My deck has a overall score of 62.75 … where does this in terms of other casually high powered decks? I’m running Animar the name of the deck on EDH Rec - is “ Buy Animar - Temur Good Stuff - High Power “
In my view, certain episodes demand all three hosts if possible, and not getting to hear Matt yell about Tergrid or the color blue for the annual Salt episode feels wrong. Personally, I'd have been happy to wait an extra week or two to get Matt onto this one if it meant y'all can still maintain the work-life balance.
One thing with more obscure cards isn’t that people might not be able to evaluate them correctly. It’s that when doing the salt rating, you have to rate through a lot of chaff. So you might kind of go quickly until you see cards you recognize and then slow down and think more about where you would rate them
Frankly, Nadu's saltiness was so heavily anticipated that it actually became self-limiting. It was so obviously nonsense that at kitchen-table games people didn't even bother with it and at public games people would rarely have the audacity to try and play it - net result, most people think of it and notice they didn't have any actual negative experiences with the card, when actual experiences drive the strongest reactions. But of the people I know who have played against it, all but two loathe it so much they'd get up and leave rather than deal with it, which is a worse reaction than Armageddon or Cataclysm ever got me.
i tried to build it fair with only tap abilities that cost mana and no untaps. even then, it's insane cause it means every one of those also draws a card or ramp you. and with the intention not to break nadu, but if you get the abilitie at least 3 times in one round, you're ahead. if you get it more than 4 times per round, you won.
@@110019a really depends on the deck, if youre playing it in something similar to an orvar or feather deck such as Ivy then it can still be insanly bonkers and lead to 30 minute turns that don't win the game but get you so far ahead you might as well have won.
@@okgut2033it is still absurd unless you avoid every single way of targeting any creature and even then it's a horrible card to have to remove. Leave it in vintage cubes, the only safe place outside of cEDH.
34:05 Helm of Obedience's drop is probably due to Umbris's drop, since it's a popular card in that deck. The Helm plus any replacement effect that changes "go to graveyard" to "go to exile" (for example Leyline of the Void) becomes effectively {T}: Target opponent exiles their library.
It also tends to see play in a lot of salty cmdrs like Grand Arbiter, Sheoldred the Apocalypse and Tinybones, so as those have dropped a little it might bring it along.
I often hear some people play the salty commanders as if they think they can power down the commander in some way. The classic "it's just a Miirym dragons deck". But if you were trying to power down for a different strategy, why not choose a different commander?! Intet, the Dreamer is just a cool commander in general, and doesn't break the game so easily. I say, you can always choose different cards, if you desire a new approach. Or if you wish to not annoy other players.
I'm building a Miirym deck and the description for it is "the most average dragon pile you've ever seen." I know what Miirym do. I just do it good and there's no shame in that
I remember building a Miirym deck right when Battle for Baldur's Gate came out thinking it would be a neat alternative to a five color Ur-Dragon deck after having played with and against Ur-Dragon many times since that precon came out. Played the Miirym deck like once or twice and knew immediately it was very powerful and was surprised it went under people's radar initially. It turns out making copies of your favorite powerful dragons like the Ancient dragons, Old Gnawbone, Astral Dragon, etc. is very good, especially when there's no additional cost beyond having Miirym in play and playing said dragons.
I can see Emrakul the promised end being up there. It's a strong card that doesn't Immediately end the game (which for me is usually the biggest limiting salt factor) but combined with an exile effect the fact that it allows you to permanently exile a commander (since the controlled player doesn't get to choose to put it back into the command zone) leads to salt. It potentially takes apart one players strategy but doesn't actually kill them either. Basically the longer I have to put up with salt. The more I want a drink of water.
My thought is that Miirym, and cards like it, are very annoying if not salty. People say “it doesn’t stop you from doing your thing, I’m just doing my thing…” are missing the point I think. Yes your Miiryms, Voja’s and Korvold’s don’t directly interact with your opponents, but they do still push out other decks. When a commander is so good, generates so much value and does it so fast, it demands an answer. You can’t say “I’m not stopping you from doing your thing,” if you have 30+ power worth of dragons on the field by turn 6 because you are stopping me from doing my thing. It is kinda of hard to progress your board or do anything if you are constantly in ‘board wipe or die’ mode. I don’t want to spend the entire game trying to police your commander. And these commanders say “police me or die before you do anything.”
I want to say it’d get worse, just because everyone would be seeing it so much more often. At the same time everyone would also love running it. Idk, it might even out, but i think most of us can agree that the one ring doesn’t need to be the second sol ring.
I feel price is a huge part of this, yes. It's why Mana crypt, is so much higher than Sol ring. People feel a lot more annoyed when they feel they are losing to a wallet. A cheap card they can go and buy and use if they think it's so good. An expensive one? They can't buy it, and then keep losing to it, perfect recipe for salt.
I'll just say, I had no idea the salt voting was even going on right now. It feels like there was less advertising about it this year than previous ones, that may have something to do with the smaller amount of votes?
To your point about exposure, I feel chains of Mephistopheles should be in the winter orb/static orb/stasis tier of very salty despite hardly any play, but it is $1000 rather than $5-20. Everyone has a story about the one time they played against winter orb but who has that for chains lol Templar knights can also search for thrumming stone My brother calls Farewell 6 mana sway of stars lol
I think with the One Ring the major reasons it moved up are actually why I think it's going to keep moving up/stay up there. One is that the price has gone waaaaaaay up, strong expensive cards always get people salty(it leads into the proxy conversation and the pubstomping accusations etc). And the other reason is the presence and ubiquity of it negating any sort of novelty from seeing it at the table. Last year the card was new it came out mid 2023 so yeah it was a powerhouse and kind of expensive but it's a new card so that's still kind of fun. Now it's old and yet still everywhere and super strong and the price has like quintupled. I could see Nadu going down although I also will probably never play a game with someone playing Nadu because that sounds like a super boring experience so that might keep it up there.
Fairly or unfairly, there's definitely a slice of the player base that sees a card like The One Ring and has a reaction that is akin to feeling like their opponent is buying wins.
