Okay I realize now I should take one of my replies about Fear and Hunger, copy it, and pin it here so people have a more fleshed out answer: It was mainly on twitter and also some people that kept trickling into the discord, but while I initially said I'd be open to doing a video about the Fear and Hunger after being asked, I changed my mind after realizing how flippantly it treats certain subject matters for edge points and additionally I take HUGE issue with how the creator tried to pass it off as being Berserk-inspired. The only way I could see the latter is if someone just looked at the most gruesome pictures from Berserk but never actually read the manga. These people did not take me saying 'actually never mind. I really don't like the stuff in this game and don't want to give it lip service' well at all. The last year has basically been every week or so someone coming into the discord or repeatedly @'ing my on Twitter asking for the game, me explaining for the umpteenth time that 'No, I object to the game and don't want anything to do with it', and then them taking it as if I'm the literal devil and pitching a fit at me. I've had some very negative experiences with the Fear and Hunger fandom this year and each one makes me want to make a video about the game even less. A Fear and Hunger video is never happening on this channel or on any platform I have. I know better than to ever let any fandom harass me into making a video about their thing because once that happens the first time, every fandom ever now knows that bullying you into making a video about their thing works and they will be relentless until you cave in again, and again, and again. Standing your ground is an important part of being a creator.
It is berserk inspired though, Even if it only took the gore which it clearly doesn't it would still be inspired by berserk. Just because some dumb people harass you doesn't mean you should be dismissive with a game and labeling it before attempting to understand it.
Look I know you mean well but I've noticed that a lot of folks who don't like my stance on something pull out that cheap "yOu JuSt DoN't UnDeRsTaNd." It's high school level gatekeeping. It's the perfect mental block against someone else's opinion by just saying they aren't familiar enough with something to render judgement and therefor all opinions you don't like are invalid. You don't need to dump dozens of hours into something to say, "I really don't like this and feels it mishandles things."
im personally a big fan of fear and hunger but i truly believet hat it is not for everyone and most people who are thinking about playing it i just tell not to, its not an easy game to get into and definetly not a pleasent one, though while the game does do a relatively poor job of tackling some of its adult themes, the sequel doesn't include nearly as much visually horrific scenes with simply reference's to the gruesomeness, but its not a game that everyone should play and if you dont want to play it theres nothign wrong with that the reason why people refer to it as an imm sim is that it does have some aspects like being able to use items or special skills to solve soluttions and the fact that alot of the game and combat is a big puzzle with lots of ways to solve it, while the game never really makes you colour in its lines i dont think its an immersive sim, but i also would like to say that if you are willing to push past the really uncomfrotable subjects there is a genuinely interesting, unique and at times fun experience, though im not saying you have to and its completely up to personal preference, though to most people id say just dont bother with fear and hunger
@@CharlatanWonder a decent chunk of the community are highschoolers who are edgy and heard its cool, never played it and just like to know about it. The game is super fucked up, i dont wanna list hte things that the game makes me feel are uncomfortable but i find this uncomfortableness intriguing and makes me want to delve deeper, if you do change your mind Termina handles the sensitive subjects with alot more care and is in general a much more accessible experience, but seriously, dont take the people who are yelling at you to play it as people who have actually played the game. Some might but most dont, despite it only being like £4 or something, the people getting upset at you for saying it mishandles things are the ones that dont understand the game and dont have the maturity to get that a game that covers the topics it covers is only for very certain audiences
if you like bg3 try the other games larin has made dos2 and dos are almost on par with bg3 but sadly you can not get on the boxs you stack in those games but the rest of it is there
@@TheMC1102 I get that, but it sounded like you were saying they should be in the "Borderline" tier. Which is something I strongly disagree. If that wasn't what you were saying, never mind!
I really don't understand your reasoning of the original System Shock being in A tier while the remake isn't considered an immersive sim at all. looking back at your review of the remake you didn't seem to hold anything close to that opinion, just that some things changed and some things improved in terms of being more like an immersive sim
He doesn't seem to have any clear idea of what an imsim is supposed to be or some firm definition in mind, just what he likes. I mean ostensibly Cyberpunk 2077 is almost as much of an imsim as Deus Ex, and I'm not saying that makes it a great game mind you, but that the mechanics of the 'imsim' Ion Storm and Looking Glass games have trickled down into the mainstream and have been there for a long time now. Even Ubisoft made use of the general concepts in their games, both the Far Cry sequels to the Crytek original and the more recent Watchdogs series. In some regards it was perhaps never much of an useful category, niche or genre, but rather more of a buzzword by Specter to hype up how realistic games were getting in terms of simulating things, which then went on to become standardised. And if the term was quickly growing meaningless in the industry then it got worse when opinionated pseuds like Charlatan started using it as a term for 'games I like'.
That's not meant to denigrate the S tier quality of TDP as an experience/game but merely as an ImSim there are better examples from more dedicated games. Consider that TDP straddles multiple genre's much like BG3 and as such - it's a bit of a surprise that it appears here at all.
@@jamesducharme1711 Probably because it has a crafting system which enables multiple approaches better than an inherent stealth game, thus a better ImSim example. Anyway why are you asking this? Ultimately it's not my list but I have the maturity to see why something may have been chosen over something else. If it was a stealth list no doubt TDP would be S++ Tier - it should be. Ask the Channel owner it's their opinion. Stop it with the school playground bickering.
@@TheT0nedude TDP and SS2 were the first immersive sims to use any real emergent problem solving (you can light torches on fire in thief (which was not an established mechanic) attract zombies to kill guards and vice versa or you can try to blow up locked doors and in case of ss2 crush a robot with an elevator) if we are going to use systematic game structure as an excuse to shit on a beloved franchise thief series just ain't the one especially considering how old the games (and their engine) are. No I think charlatan just doesn't like the games (notice im not trying to argue im just trying to explain why I think systematic game design is not a good reason (which wasn't your argument you just assumed that this is the reason for charlatan's ranking) for a horror game to be a better imsim than thief)
I hope Bloodlines 2 and Shadow of a Doubt turn out to be GREAT GAMES. Cyberpunk 2077 is the most recent great one, and up there with Deus Ex HR in best games. The funniest new sim games are those 1st person indies where the player shops, drives vehicles, gambles, hunts, farms, etc. but all designed pretty badly into one game, haha. 😄
If Baldur's Gate 3 can be considered an immersive sim, then their Divinity: Original Sin games (especially the second one) should also be considered as they are also quite open and creative.
Yeah but divinity and divinity 2 are WAY more locked down than bg3 I love divinity and its even better than bg3 in some ways but i dont think it hits imsim level of freedom.
And the original Divine Divinity. And Ultima VII. Pleb discovers the mutated offspring of Richard Garriott and thinks that the Deus Ex formula finally arrived to RPGs. His BG3 review will be terrible.
Man CTRL ALT Ego really didn't mesh with me at all when I played it, but you put it above Deus Ex. Maybe I'll give it arry some time and see some of what you do in it. If nothing else, that was a brave listing and I've got to respect that
CTRL ALT EGO is a game I felt was middling as a game but amazing as an immersive sim if that makes any sense. It starts slow. Far too slow and restricted for too long. Took me probably about 7 hours to reach the point where it started feeling like a proper immersive sim but then the next 10 hours were great. Since all skills are valid for progressing using a different playstyle the shotgun skill is bit of a trap since it turns the game into a shooter and you don't really need to use anything else. Amazingly well done immersive sim but a bit flawed as a game.
I had a hard time keeping track of YOUR definition of an immersive sim, by proper definition you discredited half these games because "you have to go through linear designs" okay then you're saying games with multiple branching paths and rpg mechanics is an immersive sim but then you go on to say games like stalker or cyberpunk arent immersive sims despite having all the previously states pre-requisites to your definition. Overall I like your video but it'd be helpful to have you break down what an immersive sim is to you prior to listing the games because trying to keep track through the video it felt like you kept changing the rules of "what an immersive sim is" because of your personal experience with the game (nothing wrong with disliking a game either but that doesnt make it excluded from a genre because you dont like the shared similarities). Not trying to hate just trying to point out where I kept getting lost on the topic.
alright going a little further, you need a psych eval. The hypocrisy in this video is insane, "system shock is an immersive sim, but the remake which is the same game isnt". You're a troglodyte dude just say you don't like some games rather than discrediting what they are.
@@Mystic_HatterNot that I disagree with you that a lot of the games he discredits here as not being immersive sims do deserve to be on the list over say, Amnesia: The Bunker if we’re going by his own definition (e.g. Tears of the Kingdom) but the whiplash between “not trying to hate, like your video” to “on second thought you are a troglodyte who needs a psych eval” is funny AF lmao
The Outer Worlds isnt a Bethesda RPG at all, really. It's more an old style Obsidian/Troika RPG in the vein of KOTOR 2/VTMB or, dare I say it, Fallout 1 or 2. There's nothing about it that makes it Bethesda style at all. They didnt lean into "the guys that brought you New Vegas." You guys did. They put "from the guys who brought you Fallout (1)" in the ads because it was made by Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky. Yknow, same guys who invented Fallout and brought us VTMB. Projecting your expectations onto the devs, and then criticizing them for it, is very strange.
I think once I grind through Bg3, GTFO, and Bomb Rush Cyberfunk i'm gonna pick up Ctrl Alt Ego and Acid Knife if they're both released. The latter probably won't be an imsim but it's borderline in the craziest, best ways. I honestly wish Powerhoof sacrificed all the resources for The Drifter because I know it'll be mediocre in comparison, but at the same time I do understand their choices.
Eyepatchwolf mentioned in a short sentence in his video on Fear & Hunger that during gameplay he found out it was an immersive sim, i think that's where this is coming from
You could say that tho, genres are just a vain attempt to categorize something that is becoming harder and harder to categorize. And it feels like he kind of is gatekeeping the term a little but it's still a good video.
Yeah, if I recall correctly, I think he mentioned that the design reminded him of an immersive sim more than of a typical RPG, and given all the content I've consumed I think that's totally fair. I'm not sure that he would necessarily call it an imsim by strict or clear criteria, though; the point was more that it shares some of the ethos of immersive sim design with rewarding out-of-the-box thinking, stacking different fleshed-out mechanics and systems, etc. Part of me almost thinks there should be a separate category for stuff like that - the new Zelda games certainly come to mind, and I'm sure there are many others, as well.
