Always good to see one of the less famous ships covered. Even as a degraded wreck, Danton still shows off the distinct French design philosophy, so her discovery is truly fortunate.
That hole on the last shot, it appears to be an open hatch or door with a porthole. I was shocked at the amount of superstructure damage! I was almost convinced that it could have been accidental,by 2 world wars of sonar finding the wreck, and ships dropping depth charges on the target, not realizing what it was...similar to the uss monitor...however, the sheer depth of this wreck precludes that explanation as its very much deeper than crush depths for submarines of the period. Id also suggest fishing nets dragging pulling on the wreck over the years, but there doesn't appear to be any nets on the wreck. On the bright side, we know this damage wasnt from illegal Chinese salvage work!!!!!!!
Best guess is she rolled over at least once while on the way down. Witness accounts say she was rolling over to port as she went under, stern-first, so to be upright on the floor she had to wither roll back upright, or made a full rotation (or maybe more) on the way down.
@jaybird1229 Indeed, the turrets and their pintles tend to be set into the barbettes all in one piece, and are usually only "held" in the barbette by gravity and whatever friction their bearing races or rollerways can provide.
I'm sitting on plenty of high resolution photos of Danton's wreck if you want them, including HD video and plenty of shots of the wreck that you don't normally see. Can't post them here unfortunately, and links are blocked. So...hit me up if you want more material I guess?
While the pictures may not have been the quality we usually see in the other videos, they were still good and I found this video very interesting. You don't often get a look at a wreck of a French pre-dreadnought.
In an era where one could tell what country a ship belonged to from it's shape & colour scheme, French ships really stood out. I love 'em, theyr'e so ugly they're beautiful. I used to wargame with miniature pre-dreadnought era ships. From the look of the 3D model, it looks to me that they swang out the starboard side guns, and probably the mains as well, to take some of the list off the ship. The ship of course is totally doomed once it starts flooding through the casemate gunports. Taking 45 minutes to sink isn't a bad performance at all for a ship that was designed without any underwater protection to speak of, after taking two torpedos.
🚫Yes, but sometimes it's not necessary to "go down with your ship". Like when my 12 foot canoe flipped over while i was paddling along in a local creek. I tried, but it was practically impossible to drown in 1 foot of water. Also, it was very easy to save the canoe by simply flipping it over and draining out the water! 😁
It is a strange thing that professional sailors ever made it a thing to die with their ships when their value to society was themselves. It is a wasteful and self-defeating practice that blessedly is not actively encouraged in most navies. My Grandfather, US Navy WW2, was told in no uncertain terms by his admiral that his job as a skipper was to save his crew and himself because the US Navy needed living sailors; the enemy would kill enough men as it was, so the US Navy didn't need fools killing themselves. Dying in battle was honorable, but living to fight another day to win the war was far more honorable and important.
I find it interesting that the barbettes for the secondary (9.4") turrets appear to be the same size as the ones for the main (12") turrets. This is because they considered replacing the six 9.4" twin turrets with single 12" turrets making the Dantons full Dreadnaughts.
Howdy Skynea History, just a couple of small things. The aft deck section has not collapsed at the waterline, but has collapsed along the line of her main belt armor, which would straddle above and below her waterline, and is also why the lower implosion damaged sections of hull have that very straight-edged look at the top, as that damage would not be able to "suck in" her belt armor. Additionally, the reason the conning tower still exists is that while the superstructure would be either unarmored or very lightly armored, the conning tower itself would effectively be a 10-inch thick steel walled tube running down into, and anchored to, the structure of the ship, hence it's survival. Interestingly, Danton is reported to have been in the process of rolling over as she went under, sinking by the stern, which indicates that she must have either righted herself on the way down, or possibly rolled completely and made it back upright before impact. The damage to the stern also seems to me to indicate that she hit stern-first, though that is speculation. Honestly, considering the known structural deficiencies of the French sea-going hotels, I'm surprised it's not worse.
Apparently most wrecks, if the water is deep enough, will right themselves by the time they reach the bottom. A good example is Bismarck, he rolled over on the surface, dropping out all four main turrets, but sits upright on the ocean floor.
@@richardcutts196 I'd heard that some wrecks do, and some don't, and would be curious as to what factors (other than the immediately apparent ones, like metacentric height and Length of beam) play into that. I knew Bismark had rolled back upright, but Barham apparently didnt, and some of the Japanese cruisers and battleships never made it back upright before hitting bottom. I wonder of Viribus Unitis would have rolled back if she had enough water under her, she was quite low-built if I remember rightly.
