USS Roper and the U-85
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- The first U-boat sunk by a US Naval vessel in the Second World War would seem to be a big deal. However, when USS Roper sank the U-85 in April 1942, the the event was kept secret by the military. The History Guy remembers a nearly forgotten milestone in the Battle of the Atlantic.
This is original content based on research by The History Guy. Images in the Public Domain are carefully selected and provide illustration. As images of actual events are sometimes not available, images of similar objects and events are used for illustration.
All events are portrayed in historical context and for educational purposes. No images or content are primarily intended to shock and disgust. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Non censuram.
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Script by THG
#ushistory #thehistoryguy #WWII
Thanks for telling this story of bravery and heroism in a small battle that has been mostly forgotten!
I saw a story about a sub sinking in the Gulf Coast in 1942. A destroyer was escorting a supply ship and attacked a sub after the ship was hit by a torpedo. The captain wasn't sure if he hit the sub with the depth charges and faced criticism after he filed his after action report. The review board decided to relieve him of his command and send him back for more training.
Sixty years later the ocean floor was being mapped and the wreck of the supply ship and sub were found. A photographic survey showed the bow of the sub completely destroyed. An explanation was that a depth charge landed on the deck and followed the sub in its descent until it exploded.
The records were corrected and the captain was posthumously awarded a medal which was presented to a family member.
I saw a documentary on that incident. Was glad to see he got vindicated.
657449: I remember reading that as well.
The fogs of war hide much may the future clear the air so truth can be taught.. I'd say that's a quote from someone famous but no just a vet and history fanatic that's been my saying for decades I am that vet
This is a very good example of war being wrapped around bad politics.
You heard the story of U-166 - wreck found in 2001 proved that PC- 566 had actually landed a depth charge on the forward deck just above the torpedo room and when the sub descended to it fuse depth it exploded and set off the torpedo warheads.
If every history teacher could deliver these stories with similar gravitas and interest, history might not be doomed to repeat itself. Many thanks for the channel, the hard work, and the education. Very well done.
??? History doesn't repeat itself. Care to give an example?
wkdravenna our war on terror is basically a second vietnam war. Its actually quite similar. A long drawn out war against an insurgent group.
@@simonkimberly6956 very Islamaphobic. How can you compare a German ideology being adopted by Southeast asians trying to fight off colonial French to a cult who have been engaged in jihad for 1,400 years ?
wkdravenna thats nat islamaphobic at all. I was comparing the fight strategies between insurgents. We are trying to fight a guerrilla war on the frontlines, just like vietnam. Dude, chill the fuck out, its not like i used a slur im talking about two different wars. You dunce.
I agree.
My grandpa was on this boat. This is amazing to see on youtube. This story is near exact of what my grandpa told me. He said the germans were partying in the middle of the night and thats how they were able to get them. He said they could see them dancing in their underwear. He also mentioned one of their guns seized up at first. He recalled hearing them in the water afterwards and later after recovering the bodies seeing them laying out on the deck foaming at the mouth. That image troubled him for life. I never knew they waited 7 hrs to rescue them. My grandpa was only 15 when he served. His mother somehow used his brothers birth certificate to enlist him early. He even saw one of his good buddies get washed off the boat prior to this event. They didnt try to to recover him because they said the water was so cold he would of been gone already. After all that and serving 5 years he never wanted anything to do with the military again and not even for his funeral.
U85 is great wreck dive but at 110 feet you have very little bottom time. The nice thing is that the depth makes it a dive location that gets a lot less visitors than other sites. Experienced divers are also a lot more likely to leave "souvenirs" in place rather than take them. The Graveyard of the Atlantic hosts a lot of shipwrecks as well as a lot of "history, that deserves to be remembered". Maybe you will find another wreck to tell us about The History Guy.
1960 - Northern CA - had a 7th grade history teacher that taught just as The History Guy presents. Learned more in that class than all others combined including college. RIP Wm. Dougherty.
Same here.....amazing how we remember teachers, men and women, who had a positive influence on our lives. RIP David Rogers.
10th grade US history, we barely used the textbook, but I probably learned more every day usable info in Rick Darcangelo's (I believe he's still on the topside of the sod) class than any other in high school.
9th grade, we spent ⅔ the year on the civil war, it was supposed to be the founding to 1910, but the teacher was a civil war enthusiast.
I spent 3 years in Algebra I cause I just couldn’t understand it. Until finally got a good teacher. Can’t remember his name but I remember sitting in his class after school with him trying to help. All the while he was smoking unfiltered Camel cigarettes, in the classroom!
Thanks for the Heinlein shout-out! "Lt. Robert A. Heinlein, USN, served as gunnery officer aboard the destroyer USS Roper in 1933 and 1934."
Thank you for this. My Father served on the Roper during this engagement and on through to the end of the war. Really nice to see a small part of our family history remembered here on your page; which is one of the best here on UA-cam.
Hi John! Thanks for sharing this. I've put our summary in the comments, for the most part, because so many people seem interested, and now I'm just cruising the comments seeing where I might be able to add info - but pretty much dodging the picking-up-survivors debate.
My grandfather also served on the roper. This story matches what he told me long ago. That kamikaze strike almost killed him. He woke up in the dead pile on deck, gave him nightmares till the day he died. He never had any unkind words about the germans, but boy did he have a bone to pick with the Japanese.
@@jimsouder426 What was your grandfather's name? I have some photos - not many - of Dad with some shipmates and I am always hopeful of finding the families of the other men in them so I can share them. Do you know when your granddad first started on the Roper? (I'm John's sister, by the way. I've put a few posts on the thread). Our father was Norwood Horne. He was mostly a radioman. We taped Dad talking about the kamikaze attack. If you are interested (I know it's a painful memory), I'll post it for you. [Hi again John - hijacking one of your replies I'm afraid!]
@@bettyhorne3714 I've replied several times but my comments keep getting deleted. Sorry.
@@jimsouder426 I got that reply. (I'm a novice at UA-cam posting and I'm finding it interesting).
History Guy - your history videos are wonderful! I’ve always been a history buff - especially WWII history. My father was an F4F pilot in the Pacific Theater during WWII, and he fought in the Battle of Midway.
