I personally can't really say one or the other, never owned an Ls, but i can say for certain how many smiles a gen 1 sbc has put on my face! A whole lot!! Then everyone knocks the old Rochester carburetors, I've never had any problems with a quadrajet ever! I currently have a quick fuel HR750 on my car and its giving me fits, kinda wish I had just gone with a quadrajet at this point tbh! You should try one of those Eric, might surprise you!
Eric, Love the content. I generally look forward to your posts. To the point. In 1999 I built a small block Chevy. Stock forged crank, stock 4 bolt main block bored .03 over. 355 ci. Afr 227 cylinder heads. Lunati cam. Trw pistons. Manley rods. 6/71 supercharger on methanol. It made a legitimate 1200 hp to the flywheel. We ran it for a year and a half before it broke. When it broke it wasn't the block or the crank. It was the Manley rods. However, possibly the wrist pins broke first. It spit out two rods. Of the unbroken rods almost all the wrist pins were fractured and ready to fail. The block had fretting on the main caps and saddles. So, there was movement there, but no failure. For two years this was the only small block anything, Ford, Chevy or Mopar that qualified for Bandimere speedways quick 16 program! And many tried! Sometimes we had 30 cars trying to qualify when this program was at its peak. This was a Chevy S10 that weighed 2986 fueled up, driver aboard ready to race! SBC blocks are generally not frail! Poor tuning aside! Jack Henderson
As a machinist and hp engine builder I think both engines have plenty to offer and have their drawbacks. As far as power it's just a matter of $. If you push a old SBC past it's max it will have problems. Ditto on the Ls. Every engine built by cAr manufacturers is the same way, wether chevy or Ford or Gm or whoever. One just has to know what to do and what is the fix if possible and how much $ it's going to take. Opinions are just that opinions eveyone has one and thinks they know. Good job ERIC!
As much as people complain about LS vs SBC vs SBF, you all are forgetting something. The LS has that valley plate. That design is only on the Bentley 6.75.
The only thing about the LS that frustrates me is that it doesn't have shaft rockers with oil ports. Seriously, all of the rockers are in a straight line, and that bracket thing already has radii cut into it.
One of the most impressive budget engines I've run on the dyno was a 6.0 out of a 2006 truck where the customer put a big Comp hydraulic roller along with valve springs and the rocker trunnion kit. With a Vic Jr cathedral port intake and a MSD ignition box, original lifters, high mileage untouched long block with the low compression 317 heads and the engine bangs out 476 HP. There isn't any readily available SBC that's making that power with just a cam swap. Modern engines are a great platform and are well supported in the aftermarket. (All engines are cool)
@@docsmallblock6584 There have been more high performance parts made for SBCs than every other engine type combined. 70yrs of continuous R&D on the SBC, millions of them have been built into racing engines, it's no wonder why they are so good. A lot of folks just can't understand that. Power per dollar they can't be beat.
The first time I saw a LS1 I thought it looked like a Windsor on top and a Modular on bottom 😂 But kidding aside, the LS layout is very much like a Cadillac v8. The Oldsmobile v8 is a bit like a Windsor on top, and Cleveland on the bottom. These things happen not because designs are being copied per se, but because of tooling/manufacturing considerations, and the practical implementation of certain technologies (for example even head port spacing, or cross bolted main caps).
Eric - I feel the same about the fanboys. The LS is a great engine but so is the BBC and SBC. I've seen in forums where somebody will post a question about getting more power out of their engine, BBC or SBC, and the fanboys immediate response is LS swap. I've got a '69 Camaro with a 427SBC on E85 with an F2 Procharger and I love beating the fanboys with it.
@@Steve69SS396 LS fanboys and sheep have alot in common. I can't stand old muscle cars with LS swaps. Shit angers me to look at it. A built LS in a 2010 Camaro or a 2004 GTO or modern truck is ok, but putting them in old Chevelles and Camaros pisses me off. Ain't like the old school engines can't get the job done. I'm sure your boosted 427 sbc is more than 99.99% of the population needs. But the dipshits still hollar LS swap it. When I see the soyboys asking about making more power with their 290hp LS engines, I tell them to bigblock swap it.
I don’t know why people get mad. Like what you like. Build what you want to build for you. Just be happy we have so many good options around these days. I have a Sbc & a LS. I just wish I could justify a big block, because the big block is still king 👑 I also owned a 302, a dodge 318, I like em all. We as Americans are lucky. My 2 best friends have different rides. A 68 Z28 with a 383 & the other a Fox body coyote swap. I’m driving a 79 Malibu with a LS as my main. We are lucky to have so many great choices.
@@popeye089 I wouldn’t say big block is king. What factory headed big block Chevy is going to make more power than a factory ls7 head? Even if you port a factory rec port head it ain’t gonna flow more than a ported ls7 heads. Only way a bbc is making more power is when you go aftermarket. Then all bets are off you can get 1000 cubic inch big blocks and big chief headed motors. But stock for stock ls7 is king.
@@rle1020 dude the engines we are talking about this channel are all built up engines. So yes in the realm of this channel and the content we are watching, big block is king on a straight. Don’t come with a Karen argument
2 bolt main 400 were better for making big horsepower. My old man used to make 700+ hp 421 sbc for late model dirt cars way back in late 80s early 90s. He said the 2 bolt oe blocks were better for big horsepower stroked engines because you had more solid metal for strength. They would run like we all know wide open damn near entire races 100 laps. My dads engines made with secondhand parts and his knowledge would beat sometimes who’s considered the goat by many now Billy Moyer who had the best of the best under his hood.
This does don’t surprise me. When I was building a motor for my 69 Camaro i built a fairly stout 406. Do you know how many people gave me a hard time that I wasn’t going LS. When you know…you know.Good video.
I believe the big difference is you can get a 5.3 out of a junkyard put a camshaft in it maybe some Valvesprings and make well over 450 hp you’re not gonna do that with any 350 out of the junkyard without completely building it up I think that’s where people get the idea that the LS is better for the most part if you’re going to build from the ground up you similar sized parts with similar airflow you’re going to get similar results in my opinion An engine is a big metal ball of clay in my opinion it’s just an air pump if you know what you’re doing you can make anything work and anything make horsepower
High-performance really isn’t cheap no matter what you do, it’s just that the newer the engine is to have been produced the less likely you’re gonna have to pay to have machine work done and the headache that comes along with it, if you’re gonna start from scratch and build the entire engine you can pretty much make anything work the way you want it to imo
Hey Eric, Tim here, the copy argument is worthless........couch dudes doin their thing.....Ford is a dif animal.....requires dif approach.....u know that......but a Ford dyno mule wud sure help the couch dudes.......and ur depth of testing is just AWESOME!!!...i'm a Poncho guy, but watch ALL smart vids, as ICE is an ICE.....keep doin what ur doin.....i personally find it refreshing and concise!!!.....PEACE my brother!!
Always enjoy your content , Eric. On the battle between sbc and ls , you proved my findings . They go like this .......if you are building a max-ish effort smallblock , flip a coin . You can make a sbc as bad as you want . Where the ls shines is on a drivable fast streetcar . The 550-600 hp level is reached with a much milder LS than the sbc . Your test showed a comparison between a 260-270 @.050 solid roller and a much milder hydraulic roller LS. Two different levels of radical , but power levels were almost identical . The head flow and valve angles on the ls require less cam timing to hit that hot small block power level . Either one works, but the LS is an easier combo to street drive.
