So as channel members know, i make the region and Targaryen videos about five week ahead of time, with these Sunday ones about two weeks ahead of time given they take a lot more work. The main reason i do this is so incase something happens like equipment failer or illness that prevents me from making videos, i have a decent buffer so you guys still get the normal amount of videos per week. I've only ever had to eat into this buffer once or twice. for the last week i've had what the NHS have called super flu, my whole family have had it, and honestly it hit me harder than when i had Covid. This video was made when i was back on the mend but my voice may sound a little different because i was still in the process of getting better. So if anyone is wondering why it sound slightly different that why. If anyone rememberers back to 2022, you may recall i had to remake a few video because i lost my voice and tried to carry on, which is why i've been so careful to create this emergency video buffer.
I hope you get well soon if you still haven’t already. I too got the flu from visiting family over the holidays, just like most other people too. And please don’t worry too much about us the viewers, the gods know you’ve been good to us for like 4-5 years now. People that have been here for years will understand. Thank you for all the work you’ve done, the books aren’t short and simple things.. we appreciate you
Every time I see one of these theories I’m like “BRO NOT EVERYONE IS RELATED” then I think about how actual feudal elite society worked and I’m like “… ya know now that you mention it “
You forgot one rather unlikely candidate, Vaella, Daeron's daughter. As she was simple-minded, it would not have been a "waste" to marry her to a Tarth.
Approaching this from the Realism standpoint, logically, every house in Westeros should be related to the Targaryens to some degree, in one way or another.
Well, usually yes, but considering the incest within house Targaryen, it was more likely for a Targaryen to marry their siblings than an outsider. And the dance of the dragons as well as the many deaths of Daeron II descendants shrinked the amount of existing Targaryens drastically. And there are probably thousands of people descended from some Targaryen, but many of them gonna be peasants or not aware of it.
@@adaroez And in nearly every generation we actively see in the series, at least one of the current Targaryens has married someone who ISN'T a sibling, starting with the first generation after the Conquest, and many of those marriages produced live children. Just looking at the Official Family Tree, there are 21 official marriages outside the family, and that doesn't even include the potential of royal bastards born by nobly born mistresses (outside Aegon the Unworthy's brood, since they get actually listed in the Official Tree) who were officially considered part of their mother's houses instead of formally recognized.
The idea that Dunk fathered a bastard on one of Egg's sisters, then He, Egg, and the sister conspired to commit paternity fraud on House Tarth is ludicrous. Firstly Egg wouldn't do this, as even as a boy in the three novellas we have so far, he was keenly aware of how precarious House Targaryen's hold on power was without dragons. If they got caught trying to pass off the bastard of a former hedge knight from Flea Bottom as heir to Tarth, it's likely there would have been a full on rebellion. After all, If House Targaryen was willing to wipe out an ancient bloodline like House Tarth, whose house is next? Egg would see the threat and wouldn't risk his family's place in Westeros to save the honor of his sister and BFF, and neither would Maekar who isn't all that pleased with Dunk in the first place. Heck just the fact that Dunk impregnated a Targaryen princess would likely leave the noble houses howling for his blood. At the very least they'd want him castrated and sent to the Wall like Lucamore Strong when he broke his kingsguard, yet GRRM has confirmed that Dunk and Egg both die at Summerhall and Dunk is still Lord Commander at that time. That can't happen if Dunk knocks up one of Egg's sisters. And finally there is the Tarth side of the equation. I agree a royal match would be a desirable thing for them, but not enough to wipe out thousands of years of Tarths passing on Evenfall Hall and the title of Evenstar to their own blood. To the Westerosi bloodlines and names are everything. No lord or lady would knowingly wipe out their own line, no matter what was offered in return. Tricking lord Tarth is also unlikely as the Targaryen insistence on a quickie marriage would raise eyebrows. Even the hint of bastardy would cause scandal, which would spread throughout the Seven Kingdoms. No way to keep that from Brienne, even generations later. No, the whole idea is stupid. There are plenty of other ways for Dunk to be Brienne's ancestor and for her to have Targaryen blood. The most likely is that Dunk is her ancestor on one side of her family, while the Targaryen blood comes from the other. My guess is that it's her mother that has the blood of the dragon, as we know so little about her. My favorite theory is that Brienne's mother or grandmother was a child of Prince Duncan and Lady Jenny. Another theory I came up with, that I personally hate but seems plausible, is that Brienne's mother was a bastard of the Mad King with one of his highborn mistresses, closer in age to Rhaegar than Viserys and Dany. We know lords like Lionel Corbrey and Gawen Westerling are willing to demean themselves to marry wealthy merchant's daughters with huge dowries. I could see Aerys or his Hand, Tywin, giving the baby girl an equally impressive dowry for Selwyn to marry her and keep her away from court for appearances sake. Again, I pray I'm wrong as that would mean Jaime killed Brienne's grandfather, but that's just the sort of twisted reveal GRRM is known for, and it' a heck of a lot more likely than Dunk and Egg playing fast and loose with the stability of the Seven Kingdoms and risking civil war to hide an affair.