Taniwha is a Maori word in origin. It's actually pronounced 'tah-nee-fah' for future reference. Love the video guys, keep it up! Much love from New Zealand.
I highly appreciate this episode. I'm a control player, building my first own edh deck and it's GAAIV light stax. Knowing what is Salt inducing and what is ok, is important for me to know, so that the table has fun and I didn't waste a lot of money.
The proxy discussion is so interesting here too. I know Tabernacle is salty because if someone is playing it, they are likely just flaunting wealth. But also, the card sucks to play against, even if people are proxying it.
Theves auction is the one I am always surprised to not see. That grunds games to a halt like scrambleverse but in a even slower manner that can lead to bad feels depending on how the auctions go
I don't necessarily agree with the comment about Nadu dropping next year. Nadu has been compared to Hogaak in regards to being overpowered and coming from a Modern Horizons format and Hogaak never got that salty whereas Nadu is an objectively salty card in a colour combination that doesn't have a lot of variety so it will continue to show up pretty regularly and will always be salty
Rhystic Study is probably my saltiest card not just because the trigger is annoying but, because so many players unintentionally kingmake by not paying the 1.
@@zweis never paying is a guaranteed loss. Only really bad decks wouldn't win with so much extra draw and these decks should not run Rhystic Study. If you don't pay in cEDH or high power it is over. The only time you shouldnt pay is when you want to go for your win attempt and you don't have enough mana to pay. The issue there is that it is likely for your opponent to draw into counterspells with their Rhystic Study.
@@avall0nNn1992 yeah cEDH it's different, you definitely should pay the one. The way I see it Rhystic Study is the inverse of turn 1 Sol Ring. You either kill the player before they get enough mana to make use of all their cards or lose to the cards. To counter your point from personal experience, despite never paying the 1 I don't think I've ever had a Rhystic take over the table. Someone either clears it or the player gets one shot. The reason is I also annoyingly push for the Rhystic player to die. I make it very clear I'm never paying. Every time they draw a card I make sure to point out how many cards are in hand to increase the urgency of killing the player. If they try to point at something else being a threat I bring up that unknown information is a lot scarier than known threats. I've also never seen 2 Rhystic Studies in a casual table at once so I fear for my life because I won't know what to do
@@zweis buddy, this is a wierd approach but as long as it works out for you it super cool! I guess If you are not in a hyper focused combo meta (like I am) this could work out. I think one issue is that in my pods we have to attack the Ad Nauseum players first and there is little alternative, which would make this hard. Thanks for the insight.
Talking about smaller sample size: Was the new voting announced in a previous episode? I can't remember hearing about it and was a bit annoyed that I missed the voting, cause I was really looking forward to participate for a while now.
Real talk the only reason I'm upset about Nadu is that I wanted him to replace Risen reef in my landfall deck so I had another flier and something that said "don't touch my shit" and he's just formatted to be so painfully breakable. Nadu's parts aren't a problem by themselves if they are taken in small enough parts. As a whole he's disgusting. Once a turn, make him die to lightning bolt, only those your opponents control... there were so many ways they could've tempered him, and they didn't.
47:15 I do! It’s much more fair in that your own hand is revealed too, so you draw much less ire upon yourself than Telepathy. It deserves a lower salt score for that difference. I play it in a Vaevictus Asmadi, the Dire Unnaturals deck (sorry Matt I don’t mean to one up you on coolness)
When MH3 came out, I pulled an etched foil Nadu was excited for 2 seconds and then thought, "No one is going to want to play against this. If I build it, it's going to be exactly like my changelings deck and sit in a box to never be played because everyone hates it."
Luke warm take here! The One Ring isn't that crazy of a card for commander and people are only salty because its expensive. It might be format warping in other formats because its 1v1, but for commander, it's B tier at best. It's a sorcery speed 1 shot protection effect that for 4 mana on the turn you play it only draws you 1 card. Almost everyone is likely to greed on it and pump the burden counters higher and higher so you just help take yourself out of the game. Its like Decent into Avernus levels of damage but to yourself. And the protection effect doesnt do much because if you dont win on that turn or the next, you've only spent life for people to ignore you for a turn. Plus, plenty of cards still get around Protection. I wholeheartedly belive that if it were a bulk rare at 50c it would just be like including Nights Whisper into black decks.
Nadu needs to be reworked into being the version discussed in the podcast, giving your permanents flash, and only getting the goodie from opponent's spells targerting your creatures. But then that would set out a HUGE precedent for MTG.
Here's my (partial) salt list: 1: Elder Gargaroth. A 6/6 for five is bad enough, but it has SIX abilities. SIX abilities? Seriously it should cost at least 12 mana and have some sort of drawback with all of those abilities. 2: Guzrag. An 8/4 for 4????? Add an extra combat if it's blocked AND a built in lure? Ridiculous. 3+ in no particular further order Golos, Wrathful dragon, Lathlis. Nazgul, Rampaging Brontodon, Bonehoard Drakosaur, Author of the consuls, Y'gra Eater of all, and not last Speaker of the heavens. (All Eldrazi) The power creep has gotten silly at this point. These are just some of the worst off the top of my head. Farewell would be horrible enough if it weren't continually recycled from the graveyard over and ****ing over.
I'm new to commander, is it frowned upon to board wipe early game ? I'm talking before turn 5 or at 5. I only have done it once to slow the other boards down for mine to catch up but it seemed like I broke a law 🤣
No one likes boardwipes including myself. But everyone would gladly play them if it favors them. So just do what you need to. Everyone else will. (I only have 1 in 11 decks though)
Maybe a little. Doesn't matter, do it anyway. If people are just hand-dumping and you blow them out turn 5 by slow-rolling and casting a wrath, GOOD. This is fairly basic Magic: sweepers give a tool to control decks to deal with aggro or midrange. The other salt factor though is what kind of deck you're running it in. I dislike running 1-2 board wipes per deck because including just a couple irrespective of deck strategy feels like bad deckbuilding. If I see someone playing a hand-dumping kind of goblin deck and then they smack down a Blasphemous Act I might get annoyed because that card doesn't really belong in an aggro deck.
