I would like to know what Marshall was about to say at 48:04 though... I feel as if the discussion is slightly incomplete because of interrupting the train of thought he was getting into.
I used to work with a guy in the art field and he had a really great technique to elicit honest feedback from his art colleagues. He would often show aspects of his work and ask the question: "Can you help me figure out what's not working with this piece?" It immediately got rid of the over-praise and helped to constructively focus on what he could do to improve. It really opened up the floor for honest feedback.
I do something very similar to that. I hate over-praise, I mean it's nice that people like your stuff, but I can't see how it helps you improve at all.
I love having Marshall just talking about his knowledge because he is a man of experience of living in two centuries, met many people, saw many things, people and places. Learnt his mistakes, other people's mistakes and also shares his findings with people he taught or talks to. He references so many people that are wise and helpful much like himself to remind others of subtle things that happens everyday. I love Marshall personality overall
As a professor I try to start positive pointing out what has been done well. Then I move on to the 'areas of opportunity' for the stuff that could improve. The wording helps keeping it positive... although sometimes I feel it is too cheesy. Brillant as always Marshall and Stan. Lots of congratz for your new born Stan
Used to belong to a forum (now dead) where critique was king, everyone tried their best to help fellow artists. Yes, some people gave bad advice, but it was pointed out numerous times that learning to differentiate the good from the bad was also part of the learning curve. Trying to please everyone wasn't good and just taking the bits that would help you at the level you were at was priceless. I also loved doing critiques as it taught me so much about where I needed to improve and helped me to see mistakes in my own work. I hated it when there would be a pile in on an artist. I remember one who posted a picture of a head where the girl's bangs went behind her eyeballs and was seriously being mocked for it; I took the picture, shortened the bangs and re-posted it. The face was fine in proportions and the artist was surprised at the difference it made and questioned whether she's actually drew it. I assured her she had and it shut the mockers up. It's important to also not to follow the crowd if you see something different than the rest. I still have the before and after on my computer to remind me what really helping feels like.
Agreed, I learned that I don't learn unless I show what I'm drawing and get some feedback. My issue is exactly in finding good feedback, friends and family are often just praising everything and online communities are often enthusiastic but not necessarily aware of how to help. This video helped me understand how to give good objective feedback too 👍
I specialized in drawing anime and I'm in the FB group. I went to the forums seeking critique a few times, and while a number of them were helpful and constructive, there were a few who were not just there to trash my "style", but also tried to strawman and frame me as close-minded to criticism I guess in order for me to be disliked by the Proko community, even though I was very active in not only showing gratitude, but also posting updates on applying changes to the particular illustration I put out based on criticism. While I trust that the community , the helpful part of it at least, know better than to listen to these slanders directed to me, it does feel discouraging to participate more frequently. I think as important as giving good critiques is also developing a good environment for artists who are determined to learn and grow.
I just came to the realization that Marshall and Stan kinda look like Kratos and Atreus from God of War and had to comment on it, would make a good thumbnail ngl lol 🤣
I've watched most of the draftsmen episodes but I was putting this one off for a bit because I didn't really know what the episode would be about. I'm glad I started watching and can't wait for Proko 2.0 sounds awesome.