They do make aftermarket heads for the sbc , both engines have a 4.400 bore spacing both engines will make the same power. I’m not knocking the LS , but there are known for excessive windage which will cost HP.
All engines can make power how much money do you want to spend! LS 15° heads like to rev higher to make torque then a sbc with a 23° head in my opinion. There are more bolts to clamp the heads on the sbc and are cheaper to build. I have a 370LS with a s480 turbo done many LS turbo builds but I keep them at a safe power level and they work well.
@@KingJT80 I disagree although I would stud heads either way. Ps. I’m running a small block 355 with Afr 227 heads right now. I’m quite sure I would grenade it would boost.
@@Gregoman89 i mean clamping force not the block strength. LS will lift a head and have done so. its just a physical fact they need more head bolts to put the wood to them
@@Gregoman89 its been tested. this is why guys move to the different heads with the different bolt patterns when they start getting up there in boost levels on an LS for gen 1s its not the clamp force its the breathing. thats why Gen ! SBC guys move to 18 degree heads
I also don't like the idea of a LS3 head on the 4" bore. I believe its valve shrouded from the cylinder wall. I personally run a 2.08 intake valve tfs 235 on a 4.070 bore.
As far as I understand, the engine does not understand Brand or Generation. Pick a HP Goal at a given RPM. Pick a TQ curve shape ( peak vs flat ). Pick a Static CR. Then optimize each platform. My guess is the actual HP and TQ will be very close. Excluding any differences related to Windage and Friction. I own both engines with similar displacement ( 421 EFI SBC, LS7 ). Both are really good.
The copy argument is always such garbage. If its a copy of a Ford, what's the Ford a copy of? An OVH Benz engine from the 30's? If we go back far enough, everyone takes notes on what works and doesn't. That's engineering. If ones a copy, so is everything else.
The 351 Cleveland uses exactly the same 350sbc bore size and a stroke closer to a 350 Chevy than the LS deck height is to a Cleveland deck height so really a 351 must actually be a small block Chevy.
I think the biggest strength the LS has is its so cheap. You get all the hypo mods, roller cam and rockers, 15 deg alloy heads, light weight pistons and crank, superior ignition system, the list goes on, in a stock junkyard engine. Small block chevys sound better though. But they both have nothing on a Ford Clevelands sound!
For LS Intakes to test that I think would be interesting Stock LS3 Intake Ported + Rod Modded LS3 Intake Fast LSXR 102 Ported Fast LSXR 102 Performance Design XS LS3 Intake All long runner street stuff that should apply to common LS builds.
This is what I’ve been saying for years, I like LS’s but I love SBC’s each has there place. Fanboyism is because of complete ignorance/heard mentality, they’ve got to fit in somehow.
Well done young man. Now you have me thinking on the dynamics of the LS, that cause the loss of power with a better carb. I like engines. I try to study them, and see what makes them tick. Small blocks are getting harder to find, unless you buy an aftermarket block. The LS is easy enough to pick up cheap, and, as you said, easy to make changes for power research. I'm just surprised that the dominator didn't pick up power. I'm researching logical reliable power upgrades for my 2019. I plan on staying N/A, because it's a daily, and I don't like the "fan boy" trend of adding turbo's, or SC's. It's just me. I follow several channels, and review trends. Some channels, I don't believe in their choice of cams, but, I don't have the cash to play. I've seen them disprove their own theories. Others say certain things, but the basis of their research is with other engine platforms. So...I'll continue to observe, and see what info you found out. Should be interesting.
“Fighting for second, big block Chevy is the winner” you’re dang right. Love this video. I’ve never cared which one is “better” I just prefer small block chevy’s and like you I can’t stand LS fanboys. Great video!
Eric, You are really making some great content, Very informative and technical , I have some stuff to donate if you want them, Stock vortec L31 heads and Ls 317 heads, and some old 882 heads ported long time ago, This is at the moment how i can help with your chanel for more dyno and R&D. Let me know.
That’s kinda crazy, sbc with 23 degree heads are making more power than 15 and 11 degree heads on LS in most cases. I am eating this up. I love it, so much good data. I’m actually in the middle of choosing between a 6.0 build or 406 sbc build.
Sacre bleu Éric, de l'information bien superbement expliquée! Will you reduce the LSA of the LS cam, like trying a 110, 108, 107 and 106, with the same the duration. It could get more hp and torque or not.
Not a fan boy of either engine specifically, but I like good powerful engines no matter what brand or style . I feel the cnc porting of the sbc heads , the extra bore size , and aggressive lobe ramp of solid roller allowed the sbc to shine in the end . The high flow numbers on the ls heads I wouldn’t think matter is you’re not using a camshaft to take advantage of extra flow . Also don’t Ls engines kinda lack on the exhaust side of the head ? Thanks for the videos.
Great vid. But why does everyone use a smog 350 engine as their comparison against an ls. There were many other sbc from the factory that made decent power. Eric at least you compared apples to apples.
Or a 375hp 327 vs a 5.3 LM7. I'd put my money on the old 327. Or a 1970 370hp 350 LT-1 vette engine vs a 1998 5.7 LS. Be a better comparison. LS fanboys like to refer to the late 70s smog 350s with a 2-barrel and 145hp. Big difference between those smog engines and the muscle car era shit. Especially when ya use modern aftermarket heads and parts on them old engines.
If you build an engine with the same displacement and similar components then it will perform essentially the same.... The LS gets the head start because of what you get in stock form.
Lots of differences between the two. Valve angles port location, hights and angles..all variables which effect power output and efficiency. All these things can be modified to be similar with time and money. It's all in what you want to build and how crazy you want to get. All are basically air pumps..
The 23 degree head for the small block is old and out dated. The SBC and SBF 400 cid made 900hp 25 years ago in NA hot street class. How long ago did pro stock truck make 1100 with 358 inches? Most these Ls guys weren't even born yet.
That is the deal, if you spend the money and buy the triple throw down heads any engine will make power, I raced last night, my car is running 1.7 60s in a fox body and the engine is a stock 6.0 with 200.000 miles with a 230 at . 50 baby cam. I cant count the SBC and bbc engines ive built. But without the heads,a sbc wont touch an ls.
ATT ERIC, I have 2 factory production, virgin 400 blocks. Both rough bored for a .020 finish overbore, hot tanked, no cam brgs or soft plugs. One is a 2 bolt main, the other 4 bolt mains. I'm in my 60's now, and afraid I'll never use these. Both have accumulated some light surface rust from setting the last two decades in my shop. Could you use one or both to replace your dyno mule block? Thinking around 700 for the pair. You pay shipping from Wa state. Let me know and we'll exchange emails. Also on your testing, what do you think.... Both sbc 23 degree and LS3 (15 degree?) have similar flowing cyl heads, say around 330cfm and cam specs. I believe because of the better "line of sight in ports", better combustion chambers, better valve inclination angle of the LS, it's going to beat the SBC by around 30-40HP. In other words the LS possibly has a more efficient inlet tract and needs less total ig. timing.... Thoughts on this? And willing to barter on the blocks for a channel member purchase.
What makes the ls so appealing is a junkyard 6.0 with a cam, intake and headers is going to make 500+hp. You’re not going to do that with any stock headed sbc. Where the ls really shines is when you boost them in stock form. Now on the blocks we made 869whp with 010 350 sbc on nitrous and didn’t hurt the block. Never pushed a ls that hard but there are plenty of them out there well over a 1000whp. I love a sbc especially a big cube motor but a ls just a better platform. When it comes to aftermarket they both can be built equally.
you know what is even better than your LS making 1000whp, its been proven you can make 1500whp with a Coyote with stock cams. You cant do that with any of the stock LS cams in any size LS.