@seansachs6105 i agree with the guy commenting before in that charlatan is kinda gatekeeping here. And ich am not defining fear & hunger, havent played it yet only seen gameplay and the eyepatch video. But eyepatchwolf said: This is not an RPG!? This is an immersive sim! Not quoting here btw 😄 And that sentence. Even if he didn't want to put the game into a genre brings This şort of misconception for people saying he should review it 😄
@@sultanbaba1230 A good western CRPG tries to reward out-of-the-box thinking, though. They're supposed to allow for multiple, distinct approaches to its challenges based on character builds and in-game player choices. The point of these games is to make the player feel that their choices/approach affects how the game progresses for them, makes it unique/personalized for them even. Even if these games didn't have 'emergent' or physics-based mechanics, or processed generation of levels/items/etc., their developers would try to think of everything their players may want to do in game, and accommodate for it, often rewarding the player for trying some silly or obscure thing. What eventually became called the "immersive sim" was Deus Ex using both the western RPG's multiple/custom solution design (in distinct skills/weapons and in quest resolution) and the physics-based emergent gameplay of its 3D engine, to allow for genuinely novel solutions from its players. I wouldn't call isometric CRPGs like Baldur's Gate 3 immersive sims though, since they're the parent/progenitor of the im sim: developers like Larian are just updating them with the emergent mechanics that are possible now. If earlier RPGs could've had stacking crates, oil slicks, pushing NPCs off cliffs, etc., they definitely would have, and they'd only call it a technical evolution of the genre.
I'd say Fear and Hunger is 100% Survival Horror. Eventually you're remembering routes to avoid enemies/ balancing dwindling resources and it clicks that it's survival horror. Termina especially.
I don't feel Amnesia - The Bunker as an immersive sim. Opening a door forceful and loud with a gun or opening a door forceful and loud with a brick aren't really different approaching to overcoming an obstacle. It's immersive, I give you that, but its options are way too limited.
Can't believe you did Dark Messiah dirty like that! It deserves way more credit for having some of the best FPS melee combat ever seen, even by todays standards.
i replayed the game literally days before this vid and idk, i feel like people really exaggerate the zombie/spider thing. theres not that many of them at all, but annoyance sticks to memory i guess
Have you played it in recent years though? I replayed it earlier this year, and it's pretty damn rough and the combat is far from as good as I remembered it being.
@@emdeo It was so much more than kick kick kick. Directional melee attacks, pick up any physics object and throw it, parries, combat staffs, elemental effects, synergies with magic effects, enemies getting fatigued after taking damage to the point where they start crawling around on the floor. These intricate systems were miles ahead of Bethesdas pisspoor attempts at melee combat, for example.
Real Prey (2006) > Arkane's Cooms(h)ock 2017. Let's be real here, System Shock was good for the time but SS2 was straight into the toilet and a terrible sequel to boot, while everything that came after both from Arkane and Irrational was irredeemable garbage.
Nah. The devs are way too heavy-handed in constraining your actions. It's a soft fence with the whole "law enforcement" system and all, but it's still kinda bullshit.
When it comes to classifying individual games as either "ImSim", "Not-ImSim" or "Borderline", I think I pretty agree with you 100%. You're spot on. My only disagreement is with BS1 being in the borderline tier. It should just be moved to "Not ImSim". However, when it comes to the scores given to the actual immersive sims, oh boy! There's some *really* crazy ones in there. Some of them almost made me openly weep. But that's totally OK of course, to each their own.
The ImSim genre boundaries continue to confuse me. By the logic stated by the titans of the genre(warren spector, harvey smith, raphael colantonio), the point is to have systemic ways of interacting with the world and solving problems. Set missions with an open playing field of possibilities for the player to get creative. This to me seems the main point of ImSims. Just immersive systemic games. I don't see why MGS V wouldn't be. I think stacking boxes should be forgotten as some indicator of an ImSim. I'd be glad to hear some perspectives.
@@RayhanKabir-o3vmost store bought tomato sauces aren't all that good and Prego is one of the "bottom of the barrel" brands. For a long time I was using that store bought tomato sauce for all my cooking, but I recently started making my own sauce at home. It's really easy and it's just as cheap if not even more cheap than buying store bought sauce.
Great video, I completely agree with your opinion on Ctrl Alt Ego, I knew I was onto something special when I tried the demo and I bought the game right after :D
One could argue that Bioshock 1 and 2 are immersive sims given the definition of imm sim can sometimes vary and isn’t as well defined as other genres Bioshock 2 has all the same features that 1 does but with improved gameplay. The only thing it lacks is the U-Invent. Disqualifying it due to “feel” doesn’t make sense. As for VTMB, that is arguably more of an RPG but could go into either. For the System Shock Remake, it’s unclear what exactly was removed to make it disqualified in your eyes as while things were changed the flow of gameplay is largely the same.
Its so stupid how he can consider Dishonored as an Imsim, yet System Shock Remake when it barely removes a few, if rather negligable things is suddenly not an Imsim: Totally cap.
I'd say Bioshock 2 would barely make it, mostly due to the level design being a bit more streamlined and not as open. That being said, Bioshock 2 is fucking amazing.
I am unsure what Baldur's Gate 3 is doing in the ImSims... I mean, it's BG3 and game is GOTY but it's an RPG after all, just made with the approach "Let's emulate what TTRPG players can do in their game behind the table" kinda
considering that emerging gameplay is like, the biggest reason to play mgs V instead of any other MGS, i'm surprised you don't consider it an imsim but tbf i do understand that calling it a sandbox stealth game is better since a lot of funny stuff you can do is planned out by Kojima beforehand and doesn't always emerge organically also i love the "it's just pathologic" line hehe
Love this list! And this channel is one of my go-tos for discovering new immersive sims. I have found some absolute gems through you, many thanks! One overlooked game I feel deserves a mention is Neon Struct by Minor Key. It's basically Thief but set in a Deus Ex-like setting. Very minimalistic but worth a playthrough. Two future imsims that might also be worth a look are Skin Deep and Core Decay. I was also eagerly-anticipating Consortium: The Tower but haven't heard anything about it for quite a while now. Can't wait for Peripeteia and Shadow's of Doubt's 1.0!
Thanks! and while I haven't heard of Consortium yet, I'll admit it was an intentional choice to not include Core Decay in the honorable mentions because that game's been almost entirely radio silent for a couple years now. I have no idea what's going on at 3D Realms/the dev but there isn't enough activity to justify putting it among games you can expect to come out in the next year.
i really respect charlatan wonder for putting a horror game in which the only imsim element that it has is the fact that you can break a wooden door in multiple ways on S tier while other genre defining games are on C tire i really do respect and admire his boldness
While I disagree with the rationale behind excluding Fear and Hunger from ImSim, I greatly respect your choice to not play it. Wonderful list even though my boy EYE still in the 'Eurojank Blackhole'.
This reminded me, even though it uses ASCII style graphics, Nethack has such freedom of approach and such a kitchen sink of corner cases allowed that it should come under the umbrella. "The DevTeam Thinks Of Everything" was coined as a description of just how deep this game is.
House Party never seems to be on peoples' imsim radars despite having so much emphasis on player freedom and systems driven emergent gameplay. It's also neat that it's an imsim where the main focus isn't violence. House Party deserves to be on B tier
This video expanded my steam wishlist. I'm especially interested in ctrl alt ego. Thank you for letting me know what's good and worth supporting the developers with
Sorry but this list was pretty shit. why even have games on the list of Immersive sims if you are just gonna put them in the list of 'not immersive sim'. Also i feel the things were ranked pretty poorly in general
Charl: little chef trick we like to use: add your flavor oil (bacon grease, butter, etc) and then add olive oil or grapeseed oil to raise the smoke point. This way you get the best of both worlds. Love your stuff man, keep up the righteous work! 🎉
Tears of the Kingdom only 'accidentally' has elements of emergent gameplay? The fuck? lol The whole game is built around emergent gameplay and the idea that gamers would find new and interesting ways to use the mechanics in game to accomplish different things. That was very literally the entire premise behind how the devs wanted to improve on Breath of the Wild(which already had a fair bit of this same identity). I really dont get how Tears of the Kingdom could NOT be an immersive sim by pretty much every definition you've used.
I can buy it not being an imsim, but it’s certainly more of an imsim than Bioshock (and for that matter, so is FNV, System Shock Remake and probably a bunch of others in the “not an imsim” category)
Baldur's Gate and immersive sim? lol Once saw a let's play. The guy arrives at this green woman in the cage sorrounded by enemies. Thinks to himself: I will sneak up to them and attack them. Attacks them. Cut. Conversation with them starts, as if he just approached them. Thinks to himself: Ok, let's do it different then. Speaks to them peacefully. Conversation ends peacefully. Game remembers he attacked them. Combat starts. When I saw that I laughed my ass off about all those marketing lies about being able to do everything and the game considering it. :D
I’ve learned that what I’m really looking for are more games with immersive hub worlds instead of open world or sim. Deus Ex, VTMB, KOTOR, Mass Effect, Jade Empire, Ratchet and Clank. They’re better structured experiences, but still give you the feeling of exploration.
Amazing video, I've been following you for a while now and I've been wanting an in depth guide as to which immersive sim i should play first (I havent played any yet) and this video helps a TON with guiding me through that
Great video. The only question that I have is "What constitutes an immersive sim in your opinion?". Its no wonder that people confuse what is and what isnt an im-sim, descriptions you can find on the internet are often vague and broad. So it would've been useful to identify what imsim implies and add it to the ground rules section. I say this, because even being very familiar with the genre - I still found myself surprised that both Disco Elysium and Baldur's Gate 3 made it to the list, yet recieved so different a judgement. Always thought that if not an immersive sim - Disco Elysium was very close to it, but then thought Baldur's Gate 3 is just a great rpg, dnd made virtual.
This kind of sums up the issue people have with CW. I'd say it's almost universally agreed that the "first person" perspective is a core tenet of immersive sims (literally to be immersed in the character) - to the point where it was controversial that DXHR had third person camera angles for cover and conversations. Yet this is entirely optional according to CW's definition. VtmB is widely considered one of the pillars of the imsim genre; it's open ended gameplay is responsive to the player's choices, gives them the freedom to approach most tasks in a variety of ways. But this is considered "borderline" because... well CW never actually says why, just handwaves it as "not having everything required of an imsim" (that most nebulous of defintions). The arbitrariness of CW's definition of imsim is so comical that he classifies System Shock as an imsim and then in almost the same breath says the faithful remake of that game (which is near functionally identical) is absolutely not an imsim. I don't know how anyone could actually hold both of these opinions to be true at the same time, actual wild doublethink. It's like saying Zelda OOT 3DS remake isn't a Zelda game because it made the iron boots toggleable outside the menu. I know this sounds like I'm just hating on CW, I genuinely like his content but his takes are wild and you definitely should get a second - sane - opinion elsewhere.