softer way to say that "stop drawing anime/manga" line is to say "if you learn your basic drawing skills, you will know how and which to simplify or which to exagerrate" i spend years tried to study only anime/manga drawings, i just can't improve myself, i can copy manga page/drawing close to perfect from gesture, contour, pen stroke, effects, etc, but when i tried to create something from the top of my head i struggle A LOT, i almost give up, untill 2 years ago i encounter proko, modern day james and other youtubers, and i try to do stuff on their lesson, i HATED doing it, that is one of the most miserable drawing experience in my life, i didn't draw anything i like and i stopped often for 1 week, 2 week, even months without drawing, but after those lessons i started to understand basic and improved my proportion, value, anatomy, perspective (the one i hate the most) and other important stuff, after 1 year of lesson (here and there) i started to understand basics, and now 1 year after that i am confident enough in my skill to start on my dream manga project, i am nowhere close to any of these masters i mentioned, but now i enjoyed it more and i find ways to express things in my heads to put it on paper/digital, i regret all the time i spend wandering and doubting my dream, because all i am lacking is to convey my thoughts into the paper, i wish i can go back and yell at myself, "learn the basic first !!" because manga and anime are in many ways same as cartoon or any art, it used exagerration and manipulation on basic drawing element, and to have the ability to accomplish those thing you need to know how it works and how to manipulate it, in the past i always get butt hurt when anyone said that line to me, but now i'm the one who kinda use that to others. in softer way
Great episode, something I do think that is worth mentioning with regards to triangulation though is that often times, even if it is over the internet, people who are doing critiques in communities might also be prominent figures in the industry/unreceptive to critiques of their critiques/have low self awareness and the risk of being honest is potentially not worth it due to damaging potential job prospects when the person isn't really able to engage in that sort of reflection/healthy communication in the first place. I've also found that when you're coming from a background/demographic that is starkly different from the one that makes up the majority of a community, there can be a lot of subtle passive aggressiveness and unhelpful "criticism" that will just push you out of the space if you try to bring to light. I overall agree that direct communication is important and that unnecessary triangulation is very damaging and creates dysfunctional environments, but I do think it's important to keep the nuances of the situation in mind.
Today I was asked to critique/help people in my class and this video seemed to arrive in my recommended just on time. I tried my best but I think I may have come off a little too cold. Thanks for the advice!
There was this one time where one of my teachers critiqued my work and I was reasoning their saying...as in, reasoning out why I had put that particular element and color, and questioning to what he was saying purely bcz I wanted to learn as to why I cannot do that way and why I should do that way... But things didn't turn out good. I got emotional and moved away cuz I didn't want to shed tears infront of the teacher, and he thought I moved because I didn't have any answers to him and said to my classmates that this is called giving up and the person questioning you wins. (He said , " things have to be universal, and u need to think whether people will understand or not." Whereas I was in the mindset of remembering to learn that WE need to express ourselves, the most important is to express what an artist is feeling and a work can have different interpretations.) I calmed myself down n went back to listen to what he was saying cuz I was a student and I was wanting to learn...and so I questioned him. But instead he got infuriated and scolded me when left the class . And now even though I said sorry for my behaving i feel like the things haven't been solved between the teacher and me. And as u said if a student is thin skinned, the other students might not help him in correcting/critiquing him...i feel that's what's happening....and where else I want to learn and improve myself, i need people to specify certain things which I do not know I'm doing wrong.
do you think you need to provide more positive critiques than negative critiques? like 4 positive aspects + 2 constructive aspects? also what if your personality is not that of a cheerleader? does that mean that you have to learn to be a cheerleader in order to be effective at providing critique? could you also give tips on how to be thicker skinned receiving critiques?
The way we handled crit in class began with the person describing the piece, and then we’d go back and forth with questions and advice. Is the composition reading in the way the artist intended? If no, point out how they could push something or let it fade out. Point out tangents or confusing parts. Always, always point out what is working and how to accentuate it.
Constructive critique is always useful. The question is usually, is it constructive criticism, opinion, or other? Have you asked what the original intent is? Is it realism with form, or a more modern flat painting?
Recently googled one of my favorite artist to see what he was up to, it had been a long time since I checked in. The term “Lowbrow” comes up, I had categorized him as a surrealist in my mind. Got me thinking 🤔 what exactly differentiates “highbrow” and “lowbrow” art, does an art critics critique mean more than a fellow artist’s critique?
Great episode. When you move to peer critique, you could have a feedback star rating for the critquer. Much the same way sellers get on eBay and people get on AirBnB. Rate me on this idea 😁. Love the show.
I watch all episodes from youtube. And that episode in particular was interrupted so many times with ads, that`s inst fun to watch. Can you guys remove the ads from the middle of the episode? Thanks for the show and the content.
If they don't change how the ads are placed, why not try and scroll to the adds and tigger all of them before actually watching the episode? That way you can have an uninterrupted viewing experience and they also can receive the ad revenue.