@@gamerxt333 While that may seem so, the opposite is often the case. Sometimes, like with the Danton here, air gets trapped in the lower compartments as the water rushes into the ship from above, usually due to those compartments having sealed their bulkhead hatches and watertight doors, and especially in a warship, where those bulkheads and hatches are heavily reinforced to resist battle damage. This trapped air should, I'd think, act like a balloon, causing the ship to want to turn "upside-down" once submerged, at least until the compartment's bulkheads or hatches are breached through mounting pressure and compression, whereupon the air would be released. Some ships with heavily built-up superstructures would also seem to tend to turn over as well, like most of the Japanese battleships, due to the additional mass above the waterline raising the ship's metacentric height, while others, which should have done the same, like Bismark, not having done so. As I said, I'd be interested in seeing an engineering survey done (as impossible as that would likely be) to see what factors go into determining if the ship stays upright all the way down, rolls on the way down, or just stays upside down and ends up upside down or on its side.
I read once that several of these WWI wrecks were depth charged during WWII as they looked like submarines to sonar operators. Not sure that they would have depth charged a wreck in 1000 feet of water thinking it was a submarine, though...
It already is. The Tier three French BB is WG's version. In real life the French considered replacing the six 9.4" twin turrets with single 12" turrets making the Dantons full Dreadnaughts. This would have given them a broadside of seven 12" guns with four forward and aft. A much more interesting ship, in my opinion, than the copycat hexigational arrangement of WG's lazy design. Just like the way they chose the worst of the two possible Lyon designs. I would like to see a regular Danton in WoW as well. If they can put Atlantico in the game there's no reason not to put the real Dantons in. Would make a fun tier three brawler. Of course there would, thanks to the way the game is set up, be no financial incentive for WG to do that so don't hold your breath.
@@richardcutts196 I'm glad to see you state why Danton probably won't be put in WoWs. I was going to make the comment about how tier 3 premiums aren't in high demand and tend to have low price tags, so no real financial incentives, but you saved me the trouble. :)
Danton had 26 boilers spread over a fairly large area to provide steam to for 4 turbines driving 4 screws. (By way of comparison an Iowa class battleship has 8 boilers powering 4 turbines driving 4 screws, and Danton's contemporaries USS Michigan (BB27) has 12 boilers powering 2 VTE engines driving 2 screws, and HMS Dreadnought has 18 boilers powering 2 turbine sets driving 3 screws respectively) Given the large number of boilers and the layout with the turbines in the gap amidships, they needed would have needed more funnels. Though to be fair, it was also a thing for pre-dreadnoughts to have more funnels than later designs.
"..the known structural deficiencies of the French sea-going hotel.." ? Désolé mais ce commentaire est incompréhensible y compris avec google translate.. les seules déficiences identifiées étaient la conséquence d’une organisation des forces armées essentiellement défensive et qui a souffert d’un manque de vision stratégique des décideurs politiques et militaires.
It's a joke based on Drachinfel's video "French Pre-Dreadnoughts - When Hotels go to War" and the fact that their superstructure looks rather large and bulky.
@@domidom1960 My apologies, I was unaware that you'd responded to my comment. The part about the "sea-going hotels" is a sort of tongue-in-cheek" joke that has existed for quite a while in the naval history community, and yes, Drachinifel's videos have made reference to this joke a few times. The French pre-dreadnaughts in particular all had that ungainly slab-sided superstructure that looks somewhat like a hotel, hence the joke. The part about the various deficiencies of the French battleship's was not a joke. French pre-dreadnaught battleships suffered from a number of known problems, mostly related to very poor stability and sea-keeping problems mostly attributed to their tumblehome hull designs and the very heavy slab-sided upper-works that added much weight to the ships above the waterline. Additionally, their long construction times and disorganized planning phases caused many of the ships designs to be altered all throughout the process of their construction, leading to many structural integrity problems and once electricity became more widely used, poor electrical systems layouts, leading to on-board fires and systems failures. Additionally, the poor quality of much of the armor plates, especially in the pre-dreadnaughts and early dreadnaughts designs, caused the ships to be finished quite heavier than designed, causing them to sit very low in the water, and sometimes causing most of their armor belts to be more submerged than planned, which leads to other problems such as making it easier for enemy shells to penetrate their broadsides. The Danton Class ships in particular were known to have stability issues, although not as badly as their predecessors, most likely due to the less pronounced curve of their tumblehome. Their armor was both of inferior quality steel than most of their European counterparts and was thinner than most of their contemporary's as well, partly in a bid to try to save weight when their boilers and engines came in very overweight for the design. Additionally, the boilers in some of the Danton Class ships used a French design which was highly inefficient and led to greatly reduced range and endurance, almost half of what the preceding Liberte Class battleships could achieve. Finally, the type of 305mm main battery gun was upgraded during the construction phase of the Danton Class, resulting in problems with both the main battery drive trains, and hydraulic systems that supported and operated the guns. These problems were never entirely corrected throughout their service lifetimes. Again, my apologies for not seeing your comment. I hope that your translator does not make a mess out of translating this. Have a good day.
