Some people just pick up wow really fast. There's also so many good guides, if you're a new player and wanna be good just look at logs and guides. There's some really good players who are top tier players and they didn't start till a year or two ago. Growl is one of the top m+ healers and didn't start until BfA.
I liked the bit on "no one sounding the alarm in the middle of the night to show up to raid" Seems like people don't understand focusing for 8+ hours straight on a boss fight is something that mentally and physically tires you out, your body needs to decompress and reset. Even if you had a crew like that, if they woke you all up in the middle of the night with no proper rest, you'd be putting in bad attempts cause people's brains would still be fried
Blizzard needs to decide if they want to be a factor in the RTWF. This current trend where they are clearly invested in it but don’t want to take any responsibility is weak. They need to either be a part of it or just stay out like they used to. They say they don’t want to make decisions that only effect 50 players but then are sitting there giving out massive nerfs mid race and even mid pull in this case.
I wonder if they realize the RTWF is having a negative effect on their game. They're focusing on things only the top ten guilds are doing in order to give themselves a bad name.
They only nerfed it so the Guilds didn't have to raid over Christmas again. Echo was 1 day off the kill at most without nerfs, which means killing it on the 24th. Had nothing to do with RWF
I think we can all agree that an overtuned boss is better than an undertuned boss. I think the mythic encounter designer is still mortified after what happened in Emerald Nightmare.
Harder raids have no proof of being better than easier raids basing off of popularity. Vanilla through wrath had way easier raids compared to the raids afterwards but the game was increasing in popularity until it reached a peak in wrath
@@stuff4812 vanilla through wrath was way harder for that time as guilds needed more than 3 months to clear. Nowadays, we have this thing we didn't have back then, Information, ptr and everything.
Tuning bosses live is really annoying but then again they kind of have to since the reset timers/patch-day are different for EU and NA. This is the only way the two would get the fix at the actual same time. Echo played amazing, you guys played amazing. This was a lot closer than the other races recently. Keep it up! For tuning bosses I believe they use simulations, that is probably where things go wrong because it is very hard to simulate human error. Cheers
@@davidstirk164 ppl? No. Echo? They could make it work. Whether they do or not is irrelevant because if you raid 16 hours a day it doesn't really matter when reset is. If reset for them really is 5am on Wednesday, say they wake up and get going around 8-9 am then 16 hours later they go to sleep at midnight. Do that for 7 days and just because the reset hits a few hours before they wake up doesn't mean they get less time.
The best action blizzard couldnhave taken was to just announce the raid nerf ahead of the actual nerf. Then the teams can prepare and go in as fairly as possible
@Billy Mays it would matter a great deal. Echo can choose when to raid. If they want to oull the boss while liquid sleep, or prepare for the nerf by chilling or doing some m+ or whatever. Liquid know that it's coming and can do the same. Even 24hours notice is a significant Improvent over nothing
Heartbreaker of an end to the race but I still enjoyed watching it. Rooting for Liquid in the future to tie back up the score in the recent races. This one was so close the entire way through.
@@PharaohofAtlantis Nah, they (Limit/Liquid) were competitive throughout BFA. Hell they may have taken WF on Uldir, but iirc they were forced to extend their lockout rather than reset due to raiders' schedules. Including the competitive period would put it 6-2 in Echo's favour.
The entire Echo roster used to be Method after HFC. The only person who didn't become part of Echo was Sco. All of Method's World Firsts after HFC are technically Echo's. The score is nowhere near tied.
Could they not have said that they are rolling out the nerf *this day at this time*, like a day before they implement the nerd so all teams get a chance to sleep well before the nerfs hit, and then you could possibly have a close end of the race with both teams doing pulls at the same time?
@@billymays9296 annonce after they have decided. They were not forced to implement it immediately after announcing, they could have easily given at 5-6 hour warning allowing for a more even playing field between the top two competitors.
@@xaoc6084 then dont wait that long, or nerf the boss a day after... Blizzard wanted the boss dead before christmas and so they nerfed it while one team was not even competing. Echo played better on Raza, but we will never now if they would have won fair and square, and I think that sucks for both Liquid and Echo.
I really think the best way for Blizzard to handle this situation was to tell you ahead of time they were going to nerf the boss that way maybe you wouldn’t have stayed up until the early hours of the morning pulling the boss. Could have got some sleep and warmed up while waiting on the nerd
It is about funding somewhat. There are a lot of talented individuals out there that can definitely show out in WF that have to hold down a job year round. WF takes a lot of time and the lower down the brackets the more work it is. Some supplemented income would help even if it paid two weeks wages. Eventually some whale is going to throw up a ton of money to buy a WF team.
i watched you raid after echo killed it and was sincerely impressed with the mood of you guys, the voice was kinda fun still, you went for it and finished the job. im from eu, yet i think u deserved it every bit as much as echo. probably no "real" winner this tier in my opinion
Once both guilds were at razagath Blizzard should have dropped a statement "we want to ensure our devs have a chance to enjoy the Holidays so we will be dropping a nerf to ensure the raid is completed to help complete that goal, we will provide a likely final nerf at this date and time that can meet those goals" by having days to know this was coming than it helps there isnt as much feel bad. I think everyone reasonable agree with the last few years of finding out the poor treatment of the employees that there is extra reason to make sure their devs are taken care of.
"after the nerd the boss was free" >Proceeds to need an additional 4 hours to kill the boss after the nerf when Echo killed it in ONE PULL. Get back to reality Max, you were beaten fair and square.
Also, I remember Max saying that it's just part of the race and something you have to accept last time changes mid-race negatively impacted European guilds.
@@sssembler you mean they announced it while one team was sleeping and the other was already working? Also, you mean the team that had been pulling it for hours killed it first try after nerf; meanwhile the other team woke up to defeat and didn't kill it first try while dealing with warming up, sense of defeat, and tilt from finding out the other team killed it cause it got nerfed while they were asleep? Are those conditions you would find acceptable for a competitive environment? I want to be clear I'm not defending Liquid... I just would appreciate a fair and level playing field.
I just want to put my two cents in that Max is an incredible competitor, displays exceptional maturity and is an excellent role model for non-toxic contention and sportsmanship. I encourage both my kids to look to him as an example of how a man behaves in both success and shortfall.
I like echo and I'm glad they won. No one will know if echo could kill pre nerf because the timers when things get spicy were changed. Echo had a clean kill on the first nerf pull but it was most likely clean because the timers weren't as hurtful as they were for all previous last phase pulls.
It was a real anticlimactic way to end the race. Blizzard really botched the enjoyment as a viewer too with the balancing since I also felt cheated watching Dathea. It was just a real downer vibe in all chats. I believe that Liquid will approach next race differently seeing how they got punished multiple times for very logical actions without hindsight. Edit: Both teams did great, I agree that Echo pulled better in general. But it just sucks for everyone involved including the audience.
I found the end really enjoyable, the nerf was really overstated echo killed the boss way before the enrage purely because that pull was insane, there was no way of seeing just how much the nerf came into play just because of the timing of god pull + nerf
@@gloobs988 I agree, wasnt over-nerfed since liquid didn't get it instantly. It also sucks for Echo since that pull is soured by the nerf. I just think the Race as a whole was brought down by the poor tuning and I lost interest on the final days.
Blizzard's argument that theres no good time to nerf a boss is bullshit. Announce it at least half a day before and give the Guilds the opportunity to plan for it and adapt their strats.
@@billymays9296 have you no brain? can you not see the different between doing it quietly while one group is asleep and announcing it ahead of time so they can plan accordingly?
I really felt like Echos gearing system was a bit extreme in manipulating the trade rules. I think the 2 hr timer should continue to tick when offline. It felt super bad to have them gear how they did, then use liquid strats to catch up. I’d love to see blind v blind progressions.