Price adjust these salty cards make so that this averages are weighted with the inverse of their price. I'm curious to see the results! I bet The One Ring isn't that salty after all (Necropotence is not even top100, eheh)
Imo it makes sense that specifically Badlands showed up in high Std because it wasnt so clear cut a high price tag + salty colors card and some people rated it lower because of that compared to more people actually rating the other OG duals higher. Thats my guess at least ;)
The One Ring is heading towards a ban. Virtually every deck benefits from this thing, once something is that ubiquitous and that expensive it becomes more of a gatekeeer. That aside it’s just abusable. IEven when its drawback is doing what it it’s supposed to in an intended use scenario it’s not feeling good
Badlands has a high variance likely from some people giving it high salt as a meme. It is a bad land vs people giving it a low salt score for being og duel.
Excuse you, *I* play Naked Singularity and Reality Twist and theyre perfectly fun cards that add reasonable challenges to the game like "oh gods how am i going to pay for my colored pips" and "oops this doesnt affect the colorless player at all"
Possibly hot take, i like dockside extortionist and it is an amazing comeback card when you are behind, i play it in my mono red imodane deck and don’t combo off with it so i find dockside to be quite fair.
In games most people dont want to see games go extremes. Extremely fast or Extremely slow. They want midrange and they want to be able to respond to threats. Uncounterable, ward 3+, hexproof, counterspells, and stax get old. And Voja makes games go too quickly.
@@vasylpark2149 I understand that, many factors involved for sure when it comes to EDH, my main point is there should be no rule 0 as it is today, it’s stupid, ppl should be aloud to play whatever and should not be gatekeeped out of what they consider fun, it’s subjective after all, and not to mention but, mtg in a whole regardless of format, (even the “casual edh” format) is about strategy… therefore, u should figure shit out if someone is going off wit a scary creature, run removal, playing too many spells with no payoff, run enough card draw and advantage lol it’s so simple, mtg is a puzzle and it’s not meant for babies who cry about nadu coming out or something like jumping up in joy cuz golos got banned.. which didn’t have to happen lol I rest my case
@smurffy5330 I disagree with that. If im testing a low power deck, i dont want to be pubstomped by your nearly CEDH deck. That is a mismatch in power. Even sports have leagues and tiers. You're not going to put a featherweight boxer up against a heavyweight boxer. Their power is completely different. Or in games like pokemon VGC, your all ubers team will more than likely pubstomp my underused team. Teirs and leagues exist and they should exist in commander, its just harder to quantify since its a 99+1 singleton format in a randomized deck, with 30,000+ game piece options in a four player game. We should work on establishing tiers, because not all decks are created equal. Most players want a game near the middle between two extremes of fast and slow.
@@vasylpark2149 while I agree with most of what u say towards the bottom there, I’d still like to point out that ur still kinda missing what I’m saying, I’m not tryna say ppl should play there fringe cEDH decks against pre-cons.. that would just be irresponsible lol I’m saying that I should be able to play my janky taxing combo or certain synergy’s throughout the game without someone in the middle of the 9th turn on an agreed power lvl of 7-8 (which is considered high-power) saying “u can’t do that, I thought this was power lvl 7-8” but all I did was play a 4 card jank loop of exiling a creature a turn.. nothing too crazy, just something for ppl to figure out, no hexproof or counter magic.. his solution was to concede and call me a pubstomper, so I have no sympathy anymore for anyone who complains about cardboard rectangles, and yes that’s just one example, but it’s most of the casual community lol I would know since I play in the profs server on discord and it’s full of whining 30 yo men.. 🤢🤮
A recent issue I've been having is I sit down with a deck and everyone goes "oh no, stax!" but my Thalia and Gitrog deck is gates, my Jorn is villainous wealth, and my Zur is Rebels. And theyre all bad haha
The one ring is only in the top 10 is because it's expensive and most people can't afford it. I think tpro is way more salt inducing because it's at instant speed and protects you and your board plus the fact they reprinted the effect so now you have to look out for 2 of them
I think the ubiquity and popularity of a card, mixed with it's sheer power still matters. I think both are annoying to see. But the One Ring is just potentially everywhere and fundamentally changes the game a little too much.
We're not sure it's only in the top 10 for that reason. If it was cheaper it would still be super powerful and ubiquitous, maybe more ubiquitous if it was cheap. Being pricey certainly adds to the salt though.
Lol, I went halvsies of $50 on a One Ring Bundle with a friend and only kept The One Ring, even going so far as to throw in a free Orcish Bowmasters so I could claim the Ring for myself (I had multiple Bowmasters at this point by pure luck). Best decision I made. As for my friend, one of the packs in the bundle had a second Bowmasters, so he was quite happy as well.
Cards like scrambleverse will win you the game against me, because i'll just scoop. I'd rather just lose than have to go through the process of actually resolving that thing, and then once the game concludes gets your cards back. If you even get them all back and one dosen't get shuffled into an opponents deck. Nothing makes me saltier than realizing once im home im missing cards, and having to get them back.
Comparing Miirym to Nadu - I think Nadu is worse because Miirym can be a fun challenge as it just doubles effectiveness of a dragon deck while Nadu if you don't have an immediate answer to that player is going to start taking 10 minute turns.
I finally got to participate this year (though I wanted to vote more) and almost went to 1,000. I had an easy system: 1 for spot removal 2 for wraths 3 for counterspells 4 for cards I can't stand
II felt really bad for saying no to Narset, Enlightened Master, that someone had altered to be characters from the novel he wrote, but also its Narset I am not having it. Although what I actually did was threaten to play my salt sum 66, Dragonlord Ojutai control deck.
(Dana here) If I had a nickel for every person who asked me if they could rule zero Narset, Parter of Veils and Ashiok, Dream Render as partners in the zone I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird it's happened twice.
Thank you for posting this, so i know which cards i have to play in literally every deck they can be put in. Making people irrationally angry because i don't conform to what they want me to play is my favorite thing to do. Gotta teach people to grow the fuck up
As someone who watches a lot of the top Magic content creators/gameplay channels, you can definitely see the influence they have on the community when it comes to salt ratings. There are cards that have gone up this last year that I distinctly recall being talked about as a bad or a salty card from these top channels.