@@vishnu79 merci d’avoir pris le temps de me répondre (et vous êtes très très prolixes ;-). L’histoire navale militaire aura démontré toute la vulnérabilité de ces colosses aux pieds d’argile (et vous en êtes les témoins privilégiés) face à l’éclosion d'armes telles que l’aviation ou les sous-marins. Vous aurez sans doute compris que je ne suis pas du tout "World of warships" mais je prends beaucoup de plaisir à suivre vos vidéos. Bonne journée également
@@domidom1960 I don't have a fantastic memory but the "hotel" comment may have actually originated with the French around the time of the "Hoche". I seem to recall reading that in a book dealing with French warship design. Having seen the model of "Hoche" in the Musee de la Marine (and I also have a model), I would have to agree...😉 No offense intended.
Always good to see one of the less famous ships covered. Even as a degraded wreck, Danton still shows off the distinct French design philosophy, so her discovery is truly fortunate.
Looks like she hit the bottom pretty hard. Great video of an overlooked ship and wreck!
That hole on the last shot, it appears to be an open hatch or door with a porthole. I was shocked at the amount of superstructure damage! I was almost convinced that it could have been accidental,by 2 world wars of sonar finding the wreck, and ships dropping depth charges on the target, not realizing what it was...similar to the uss monitor...however, the sheer depth of this wreck precludes that explanation as its very much deeper than crush depths for submarines of the period. Id also suggest fishing nets dragging pulling on the wreck over the years, but there doesn't appear to be any nets on the wreck. On the bright side, we know this damage wasnt from illegal Chinese salvage work!!!!!!!
Best guess is she rolled over at least once while on the way down. Witness accounts say she was rolling over to port as she went under, stern-first, so to be upright on the floor she had to wither roll back upright, or made a full rotation (or maybe more) on the way down.
@@vishnu79That would also explain the loss of the turrents, as well.
@jaybird1229 Indeed, the turrets and their pintles tend to be set into the barbettes all in one piece, and are usually only "held" in the barbette by gravity and whatever friction their bearing races or rollerways can provide.
I'm sitting on plenty of high resolution photos of Danton's wreck if you want them, including HD video and plenty of shots of the wreck that you don't normally see. Can't post them here unfortunately, and links are blocked. So...hit me up if you want more material I guess?
While the pictures may not have been the quality we usually see in the other videos, they were still good and I found this video very interesting. You don't often get a look at a wreck of a French pre-dreadnought.
That's the first wreck I have seen with so many intact port holes
Those sonar images are amazing.
In an era where one could tell what country a ship belonged to from it's shape & colour scheme, French ships really stood out. I love 'em, theyr'e so ugly they're beautiful. I used to wargame with miniature pre-dreadnought era ships. From the look of the 3D model, it looks to me that they swang out the starboard side guns, and probably the mains as well, to take some of the list off the ship. The ship of course is totally doomed once it starts flooding through the casemate gunports. Taking 45 minutes to sink isn't a bad performance at all for a ship that was designed without any underwater protection to speak of, after taking two torpedos.
great video, didnt know anything about this ship tell now.
Amazing sonor footage!
The captain is responsible for every man on the ship. He is last man off. He is chad af for going down with his ship and his men.
🚫Yes, but sometimes it's not necessary to "go down with your ship". Like when my 12 foot canoe flipped over while i was paddling along in a local creek. I tried, but it was practically impossible to drown in 1 foot of water. Also, it was very easy to save the canoe by simply flipping it over and draining out the water! 😁
It is a strange thing that professional sailors ever made it a thing to die with their ships when their value to society was themselves. It is a wasteful and self-defeating practice that blessedly is not actively encouraged in most navies.
My Grandfather, US Navy WW2, was told in no uncertain terms by his admiral that his job as a skipper was to save his crew and himself because the US Navy needed living sailors; the enemy would kill enough men as it was, so the US Navy didn't need fools killing themselves. Dying in battle was honorable, but living to fight another day to win the war was far more honorable and important.
@@genericpersonx333
Exactly.
Excellent video!
I find it interesting that the barbettes for the secondary (9.4") turrets appear to be the same size as the ones for the main (12") turrets. This is because they considered replacing the six 9.4" twin turrets with single 12" turrets making the Dantons full Dreadnaughts.