I cannot understand why ANYONE would ever dislike any of your awesome history videos. I suppose it’s just trolls who somehow get their twisted kicks by disliking everything they see, in a pathetic attempt to mess up publishers’ rankings. 🤦🏻♂️
Keep the videos coming, HG!!!
Ken -- your father's role in history is fascinating and laudable. Which carrier did he operate from at Midway, and have you read John Lundstrom's "The First Team"?
Thank you for this video. My father served on the USS Roper in WWll. The ship received 4 battle stars. It was hit by a Kamakazi in the Pacific. The anchor of the USS Roper is on display at MIT.
I've walked by the anchor of the Rhoper at MIT, at least five thousands times. Now I know the rest of the story. Thank you so much.
I love history but always despised history classes because they were boring. In college I had a fantastic history teacher and realized it was possible to teach history in a way that could capture the student’s attention. You would make an excellent history teacher/professor. I have really enjoyed your videos. Thank you for “teaching” me.
Fascinating note about the Enigma machine being in Hatteras. As a software engineer, I've read multiple books on the decoding of Enigma traffic during WWII, but I've never seen an Enigma machine in person. This is now a Must Stop destination during my next trip near the NC coast!
Thanks again for all you do to make these videos.
Actually, there are several Enigma machines on display in the US: Computer History Museum in Mount View, CA, NSA's National Cryptologic Museum at Fort Meade, Maryland, Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, IL, The USAF Academy (Computer Science Dept.) in Colorado Springs, the National WW2 Museum in New Orlean, LA, and the International Museum of WW2 near Boston MA has no less than 7 enigmas (1 damaged from being blown up by the German to prevent capture). BTW: there were more than one model of the Enigma and the German Navy used a different one from the other German military.
@@badweetabix The big difference between the Wehrmacht Enigma & the Kriegsmarine Enigma is that the Kriegsmarine Enigma had a total of five rotating drums while the Wehrmacht Enigma had three. Both Enigma machines had only room for three drums to be installed at the same time, and were of the same design...
The Powerhouse Museum in Sydney, Australia has one - I was very fortunate a few years ago to be able to take a close look at it.
@@badweetabix Is the Science & Industry Enigma beside the submarine that it came from? (U-505 captured on the high seas by Dan Gallery, who wrote a number of books, most comedies about the US Navy, a few on WW2 ASW (including 1 on the capture of 505. If you want a book to chill your bones a bit read: THE BRINK by him! Part of it is misleading since at the time he couldn't accurately describe US Submarines.... but it is indicative of how many times we came very close to WW3!)
@@davidhollenshead4892 I believe that after a while Donitz had the U-Boat's Enigma change to have 4 working rotors/drums. I don't know if that was passed onto the entire Kriegsmarine or not......
My father survived a torpedoing in the Mediterranean during WW2. Another RN ship was in the vicinity but did not stay to pick up survivors. There was never a complaint about this from him because he knew that ships were always more valuable than men. He was finally picked up during the next day. Regards
Peter Gregory so was my grandpa, who was a conscript in the Wehrmacht. A ship he was on during the retreat from Norway was torpedoed. Another came to rescue. They spanned a cable between the two vessels. Grandpa managed to cross. Many were too weak to hold on, and perished in the icy waters. He was the kindest and at the same time most hardened man I ever knew.
@@HeadPack War is a terrible thing.
They tried to paint Admiral Doenitz as a war criminal for eventually advising U boat crews not to attempt to rescue survivors for fear of being spotted, bombed, and sunk.
My grandfather made certain to enlist in the US Army since he couldn't swim, and disliked the idea of being trapped on board. Instead he was a Frontline Field Surgeon and the only physician of the original eight to survive the war, as his unit was: shelled by the British Army, froze in tents in the winter, and one physician even put a 1911 in his mouth just after liberating a Concentration Camp.
Looking back it is amazing that so many of our relatives survived the war against Fascism...
@@davidhollenshead4892
They were killed by friendly fire?
Hamilton W. Howe was my grandfather. When asked, he would never want to talk about any of the events around this with us his family. Thank you for this youtube video and insight into his life during WWII - many things I never knew. Cheers,
I love these snippets of history. My favorite UA-cam pastime is listening to the History Guy.
Fascinating tale! Another fantastic video! Thanks a lot! And happy New Year! I especially enjoy your wartime tales from the Sea! I look forward to many more super-interesting "snippet for forgotten history" in 2020. Like you, I love history, and I admire your ability to tell a great story in a gripping and exciting way, while educating your audience. All within a limited timespan. You are the kind of educator. Keep it up please! Kind regards from (probably) your most avid and biggest Danish fan! :)
Heh! Heinlein is my favorite author. He is the one that inspired my writing. I know that's a small foot-note to this great ship, but sometimes the smallest connections are the strongest.
Invaleded out for tuberculosis. To earn money he submitted a short story to a magazine in hopes of winning the $50 prize. He went on to become one of the few Grandmasters of Science Fiction.
And now we know the origin of The Worlds Laziest Man.
One of my favorite authors as well (him and Clarke) and even after 64 years I still listen to his books.
One of my favorites too.
The catch is Heinlein was a bit less than pleasant to be around, and always was fanatical about his politics regardless of when he was left or right wing...
Hey The History Guy... the USS Slater is a destroyer escort (DE 766) that is now a museum ship in Albany NY. The only battle that the Slater has decisively won is the battle of attrition. She did convoy duty in the North Atlantic in WWII and then served in the Pacific theater at the very end of the war. In the early 1950s she was transferred to the Hellenic Navy where she was on patrol until the early 1990s. The Destroyers Escort Sailors Association had her towed back to the USA by a Russian seagoing tug. First she was berthed at the USS Intrepid Museum in Manhattan, now she’s berthed on the Hudson in Albany as a museum ship. The restoration is exceptional. Her 40mm Bofors are as smooth as a finely tuned Swedish watch. She is the very last DE afloat in the US. Her history deserves to be remembered.
Note: my father served on the Slater in 1945 and 1946. He came through the Panama Canal on their way to Jacksonville FL where she was decommissioned. He was on the museum’s board of Directors when he was in his 80’s. My dad turned 93 last week and he is one of the last WWII crew members standing.