@@nova467spanker Coyote is not even in the discussion because it is DOHC with cam phasing on all 4 cams, you have the ability to make it act like an ideal cam for the whole rev range. Bit outside of the chat on LS vs SBC when you talk about a 4 cam engine mate. Def a nice piece though
lol!!! Loved this video!! Sorry man but you are not going to win. People are people. lol!! I remember back in the day a kid wanted to race me with his 350 Chevelle. All I ever heard was about how much power this thing had. I had a 72 duster 340. Yeah the year killed the hp on. One wheel wander. Finally I got upset and said let’s go to get my ass kicked. We went out and ran and half way down the street I didn’t see him! What the heck? I stopped at the end. He comes up and I asked you miss a gear or what? He goes no. I go what? He goes your car is that fast! ! I can tell you my car was not fast. Maybe 15 second. I get so tired of of these guys saying the same crap over and over how bad ass there crap is . I love how you show your stuff. This is it! Facts are facts. It’s how you make the motor in the end you get 2 or 3 hp in the end then the other person. Good video! Thank you so much. I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.
@@replica4132 ya I know the Coyote is not in the conversation but "LS this and LS that" is old and when I hear stuff like the LS can make 1000whp I like to point out there are other engines doing stuff even better. Just sucks the Coyote are so damn big dimensionaly cause I guarantee the LS fan boy engine swaps would be a 1/3 of what they are now. yes but the LS has VVT also - that means cam phasing too 🙃
Once the junkyards run out of LS engines it’s no longer going to be a cheap build. At that point a BBC will cost the same to build and you’ll make 300+ Hp more
Id rather build a bigblock for maximum power. Still king shit. Hard to beat a properly built bigblock chevy with anything. Been that way since they were invented to dominate the NASCAR tracks in 1963. Only GM engine originally designed as a racing engine first, pass car & truck engine later. They kicked everybodys ass on the street & tracks for decades. Still do to this day.
Go big or go home, loved your comment, Rat motors brought big power to the people. Imagine if the mark III would have gotten off the drawing board with 5 “ bore spacing, symmetrical intake ports, scary news for mother mopar and the blue oval.
Pretty much grew up at the dragstrip. When I was a kid I could tell just by the sound the cars that had bigblocks in them. They definitely have a unique sound. Real easy to go fast with too. I'm building 3 rowdy bigblocks right now. All basic old school shit really, all 3 will make 700 to 800+hp NA. Could drive them on the street daily if one wanted to. MPG pretty bad tho, and E-85 makes it even worse. But anyone that's never drove a 700-800hp bigblock street machine don't know what they're missing. Make ya forget all about a LS or SBC.
I've built hundreds of SBCs, at least 20 LS type engines, mostly LQ4s & LM7s, and a bunch of bigblocks since the early 80s, The difference between them is obvious. Most young bucks have never got to experience a well built Rat. That's why they all cry LS.... They heard on the internet that a stock 300,000 mile junkyard core LS with a $200 dollar Chinese turbo will make 1000+hp and live. I've actually seen one do it, engine blew up before it ever came off the dyno. Sometimes bullshit is just bullshit. If it was that easy, I'd have 10 of them.
I've always loved the SBC!!! I'm am relatively new to the LS world. They are both capable engines. Slap forged pistons and rods and a good set of heads they perform really similar. Turbo either and they both make crazy power.
Keep them rolling man, would LOVE to see a solid roller in the Ls! But I know that gets pricy, I can’t say the Ls will make more with the same cam the sbc has, however, put a 230ish cam in that sbc and see if it keeps up, I can say that my solid roller 383 has better drivability than my 231 cam 370 Ls
Love the videos can’t wait to see what your Cathedral ported heads do. I have a 6.0 that I’m building with just forged rods and pistons and don’t know if I’ll be good with some ported by you 799’s or if I’ll see a major difference with ported ls3 I already have a fast intake so I’m hoping ported 799 is plenty
One item with LS based engines that I do not like and it is the intake bolt hole angle. Makes for more work when port matching them and you’re relegated to a clamp of some sort in order to flow test with the intake mounted.
the ls might be better but they are but ugly looking compared to both the small block and big block motors. much better looking motors to me. ill stick to old school.
I've heard a lot of old school sbc guys say they were unimpressed with 1/4 mile times per hp. They made the switch to ls, made x amount of power, and were just underwhelmed with the times.
LS engines were not originally about more power. They are about better mpg and emissions while making similar power to older engines. Thats what they were about.
Eric, try 1/4 preload on the SBC lifters. On a flat hydraulic I have found slightly more vaccum and a smoother idle on about 5 engines in the past 30 years. But not on a hydraulic roller yet.
Grubworm Camaro was making around 2000hp with a production block mid 90s LT1 350, theres that.... Runs in the 6s at 220+mph too. Hes running a Bowtie block now and making more power. It uses a 3.25 stroke crank. Those stock blocks will take more power than people think. I have a 97 LT1 block, it dont look much different than a same year Vortec 5.7 as far as the block thickness & shit. I wouldnt be afraid to put a turbo on it.
The big difference between the Sbc and Ls is mostly seen by us “low buck” guys. An Lm7 5.3l with a cam can make more power than cammed and carbed vortec 350 for example. In fact a stock Lm7 makes similar power to the late 60s performance sbcs (Richard holdner did a video on this with a dz 302, L76 327, Lt1 350 and an Lm7 5.3L). That and the cost and availability is actually better on the “junkyard” LS motors compared to vortecs 350s or other “HO” variants of the sbcs( at least in my area ). Now if you’re comparing high dollar builds like in the vid? Yeah the gap is gonna be pretty much nonexistent.
i mean most people who build vortec 350s will get around 425HP with a decent cam and minimal head work like pinning the studs for higher spring pressures where a 5.3 is kind a small bore and getting 450 or so is about average for most budget guys otherwise people just go get a 6.0 to make more power easier
Im in the catbird seat because im a SBC fanboy so its a win win if its better woohoo if it gets beat oh well it was beat by a newer platform. I will say all GM factory parts the LS is superior GM the vortec and LT4 was the pinical, and as far as i know the LS1 wasore powerful than the LT4. With factory heads You can build a pretty stout engine with stock 5.3 heads and gen 1 its vortec or double humps and there has been some pretty stout vortec headed builds tho.
when it comes to small blks,those 2 engs. cant compete to after market 434 chevy and the big blk windsors.i understand the 2 after market engs. are more expensive to build but that 434 bracket eng. is one tuff son of a gun to beat on a eigth mi. drag strip,one of the best combos period.dont believe me,come over to petersburg va and watch dinwiddes regular saturday night bracket races and you will be shown.
Nice testing like usual but man yep I am glad your able to prove people wrong but there is always gonna be those people who will ignore it and saying it's bs and I hate those people I deal with then all the time it's annoying. But thank you for sharing like always. And I do see a ton of LS comments already geez.
Here's how the whole LS is superior thing started..... people where taking stock 5.7s (LS1) and simply putting a aftermarket camshaft and headers on them and making good HP. Can a stock 350 chevy with just a simple cam change and headers make the same power? Probably not. Now when you start modifying the sbc with aftermarket heads, roller camshaft and roller valve train and higher compression yes the difference is ALOT less. But most wankers out there that solely swing on LS nuts only do the basic stuff to them and they respond very well and make good power.