Yeah, I agree tbh, this sounds very sensical Though, I'd like more info on the possibility of Prince Daeron and Lady Jenny. I forget their history, wasn't he promised to a noble lady but chose a common girl instead? Or am I mixing up my Targaryens again?
@@thalmoragent9344 It was Prince Duncan. He was named after Ser Duncan the Tall. He fell in love with Jenny of Oldstones, a common girl from the Riverlands who lived by herself in the ruins of an old castle from the days of the First Men and claimed to be a descendent of First Men kings. She traveled with a woodswitch who Jenny claimed to be a Child of the Forest and who gave the prophesy that the Prince That Was Promised would come from Aerys and Rhaella's line. The love story of Prince Duncan and Jenny is the source of Jenny's song, the one that Pod sings before the second Long Night in the show and which the Ghost of High Heart makes the Brotherhood without Banners sing to her when they come for her prophesies. Catelyn and Littlefinger used to play Duncan and Jenny when young, and the story is considered one of the great love stories of Westeros.
@arianweneverett3910 Ah, yeah thanks for the reminder, definitely got a great refresher. Man, if George ever makes Fire and Blood Part 2 before he passes away...oof, I hope it goes super in depth with these other kings and their family like it did in the first book. But hey, I like this theory, I think it could have some credence for sure.
The interesting question here is how Duncan sired a child with a member of House Tarth or (more likely, I think) how a descendant of Duncan married into the Tarth family. The Targaryen contribution seems tacked on. People seem to sleep on the fact that Arlen of Pennytree, whom Duncan trained under in his youth, came from a village (Pennytree, of course) that borders the Blackwood and Bracken lands, but is actually a tiny royal fiefdom, not belonging to either of those families. Suggests to me that Aegon V carved Pennytree out as a sentimental favor to Duncan. I think it’s very possible that he had a family there, well away from the prying eyes at court. I think that’s where the link with Tarth is.
Brienne could also descend from Vaella Targaryen, daughter of Daeron the Drunken, since her claim to the throne was dismissed immediately when the realm needed a successor to Maekar and she was stated to be simpleminded, she wasn't a good match for a great house or house Targaryen itself, despite her father. But a lesser one like house Tarth is another matter, and Aegon did marry off his children to secure support from other houses, his niece would also be a small bargaining chip. Simpleminded and far removed from the throne would also explain why she's not mentioned by present day Tarth's. I'm NOT suggesting that Ser Duncan had a child with Vaella, as she was about 25 years younger than him, but Duncan could have fathered a child with another ancestor of Brienne's that was also of house Tarth (cousin marriage isn't unheard of in westeros, so a descendant of Duncan could marry one of Vaella's). But that's just another option.
The Kingsguard will always seem odd to us because the idea of honor as a reward is essentially nothing in our society. While for them it would mean your named down in history for centuries if not millennia.
He already had a family and kids and G.🐢🐢M. wanted to leave some things for later books(lmao). But don’t hold your breath waiting, I’ve stopped waiting for books years ago and started to wait for a kicked over bucket so someone else could actually finish it. There are thousands of pages already written, notes, chapters and plots that work and others that go nowhere. I love his work but the man got so rich that he has other obligations nowadays, sadly I’m sure of it.