Max was talking about how he doesn't want salary caps and other sports-y stuff. I'm sure Max realizes this, but he literally has the power to become the NFL of the RWF if he gets echo on board. He could just sit down with Scripe one day and hash out some kind of charter to make the race more competitive. Player caps and maybe designated stop and start times with specific instructions for resets and/or nerfs. Invite the other guilds like Method and BDGG to be involved if they want but if not then who cares. I wouldn't be surprised if something like this happens since Blizzard has really messed up the last few races when it comes to the community.
Echo did 16 hour days for 10 days. They wanted it more. Limit/ Liquid or whatever they called themselves this week aren’t as committed, same as last tier when they decided to take a break mid progression
Diurna being so perfectly tuned to Week 1 gear was funny when all the other bosses needed tweaking, but holy shit that fight looked sick with that tight tuning.
Totally right about splits affecting RWF viewership. I tried to watch a couple times but it was always splits it seemed so i stopped tuning in or checking in. Not sure what they can do to really fix that though.
Im super curious as to why the race to world first pro teams dont have like a b-team. It would be super interesting, and I could definitely see the benefit of having a b-team. It could be someone that raids after the main raid team gets off, sorta just trying to keep upto date and continue prog with alt people. Maybe its that organizing 20-30 people already is a pain, and organizing upwards of 60people would be just so much, in addition to there just not being enouhg people to fill out a second worthy team. However, imo if you could get a raid leader worthy of a b-team it would be super worth. (Although another reason, is that people who join the rtwf might want to be on main roster, and being on b-team is a death sentence for that dream. As you then cant really be used as an alternate.) Another factor is though, you could have newer unproven players that still need to work on their play abit. But you want to give them race to world first experience. Plus the race to world first is somewhat a big deal nowadays, so maybe itd be worth it to have an extra team not necessarily eating some of the a-teams viewers. Although too, if b-team were to somehow win the race, it probs would be super bad for the a-team morale. And having a team with no support too, might make b-team super toxic. But if its done well it could work out so who knows xD
I know Blizzard doesn't really care about the race, but having something like Destiny 2's contest mode active until the reset after the final boss is killed would fix like 90% of the issues. Disable tier bonuses, locked ilvl, etc. Everyone starts on the same level playing field so all that matters is comp and skill.
For what it's worth, I'm always team Liquid. You fucking rock, Max! Also Blizzard if you're looking, please increase the range of Kill Cleave for BM hunters.
I think its kinda stupid that they nerf a raid over and over again just for a specific group of people to finish the content faster. Wow has more players than just the pro's and the game shouldn't be tailored to them. League of Legends does the same shit and its really stupid.
max youre right about the casuals not watching due to splits, i was one. I was watching you guys do split runs on heroics and just totally stopped watching.
Max cant seem to grasp that Echo started after Liquid and were behind the whole time. On the day they won, they were ahead. It is not as Max says at all, with the guild passing and lagging behind each other. Liquid were ahead 90% of the time, because they started first, Echo overtook on then final day and came from behind to do so. The nerf is literally such copium for Max and NA who were being beated by Echo when the kill came despite started before. Echo deserved the win. If Echo had gone to sleep without kill and Liquid and woken up and killed, there would be an argument that Liquid started first and that would be absolutely valid.
So, if you want to make this RWF not a joke like it has been since it’s inception, liquid and echo would sync their raid times. No matter when reset is, start at night in the EU and in the morning in NA.
blizzard still showing how incompetent they are.... nothing changes. no one nerfs something by 50% and knows what they're doing. 34:53 legion shadow priest. windwalker in 5.4. they do that shit all the time because the gap can over double in the top 100 players. they don't like that at all.
How wl sucks on Kurog? I do the most dmg on that fight, full sinlge target without fel sunder +the dogs to aoe... Idk max knows better for sure, but feels wierd
There is class capabilities and player skill capabilities and it seems you are playing with players who arent as good as you but put in a group with others you wouldnt be top cause your class would be limited... ex. Top players in the world of equal skill the warlock is capped by the class rather then the player
Big fan of the RTWF competition, I follow the race whenever I get the chance and while I call myself a Liquid fan (purely for the killer commentary) I always love to see the neck-and-neck fights and massive props to Echo for winning. The race would certainly be way more boring without either guild. Love to see everyone involved playing their best no matter what.
It's only tight because of NA is so hugely favored.. imagine if they startet at the same time and the Start was EU prime time... It would not even be a race for first, but a race for 3rd or 4th
I like this open/eloberate QA, i am an Echo fan myself. But always nice to see some serious competition, hope the next race blizz makes nerfs later/on a more balanced timing for both competitors.
@@merkur69 That would have been better honestly. I agree that there is not a perfect time to nerf a boss but both teams should have had some pulls on nerfed boss. This timing was pretty awful.
What I don't understand is Blizzards information policy. Why don't they give an information like: We want to adjust the difficulty of encounter xyz and we plan on implementing this at xx:xx UTC with maintenance/server restart.
After every RTWF, I always think the same thing. "Why doesn't blizzard just put out a vague pre established schedule on when they will deploy a nerf, if it's needed". What I mean by this is, they put out a schedule that says "If we need to nerf a boss, it will happen between xtime - xtime (Insert timezone) on any given day. Obviously other hotfixes may happen, but bosses shouldn't be touched outside of their scheduled time (to the best of their ability). This would allow teams to (In the very least) have some idea of when a nerf MAY happen, and can somewhat schedule around possible nerfs, and would be able to safely take breaks, (and sleep) without the worry of nerfs randomly happening.
Hey max! I have a suggestion for the splits, if you put up a banner saying "We are currently doing splits for gear, we expect to start Mythic roughly 18:00 on Wednesday" I think it would help viewership. Good luck in the next race!
It would do the opposite. It would be very convenient for you who suggested this. Some people show up and wonder what is going on. They either leave on their own or enjoy the casters and stick around. If there was a banner saying we aren't currently doing the mythic raid people would read the banner and leave without consuming anything that might keep them around. Mr. Beast says never post anything that encourages people to leave or tell your audience that you are broadcasting anything that isn't worth seeing. You would be providing reasons and excuses for the audience to watch something else. The banner would be very good for you who knows exactly what you want but bad for maybe retaining others who are just curious.
@@semi6544 I think if you just show up for the content (I'm one of those people) you don't care what they are doing, so the banner won't discourage you. But if you are there for the race, you will know when the mythic part might be starting so you can tune back in instead of just shutting down the stream and not coming back.
@@betelgeux6010 -- So, the mythic race is what everyone is tuning in to watch. In order to win the race, you need enough good gear to compete. You get the gear by running as many instances of the normal raid and heroic raid as efficiently possible. In these lower level raids, you funnel gear to the characters that are going to be in the final mythic raid. After you have run enough splits to where you believe you have enough item level to win, then you begin the actual mythic race. A lot of people learn from the splits as well because most people watching don't compete in the mythic level. The splits are content most of the viewers actually do themselves. They just don't do them as specifically as a World First competitive guild is doing them with strategies like armor stacking and funneling loot. This is my opinion of it someone else may explain it differently.
