Hi Benard, i would like to express my appreciation for your research and video! I am really happy to learn and getting know more about my city rich culture😊 thank you for sharing with us!
Hello. Thank you for such kind words. If you can, please help me share this to your Medanese friends and family as it will empower the community to take action to protect and progress the culture and language.
Fascinating history of the Hokkien in SE Asia! I'm Cantonese but have always wondered about our Southern Chinese cousins' stories & languages. & I love Peranakan cuisine!
@@JuliusTio thanks! Deli’s history is very complex, full with interesting yet somber narratives, but in the end it imparts a unique touch to the identity of its people. I wish more historians cover Deli’s history in a matter-of-fact manner as much of 45-46 persecutions of Malays, Chinese and Indians are neither told nor widely known.
Thank you for such great video! However I'd like to mention the fact that the Tjong brothers and their uncle Cheong Fatt Tze are all Hakkas, not Chiangchiu Hokkien. The brothers came from Songkou, Meixian and Cheong Fatt Tze came from Dabu, Meixian. Tjong and Cheong is actually the same surname 張 but the former follow Dutch romanization and the later English romanization. Although they're Hakka, they use Chiangchiu Hokkien language in public, because it is the lingua france at that time. Also note there are
@@armenrz that was exactly the point. Please note that both Cheongs as well as Thio Tiauw Siat/Cheong Fatt Tze were sin khek from Batavia. Even with their dominant economic influence they did not manage to change the status Quo of Baba Hokkien as the lingua franca. Please also note that Majority of the Chinese population were not Hokkien but instead Teochew and Cantonese, leaving Zhangzhou Hokkiens the smallest yet most influential people. Many other elites of that time were not actually Peranakans. Even though Tjong A Fie’s home is called ‘peranakan house’, he himself is not really considered a Baba. tjong A Fie mansion therefore should neither be authoritative to nor example of Peranakan identity and culture in Deli. Tjong A Fie’s Peranakan second wife was of Teochew descent.
@@armenrz more to add; many of those elite Hakkas were instrumental in promoting ‘speak Guoyu’ campaign by offering free education to local Chinese. They did a lot to unite the chinese community and avoided prolonged clan war (1880s) in Medan, but the speak Mandarin campaign also served as an effort to disrupt the Baba Malay and Baba Hokkien exclusivism between the old peranakans and their connections.
I have to correct you here - sin khek does not mean coolie but simply a new arrival as opposed to one born in Nanyang. You can refer to scholarly writings of Prof Wang Gungwu who was himself born in Indonesia but grew up in Ipoh Malaysia.
@@Brisamars-q1c you will need to read very extensive dutch account of the Sin khek and Lau khek. I agree with you on that, but the coinage of Sin Khek came about during the coolie rush. When indentured is finished they were labelled lau khek. I am 5th gen Sumatran Chinese btw. By the way I did say it is a term to refer to ‘new migrants’ or coolie (either or).
@@bernardlokman5442 I thank you for your explanation. The sections of the video on Penang and the relationship to Medan has given me the understanding of the socio economic landscape and the urbanisation of the island.
@@utubegeronimo7628 Hokkiens and Tamils have very long history living side by side. Many of the old Tamils in Penang and Medan could speak exceptional Baba-Hokkien. The old Port Quanzhou was a multicultural hub full of Persians, Arabs and Indians. In a way, the Hokkiens are more attuned to living beside people of different cultures.
Hi Bernard, thanks a lot for the very informative video! as a person who love history, i really appreciate your effort. It's a bit sad that currently many of young Medanese Chinese use too many loan words in their Hokkien language, we cant blame them, i agree with you about the reason that you mentioned in this video. Another reason is, not all the Medanese Chinese is Hokkien, there are a lot of teochew, hakka, canton, hailokhong, some hailam, hok chiew, heng hua and so on. I guess, all the other fang yan contributes to the currently messed Medanese Hokkien. I was born in Medan but both of my parents are from kampong. Our big family is not Hokkien but Hailokhong. I guess my ancestor is one of the traded coolies worked for the tobacco plantation. I have a Penangite work mate and we can understand each other very well, but there are some words that I think most of Medanese can't understand. Such as "market", Penangite Hokkien for market is "ban san", but in Medan we use "pa sat" (loan word from Malay language which is pasar). Another thing that different for me is, Medanese Hokkien is more traditional and old school, like the way we call older people is more polite. For example "Ah Long Koh", but my Penangite friend just call the name straightly.