Being a knight was everything to dunk. And he may never have actually been knighted. But there's a good chance he was already a kingsguard before aegon v was crowned. At least I think. Because of the 3rd or 4th blackfyre rebellion I forget which. But if it happened before egg was king then it makes sense why he'd feel it was his only way to truly achieve his knighthood he originally lied about
It would be cool if she was! She Carry’s a sense of honor & valor that he did .. For the lord commander !!! & the lord commander All my brothers in black ranging north of the wall !!! Brother Bittersteel the Wine is on me …. I hope George Finishes the Dunk & Egg stories so we can find out EXACTLY how he dies .. AEGON IV too
I haven't read any of the source materials myself so I'm very uncertain about what I'm about to say, which is: From what little I remember of Ser Duncun, I'm not entirely sure he would have been willing to have an affair *with* his friend's sister(s). There is another story that I love called "The Heralds of Valdemar", in the story of Vanyel (a powerful mage) we find a King who is ill and unable to provide an heir due to that illness. So, to prevent the Kingdom from falling apart, as a succession crisis at that time period would have had massive repercussions, the King asked Vanyel (they were very close friends) to secretly have an affair with his wife to provide the Kingdom an heir (this worked in part because the Queen was of blue blood as well). In that situation there was no scandalous "cheating" in the relationships between these three characters, instead it was considered an urgent matter of honor. My thinking is that House Tarth may have had any number of potential difficulties in creating an heir within their Targaryan match, and Ser Duncun the Tall was asked to intervene. Like I said earlier, the little I remember of him suggested to me that while his character was perhaps a bit carefree, I'm hesitant to say he would have been willingly insulting to either Aegon V his friend, or to House Tarth by overstepping with either sister. Another possibility I just thought of is that Ser Duncun and the Targaryan woman married into House Tarth may not have actually been involved with each other at all. GRRM said that Brienne has ancestry from both Ser Duncun and a Targaryan, but I don't think he actually said that they were actually paired together in that heritage. Ser Duncun could have slept with another woman in House Tarth who had a descendent remarry into Brienne's specific ancestral line, after the established Targaryan match. Anyway, thanks for the videos as always!
Or simply could just be that by some confusion they think Duncan a Targaryen due to him being with Egg. Then they hide the do not brag on the Dunk bastard
i have the books but what i struggle with at the moment im currently reading 3 of the books. Im furthest on the first book GoT but i started Fire and Blood now i started A Knight of The Seven Kingdoms.
I don't like the idea of Brienne being Dunk's descendant, they're both my favorites characters in the series but the implication that there is some genetic or prophetic reason for them being so good and chivalrous doesnt sit right with me. The main theme of Dunk's story imo is how this nobody from Flea Bottom who is very likely not a real knight represents the ideals of chivalry much better than all the noble sers, and the idea that Brienne is like that as well because her ancestor was really diminishes both of their arcs imo
I think Brienne is a descendant of Vaella Targaryen. They could have had a bastard daughter, and she could have been sent to the Tarths to be hidden, then she later marry the Lord.
So as channel members know, i make the region and Targaryen videos about five week ahead of time, with these Sunday ones about two weeks ahead of time given they take a lot more work. The main reason i do this is so incase something happens like equipment failer or illness that prevents me from making videos, i have a decent buffer so you guys still get the normal amount of videos per week. I've only ever had to eat into this buffer once or twice. for the last week i've had what the NHS have called super flu, my whole family have had it, and honestly it hit me harder than when i had Covid. This video was made when i was back on the mend but my voice may sound a little different because i was still in the process of getting better. So if anyone is wondering why it sound slightly different that why. If anyone rememberers back to 2022, you may recall i had to remake a few video because i lost my voice and tried to carry on, which is why i've been so careful to create this emergency video buffer.