Hot take, but I don't think System Shock 2 is also an ImSim. No box stacking, no in-depth simulation, stealth is not viable and I can't think of an example of emergent gameplay in there from the top of my head. All it's got is kitchen sink design, "immersive" part of ImSim genre and a rich history with people working on actual ImSims. I'm fully prepared to get a lot of flack for this take, so come at me with counter-arguments at the ready, I'm more then prepared to change my mind when presented with new evidence. = )
Nah man, I love System Shock 2 but you’re right, it’s an action/RPG hybrid that’s borderline just like Bioshock and doesn’t even meet the definition of an immersive sim if you’re even somewhat strict about it.
If Thief is an immersive sim, I would argue Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is too. You can win without anyone detecting you and with zero knockouts, and the levels while linear are pretty open.
Given the inclusion of Baldur's Gate 3 on this list, would you consider including either of Larian's previous efforts (Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2) on future lists? I'm not sure they'd ever be worth doing videos on given both how extensively covered they were when released and given how long they are, but DOS2 ticks basically all the same boxes (I assume) BG3 ticks. Also really enjoyed the vid!
morrowind probably doesn't count as an immersive sim if only for its lack of any real physics but it's a lot closer than you give it credit for its not just like... a meme game where you do the potion loop. there's a lot of mechanical depth to its interactions and its simply not just an exploit game. id argue it does for character progression what immersive sims do for environmental interaction. for example: my first ever character was a spear-using light armor user with a bunch of tertiary magic skill. the character was far from optimal and i had no knowledge/goals with regards to artifacts or best-in-slot shit. nonetheless, i was able to overcome the bridge wizard and other early game hurdles partly by consciously choosing what fights to not take, and partly by smartly investing in training. without having to majorly grind or do a dumb exploit, i was able to turn a subpar character who was spread too thin into a strong fighter that was respected by the residents of the island. obviously, that's not the same thing as a game where you can stack boxes or kick down doors, but i think theres a pretty neat comparison to be drawn. i was able to eke out my own solution to my character's inherent issues oh, and by the way- morrowind's doors get pretty close to immersive sim tier. you can't bash them down like in daggerfall, but theres a lot of depth to unlocking locks and disarming magical traps, all without the stupid little minigames of later entries. lockpicking is more or less the deus ex system, using the security skill, and probing traps is the same the alternative solutions are to: -rng to force the lock -just tank the trap -use different tiers of/custom versions of/enchanted casts of the unlock spell effect on the lock -use a telekinesis effect to just pop the trap from outside of its range the latter 2 are my favorite im writing this with the assumption that you haven't played morrowind, given that your phrasing seemed to dismiss it as a game defined by the potion loop? but if you've played it, i guess you already know all this haha in which case i guess i hope someone else sees this and decides to try morrowind to reiterate, none of this makes morrowind an immersive sim, i just wanted to talk about some of its aspects that i think scratch a similar itch in terms of depth
although i will say alchemy and finding the mudcrab merchant did end up doing some strange things to my wallet at higher levels. it turns out you don't *need* The Meme Loop to be able to eventually make some pretty good potions both for effect and sell price. ofc, it did take a while to get there!
i think its fair calling zelda not an imsim , but its emergent gameplay is definetely not "accidental" i have no clue how u took that away from the newr zelda games
There are multiple interviews where the devs at Nintendo bring up seeing all the crazy exploits people figured out with Breath of the Wild and they decided to go in a direction that encouraged it even more. To say it’s “accidental” is definitely strange, and honestly except for being open world and third person the game is even more an imsim than something like Bioshock.
I think the reason people think that Disco Elysium and New Vegas are imsims is because they have the freedom of choice in dialogue, with consequences, and all of that, they are good role playing games that allow you to think outside of the box, wich is similar to how imsims let you do have freedom of choice and creativity in gameplay, very similar concepts but totally different things One is in the story and the other in gameplay
Its more an Imsim than Dishonored: This whole Tierlist is honestly CAP after just that ranking, and I don't even play that many ImSims: But I can tell that if you consider Bioshock to not be an Imsim: Can you really then call Dishonored an A Tier Imsim then Shaft the System Shock Remake? That seems like pretty damn inconsistent logic to me.
One thing about only occasionally watching your videos is being surprised there's a cooking segment in (at least some of) them, followed by me enjoying that section
I'll do better. Thief 2014 still looks great to this day and whatever sorcery Eidos-Montréal used to get their version of the Unreal Engine to not age like milk is worthy of praise, and it is also a much better stealth game than Dishonored could ever hope to be. It's also one of the last structured stealth games since every mainstream stealth game afterwards fell for the open world meme and that entirely destroyed designed challenges.
Dishonored 1 is my favorite stealth game, Thief is slightly lower than that in my rankings but I see the similarities. Thief does look really good still, magic I tell ya.
AccursedFarms has a list of (general) games in his dynamic website. You could do this with this instead of making a video every 3-4 years. It's easier to update continuously. But I prefer this tbh. As for Fear and Hunger, good. Don't bother with something you dislike and whose people dislike you for no good reason. Also, don't make long writeups for people who will just ignore it. 6:52 "no matter what I say, or how I rank Thief Deadly Shadows, the players are gonna be sad" amazing quote. 8:45 missed opportunity to say Dishonorific!!! 12:16 peak american meal. 12:59-13:04 "just because a restaurant has a steak, doesn't mean it's a steakhouse" well said. Of many things, even beyond games. 15:23 the word you're looking for is "abandoned" 18:53 I remember when all that cruelty squad was, was the latest darling of "le cappie talisman bad" breadtube people. Who see money signs everywhere. It was tagged as such on steam, thank god it's gone now. 24:33 Ultra Doodoo is my favorite DOOM shooter difficulty. 27:21 🤣🤣🤣. Nice one. Thanks, I always enjoy highlighting people's ignorance and hindsight bias.
MY HEART FELL TO THE GROUND WHEN U SAID THE SYSTEM SHOCK REMAKE IS NOT AN IMMERSIVE SIM. BUT I WAS ALSO OVER THE MOON WHEN U PUT PREY TO S TIER. I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT PREY. TO BAD WE ARE NEVER GOING TO GET A SEQUEL TO IT
My mind keeps going back to Amnesia: The Bunker. It really is a masterpiece. I hope they make a sequel which 100% could just be more of the same and I'd hog it up. Really the ties to the old amnesia games were a thing that kinda dragged the story and mystery.
I would argue that the Chaos system in Dishonored is one of its best features, with one simple caveat: The game seems perfectly balanced to play without using manual reloading. It's not a very hard game, and with a few tries you can usually do anything you want in any given situation. But if you only reload from checkpoints after dying, you are forced to own your mistakes. And this turns the Chaos system from a gimmick into a core gameplay element, because you're now always keeping a mental tally of "can I get away with it?" in mind. You'll find yourself making decisions like simply killing the target, rather than taking the non-lethal approach, because the latter has the potential of simply getting you into more trouble. Or knifing a guard because it's faster than choking, and you're sure you can do it before the other guard turns around. It made for an incredibly memorable playthrough of the game for me, and it felt like a real punch to the gut when, after a consistently Low Chaos run, I approached the ending to discover I had slipped into High Chaos. Despite my best efforts, people regarded me as a monster. When Samuel the boatman berated me on my actions, it felt like a real judgement. An unfair one. Because I tried, Samuel. I really, really tried. But did you all really expect to set a killer loose on the streets and him not to kill? Ultimately what made it so satisfying is that it gives the game a real sense of your actions actually mattering. Not just the story actions scripted out for you, but everything you do. And it really informs all of your decisions in the game in a way that I found very compelling. Because now it's not a set of interconnected obstacles to overcome, but one big, meta-obstacle. For the two of you who might read this, if you haven't played the game this way, I highly recommend it.
in Morrowind you can click on the world item and drag it in your inventory (very immersive) and you fly (very sim). Also for Tears of the Kingdom - it's precisely because it has moments of "accidental" immersive gameplay that it can be considered immersive because it's not scripted but relies entirely on the game's systems, though I just call it a sandbox at this point
In my opinion those immersive game suggestions you got mostly consist of not actually immersive sim genre games because people might misunderstood the term of immersive sim. I myself before this video actually thought that immersive simulator is Skyrim, Fallout games because you immerse into the world/characters and it looks believable actually making you full immerse into the world, but apperantly its not the case xd
I do have a question about Fear and Hunger. I've been watching Charl for a while now, but have I missed some development where Charlatan boy talks about F&H? Because the way he speaks about it in the video sounds like "I don't like it, I don't care for it, stop fucking pestering me about it." has he ever spoken about the game somewhere? (note: I respect Fear and Horny but never really did play it, so this is just my curiosity speaking)
It was mainly on twitter and also some people that kept trickling into the discord, but while I initially said I'd be open to doing a video about the Fear and Hunger after being asked, I changed my mind after realizing how flippantly it treats certain subject matters for edge points and additionally I take HUGE issue with how the creator tried to pass it off as being Berserk-inspired. The only way I could see the latter is if someone just looked at the most gruesome pictures from Berserk but never actually read the manga. These people did not take me saying 'actually never mind. I really don't like the stuff in this game and don't want to give it lip service' well at all. The last year has basically been every week or so someone coming into the discord or repeatedly @'ing my on Twitter asking for the game, me explaining for the umpteenth time that 'No, I object to the game and don't want anything to do with it', and then them taking it as if I'm the literal devil and pitching a fit at me. I've had some very negative experiences with the Fear and Hunger fandom this year and each one makes me want to make a video about the game even less. A Fear and Hunger video is never happening on this channel or on any platform I have. I know better than to ever let any fandom harass me into making a video about their thing because once that happens the first time, every fandom ever now knows that bullying you into making a video about their thing works and they will be relentless until you cave in again, and again, and again. Standing your ground is an important part of being a creator.