How would feel about taking RWF to a tournament realm? Like give everyone heroic gear on the roster and consumables and going to town from day 1. This would get rid of splits, allow everyone to start on the same playing field, and just let it go. All the RNG would be in the loot dropping from mythic bosses, and it would be more skill.
its the same cope every single time liquid is just not as good as echo for the time being still world class second best easy but just worse than echo almost every raid and its so tiring hearing this stuff after every single raid tier lately
If blizzard cares about the race then they could just announce changes like a day early or probably even less given that these guilds are playing all day
Mythic gul'dan sat warlocks, there were 0 in the world first kill Mythic helya sat warlocks, they were literally only there for gateway Mythic argus sat warlocks, it was terrible at a lot of parts of the fight, especially on orbs Mythic azshara warlock was highly average Mythic jaina dest warlock was pretty good but hardly op Mythic denathrius warlock was average Mythic kil'jaeden warlock was sat, one was only brought for gateway Unsure where this revisionist history and gaslighting is coming from but warlock has been bad or unplayable on a lot of bosses over the last 10 years. It was only g'huun, jailer, and uu'nat where warlock was incredibly op. With jailer only being because of power infusion scaling quadratically with demo warlock, and uu'nat because of permanent corruption on adds that take 0 damage so it got a lot of st damage + it could circle the laser beams and tank with soul leech. Boomies and rogues and mages have been stacked to 2-3 on almost every single endboss in the game give or take a couple, like mage on Jaina was a glorified int buff where scripe was infamously doing like 15% less dps than everyone else. Warlock has this weird target on it not sure why but when it's good people moan and whine about it even when all three specs were unplayable for over half of an expansion (legion). Tons of boomies and hunters are brought to almost every raid but nobody seems to whine about them. Heck, go to the pre-expansion tier list and watch people kappa at the warlock main saying that affliction is going to be doggy dumpster dolly doodoo tier. Spoiler, it is. Nobody seems to have a level head when it comes to lock, probably because they haven't ever played it.
You guys in Liquid and Echo just played so fucking good dude. Such a tight race it was exciting af!!!! You guys are very inspiring, so much so, I never raided before and started playing wow in bfa (never played an rpg or mmo) and after your 8.3 race it inspired me to LEAD a heroic raid and kill N'zoth for the AOTC mount (no one would accept me with almost no io score). You guys fuckin rock man! Edit: "NUGGIES" 💯
I freaking LOVED watching your kurog prog. Seeing the gradual progression of the boss health% and how adds went from barely dieing to just melting in p1/p2 in combination with absurd healing requirements (Other bases had as well, but as a viewer I feel like kurog showcased them the most to me as a viewer).
TBF I don't think Liquid would win even without the nerfs, echo was like sooo much ahead.. just look how much liquid needed to kill the boss after the nerfs..
They need to just not tune bosses so badly… the nerfs are literally the worst part of the RWF every time. All the other factors are minor in comparison imo
The simple solution is, let the raiders nerf the boss. Obviously in a more mechanical and limited strategic raid. Like you get 4 nerfs per reset. Use them wisely. And blizz just tunes boss so you need to use some nerfs on second to last boss.
I must say as usual the endboss got alittle boring to watch when honestly the most wipes happened in P1 and not so much in later phases. I absolutely loved watching Kurog and Broodkeeper aswell as Tero and Sennarth i wish they would have lived another 30-40 pulls respectively and that the race was actually gradually getting harder intead of all the hard bosses were all in the 60-80 pull range and all easy bosses 1-15 instead of making the first 2 bosses 1-15 pull bosses then next 2 are 40-50 next 2 80-100 and last 2 are 150-200 pulls. Anyway sad to see nerfs ending the race but it must still be far better to end the race before xmas for everyone to get home to their familys intime and be 2nd then to raid over xmas and maybe still end up 2nd!
Btw, i'm new to wow but i watch a LOT of pro gaming (mobas, rts, some cards) and i think i know why asia is bad at RTWF. Asia ppls are good at grinding stuff, and perfecting it up. They are usualy not good when thrown into unknown and need to improvise. So i dont think RTWF suits theyer mentality. If you gave everyone 6 month of traying and made a race "who slams the whole dung fastest" as m+, i bet you asians will be on the top of this race.
do you wish blizzard woulve told you about the nerf to make it more fair and even and at the same time? would you rather have the raid start after the holidays so there would be less changes and nerfs to beat before the holidays? do you think blizzard could have shut down the boss and told everyone at same time and then released it on a set time that worked for the top 2 raid teams so both knew at same time and could start raiding same time?
Good job with RTWF competition was great as allways but i have to say Mods at you`r channel and Liquid channel were toxic big time and there was tones of useless bans including me! Even being banned ive still watched you`r stream since i respect you but you are losing fans couse of the mods u got! good luck with next race!
cry me a river man, You start 12 hours before EU, and You still complain and blame nerfs. You had literally 12 hours advantage over them. Keep crying man, and take that L
If Blizzard wanted Raszageth dead before the holidays then why did they release the raid mid December!?!? Feel like the expansion could have benefitted from a December launch and a January raid release
Lessons of the RWF.... Lesson 1) Do not have Mythic release at the same time as normal and heroic. It was boring as hell to watch and did nothing to actually bridge the gap between the ever elusive top 2 guilds of liquid and echo and the other exceptional players in the top 20 guilds in the world. This was simply because outside of these orgs that have the resource to throw at it its unrealistic to get a top 20 guild to harbour a roster of 20-25 players that will completely clear their schedule to take 2 weeks to solely focus on RWF. Lesson 2) there is no reason to not have LFR on day one of Normal and Heroic, The only arguement I could see was limiting tier set acquisition but it served 0 purpose as the top guilds were degen'ing split runs anyway to min max tier set acquisition without LFR....sooo just give us LFR on release.. Lesson 3) The RWF is too damn long....1-2 weeks is too demanding on casters too demanding on viewers and too demanding on players despite the fact that of course the top guilds will degen whatever they need to to win but that doesnt mean do it...2-3 days would make a far better event. Lesson 4) This will nicely tie it all together but its gonna sting....Increase the time between dropping heroic and dropping mythic. Wait wait wait now i know it sounds gross but this will give the other top 10-20 guilds more time to gear not putting as much emphasis on split runs which arent fun to watch or participate in. It means more guilds will be competitive as they will have closer gear gaps and a shorter race means more realitic guilds can no life 2-3 days rather than 1-2 weeks and finally gives blizzard far more data to make the necessary tweaks for mythic and tune mythic only mechanics with greater precision...
Bro, literally no raider wants the RWF to be 3 days. That means it's either 1 boss with decent tuning, or 8-10 bosses that are all insanely poorly tuned (way too easy). Mythic raiders do Mythic for the challenge, if you want to watch raids fall over in 2-3 days, then watch a Heroic Guild instead.
If the duration between Mythic release and Normal/HC release was longer, they would just do more splits, have more characters ready (like Liquid this time around who didn't have all the specs they would have wanted) and then most likely started selling HC runs to fund their race. You think it would make them play more normally, it wouldn't. You can't make people who have committed to being degens stop being degens in a way like this, only make them more degen. Please keep your lukewarm IQ takes to yourself.
@@billymays9296 Remove splits and condense the mythic pulls of everything this tier to time spent pulling prog bosses eranog 1 primal 1 terros 5 etc etc all the time taken could probably amount to 3 days or so of standard raiding hours...I genuinely disagree with you its just front loaded with all the splits we have to watch....i genuinely reckon a longer gap between heroic and mythic dropping would make the mythic release a quicker race to the tune of 3 days ish.
@@KillchainGames It differs from each raid, compare pull counts from this to Sepulcher or Tomb and you get a completely different story. Having the entire race be boiled down to 3 days is utterly pointless. Hard disagree.
@@xaoc6084 Yea exactly the point, if you want this to be a race either have it like days of old....long drawn out progression that will take the 3-4 weeks of progress but only have the event for the last boss or two? Or make the entirety shorter so more people can experience it. Originally the multiple difficulties were implement to preserve challenge but allow all walks of life to experience raid story and feel they completed content. CE but not RWF guilds will still get what 2 to 3 months of prog out of this raid? Either way you either preserve things as they are and choose to let RWF die or you start making changes to facilitate a more enjoyable race and make it better for the everyman. I dont think my changes actually effect the everyman at all. the entire rebuttal if heard is...."its pointless" Open to a debate.
iirc one of the analysts of echo said that the perfect pull they had for their kill would've been sub 2% prenerf, and that pull was just absolutely insanely clean, like you can't really wish for a better pull than that.