🏰🖤
I hope you get well soon if you still haven’t already. I too got the flu from visiting family over the holidays, just like most other people too. And please don’t worry too much about us the viewers, the gods know you’ve been good to us for like 4-5 years now. People that have been here for years will understand. Thank you for all the work you’ve done, the books aren’t short and simple things.. we appreciate you
Every time I see one of these theories I’m like “BRO NOT EVERYONE IS RELATED” then I think about how actual feudal elite society worked and I’m like “… ya know now that you mention it “
You forgot one rather unlikely candidate, Vaella, Daeron's daughter. As she was simple-minded, it would not have been a "waste" to marry her to a Tarth.
Approaching this from the Realism standpoint, logically, every house in Westeros should be related to the Targaryens to some degree, in one way or another.
Well, usually yes, but considering the incest within house Targaryen, it was more likely for a Targaryen to marry their siblings than an outsider. And the dance of the dragons as well as the many deaths of Daeron II descendants shrinked the amount of existing Targaryens drastically. And there are probably thousands of people descended from some Targaryen, but many of them gonna be peasants or not aware of it.
@@adaroez And in nearly every generation we actively see in the series, at least one of the current Targaryens has married someone who ISN'T a sibling, starting with the first generation after the Conquest, and many of those marriages produced live children. Just looking at the Official Family Tree, there are 21 official marriages outside the family, and that doesn't even include the potential of royal bastards born by nobly born mistresses (outside Aegon the Unworthy's brood, since they get actually listed in the Official Tree) who were officially considered part of their mother's houses instead of formally recognized.
@@adaroez Targaryen's sow a lot of seed
She is stronger than I am. The realization chilled him.
not gonna lie i almost went with that one, but felt like i need something longer for the intro
@ I think that say everything you need to know about Brienne.
The idea that Dunk fathered a bastard on one of Egg's sisters, then He, Egg, and the sister conspired to commit paternity fraud on House Tarth is ludicrous. Firstly Egg wouldn't do this, as even as a boy in the three novellas we have so far, he was keenly aware of how precarious House Targaryen's hold on power was without dragons. If they got caught trying to pass off the bastard of a former hedge knight from Flea Bottom as heir to Tarth, it's likely there would have been a full on rebellion. After all, If House Targaryen was willing to wipe out an ancient bloodline like House Tarth, whose house is next?
Egg would see the threat and wouldn't risk his family's place in Westeros to save the honor of his sister and BFF, and neither would Maekar who isn't all that pleased with Dunk in the first place. Heck just the fact that Dunk impregnated a Targaryen princess would likely leave the noble houses howling for his blood. At the very least they'd want him castrated and sent to the Wall like Lucamore Strong when he broke his kingsguard, yet GRRM has confirmed that Dunk and Egg both die at Summerhall and Dunk is still Lord Commander at that time. That can't happen if Dunk knocks up one of Egg's sisters.
And finally there is the Tarth side of the equation. I agree a royal match would be a desirable thing for them, but not enough to wipe out thousands of years of Tarths passing on Evenfall Hall and the title of Evenstar to their own blood. To the Westerosi bloodlines and names are everything. No lord or lady would knowingly wipe out their own line, no matter what was offered in return. Tricking lord Tarth is also unlikely as the Targaryen insistence on a quickie marriage would raise eyebrows. Even the hint of bastardy would cause scandal, which would spread throughout the Seven Kingdoms. No way to keep that from Brienne, even generations later. No, the whole idea is stupid.
There are plenty of other ways for Dunk to be Brienne's ancestor and for her to have Targaryen blood. The most likely is that Dunk is her ancestor on one side of her family, while the Targaryen blood comes from the other. My guess is that it's her mother that has the blood of the dragon, as we know so little about her. My favorite theory is that Brienne's mother or grandmother was a child of Prince Duncan and Lady Jenny. Another theory I came up with, that I personally hate but seems plausible, is that Brienne's mother was a bastard of the Mad King with one of his highborn mistresses, closer in age to Rhaegar than Viserys and Dany. We know lords like Lionel Corbrey and Gawen Westerling are willing to demean themselves to marry wealthy merchant's daughters with huge dowries. I could see Aerys or his Hand, Tywin, giving the baby girl an equally impressive dowry for Selwyn to marry her and keep her away from court for appearances sake. Again, I pray I'm wrong as that would mean Jaime killed Brienne's grandfather, but that's just the sort of twisted reveal GRRM is known for, and it' a heck of a lot more likely than Dunk and Egg playing fast and loose with the stability of the Seven Kingdoms and risking civil war to hide an affair.