My wife is my big critic. She doesn't know art, but she knows what looks good. So if something bugs her, I assume it will bug any other viewer. And if she points out something also bugging me, then I know it needs to be fixed.
hello, nice work, please make video about the social media community, the bad behaver and the problem of attaching the youtuber or tiktok artist, for being honest, not rude not rude but talking about what other artists don't talk about. specially the bad comment from people that reached your video by the explore , people far a way from art or simply not artists, thank you
Marshall is not quite on the mark with his definition. The core of the world refers to critical thinking - analysis, reasoned thinking. The modern use of 'criticism' is a misuse or misapprehension of the word, as critical analysis is often seen as negative. This is no doubt because professional critics often fail the reasoned aspect of the job.
Hey, Stan, can you talk ANY SLOWER? Duh. Hey, Marshall, can you not insist that Stan hold A COMPREHENSIVE SYMPOSIUM on emotional IQ IN THE MIDDLE OF A PODCAST? Duh. Just some minor critiques, is all. Otherwise good stuff.
Bad critique issue: what to do when instructors look at the nude female figure, esp. drawn by a male, as immediately suspect; little else is questioned, and it is not a "wow, those proportions are off"; it is "why are you drawing a nude female? why no nude male works?" I mean, the addition of a work with a male nude will establish "equality" in my works? Is this the world now? Sounds like sexism to me, but for a male to claim sexism, well, that doesn't go over well. Sigh.
Drawing lots of males helps you figure out what makes a female body more feminine as opposed to masculine. So it can definitely help. Also, I don't think most people who are into figure drawing would critique you like that? A lot of these people don't even think about breasts or butts or anything like that. They look at a pose and they're all like, "Oh shoot. You can really see the calf muscle stretching over there, and her serratus is really obvious on the right side," lol. Anyway, the world is what the world is. Any energy spent on trying to "fight sexism against male artists who love drawing girls" is just energy you could have used to get better at drawing lol.
I don't know about you, but for me art is whatever I want it to be. Why are you so upset with an instructor telling you something that's so obviously subjective? It's clear that he/she had an agenda and isn't worth listening to when you hear those words. You can draw JUST females if you want. Why you would do so is none of their business, and if they can't give you a critique related to, you know, actual art, then you're wasting your time with them.
It is better to learn both male and female anatomy to learn the similarities and differences simultaneously, the muscles are all the same its just the hormones that change the proportions respective to the individual's body type.
nothing wrong with it, as long as you know that there is a chance all your figures will look femenine, even the males, because you have a bias and are used to draw nude female figures only. Nothing to do with an agenda.
Make sure to subscribe and hit the notification bell so you’ll know when part 2 comes out!
I would like to know what Marshall was about to say at 48:04 though... I feel as if the discussion is slightly incomplete because of interrupting the train of thought he was getting into.
Please o🙏
I used to work with a guy in the art field and he had a really great technique to elicit honest feedback from his art colleagues. He would often show aspects of his work and ask the question: "Can you help me figure out what's not working with this piece?" It immediately got rid of the over-praise and helped to constructively focus on what he could do to improve. It really opened up the floor for honest feedback.
I do something very similar to that. I hate over-praise, I mean it's nice that people like your stuff, but I can't see how it helps you improve at all.
I'm honestly amazed UA-cam comments actually had some really good advice! Bravo!
I love having Marshall just talking about his knowledge because he is a man of experience of living in two centuries, met many people, saw many things, people and places. Learnt his mistakes, other people's mistakes and also shares his findings with people he taught or talks to. He references so many people that are wise and helpful much like himself to remind others of subtle things that happens everyday. I love Marshall personality overall
As a professor I try to start positive pointing out what has been done well. Then I move on to the 'areas of opportunity' for the stuff that could improve. The wording helps keeping it positive... although sometimes I feel it is too cheesy.
Brillant as always Marshall and Stan. Lots of congratz for your new born Stan
It’s not! You sound cool!