Thank you. It is inevitable that Medan Hokkien will become something similar to Baba Malay in Melaka. The young Penangites are very mandarin-ised these days. Back then, I was told that shopkeepers and Hawkers would still refer young Men and Women as Ah-Bah and Ah-Nya. However we still use the term boss/towkay a lot.
@@kenlim4320 I myself have living relatives and Penang great grandaunts from both sides of my family, as well as distant link to one of the figures mentioned in this video. Any of us who have ancestry prior 1900-s in Medan would generally have strong link with Penang.
I am a Batak Tobanese but I have a strong interest in learning more about Chinese culture, especially in North Sumatra. The Chinese community plays a significant role in Medan's identity; without them, Medan would not be the vibrant city it is today. I hope that Chinatown in Medan can become more lively and well-managed, similar to those in major cities in Malaysia. Medan would benefit greatly from having more food stalls like those in Kuala Lumpur. Unfortunately, the government and many of the people in Medan currently struggle to collaborate effectively to make this happen. Thanks for this great video bro, looking forward for the next explanation about Medan Hokkien, thanks.
@@broindraalexius thank you bro. I was quite skeptic about what they did to Kesawan. Although the general kesawan infrastructure has improved, I believe the government did not really understand the cultural dynamics of Old Kesawan. Both of my families have lived in Kesawan region for years. Paternal side only few steps away from Mesjid gang Bengkok. The other few steps away from Jl. Semarang Jl. and Selat Panjang. All the men would go to Pajak Hindu every morning for coffee, koran and gossip. If you don’t bump into your relatives, you’ll probably bump into your friends or family friends. I feel although most locals know that Kesawan is the old Chinatown (before Megamas and even Pasar Baru), the government is not very keen with that narrative, as it is not seen as ‘inclusive’ for modern population. With the long OrBa period, many Chinese have forgotten the past and stopped asking question to our elders. One consolation is that there are more and more non-Chinese visiting Semarang and Selat Panjang. It at least brings some little hope to what seems to be a slow end to our old identity. Chinese New Year used to be so lively. All Kesawan families and clan houses would hold open houses serving free lontong sayur for everyone. But now they are all locked shut, in fear of young thugs outside waiting for pungli and angpau.
@@NicO-cm2xo thank you for your kind words. The dissemination of Peranakan history is a huge frustration which I share along with many people I know, as many Peranakan communities and historical tourist spots are very uninterested in updating their historical references. There are still so much historical archives now accessible, but most people are only interested in narrative which empowers their agenda, be it not relevant anymore. The biggest lies in today’s narrative is that assimilation is the same thing as Peranakan. There are a lot of people who fully assimilated to local culture but are not Peranakan. This is even further muddled by Indonesia’s policy to categorise anyone who’s native born as Peranakans. The history has never been more skewed.
in Malaysia, Peranakan Chinese is never considered as Chinese mix marriage with locals instead Peranakan Chinese is 100% Chinese but their custom adopted the local custom eg they use Bahasa Melayu as their daily conversation, they even have their own version of kebaya which we call kebaya Nyonya which they wear with pride, their cuisine heavily use local spices eg in Penang there’s a famous curry named Curry Kapitan … of course over the years intermarriages may have made Malaysians a bit more wholesome even among Malays … and customs which were the norm 60 or 100 years ago may lose out and replaced with a new custom …
Would dispute that Medn Hokkien is considered low class. I worked for a Medan based company and although not from there, a command of Hokkien is necessary as meetings were all carried out in Hokkien. Our Jakarta colleagues would often be a bit left out.