I have enjoyed every video you have ever produced but this has risen to the top (no pun intended) as my favorite. As a relatively new diver in 2001, I dove on the U-85 in horrible visibility. I touched the hull but couldn’t see much. The next day I visited the museum (and the aquarium) and saw the Enigma Machine. This is your first story I have literally touched and seen. Thanks for the quality, accuracy, education and of course for all your hard work making these happen.
I grew up on the Outer Banks and it makes me so glad to hear it mentioned. So much forgotten history there. Happy New Year to you and Mrs. History Guy!
I would bet that the Graveyard of the Atlantic museum is an interesting one to visit. I'll have to get there some day. Thanks for all of your interesting videos Lance and Heidi.
With a name like that, it'd better be... :P
I have been there many times. It is small but very interesting displays. I have seen that enigma device.
I'll link a photo album when I go by.
Steve Dietrich Check our the aquarium and the Wright Brothers site while you’re there in the area too.
Note that locals pronounced Bodie Island as "Body Island." The name is said to have come from all the drowned sailors who washed ashore there.
The story of HMS Bedfordshire is another piece of history that deserves to be remembered.
As a Canadian, I must congratulate you for your enthusiasm, love of history and general presentation. In this day and age, I am proud to see that there are Americans like yourself!
Fear of U-Boat attacks while attempting rescues was widespread during both world wars. The first losses for the British Royal Navy involved two cruisers being sunk by torpedoes from a German U-Boat while stopping to pick up survivors from the first cruiser to be hit.
That sets the tone. Why risk your life to help those who's comrades were quite happy to use survivors as bait when those survivors are on the same side as the U-Boat crew. As for attacking a possible U-Boat while survivors are near the attack point, what else can you do. If you do not make sure it is no longer a threat then you run the risk of it escaping and killing others. In which case those deaths are on you because you failed to stop the enemy.
Eventhough I'm not that good in history in school, I love this channel!
I can see why Howe's decision not to rescue survivors is controversial, but when analysing events such as this we must always try to avoid being "hindsight generals" and judge on the information Howe had at the time.
When looked at from that perspective he did make the correct decision to safeguard his ship and crew. Sure, in hindsight he *could* have rescued the survivors but as you point out, U-boats operated in groups and pairs and the US had been suffering huge losses.
Excellent as always History Guy.
He was the man on the ground, smart, careful. His ship and crew lived another day. The Germans attacked unarmed non combatants. It's a risky business.
Lance! Thanks for sharing your talent to present history in general. Your presentations are wonderfully researched and presented with such passionate professionalism. The irony for me is that the U-85 is what started my fascination with history. As a very young boy, a friend of my father visited from Germany ( I wish I could remember his name). He had been a U Boat Commander during the war. He was a personal friend of Herbert Werner, and gave me a copy of "Iron Coffins". His own stories where incredible! I became SCUBA certified in 1980. I started diving the U-85 in 1982 as a young teen. To be on the wreck brought everything full circle. Your wonderful presentation is very much an amazing 'icing on the cake'! Again, much thanks!
When I watch your videos I'm always amused when you say "hit that 'thumbs up button' ", because I do that before the video is launched 😁 I'm always impressed with the content, research, enthusiasm, and the neutral approach to the sometimes polarizing nature of some of the subjects. Keep up the good work, sir, and thank you for what you do.
Great episode. Finally got a notification of a new video in many months. I check your channel manually now, since YT notifications are unreliable.
I'd like to express my appreciation for the little bits you add in to the story, such as U-85's enigma code machine at the end of the video. They never fail in bringing these histories closer to life.
Great piece. The U85 is still one of the best dives I have done. Nice to hear the story behind it. Thank you.
Happy to know of the honourable burials these Men were afforded irrespective of being enemies.
That was a tough call by the captain regarding rescuing survivors. I imagine it would have been an agonizing decision, knowing that he may well be putting his ship and crew in danger. I know that their cries for help would have rung in my ears for a very long time afterwards.
And even worse when the same decision had to be made during the Guadalcanal campaign - and they were our own sailors in the water. A destroyer with a malfunctioning sonar system was escorting three cruisers that had been really badly beat up during a close range gun-battle with Japanese cruisers. One of the cruisers was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine - and the decision was made that they couldn't risk the only ship capable of escorting those cruisers and the survivors were left behind.
@@colincampbell767 I have never read about that one.....truly horrific for the guys in the water. War IS hell!
They did ring in their ears. My father was on the Roper and he recalled them calling out "Comrade, Comrade, save me." The other couple of accounts I have read mention that as well. However there is a counterbalance no one mentions. The men on the ship had spent a lot of time searching for survivors after U-boat attacks. The rescue of the lifeboat-baby and his mother after the sinking of the City of New York had been a scant 2 weeks before. I suspect that might have had a little bearing when the captain weighed the risk to his men and decided against picking up the German crew.
As a submariner, I'm enjoying your submarine stories even when we don't always come out the victor. Some other little-known submarine stories you can cover include:
1. The U-47's attack on HMS Royal Oak was a very daring and thought impossible penetration of the British Home Fleet at Scapa Flow that convinced Hitler of the potential of the u-boat.
2. PRS Hangor's attack on INS Kukhri is one of only 2 submarine attacks that sank a warship in wartime since WW2.
3. U-boat captain Fritz-Julius Lemp seemed to have a very unlucky life as a captain. He accidentally sinks the SS Athena on the first day of the war and later loses the enigma code books and device to the Allies along with his life aboard U-110.
4. SM U-9 sank 3 British warships in 90 minutes, thus proving the submarine's viability as a weapon of war. A submarine flotilla in WW2 was named after the submarine's captain, Otto Weddigen.
5. USS Nautilus' contribution to the victory at the Battle of Midway cannot be understated. It was the Japanese destroyer Arashi, which had depth charged Nautilus, that led C. Wade McCluskey to the Japanese carrier fleet. Nautilus would also take part in the little-known Makin Raid.
6. George H.W. Bush was shot down near the island of Chichi Jima and rescued by the submarine USS Finback.
Brent Granger are you aware that HMS Conqueror used a WW2 era torpedo to sink the General Belgrano, an WW2 USN cruiser whose name escapes me at the moment?