Used to belong to a forum (now dead) where critique was king, everyone tried their best to help fellow artists. Yes, some people gave bad advice, but it was pointed out numerous times that learning to differentiate the good from the bad was also part of the learning curve. Trying to please everyone wasn't good and just taking the bits that would help you at the level you were at was priceless. I also loved doing critiques as it taught me so much about where I needed to improve and helped me to see mistakes in my own work.
I hated it when there would be a pile in on an artist. I remember one who posted a picture of a head where the girl's bangs went behind her eyeballs and was seriously being mocked for it; I took the picture, shortened the bangs and re-posted it. The face was fine in proportions and the artist was surprised at the difference it made and questioned whether she's actually drew it. I assured her she had and it shut the mockers up. It's important to also not to follow the crowd if you see something different than the rest. I still have the before and after on my computer to remind me what really helping feels like.
Marshall, can we go through your bookshelf some time. You got a lot of good stuff there.
YESSSS please please , bookshelf podcast
PLSPLSPLS
@@alfiemarshall9224 They've been in the same order for the last few podcasts.
@@nicholasjagger6557 what
Actually this is quite interesting topic as someone who hasn't received many critiques due to keeping my work mostly to myself.
Agreed, I learned that I don't learn unless I show what I'm drawing and get some feedback. My issue is exactly in finding good feedback, friends and family are often just praising everything and online communities are often enthusiastic but not necessarily aware of how to help. This video helped me understand how to give good objective feedback too 👍
@@d-emprahexpects there are reddit communities where you can get critiqued
I find critiquing artists online really hard because I don't know where a new artist is in their learning curve, in relation to my own learning curve.
I'm currently going through Drawabox so this episode is priceless for me 😁
This is absolutely one of your best conversations. So helpful.
I specialized in drawing anime and I'm in the FB group. I went to the forums seeking critique a few times, and while a number of them were helpful and constructive, there were a few who were not just there to trash my "style", but also tried to strawman and frame me as close-minded to criticism I guess in order for me to be disliked by the Proko community, even though I was very active in not only showing gratitude, but also posting updates on applying changes to the particular illustration I put out based on criticism. While I trust that the community , the helpful part of it at least, know better than to listen to these slanders directed to me, it does feel discouraging to participate more frequently. I think as important as giving good critiques is also developing a good environment for artists who are determined to learn and grow.
Oh i'm so hyped for Proko 2.0??!!! Sounds really amazing!!! 🤩🤩🤩
I just came to the realization that Marshall and Stan kinda look like Kratos and Atreus from God of War and had to comment on it, would make a good thumbnail ngl lol 🤣
Yes！
Boy!
That's an interesting idea
Draftsmen is life thanks 🙏 Stan
Hey we avoided the awkward intro this time - this intro was solid and cool!
I've watched most of the draftsmen episodes but I was putting this one off for a bit because I didn't really know what the episode would be about. I'm glad I started watching and can't wait for Proko 2.0 sounds awesome.
softer way to say that "stop drawing anime/manga" line is to say "if you learn your basic drawing skills, you will know how and which to simplify or which to exagerrate" i spend years tried to study only anime/manga drawings, i just can't improve myself, i can copy manga page/drawing close to perfect from gesture, contour, pen stroke, effects, etc, but when i tried to create something from the top of my head i struggle A LOT, i almost give up, untill 2 years ago i encounter proko, modern day james and other youtubers, and i try to do stuff on their lesson, i HATED doing it, that is one of the most miserable drawing experience in my life, i didn't draw anything i like and i stopped often for 1 week, 2 week, even months without drawing, but after those lessons i started to understand basic and improved my proportion, value, anatomy, perspective (the one i hate the most) and other important stuff, after 1 year of lesson (here and there) i started to understand basics, and now 1 year after that i am confident enough in my skill to start on my dream manga project, i am nowhere close to any of these masters i mentioned, but now i enjoyed it more and i find ways to express things in my heads to put it on paper/digital, i regret all the time i spend wandering and doubting my dream, because all i am lacking is to convey my thoughts into the paper, i wish i can go back and yell at myself, "learn the basic first !!"
because manga and anime are in many ways same as cartoon or any art, it used exagerration and manipulation on basic drawing element, and to have the ability to accomplish those thing you need to know how it works and how to manipulate it, in the past i always get butt hurt when anyone said that line to me, but now i'm the one who kinda use that to others. in softer way
Congratulations to Stan and family on the new baby !