Thanks Colin. However, most Chinese who are pro-assimilation in Java look down on Medan Chinese. A while ago, I stopped following Java’s Chinese history groups due to their effort in deliberately representing Medan Chinese quite poorly. I myself have experienced discrimination and bullying from them during my highschool days. Most Medanese do not know of their own history, though the language has served itself as a natural mechanism of economic protectionism from Java’s ultra-capitalists. Up until today, they would still have to rely on local partnership to do business in Medan. Jakartans and Surabayans do not see Medan Hokkien as Peranakan language. They instead see it as a ‘sin khek’ language. Ironically, the biggest influx of new Chinese in migrants in early 1900s Java was in Surabaya and Jogjakarta. Many Indonesian Chinese from outside Medan do not understand that speaking Medan Hokkien is not Chinese exclusivism, but rather a remnant of peranakan exclusivism towards those who do not follow the standard and the status quo of local peranakan culture inherited from the elites of the past.
@@bernardlokman5442 I am guessing that you are living outside of Medan (perhaps Java). I am curious if you plan to teach Medan hokkian to your kids since i believe there is not much people speaking Medan hokkian there?
@@FFZH-ch3dtI am not based in Indonesia now. Not planning for children or teaching them Hokkien since mine is quite ‘rujak’ already. I am constantly learning more about Hokkien but I do not believe in puritan version of Hokkien revival. I believe in allowing change and eventually Medan Hokkien will be a bit like Babah Malay in Malaya. I think we will all need to accept the fact that Soeharto’s new order has caused irreparable damage to Medan’s Chinese identity and that we need to live with the wound yet at the same time find pride in what’s remaining.
@@FFZH-ch3dtMedan is not a safe place. Kesawan area, the old Chinatown is undergoing heritage rejuvenation but its history as Chinatown is not acknowledged. Don’t think I will return unless the government and the locals acknowledge our history and heritage.
Thanks Bernard. This answer question in my head for long time as East (now North) Sumatran born Chinese as I noticed almost all of our ancestors were from Chuan Chew as written in tombstones.
@@Kechukia same with mine. Most of my ancestors were from Quanzhou too. Hence we need to correct people when they say Medan Hokkien is the lingua franca due to the majority Hokkiens. Completely untrue.
@@kilanspeaks Hi mate, I was planning to compile continuation of the article, and made Indonesian version, but I am currently very busy with work, study and also my Straits Chinese Manhwa project. I have released a lot of continuation of this narrative on my wordpress (Bernitone). The continuation of this article is the article ‘tracing the lineage if Medan Hokkien language’, and followed by ‘pre-peranakan Chinese of Nusantara’. Thank you for the view! If you can kindly share this so that more Medanese can find it!
Hi Bernard, terima kasih untuk video yang memberikan jawaban atas banyak pertanyaan. Saya lahir di Jakarta, banyak orang Medan yang pindah ke Jakarta dan memang sering menimbulkan rasa "canggung" karena orang Medan rata2 masih berbahasa Hokian dengan sesamanya. Setelah menonton video ini saya jadi jelas latar belakangnya. Bravo!
@@lilac231070 terima kasih atas komennya. Memang orang Medan terkadang ‘stand out’, terutama mereka yang sudah hilang nilai tata krama dan budinya, sehingga sering distigmatisasi. Banyak juga orang dari berbagai kota Sumatra Utara yang melabel mereka sendiri dengan istilah Cina Medan dan sering mencemar nama baik orang Medan. Semoga suatu hari komunitas Cina Medan/cina Deli dapat menghargai budaya kita sendiri dan kembali ke nilai tata krama yang berkebudayaan.
Hi Bernard - Thank you so much for sharing your in-depth research about Medan Hokkien and its relationship with Penang Hokkien. I have always been puzzled by their similarities and couldn't find an explanation until now. I'm a big fan of the Hokkien dialect and find its variants thoroughly fascinating. By the way, I'm from Penang but have been living in the US for 40 years now. I really appreciate your video; it is educational, informative, and the production quality is top-notch!
