definition of imsim is so comical that he classifies System Shock as an imsim and then in almost the same breath says the faithful remake of that game (which is near functionally identical) is absolutely not an imsim. I don't know how anyone could actually hold both of these opinions to be true at the same time, actual wild doublethink. It's like saying Zelda OOT 3DS remake isn't a Zelda game because it made the iron boots toggleable outside the menu.
I know this sounds like I'm just hating on CW, I genuinely like his content but his takes are wild and you definitely should get a second - sane - opinion elsewhere.
What is the difference between exploits and emergent gameplay?
An exploit is when you can do something because the game *isn't* functioning right. Emergent gameplay is when you can do something because the game *is* functioning right. If that doesn't make sense I can try a much more long-winded answer. :D
If you're calling Baldur's gate 3 an immersive sim....I wonder what your definition of Im Sim is.
There's lots on that list that aren't. Even Alien isolation might seem like one, but it's full of massively scripted moments required to progress the story. Eg you walk into a part of the station and it coincidentally blows up and you have to escape. And the fact the Alien has good unpredictable AI but the rest of the game is basically linear and there's barely any interacting systems other than the Alien. And even Skyrim and stuff is on there lol.
To this day he can't really give a valid reason for putting Thief 1 so low apart from it created save scumming. It's true that some missions are really bad, and thief 2 may be more consistent, but those first 5 missions are some of the best if not the best in gaming for me
23:46 Name of the game? Aripedia? Airopedia?
The Outer Worlds isnt a Bethesda RPG at all, really. It's more an old style Obsidian/Troika RPG in the vein of KOTOR 2/VTMB or, dare I say it, Fallout 1 or 2. There's nothing about it that makes it Bethesda style at all.
They didnt lean into "the guys that brought you New Vegas." You guys did. They put "from the guys who brought you Fallout (1)" in the ads because it was made by Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky. Yknow, same guys who invented Fallout and brought us VTMB. Projecting your expectations onto the devs, and then criticizing them for it, is very strange.
I certainly agree that btow and totk are not emsims but they're emergent gameplay is certainly intentional.
good good list, but you excluded one notable potential ImSim/borderline title in Teardown. Teardown is kinda weird cause it has no combat and leans into being like, an emergent physics puzzler / construction game, but the way the main campaign in structured with it's missions is Very ImSim-y tbh, it essentially is a narrative mission based structure that lets you play with the freedom of a builder game with real time physics. I think it's honestly most comparable to Shadows of Doubt, but with a focus on physics puzzling rather than mystery solving, in that it's an immersive sim that also wants to allot you the absolute freedom of a sandbox game.
whats the song playing at 14:50 please?
Man I follow your channel for imsim coverage but wtf how do you put mankind divided on S and Human Revolution on A lmaooooo
I still have huge beef for where thief 1 and 2 are, but well not everything is for everyone lmao. Cheers, charl and say hi for frisk for me.
Nice video! I have to try Cruelty Squad! And, of course, all of the other games. :D
My first contact with immersive sims was with Arx Fatalis.
Charls, I really don't like Discord all that much so I'll just drop this here as a long time viewer I really think you should give Hitman a try. The classics are great but so are the new ones (really anything other then Absolution). REALLY hope to see you do a video on Hitman next year.
Oh yeah totally. It's just this weird almost cosmic thing where I keep saying to myself "man I should really try some of the Hitman games" but something always happens and I never get around to it.
I tried arx fatalis once and couldn't make it out of the turorial because it kept crashing or hanging, not a great time
Have you tried installing the mod Arx Libertatis?
which game is on 23:47, i didnt understand what he is saying at all lol
peripeteia
I would at least put the SS remake in borderline. It had more emergent gameplay than BioShock did, at least for me.
Its more an Imsim than Dishonored: This whole Tierlist is honestly CAP after just that ranking, and I don't even play that many ImSims: But I can tell that if you consider Bioshock to not be an Imsim: Can you really then call Dishonored an A Tier Imsim then Shaft the System Shock Remake? That seems like pretty damn inconsistent logic to me.
"How dare you!" ......You know what that's fair. It was more of a COD campaign than a Bioshock game
I would argue that the Chaos system in Dishonored is one of its best features, with one simple caveat: The game seems perfectly balanced to play without using manual reloading. It's not a very hard game, and with a few tries you can usually do anything you want in any given situation. But if you only reload from checkpoints after dying, you are forced to own your mistakes. And this turns the Chaos system from a gimmick into a core gameplay element, because you're now always keeping a mental tally of "can I get away with it?" in mind. You'll find yourself making decisions like simply killing the target, rather than taking the non-lethal approach, because the latter has the potential of simply getting you into more trouble. Or knifing a guard because it's faster than choking, and you're sure you can do it before the other guard turns around. It made for an incredibly memorable playthrough of the game for me, and it felt like a real punch to the gut when, after a consistently Low Chaos run, I approached the ending to discover I had slipped into High Chaos. Despite my best efforts, people regarded me as a monster. When Samuel the boatman berated me on my actions, it felt like a real judgement. An unfair one. Because I tried, Samuel. I really, really tried. But did you all really expect to set a killer loose on the streets and him not to kill?
Ultimately what made it so satisfying is that it gives the game a real sense of your actions actually mattering. Not just the story actions scripted out for you, but everything you do. And it really informs all of your decisions in the game in a way that I found very compelling. Because now it's not a set of interconnected obstacles to overcome, but one big, meta-obstacle. For the two of you who might read this, if you haven't played the game this way, I highly recommend it.
19:03 Please explain what you mean by the "normification of Cruelty Squad"
No.
Month old reply, but I'm assuming he means the game getting mainstream attention(I.E. Big UA-camrs doing videos on it and bigger gaming outlets posting about it.) A niche game that somehow got really popular. Charlatan is just too lazy to type.
hes probably a hipster
Man, Ctrl Alt Ego is good but sorry it is missing so many things to make the real ultimate immsim... It lacks a good art direction, it lacks an interesting story, it lacks some gamefeel when it comes to action (action is part of immsim), etc...
I know that project zomboid isnt finished yet, and probably wont be done for a bit, but im curious about where you would rank it or if it would even classify as an immersive sim
Charl eating good on ImSims and having a lot on his plate is great news for us. Also we get great new recipes!