@@TM-bo8kj my bad boys I fucked up indeed However both guilds went deep into p3 prior to nerfs, so unless with a godlike pull where they find 6-8 extra %…
as for the tier piece/split changes, change the day for mythic reset from the rest, mythic opens on thursday, now you got 2 days to be a degen and no one can say anything about it.
I don’t think I’ve seen echo make a video with excuses. As much as I like liquid, echo is just better and will be better. The only time echo lost to liquid was because of the Method/echo drama. Max needs to quit the excuse and either controls his guild to be more serious like echo, or just waste their time again and again and end up #2.
Half of my entertainment during this tier was watching people raving in the chat about how boring the stream is when comms are muted. So many hot takes!
Blizzard handle RWFs like complete amateurs, even the time on the year to release it is utterly bad for players, staff and blizzard itself. But there is A LOT of salty NA copium regarding the situation, that race was clean, liquid really stepped up in this one but echo got the edge their is nothing to discuss there. But truly the last day shenanigans and how people handled it just hit like excuses in the end Next race looks promising tho, keep it up but come on blizzard... You got everything to handle this better, it's a complete disgrace, not like people are not used to it anyway but !
As someone who hasn't raided WoW in ages (since WoTLK) but has been raiding FFXIV recently. Why is the question of WHEN the boss will be tuned even a factor? Shouldn't Blizzard be shooting for as minimal tuning to the boss as possible PRIOR to releasing it and starting the WF race?
My thought is that they screwed up really bad on the tuning, but not only that they were insanely slow to apply the necessary nerfs when they obviously wanted it killed before christmas eve. Why did they wait to nerf the adds by 50% for an entire day when it was obvious to everyone that it was undoable. They were a bit quicker on the shield nerf, but still slow (same with knockback nerf too). If they had done those on time, then they could have been much more careful with the final phase nerfing and not overshot it just to get it dead before time ran out. A big L for Blizzard. I think you guys did great and I much prefer watching your streams, but I also agree Echo probably played a little better on Raz. But it was anyones game if Blizz didn't let it play out so badly.
The time to raid is the time that blizzard is working and doing nerfs etc imo. with probably a couple hours after that. making excuses for the reset and downtime of the servers for reset day is a bad plan imo
wouldnt it be so easy for blizzard to announce ahead of time that theyre doing these nerfs so guilds in RTWF can adjust? It doesnt make any sense to do shadow nerfs lol
All the Liquid people were asleep when it got put in the discord. There’s a “secret” discord for top guilds and Blizzard to communicate. It was on that but all the Liquid people were asleep
39:20 That shit bothers me. I get that Ret Paladin isn't meta but we got a blanket 50% nerf to damage AND a 50% nerf to AoW procs, yet rogue is fine. Like what? Rogues are basically unkillable in raid, have tons of defensive skills AND do cracked damage. Ret has garbage mobility, garbage survival, and then we get hit with a massive nerf because our tier set on the beta was way overtuned. (They changed the set bonus but left us nerfed into the ground.) Idk. Seeing the same specs over and over is fucking old and makes RWF boring. Rogues, warlocks, mages, etc. Evoker had mechanics in the fights built specifically for them and even you said it: They are a damage spec that doesn't do enough of it. It just seems like it's the same 4 or 5 specs every tier, every expansion.
Casual Viewpoint .. Liquid is a team of kids, coming across as entitled and elite, Echo comes across as a team of Adults, who could easily converse with you if met randomly in any Con. Professionalism plays a part in attitude and Echo showed this winning yet again.
I found a lot of respect for Maximum in this discussion. He was upset, but understanding. Why, though, don't people look at how many pulls it took a guild after a nerf, no matter when it happened, and declare them the winner? If Echo killed it within 3 pulls after the nerf but Liquid did it in 2 pulls when they finally woke up, didn't they respond better to the nerf? Of course if any guild just rips a strat from whomever killed the boss first than that's not an appropriate measure.
I have to wonder how badly viewership was affected by the absurd amount of ads Twitch runs now. I tuned into Max's stream at one point and even with a ~90% functional adblocker it was basically unwatchable due to the quality dipping whenever ads got blocked. I don't think the stream went more than 10 minutes tops without a new set of ads, and it was more frequent than that most of the time.
Weird question, so hall of Fame is a guild achievement does everyone in the guild get that title or only the people that were in the 20 man group that got the kill?
One of my best friends started playing in bfa s4, picked fire mage, and was top damage in his raid team and got CE before the end of season. Madness.
Wow he must have been an insane player to top damage on fire mage in bfa s4 :O
@@Dilllll26 He was parsing like 95% of fire mages haha
@@Dilllll26 But fair point
Some people just pick up wow really fast. There's also so many good guides, if you're a new player and wanna be good just look at logs and guides. There's some really good players who are top tier players and they didn't start till a year or two ago.
Growl is one of the top m+ healers and didn't start until BfA.
@@beeman4266 Yeah, I introduced him to subc, raidbots, and warcraft logs, and he flew with it.
I liked the bit on "no one sounding the alarm in the middle of the night to show up to raid"
Seems like people don't understand focusing for 8+ hours straight on a boss fight is something that mentally and physically tires you out, your body needs to decompress and reset. Even if you had a crew like that, if they woke you all up in the middle of the night with no proper rest, you'd be putting in bad attempts cause people's brains would still be fried
Blizzard needs to decide if they want to be a factor in the RTWF. This current trend where they are clearly invested in it but don’t want to take any responsibility is weak. They need to either be a part of it or just stay out like they used to. They say they don’t want to make decisions that only effect 50 players but then are sitting there giving out massive nerfs mid race and even mid pull in this case.
Well said, either it’s an official thing or stay the F out of it and stop basing anything on it
That would mean they couldn’t make changes to the bosses during RWF, which is still them being involved with it. It’s a no win.
I am done watching the races at this point. Taking the race out of the players hands sucked the life straight out of it.
I wonder if they realize the RTWF is having a negative effect on their game. They're focusing on things only the top ten guilds are doing in order to give themselves a bad name.
They only nerfed it so the Guilds didn't have to raid over Christmas again. Echo was 1 day off the kill at most without nerfs, which means killing it on the 24th. Had nothing to do with RWF
I think we can all agree that an overtuned boss is better than an undertuned boss. I think the mythic encounter designer is still mortified after what happened in Emerald Nightmare.
Harder raids have no proof of being better than easier raids basing off of popularity. Vanilla through wrath had way easier raids compared to the raids afterwards but the game was increasing in popularity until it reached a peak in wrath
@@stuff4812 vanilla through wrath was way harder for that time as guilds needed more than 3 months to clear. Nowadays, we have this thing we didn't have back then, Information, ptr and everything.
@Nightbless and players are far better. Also every raid after BWL went on PTR
@@Mr91Jmay it's like, people got better at a game they Play on a daily basis...
Tuning bosses live is really annoying but then again they kind of have to since the reset timers/patch-day are different for EU and NA. This is the only way the two would get the fix at the actual same time.
Echo played amazing, you guys played amazing. This was a lot closer than the other races recently. Keep it up!
For tuning bosses I believe they use simulations, that is probably where things go wrong because it is very hard to simulate human error.
Cheers
this is true and NA technically get more time on the race which is an advantage
@@davidstirk164 how does na get more time?
@@justinmarzan8599 you think people in the eu are playing at 4am in the morning on Wednesday Over a mid day reset Tuesday reset for na ?
@@davidstirk164 ppl? No. Echo? They could make it work. Whether they do or not is irrelevant because if you raid 16 hours a day it doesn't really matter when reset is.
If reset for them really is 5am on Wednesday, say they wake up and get going around 8-9 am then 16 hours later they go to sleep at midnight. Do that for 7 days and just because the reset hits a few hours before they wake up doesn't mean they get less time.