@@cedricwilson2055 it dont take a big cam to make 425 with a vortec headed 350 just some flat top pistons and a mid 230's duration hydro roller and a 750 and air gap intake done deal. plenty of people have done it
Funny thing on UA-cam, Steve Moris did a similar test only boosted, about the same time.....within hrs. 6.0 ltr VS a 383 from 2013! Sorry LS guys! ERIC, you made me laugh over the Ford comparison/copy thingy. I didn't know that was a deal. Thanks for all you do sir!!
@robholmes2129 A good engine is only as good as the sum of it's parts. Both used belt driven pro chargers of the same size, this was the whole idea. New vs old. BTW Morris isn't going to get blown away by a garage built engine, not on his show!
@@cliffwright9842 watch that vid gain the LS had a torquestorm blower which didn't make near the boost as the one on that small block,which was a procharger F blower which are not at all the same size.The LS was making @14 lbs with a slipping belt and the Small block was making @25 lbs!!!!
@@robholmes2129in a max effort build a Gen 1 SBC will make the Same power as an LS both engine are4.400 bore spacing, there’s no getting around that , and yes the LS will cost significantly more then a SBC to make that same power. At that point you might as well build A BBC and make 300 more HP n/A for the same price as a LS motor.
1) Pedestal mount.....like a SBF. JK, I can tell the SBF boys got your dander up. 2) 427" LS was a factory offering. 3) If we opt for factory head vs factory head on an otherwise comparable motor, LS wins. Put whatever double hump extra rare casting number SBC head vs. an LS7 or even an LS3, and we all know who wins. 4) I disagree with your assertion that the cams are comparable. Your lash argument might hold water when it comes to advertised specs, but not at .050". Don't believe me? Bolt a wheel on the crank and remove all doubt. There's a video idea for you that doesn't require a dyno fee. I appreciate you.
SBC makes more power than the LS because it has a shorter rod! I just had to say it! LOL! But what is the truth surrounding short rod engines? They do seem to be torquier. Is there any truth to it?
Dart block LS heads is a great combo maybe . idk if its true or not but some say the LS 6 bolt mans creates turbulence working against the crank. So the 4 bolt main dark blocks eliminates that maybe idk. Both great engines if i had a LS id build it if i had a SBC id build it lol!!
I prefer the SBC over the LS because I find the latter boring, honestly. These days LS swaps are as cliche as the rush to the airport at the end of every romantic comedy with how common they seem. Now, make something AWD with the LS4 and you'll have my attention, as there's not too many people willing to do something like that.
Prior to LS swaps SBC swaps were the cliche. Why are either so popular? Cheap available power. Typically they are the cheapest and easiest to find and reach a given power output.
@@davidwickboldt712 I thought that, too. We've come full circle with the old stuff getting popular again, the Flathead Ford V8 is getting some love from younger guys now as well.
@WeingartnerRacing I'd be looking for something with a IVC of 51-53@.050 and 108-110 max on the LSA. Intake Duration in the range of upper 230s to low 240s, exhaust in the 25x range and .650ish lift
BBC for the win. Have 1300hp on stock 454 block. Over 100 passes. Cams duration and LSA need to be closer, valve angle need to be the same. And intakes need to be the same. Can’t compare a 4500 intake to a 4150 with a 4500 adapter. Just my opinion. They are both small engines, about the same.
I love sbc. Stock to stock the ls will win. You cant do a cam swap and springs on a stock sbc 350 or 400and make 550hp. Like you can with ls 6.0 its proven.
Just to add unnecessary information the gen 2 sbc 6 is basically a gen1 that doesn't have water or a distributor in the intake. Its limited to a 4. bore (unless you get a spec-1 aftermarket block).
You can put a distributor in it. There arent too many intakes that will, gmpp makes a dual plane with a dist hold down. The cam still has the gear for the oil pump.
They copied the 427 high riser. Rail rockers, symmetrical ports, cross bolt mains, front oil pump, cathedral intake ports, deep skirts, and more. They copied these because nothing in engineering is revolutionary, it's evolutionary.
And in 1963 GM was forced by NASCAR to surrender 2 "Daytona Mystery 427 Chevys" to Ford before they could run them in the 63 Daytona 500....Those "Mystery Motors" had canted valve cylinder heads....Gave Ford the inspiration for the "385 Series" 429-460 motors debuted in 1966....Copy Cats! The MKIV 396 Chevy hit the showrooms in 1965....So? Where would Ford have been without the stolen R&D given to them by Bill France?
The good thing about dyno testing is that they don’t care about opinions. Good one
This has needed to be done for a long time. Thanks so much for sharing. Best of luck. Take Care!!!
I personally can't really say one or the other, never owned an Ls, but i can say for certain how many smiles a gen 1 sbc has put on my face! A whole lot!! Then everyone knocks the old Rochester carburetors, I've never had any problems with a quadrajet ever! I currently have a quick fuel HR750 on my car and its giving me fits, kinda wish I had just gone with a quadrajet at this point tbh! You should try one of those Eric, might surprise you!
Another great video. Thanks Eric!
Eric,
Love the content. I generally look forward to your posts.
To the point. In 1999 I built a small block Chevy. Stock forged crank, stock 4 bolt main block bored .03 over. 355 ci. Afr 227 cylinder heads. Lunati cam. Trw pistons. Manley rods. 6/71 supercharger on methanol. It made a legitimate 1200 hp to the flywheel. We ran it for a year and a half before it broke. When it broke it wasn't the block or the crank. It was the Manley rods. However, possibly the wrist pins broke first. It spit out two rods. Of the unbroken rods almost all the wrist pins were fractured and ready to fail.
The block had fretting on the main caps and saddles. So, there was movement there, but no failure.
For two years this was the only small block anything, Ford, Chevy or Mopar that qualified for Bandimere speedways quick 16 program! And many tried! Sometimes we had 30 cars trying to qualify when this program was at its peak.
This was a Chevy S10 that weighed 2986 fueled up, driver aboard ready to race!
SBC blocks are generally not frail! Poor tuning aside!
Jack Henderson
As a machinist and hp engine builder I think both engines have plenty to offer and have their drawbacks. As far as power it's just a matter of $. If you push a old SBC past it's max it will have problems. Ditto on the Ls. Every engine built by cAr manufacturers is the same way, wether chevy or Ford or Gm or whoever. One just has to know what to do and what is the fix if possible and how much $ it's going to take. Opinions are just that opinions eveyone has one and thinks they know. Good job ERIC!
You have great enthusiasm! Makes your videos very enjoyable!
As much as people complain about LS vs SBC vs SBF, you all are forgetting something.
The LS has that valley plate. That design is only on the Bentley 6.75.
The only thing about the LS that frustrates me is that it doesn't have shaft rockers with oil ports. Seriously, all of the rockers are in a straight line, and that bracket thing already has radii cut into it.
One of the most impressive budget engines I've run on the dyno was a 6.0 out of a 2006 truck where the customer put a big Comp hydraulic roller along with valve springs and the rocker trunnion kit. With a Vic Jr cathedral port intake and a MSD ignition box, original lifters, high mileage untouched long block with the low compression 317 heads and the engine bangs out 476 HP. There isn't any readily available SBC that's making that power with just a cam swap. Modern engines are a great platform and are well supported in the aftermarket. (All engines are cool)
You completely contradict yourself in your comment!!!
Power per dollar, the gen 1 sbc ALWAYS WINS!!!
@@docsmallblock6584 There have been more high performance parts made for SBCs than every other engine type combined. 70yrs of continuous R&D on the SBC, millions of them have been built into racing engines, it's no wonder why they are so good. A lot of folks just can't understand that. Power per dollar they can't be beat.