@@CharlatanWonder Fucking amen chief! That is not answer, that's a FUCKING ACE of a statement! Thank you for clarification, chief. Kinda reminds of that one time some random New Vegas wanker LITERALLY commented on your unrelated video to spout their nonsense, because they didn't have enough mental capacity to get the hint as to why you turned the comments off to your New Vegas vid.
What was the name of the game mentioned at 23:47? It sounded like therapedia but it's a nightmare to try and understand what you just said. Google had gone to shit so it just thinks I keep trying to type therapy.
Completely insane dishonored 2 is not on the top 5. It's a generational leap beyond dishonored 1 and storywise it's probably the most reactive immersive sim, like Corvo and Emily storylines have 3 or 4 major developments for each, you can play dishonored 2 ten times and it can be a significantly different game each time.
Did you miss the part about ImSim being defined by reactive *gameplay* rather than reactive *story?* This is why "Disco Elysium" for example was disqualified. ;)
@@Archangelm127 And dishonored 2 lacks gameplay? it double down everything from the original. You can play Dishonored 2 from the low chaos stealth only who refused the mark of the outsider (no powers, it's basically a thief run of dishonored 2) all the way to super powered kill everyone run.
@@elviskleber10 Go rewatch CW's video about defining what an ImSim actually is; he does a much better job of defining what "emergent gameplay" means than I ever could. :)
@@Archangelm127 Dishonored 2 is literally big dishonored 1, I don't understand what's the argument here is. How is the sequel that makes everything better worse than the original?
@@elviskleber10 Sorry, my bad. I got this mixed up in my head with some other conversations in other threads. Okay, so the objections to DH2 vs DH1 that I heard stemmed from narrative, as in the actual story rather than its flow. I can see the objection to having the choice of protagonist, though I'm not sure I agree. Also CW said that the overworld segments were too extensive for his taste. I flatly disagree on that point. But it's not my list. :D
I have backed two games on Kickstarter, both around the same time. Kingdom Come Deliverance. Wow! Talk about a huge win! Amazing game imo. Sequel's coming out this year, too, and I can't wait. And the other one was Underworld Ascendant...
Deux Ex: Invisible War is an underrated game and doesn't deserve to be at D tier, and doesn't deserve most of the hate it gets. I definitely think that their choice to simplify so many of the things which made the original great was a mistake, and their prioritization of high fidelity graphics and lighting effects definitely hurt their ability to make large and rich areas, but it still ended up being a very good game. It was very disappointing for fans of the original who wanted a more sophisticated version of the same thing, but people who were new to the franchise actually really liked it, and I personally think that it's actually a very well made and engaging game which holds up very well to other games of the same generation. It was dumbed down, sure, but it was actually a really polished game which has aged much, much better than most other games from the same generation. It wasn't exactly what I wanted it to be, but it was a very well rounded and polished game which succeeded in being what the devs wanted it to be, and I personally think that the writing and the over-arching narrative of the game is relatively well executed, though it definitely didn't live up to the original. By contrast, I would say that Deus Ex: Human Revolution is actually a worse game, especially relative to its time period. In my opinion, Human Revolution actually has more flaws in its design than Invisible War has, and strays even further from the design concepts which made the original Deus Ex so great. In addition to how much more powerful the hardware was, Human Revolution had the benefit of so many more years of game history to learn from than Invisible War had had, and ended up having significantly less freedom of choice than Invisible War. Human Revolution ended up doing an excellent job of the action and stealth gameplay for the most part, and the graphics, artistic direction, a lot of the voice acting, and some of the writing is of very high quality, but a lot of the writing is terrible, and the broader story and theme of Human Revolution is, for the most part, totally absurd and impossible to take seriously, and shows ZERO self awareness of how absurd it is either. The original Deus Ex was actually never intended to be taken entirely seriously, though I think its story did end up coming off significantly more seriously than the game designers had originally intended it to be.
How about Outward? In my mind if you can defend Ultima Underworld as an Immersive Sim to be logcial consistense you would have to include Outward as well. It has decaying food and alchemy ingredients like underworld, weapon durability. Dynamic light, the dengueons are dark. But you can either wield a tourch, hold a lantern, strap lantern to better backpacks, create a floating light ball with runemagic, fire infuse your weapon, etc etc. Food, cooking, desease and poisons. But the light source will also raise your visibility making it harder to stealth. And it always stays grounded, you are just a normal dude having to fight your way throgh the world with cunning. You can light your campfire with a magic spark. And the buff systems with food, potions and magic is insane. And it's not easy. In order to do magic you have to traverse any of three dungeouns in order to reach the core of a mountain. Permanently sacrifice a portion of your health and stamina in order to get a manabar at all. Then you get spark, which on it's own just does a spark with no dmg, it can light campfires. You will have to mine manastones with a pickaxe, then gather oil. Then purchase a Alchemy set. Create a campfire and light it on fire, set the alchemy set on it. Craft a firestone from the manastone and oil. Then you can use a firestone to create a firesigil on the ground. And if you cast spark in that circle you cast fireball that sets things on fire. In general immersive sims for me is a systemic game. Which is why I personally would also include Zelda Breath of the wild. And boderline a lot of the survival games like especially 7 days to die which features fungus that needs a light source to grow, that's systemic design. I would even go so far to say that Survival Games are the inheritors of Immersive Sim games. They have taken the systemic deisgn and developed it to it's natural conclusion, that everything is governed by systems instead of hardcoded. Now Charlatan Wonder seems, to me, to be more thinking about immersive games as break in / puzzle ( with a lot of solutions like crt alt del ) and I guess that's a fair take on it. But maybe we really do need two genres here, one for systemic games and ones for the "break in" ( as opposed to the modern extraction shooters ) type of games.
Where is Hitman: World of Assassination? Each level is a sandbox that you get to solve absolutely however you want. It feels back-to-back like modern Deus Ex.
@kennethruskin2710 I've unsubbed recently because I don't enjoy his content anymore so I do kinda agree. But then again we are entitled to our own opinions lol
It is a bit of a weird opinion for Cruelty Squad being your 4th best ImSim because you blame the people for the next other games? When you say something along the lines before that 'you are the CharlatanWonder, not make someone comfortable'. So, what is Cruelty Squad actually ranks to you without blaming other people?
can we let this Immersive sim tag fade away? all it means is a game that lets you throw boxes and has 2 gimmick mechanics to exploit. like by all "rules" of a immersive sim Duke Nukem 3D is a immersive sim hell every survival game is an immersive sim. the tag is too broad to mean anything
immersive sim is a design principle, not a genre. Thats the big confusion. Look at the list, you have stealth games, rpg´s and fps. Its like saying a game is open world. Yes its open world but what genre? racing, fps, rpg, etc
Okay I realize now I should take one of my replies about Fear and Hunger, copy it, and pin it here so people have a more fleshed out answer:
It was mainly on twitter and also some people that kept trickling into the discord, but while I initially said I'd be open to doing a video about the Fear and Hunger after being asked, I changed my mind after realizing how flippantly it treats certain subject matters for edge points and additionally I take HUGE issue with how the creator tried to pass it off as being Berserk-inspired. The only way I could see the latter is if someone just looked at the most gruesome pictures from Berserk but never actually read the manga. These people did not take me saying 'actually never mind. I really don't like the stuff in this game and don't want to give it lip service' well at all.
The last year has basically been every week or so someone coming into the discord or repeatedly @'ing my on Twitter asking for the game, me explaining for the umpteenth time that 'No, I object to the game and don't want anything to do with it', and then them taking it as if I'm the literal devil and pitching a fit at me. I've had some very negative experiences with the Fear and Hunger fandom this year and each one makes me want to make a video about the game even less.
A Fear and Hunger video is never happening on this channel or on any platform I have. I know better than to ever let any fandom harass me into making a video about their thing because once that happens the first time, every fandom ever now knows that bullying you into making a video about their thing works and they will be relentless until you cave in again, and again, and again. Standing your ground is an important part of being a creator.
It is berserk inspired though, Even if it only took the gore which it clearly doesn't it would still be inspired by berserk. Just because some dumb people harass you doesn't mean you should be dismissive with a game and labeling it before attempting to understand it.
Look I know you mean well but I've noticed that a lot of folks who don't like my stance on something pull out that cheap "yOu JuSt DoN't UnDeRsTaNd." It's high school level gatekeeping. It's the perfect mental block against someone else's opinion by just saying they aren't familiar enough with something to render judgement and therefor all opinions you don't like are invalid. You don't need to dump dozens of hours into something to say, "I really don't like this and feels it mishandles things."
Does tera nova strike force centari count as immersive sim?
im personally a big fan of fear and hunger but i truly believet hat it is not for everyone and most people who are thinking about playing it i just tell not to, its not an easy game to get into and definetly not a pleasent one, though while the game does do a relatively poor job of tackling some of its adult themes, the sequel doesn't include nearly as much visually horrific scenes with simply reference's to the gruesomeness, but its not a game that everyone should play and if you dont want to play it theres nothign wrong with that
the reason why people refer to it as an imm sim is that it does have some aspects like being able to use items or special skills to solve soluttions and the fact that alot of the game and combat is a big puzzle with lots of ways to solve it, while the game never really makes you colour in its lines i dont think its an immersive sim, but i also would like to say that if you are willing to push past the really uncomfrotable subjects there is a genuinely interesting, unique and at times fun experience, though im not saying you have to and its completely up to personal preference, though to most people id say just dont bother with fear and hunger
@@CharlatanWonder a decent chunk of the community are highschoolers who are edgy and heard its cool, never played it and just like to know about it. The game is super fucked up, i dont wanna list hte things that the game makes me feel are uncomfortable but i find this uncomfortableness intriguing and makes me want to delve deeper, if you do change your mind Termina handles the sensitive subjects with alot more care and is in general a much more accessible experience, but seriously, dont take the people who are yelling at you to play it as people who have actually played the game. Some might but most dont, despite it only being like £4 or something, the people getting upset at you for saying it mishandles things are the ones that dont understand the game and dont have the maturity to get that a game that covers the topics it covers is only for very certain audiences
CTRL ALT EGO clicked for me the moment I realized I can use the grabber arm to use vent covers as makeshift hoverboards. Absolute goated game.