@@justinmarzan8599 I mean it does and it’s been proven lmao people are sleeping at different times
The best action blizzard couldnhave taken was to just announce the raid nerf ahead of the actual nerf. Then the teams can prepare and go in as fairly as possible
Doesn't matter, because of time difference, the timing will never be fair.
@@billymays9296 but it's still better than waking up to the race being over.
@Billy Mays it would matter a great deal. Echo can choose when to raid. If they want to oull the boss while liquid sleep, or prepare for the nerf by chilling or doing some m+ or whatever. Liquid know that it's coming and can do the same. Even 24hours notice is a significant Improvent over nothing
@@Pixelsdg1 I could be wrong but pretty sure they all got 2 hours notice.
@@KirkpatrickSounds im talking like 24hours, not that it matters honestly. its just a bit of a shame. Like max said nothing would be ideal
Any changes that can affect RWF should always be announced properly with enough advance - at least 2 days notice.
2 days is like half the raid tier :p
Heartbreaker of an end to the race but I still enjoyed watching it. Rooting for Liquid in the future to tie back up the score in the recent races. This one was so close the entire way through.
It's 3-1 Echo at this point. But close race so we'll see what 10.1 brings.
@@TheRikuideFurame I am counting Nyalotha. As (as far as I know) it was when got competitive. But regardless, love watching the race when it's close.
@@PharaohofAtlantisagreed
@@PharaohofAtlantis Nah, they (Limit/Liquid) were competitive throughout BFA. Hell they may have taken WF on Uldir, but iirc they were forced to extend their lockout rather than reset due to raiders' schedules.
Including the competitive period would put it 6-2 in Echo's favour.
The entire Echo roster used to be Method after HFC. The only person who didn't become part of Echo was Sco. All of Method's World Firsts after HFC are technically Echo's. The score is nowhere near tied.
Could they not have said that they are rolling out the nerf *this day at this time*, like a day before they implement the nerd so all teams get a chance to sleep well before the nerfs hit, and then you could possibly have a close end of the race with both teams doing pulls at the same time?
They decided on the nerf that day, then announced it, then implemented it. How can they announce it before deciding on it?
@@billymays9296 annonce after they have decided. They were not forced to implement it immediately after announcing, they could have easily given at 5-6 hour warning allowing for a more even playing field between the top two competitors.
@@billymays9296 they could decide on nerfing. say "hey in 12 hours we are nerfing this boss. Get ready"?
@@lukasnielsen2839 I think it’s a catch 22, if they waited 5-6 hours wasn’t that when Echo would be logging off? It’s definitely a complex one.
@@xaoc6084 then dont wait that long, or nerf the boss a day after... Blizzard wanted the boss dead before christmas and so they nerfed it while one team was not even competing. Echo played better on Raza, but we will never now if they would have won fair and square, and I think that sucks for both Liquid and Echo.
I really think the best way for Blizzard to handle this situation was to tell you ahead of time they were going to nerf the boss that way maybe you wouldn’t have stayed up until the early hours of the morning pulling the boss. Could have got some sleep and warmed up while waiting on the nerd
So unfortunate
It is about funding somewhat. There are a lot of talented individuals out there that can definitely show out in WF that have to hold down a job year round. WF takes a lot of time and the lower down the brackets the more work it is. Some supplemented income would help even if it paid two weeks wages.
Eventually some whale is going to throw up a ton of money to buy a WF team.
i watched you raid after echo killed it and was sincerely impressed with the mood of you guys, the voice was kinda fun still, you went for it and finished the job. im from eu, yet i think u deserved it every bit as much as echo. probably no "real" winner this tier in my opinion
Once both guilds were at razagath Blizzard should have dropped a statement "we want to ensure our devs have a chance to enjoy the Holidays so we will be dropping a nerf to ensure the raid is completed to help complete that goal, we will provide a likely final nerf at this date and time that can meet those goals" by having days to know this was coming than it helps there isnt as much feel bad. I think everyone reasonable agree with the last few years of finding out the poor treatment of the employees that there is extra reason to make sure their devs are taken care of.
not even on razagath , just make the whole dang thing come out on the same time for everyone, and not make the US have a one day advantage
congrats you got the shit end of the stick and told "OOPS, WERE SORRY"
"after the nerd the boss was free"
>Proceeds to need an additional 4 hours to kill the boss after the nerf when Echo killed it in ONE PULL.
Get back to reality Max, you were beaten fair and square.
Also, I remember Max saying that it's just part of the race and something you have to accept last time changes mid-race negatively impacted European guilds.
Hotfixes like that should be scheduled imo... no sense in randomly dropping it like they did. This should be said to someone in blizzard.
wasnt random, it was announced hours before - and again, makes no difference, Liquid took hours after to kill - echo one shot it.
@@sssembler you mean they announced it while one team was sleeping and the other was already working? Also, you mean the team that had been pulling it for hours killed it first try after nerf; meanwhile the other team woke up to defeat and didn't kill it first try while dealing with warming up, sense of defeat, and tilt from finding out the other team killed it cause it got nerfed while they were asleep? Are those conditions you would find acceptable for a competitive environment?
I want to be clear I'm not defending Liquid... I just would appreciate a fair and level playing field.
I’m confused here. Didn’t Blizz notify both team in advance of this nerf? I’ve heard it said there was notice
"light touch"
I just want to put my two cents in that Max is an incredible competitor, displays exceptional maturity and is an excellent role model for non-toxic contention and sportsmanship. I encourage both my kids to look to him as an example of how a man behaves in both success and shortfall.
razageth legit the only fight with shields in vault best fight for deva
I like echo and I'm glad they won. No one will know if echo could kill pre nerf because the timers when things get spicy were changed. Echo had a clean kill on the first nerf pull but it was most likely clean because the timers weren't as hurtful as they were for all previous last phase pulls.
Honestly, listening to max just talk is an absolute clinic. This guy is so well spoken it gets me bricked up. This guy is the truth. Love you Max
It was a real anticlimactic way to end the race. Blizzard really botched the enjoyment as a viewer too with the balancing since I also felt cheated watching Dathea. It was just a real downer vibe in all chats. I believe that Liquid will approach next race differently seeing how they got punished multiple times for very logical actions without hindsight.
Edit: Both teams did great, I agree that Echo pulled better in general. But it just sucks for everyone involved including the audience.
I found the end really enjoyable, the nerf was really overstated echo killed the boss way before the enrage purely because that pull was insane, there was no way of seeing just how much the nerf came into play just because of the timing of god pull + nerf
@@gloobs988 I agree, wasnt over-nerfed since liquid didn't get it instantly. It also sucks for Echo since that pull is soured by the nerf. I just think the Race as a whole was brought down by the poor tuning and I lost interest on the final days.
Blizzard's argument that theres no good time to nerf a boss is bullshit. Announce it at least half a day before and give the Guilds the opportunity to plan for it and adapt their strats.
Have you ever heard of the concept of time difference? There is no good time, because one guild is sleeping while the other is playing.
@@billymays9296 have you no brain? can you not see the different between doing it quietly while one group is asleep and announcing it ahead of time so they can plan accordingly?
The one thing I appreciate the most with this video is how you selectively seem to censor the F word. lmao
I really felt like Echos gearing system was a bit extreme in manipulating the trade rules. I think the 2 hr timer should continue to tick when offline.
It felt super bad to have them gear how they did, then use liquid strats to catch up.
I’d love to see blind v blind progressions.
Its time for Blizzard to make raids Global release and then it will be completely fair and situations like these will be gone
Max was talking about how he doesn't want salary caps and other sports-y stuff.
I'm sure Max realizes this, but he literally has the power to become the NFL of the RWF if he gets echo on board. He could just sit down with Scripe one day and hash out some kind of charter to make the race more competitive. Player caps and maybe designated stop and start times with specific instructions for resets and/or nerfs. Invite the other guilds like Method and BDGG to be involved if they want but if not then who cares.