This isn't a "per dollar" comparison
For the mule fund
The first time I saw a LS1 I thought it looked like a Windsor on top and a Modular on bottom 😂
But kidding aside, the LS layout is very much like a Cadillac v8. The Oldsmobile v8 is a bit like a Windsor on top, and Cleveland on the bottom. These things happen not because designs are being copied per se, but because of tooling/manufacturing considerations, and the practical implementation of certain technologies (for example even head port spacing, or cross bolted main caps).
Thank you Eric. It's good to know that the sbc can still hold it's own in the modern era of engines.
Eric - I feel the same about the fanboys. The LS is a great engine but so is the BBC and SBC. I've seen in forums where somebody will post a question about getting more power out of their engine, BBC or SBC, and the fanboys immediate response is LS swap. I've got a '69 Camaro with a 427SBC on E85 with an F2 Procharger and I love beating the fanboys with it.
@@Steve69SS396 LS fanboys and sheep have alot in common. I can't stand old muscle cars with LS swaps. Shit angers me to look at it. A built LS in a 2010 Camaro or a 2004 GTO or modern truck is ok, but putting them in old Chevelles and Camaros pisses me off. Ain't like the old school engines can't get the job done. I'm sure your boosted 427 sbc is more than 99.99% of the population needs. But the dipshits still hollar LS swap it. When I see the soyboys asking about making more power with their 290hp LS engines, I tell them to bigblock swap it.
I like the LS because of better gasketing and much better stock numbers, but I like SBC too
The sealing on Ls is superior for sure.
I don’t know why people get mad. Like what you like. Build what you want to build for you. Just be happy we have so many good options around these days. I have a Sbc & a LS. I just wish I could justify a big block, because the big block is still king 👑
I also owned a 302, a dodge 318, I like em all. We as Americans are lucky. My 2 best friends have different rides. A 68 Z28 with a 383 & the other a Fox body coyote swap. I’m driving a 79 Malibu with a LS as my main. We are lucky to have so many great choices.
@@popeye089 I wouldn’t say big block is king. What factory headed big block Chevy is going to make more power than a factory ls7 head? Even if you port a factory rec port head it ain’t gonna flow more than a ported ls7 heads. Only way a bbc is making more power is when you go aftermarket. Then all bets are off you can get 1000 cubic inch big blocks and big chief headed motors. But stock for stock ls7 is king.
@@rle1020 dude the engines we are talking about this channel are all built up engines. So yes in the realm of this channel and the content we are watching, big block is king on a straight. Don’t come with a Karen argument
Yep most people will not break a sbc through the mains and if you take a 2 bolt main and put splayed 4 bolt caps on it it'll hold alot of power
I like evenly spaced ports. Seems like you get better ex/intakes because of it.
2 bolt main 400 were better for making big horsepower. My old man used to make 700+ hp 421 sbc for late model dirt cars way back in late 80s early 90s. He said the 2 bolt oe blocks were better for big horsepower stroked engines because you had more solid metal for strength. They would run like we all know wide open damn near entire races 100 laps. My dads engines made with secondhand parts and his knowledge would beat sometimes who’s considered the goat by many now Billy Moyer who had the best of the best under his hood.
I'm looking to go 421sbc with my ol 400sbc for my 87c10....just for a weekend hell raiser
This does don’t surprise me. When I was building a motor for my 69 Camaro i built a fairly stout 406. Do you know how many people gave me a hard time that I wasn’t going LS. When you know…you know.Good video.
I believe the big difference is you can get a 5.3 out of a junkyard put a camshaft in it maybe some Valvesprings and make well over 450 hp you’re not gonna do that with any 350 out of the junkyard without completely building it up
I think that’s where people get the idea that the LS is better for the most part
if you’re going to build from the ground up you similar sized parts with similar airflow you’re going to get similar results in my opinion
An engine is a big metal ball of clay in my opinion it’s just an air pump if you know what you’re doing you can make anything work and anything make horsepower
@@DSRE535 cheapest 5.3 online is over 2000 though
I’m wrong on that nvrmnd
@@roknroy1 how much does it cost to build a 450 hp Chevy 350 including all the machine work and the core
High-performance really isn’t cheap no matter what you do, it’s just that the newer the engine is to have been produced the less likely you’re gonna have to pay to have machine work done and the headache that comes along with it,
if you’re gonna start from scratch and build the entire engine you can pretty much make anything work the way you want it to imo
Hey Eric,
Tim here, the copy argument is worthless........couch dudes doin their thing.....Ford is a dif animal.....requires dif approach.....u know that......but a Ford dyno mule wud sure help the couch dudes.......and ur depth of testing is just AWESOME!!!...i'm a Poncho guy, but watch ALL smart vids, as ICE is an ICE.....keep doin what ur doin.....i personally find it refreshing and concise!!!.....PEACE my brother!!
Always enjoy your content , Eric.
On the battle between sbc and ls , you proved my findings . They go like this .......if you are building a max-ish effort smallblock , flip a coin . You can make a sbc as bad as you want . Where the ls shines is on a drivable fast streetcar . The 550-600 hp level is reached with a much milder LS than the sbc . Your test showed a comparison between a 260-270 @.050 solid roller and a much milder hydraulic roller LS. Two different levels of radical , but power levels were almost identical . The head flow and valve angles on the ls require less cam timing to hit that hot small block power level . Either one works, but the LS is an easier combo to street drive.
From one Info Junkie to another, thank you for my fix!
Push some serious boost through an ls and watch it lift the heads. 4 head bolts/cylinder(like a sbf) vs 5 for a sbc.
23 degree combination will have diminishing returns in the 650-730 hp range an Ls platform will take off in strides at the 700-900 range .
They do make aftermarket heads for the sbc , both engines have a 4.400 bore spacing both engines will make the same power. I’m not knocking the LS , but there are known for excessive windage which will cost HP.
I would expect the Ls to have a greater advantage because of less friction in the piston rings etc…
All engines can make power how much money do you want to spend! LS 15° heads like to rev higher to make torque then a sbc with a 23° head in my opinion. There are more bolts to clamp the heads on the sbc and are cheaper to build. I have a 370LS with a s480 turbo done many LS turbo builds but I keep them at a safe power level and they work well.
So far the Ls heads reving higher has not proved out yet over 23degree heads.
@@WeingartnerRacing Yeah I am sure I was just saying low rpm torque is better on the 23° heads and I am sure camshaft plays a big part.
The sbc is a great motor. The LS shines under tremendous stress due to the skirted block. The LS will survive better when pushed to its limits
the weak point is boost and the number of head bolts. a SBC is slightly better there.
@@KingJT80 I disagree although I would stud heads either way.
Ps. I’m running a small block 355 with Afr 227 heads right now. I’m quite sure I would grenade it would boost.
@@Gregoman89 i mean clamping force not the block strength. LS will lift a head and have done so. its just a physical fact they need more head bolts to put the wood to them
@@KingJT80 I would like to see that tested.
@@Gregoman89 its been tested. this is why guys move to the different heads with the different bolt patterns when they start getting up there in boost levels on an LS
for gen 1s its not the clamp force its the breathing. thats why Gen ! SBC guys move to 18 degree heads
Torque monsters them 400’s are.
I also don't like the idea of a LS3 head on the 4" bore. I believe its valve shrouded from the cylinder wall. I personally run a 2.08 intake valve tfs 235 on a 4.070 bore.
As far as I understand, the engine does not understand Brand or Generation.