Yeah, I agree tbh, this sounds very sensical
Though, I'd like more info on the possibility of Prince Daeron and Lady Jenny. I forget their history, wasn't he promised to a noble lady but chose a common girl instead?
Or am I mixing up my Targaryens again?
@@thalmoragent9344 It was Prince Duncan. He was named after Ser Duncan the Tall. He fell in love with Jenny of Oldstones, a common girl from the Riverlands who lived by herself in the ruins of an old castle from the days of the First Men and claimed to be a descendent of First Men kings. She traveled with a woodswitch who Jenny claimed to be a Child of the Forest and who gave the prophesy that the Prince That Was Promised would come from Aerys and Rhaella's line. The love story of Prince Duncan and Jenny is the source of Jenny's song, the one that Pod sings before the second Long Night in the show and which the Ghost of High Heart makes the Brotherhood without Banners sing to her when they come for her prophesies. Catelyn and Littlefinger used to play Duncan and Jenny when young, and the story is considered one of the great love stories of Westeros.
@arianweneverett3910
Ah, yeah thanks for the reminder, definitely got a great refresher.
Man, if George ever makes Fire and Blood Part 2 before he passes away...oof, I hope it goes super in depth with these other kings and their family like it did in the first book.
But hey, I like this theory, I think it could have some credence for sure.
The interesting question here is how Duncan sired a child with a member of House Tarth or (more likely, I think) how a descendant of Duncan married into the Tarth family. The Targaryen contribution seems tacked on.
People seem to sleep on the fact that Arlen of Pennytree, whom Duncan trained under in his youth, came from a village (Pennytree, of course) that borders the Blackwood and Bracken lands, but is actually a tiny royal fiefdom, not belonging to either of those families.
Suggests to me that Aegon V carved Pennytree out as a sentimental favor to Duncan. I think it’s very possible that he had a family there, well away from the prying eyes at court. I think that’s where the link with Tarth is.
i agree
Brienne could also descend from Vaella Targaryen, daughter of Daeron the Drunken, since her claim to the throne was dismissed immediately when the realm needed a successor to Maekar and she was stated to be simpleminded, she wasn't a good match for a great house or house Targaryen itself, despite her father.
But a lesser one like house Tarth is another matter, and Aegon did marry off his children to secure support from other houses, his niece would also be a small bargaining chip. Simpleminded and far removed from the throne would also explain why she's not mentioned by present day Tarth's.
I'm NOT suggesting that Ser Duncan had a child with Vaella, as she was about 25 years younger than him, but Duncan could have fathered a child with another ancestor of Brienne's that was also of house Tarth (cousin marriage isn't unheard of in westeros, so a descendant of Duncan could marry one of Vaella's).
But that's just another option.
In Ck3 game of throne mod Daella is married to house tarh and even has a son named Aemon Tarth
1st to take the Black for House Blackfyre 🗡
I just wanted to beat rue along with the Hodor to theory because it would be hilarious
I don’t understand why he joined the kingsguard like you can still be friends with the King and royal family and not be part of the Kingsguard
The Kingsguard will always seem odd to us because the idea of honor as a reward is essentially nothing in our society. While for them it would mean your named down in history for centuries if not millennia.
He already had a family and kids and G.🐢🐢M. wanted to leave some things for later books(lmao). But don’t hold your breath waiting, I’ve stopped waiting for books years ago and started to wait for a kicked over bucket so someone else could actually finish it. There are thousands of pages already written, notes, chapters and plots that work and others that go nowhere. I love his work but the man got so rich that he has other obligations nowadays, sadly I’m sure of it.