The One Ring is so ubiquitously powerful and easy to abuse that every time I see it in somebody’s deck I assume the game is going to be a slog. In multiple games I have seen it stabilize the person who played it just long enough to help them clinch the win even if they played it on turn 5 or 6.
Agreed. A guy gave me a One Ring to prove I wasn’t as immune to the EDH arms race as I believed (He was right, I was wrong. I tried to give it back when I admitted that, but he said the novelty of hearing an adult admit they were wrong without being rude, and without their job being on the line in 2024 was worth way more than a 100$, so I could either keep it or he’d tear it up.) Embarrassed to admit it, but I’m playing it like a 1/3 of the time. I try to justify it that I’m only playing it against 9s/9.5s, but that’s all it is. A justification.
All this hate for boardwhipes, do people not understand the concept of "don't over extend"? There's a difference between "make them have it" and "I get blown out if they have it".
I voted for a few minutes. Didn't come across my saltiest card, Timesifter. Who's turn is it next? Not mine, because I'm that unlucky for the rest of the game.
Players I play with in CEDH get salty over nadu. It's not modern that makes people upset, it's how you have to play tons of actions or they have to forfit. You can't demonstrate a loop until very long into the loop, plus players might have interaction and dont know how or when to interact. Win turns take MAYBE 10 minutes if people make you play it out but at least pass priority and that adds to the problem as well. Nadu in a casual setting should never happen. One Ring is just a 4 mana win the game card. Its the primevil titan of CEDH, one person plays it and everyone else clones it. Somehow its seeing play at a casual table.
Revelation/Telepathy are a nightmare? I've never, ever heard that as an opinion before and we have a Telepathy player in our meta. It's a zero mana do nothing enchantment.
I’m one of the people that gave Divine Intervention a zero 😄 my reasoning is that whoever makes the (casual) game be a draw with that has essentially won because it’s a casual game so who cares let’s play another one! I don’t understand how i’m meant to be salty about that edit: if i were ever to play a tournament then it would be salty but i have no plans of ever doing that
Like the episodes with all 3 hosts way more. If there is some reason behind the scenes it doesn't happen much anymore then its understandable. Just wanted to put it out there.
Almost entirely scheduling issues, though this week it was a deadline problem where because we wanted to get the episode out within a few days of getting the data we chose to just use two hosts to make editing significantly faster.
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My deck has a overall score of 62.75 … where does this in terms of other casually high powered decks?
I’m running Animar the name of the deck on EDH Rec - is “ Buy Animar - Temur Good Stuff - High Power “
Apparently the actual top 4 were Nadu, Dockside, Jewelled Lotus and Mana Crypt
Praise be to the RC.
The saltiest card was you all along 👐
In my view, certain episodes demand all three hosts if possible, and not getting to hear Matt yell about Tergrid or the color blue for the annual Salt episode feels wrong. Personally, I'd have been happy to wait an extra week or two to get Matt onto this one if it meant y'all can still maintain the work-life balance.
Agreed
We are forced to believe Matt came around on Tergrid and made a deck
@@zach4059thats the only explanation. Guess Matt is an avid tergrid enjoyer now.
Super agree. There are so many episodes where I’m surprised that all 3 hosts aren’t present, and that exclusion is sorely missed.
These past couple months have been weird, it feels like we get more episodes with only 2 hosts than we do all 3
One thing with more obscure cards isn’t that people might not be able to evaluate them correctly. It’s that when doing the salt rating, you have to rate through a lot of chaff. So you might kind of go quickly until you see cards you recognize and then slow down and think more about where you would rate them
Very solid point.
28:30 Voxy doing her best to raise GAAIV’s salt score.
Frankly, Nadu's saltiness was so heavily anticipated that it actually became self-limiting. It was so obviously nonsense that at kitchen-table games people didn't even bother with it and at public games people would rarely have the audacity to try and play it - net result, most people think of it and notice they didn't have any actual negative experiences with the card, when actual experiences drive the strongest reactions. But of the people I know who have played against it, all but two loathe it so much they'd get up and leave rather than deal with it, which is a worse reaction than Armageddon or Cataclysm ever got me.
i tried to build it fair with only tap abilities that cost mana and no untaps.
even then, it's insane cause it means every one of those also draws a card or ramp you.
and with the intention not to break nadu, but if you get the abilitie at least 3 times in one round, you're ahead. if you get it more than 4 times per round, you won.
What about it in the 99 of s simic deck that does not have 0 equip equipment
@@110019a really depends on the deck, if youre playing it in something similar to an orvar or feather deck such as Ivy then it can still be insanly bonkers and lead to 30 minute turns that don't win the game but get you so far ahead you might as well have won.
@@okgut2033it is still absurd unless you avoid every single way of targeting any creature and even then it's a horrible card to have to remove.
Leave it in vintage cubes, the only safe place outside of cEDH.
@@110019aworks good in Gorion Adventures 🤘
34:05 Helm of Obedience's drop is probably due to Umbris's drop, since it's a popular card in that deck. The Helm plus any replacement effect that changes "go to graveyard" to "go to exile" (for example Leyline of the Void) becomes effectively {T}: Target opponent exiles their library.
It also tends to see play in a lot of salty cmdrs like Grand Arbiter, Sheoldred the Apocalypse and Tinybones, so as those have dropped a little it might bring it along.
I guess we are not really having all 3 hosts at the same time. Maybe once a month?
Busy summer schedules are just sorta lining up right again. Hopefully this this will be a bit better in Oct onward.
Next year can we get a small video to let everyone know before Salt Scoring begins?
I was lucky to get a notification for the short this year.
I only noticed because I got confused as to why my deck in archidekt had a combined saltscore of 2
This would be super
Cool. Nice fire the community to give us a heads up vid.
Yep, we'll pass on the fact that folks seemed to miss the announcement.
I often hear some people play the salty commanders as if they think they can power down the commander in some way. The classic "it's just a Miirym dragons deck". But if you were trying to power down for a different strategy, why not choose a different commander?! Intet, the Dreamer is just a cool commander in general, and doesn't break the game so easily.
I say, you can always choose different cards, if you desire a new approach. Or if you wish to not annoy other players.