Okay cool now I don't have to make one of these for another two or three years.
if you like bg3 try the other games larin has made dos2 and dos are almost on par with bg3 but sadly you can not get on the boxs you stack in those games but the rest of it is there
Inb4 2024's immersive sim wave
What if 35 new imsims get released
Is crysis 1 a immersive sim? Its got box stacking, and big "i didnt ask for this" energy with all the augment adjacent abilities
Is Epic Mickey 1 and 2 immersive sims? They were made by Warren Spector and had that feel.
Bioshock 1 and 2 did have some immersive sim elements, but Infinite was about as far removed from an immersive sim as it could possibly be.
That a pure shooter.
We should have gotten Chronoshock. Damn shame.
Infinite is indeed pretty much a pure shooter, but BS1 and BS2 aren't that much closer though. They definitely are not ImSims.
@@robinmattheussen2395 That's why I said they had SOME ImSim elements.
@@TheMC1102 I get that, but it sounded like you were saying they should be in the "Borderline" tier. Which is something I strongly disagree. If that wasn't what you were saying, never mind!
I really don't understand your reasoning of the original System Shock being in A tier while the remake isn't considered an immersive sim at all. looking back at your review of the remake you didn't seem to hold anything close to that opinion, just that some things changed and some things improved in terms of being more like an immersive sim
He doesn't seem to have any clear idea of what an imsim is supposed to be or some firm definition in mind, just what he likes. I mean ostensibly Cyberpunk 2077 is almost as much of an imsim as Deus Ex, and I'm not saying that makes it a great game mind you, but that the mechanics of the 'imsim' Ion Storm and Looking Glass games have trickled down into the mainstream and have been there for a long time now. Even Ubisoft made use of the general concepts in their games, both the Far Cry sequels to the Crytek original and the more recent Watchdogs series.
In some regards it was perhaps never much of an useful category, niche or genre, but rather more of a buzzword by Specter to hype up how realistic games were getting in terms of simulating things, which then went on to become standardised. And if the term was quickly growing meaningless in the industry then it got worse when opinionated pseuds like Charlatan started using it as a term for 'games I like'.
@@kennethruskin2710Yeah, imsim is not a genre, it's a design philosophy
*Thief 1 in C tier*
"HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON OLD MAN?"
I DO NOT FEAR YOUR BUILDER NOR YOUR WOODSY TRICKSTER!
That's not meant to denigrate the S tier quality of TDP as an experience/game but merely as an ImSim there are better examples from more dedicated games. Consider that TDP straddles multiple genre's much like BG3 and as such - it's a bit of a surprise that it appears here at all.
@@TheT0nedude So why's amnesia the bunker in S tier?
@@jamesducharme1711 Probably because it has a crafting system which enables multiple approaches better than an inherent stealth game, thus a better ImSim example. Anyway why are you asking this? Ultimately it's not my list but I have the maturity to see why something may have been chosen over something else. If it was a stealth list no doubt TDP would be S++ Tier - it should be. Ask the Channel owner it's their opinion. Stop it with the school playground bickering.
@@TheT0nedude TDP and SS2 were the first immersive sims to use any real emergent problem solving (you can light torches on fire in thief (which was not an established mechanic) attract zombies to kill guards and vice versa or you can try to blow up locked doors and in case of ss2 crush a robot with an elevator) if we are going to use systematic game structure as an excuse to shit on a beloved franchise thief series just ain't the one especially considering how old the games (and their engine) are.
No I think charlatan just doesn't like the games (notice im not trying to argue im just trying to explain why I think systematic game design is not a good reason (which wasn't your argument you just assumed that this is the reason for charlatan's ranking)
for a horror game to be a better imsim than thief)
tiermaker.com/create/immersive-sim-tier-list-16417706 here's the template if you guys wanna make your own tier list.
I hope Bloodlines 2 and Shadow of a Doubt turn out to be GREAT GAMES.
Cyberpunk 2077 is the most recent great one, and up there with Deus Ex HR in best games. The funniest new sim games are those 1st person indies where the player shops, drives vehicles, gambles, hunts, farms, etc. but all designed pretty badly into one game, haha. 😄
Glad to see Shadows of Doubt get an honorable mention. :)
I literally pissed myself and started rolling on the ground screaming & crying when I saw you put thief deadly shadows an entire rank lower
Awww man I just had these carpets shampooed.
Came for the games, stayed for the food.
If Baldur's Gate 3 can be considered an immersive sim, then their Divinity: Original Sin games (especially the second one) should also be considered as they are also quite open and creative.
Yeah but divinity and divinity 2 are WAY more locked down than bg3 I love divinity and its even better than bg3 in some ways but i dont think it hits imsim level of freedom.
If Baldurs Gate 3 is an immersive sim, surely Divinity Original Sin 2 could arguably be considered one too, right?
And the original Divine Divinity. And Ultima VII. Pleb discovers the mutated offspring of Richard Garriott and thinks that the Deus Ex formula finally arrived to RPGs. His BG3 review will be terrible.
Man CTRL ALT Ego really didn't mesh with me at all when I played it, but you put it above Deus Ex. Maybe I'll give it arry some time and see some of what you do in it. If nothing else, that was a brave listing and I've got to respect that
To be a bit of a shill CTRL ALT EGO is one of those games that gets better the further you go.
CTRL ALT EGO is a game I felt was middling as a game but amazing as an immersive sim if that makes any sense. It starts slow. Far too slow and restricted for too long. Took me probably about 7 hours to reach the point where it started feeling like a proper immersive sim but then the next 10 hours were great. Since all skills are valid for progressing using a different playstyle the shotgun skill is bit of a trap since it turns the game into a shooter and you don't really need to use anything else. Amazingly well done immersive sim but a bit flawed as a game.
I had a hard time keeping track of YOUR definition of an immersive sim, by proper definition you discredited half these games because "you have to go through linear designs" okay then you're saying games with multiple branching paths and rpg mechanics is an immersive sim but then you go on to say games like stalker or cyberpunk arent immersive sims despite having all the previously states pre-requisites to your definition. Overall I like your video but it'd be helpful to have you break down what an immersive sim is to you prior to listing the games because trying to keep track through the video it felt like you kept changing the rules of "what an immersive sim is" because of your personal experience with the game (nothing wrong with disliking a game either but that doesnt make it excluded from a genre because you dont like the shared similarities). Not trying to hate just trying to point out where I kept getting lost on the topic.
alright going a little further, you need a psych eval. The hypocrisy in this video is insane, "system shock is an immersive sim, but the remake which is the same game isnt". You're a troglodyte dude just say you don't like some games rather than discrediting what they are.
@@Mystic_HatterNot that I disagree with you that a lot of the games he discredits here as not being immersive sims do deserve to be on the list over say, Amnesia: The Bunker if we’re going by his own definition (e.g. Tears of the Kingdom) but the whiplash between “not trying to hate, like your video” to “on second thought you are a troglodyte who needs a psych eval” is funny AF lmao
He clearly states that some games he doesn't list, he likes.
The Outer Worlds isnt a Bethesda RPG at all, really. It's more an old style Obsidian/Troika RPG in the vein of KOTOR 2/VTMB or, dare I say it, Fallout 1 or 2. There's nothing about it that makes it Bethesda style at all.
They didnt lean into "the guys that brought you New Vegas." You guys did. They put "from the guys who brought you Fallout (1)" in the ads because it was made by Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky. Yknow, same guys who invented Fallout and brought us VTMB. Projecting your expectations onto the devs, and then criticizing them for it, is very strange.
I think once I grind through Bg3, GTFO, and Bomb Rush Cyberfunk i'm gonna pick up Ctrl Alt Ego and Acid Knife if they're both released. The latter probably won't be an imsim but it's borderline in the craziest, best ways. I honestly wish Powerhoof sacrificed all the resources for The Drifter because I know it'll be mediocre in comparison, but at the same time I do understand their choices.
Eyepatchwolf mentioned in a short sentence in his video on Fear & Hunger that during gameplay he found out it was an immersive sim, i think that's where this is coming from
You could say that tho, genres are just a vain attempt to categorize something that is becoming harder and harder to categorize. And it feels like he kind of is gatekeeping the term a little but it's still a good video.
Yeah, if I recall correctly, I think he mentioned that the design reminded him of an immersive sim more than of a typical RPG, and given all the content I've consumed I think that's totally fair. I'm not sure that he would necessarily call it an imsim by strict or clear criteria, though; the point was more that it shares some of the ethos of immersive sim design with rewarding out-of-the-box thinking, stacking different fleshed-out mechanics and systems, etc. Part of me almost thinks there should be a separate category for stuff like that - the new Zelda games certainly come to mind, and I'm sure there are many others, as well.
@seansachs6105 i agree with the guy commenting before in that charlatan is kinda gatekeeping here. And ich am not defining fear & hunger, havent played it yet only seen gameplay and the eyepatch video. But eyepatchwolf said: This is not an RPG!? This is an immersive sim! Not quoting here btw 😄
And that sentence. Even if he didn't want to put the game into a genre brings This şort of misconception for people saying he should review it 😄
@@sultanbaba1230 A good western CRPG tries to reward out-of-the-box thinking, though. They're supposed to allow for multiple, distinct approaches to its challenges based on character builds and in-game player choices. The point of these games is to make the player feel that their choices/approach affects how the game progresses for them, makes it unique/personalized for them even. Even if these games didn't have 'emergent' or physics-based mechanics, or processed generation of levels/items/etc., their developers would try to think of everything their players may want to do in game, and accommodate for it, often rewarding the player for trying some silly or obscure thing.
What eventually became called the "immersive sim" was Deus Ex using both the western RPG's multiple/custom solution design (in distinct skills/weapons and in quest resolution) and the physics-based emergent gameplay of its 3D engine, to allow for genuinely novel solutions from its players. I wouldn't call isometric CRPGs like Baldur's Gate 3 immersive sims though, since they're the parent/progenitor of the im sim: developers like Larian are just updating them with the emergent mechanics that are possible now. If earlier RPGs could've had stacking crates, oil slicks, pushing NPCs off cliffs, etc., they definitely would have, and they'd only call it a technical evolution of the genre.
I'd say Fear and Hunger is 100% Survival Horror. Eventually you're remembering routes to avoid enemies/ balancing dwindling resources and it clicks that it's survival horror. Termina especially.
I don't feel Amnesia - The Bunker as an immersive sim. Opening a door forceful and loud with a gun or opening a door forceful and loud with a brick aren't really different approaching to overcoming an obstacle. It's immersive, I give you that, but its options are way too limited.