I wouldn't be surprised if something like this happens since Blizzard has really messed up the last few races when it comes to the community.
There is no shot it happens when the raid is once every 6 months for 2-3weeks. There is a lot of other problems as well but this is a main one
People expect the raiders to no life 18 hr days. They would get burned out in like 3 days. Also blizzard clearly wanted the race over by Christmas.
Echo did 16 hour days for 10 days. They wanted it more. Limit/ Liquid or whatever they called themselves this week aren’t as committed, same as last tier when they decided to take a break mid progression
The simplest thing that could have haopend is don't release the fucken raid until after the holidays like how does no one see thiw as a answer
Diurna being so perfectly tuned to Week 1 gear was funny when all the other bosses needed tweaking, but holy shit that fight looked sick with that tight tuning.
Totally right about splits affecting RWF viewership. I tried to watch a couple times but it was always splits it seemed so i stopped tuning in or checking in. Not sure what they can do to really fix that though.
Im super curious as to why the race to world first pro teams dont have like a b-team.
It would be super interesting, and I could definitely see the benefit of having a b-team. It could be someone that raids after the main raid team gets off, sorta just trying to keep upto date and continue prog with alt people.
Maybe its that organizing 20-30 people already is a pain, and organizing upwards of 60people would be just so much, in addition to there just not being enouhg people to fill out a second worthy team.
However, imo if you could get a raid leader worthy of a b-team it would be super worth.
(Although another reason, is that people who join the rtwf might want to be on main roster, and being on b-team is a death sentence for that dream. As you then cant really be used as an alternate.)
Another factor is though, you could have newer unproven players that still need to work on their play abit. But you want to give them race to world first experience. Plus the race to world first is somewhat a big deal nowadays, so maybe itd be worth it to have an extra team not necessarily eating some of the a-teams viewers.
Although too, if b-team were to somehow win the race, it probs would be super bad for the a-team morale. And having a team with no support too, might make b-team super toxic. But if its done well it could work out so who knows xD
What is that speedometer addon you got?
I know Blizzard doesn't really care about the race, but having something like Destiny 2's contest mode active until the reset after the final boss is killed would fix like 90% of the issues. Disable tier bonuses, locked ilvl, etc. Everyone starts on the same level playing field so all that matters is comp and skill.
For what it's worth, I'm always team Liquid. You fucking rock, Max!
Also Blizzard if you're looking, please increase the range of Kill Cleave for BM hunters.
I think its kinda stupid that they nerf a raid over and over again just for a specific group of people to finish the content faster. Wow has more players than just the pro's and the game shouldn't be tailored to them. League of Legends does the same shit and its really stupid.
Liquid and Echo should merge the race into 1 stream.
That'll take the fun out of it
max youre right about the casuals not watching due to splits, i was one. I was watching you guys do split runs on heroics and just totally stopped watching.
Last tier 4th place now 2nd. Going up. gz
They should have dropped the nerf, at a time that was fair for the competing teams. End of debate.
Did you even listen? His point was that there wasn't a time that would be fair for both guild because of their raid/sleep/reset schedules
Not possible.
@@mdy238 5:00 PM CEST so 8:00 AM PST
@@joeybarber8969 You do realize it was around that time right?
@@TheAssirra really? Well shucks
Max cant seem to grasp that Echo started after Liquid and were behind the whole time. On the day they won, they were ahead. It is not as Max says at all, with the guild passing and lagging behind each other. Liquid were ahead 90% of the time, because they started first, Echo overtook on then final day and came from behind to do so. The nerf is literally such copium for Max and NA who were being beated by Echo when the kill came despite started before. Echo deserved the win. If Echo had gone to sleep without kill and Liquid and woken up and killed, there would be an argument that Liquid started first and that would be absolutely valid.
So, if you want to make this RWF not a joke like it has been since it’s inception, liquid and echo would sync their raid times. No matter when reset is, start at night in the EU and in the morning in NA.
blizzard still showing how incompetent they are.... nothing changes.
no one nerfs something by 50% and knows what they're doing.
34:53 legion shadow priest. windwalker in 5.4. they do that shit all the time because the gap can over double in the top 100 players. they don't like that at all.
Why don't you get a job there then? Someone as competent as you would surely make millions.
@@billymays9296 i did.
i think the format of mythic raiding is just poor for a competitive situation
How wl sucks on Kurog? I do the most dmg on that fight, full sinlge target without fel sunder +the dogs to aoe... Idk max knows better for sure, but feels wierd
There is class capabilities and player skill capabilities and it seems you are playing with players who arent as good as you but put in a group with others you wouldnt be top cause your class would be limited... ex. Top players in the world of equal skill the warlock is capped by the class rather then the player
its sad that some in limit can never lose with class
Go back to personal loot. Raid loot is good for the race and sucks for the rest of us.
Buff Warlock
We actually need it 🤣
TRUE
Big fan of the RTWF competition, I follow the race whenever I get the chance and while I call myself a Liquid fan (purely for the killer commentary) I always love to see the neck-and-neck fights and massive props to Echo for winning. The race would certainly be way more boring without either guild. Love to see everyone involved playing their best no matter what.
loved watching RTWF between you and echo, was a bit of an anticlimactic ending but love that there is such a tight race between na and eu
Method and BDGG replicated the race for 3rd, giving us even more action. Loved it!
@@moldgrim1 yep and EU won that race as well!
@@richtea7868 wait do people actual watch rwf xd
Dose max not know the na get the raid almost a full day ahead for eu?
It's only tight because of NA is so hugely favored.. imagine if they startet at the same time and the Start was EU prime time... It would not even be a race for first, but a race for 3rd or 4th
I like this open/eloberate QA, i am an Echo fan myself. But always nice to see some serious competition, hope the next race blizz makes nerfs later/on a more balanced timing for both competitors.
Na, it was okay, imagine echo couldnt kill it for the next 7 hours and liquid kills in 16h and echo stand up ?
@@merkur69 That would have been better honestly. I agree that there is not a perfect time to nerf a boss but both teams should have had some pulls on nerfed boss. This timing was pretty awful.
@@ВиталийСозонов-ш3ш i mean im basically with u but when i think about the vaultloot privilege im pretty ok with it :P
What I don't understand is Blizzards information policy. Why don't they give an information like: We want to adjust the difficulty of encounter xyz and we plan on implementing this at xx:xx UTC with maintenance/server restart.
After every RTWF, I always think the same thing. "Why doesn't blizzard just put out a vague pre established schedule on when they will deploy a nerf, if it's needed". What I mean by this is, they put out a schedule that says "If we need to nerf a boss, it will happen between xtime - xtime (Insert timezone) on any given day. Obviously other hotfixes may happen, but bosses shouldn't be touched outside of their scheduled time (to the best of their ability). This would allow teams to (In the very least) have some idea of when a nerf MAY happen, and can somewhat schedule around possible nerfs, and would be able to safely take breaks, (and sleep) without the worry of nerfs randomly happening.
loser pov is always so entertaining
Hey max! I have a suggestion for the splits, if you put up a banner saying "We are currently doing splits for gear, we expect to start Mythic roughly 18:00 on Wednesday" I think it would help viewership. Good luck in the next race!
It would do the opposite. It would be very convenient for you who suggested this. Some people show up and wonder what is going on. They either leave on their own or enjoy the casters and stick around. If there was a banner saying we aren't currently doing the mythic raid people would read the banner and leave without consuming anything that might keep them around.
Mr. Beast says never post anything that encourages people to leave or tell your audience that you are broadcasting anything that isn't worth seeing. You would be providing reasons and excuses for the audience to watch something else.
The banner would be very good for you who knows exactly what you want but bad for maybe retaining others who are just curious.