I think this is why so many people respond to "it's not THAT deck" with "yeah man, it's always THAT deck."
Miirrym does not surprise me one bit. "I have a Mirrym deck, but it's different from other Mirrym decks."
Oh my sweet summer child. No. It's not.
I'm building a Miirym deck and the description for it is "the most average dragon pile you've ever seen." I know what Miirym do. I just do it good and there's no shame in that
I played against someone with a clone Miirym deck, actually a nice alternative that was still super busted xD
I'm glad when I see Miirym because I'm thankful it's not Ur-Dragon.
I remember building a Miirym deck right when Battle for Baldur's Gate came out thinking it would be a neat alternative to a five color Ur-Dragon deck after having played with and against Ur-Dragon many times since that precon came out. Played the Miirym deck like once or twice and knew immediately it was very powerful and was surprised it went under people's radar initially. It turns out making copies of your favorite powerful dragons like the Ancient dragons, Old Gnawbone, Astral Dragon, etc. is very good, especially when there's no additional cost beyond having Miirym in play and playing said dragons.
@Groovemancer yea I think they messed up on miirym. His ability should have a cost kind of like ulalek. With ulalek you have to pay 2.
38:10 In ancient Rome, a salt sum was known as *salarium,* from which the word "salary" is derived.
I can see Emrakul the promised end being up there. It's a strong card that doesn't Immediately end the game (which for me is usually the biggest limiting salt factor) but combined with an exile effect the fact that it allows you to permanently exile a commander (since the controlled player doesn't get to choose to put it back into the command zone) leads to salt. It potentially takes apart one players strategy but doesn't actually kill them either.
Basically the longer I have to put up with salt. The more I want a drink of water.
It's been our experience that really any Eldrazi Titan generates a pretty salty response.
I usually vote when this is going on, but I didn't notice this year. I'm guessing I'm not the only one since voting was down.
We'll pass that on, thanks!
Same here, it went by so fast that when I noticed the post for the Salt voting, it was already over
Oh? Is it already that time of year again? Splendid.
Badlands has the word Bad in the name
My thought is that Miirym, and cards like it, are very annoying if not salty. People say “it doesn’t stop you from doing your thing, I’m just doing my thing…” are missing the point I think. Yes your Miiryms, Voja’s and Korvold’s don’t directly interact with your opponents, but they do still push out other decks. When a commander is so good, generates so much value and does it so fast, it demands an answer. You can’t say “I’m not stopping you from doing your thing,” if you have 30+ power worth of dragons on the field by turn 6 because you are stopping me from doing my thing. It is kinda of hard to progress your board or do anything if you are constantly in ‘board wipe or die’ mode. I don’t want to spend the entire game trying to police your commander. And these commanders say “police me or die before you do anything.”
I wonder how much price plays into it. Like if the one ring dropped to $1 would it still hold the salt value?
It would get worse, I believe
I want to say it’d get worse, just because everyone would be seeing it so much more often. At the same time everyone would also love running it. Idk, it might even out, but i think most of us can agree that the one ring doesn’t need to be the second sol ring.
That’s probably part of it
Sheoldred is a better card to ask about. She's salty because she's expensive.
I feel price is a huge part of this, yes. It's why Mana crypt, is so much higher than Sol ring. People feel a lot more annoyed when they feel they are losing to a wallet. A cheap card they can go and buy and use if they think it's so good. An expensive one? They can't buy it, and then keep losing to it, perfect recipe for salt.
I'll just say, I had no idea the salt voting was even going on right now. It feels like there was less advertising about it this year than previous ones, that may have something to do with the smaller amount of votes?
Yep, we'll pass on the fact that folks seemed to miss the announcement.
To your point about exposure, I feel chains of Mephistopheles should be in the winter orb/static orb/stasis tier of very salty despite hardly any play, but it is $1000 rather than $5-20. Everyone has a story about the one time they played against winter orb but who has that for chains lol
Templar knights can also search for thrumming stone
My brother calls Farewell 6 mana sway of stars lol
No Stats have been challenged this episode. The Salt Score Stats are SUPREME.
All hail our salty overlords.
I think with the One Ring the major reasons it moved up are actually why I think it's going to keep moving up/stay up there. One is that the price has gone waaaaaaay up, strong expensive cards always get people salty(it leads into the proxy conversation and the pubstomping accusations etc). And the other reason is the presence and ubiquity of it negating any sort of novelty from seeing it at the table. Last year the card was new it came out mid 2023 so yeah it was a powerhouse and kind of expensive but it's a new card so that's still kind of fun. Now it's old and yet still everywhere and super strong and the price has like quintupled.
I could see Nadu going down although I also will probably never play a game with someone playing Nadu because that sounds like a super boring experience so that might keep it up there.
Fairly or unfairly, there's definitely a slice of the player base that sees a card like The One Ring and has a reaction that is akin to feeling like their opponent is buying wins.
They should rename it "The Pay-to-Won Ring".
That feeling is certainly a reason for some of the saltiness.
Taniwha is a Maori word in origin. It's actually pronounced 'tah-nee-fah' for future reference. Love the video guys, keep it up!
Much love from New Zealand.
Good to know, thanks!
And like that, the bird is no longer the word.
I highly appreciate this episode.
I'm a control player, building my first own edh deck and it's GAAIV light stax. Knowing what is Salt inducing and what is ok, is important for me to know, so that the table has fun and I didn't waste a lot of money.
Who else loves the analysis episodes way more? Who else is here for the "Data and Dad Jokes?" Please do more of these!
Are that many players against proxies? Whenever someone plays an ABU dual land, I assume it's not real lol
The proxy discussion is so interesting here too. I know Tabernacle is salty because if someone is playing it, they are likely just flaunting wealth. But also, the card sucks to play against, even if people are proxying it.
It probably varies wildly from location to location.
Where do you announce that salt voting is live!? I missed it again 😢
We'll pass on the fact that folks seemed to miss the announcement.
As a long term Stasis player, I am so proud of my boy.