Pick a HP Goal at a given RPM. Pick a TQ curve shape ( peak vs flat ).
Pick a Static CR.
Then optimize each platform.
My guess is the actual HP and TQ will be very close. Excluding any differences related to Windage and Friction.
I own both engines with similar displacement ( 421 EFI SBC, LS7 ).
Both are really good.
We like them all. I actually think the SBM is the most under rated engine for performance applications.
The copy argument is always such garbage. If its a copy of a Ford, what's the Ford a copy of? An OVH Benz engine from the 30's? If we go back far enough, everyone takes notes on what works and doesn't. That's engineering. If ones a copy, so is everything else.
LS has similar stroke and Deck height of the Ford Cleveland engine
Yeah i always thought it was 100% copium.
The 351 Cleveland uses exactly the same 350sbc bore size and a stroke closer to a 350 Chevy than the LS deck height is to a Cleveland deck height so really a 351 must actually be a small block Chevy.
@@davidphillips3953 wrong, the SBC 350 deck height is 9.00 and the 400 SBC is 9.45....the Cleveland is 9.2
@@brianb8489 350SBC 400SBC both have the same deck height...
Yup, all engines are fun.
My last build was a 1.0 L Geo 3 cylinder.
Everything loves compression!!
I think the biggest strength the LS has is its so cheap. You get all the hypo mods, roller cam and rockers, 15 deg alloy heads, light weight pistons and crank, superior ignition system, the list goes on, in a stock junkyard engine. Small block chevys sound better though. But they both have nothing on a Ford Clevelands sound!
For LS Intakes to test that I think would be interesting
Stock LS3 Intake
Ported + Rod Modded LS3 Intake
Fast LSXR 102
Ported Fast LSXR 102
Performance Design XS LS3 Intake
All long runner street stuff that should apply to common LS builds.
I’m on carb
@@WeingartnerRacing Maybe try a holley hi-ram with a dual 4150 top against a single plane and a dual plane. I'd find that interesting.
Thanks Eric, great for the sbc!
LS has similar bore and deck height of the Ford Cleveland
This is what I’ve been saying for years, I like LS’s but I love SBC’s each has there place. Fanboyism is because of complete ignorance/heard mentality, they’ve got to fit in somehow.
Well done young man. Now you have me thinking on the dynamics of the LS, that cause the loss of power with a better carb. I like engines. I try to study them, and see what makes them tick. Small blocks are getting harder to find, unless you buy an aftermarket block. The LS is easy enough to pick up cheap, and, as you said, easy to make changes for power research. I'm just surprised that the dominator didn't pick up power. I'm researching logical reliable power upgrades for my 2019. I plan on staying N/A, because it's a daily, and I don't like the "fan boy" trend of adding turbo's, or SC's. It's just me. I follow several channels, and review trends. Some channels, I don't believe in their choice of cams, but, I don't have the cash to play. I've seen them disprove their own theories. Others say certain things, but the basis of their research is with other engine platforms. So...I'll continue to observe, and see what info you found out. Should be interesting.
“Fighting for second, big block Chevy is the winner” you’re dang right. Love this video. I’ve never cared which one is “better” I just prefer small block chevy’s and like you I can’t stand LS fanboys. Great video!
Love the video an Info Mr. W!!
Eric, You are really making some great content, Very informative and technical , I have some stuff to donate if you want them, Stock vortec L31 heads and Ls 317 heads, and some old 882 heads ported long time ago, This is at the moment how i can help with your chanel for more dyno and R&D. Let me know.
Probably both. I just don’t know when I would test them.
@@WeingartnerRacing I will ship them to you, do what you want with them.. Thanks for the great content!!
That’s kinda crazy, sbc with 23 degree heads are making more power than 15 and 11 degree heads on LS in most cases. I am eating this up. I love it, so much good data. I’m actually in the middle of choosing between a 6.0 build or 406 sbc build.
Sacre bleu Éric, de l'information bien superbement expliquée! Will you reduce the LSA of the LS cam, like trying a 110, 108, 107 and 106, with the same the duration. It could get more hp and torque or not.
Not a fan boy of either engine specifically, but I like good powerful engines no matter what brand or style . I feel the cnc porting of the sbc heads , the extra bore size , and aggressive lobe ramp of solid roller allowed the sbc to shine in the end . The high flow numbers on the ls heads I wouldn’t think matter is you’re not using a camshaft to take advantage of extra flow . Also don’t Ls engines kinda lack on the exhaust side of the head ? Thanks for the videos.
Great vid. But why does everyone use a smog 350 engine as their comparison against an ls. There were many other sbc from the factory that made decent power. Eric at least you compared apples to apples.
yeah at least say a L98 with ported heads and a cam. thats what lS guys ALWAYS say. LS with head work and cam
Or a 375hp 327 vs a 5.3 LM7. I'd put my money on the old 327. Or a 1970 370hp 350 LT-1 vette engine vs a 1998 5.7 LS. Be a better comparison. LS fanboys like to refer to the late 70s smog 350s with a 2-barrel and 145hp. Big difference between those smog engines and the muscle car era shit. Especially when ya use modern aftermarket heads and parts on them old engines.
If you build an engine with the same displacement and similar components then it will perform essentially the same....
The LS gets the head start because of what you get in stock form.
No but the ls was built in 427 cubic inches and not,400 you are correct.
The best carb intake for the LS motor seems to be the CID LS3 intake. It even beats the factory LS3 intake, but here I am being a parrot 😂
I would love to test it.
Lots of differences between the two. Valve angles port location, hights and angles..all variables which effect power output and efficiency. All these things can be modified to be similar with time and money. It's all in what you want to build and how crazy you want to get. All are basically air pumps..
It’s hard to outdo the simplicity and versatility of a small block
Thanks for clearing up the details....
The 23 degree head for the small block is old and out dated. The SBC and SBF 400 cid made 900hp 25 years ago in NA hot street class. How long ago did pro stock truck make 1100 with 358 inches? Most these Ls guys weren't even born yet.
That is the deal, if you spend the money and buy the triple throw down heads any engine will make power, I raced last night, my car is running 1.7 60s in a fox body and the engine is a stock 6.0 with 200.000 miles with a 230 at . 50 baby cam. I cant count the SBC and bbc engines ive built. But without the heads,a sbc wont touch an ls.
ATT ERIC,
I have 2 factory production, virgin 400 blocks. Both rough bored for a .020 finish overbore, hot tanked, no cam brgs or soft plugs. One is a 2 bolt main, the other 4 bolt mains. I'm in my 60's now, and afraid I'll never use these. Both have accumulated some light surface rust from setting the last two decades in my shop. Could you use one or both to replace your dyno mule block?
Thinking around 700 for the pair. You pay shipping from Wa state.
Let me know and we'll exchange emails.
Also on your testing, what do you think.... Both sbc 23 degree and LS3 (15 degree?) have similar flowing cyl heads, say around 330cfm and cam specs.
I believe because of the better "line of sight in ports", better combustion chambers, better valve inclination angle of the LS, it's going to beat the SBC by around 30-40HP. In other words the LS possibly has a more efficient inlet tract and needs less total ig. timing....
Thoughts on this? And willing to barter on the blocks for a channel member purchase.
What makes the ls so appealing is a junkyard 6.0 with a cam, intake and headers is going to make 500+hp. You’re not going to do that with any stock headed sbc. Where the ls really shines is when you boost them in stock form. Now on the blocks we made 869whp with 010 350 sbc on nitrous and didn’t hurt the block. Never pushed a ls that hard but there are plenty of them out there well over a 1000whp. I love a sbc especially a big cube motor but a ls just a better platform. When it comes to aftermarket they both can be built equally.
you know what is even better than your LS making 1000whp, its been proven you can make 1500whp with a Coyote with stock cams. You cant do that with any of the stock LS cams in any size LS.