Thank you uncle Teoh. If you can help share this and perhaps support other movements as well. I believe John Ong and PG Hokkien Podcast is worth supporting. Unfortunately many institutions in Penang, the Clan Temples and the Kongsi-s are not very supportive towards the preservation of Penang Hokkien.
@@bernardlokman5442 I'll definitely share your video. Penang/Medan Hokkien is so unique, it is definitely worth preserving. Hope the institutions in Penang will deemphasize the use of mandarin, instead they should treasure and preserve our Hokkien sooner rather than later 🙏🙏🙏
@@Brisamars-q1c the Singsong nature of Penang Hokkien has very mysterious origin. Even Zhangzhou spoken nowadays are much less dramatic in contrast. Some believe that it might have something to do with the Siam-Kedahan origin substrate.
@@bernardlokman5442 I think it is due to the Mainland Chinese dialect being watered down due to mainstream Hokkien and Putonghua influence and dialect levelling processes because I've heard some Mainland Chinese people who still preserve the singsong nature. Also, people try to speak quickly and swallow their syllables unlike the elder generation, due to not wanting to appear slow or from the village. Perhaps some Penang Hokkien speakers do have the Siam-Kedahan influence, but others seem to have correlates in mainland China. Hope you can do more videos on the similarities and differences between Medan and Penang Hokkien.
In Kuching, Sarawak, we have a street named " Khoo Hun Yeang " St ..... that used to be part of the busy center of the old CBD of Kuching where the Kuching Central Police Station is located. Very interesting history of the Chinese diaspora in SEA.
@@JohnThomas-x7q Khoo Hun Yeang’s father, Khoo Thean Teik was one of leaders of Kean Teik Tong Kongsi or better known as Tua Pek Kong Kongsi. They own hundreds of branches of trading posts in Burma, Phuket, Malaya and mostly likely other parts of Malaya and Sumatra too.
@@bernardlokman5442 Tua Pek Kong Kongsi ? Yes, there is also a Tua Pek Kong Temple at the end of Kuching's Main Bazaar at the junction with Jalan Tunku Abdul Rahman, next to the present Hilton Hotel and the former site of the former Borneo Company Ltd. Thank you for a very interesting video, Bernard.
@@bernardlokman5442 BTW bro, do you happen to have any materials on " the Lanfeng Republic " that was set up in the late 17th century in the Sambas region of Kalimantan ? My family on my mother's side came from Pontianak in the 1910s/1920s, and , from young, I used to listen to stories from my mother about her relatives and family based in ' Kun Tien ' , and their business activities there. I am just intrigued by and about the presence of the Chinese settlers at the north west tip of Borneo. I have found some materials in the past but not much. It seems that Borneon Chinese were a special bunch since they were invited to come over to work in mining and agriculture and contribute to the coffers of the ruling sultans of the day ..... and the British Raj too, and then were given autonomy over their own affairs by the various sultans they allied with but eventually were driven to independence by the Dutch because the Dutch wanted to defeat the Chinese settlers singly without the interference of the Malay sultans. If you have come across such materials, could you please give me some clues ? I am only interested in furthering my own knowledge of how and why I am here and perhaps finding out the true history of our presence here on this island. There had been too much coverup and our history and contributions ignored in the past.
@@JohnThomas-x7q Kean Teik Tong/ Tua Pek Kong Kongsi was a secret society that was more focused on trading monopolies. The clash between Tua Pek Kong and Ghee Hin instigated Penang riot in 1867. Tua Pek Kong as a deity is a mystery. It is believed that Penang’s Tanjung Tokong is the oldest one, but I am skeptic if Toapekkong is of Hakka origin as they claim. I have heard that Kean Teik Tong Kongsi adopted the name of Toa Pek Kong to avoid British effort in suppressing and regulating secret societies by hiding under a religious agenda. I believe that Toa Pek Kong once was veneration of early Chinese Pioneers/ proprietors of first Chinese districts.