Theves auction is the one I am always surprised to not see. That grunds games to a halt like scrambleverse but in a even slower manner that can lead to bad feels depending on how the auctions go
I don't necessarily agree with the comment about Nadu dropping next year. Nadu has been compared to Hogaak in regards to being overpowered and coming from a Modern Horizons format and Hogaak never got that salty whereas Nadu is an objectively salty card in a colour combination that doesn't have a lot of variety so it will continue to show up pretty regularly and will always be salty
Doesn't matter now lol
Rhystic Study is probably my saltiest card not just because the trigger is annoying but, because so many players unintentionally kingmake by not paying the 1.
If someone plays a Rhystic Study I'm never paying the 1 I'd rather just try to remove the player with a Rhystic Study
If I see a Rhystic Study I'm casting Steal Enchantment
@@zweis never paying is a guaranteed loss. Only really bad decks wouldn't win with so much extra draw and these decks should not run Rhystic Study. If you don't pay in cEDH or high power it is over. The only time you shouldnt pay is when you want to go for your win attempt and you don't have enough mana to pay. The issue there is that it is likely for your opponent to draw into counterspells with their Rhystic Study.
@@avall0nNn1992 yeah cEDH it's different, you definitely should pay the one.
The way I see it Rhystic Study is the inverse of turn 1 Sol Ring. You either kill the player before they get enough mana to make use of all their cards or lose to the cards.
To counter your point from personal experience, despite never paying the 1 I don't think I've ever had a Rhystic take over the table. Someone either clears it or the player gets one shot.
The reason is I also annoyingly push for the Rhystic player to die. I make it very clear I'm never paying. Every time they draw a card I make sure to point out how many cards are in hand to increase the urgency of killing the player. If they try to point at something else being a threat I bring up that unknown information is a lot scarier than known threats.
I've also never seen 2 Rhystic Studies in a casual table at once so I fear for my life because I won't know what to do
@@zweis buddy, this is a wierd approach but as long as it works out for you it super cool! I guess If you are not in a hyper focused combo meta (like I am) this could work out. I think one issue is that in my pods we have to attack the Ad Nauseum players first and there is little alternative, which would make this hard. Thanks for the insight.
*slow clap* for Dana's dad joke
You guys need to leave the salt ranking period open longer. I saw the announcement two days after it was posted and the voting period already ended.
Noted, we'll see if we can do a better job announcing it next year.
Talking about smaller sample size: Was the new voting announced in a previous episode? I can't remember hearing about it and was a bit annoyed that I missed the voting, cause I was really looking forward to participate for a while now.
My favourite time of the year! Telling people not to play their favourite cards!!!
So juicy ❤❤❤
Is there anyway to get that excel spreadsheet off all the cards…Please!
No one in the comments, that's makes me salty
We're making our own salt now.
No Matt, no Challenge the Stats, i demand a refound
Don't blame us, blame his parole officer.
That wasn't a serious comment by the way. Matt's parole officer is a very understanding guy.
@@EDHRECast let me guess, his parole officer is an Azorius player.
Real talk the only reason I'm upset about Nadu is that I wanted him to replace Risen reef in my landfall deck so I had another flier and something that said "don't touch my shit" and he's just formatted to be so painfully breakable. Nadu's parts aren't a problem by themselves if they are taken in small enough parts. As a whole he's disgusting. Once a turn, make him die to lightning bolt, only those your opponents control... there were so many ways they could've tempered him, and they didn't.
47:15 I do! It’s much more fair in that your own hand is revealed too, so you draw much less ire upon yourself than Telepathy. It deserves a lower salt score for that difference. I play it in a Vaevictus Asmadi, the Dire Unnaturals deck (sorry Matt I don’t mean to one up you on coolness)
When MH3 came out, I pulled an etched foil Nadu was excited for 2 seconds and then thought, "No one is going to want to play against this. If I build it, it's going to be exactly like my changelings deck and sit in a box to never be played because everyone hates it."
Hell yeah Dana repping them Lions? One pride baby
He should take that Barry Sanders jersey onto Antiques Roadshow.
Nice!! My "how to piss off everyone on spelltable" episode is up.
Stop bitching, mtg is a card game, and if cardboard is making u wanna kick rocks, then don’t fucking play the game lmao
Luke warm take here!
The One Ring isn't that crazy of a card for commander and people are only salty because its expensive. It might be format warping in other formats because its 1v1, but for commander, it's B tier at best.
It's a sorcery speed 1 shot protection effect that for 4 mana on the turn you play it only draws you 1 card. Almost everyone is likely to greed on it and pump the burden counters higher and higher so you just help take yourself out of the game. Its like Decent into Avernus levels of damage but to yourself. And the protection effect doesnt do much because if you dont win on that turn or the next, you've only spent life for people to ignore you for a turn. Plus, plenty of cards still get around Protection.
I wholeheartedly belive that if it were a bulk rare at 50c it would just be like including Nights Whisper into black decks.
Yes I’ve been waiting for this episode.
Nadu needs to be reworked into being the version discussed in the podcast, giving your permanents flash, and only getting the goodie from opponent's spells targerting your creatures. But then that would set out a HUGE precedent for MTG.
The One Ring's burden counters should've worked like chandra's ping emblem. Oh well, hindsight 20/20
When was salt scoring? I swear I was on the website a good amount this last week and never saw the notice on the site
Here's my (partial) salt list:
1: Elder Gargaroth. A 6/6 for five is bad enough, but it has SIX abilities. SIX abilities? Seriously it should cost at least 12 mana and have some sort of drawback with all of those abilities.
2: Guzrag. An 8/4 for 4????? Add an extra combat if it's blocked AND a built in lure? Ridiculous.
3+ in no particular further order Golos, Wrathful dragon, Lathlis. Nazgul, Rampaging Brontodon, Bonehoard Drakosaur, Author of the consuls, Y'gra Eater of all, and not last Speaker of the heavens. (All Eldrazi)
The power creep has gotten silly at this point.
These are just some of the worst off the top of my head.
Farewell would be horrible enough if it weren't continually recycled from the graveyard over and ****ing over.