@@semi6544 I think if you just show up for the content (I'm one of those people) you don't care what they are doing, so the banner won't discourage you. But if you are there for the race, you will know when the mythic part might be starting so you can tune back in instead of just shutting down the stream and not coming back.
@@Yattayatta -- I agree. That is what I said in maybe too many words.
It just isn't good for the broadcasters or their advertisement partners.
@@semi6544 what are splits
@@betelgeux6010 -- So, the mythic race is what everyone is tuning in to watch. In order to win the race, you need enough good gear to compete.
You get the gear by running as many instances of the normal raid and heroic raid as efficiently possible.
In these lower level raids, you funnel gear to the characters that are going to be in the final mythic raid.
After you have run enough splits to where you believe you have enough item level to win, then you begin the actual mythic race.
A lot of people learn from the splits as well because most people watching don't compete in the mythic level.
The splits are content most of the viewers actually do themselves.
They just don't do them as specifically as a World First competitive guild is doing them with strategies like armor stacking and funneling loot.
This is my opinion of it someone else may explain it differently.
How would feel about taking RWF to a tournament realm? Like give everyone heroic gear on the roster and consumables and going to town from day 1. This would get rid of splits, allow everyone to start on the same playing field, and just let it go. All the RNG would be in the loot dropping from mythic bosses, and it would be more skill.
I feel like that kinda breaks the immersion of playing an MMO. Feels inorganic.
its the same cope every single time liquid is just not as good as echo for the time being still world class second best easy but just worse than echo almost every raid and its so tiring hearing this stuff after every single raid tier lately
If blizzard cares about the race then they could just announce changes like a day early or probably even less given that these guilds are playing all day
Mythic gul'dan sat warlocks, there were 0 in the world first kill
Mythic helya sat warlocks, they were literally only there for gateway
Mythic argus sat warlocks, it was terrible at a lot of parts of the fight, especially on orbs
Mythic azshara warlock was highly average
Mythic jaina dest warlock was pretty good but hardly op
Mythic denathrius warlock was average
Mythic kil'jaeden warlock was sat, one was only brought for gateway
Unsure where this revisionist history and gaslighting is coming from but warlock has been bad or unplayable on a lot of bosses over the last 10 years. It was only g'huun, jailer, and uu'nat where warlock was incredibly op. With jailer only being because of power infusion scaling quadratically with demo warlock, and uu'nat because of permanent corruption on adds that take 0 damage so it got a lot of st damage + it could circle the laser beams and tank with soul leech. Boomies and rogues and mages have been stacked to 2-3 on almost every single endboss in the game give or take a couple, like mage on Jaina was a glorified int buff where scripe was infamously doing like 15% less dps than everyone else.
Warlock has this weird target on it not sure why but when it's good people moan and whine about it even when all three specs were unplayable for over half of an expansion (legion). Tons of boomies and hunters are brought to almost every raid but nobody seems to whine about them. Heck, go to the pre-expansion tier list and watch people kappa at the warlock main saying that affliction is going to be doggy dumpster dolly doodoo tier. Spoiler, it is. Nobody seems to have a level head when it comes to lock, probably because they haven't ever played it.
lol what is all this quibbling? You lost because you got outplayed. That’s it.
You guys in Liquid and Echo just played so fucking good dude. Such a tight race it was exciting af!!!! You guys are very inspiring, so much so, I never raided before and started playing wow in bfa (never played an rpg or mmo) and after your 8.3 race it inspired me to LEAD a heroic raid and kill N'zoth for the AOTC mount (no one would accept me with almost no io score). You guys fuckin rock man!
Edit: "NUGGIES" 💯
This race was great until the end. Felt like a sports game being decided on a bad call from a referee. Not fun.
I freaking LOVED watching your kurog prog. Seeing the gradual progression of the boss health% and how adds went from barely dieing to just melting in p1/p2 in combination with absurd healing requirements (Other bases had as well, but as a viewer I feel like kurog showcased them the most to me as a viewer).
TBF I don't think Liquid would win even without the nerfs, echo was like sooo much ahead.. just look how much liquid needed to kill the boss after the nerfs..
Sounds like he knows someone who works at a copium facility
They need to just not tune bosses so badly… the nerfs are literally the worst part of the RWF every time. All the other factors are minor in comparison imo
The simple solution is, let the raiders nerf the boss. Obviously in a more mechanical and limited strategic raid. Like you get 4 nerfs per reset. Use them wisely. And blizz just tunes boss so you need to use some nerfs on second to last boss.
I must say as usual the endboss got alittle boring to watch when honestly the most wipes happened in P1 and not so much in later phases.
I absolutely loved watching Kurog and Broodkeeper aswell as Tero and Sennarth i wish they would have lived another 30-40 pulls respectively and that the race was actually gradually getting harder intead of all the hard bosses were all in the 60-80 pull range and all easy bosses 1-15 instead of making the first 2 bosses 1-15 pull bosses then next 2 are 40-50 next 2 80-100 and last 2 are 150-200 pulls.
Anyway sad to see nerfs ending the race but it must still be far better to end the race before xmas for everyone to get home to their familys intime and be 2nd then to raid over xmas and maybe still end up 2nd!
I think bad viewership was also due to christmas, people are busy that month or not home
watching rwf muted is just boring AF, that's why i did not watch it.
Remember when they removed a mechanic from Anduin after yall killed it?
Btw, i'm new to wow but i watch a LOT of pro gaming (mobas, rts, some cards) and i think i know why asia is bad at RTWF. Asia ppls are good at grinding stuff, and perfecting it up. They are usualy not good when thrown into unknown and need to improvise. So i dont think RTWF suits theyer mentality. If you gave everyone 6 month of traying and made a race "who slams the whole dung fastest" as m+, i bet you asians will be on the top of this race.
do you wish blizzard woulve told you about the nerf to make it more fair and even and at the same time? would you rather have the raid start after the holidays so there would be less changes and nerfs to beat before the holidays? do you think blizzard could have shut down the boss and told everyone at same time and then released it on a set time that worked for the top 2 raid teams so both knew at same time and could start raiding same time?
Good job with RTWF competition was great as allways but i have to say Mods at you`r channel and Liquid channel were toxic big time and there was tones of useless bans including me! Even being banned ive still watched you`r stream since i respect you but you are losing fans couse of the mods u got! good luck with next race!
Ngl I definitely watched an hour of splits then never turned it back on.
cry me a river man, You start 12 hours before EU, and You still complain and blame nerfs. You had literally 12 hours advantage over them. Keep crying man, and take that L
If Blizzard wanted Raszageth dead before the holidays then why did they release the raid mid December!?!? Feel like the expansion could have benefitted from a December launch and a January raid release
someone bring some cheese to this whine...
Blaming nerfs for your failure. Who cares about world first anyways. It means little to nothing.
Lessons of the RWF....
Lesson 1) Do not have Mythic release at the same time as normal and heroic. It was boring as hell to watch and did nothing to actually bridge the gap between the ever elusive
top 2 guilds of liquid and echo and the other exceptional players in the top 20 guilds in the world. This was simply because outside of these orgs that have the resource to
throw at it its unrealistic to get a top 20 guild to harbour a roster of 20-25 players that will completely clear their schedule to take 2 weeks to solely focus on RWF.
Lesson 2) there is no reason to not have LFR on day one of Normal and Heroic, The only arguement I could see was limiting tier set acquisition but it served 0 purpose as
the top guilds were degen'ing split runs anyway to min max tier set acquisition without LFR....sooo just give us LFR on release..
Lesson 3) The RWF is too damn long....1-2 weeks is too demanding on casters too demanding on viewers and too demanding on players despite the fact that of course the top guilds
will degen whatever they need to to win but that doesnt mean do it...2-3 days would make a far better event.