@@neildahlgaard-sigsworth3819 I can't say I've read that, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's true. My submarine carried some old Mk. 48 torpedoes along with the more advanced Mk. 48 ADCAP. The USS Forrestal fire was caused by a dangerous bomb that was left over from WW2 arsenals.
For your information, ARA General Belgrano was previously the USS Phoenix, a survivor of Pearl Harbor.
Operation Drum roll (German name for the attacks) had sunk many ships right off of our shores while we were too stupid too even do coastal blackouts in areas attacked during the first six months of 1942.
The U-boat skippers were quite amazed and they later said. "How could we be so dumb"?
As our ships traveled the coast the U-boats watched the blinking out of the shore lighting and it made it so easy many were not even torpedoed but tankers were lit up and sunk by the U-boat deck gun, "Cheaper than torpedoes", they rejoiced.
In what the German submariners called "the happy times" over 300 vessels were sunk in sight of the coast as locals watched and later told to shut up about what they saw.
I was told that back in the 1960's by old timers that lived in the outer banks of North Carolina during those days.
Roosevelt called Admiral King on the carpet at last and told him to let the English help us out.
They sent crews to train our USN personal in anti-submarine techniques.
On Okracoke island , N.C. ,they dredged out a harbor for minesweepers that were used in antisub warfare.
We finally turned it around using those British tactics but in the process some of the Royal Navy were killed by a U-boat and five of them are still interred on Okracoke Island in North Carolina.
I visited their five gravesites and thanked them last time i was on Okracoke Island.
To me , they represent some of England's finest sailors because they died fighting off of the US coast helping protect US shipping and they still reside here on US soil.
The real heroes of war are the ones that never make it , the dead ones.
Ask any so called" live one" and they always will set ya straight on that if they are worth their salt!
Well said, Ray. We fought as one identity, we fought as the Allies. We fought for each other, and our "heros" died for all nation's and flags under that Allied banner. To bad today that doesn't seem to be very well understood.
@@ronfullerton3162 My Dad used to say that. He was Coxswain of a 115' LCT at Leyte Gulf and Okinawa so he knew the real deal.
@@raystory7059 They knew what it was all about. All the naysayers today haven't even been close to anything like these men saw. I will go with the eye witness. Plus I knew and loved those of the greatest generation. They didn't bs.
Roper used to be a brand of kitchen ranges built in Rockford, Illinois. I don't know what this has to do with this video but I throw it out there free of charge.😁
😁💣
I paused to look up Heinlein since I feel like a stranger in a strange land..
I can grok. Don't worry there's Time Enough for Love. Gotta go now and travel down the Glory Road, to visit Farnham in his freehold.
The end of the sentence gave me red dead 2 vibes and im scared.
The moon is a harsh mistress. It seems we now know the origin of The Worlds Laziest Man.
@@ryandavis7593 My favorite Heinlein book. I pick it up every few years a reread it. Heinlein contracted TB and had to leave the Navy in 1934.
jeff robinson. Heinlein wrote Star Ship Troopers with was made into two terrible movies. If you want a great book to read that is nothing like the movies, read this book. You see a lot of Heinlein’s own philosophy in it, which by the way i believe is amazing.
I was a Destroyer Sailor, my sons are Submarine Sailors. I love what you do, please keep it up.
Previously unknown stories like this one, are always catching my attention and appreciation !!!! Thank you so much !!!!
You are just pumping out the content! And it's good quality content too. Thanks very much of your work.
I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I really hope that you get a chance, eventually, to do a video on the 1935-36 sports season in Detroit. I think it's an interest moment in sport history and would make a great video.
Truly a man of many hats. Happy New Year history guy, the rest of the learning adults as well.
Keep it up.
My father Rudolph C. was a sailor on board the Roper at the time of this battle. His war album has a few pictures of the aftermath of the event. He served on board the Roper in all theaters and was slightly injured during the kamikaze attack at Okinawa. During repairs after the attack, and while at safe anchorage, my father was part of a skeleton crew selected to board the Roper's crippled sister ship, USS Barry (DD-248/APD-29) to remove equipment and then tow to scuttling. While under tow, the Barry was struck and sunk by more kamikazes along with her escort. Dad was thrown into the water and picked up later by a passing ship, only to land on Okinawa with the Marines to fight. It must have been pure hell as he never spoke much of the war, and especially of the time after the Barry was sunk. We only found out about that part of the story after he passed from his brother. God Bless you dad, and your mates of the Greatest Generation.
Such consistently-grounded and excellently-delivered chunks of our history delivered, time and time again.
As a proud U.S. NAVY veteran I salute the brave crew of both ships.
They carried out their duties in the face of danger and in the tradition of the Navies of their Countries ✌🏻🇺🇸
I just wish that we had the decency to dump a lifeboat for the freezing U-boat crew, as that wouldn't have risked the ship...
@@davidhollenshead4892 The Roper's captain made the correct decision not to stop. As stated earlier in the story the Roper had been in combat with multiple U-Boats operating in groups "Wolf Packs" and stopping the ship to lower lifeboats was too risky. Besides U-Boats never "had the decency" to concern themselves with the survivors of all the merchant and passenger ships they sank.
The littlest ships have the most moxie.Well done, USS Roper.
Amazing that you find these great true stories and excite us about their relevance - Thank you
Another well-told tale that would otherwise be lost. Many thanks.
when i was younger, old folks used to tell how they'd go out on the oceanfront and watch the ships get blown up and sunk at night. and really, a tourist attraction at Va Beach. it was insane how incompetent the navy was for so long.
Wow, never thought of it that way. But ppl used to watch nuclear tests as entertainment as well, so it shouldn't bee surprising I guess.
em1o smurf, don't just blame the navy. the locals thought they were assisting their boys by shining car headlights out to sea. this provided a great silhouette for submarines to spot targets on moonless nights. i understand the authorities had trouble discouraging the locals from "helping" their boys.
The US navy was very determined not to take advice on using convoys, the same as many US admirals were resistant to using or believing radar.
@@SvenTviking yes. we had a saying: "the navy, 200 years of tradition uninterrupted by progress." The Right way, the Wrong way, and the Navy way.