@@pereirakelvin67 not necessarily. We should not confuse National, Local and historical identity and culture. Peranakan heritage is not passed down to all society and generations. Many Sinkhek eventually adopted Peranakan culture. A lot of locals Chinese in Medan have also lost their history. Many kids do not know that Medan was a Deli Malay regency. Thus history changes too, and the culture as well. Hence some people inherited more of the older culture than others. For example, most of my family are of Kesawan Chinatown heritage. Since the 70-s and 80-s, serving lontong Medan on first day of Chinese New Year is a long Sino-Malay open house tradition. One of my aunt who was of more recent Hakka lineage claimed that it was not Medan Chinese tradition, but how is it that on one day, visiting four different families of four different clans, they all serve the same dish? Hence not all people inherit the ‘Peranakans’ tradition. Such is also the case with Medanese Acar, originally introduced from Malaya to Medan Chinese. It is a very Malay dish almost exclusively prepared by Chinese in Medan, which also later passed down to Batak and Javanese wives, relatives and kitchen hands.
Thanks, Bernard I finally found the answer to the question where do we come from ? A friend. For many of us tracing where we come from is difficult because of population pressure many of the Chinese graves have been repurposed as dwellings. Usually, they tell you at the Bongpay where they come from. A friend of mine who is researching this bongpay confirms that most of them come from Zhangzou
Thank you for the kind words. I wish there is a cross-strait conference to share information on real Peranakan history. Indonesian Peranakan history is diluted with neo-peranakan movements making pseudo-historic claims and lack focus in pre 1900 history. Many try to justify their belonging solely based on Tionghoa’s contribution for independence. Personally, I am questioning even the need to justify anything, as culturally (old) Peranakans have been a part of local tapestry for centuries, and those who followed the culture and tradition inherits the sense of belonging.
@@bernardlokman5442 Yes I completely agree with you too many brown-nosing and subservient. Trying to please the dominant power. Instead of researching the true contribution that the Chinese made in Indonesia like they were the first to build schools, sugar industry, printing industry and media and film industry. do you know that Peranakan had a wealth of literature before the Indo snuffed it out Nowadays young people are ignorant of their heritage and in a rush to assimilate sad affairs I would like to research the literature of Peranakan especially this guy Kwee Tek Huay.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwee_Tek_Hoay but I lack the resources. Too many people don't know the Indo-Peranakan contributes e immensely to Indo society and the gov chooses to ignore it Hope you make some more of this kind of video and why don't you contribute to peranakan magazine in Spore www.peranakan.org.sg/magazine-archive/
Yeah, Babah-malay literature and movies were all the rage during the early 1900s. I personally wanted to find the trend of the boom in the use of Babah Malay in Nusantara and Malaya. My rough estimate was that Baba malay started to develop around early 1800s. Have you heard of the book called 'Chrita orang yang Chari Selamat'. It was written in Babah Malay and illustrated John Bunyan's Pilgrim's progress in Peranakan style. There was also Zubir Said's account of Peranakan people's mastery in Malay language, as he said that Padang's Babas knew how to sing better Dondang Sayang and recite better Pantun than the locals. Btw I think youtube delete comments when they include internet links, hence I had trouble to find this comment!
@@mrkoplak2011 semua orang tionghoa yang datang sebelum 1890 datang lewat Penang. Jadi Hokkien itu adalah bahasa Babah di Medan, bukan bahasa mayoritas. Lagipula sensus tahun 1930 menunjukkan bahwa kota Medan itu mayoritas orang Konghu.
@@bahayazzz interesting fact: orang Hainam dulunya sering jadi tukang masak untuk kaum Babanyonya dan Belanda, jadi ga heran Nasi Ayam Hainan SP3 dsb. juga menyajikan sayur khas peranakan, yakni acar kacang, sambal udang. Kopitiam juga biasanya yang buka itu org Hainam.