Marshall's beard caught me off guard at the end
Great episode, something I do think that is worth mentioning with regards to triangulation though is that often times, even if it is over the internet, people who are doing critiques in communities might also be prominent figures in the industry/unreceptive to critiques of their critiques/have low self awareness and the risk of being honest is potentially not worth it due to damaging potential job prospects when the person isn't really able to engage in that sort of reflection/healthy communication in the first place. I've also found that when you're coming from a background/demographic that is starkly different from the one that makes up the majority of a community, there can be a lot of subtle passive aggressiveness and unhelpful "criticism" that will just push you out of the space if you try to bring to light. I overall agree that direct communication is important and that unnecessary triangulation is very damaging and creates dysfunctional environments, but I do think it's important to keep the nuances of the situation in mind.
It is always a lot of fun to listen to you guys!
Sometimes I clicked Draftsmen video just to check out how the intro will be presented.
Today I was asked to critique/help people in my class and this video seemed to arrive in my recommended just on time. I tried my best but I think I may have come off a little too cold. Thanks for the advice!
There was this one time where one of my teachers critiqued my work and I was reasoning their saying...as in, reasoning out why I had put that particular element and color, and questioning to what he was saying purely bcz I wanted to learn as to why I cannot do that way and why I should do that way... But things didn't turn out good. I got emotional and moved away cuz I didn't want to shed tears infront of the teacher, and he thought I moved because I didn't have any answers to him and said to my classmates that this is called giving up and the person questioning you wins.
(He said , " things have to be universal, and u need to think whether people will understand or not." Whereas I was in the mindset of remembering to learn that WE need to express ourselves, the most important is to express what an artist is feeling and a work can have different interpretations.)
I calmed myself down n went back to listen to what he was saying cuz I was a student and I was wanting to learn...and so I questioned him. But instead he got infuriated and scolded me when left the class . And now even though I said sorry for my behaving i feel like the things haven't been solved between the teacher and me.
And as u said if a student is thin skinned, the other students might not help him in correcting/critiquing him...i feel that's what's happening....and where else I want to learn and improve myself, i need people to specify certain things which I do not know I'm doing wrong.
Sorry didn't realise I wrote an essay🤦🏽♀️
Congrats, Stan. I hope everyone is well.
I'm always peepin Marshall's Leyendecker book
do you think you need to provide more positive critiques than negative critiques? like 4 positive aspects + 2 constructive aspects? also what if your personality is not that of a cheerleader? does that mean that you have to learn to be a cheerleader in order to be effective at providing critique? could you also give tips on how to be thicker skinned receiving critiques?
Just know that not everyone will like your work. It's sounds obvious but it's hard to see at first.
The way we handled crit in class began with the person describing the piece, and then we’d go back and forth with questions and advice. Is the composition reading in the way the artist intended? If no, point out how they could push something or let it fade out. Point out tangents or confusing parts. Always, always point out what is working and how to accentuate it.
You can tell that they were really intrigued in this episode
Stan has obviously thought at great length about this and the online world. Very clear and good quality advice.
Thank goodness! It snowed like hell and I just worked 12 hours lmao
lucky
Great podcast guys !!!
This is a really interesting topic.
Love the intro guys! Keep mixing it up. lol. :)
Constructive critique is always useful. The question is usually, is it constructive criticism, opinion, or other? Have you asked what the original intent is? Is it realism with form, or a more modern flat painting?
I'm having a hard time trying to get ANY critique of my artwork, to know how I can improve. Miss the old days of the internet u.u
Recently googled one of my favorite artist to see what he was up to, it had been a long time since I checked in. The term “Lowbrow” comes up, I had categorized him as a surrealist in my mind. Got me thinking 🤔 what exactly differentiates “highbrow” and “lowbrow” art, does an art critics critique mean more than a fellow artist’s critique?