@@nova467spanker Coyote is not even in the discussion because it is DOHC with cam phasing on all 4 cams, you have the ability to make it act like an ideal cam for the whole rev range.
Bit outside of the chat on LS vs SBC when you talk about a 4 cam engine mate.
Def a nice piece though
lol!!! Loved this video!! Sorry man but you are not going to win. People are people. lol!! I remember back in the day a kid wanted to race me with his 350 Chevelle. All I ever heard was about how much power this thing had. I had a 72 duster 340. Yeah the year killed the hp on. One wheel wander. Finally I got upset and said let’s go to get my ass kicked. We went out and ran and half way down the street I didn’t see him! What the heck? I stopped at the end. He comes up and I asked you miss a gear or what? He goes no. I go what? He goes your car is that fast! ! I can tell you my car was not fast. Maybe 15 second. I get so tired of of these guys saying the same crap over and over how bad ass there crap is . I love how you show your stuff. This is it! Facts are facts. It’s how you make the motor in the end you get 2 or 3 hp in the end then the other person. Good video! Thank you so much. I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.
@@replica4132 ya I know the Coyote is not in the conversation but "LS this and LS that" is old and when I hear stuff like the LS can make 1000whp I like to point out there are other engines doing stuff even better. Just sucks the Coyote are so damn big dimensionaly cause I guarantee the LS fan boy engine swaps would be a 1/3 of what they are now.
yes but the LS has VVT also - that means cam phasing too 🙃
Once the junkyards run out of LS engines it’s no longer going to be a cheap build. At that point a BBC will cost the same to build and you’ll make 300+ Hp more
Id rather build a bigblock for maximum power. Still king shit. Hard to beat a properly built bigblock chevy with anything. Been that way since they were invented to dominate the NASCAR tracks in 1963. Only GM engine originally designed as a racing engine first, pass car & truck engine later. They kicked everybodys ass on the street & tracks for decades. Still do to this day.
Yeah and they've got that deep guttural sound too , always makes your ears perk up
Go big or go home, loved your comment, Rat motors brought big power to the people. Imagine if the mark III would have gotten off the drawing board with 5 “ bore spacing, symmetrical intake ports, scary news for mother mopar and the blue oval.
Pretty much grew up at the dragstrip. When I was a kid I could tell just by the sound the cars that had bigblocks in them. They definitely have a unique sound. Real easy to go fast with too. I'm building 3 rowdy bigblocks right now. All basic old school shit really, all 3 will make 700 to 800+hp NA. Could drive them on the street daily if one wanted to. MPG pretty bad tho, and E-85 makes it even worse. But anyone that's never drove a 700-800hp bigblock street machine don't know what they're missing. Make ya forget all about a LS or SBC.
I've built hundreds of SBCs, at least 20 LS type engines, mostly LQ4s & LM7s, and a bunch of bigblocks since the early 80s, The difference between them is obvious. Most young bucks have never got to experience a well built Rat. That's why they all cry LS.... They heard on the internet that a stock 300,000 mile junkyard core LS with a $200 dollar Chinese turbo will make 1000+hp and live. I've actually seen one do it, engine blew up before it ever came off the dyno. Sometimes bullshit is just bullshit. If it was that easy, I'd have 10 of them.
I've always loved the SBC!!! I'm am relatively new to the LS world. They are both capable engines. Slap forged pistons and rods and a good set of heads they perform really similar. Turbo either and they both make crazy power.
Keep them rolling man, would LOVE to see a solid roller in the Ls! But I know that gets pricy, I can’t say the Ls will make more with the same cam the sbc has, however, put a 230ish cam in that sbc and see if it keeps up, I can say that my solid roller 383 has better drivability than my 231 cam 370 Ls
I’ve said for 20 plus years all you need to make ls power is gen 1 Chevy with afr heads
Love the videos can’t wait to see what your Cathedral ported heads do. I have a 6.0 that I’m building with just forged rods and pistons and don’t know if I’ll be good with some ported by you 799’s or if I’ll see a major difference with ported ls3 I already have a fast intake so I’m hoping ported 799 is plenty
Iv'e seen over 1000 N/A with a sbc , havn't heard of an LS doing it N/A yet Just my 2 cents ,
With 15* heads
Or canted vlv heads but yes
I think they made 1140 out of 400 ci but we are talking all aftermarket.
Your ears are closed SAM did it years ago
@@cedricwilson2055 news to me , he must run in a different circle
@@davelewis2174 it’s on you tube. Held both ends of the na ls record for a while Sam is school of automotive machinist. Type in 1000 hp Sam tech ls
One item with LS based engines that I do not like and it is the intake bolt hole angle.
Makes for more work when port matching them and you’re relegated to a clamp of some sort in order to flow test with the intake mounted.
the ls might be better but they are but ugly looking compared to both the small block and big block motors. much better looking motors to me. ill stick to old school.
I've heard a lot of old school sbc guys say they were unimpressed with 1/4 mile times per hp. They made the switch to ls, made x amount of power, and were just underwhelmed with the times.
Ah-ha Eric , who else has pedestal rockers - yup FORD my guy. Who else has a dry intake - The Mighty CLEVELAND - Ford brother. I just had to 😁
Lol so did Oldsmobile. Maybe the olds was the clone the whole time (joking)
Olds was first 1949
LS engines were not originally about more power. They are about better mpg and emissions while making similar power to older engines. Thats what they were about.
I’m 64 years old and I’m a old school fan and I have LS engines, when the marbles quit rolling around I’ll plug in my 6.0
Great job great information.
If you build them the same with the same specs. They will generally act the same. It's just an air pump.
Eric,.. i think they mean the spread port design, like BBCs unlike SBCs ports being close together .?
Eric, try 1/4 preload on the SBC lifters. On a flat hydraulic I have found slightly more vaccum and a smoother idle on about 5 engines in the past 30 years. But not on a hydraulic roller yet.
Erson and PBM parts have never been nice to me.
Grubworm Camaro was making around 2000hp with a production block mid 90s LT1 350, theres that.... Runs in the 6s at 220+mph too. Hes running a Bowtie block now and making more power. It uses a 3.25 stroke crank. Those stock blocks will take more power than people think. I have a 97 LT1 block, it dont look much different than a same year Vortec 5.7 as far as the block thickness & shit. I wouldnt be afraid to put a turbo on it.
The copy that I’ve heard is only a Ford Cleveland cylinder head.
The ford cle land head looks very aimilar to a bbc head
The big difference between the Sbc and Ls is mostly seen by us “low buck” guys.
An Lm7 5.3l with a cam can make more power than cammed and carbed vortec 350 for example.
In fact a stock Lm7 makes similar power to the late 60s performance sbcs (Richard holdner did a video on this with a dz 302, L76 327, Lt1 350 and an Lm7 5.3L).
That and the cost and availability is actually better on the “junkyard” LS motors compared to vortecs 350s or other “HO” variants of the sbcs( at least in my area ).