Can't believe you did Dark Messiah dirty like that! It deserves way more credit for having some of the best FPS melee combat ever seen, even by todays standards.
the combat should be great except you spend so much time fighting zombies and spiders that you don't get to use it as it's best.
kick kick kick kick wasn't that good tbh
i replayed the game literally days before this vid and idk, i feel like people really exaggerate the zombie/spider thing. theres not that many of them at all, but annoyance sticks to memory i guess
Have you played it in recent years though? I replayed it earlier this year, and it's pretty damn rough and the combat is far from as good as I remembered it being.
@@emdeo It was so much more than kick kick kick. Directional melee attacks, pick up any physics object and throw it, parries, combat staffs, elemental effects, synergies with magic effects, enemies getting fatigued after taking damage to the point where they start crawling around on the floor. These intricate systems were miles ahead of Bethesdas pisspoor attempts at melee combat, for example.
My favourite immersive sim is Charlatan Wonder
prey 2017 will ALWAYS be the king
also really surprised to see BG3 on here but i am not complaining lol
deus ex 2000 victim
Real Prey (2006) > Arkane's Cooms(h)ock 2017. Let's be real here, System Shock was good for the time but SS2 was straight into the toilet and a terrible sequel to boot, while everything that came after both from Arkane and Irrational was irredeemable garbage.
@@kennethruskin2710 clown
Real life should be in S-tier tbh
Nah. The devs are way too heavy-handed in constraining your actions. It's a soft fence with the whole "law enforcement" system and all, but it's still kinda bullshit.
I tried shadows of doubt and immediately clipped through the floor of my apartment, going to let that one develop for a while 😅
that’s valid, love the game but it does have it problems. Luckily the issues aren’t gameplay related
When it comes to classifying individual games as either "ImSim", "Not-ImSim" or "Borderline", I think I pretty agree with you 100%. You're spot on. My only disagreement is with BS1 being in the borderline tier. It should just be moved to "Not ImSim". However, when it comes to the scores given to the actual immersive sims, oh boy! There's some *really* crazy ones in there. Some of them almost made me openly weep. But that's totally OK of course, to each their own.
The ImSim genre boundaries continue to confuse me. By the logic stated by the titans of the genre(warren spector, harvey smith, raphael colantonio), the point is to have systemic ways of interacting with the world and solving problems. Set missions with an open playing field of possibilities for the player to get creative. This to me seems the main point of ImSims. Just immersive systemic games. I don't see why MGS V wouldn't be. I think stacking boxes should be forgotten as some indicator of an ImSim. I'd be glad to hear some perspectives.
Happy to see CTRL-ALT-EGO at the top. While I'm not sure I'd put it above Deus Ex, I'm also not sure that I wouldn't.
I was upset with the Thief shaming. Then I saw you actually eat Prego sauce. That explained everything
Lmao what
@@RayhanKabir-o3vmost store bought tomato sauces aren't all that good and Prego is one of the "bottom of the barrel" brands. For a long time I was using that store bought tomato sauce for all my cooking, but I recently started making my own sauce at home. It's really easy and it's just as cheap if not even more cheap than buying store bought sauce.
SKIBIDIBOP MDADA *(explosion)*
What does he mean by this, we wonders?
Prego is good i wont stand for this slander
Great video, I completely agree with your opinion on Ctrl Alt Ego, I knew I was onto something special when I tried the demo and I bought the game right after :D
One could argue that Bioshock 1 and 2 are immersive sims given the definition of imm sim can sometimes vary and isn’t as well defined as other genres
Bioshock 2 has all the same features that 1 does but with improved gameplay. The only thing it lacks is the U-Invent. Disqualifying it due to “feel” doesn’t make sense.
As for VTMB, that is arguably more of an RPG but could go into either.
For the System Shock Remake, it’s unclear what exactly was removed to make it disqualified in your eyes as while things were changed the flow of gameplay is largely the same.
Its so stupid how he can consider Dishonored as an Imsim, yet System Shock Remake when it barely removes a few, if rather negligable things is suddenly not an Imsim: Totally cap.
I'd say Bioshock 2 would barely make it, mostly due to the level design being a bit more streamlined and not as open. That being said, Bioshock 2 is fucking amazing.
I am unsure what Baldur's Gate 3 is doing in the ImSims... I mean, it's BG3 and game is GOTY but it's an RPG after all, just made with the approach "Let's emulate what TTRPG players can do in their game behind the table" kinda
Its not even an ImSim its a CRPG, it shouldn't be there at all.
Cool head cannon and opinions on whats “immersive sim” is. Appreciate the effort through all the games. Lots of new games to try!
He has a full video breaking down exactly how he sees the term. See that for full details. :)
considering that emerging gameplay is like, the biggest reason to play mgs V instead of any other MGS, i'm surprised you don't consider it an imsim
but tbf i do understand that calling it a sandbox stealth game is better since a lot of funny stuff you can do is planned out by Kojima beforehand and doesn't always emerge organically
also i love the "it's just pathologic" line hehe
OH GOD "DO NOT RECITE THE DEEP MAGIC" LOVE IT HAHA
i love amnesia bunker so much already replayed it twice
If mgsv is an imsim then so is the farcry series. Mgsv really is just farcry 3 in third person with a wacky(er) story clunkily bolted on.
@@timhorton8085 fair enough
Love this list! And this channel is one of my go-tos for discovering new immersive sims. I have found some absolute gems through you, many thanks! One overlooked game I feel deserves a mention is Neon Struct by Minor Key. It's basically Thief but set in a Deus Ex-like setting. Very minimalistic but worth a playthrough. Two future imsims that might also be worth a look are Skin Deep and Core Decay. I was also eagerly-anticipating Consortium: The Tower but haven't heard anything about it for quite a while now. Can't wait for Peripeteia and Shadow's of Doubt's 1.0!
Thanks! and while I haven't heard of Consortium yet, I'll admit it was an intentional choice to not include Core Decay in the honorable mentions because that game's been almost entirely radio silent for a couple years now. I have no idea what's going on at 3D Realms/the dev but there isn't enough activity to justify putting it among games you can expect to come out in the next year.
As a first-time viewer I DID NOT expect the video to turn into a COOKING RECIPE out of nowhere
i really respect charlatan wonder for putting a horror game in which the only imsim element that it has is the fact that you can break a wooden door in multiple ways on S tier while other genre defining games are on C tire i really do respect and admire his boldness
Ill watch this tomorrow, have a good time tierlisting!
While I disagree with the rationale behind excluding Fear and Hunger from ImSim, I greatly respect your choice to not play it. Wonderful list even though my boy EYE still in the 'Eurojank Blackhole'.
I feel you need to play it to truly judge if it's a ImSim or not but I can understand the content might not be his cup of tea.
This reminded me, even though it uses ASCII style graphics, Nethack has such freedom of approach and such a kitchen sink of corner cases allowed that it should come under the umbrella. "The DevTeam Thinks Of Everything" was coined as a description of just how deep this game is.
House Party never seems to be on peoples' imsim radars despite having so much emphasis on player freedom and systems driven emergent gameplay. It's also neat that it's an imsim where the main focus isn't violence. House Party deserves to be on B tier
This video expanded my steam wishlist. I'm especially interested in ctrl alt ego. Thank you for letting me know what's good and worth supporting the developers with
Sorry but this list was pretty shit. why even have games on the list of Immersive sims if you are just gonna put them in the list of 'not immersive sim'. Also i feel the things were ranked pretty poorly in general
I certainly agree that btow and totk are not emsims but they're emergent gameplay is certainly intentional.
I still have huge beef for where thief 1 and 2 are, but well not everything is for everyone lmao. Cheers, charl and say hi for frisk for me.
Charl: little chef trick we like to use: add your flavor oil (bacon grease, butter, etc) and then add olive oil or grapeseed oil to raise the smoke point. This way you get the best of both worlds. Love your stuff man, keep up the righteous work! 🎉
Holy shit this is brilliant! Thanks!
Tears of the Kingdom only 'accidentally' has elements of emergent gameplay? The fuck? lol The whole game is built around emergent gameplay and the idea that gamers would find new and interesting ways to use the mechanics in game to accomplish different things. That was very literally the entire premise behind how the devs wanted to improve on Breath of the Wild(which already had a fair bit of this same identity). I really dont get how Tears of the Kingdom could NOT be an immersive sim by pretty much every definition you've used.
I can buy it not being an imsim, but it’s certainly more of an imsim than Bioshock (and for that matter, so is FNV, System Shock Remake and probably a bunch of others in the “not an imsim” category)
Baldur's Gate and immersive sim? lol
Once saw a let's play. The guy arrives at this green woman in the cage sorrounded by enemies.
Thinks to himself: I will sneak up to them and attack them.
Attacks them.
Cut.
Conversation with them starts, as if he just approached them.
Thinks to himself: Ok, let's do it different then. Speaks to them peacefully.
Conversation ends peacefully.
Game remembers he attacked them.
Combat starts.
When I saw that I laughed my ass off about all those marketing lies about being able to do everything and the game considering it. :D
Stoked for Fortune's Run.
I’ve learned that what I’m really looking for are more games with immersive hub worlds instead of open world or sim. Deus Ex, VTMB, KOTOR, Mass Effect, Jade Empire, Ratchet and Clank. They’re better structured experiences, but still give you the feeling of exploration.
The Dark Project is underrated
Amazing video, I've been following you for a while now and I've been wanting an in depth guide as to which immersive sim i should play first (I havent played any yet) and this video helps a TON with guiding me through that
I just realized that I've never actually made a 'how to get into ImSIms' video.
@@CharlatanWonder Add it to the list!
Great video. The only question that I have is "What constitutes an immersive sim in your opinion?". Its no wonder that people confuse what is and what isnt an im-sim, descriptions you can find on the internet are often vague and broad. So it would've been useful to identify what imsim implies and add it to the ground rules section.
I say this, because even being very familiar with the genre - I still found myself surprised that both Disco Elysium and Baldur's Gate 3 made it to the list, yet recieved so different a judgement. Always thought that if not an immersive sim - Disco Elysium was very close to it, but then thought Baldur's Gate 3 is just a great rpg, dnd made virtual.
This kind of sums up the issue people have with CW. I'd say it's almost universally agreed that the "first person" perspective is a core tenet of immersive sims (literally to be immersed in the character) - to the point where it was controversial that DXHR had third person camera angles for cover and conversations. Yet this is entirely optional according to CW's definition.