Howdy Skynea History, just a couple of small things. The aft deck section has not collapsed at the waterline, but has collapsed along the line of her main belt armor, which would straddle above and below her waterline, and is also why the lower implosion damaged sections of hull have that very straight-edged look at the top, as that damage would not be able to "suck in" her belt armor. Additionally, the reason the conning tower still exists is that while the superstructure would be either unarmored or very lightly armored, the conning tower itself would effectively be a 10-inch thick steel walled tube running down into, and anchored to, the structure of the ship, hence it's survival. Interestingly, Danton is reported to have been in the process of rolling over as she went under, sinking by the stern, which indicates that she must have either righted herself on the way down, or possibly rolled completely and made it back upright before impact. The damage to the stern also seems to me to indicate that she hit stern-first, though that is speculation.
Honestly, considering the known structural deficiencies of the French sea-going hotels, I'm surprised it's not worse.
Apparently most wrecks, if the water is deep enough, will right themselves by the time they reach the bottom. A good example is Bismarck, he rolled over on the surface, dropping out all four main turrets, but sits upright on the ocean floor.
@@richardcutts196 I'd heard that some wrecks do, and some don't, and would be curious as to what factors (other than the immediately apparent ones, like metacentric height and Length of beam) play into that. I knew Bismark had rolled back upright, but Barham apparently didnt, and some of the Japanese cruisers and battleships never made it back upright before hitting bottom.
I wonder of Viribus Unitis would have rolled back if she had enough water under her, she was quite low-built if I remember rightly.
Being the right way up is logical since most the space for water is the hull, therefore would be most heaviest.
@@gamerxt333 While that may seem so, the opposite is often the case. Sometimes, like with the Danton here, air gets trapped in the lower compartments as the water rushes into the ship from above, usually due to those compartments having sealed their bulkhead hatches and watertight doors, and especially in a warship, where those bulkheads and hatches are heavily reinforced to resist battle damage.
This trapped air should, I'd think, act like a balloon, causing the ship to want to turn "upside-down" once submerged, at least until the compartment's bulkheads or hatches are breached through mounting pressure and compression, whereupon the air would be released. Some ships with heavily built-up superstructures would also seem to tend to turn over as well, like most of the Japanese battleships, due to the additional mass above the waterline raising the ship's metacentric height, while others, which should have done the same, like Bismark, not having done so. As I said, I'd be interested in seeing an engineering survey done (as impossible as that would likely be) to see what factors go into determining if the ship stays upright all the way down, rolls on the way down, or just stays upside down and ends up upside down or on its side.
I'm actually shocked at the condition of the wreck. I wonder how fast it was moving when it hit the bottom ?
I love this stuff.
Excellent description
Great subject!!
I really Love this type of vídeo thxz a lot
Great video thanks
If you’re doing French navy, Force X is worth a look.
Haven't had time to watch through yet but was this ship named after Georges Danton?
I read once that several of these WWI wrecks were depth charged during WWII as they looked like submarines to sonar operators. Not sure that they would have depth charged a wreck in 1000 feet of water thinking it was a submarine, though...
Can you make a video on the ww2 scharnhorst wreck I can’t find much on it I know at least one dive happened in 2001
The Danton could become a fun tier 3 premium secondary battleship in WoW?
It already is. The Tier three French BB is WG's version. In real life the French considered replacing the six 9.4" twin turrets with single 12" turrets making the Dantons full Dreadnaughts. This would have given them a broadside of seven 12" guns with four forward and aft. A much more interesting ship, in my opinion, than the copycat hexigational arrangement of WG's lazy design. Just like the way they chose the worst of the two possible Lyon designs. I would like to see a regular Danton in WoW as well. If they can put Atlantico in the game there's no reason not to put the real Dantons in. Would make a fun tier three brawler. Of course there would, thanks to the way the game is set up, be no financial incentive for WG to do that so don't hold your breath.
@@richardcutts196 I'm glad to see you state why Danton probably won't be put in WoWs. I was going to make the comment about how tier 3 premiums aren't in high demand and tend to have low price tags, so no real financial incentives, but you saved me the trouble. :)
I wonder if it was depth charged during WWII ? Maybe mistaken for a submarine?
By rights she's classified as a war grave and should be left alone
Maybe a turret or two fell through the superstructure on the way down...
I sense a Drach groaning in anguish...
It looks like something large was dragged over the poor girl.
Or course one of the funnels would look like a cigerett
Sharing
The French built some of the most UGLY pre-dreadnought battleships. Why, in heaven's name were so many funnels needed?
Because of the turbine layout ? Although I guess they could of made centralised uptake(s) that the inner funnels lead to.