Sir, might you consider doing a segment on the single, most expensive weapon lost in the Vietnam War. That weapon was the U.S.S Warrington, which was nearly sank and more importantly was damaged beyond repair by two AMERICAN mines. "History [that] deserves to be remembered" and will not be forgotten by this sailor who was stationed on that ship, at that time. Thank you.
Hope you're sleeping well these days. Best wishes for the new year.
I very much enjoyed your video. I am also a diver that has visited the U85 several times. You did a great job presenting the story of the U85 sinking.
Great story!!! Thank you.
I love your passion for history, and your even-handed telling of these often emotive tales.
How about an episode on ‘Operation Mincemeat’. Possibly the most daring and successful piece of misinformation espionage in modern war. It has been credited with shortening the war by months, and reducing losses by tens of thousands of lives (on both sides)
The airship in this story likely came from the hangar in Elizabeth City where I now work. It was completed in 1941.
Weeksville!
My grandfather served aboard a U.S. Merchantman! I appreciate every single serviceman aboard these escort ships that allowed him to complete his job safely.
As always, this is a terrific account of a battle at sea that very few people knew about. It was just another number in a couple of ledgers. BZ, Roper. Well done.
I dived on the U-85 some 25 years ago, and even then it was sad how much damage the wreckers had done going after souvenirs. One correction: “Bodie Island” is pronounced like “body.”
My father was on the Roper from December 1941 to the end of the war. This was a pretty good summary. You missed the bit with the 3" guns jamming. My father was on one of them. Also, although I believe all the crew were haunted by the Germans in the water calling out "Comrade, Comrade, save me!", their attitude was probably hardened by searching for survivors of U-boat strikes. They had just picked up 71 from the City of New York (including the lady who gave birth in the life boat) on March 30th. [continuing in the replies]
My dad's "journal" for the lead-up isn't very descriptive:
April 1 In Norfolk and out again on patrol
8 Back in Norfolk for more depth charges (ash cans)
12 Out on patrole again
13 Stood out of Norfolk grouping for sub targets
14 1:30 Caught German sub on the surface off coast of North Carolina. Sunk same. 7:00 in
morning picked up 29 German corpses - sunk with 3 in. gun. Left some (corpses) in
water.
He talked a little about it, but there is a dramatic account by Hiram Hickam called "The Night of the Roper". I think it might have been a newspaper article, but it's a long one. My Dad's recollections I will add here - not sure how much space is allowed but I guess I will test it. He died in 2016. We asked him about the experience in his last months. I had the impression that this was nothing the crew was well prepared for and that there were a lot of errors and confusion:
We were on a patrol. Just the Roper, no other ship. And, Well, at that particular time, our duty was convoy duty up and down the coast, down south and over to, and uh, OK, I’ll back up. Pan America Clipper airplane flying to the United States from Europe spotted 4 or 5 submarines headed for that area - German submarines. And sent the message to Norfolk and Norfolk scattered the ships to go out and look for the submarines, just destroyers looking for submarines. And we were on patrol and it was right close to New Bern, NC. And we were on a patrol, and somebody spotted a wake up ahead, and they said, “Well, that fella,
that’s a fishing boat returning to New Bern.” But they sounded general quarters and everyone headed for their guns. And they were following that wake then all of a sudden a torpedo passed by on the left side and they were “Well, that’s not a fishing boat!” By then we were at general quarters and I was on my gun. I was on gun 3. The guy on top of the bridge with a big spotlight, he turned on that light, and just like that there was a submarine, the U-85. So, you kind of have to have a picture of the ship - Gun 1, Gun 3, Gun 5, Gun 2, Gun 4 and I’m on Gun 3. And here we are, we’re headed like this, and there’s the submarine right there...
- So right away they said, “Fire at will”. And by then I’d gotten to the gun. There’s a gun crew. There’s a
pointer, a trainer, a gun captain who’s up on a platform on the side of the gun, and 4 loaders. And I was the number 1 loader because I was over 6 feet. (Inaudible) picked out because the gun goes like this, you’re up and down here. But this particular time I was the only one person there. So I went to the ready box, took the shell out, (inaudible) across it and loaded the gun. And the gun captain says, “Fire!” And I hear “click”. Nothing happened. So the gun captain throws a lever on (the bore?) and opens the breach and the shell comes popping back and I catch it and I go throw it over the side, and I go to the ready box and I get another shell and I ram it home, and “click” nothing happens. So they throw it open again and I catch that and I throw it over the side. Well I was so excited or over-involved, I didn’t realize that what had happened. So I go to the ready box and I get another shell, and I was starting to ram it in and it won’t go. And the gun captain [says]
“wait a minute. Back out!” And he run his hand up into the barrel and the projectile had come out of the case of the previous one and I just threw the case over the side. He reached up in there and saw the projectile in there and me [beating a new one in]. "Get the Hell away from this gun". Well By that time the submarine, by that time we’d come around like this, and Gun 1 misfired, came around further . Gun 2 - I don’t think they even got the gun crew going, but anyway nothing happened. But when they came around like this, gun 5 was all set, and they fired 3 shells, they got 2 hits and sank the submarine. In the meantime, 30-35 Germans had come up and we were, also we had a machine gun sweeping it and they all jumped [over] the side, jumped in the water. Of course, the submarine sank and they were in the water hollering, “Comrade, save me! Comrade, save me!”
The Germans were in the water hollering “Comrade, save me!” and we killed them with depth charges. And
then we picked up the bodies. I think we had a string of bodies. I don’t know how many. Probably 30-35 bodies. And we were taking them into Norfolk. A tugboat met us before we got in and the tug boat took the German bodies and took ‘em I guess it took them into Norfolk and then I heard later that they transferred them down to one of the islands off the Outer Banks and they created a German graveyard and they were buried in a German
graveyard on one of the islands off the Outer Banks.
[Here we asked Dad if they had retrieved code books or anything else of importance from the bodies they picked up]
Well, they took all, they stripped them and took all the stuff to Washington and then it was examined and then they sent it back to the Roper for souvenirs. [end]
There is an interesting article in the July 1, 1984 issue of "Shark Hunter" that has a lot of detail and discusses the spy story.
About the controversy surrounding the sinking - there is an excellent article by Bill Geroux published in the Feb 13, 2005 edition of the Richmond Times-Dispatch.