Lesson 4) This will nicely tie it all together but its gonna sting....Increase the time between dropping heroic and dropping mythic. Wait wait wait now i know it sounds gross
but this will give the other top 10-20 guilds more time to gear not putting as much emphasis on split runs which arent fun to watch or participate in. It means more guilds will
be competitive as they will have closer gear gaps and a shorter race means more realitic guilds can no life 2-3 days rather than 1-2 weeks and finally gives blizzard far more
data to make the necessary tweaks for mythic and tune mythic only mechanics with greater precision...
Bro, literally no raider wants the RWF to be 3 days. That means it's either 1 boss with decent tuning, or 8-10 bosses that are all insanely poorly tuned (way too easy). Mythic raiders do Mythic for the challenge, if you want to watch raids fall over in 2-3 days, then watch a Heroic Guild instead.
If the duration between Mythic release and Normal/HC release was longer, they would just do more splits, have more characters ready (like Liquid this time around who didn't have all the specs they would have wanted) and then most likely started selling HC runs to fund their race. You think it would make them play more normally, it wouldn't. You can't make people who have committed to being degens stop being degens in a way like this, only make them more degen. Please keep your lukewarm IQ takes to yourself.
@@billymays9296 Remove splits and condense the mythic pulls of everything this tier to time spent pulling prog bosses eranog 1 primal 1 terros 5 etc etc all the time taken could probably amount to 3 days or so of standard raiding hours...I genuinely disagree with you its just front loaded with all the splits we have to watch....i genuinely reckon a longer gap between heroic and mythic dropping would make the mythic release a quicker race to the tune of 3 days ish.
@@KillchainGames It differs from each raid, compare pull counts from this to Sepulcher or Tomb and you get a completely different story. Having the entire race be boiled down to 3 days is utterly pointless. Hard disagree.
@@xaoc6084 Yea exactly the point, if you want this to be a race either have it like days of old....long drawn out progression that will take the 3-4 weeks of progress but only have the event for the last boss or two?
Or make the entirety shorter so more people can experience it. Originally the multiple difficulties were implement to preserve challenge but allow all walks of life to experience raid story and feel they completed content. CE but not RWF guilds will still get what 2 to 3 months of prog out of this raid? Either way you either preserve things as they are and choose to let RWF die or you start making changes to facilitate a more enjoyable race and make it better for the everyman. I dont think my changes actually effect the everyman at all. the entire rebuttal if heard is...."its pointless"
Open to a debate.
iirc one of the analysts of echo said that the perfect pull they had for their kill would've been sub 2% prenerf, and that pull was just absolutely insanely clean, like you can't really wish for a better pull than that.
It's easy to say that with p3 nerfs. For all we know someone might have got one shot in p3 prior to the nerfs.
@@Liftheavy85 final nerf did not affect anything priori to p3…
@@supergaga1712 he said in p3 not prior to p3
@@supergaga1712 Read what he said again
@@TM-bo8kj my bad boys I fucked up indeed
However both guilds went deep into p3 prior to nerfs, so unless with a godlike pull where they find 6-8 extra %…
as for the tier piece/split changes, change the day for mythic reset from the rest, mythic opens on thursday, now you got 2 days to be a degen and no one can say anything about it.
Except EU reset is on Wednesdays, so I guess they only get 1 day of splits?
If you started two days behind the top contenders, would you be motivated to go for first?
No you wouldn't.
No more hot fixes to raids lol would fix everything at least then you guys know a nerf is coming and can prepare for it
It's pretty simple, do boss nerfs as mid-week fixes with 2 day warnings.
you were beaten by the best
I don’t think I’ve seen echo make a video with excuses. As much as I like liquid, echo is just better and will be better. The only time echo lost to liquid was because of the Method/echo drama. Max needs to quit the excuse and either controls his guild to be more serious like echo, or just waste their time again and again and end up #2.
Lunch
Half of my entertainment during this tier was watching people raving in the chat about how boring the stream is when comms are muted. So many hot takes!
Well that goes to show you how boring the stream gets when it’s muted that you had to watch chat just to keep up.
Blizzard handle RWFs like complete amateurs, even the time on the year to release it is utterly bad for players, staff and blizzard itself.
But there is A LOT of salty NA copium regarding the situation, that race was clean, liquid really stepped up in this one but echo got the edge their is nothing to discuss there. But truly the last day shenanigans and how people handled it just hit like excuses in the end
Next race looks promising tho, keep it up but come on blizzard... You got everything to handle this better, it's a complete disgrace, not like people are not used to it anyway but !
As someone who hasn't raided WoW in ages (since WoTLK) but has been raiding FFXIV recently. Why is the question of WHEN the boss will be tuned even a factor? Shouldn't Blizzard be shooting for as minimal tuning to the boss as possible PRIOR to releasing it and starting the WF race?
My thought is that they screwed up really bad on the tuning, but not only that they were insanely slow to apply the necessary nerfs when they obviously wanted it killed before christmas eve. Why did they wait to nerf the adds by 50% for an entire day when it was obvious to everyone that it was undoable. They were a bit quicker on the shield nerf, but still slow (same with knockback nerf too). If they had done those on time, then they could have been much more careful with the final phase nerfing and not overshot it just to get it dead before time ran out. A big L for Blizzard. I think you guys did great and I much prefer watching your streams, but I also agree Echo probably played a little better on Raz. But it was anyones game if Blizz didn't let it play out so badly.
The time to raid is the time that blizzard is working and doing nerfs etc imo. with probably a couple hours after that. making excuses for the reset and downtime of the servers for reset day is a bad plan imo
wouldnt it be so easy for blizzard to announce ahead of time that theyre doing these nerfs so guilds in RTWF can adjust? It doesnt make any sense to do shadow nerfs lol
@Chaosfurian oh fuck that is tragic
All the Liquid people were asleep when it got put in the discord. There’s a “secret” discord for top guilds and Blizzard to communicate. It was on that but all the Liquid people were asleep
@@richtea7868 shouldnt be sleeping at 10am on kill day, ez
39:20
That shit bothers me. I get that Ret Paladin isn't meta but we got a blanket 50% nerf to damage AND a 50% nerf to AoW procs, yet rogue is fine. Like what?
Rogues are basically unkillable in raid, have tons of defensive skills AND do cracked damage. Ret has garbage mobility, garbage survival, and then we get hit with a massive nerf because our tier set on the beta was way overtuned. (They changed the set bonus but left us nerfed into the ground.)
Idk. Seeing the same specs over and over is fucking old and makes RWF boring. Rogues, warlocks, mages, etc. Evoker had mechanics in the fights built specifically for them and even you said it: They are a damage spec that doesn't do enough of it.
It just seems like it's the same 4 or 5 specs every tier, every expansion.
Casual Viewpoint .. Liquid is a team of kids, coming across as entitled and elite, Echo comes across as a team of Adults, who could easily converse with you if met randomly in any Con. Professionalism plays a part in attitude and Echo showed this winning yet again.
I found a lot of respect for Maximum in this discussion. He was upset, but understanding. Why, though, don't people look at how many pulls it took a guild after a nerf, no matter when it happened, and declare them the winner? If Echo killed it within 3 pulls after the nerf but Liquid did it in 2 pulls when they finally woke up, didn't they respond better to the nerf? Of course if any guild just rips a strat from whomever killed the boss first than that's not an appropriate measure.
I have to wonder how badly viewership was affected by the absurd amount of ads Twitch runs now. I tuned into Max's stream at one point and even with a ~90% functional adblocker it was basically unwatchable due to the quality dipping whenever ads got blocked. I don't think the stream went more than 10 minutes tops without a new set of ads, and it was more frequent than that most of the time.
Weird question, so hall of Fame is a guild achievement does everyone in the guild get that title or only the people that were in the 20 man group that got the kill?
if you kill the boss why your in the guild at any time and you have the rep you get the title