Danton had 26 boilers spread over a fairly large area to provide steam to for 4 turbines driving 4 screws. (By way of comparison an Iowa class battleship has 8 boilers powering 4 turbines driving 4 screws, and Danton's contemporaries USS Michigan (BB27) has 12 boilers powering 2 VTE engines driving 2 screws, and HMS Dreadnought has 18 boilers powering 2 turbine sets driving 3 screws respectively) Given the large number of boilers and the layout with the turbines in the gap amidships, they needed would have needed more funnels. Though to be fair, it was also a thing for pre-dreadnoughts to have more funnels than later designs.
I have always loved pre dreadnoughts and dreadnoughts
Steam Punk
Not so exotic in appearance as some French battleships.
Why are all new French Navy warships equipped with glass bottoms?.......So they can enjoy seeing the old French Navy. An oldie but still funny.
Average Virgin Cringe Brainless Fatherless Anti France Troll Fanboy taking Copium over here ⬆️
Why are all French warships end with a / submarine?? Such as battleship / submarine, or cruiser/ submarine. Because they all end up underwater !! 😮🎉😅😅
"..the known structural deficiencies of the French sea-going hotel.." ? Désolé mais ce commentaire est incompréhensible y compris avec google translate.. les seules déficiences identifiées étaient la conséquence d’une organisation des forces armées essentiellement défensive et qui a souffert d’un manque de vision stratégique des décideurs politiques et militaires.
It's a joke based on Drachinfel's video "French Pre-Dreadnoughts - When Hotels go to War" and the fact that their superstructure looks rather large and bulky.
@@ImportantNavalHistory OK, je suis complètement à côté de la plaque.. merci pour la précision
@@domidom1960 My apologies, I was unaware that you'd responded to my comment. The part about the "sea-going hotels" is a sort of tongue-in-cheek" joke that has existed for quite a while in the naval history community, and yes, Drachinifel's videos have made reference to this joke a few times. The French pre-dreadnaughts in particular all had that ungainly slab-sided superstructure that looks somewhat like a hotel, hence the joke.
The part about the various deficiencies of the French battleship's was not a joke. French pre-dreadnaught battleships suffered from a number of known problems, mostly related to very poor stability and sea-keeping problems mostly attributed to their tumblehome hull designs and the very heavy slab-sided upper-works that added much weight to the ships above the waterline. Additionally, their long construction times and disorganized planning phases caused many of the ships designs to be altered all throughout the process of their construction, leading to many structural integrity problems and once electricity became more widely used, poor electrical systems layouts, leading to on-board fires and systems failures.
Additionally, the poor quality of much of the armor plates, especially in the pre-dreadnaughts and early dreadnaughts designs, caused the ships to be finished quite heavier than designed, causing them to sit very low in the water, and sometimes causing most of their armor belts to be more submerged than planned, which leads to other problems such as making it easier for enemy shells to penetrate their broadsides.
The Danton Class ships in particular were known to have stability issues, although not as badly as their predecessors, most likely due to the less pronounced curve of their tumblehome. Their armor was both of inferior quality steel than most of their European counterparts and was thinner than most of their contemporary's as well, partly in a bid to try to save weight when their boilers and engines came in very overweight for the design. Additionally, the boilers in some of the Danton Class ships used a French design which was highly inefficient and led to greatly reduced range and endurance, almost half of what the preceding Liberte Class battleships could achieve. Finally, the type of 305mm main battery gun was upgraded during the construction phase of the Danton Class, resulting in problems with both the main battery drive trains, and hydraulic systems that supported and operated the guns. These problems were never entirely corrected throughout their service lifetimes.
Again, my apologies for not seeing your comment. I hope that your translator does not make a mess out of translating this. Have a good day.
@@vishnu79 merci d’avoir pris le temps de me répondre (et vous êtes très très prolixes ;-). L’histoire navale militaire aura démontré toute la vulnérabilité de ces colosses aux pieds d’argile (et vous en êtes les témoins privilégiés) face à l’éclosion d'armes telles que l’aviation ou les sous-marins. Vous aurez sans doute compris que je ne suis pas du tout "World of warships" mais je prends beaucoup de plaisir à suivre vos vidéos.
Bonne journée également
@@domidom1960 I don't have a fantastic memory but the "hotel" comment may have actually originated with the French around the time of the "Hoche". I seem to recall reading that in a book dealing with French warship design. Having seen the model of "Hoche" in the Musee de la Marine (and I also have a model), I would have to agree...😉 No offense intended.
First
Has anyone revisited the Bismark in recent years
Not without permission from the German government given it’s been deemed a war grave since its discovery