Now if you’re comparing high dollar builds like in the vid? Yeah the gap is gonna be pretty much nonexistent.
i mean most people who build vortec 350s will get around 425HP with a decent cam and minimal head work like pinning the studs for higher spring pressures where a 5.3 is kind a small bore and getting 450 or so is about average for most budget guys
otherwise people just go get a 6.0 to make more power easier
Awesome love this one
Im in the catbird seat because im a SBC fanboy so its a win win if its better woohoo if it gets beat oh well it was beat by a newer platform. I will say all GM factory parts the LS is superior GM the vortec and LT4 was the pinical, and as far as i know the LS1 wasore powerful than the LT4. With factory heads You can build a pretty stout engine with stock 5.3 heads and gen 1 its vortec or double humps and there has been some pretty stout vortec headed builds tho.
You never go wrong when you build SBC 400 with good heads and cam but i like ls staf too..
Eric appreciate your video. Does the base cam ls1 50mm cam size have one over on an sbc? Better grinds? Power potential? Your thoughts.
when it comes to small blks,those 2 engs. cant compete to after market 434 chevy and the big blk windsors.i understand the 2 after market engs. are more expensive to build but that 434 bracket eng. is one tuff son of a gun to beat on a eigth mi. drag strip,one of the best combos period.dont believe me,come over to petersburg va and watch dinwiddes regular saturday night bracket races and you will be shown.
The trouble with facts is you have to deal with them they can`t be ignored.
I wish it was true.😂
Nice testing like usual but man yep I am glad your able to prove people wrong but there is always gonna be those people who will ignore it and saying it's bs and I hate those people I deal with then all the time it's annoying. But thank you for sharing like always. And I do see a ton of LS comments already geez.
I see exactly what you mean.
Here's how the whole LS is superior thing started..... people where taking stock 5.7s (LS1) and simply putting a aftermarket camshaft and headers on them and making good HP. Can a stock 350 chevy with just a simple cam change and headers make the same power? Probably not. Now when you start modifying the sbc with aftermarket heads, roller camshaft and roller valve train and higher compression yes the difference is ALOT less. But most wankers out there that solely swing on LS nuts only do the basic stuff to them and they respond very well and make good power.
Yeah alot of people forget that engines are air pumps. If both engines move the same amount of air, they make the same power
a 350 vortec might not make 500 like an LS1 but itll make 425+ thats been seen for a number of years
@@KingJT80and a gorilla cam
@@cedricwilson2055 it dont take a big cam to make 425 with a vortec headed 350
just some flat top pistons and a mid 230's duration hydro roller and a 750 and air gap intake
done deal. plenty of people have done it
@@KingJT80 230 is big for a 350. going to need a 2500/ 3000 stall. Minimum
Funny thing on UA-cam, Steve Moris did a similar test only boosted, about the same time.....within hrs. 6.0 ltr VS a 383 from 2013! Sorry LS guys! ERIC, you made me laugh over the Ford comparison/copy thingy. I didn't know that was a deal. Thanks for all you do sir!!
That LS had a street blower and ported stock heads and that 383 was a race motor with a way larger blower so who spreads false info?
@robholmes2129 A good engine is only as good as the sum of it's parts. Both used belt driven pro chargers of the same size, this was the whole idea. New vs old. BTW Morris isn't going to get blown away by a garage built engine, not on his show!
@@cliffwright9842 watch that vid gain the LS had a torquestorm blower which didn't make near the boost as the one on that small block,which was a procharger F blower which are not at all the same size.The LS was making @14 lbs with a slipping belt and the Small block was making @25 lbs!!!!
@@robholmes2129 thank you
@@robholmes2129in a max effort build a Gen 1 SBC will make the Same power as an LS both engine are4.400 bore spacing, there’s no getting around that , and yes the LS will cost significantly more then a SBC to make that same power. At that point you might as well build A BBC and make 300 more HP n/A for the same price as a LS motor.
1) Pedestal mount.....like a SBF. JK, I can tell the SBF boys got your dander up.
2) 427" LS was a factory offering.
3) If we opt for factory head vs factory head on an otherwise comparable motor, LS wins. Put whatever double hump extra rare casting number SBC head vs. an LS7 or even an LS3, and we all know who wins.
4) I disagree with your assertion that the cams are comparable. Your lash argument might hold water when it comes to advertised specs, but not at .050". Don't believe me? Bolt a wheel on the crank and remove all doubt. There's a video idea for you that doesn't require a dyno fee. I appreciate you.
Soon as he showed that it was solid roller vs hyd roller means his comparison isnt equal. sbc has more compression too, not alot but still more.
Thank you for data like this. I also share data but it doesn’t get done enough.
Data is Data
SBC makes more power than the LS because it has a shorter rod! I just had to say it! LOL! But what is the truth surrounding short rod engines? They do seem to be torquier. Is there any truth to it?
Toss up from what I’ve read and top builders. Didn’t see short rods on the winning ls and Chevy emc challenge winners
Dart block LS heads is a great combo maybe . idk if its true or not but some say the LS 6 bolt mans creates turbulence working against the crank. So the 4 bolt main dark blocks eliminates that maybe idk. Both great engines if i had a LS id build it if i had a SBC id build it lol!!
I prefer the SBC over the LS because I find the latter boring, honestly. These days LS swaps are as cliche as the rush to the airport at the end of every romantic comedy with how common they seem. Now, make something AWD with the LS4 and you'll have my attention, as there's not too many people willing to do something like that.
Prior to LS swaps SBC swaps were the cliche. Why are either so popular? Cheap available power. Typically they are the cheapest and easiest to find and reach a given power output.
@@davidwickboldt712 I thought that, too. We've come full circle with the old stuff getting popular again, the Flathead Ford V8 is getting some love from younger guys now as well.
But the ls came in 427 ci.
Another your running a camshaft designed for long runner efi intake. Not my choice of camshaft for something with a single plane intake
What would you pick.
@WeingartnerRacing I'd be looking for something with a IVC of 51-53@.050 and 108-110 max on the LSA. Intake Duration in the range of upper 230s to low 240s, exhaust in the 25x range and .650ish lift
What does lsa have to do with intake length?
Olds rocket 88 was probably the first
BBC for the win. Have 1300hp on stock 454 block. Over 100 passes.
Cams duration and LSA need to be closer, valve angle need to be the same. And intakes need to be the same. Can’t compare a 4500 intake to a 4150 with a 4500 adapter. Just my opinion. They are both small engines, about the same.
I love sbc. Stock to stock the ls will win. You cant do a cam swap and springs on a stock sbc 350 or 400and make 550hp. Like you can with ls 6.0 its proven.
Thanks brother....
Great video LOL Oh the comments kill me
Yep some of the comments are comedic gold.
Just to add unnecessary information the gen 2 sbc 6 is basically a gen1 that doesn't have water or a distributor in the intake. Its limited to a 4. bore (unless you get a spec-1 aftermarket block).
You can put a distributor in it. There arent too many intakes that will, gmpp makes a dual plane with a dist hold down. The cam still has the gear for the oil pump.
@timothybayliss6680 simple Redhill intake or heads for gen 1 and you have every intake that will fit on a gen 1
They copied the 427 high riser. Rail rockers, symmetrical ports, cross bolt mains, front oil pump, cathedral intake ports, deep skirts, and more. They copied these because nothing in engineering is revolutionary, it's evolutionary.
And in 1963 GM was forced by NASCAR to surrender 2 "Daytona Mystery 427 Chevys" to Ford before they could run them in the 63 Daytona 500....Those "Mystery Motors" had canted valve cylinder heads....Gave Ford the inspiration for the "385 Series" 429-460 motors debuted in 1966....Copy Cats! The MKIV 396 Chevy hit the showrooms in 1965....So? Where would Ford have been without the stolen R&D given to them by Bill France?