There is another possible resource that I have never seen, although I would like to - From the Fifth Naval District Office of Naval Intelligence - "Sinking of German Submarine U-85, Report on the Disposition of bodies and Effects."
The Roper didn't have long after the sinking before they went out again. This was the rest of their month:
20 Out of Norfolk on patrol again.
24 12:00 picked up 30 survivors off English ship Desert Life after 7 days in open life boat, 4
were Americans in bunch. Same day clipper sighted 9 subs headed for channel
25 Turned survivors over to Coast Guard, out of Morehead City, NC
25 Into Norfolk
27 Out on patrol again, with 2/3 of our crew. Ship leaves with one third of crew on the
beach on liberty/out on liberty - ship left me - stayed at receiving ship
29 Picked up 30 survivors from Panamanian Merchant Ship that was torpedoed and sunk on April 16, east off Cape Hatteras-Morehead City, NC
---
As for the comment expressing respect for the lifeboat baby's mother, the best article about that which I have seen was written by Harry Nash but I don't have a note of what paper it was in, or when. It was pretty old. She and her son came to a Roper reunion 47 years later. I am quoting directly from the article about the lifeboat birth in my next (and last) reply. It's really worth reading.
The quality of these historical presentations is exceptional.
Great Story!!! I've dove the U85 twice, it's in remarkable condition and the hull still shows the wounds of the battle!! Thank you!!!
Would love to see you do a video on the role and actions of the Royal Canadian Navy in the battle of the Atlantic. We played a huge role and it's nearly forgotten outside Halifax, Nova Scotia.
I second that.
As a retired US Navy Submariner I enjoyed it
Thank you for your service.
Joel Coots: Boat sailor here too. 1964 to 1970.
One of your best. As a fan of John Chatterton and Robert Kurson, this really hits home. Thank you.
Thanks again for another beautifully-delivered story of the tragic realities of war. Please keep up your work. You are doing a great honor to those whose stories you tell!
I was just going to say "they didn't call them wolfpacks just for fun!" There could have been several U boats nearby!
Is was reading john glens memoir and he told a story of how he was training in the marine corps. He had heard rumors that the marine corps were using P-38s so he got him self transferred to dual engine training on a PBY near the Gulf of Mexico. When a U-boat was spotted in the area the training crews would go hunt the U-boats and drop depth charges. They didnt sink any vessels but they were the only cadets to take part in combat as cadets. Would make for an interesting video!
Andrew Ongais first American in space
Andrew Ongais orbit*
Andrew Ongais I WAS correcting a grammatical error. Make up your damn mind.
I'm a native of North Carolina and I've never heard this story about u boats and torpedo alley off the North Carolina coast. Thanks History Guy.
My grandfather was on the Roper at Pearl Harbor, he was a gunner. I was told he was badly burned but stayed at his post even though his fellow gunners were killed. He came back the the states and killed himself slowly with alcohol when my mother was at a young age. From stories I heard about many fallen solders from that time, there was no PTSD treatment back then because the term didn't exist.
Through my occasional research a few years back I found out this fascinating story became de-classified. I'm trying to find out if he was on the ship during the sinking of the U-85. As well as discovering what research outlets were used to get the information presented in your video. Specifically travel logs, picture resources etc.
I wanted to take my mother and aunt to the locations I can dig up where the ship was stationed, and the exact location in pearl harbor where the boat was hit by a kamikaze. Sort of like a multi destination road trip starting with the anchor at MIT.
The family said he never talked about the war and what he did. He was drafted, some believe because of he was fluent in Pennsylvania Dutch (Germanic descent language) he would be helpful as a spy... I have had personal accounts and conversations with retired Naval gentlemen that we under the belief that MANY PA dutch were drafted in sort of a Inglorious Bastards way to help defeat the Nazis.
We had been handed down some "relics" ("souvenirs" as he called them) from across Europe; an Italian watch, a French Mannlicher bayonet, Nazi Iron cross, and 2 Nazi books. Having this stuff and no answers as to their origins leaves the imagination to sail the open seas so to speak. Ever since I was little a part of me wanted to think there was more to his time in the military then he let on, and the fact the U-85 story just became declassified I wonder what else there is to know...
I remember back in the 1980's when I was a student, I came across a story about a forgotten corner of the war of 1812.
The Pacific Northwest at the time was called the 'Unclaimed Territory' and included Washington state, Oregon, Idaho, and pieces of California, Nevada, Wyoming and Montana.
The story is about how this large chunk of the United States was sold to the British for $50,000 and how they got it back without firing a shot or even giving the money back. If ever there was history worth remembering...
This story is from memory and may contain errors but if anyone can bring this story to life, it's you guys.
6:00 in and it sounds like it has a lot of the elements of the movie The Enemy Below.
The book was fiction but author Denys Rayner based it on several accounts of ship vs sub duels in WWII. PS. It was the base for not only the movie of the same name but of an excellent Star Trek:TOS episode "Balance of Terror."
This is a very well thought out and nicely researched piece of history. Well done!!!!
Thank you for history that includes a sense of the mood and circumstances of the times in which events occurred.
Topic ideas, 1939 New York World's Fair and the inventions introduced there that changed the world.
Minong Maniac I have an original catalogue from that fair. I even have a 1930's book by Bel Geddes, who designed some amazing pieces for it. This event would warrant a whole series of episodes. Little did the people know what was about to begin, as they were offered exciting glimpses into the future.
🤔🤔 Yeah, the 1939 World's Fair! That was the first time that the world was introduced to myspace, compuserve, floppy discs, Starbucks coffee, Samuel Adams beer and Cisco brand lowlife wine. The Rolling Stones released their 7th album there, and 1/3 of the main cast of kids who would later star in Beverly Hills 90210 were just reaching puberty right about then!😁
The Simpsons were just being seen for the 1st time as a bit cartoon in the 2nd season of the Tracy Ullman show on the new Fox network. The New York Times was celebrating at least a decade of supporting the world's most evil dictator, by covering up for Stalin's Ukrainian Holodomor holocaust, while praising the Soviet communist system. Now they are supporting/covering up for American communists(nothings changed there at the NYT obviously). 😖😏
@Herman Greenfield
It was a joke moron. Take a valium and calm the f**k down already. 😔
@@HighlanderNorth1 You forgot to mention that it was also the test run for Woodstock.