I'm new to commander, is it frowned upon to board wipe early game ? I'm talking before turn 5 or at 5. I only have done it once to slow the other boards down for mine to catch up but it seemed like I broke a law 🤣
No one likes boardwipes including myself. But everyone would gladly play them if it favors them. So just do what you need to. Everyone else will. (I only have 1 in 11 decks though)
Maybe a little. Doesn't matter, do it anyway. If people are just hand-dumping and you blow them out turn 5 by slow-rolling and casting a wrath, GOOD. This is fairly basic Magic: sweepers give a tool to control decks to deal with aggro or midrange.
The other salt factor though is what kind of deck you're running it in. I dislike running 1-2 board wipes per deck because including just a couple irrespective of deck strategy feels like bad deckbuilding. If I see someone playing a hand-dumping kind of goblin deck and then they smack down a Blasphemous Act I might get annoyed because that card doesn't really belong in an aggro deck.
Flare of Fortitude is by far the best Flare. Surprisingly second best is duplication, Malce, Denial then Cultivation
I'm the one who played them but my playgroup would have put Zur the Enchanter and Rule of Law at a solid 4 because that deck was a menace.
Price adjust these salty cards make so that this averages are weighted with the inverse of their price. I'm curious to see the results! I bet The One Ring isn't that salty after all (Necropotence is not even top100, eheh)
Already, well glad i got something to hear on trafic
Where do we see the theme for the deckbuilding contest for October? I couldn't find it on the website.
Imo it makes sense that specifically Badlands showed up in high Std because it wasnt so clear cut a high price tag + salty colors card and some people rated it lower because of that compared to more people actually rating the other OG duals higher.
Thats my guess at least ;)
That makes as much sense as anything.
What a timing for Nadu on the thumbnail
The One Ring is heading towards a ban. Virtually every deck benefits from this thing, once something is that ubiquitous and that expensive it becomes more of a gatekeeer. That aside it’s just abusable. IEven when its drawback is doing what it it’s supposed to in an intended use scenario it’s not feeling good
Badlands has a high variance likely from some people giving it high salt as a meme. It is a bad land vs people giving it a low salt score for being og duel.
The Boaty McBoatface of EDH.
I have a feeling Nadu won't be a problem anymore
Excuse you, *I* play Naked Singularity and Reality Twist and theyre perfectly fun cards that add reasonable challenges to the game like "oh gods how am i going to pay for my colored pips" and "oops this doesnt affect the colorless player at all"
Possibly hot take, i like dockside extortionist and it is an amazing comeback card when you are behind, i play it in my mono red imodane deck and don’t combo off with it so i find dockside to be quite fair.
There's a lot of cards that are fair in pretty narrow situations. Black Lotus is pretty fair on T10 when you're hellbent.
How would naked singularity work with triomes'?
In games most people dont want to see games go extremes. Extremely fast or Extremely slow. They want midrange and they want to be able to respond to threats. Uncounterable, ward 3+, hexproof, counterspells, and stax get old. And Voja makes games go too quickly.
Womp Womp, I just hear someone bitching about cardboard lmao 🤡🗿
@smurffy5330 i just made an observation about the games most people want to play. I have people in game store who play stax and voja.
@@vasylpark2149 I understand that, many factors involved for sure when it comes to EDH, my main point is there should be no rule 0 as it is today, it’s stupid, ppl should be aloud to play whatever and should not be gatekeeped out of what they consider fun, it’s subjective after all, and not to mention but, mtg in a whole regardless of format, (even the “casual edh” format) is about strategy… therefore, u should figure shit out if someone is going off wit a scary creature, run removal, playing too many spells with no payoff, run enough card draw and advantage lol it’s so simple, mtg is a puzzle and it’s not meant for babies who cry about nadu coming out or something like jumping up in joy cuz golos got banned.. which didn’t have to happen lol I rest my case
@smurffy5330 I disagree with that. If im testing a low power deck, i dont want to be pubstomped by your nearly CEDH deck. That is a mismatch in power.
Even sports have leagues and tiers. You're not going to put a featherweight boxer up against a heavyweight boxer. Their power is completely different.
Or in games like pokemon VGC, your all ubers team will more than likely pubstomp my underused team.
Teirs and leagues exist and they should exist in commander, its just harder to quantify since its a 99+1 singleton format in a randomized deck, with 30,000+ game piece options in a four player game. We should work on establishing tiers, because not all decks are created equal. Most players want a game near the middle between two extremes of fast and slow.
@@vasylpark2149 while I agree with most of what u say towards the bottom there, I’d still like to point out that ur still kinda missing what I’m saying, I’m not tryna say ppl should play there fringe cEDH decks against pre-cons.. that would just be irresponsible lol I’m saying that I should be able to play my janky taxing combo or certain synergy’s throughout the game without someone in the middle of the 9th turn on an agreed power lvl of 7-8 (which is considered high-power) saying “u can’t do that, I thought this was power lvl 7-8” but all I did was play a 4 card jank loop of exiling a creature a turn.. nothing too crazy, just something for ppl to figure out, no hexproof or counter magic.. his solution was to concede and call me a pubstomper, so I have no sympathy anymore for anyone who complains about cardboard rectangles, and yes that’s just one example, but it’s most of the casual community lol I would know since I play in the profs server on discord and it’s full of whining 30 yo men.. 🤢🤮
A recent issue I've been having is I sit down with a deck and everyone goes "oh no, stax!" but my Thalia and Gitrog deck is gates, my Jorn is villainous wealth, and my Zur is Rebels. And theyre all bad haha
As the old phrase goes "your reputation precedes you" can be applied to all of these
The one ring is only in the top 10 is because it's expensive and most people can't afford it. I think tpro is way more salt inducing because it's at instant speed and protects you and your board plus the fact they reprinted the effect so now you have to look out for 2 of them
I think the ubiquity and popularity of a card, mixed with it's sheer power still matters. I think both are annoying to see. But the One Ring is just potentially everywhere and fundamentally changes the game a little too much.
We're not sure it's only in the top 10 for that reason. If it was cheaper it would still be super powerful and ubiquitous, maybe more ubiquitous if it was cheap. Being pricey certainly adds to the salt though.