VtmB is widely considered one of the pillars of the imsim genre; it's open ended gameplay is responsive to the player's choices, gives them the freedom to approach most tasks in a variety of ways. But this is considered "borderline" because... well CW never actually says why, just handwaves it as "not having everything required of an imsim" (that most nebulous of defintions).
The arbitrariness of CW's definition of imsim is so comical that he classifies System Shock as an imsim and then in almost the same breath says the faithful remake of that game (which is near functionally identical) is absolutely not an imsim. I don't know how anyone could actually hold both of these opinions to be true at the same time, actual wild doublethink. It's like saying Zelda OOT 3DS remake isn't a Zelda game because it made the iron boots toggleable outside the menu.
I know this sounds like I'm just hating on CW, I genuinely like his content but his takes are wild and you definitely should get a second - sane - opinion elsewhere.
Hot take, but I don't think System Shock 2 is also an ImSim.
No box stacking, no in-depth simulation, stealth is not viable and I can't think of an example of emergent gameplay in there from the top of my head.
All it's got is kitchen sink design, "immersive" part of ImSim genre and a rich history with people working on actual ImSims.
I'm fully prepared to get a lot of flack for this take, so come at me with counter-arguments at the ready, I'm more then prepared to change my mind when presented with new evidence. = )
It's with bioshock 1 as far as being an imm sim, borderline
Nah man, I love System Shock 2 but you’re right, it’s an action/RPG hybrid that’s borderline just like Bioshock and doesn’t even meet the definition of an immersive sim if you’re even somewhat strict about it.
Got another borderline one for you. Far Cry 2. Highly emergent gameplay, but just like Stalker, shooty shoot is really the only option.
If Thief is an immersive sim, I would argue Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is too. You can win without anyone detecting you and with zero knockouts, and the levels while linear are pretty open.
Given the inclusion of Baldur's Gate 3 on this list, would you consider including either of Larian's previous efforts (Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2) on future lists? I'm not sure they'd ever be worth doing videos on given both how extensively covered they were when released and given how long they are, but DOS2 ticks basically all the same boxes (I assume) BG3 ticks.
Also really enjoyed the vid!
morrowind probably doesn't count as an immersive sim if only for its lack of any real physics but it's a lot closer than you give it credit for
its not just like... a meme game where you do the potion loop. there's a lot of mechanical depth to its interactions and its simply not just an exploit game. id argue it does for character progression what immersive sims do for environmental interaction. for example: my first ever character was a spear-using light armor user with a bunch of tertiary magic skill. the character was far from optimal and i had no knowledge/goals with regards to artifacts or best-in-slot shit. nonetheless, i was able to overcome the bridge wizard and other early game hurdles partly by consciously choosing what fights to not take, and partly by smartly investing in training. without having to majorly grind or do a dumb exploit, i was able to turn a subpar character who was spread too thin into a strong fighter that was respected by the residents of the island. obviously, that's not the same thing as a game where you can stack boxes or kick down doors, but i think theres a pretty neat comparison to be drawn. i was able to eke out my own solution to my character's inherent issues
oh, and by the way- morrowind's doors get pretty close to immersive sim tier. you can't bash them down like in daggerfall, but theres a lot of depth to unlocking locks and disarming magical traps, all without the stupid little minigames of later entries. lockpicking is more or less the deus ex system, using the security skill, and probing traps is the same
the alternative solutions are to:
-rng to force the lock
-just tank the trap
-use different tiers of/custom versions of/enchanted casts of the unlock spell effect on the lock
-use a telekinesis effect to just pop the trap from outside of its range
the latter 2 are my favorite
im writing this with the assumption that you haven't played morrowind, given that your phrasing seemed to dismiss it as a game defined by the potion loop? but if you've played it, i guess you already know all this haha
in which case i guess i hope someone else sees this and decides to try morrowind
to reiterate, none of this makes morrowind an immersive sim, i just wanted to talk about some of its aspects that i think scratch a similar itch in terms of depth
although i will say alchemy and finding the mudcrab merchant did end up doing some strange things to my wallet at higher levels. it turns out you don't *need* The Meme Loop to be able to eventually make some pretty good potions both for effect and sell price. ofc, it did take a while to get there!
i think its fair calling zelda not an imsim , but its emergent gameplay is definetely not "accidental" i have no clue how u took that away from the newr zelda games
There are multiple interviews where the devs at Nintendo bring up seeing all the crazy exploits people figured out with Breath of the Wild and they decided to go in a direction that encouraged it even more. To say it’s “accidental” is definitely strange, and honestly except for being open world and third person the game is even more an imsim than something like Bioshock.
I think the reason people think that Disco Elysium and New Vegas are imsims is because they have the freedom of choice in dialogue, with consequences, and all of that, they are good role playing games that allow you to think outside of the box, wich is similar to how imsims let you do have freedom of choice and creativity in gameplay, very similar concepts but totally different things
One is in the story and the other in gameplay
Check his pinned comment.
No crate stacking = no imsim
@@ChiefQueef_ true
Which is why Tears of the Kingdom should be considered one of the best and strongest immersive sims ever, by such definitions.
U just uninstalled Disco Elysium, such an annoying game.
do not let this dude to cook ever again.
I would at least put the SS remake in borderline. It had more emergent gameplay than BioShock did, at least for me.
Its more an Imsim than Dishonored: This whole Tierlist is honestly CAP after just that ranking, and I don't even play that many ImSims: But I can tell that if you consider Bioshock to not be an Imsim: Can you really then call Dishonored an A Tier Imsim then Shaft the System Shock Remake? That seems like pretty damn inconsistent logic to me.
One thing about only occasionally watching your videos is being surprised there's a cooking segment in (at least some of) them, followed by me enjoying that section
I like Thief 2014....
I'll do better. Thief 2014 still looks great to this day and whatever sorcery Eidos-Montréal used to get their version of the Unreal Engine to not age like milk is worthy of praise, and it is also a much better stealth game than Dishonored could ever hope to be. It's also one of the last structured stealth games since every mainstream stealth game afterwards fell for the open world meme and that entirely destroyed designed challenges.
Dishonored 1 is my favorite stealth game, Thief is slightly lower than that in my rankings but I see the similarities. Thief does look really good still, magic I tell ya.
AccursedFarms has a list of (general) games in his dynamic website. You could do this with this instead of making a video every 3-4 years. It's easier to update continuously. But I prefer this tbh.
As for Fear and Hunger, good. Don't bother with something you dislike and whose people dislike you for no good reason. Also, don't make long writeups for people who will just ignore it.
6:52 "no matter what I say, or how I rank Thief Deadly Shadows, the players are gonna be sad" amazing quote.
8:45 missed opportunity to say Dishonorific!!!
12:16 peak american meal.
12:59-13:04 "just because a restaurant has a steak, doesn't mean it's a steakhouse" well said. Of many things, even beyond games.
15:23 the word you're looking for is "abandoned"
18:53 I remember when all that cruelty squad was, was the latest darling of "le cappie talisman bad" breadtube people. Who see money signs everywhere. It was tagged as such on steam, thank god it's gone now.
24:33 Ultra Doodoo is my favorite DOOM shooter difficulty.
27:21 🤣🤣🤣. Nice one. Thanks, I always enjoy highlighting people's ignorance and hindsight bias.
People be supereyepatchwolf fans calling fear and loathing an immersive sim
you'll need to add a new SSS+++ category for the next tier list with Consumer Softproducts's new entry in the Immersive Sim Genre, Psycho Patrol R.
"How dare you!" ......You know what that's fair. It was more of a COD campaign than a Bioshock game
MY HEART FELL TO THE GROUND WHEN U SAID THE SYSTEM SHOCK REMAKE IS NOT AN IMMERSIVE SIM. BUT I WAS ALSO OVER THE MOON WHEN U PUT PREY TO S TIER. I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT PREY. TO BAD WE ARE NEVER GOING TO GET A SEQUEL TO IT
yeh I don't understand system shock remake not being an imsim, good way to farm comments I guess
26:07 how can anyone enjoy gunplay that constantly rewards you with that painfully unsatisfying animation
My mind keeps going back to Amnesia: The Bunker. It really is a masterpiece. I hope they make a sequel which 100% could just be more of the same and I'd hog it up. Really the ties to the old amnesia games were a thing that kinda dragged the story and mystery.
I would argue that the Chaos system in Dishonored is one of its best features, with one simple caveat: The game seems perfectly balanced to play without using manual reloading. It's not a very hard game, and with a few tries you can usually do anything you want in any given situation. But if you only reload from checkpoints after dying, you are forced to own your mistakes. And this turns the Chaos system from a gimmick into a core gameplay element, because you're now always keeping a mental tally of "can I get away with it?" in mind. You'll find yourself making decisions like simply killing the target, rather than taking the non-lethal approach, because the latter has the potential of simply getting you into more trouble. Or knifing a guard because it's faster than choking, and you're sure you can do it before the other guard turns around. It made for an incredibly memorable playthrough of the game for me, and it felt like a real punch to the gut when, after a consistently Low Chaos run, I approached the ending to discover I had slipped into High Chaos. Despite my best efforts, people regarded me as a monster. When Samuel the boatman berated me on my actions, it felt like a real judgement. An unfair one. Because I tried, Samuel. I really, really tried. But did you all really expect to set a killer loose on the streets and him not to kill?
Ultimately what made it so satisfying is that it gives the game a real sense of your actions actually mattering. Not just the story actions scripted out for you, but everything you do. And it really informs all of your decisions in the game in a way that I found very compelling. Because now it's not a set of interconnected obstacles to overcome, but one big, meta-obstacle. For the two of you who might read this, if you haven't played the game this way, I highly recommend it.
I was thinking Fear & Hunger 1-2 would be perfect fit for Halloween themed vids, but I guess you don't like it for some reason (wich is fair).