@Herman Greenfield
Have you ever heard of a little thing called "humor", or "sarcasm"? You should research those terms, they are fun for the entire family! They DO say that idiots tend to "think" they are more intelligent than other people, and there's great irony in the fact that many of them like to insult others, without possessing the self awareness to see that irony! 🤟😉👍
Hallo again Mr History Guy, may I repeat an old request please, that you do a piece on "The Greatest Raid"?
The raid on the dry dock at St Nazaire by British commandos. It is truly forgotten history.
I especially enjoy your WW2 stuff. Most educational
Jeremy clarkson has done a piece on the nazaire raid called "the greatest raid of all time" its on youtube. No offense history guy, love your work (surprising top 5 tanks BTW) and looking forward too more blighty visit vids!
I've seen that ... Brilliant but I think it was done more for the great unwashed ... You know... More the broad strokes ... I would like to hear THGs detailed take on it
@@TheMagusOfTheMagnaCarta I think he did so one that included this incident. Might want to watch them all.
I believe one of the four stackers that were transferred to the Royal Navy was sacrificed in the operation.
@@jrt818 yep... HMS Campeltown
Great story! Fantastic delivery! Cram packed with details! Thank you so much! 🌈
Thank you for honoring the legacy of USS Roper and her sinking of U-85. Proud of her honorable actions and attention to the security of our nation.
THG: The story of Jeep is all over UA-cam but the facts are all over the place! I was hoping you could do it and we know it will be correct! Thank you!
Civilian clothes?
A friend of mine, born in 1943, told me of his vague recollectiond of the Atlantic City Boardwalk, mostly woman and children and a "few men, all blonde haired, blue eyed".
Once again, a great History Guy post. And btw, congrats on your most recent accolades.
All those many years ago....Thanks for bring this to the light of day in 2020... You are Priceless my friend....Best wishes in this new year....God Bless...And God Bless America.....America was named after nothing much more than a Pirate...Amerigo Vespucci....!
I had the chance to scuba dive the U-85. I appreciate the information you share here about the battle.
Have to think that a sunken enemy submarine is a war grave and should remain untouched after the war. It is illegal to interfere with wartime wrecks off the Australian coast for this reason, including the Japanese mini-sub that raided Sydney Harbour. It lies off Sydney's northern beaches.
Agree. It should of been treated that way.
There is an excellent 2004 book Shadow Divers about the discovery of a previously-unknown U-boat off the coast of New Jersey. Note that according to Wikipedia, this book's version of events has been disputed.
Australia doesn't make rules for the rest of the world.
@@badweetabix There is usual agreement throughout mankind of respect for the dead. Sad you don't display any of that basic humanity. Change is possible...
Awesome video. Suggestion for another video: Dan Sickles.
Just looked on UA-cam and you’ve done it. Pleas ignore. Watching a new video of yours now.
We might get back to Mr Sickles.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel Growing up in the State of Georgia, back in the 1960's and '70's, I always heard a rumour, which could be an urban myth or a conflated story, that the captain of a German submarine off the coast of Georgia, around Brunswick, St Simons Island, Jekyll Island, or Darian, used to nonchalantly come ashore and buy groceries for his crew at the local stores or markets. Somehow, he played it off. Who knows, if it's true?
...I suppose, if the question of who he was came up, he could merely claim, that he was a captain of a ship from a friendly or neutral country, and most people along the Georgia Coast in those days, might not have been able to tell one foreign accent from another, and if the captain in question had money to spend or goods to trade, they might lean toward giving them the benefit of the doubt.
One of my maternal uncles served as a 5" gun shell striker on a secondary battery mount of the battleship USS Alabama (BB60) during WWII. The Alabama held the proud record of having lost not a single man in combat during the war including the kamikaze attacks of 1944-45. However, during one action a gunner on one of the 5" weapons overoad a safety fitting which kept one mount from firing into the rear of the mount forward of it. Number 5 mount had fired into number 9 killing 5 and wounding another 11. I am grateful that my uncle was not in, I believe, either. I do not know if he was at his station in his mount at the time and I did not know about the sad incident while I was researching to build a model of the Alabama. I only wish I could have done so while he was alive but at the time, no kit suitable existed and scratch building was beyond (and still is) my skill level though I have a collection of several hundred ship models (not too weird for a retired theater prof eh?). I know that there is some sensitivity about discussing the accident or at least there was. Nevertheless it seems altogether fitting that someone ought to note the passing of sailors in the midst of battle who die in such a tragic and sorrowful manner. I don't know how many of the 'Bama's crew are still alive and while I would never wish to highlight the incredible sadness which may rest in the hearts of the offending mount crew it seem reasonable that those who died or even experienced the incident ought to know that we sorrow with their loved ones even today. The navy may still be sensitive to the incident but perhaps you can uncover details that would be comforting to family and friends. I trust to your obvious professionalism in the research and presentation. You do that very well you know. The camera also clearly "likes" you and that is something to thank your parents for. Having done a number of feature films, tv shows and commercials as well as teaching acting and directing for stage and screen my opinion might count for something. Thanks so much for your work. One of my degrees is in theater history which is, as we know, the history of the world.
This may tighten your search time. This occurred on 12 Feb. 1945 during Operation Hailstone while Alabama was escorting carriers striking Truk. The Task Force was undergoing air attack but not, I think, a kamikaze attack.
I feel like I'm back in History class. Very interesting and informative.
one for you if you haven't done it already
U-559
Lieutenant Anthony Fasson, Able Seaman Colin Grazier and 16 year old NAAFI canteen assistant Tommy Brown,
and Tommy's later fate
I'd love to see you do a video on the USS Liberty incident, but w/ how politicized everything is these days I can completely understand why you might not want to. it would just rile people up across the spectrum, but it truly is history that deserves to be remembered
And the Pueblo incident.