I literally only bought the LOTR bundle for The One Ring. Everything else was just icing on the cake
Lol, I went halvsies of $50 on a One Ring Bundle with a friend and only kept The One Ring, even going so far as to throw in a free Orcish Bowmasters so I could claim the Ring for myself (I had multiple Bowmasters at this point by pure luck). Best decision I made. As for my friend, one of the packs in the bundle had a second Bowmasters, so he was quite happy as well.
I have regrets
(Dana here) I picked up two for decks and both were bundles. At the time I felt like an idiot buying bundles just for one card . . .
I get Vorinclex being salty, but realistically it’s just a green extra turn spell, it has no business being saltier than expropriate.
Cards like scrambleverse will win you the game against me, because i'll just scoop. I'd rather just lose than have to go through the process of actually resolving that thing, and then once the game concludes gets your cards back. If you even get them all back and one dosen't get shuffled into an opponents deck. Nothing makes me saltier than realizing once im home im missing cards, and having to get them back.
The salt that comes on Sarulf, Realm Eater is real. Had to stop playing it cuz it was no fun for everyone else, fun for me though.
Comparing Miirym to Nadu - I think Nadu is worse because Miirym can be a fun challenge as it just doubles effectiveness of a dragon deck while Nadu if you don't have an immediate answer to that player is going to start taking 10 minute turns.
I finally got to participate this year (though I wanted to vote more) and almost went to 1,000.
I had an easy system:
1 for spot removal
2 for wraths
3 for counterspells
4 for cards I can't stand
II felt really bad for saying no to Narset, Enlightened Master, that someone had altered to be characters from the novel he wrote, but also its Narset I am not having it. Although what I actually did was threaten to play my salt sum 66, Dragonlord Ojutai control deck.
(Dana here) If I had a nickel for every person who asked me if they could rule zero Narset, Parter of Veils and Ashiok, Dream Render as partners in the zone I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird it's happened twice.
Thank you for posting this, so i know which cards i have to play in literally every deck they can be put in. Making people irrationally angry because i don't conform to what they want me to play is my favorite thing to do. Gotta teach people to grow the fuck up
Not sure that sounds terribly health, but you do you.
@@EDHRECast Whats not healthy is commander players thinking they get to dictate to everybody else how they will play the game
@@spudster8887 Ok.
Fairwell is nice
11:02 why does Heralds horn have more decks but lower percantage.
And why does Senseis have less total deck when all are colorless
I absolutly love Tergrid its a good card.
As someone who watches a lot of the top Magic content creators/gameplay channels, you can definitely see the influence they have on the community when it comes to salt ratings. There are cards that have gone up this last year that I distinctly recall being talked about as a bad or a salty card from these top channels.
Is it that they influence stuff, or do they just identify the stuff community dislike and jump on hate?
@@Russian_engineer_bmstu They both feed into each other
The One Ring is so ubiquitously powerful and easy to abuse that every time I see it in somebody’s deck I assume the game is going to be a slog. In multiple games I have seen it stabilize the person who played it just long enough to help them clinch the win even if they played it on turn 5 or 6.
Agreed. A guy gave me a One Ring to prove I wasn’t as immune to the EDH arms race as I believed (He was right, I was wrong. I tried to give it back when I admitted that, but he said the novelty of hearing an adult admit they were wrong without being rude, and without their job being on the line in 2024 was worth way more than a 100$, so I could either keep it or he’d tear it up.)
Embarrassed to admit it, but I’m playing it like a 1/3 of the time. I try to justify it that I’m only playing it against 9s/9.5s, but that’s all it is. A justification.
I would vote fairwell, it breaks alot of my casual decks that dont have blue in them for counter spells
All this hate for boardwhipes, do people not understand the concept of "don't over extend"? There's a difference between "make them have it" and "I get blown out if they have it".
I voted for a few minutes. Didn't come across my saltiest card, Timesifter. Who's turn is it next? Not mine, because I'm that unlucky for the rest of the game.
I have a player who runs Winter Orb in his only deck. It’s gone from annoying to angering.
Yeah, it showing up high on the list is never a shock.
Yo here we go!!! Why so salty??
I think we should bring back heavy stax... give people something to really complain about.
Make them Miss Mana Crypt and Dockside.
Everything Ygra eats turns to salt so…makes sense to me 😂
They should just use the salt list as a suggested high power list instead of maintaining a ban list.
I fully agree with giving every graveyard hate card a 4.
Players I play with in CEDH get salty over nadu. It's not modern that makes people upset, it's how you have to play tons of actions or they have to forfit. You can't demonstrate a loop until very long into the loop, plus players might have interaction and dont know how or when to interact. Win turns take MAYBE 10 minutes if people make you play it out but at least pass priority and that adds to the problem as well. Nadu in a casual setting should never happen. One Ring is just a 4 mana win the game card. Its the primevil titan of CEDH, one person plays it and everyone else clones it. Somehow its seeing play at a casual table.
3daylater: Well, this is awkward....
Telepathy being blue is why it's salty
Basic island, saltiest card ever.
Badlands is a bad land. Gotta rate that high salt
Revelation/Telepathy are a nightmare? I've never, ever heard that as an opinion before and we have a Telepathy player in our meta. It's a zero mana do nothing enchantment.
I’m one of the people that gave Divine Intervention a zero 😄 my reasoning is that whoever makes the (casual) game be a draw with that has essentially won because it’s a casual game so who cares let’s play another one! I don’t understand how i’m meant to be salty about that edit: if i were ever to play a tournament then it would be salty but i have no plans of ever doing that
Farewell needed to cost more mana or not have modes(it always wipes everything)
What? No, the cost is perfect. More and it's unplayable, and less and it's broken.
U can interact with it on the stack, stop bitching about cardboard 🗿
Also, that’s what a board wipe does genius
@@smurffy5330Just have the answer 4head.
@@geek593 wrong person, what are u talking about?
Nadu = worse than primeval titan. And sits in the command zone
😂mean salt score, got to love statistics
Like the episodes with all 3 hosts way more. If there is some reason behind the scenes it doesn't happen much anymore then its understandable. Just wanted to put it out there.
Almost entirely scheduling issues, though this week it was a deadline problem where because we wanted to get the episode out within a few days of getting the data we chose to just use two hosts to make editing significantly faster.