Great episode. When you move to peer critique, you could have a feedback star rating for the critquer. Much the same way sellers get on eBay and people get on AirBnB. Rate me on this idea 😁. Love the show.
This is such a good episode! Thank you!
How do we gain access to Proko 2.0 is it a paid thing? Or did I miss the sign up opportunity.
great podcast keep it up
I watch all episodes from youtube. And that episode in particular was interrupted so many times with ads, that`s inst fun to watch. Can you guys remove the ads from the middle of the episode? Thanks for the show and the content.
If they don't change how the ads are placed, why not try and scroll to the adds and tigger all of them before actually watching the episode? That way you can have an uninterrupted viewing experience and they also can receive the ad revenue.
Usa o UA-cam Premium mano,é baratinho e tira os ads dos vídeos
If you don't have anything kind to say to someone who's being rude, Post a picture of an old man instead
23:46 Proko Fetus
48:15 marshall grows older
I preferred the second intro o.o
What do you do if IG keeps rejecting your art promotions?
stop trying to promote it. I skip right by promoted instagram posts and they come across as insincere and lame.
yea dont promote ur ig posts thats kinda annoying
My wife is my big critic. She doesn't know art, but she knows what looks good. So if something bugs her, I assume it will bug any other viewer. And if she points out something also bugging me, then I know it needs to be fixed.
hello, nice work, please make video about the social media community, the bad behaver and the problem of attaching the youtuber or tiktok artist, for being honest, not rude not rude but talking about what other artists don't talk about. specially the bad comment from people that reached your video by the explore , people far a way from art or simply not artists, thank you
You can give someone an objective subjective critique.
Ayeee
/r/redline could listen to this
people these days are really sensitive about critiques at the point where if I critique my own drawings in my own post they'll get offemded
That's really funny.
Marshall is not quite on the mark with his definition. The core of the world refers to critical thinking - analysis, reasoned thinking. The modern use of 'criticism' is a misuse or misapprehension of the word, as critical analysis is often seen as negative. This is no doubt because professional critics often fail the reasoned aspect of the job.
Hey, Stan, can you talk ANY SLOWER? Duh.
Hey, Marshall, can you not insist that Stan hold A COMPREHENSIVE SYMPOSIUM on emotional IQ IN THE MIDDLE OF A PODCAST? Duh.
Just some minor critiques, is all. Otherwise good stuff.
Stan's was better.
Bad critique issue: what to do when instructors look at the nude female figure, esp. drawn by a male, as immediately suspect; little else is questioned, and it is not a "wow, those proportions are off"; it is "why are you drawing a nude female? why no nude male works?" I mean, the addition of a work with a male nude will establish "equality" in my works? Is this the world now? Sounds like sexism to me, but for a male to claim sexism, well, that doesn't go over well. Sigh.
Drawing lots of males helps you figure out what makes a female body more feminine as opposed to masculine. So it can definitely help. Also, I don't think most people who are into figure drawing would critique you like that? A lot of these people don't even think about breasts or butts or anything like that. They look at a pose and they're all like, "Oh shoot. You can really see the calf muscle stretching over there, and her serratus is really obvious on the right side," lol. Anyway, the world is what the world is. Any energy spent on trying to "fight sexism against male artists who love drawing girls" is just energy you could have used to get better at drawing lol.
Get a better instructor.
I don't know about you, but for me art is whatever I want it to be. Why are you so upset with an instructor telling you something that's so obviously subjective? It's clear that he/she had an agenda and isn't worth listening to when you hear those words.
You can draw JUST females if you want. Why you would do so is none of their business, and if they can't give you a critique related to, you know, actual art, then you're wasting your time with them.
It is better to learn both male and female anatomy to learn the similarities and differences simultaneously, the muscles are all the same its just the hormones that change the proportions respective to the individual's body type.
nothing wrong with it, as long as you know that there is a chance all your figures will look femenine, even the males, because you have a bias and are used to draw nude female figures only. Nothing to do with an agenda.