Reason being a weak constitution, he can't handle the 'stinger'. Seriously, I'm pretty sure it's the 90's edge that scare some people off.
in Morrowind you can click on the world item and drag it in your inventory (very immersive) and you fly (very sim). Also for Tears of the Kingdom - it's precisely because it has moments of "accidental" immersive gameplay that it can be considered immersive because it's not scripted but relies entirely on the game's systems, though I just call it a sandbox at this point
I can stand Thief slander but being so obnoxious about it while having a Zoomer level of understanding of it is just silly
In my opinion those immersive game suggestions you got mostly consist of not actually immersive sim genre games because people might misunderstood the term of immersive sim. I myself before this video actually thought that immersive simulator is Skyrim, Fallout games because you immerse into the world/characters and it looks believable actually making you full immerse into the world, but apperantly its not the case xd
I do have a question about Fear and Hunger. I've been watching Charl for a while now, but
have I missed some development where Charlatan boy talks about F&H? Because the way he speaks about it in the video sounds like
"I don't like it, I don't care for it, stop fucking pestering me about it."
has he ever spoken about the game somewhere? (note: I respect Fear and Horny but never really did play it, so this is just my curiosity speaking)
It was mainly on twitter and also some people that kept trickling into the discord, but while I initially said I'd be open to doing a video about the Fear and Hunger after being asked, I changed my mind after realizing how flippantly it treats certain subject matters for edge points and additionally I take HUGE issue with how the creator tried to pass it off as being Berserk-inspired. The only way I could see the latter is if someone just looked at the most gruesome pictures from Berserk but never actually read the manga. These people did not take me saying 'actually never mind. I really don't like the stuff in this game and don't want to give it lip service' well at all.
The last year has basically been every week or so someone coming into the discord or repeatedly @'ing my on Twitter asking for the game, me explaining for the umpteenth time that 'No, I object to the game and don't want anything to do with it', and then them taking it as if I'm the literal devil and pitching a fit at me. I've had some very negative experiences with the Fear and Hunger fandom this year and each one makes me want to make a video about the game even less.
A Fear and Hunger video is never happening on this channel or on any platform I have. I know better than to ever let any fandom harass me into making a video about their thing because once that happens the first time, every fandom ever now knows that bullying you into making a video about their thing works and they will be relentless until you cave in again, and again, and again. Standing your ground is an important part of being a creator.
@@CharlatanWonder
Fucking amen chief! That is not answer, that's a FUCKING ACE of a statement!
Thank you for clarification, chief. Kinda reminds of that one time some random New Vegas wanker LITERALLY commented on your unrelated video to spout their nonsense, because they didn't have enough mental capacity to get the hint as to why you turned the comments off to your New Vegas vid.
23:47 it would be nice if you put the name of the game on screen if it's unorthodox
I think it's "Peripeteia", judging from someone else's comment.
@@kasane1337 yeah, I found it by using trial and error by looking at cutoff imagine in the tier list.
What was the name of the game mentioned at 23:47? It sounded like therapedia but it's a nightmare to try and understand what you just said. Google had gone to shit so it just thinks I keep trying to type therapy.
Completely insane dishonored 2 is not on the top 5. It's a generational leap beyond dishonored 1 and storywise it's probably the most reactive immersive sim, like Corvo and Emily storylines have 3 or 4 major developments for each, you can play dishonored 2 ten times and it can be a significantly different game each time.
Did you miss the part about ImSim being defined by reactive *gameplay* rather than reactive *story?* This is why "Disco Elysium" for example was disqualified. ;)
@@Archangelm127 And dishonored 2 lacks gameplay? it double down everything from the original.
You can play Dishonored 2 from the low chaos stealth only who refused the mark of the outsider (no powers, it's basically a thief run of dishonored 2) all the way to super powered kill everyone run.
@@elviskleber10 Go rewatch CW's video about defining what an ImSim actually is; he does a much better job of defining what "emergent gameplay" means than I ever could. :)
@@Archangelm127 Dishonored 2 is literally big dishonored 1, I don't understand what's the argument here is. How is the sequel that makes everything better worse than the original?
@@elviskleber10 Sorry, my bad. I got this mixed up in my head with some other conversations in other threads.
Okay, so the objections to DH2 vs DH1 that I heard stemmed from narrative, as in the actual story rather than its flow. I can see the objection to having the choice of protagonist, though I'm not sure I agree. Also CW said that the overworld segments were too extensive for his taste. I flatly disagree on that point. But it's not my list. :D
yoo dishonored is one of my favorite series of all time and I came here to find more games like it, hopefully my life is about to be changed
Just as you started talking about alone in the dark, I got an ad for the new alone in the dark, it does NOT look good at all
finally a chance for you to put EYE into SS tier, also i feel like hitman isnt imsim but instead a weird simulator
I have backed two games on Kickstarter, both around the same time.
Kingdom Come Deliverance. Wow! Talk about a huge win! Amazing game imo. Sequel's coming out this year, too, and I can't wait.
And the other one was Underworld Ascendant...
I
Would you say that if a game was designed to let you kill everyone but also finishing it whitout killing anyone, that makes it an immersive sim ?
i dont think that caves of qud is one but its pretty close, have you played?
Yep,qud is full to the brim of emergent gameplay. And is Kenshi an immersive sim by the really broad charlatan's wonder criteria ?
Charl eating good on ImSims and having a lot on his plate is great news for us. Also we get great new recipes!
Deux Ex: Invisible War is an underrated game and doesn't deserve to be at D tier, and doesn't deserve most of the hate it gets. I definitely think that their choice to simplify so many of the things which made the original great was a mistake, and their prioritization of high fidelity graphics and lighting effects definitely hurt their ability to make large and rich areas, but it still ended up being a very good game. It was very disappointing for fans of the original who wanted a more sophisticated version of the same thing, but people who were new to the franchise actually really liked it, and I personally think that it's actually a very well made and engaging game which holds up very well to other games of the same generation.
It was dumbed down, sure, but it was actually a really polished game which has aged much, much better than most other games from the same generation. It wasn't exactly what I wanted it to be, but it was a very well rounded and polished game which succeeded in being what the devs wanted it to be, and I personally think that the writing and the over-arching narrative of the game is relatively well executed, though it definitely didn't live up to the original. By contrast, I would say that Deus Ex: Human Revolution is actually a worse game, especially relative to its time period. In my opinion, Human Revolution actually has more flaws in its design than Invisible War has, and strays even further from the design concepts which made the original Deus Ex so great. In addition to how much more powerful the hardware was, Human Revolution had the benefit of so many more years of game history to learn from than Invisible War had had, and ended up having significantly less freedom of choice than Invisible War. Human Revolution ended up doing an excellent job of the action and stealth gameplay for the most part, and the graphics, artistic direction, a lot of the voice acting, and some of the writing is of very high quality, but a lot of the writing is terrible, and the broader story and theme of Human Revolution is, for the most part, totally absurd and impossible to take seriously, and shows ZERO self awareness of how absurd it is either. The original Deus Ex was actually never intended to be taken entirely seriously, though I think its story did end up coming off significantly more seriously than the game designers had originally intended it to be.
Nice video! I have to try Cruelty Squad! And, of course, all of the other games. :D
My first contact with immersive sims was with Arx Fatalis.
How about Outward? In my mind if you can defend Ultima Underworld as an Immersive Sim to be logcial consistense you would have to include Outward as well. It has decaying food and alchemy ingredients like underworld, weapon durability. Dynamic light, the dengueons are dark. But you can either wield a tourch, hold a lantern, strap lantern to better backpacks, create a floating light ball with runemagic, fire infuse your weapon, etc etc. Food, cooking, desease and poisons. But the light source will also raise your visibility making it harder to stealth. And it always stays grounded, you are just a normal dude having to fight your way throgh the world with cunning. You can light your campfire with a magic spark. And the buff systems with food, potions and magic is insane.
And it's not easy. In order to do magic you have to traverse any of three dungeouns in order to reach the core of a mountain. Permanently sacrifice a portion of your health and stamina in order to get a manabar at all. Then you get spark, which on it's own just does a spark with no dmg, it can light campfires. You will have to mine manastones with a pickaxe, then gather oil. Then purchase a Alchemy set. Create a campfire and light it on fire, set the alchemy set on it. Craft a firestone from the manastone and oil. Then you can use a firestone to create a firesigil on the ground. And if you cast spark in that circle you cast fireball that sets things on fire.
In general immersive sims for me is a systemic game. Which is why I personally would also include Zelda Breath of the wild. And boderline a lot of the survival games like especially 7 days to die which features fungus that needs a light source to grow, that's systemic design.
I would even go so far to say that Survival Games are the inheritors of Immersive Sim games. They have taken the systemic deisgn and developed it to it's natural conclusion, that everything is governed by systems instead of hardcoded.
Now Charlatan Wonder seems, to me, to be more thinking about immersive games as break in / puzzle ( with a lot of solutions like crt alt del ) and I guess that's a fair take on it. But maybe we really do need two genres here, one for systemic games and ones for the "break in" ( as opposed to the modern extraction shooters ) type of games.
I tried arx fatalis once and couldn't make it out of the turorial because it kept crashing or hanging, not a great time
Have you tried installing the mod Arx Libertatis?
Great to see streets of rogue getting some love.
Where is Hitman: World of Assassination? Each level is a sandbox that you get to solve absolutely however you want. It feels back-to-back like modern Deus Ex.
whats wrong with fear and hunger? I respect your opinion but am genuinely curious.
He’s mentioned before that he doesn’t want to touch or talk about it due to the extreme content, which fair enough it’s not meant for everyone at all.
Did you watch the video? Don't respect this guy's opinions, they're trash.
@kennethruskin2710 I've unsubbed recently because I don't enjoy his content anymore so I do kinda agree. But then again we are entitled to our own opinions lol
Have you played the System Shock remake from last year? GOD DAMN WHAT A GAME!
Watching this video as i play thief 4 since it was free on epic and while i am kinda enjoying it, I'm not surprised that it's in ultra doodoo
It is a bit of a weird opinion for Cruelty Squad being your 4th best ImSim because you blame the people for the next other games? When you say something along the lines before that 'you are the CharlatanWonder, not make someone comfortable'. So, what is Cruelty Squad actually ranks to you without blaming other people?
You sold me on ctrl alt ego. Plus bonus, it's on sale
can we let this Immersive sim tag fade away? all it means is a game that lets you throw boxes and has 2 gimmick mechanics to exploit. like by all "rules" of a immersive sim Duke Nukem 3D is a immersive sim hell every survival game is an immersive sim. the tag is too broad to mean anything
immersive sim is a design principle, not a genre. Thats the big confusion. Look at the list, you have stealth games, rpg´s and fps. Its like saying a game is open world. Yes its open world but what genre? racing, fps, rpg, etc
The most important thing is that we can finally recognize Bioshock Infinite for what it always was.
i bought Stay Out of the House because of this video, and i've never been more disappointed T_T