@ I looked at his line it’s speculated he had a child or two however no true born children (as of yet )
Being a knight was everything to dunk. And he may never have actually been knighted. But there's a good chance he was already a kingsguard before aegon v was crowned. At least I think. Because of the 3rd or 4th blackfyre rebellion I forget which. But if it happened before egg was king then it makes sense why he'd feel it was his only way to truly achieve his knighthood he originally lied about
Please god no, we already have like 50 secret Targaryens in this story
Except this is canon in that its mentioned in the world book
And add dragon seed to that.
Or perhaps…it was Dunk’s previously unknown, mustache-having twin brother Donk who is the ancestor!
It would be cool if she was!
She Carry’s a sense of honor & valor that he did ..
For the lord commander !!!
& the lord commander
All my brothers in black ranging north of the wall !!!
Brother Bittersteel the Wine is on me ….
I hope George Finishes the Dunk & Egg stories so we can find out EXACTLY how he dies ..
AEGON IV too
First ranger!!!
Of course my friend🍷🍷🍷🍷
Great to see you as always and I hope you are doing well
@@lawrencereid2767Great to see you again.I hope you're doing fantastic
@@lawrencereid2767lord commander!!
@@aegorbittersteel2154 ale is on me
I haven't read any of the source materials myself so I'm very uncertain about what I'm about to say, which is:
From what little I remember of Ser Duncun, I'm not entirely sure he would have been willing to have an affair *with* his friend's sister(s). There is another story that I love called "The Heralds of Valdemar", in the story of Vanyel (a powerful mage) we find a King who is ill and unable to provide an heir due to that illness. So, to prevent the Kingdom from falling apart, as a succession crisis at that time period would have had massive repercussions, the King asked Vanyel (they were very close friends) to secretly have an affair with his wife to provide the Kingdom an heir (this worked in part because the Queen was of blue blood as well). In that situation there was no scandalous "cheating" in the relationships between these three characters, instead it was considered an urgent matter of honor.
My thinking is that House Tarth may have had any number of potential difficulties in creating an heir within their Targaryan match, and Ser Duncun the Tall was asked to intervene. Like I said earlier, the little I remember of him suggested to me that while his character was perhaps a bit carefree, I'm hesitant to say he would have been willingly insulting to either Aegon V his friend, or to House Tarth by overstepping with either sister.
Another possibility I just thought of is that Ser Duncun and the Targaryan woman married into House Tarth may not have actually been involved with each other at all. GRRM said that Brienne has ancestry from both Ser Duncun and a Targaryan, but I don't think he actually said that they were actually paired together in that heritage. Ser Duncun could have slept with another woman in House Tarth who had a descendent remarry into Brienne's specific ancestral line, after the established Targaryan match.
Anyway, thanks for the videos as always!
Was Ser Duncan a Targaryen???
Some were known to get down in Flea Bottom where he’s from.
The best on youtube!!!
Or simply could just be that by some confusion they think Duncan a Targaryen due to him being with Egg. Then they hide the do not brag on the Dunk bastard
i have the books but what i struggle with at the moment im currently reading 3 of the books. Im furthest on the first book GoT but i started Fire and Blood now i started A Knight of The Seven Kingdoms.
Can you do a video on shiera seastar cause out of the main bastard kids of aegon the 4th she is only one that I know the least about.
I don't like the idea of Brienne being Dunk's descendant, they're both my favorites characters in the series but the implication that there is some genetic or prophetic reason for them being so good and chivalrous doesnt sit right with me. The main theme of Dunk's story imo is how this nobody from Flea Bottom who is very likely not a real knight represents the ideals of chivalry much better than all the noble sers, and the idea that Brienne is like that as well because her ancestor was really diminishes both of their arcs imo
I need to know the truth 😭😭 awesome video!!
I think Brienne is a descendant of Vaella Targaryen. They could have had a bastard daughter, and she could have been sent to the Tarths to be hidden, then she later marry the Lord.
The bastrard offspring of Dunk and the princess is more likely to be lord Selwyn's MOTHER than his father!
Dunc doing a Viserys Plumm on Tarths lmao
The accent is very sheffield
Maegor is Marwyn god's be good
Hodor
Man I worry you maybe running out of ideas for your videos.