I have just found your channel and have really enjoyed your videos. I'm 41 due to being knocked off my bike 🚲 while working as a carer, I have been forced to give up the career. As my ankle is screwed, 2 years later I still need crutches. So I decided to go to university next September to study history. I don't want to be on benefits for the rest of my life. Channels like yours inspire me. Student loans at my age are scary but got to do something to improve life so thank you for all the inspiration
One morning in September 2009 on the dive boat the 'Go-Between' owned by the Outer Banks Dive Center established in Nags Head, NC we headed out to the site of the U-85 through the Oregon Inlet where the submarine is located 8 miles off shore. Onboard was the distinguished WWII gentleman who was responsible for the initial rake of gun fire from the .50 caliber deck machine gun on the USS Roper. He told us the story of the encounter. It was Memorial Day and his grandson was there to take pictures as floral reefs were tossed into the ocean above the remains. I have the gents signature in my dive book. I myself had an eerie dive on this vessel on 10/10/10. Sunday , October 10, 2010. I was diving solo between the customers off gassing and preparing for the 2nd dive. While down a rogue wave washed over the U boat and visibility went to almost zero. I went from fore to aft twice (220') trying to find the chain near the conning tower and way up.... I was nearly out of air done there with fish and eels but the Spade fish started my mind reeling a bit. Wade Saleeby, Dive Master, OBX Dive Center 2009
You were diving alone? You know better than that.
Ahoy comrade!! Excellent as always, I cannot fully express my appreciation for your work and attention to detail. I was hoping to, with neither malice nor ill intent, attempt a small correction that I have been guilty of for many years as well.
Myself and my family have enjoyed the Outer Banks of NC for over 20 years, it is a very different and almost alien landscape that I truly love. We already saw this lighthouse and pronounced the name such as you have (bow-dee). 2 years ago I had a local stop and correct me, in typical banker fashion, that it is pronounced more like “body”. At the light the ranger confirmed this to me. Apparently, the Outer Banks have their own peculiar dialect that uses a lot of Scottish words and spellings in addition to Native American phrasing. I find it hilarious and still pronounce the old way, some habits die hard, yet I assumed (correctly I hope) that you would be curious about this and wanted to share. Thank you again for your work comrade, shchasty!
Arkadi
Bodie Island (and the lighthouse) were supposedly called that after the large numbers of bodies that washed ashore after shipwrecks. It's still Bodie (Body) Island to this day. I live 8 miles north of this lighthouse and married my wife underneath it in 2019.
2:55 the blame for both the unpreparedness, the heavy losses lies squarely with Admiral King, he has a lot of American blood on his hands, mostly just because of his own vanity.
When it came to Uboats, King was a very, very slow learner.
@@d.owczarzak6888
The RN immediately offered their experiences bought after fighting U-Boats for more than two years but King spurned everything they offered.
King was basically an Anglophobe. In WW 1 he served in Europe as part of Americas presence in one of Americas Battleships which were attached to the British Grand fleet. He didn't feel that they were appreciated enough and felt that the British looked down their noses at Americans. True or not it affected his judgement so that when the British advised that the U.S start a immediate convoy system and kill shore lights along the East coast he deliberately went the other way. Many fine ship s and good men payed the price before he finally was forced to relent.
@@tango6nf477 FDR should have fired King.
This took place just 20 miles from where I live. There's a small roadside plaque telling what happened on that fateful night in 1942. I've fished the U-85 wreck a few times, and each time it feels like someone is watching me...
Thanks for the history, on this sub. I was supposed to dive on it, back in 1980, with my dive club. I had to work overtime, and couldn't go. Those that did, had an exciting trip. Two boats went out. One to dive the sub, and another, to dive a freighter, that may have been a victim of the same sub.
The boat, heading to the freighter, broke a steering cable, and had to be towed back to port. The boat, going to the sub, sank over the wreck. The exhaust pipe, had come loose, on the trip out, and filled the engine compartment, with water. As they powered down, over the wreck, the boat stalled, and started to sink. The divers, put their gear on, and got off the boat, hoping that someone heard their distress call. The boat had enough flotation, so it didn't completely sink. But, they experienced several hours, bobbing around in the ocean.
A good time was not had by all.
Thank the gods for good old ot. Happy New Year.
@@aaronanderson7619
Thanks Aaron
10:30 I don't know why this would be controversial.. the wellbeing of own ship and troops takes precedence above all. Good job by the captain.
It wasn't controversial
I have one tip for you, Helge Ingstad and his connection to the Vemork Heavy Water operation, hint survival and living off the land.
One of the hidden or unknown stories concerns the USS Rowan DD 405 which lost 202 souls of her crew of 273 on 9/11/1943 in the Mediterranean after a UBoat attack. I read that it was one of the largest Navy losses in the Atlantic Theater. My uncle was one of the few survivors.
My daddy was a WWII veteran serving in the Pacific Theater of Operations. For his service he received the Silver Star, three Bronze Stars, two Purple Hearts, and a C.I.B. (Combat Infantryman's Badge). He retired from the US Army after twenty-two years active duty at the rank of E-7 (Sargent First Class). I still miss you, Dad...
I had always heard from several now passed on family members that lived on the Golden Isles of Georgia that there had once been a full on naval battle off the coast of Brunswick during the early stages of the war. My great aunt described hearing thunder rumbling out at sea which seemed out of place one night, when she went to the beach she saw flashes of yellow and dull white lights over the horizon which the thunder seemed to distantly coincide with. The next morning 3 USN ships docked and brought a bunch of sailors and even some German sailors into the hospital where several of them died. They had burned and trauma like they had been blown up. She worked as a nurse at the Brunswick hospital at the time and she had been told she wants allowed to say anything to anyone in town about the wounded or face jail time. Could you do some research and find out what action she was describing? An uncle on another side of the family described seeing and hearing the same thing as a child living on St.Simons at the time. My Aunt lived in Brunswick but was staying with her parents on Jekyll the night of the battle. I have never been able to find any mention of any naval action they described.
That sounds like a juicy story. Somebody up there should do some investigative journalism.
Also, still waiting for the story of the US Marines in Tripoli a century before WW2. Thank you :)
My dad had a book titled "Graveyard of the Atlantic" and at age 9 my family visited the outer banks.
Our vacations were the best education I could get.
Thanks for another great video. The Battle of the Atlantic is not well covered in school. It deserves to be better remembered.