Thanks for your research. I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who is on the other side of the equator but who has some ancestry in Indonesia. Personally, I like ChiangChiew Hokkien and I hope you can preserve it. However, the Tang'ua dialect is not a branch of ChangChiew Hokkien. It is similar to the Hokkien spoken in Singapore/Southern Malaysia. Similarly, some of the peranakan clans from Penang speak Tang'ua and not Changchiew Hokkien. According to Timothy Tye, a Penang Hokkien enthusiast on UA-cam, it was Sinkhek who fled China due to piracy and brought the language to Penang. Most of the Baba/Nyonya in Malacca had already switched to speaking Baba Malay. Also, genetic studies on self-identified Singaporean Peranakan shows that their admixture occurred about 200 years ago, and many of them are of Indonesian origin rather than Malayan. The Penang Baba/Nyonya are unique in their preservation of Hokkien ChiangChiew language, but it may be due to the fact that they married Thai wives and switched to speaking Sinkhek language, and not vice versa. Baba Malay is unique to the Malaccan context, so the Indonesian equivalent would be something like Cina Betawi. Malacca and Penang Peranakan communities actually have different origins, the former being more nativized than the latter. A lot of it is also based on class difference. Peranakan Chinese in Kelantan are not seen as Baba/Nyonya in the same way as the Malaccans are. Some Chinese Indonesians are dumb and arrogant. Just ignore them. Also, the politics of Malaysia/Singapore are different. Some Malaysians/Singaporeans look down on Indonesians, esp the Baba community, so long ago I decided to identify as "Indonesian", rather than "peranakan", even if the area I come from technically did not belong to either Indonesia or Malaysia in the first place.
Hello. Thank you for the detailed reply and appreciation. You will need Tang’Ua context based on history. Back then Amoy was not a cultural centre the dialect would have been quite different. Zone-ing of earlier Haicheng actually is much bigger than the present, reaching out to western shores of amoy bordering with Tong An. That cultural pull from Haicheng itself is not to be confused with Chiangchew as we understand today. In fact, the dialect in the heart of Zhangzhou diaspora such ad Zhangpu is very different linguistically from Penang Hokkien we know today. We need to understand that Zhangzhou vs quanzhou vs amoy today was not the same thing few hundred years ago. The fact that Medhurst’s dictionary based itself on more of inland Zhangzhou eg ‘Li’ instead of ‘Lu’ in early 1800s proved that Haicheng-Tang’ua baba Malay’s influence predated what we know today as Zhangzhou. The reason why it was known as Chiangchew was mostly due to the fact that Yuegang was the main port of Zhangzhou. A bit like how we called Minnan people Hokkien, and how most mainland think Fuzhou rather than Quanzhou when they think of Fujian. If you refer to Thomas-Barclay dictionary, you will see that their Tong An dialect does not correspond with modern Singaporean Hokkien. Singaporean Hokkien has the modern Baba Hokkien substrate such as ‘Ke Po’(busy body), but it was quintessentially modern Quanzhou-centric Amoy dialect. I take Mr. Tye’s take on the Thai diaspora with a grain of salt. Many Haicheng Hokkiens did migrated to Si Thammarat, Songkhla and Pattani. The fiefdom of the area was dominated by Chinese as well as the monarchs. However I do not see them as escaping pirates, since people who traded privately from China during most of 15th-18th century were labelled as Pirates as well. Moreover Burney papers recounted that many of those Siam Chinese were Macao/Canton Chinese. I take their account with skepticism too, but the origin Penang Hokkien is not that far detached from Melaka and Batavia. The dutch did have trade deals with tin mining in Kedah prior to British acquisition of Penang. We must also note that Batavia was the centre of Peranakan culture after Melaka up until 1740. Chinese pogrom later ignited Java war, and I suspect many Dutch Melaka Babas and Chinese from Java would have fled from the epicentre.
And to add for the context of Melaka, by the time of Dutch’s acquisition of Melaka, the Chinese numbered only 300. In a way the cultural pull of Melaka Peranakan is inseparable from the movement of Chinese (or rather forced abductions) to Batavia. The earliest account of what we see as Peranakans were the account of Schouten in Batavia in early 18th century. The men were second generation natives and were wearing a long robe called ‘Kebaya’ (yes, the men). The women were almost all Balinese slaves, as Sundanese and Javanese were not allowed inside the fort. Thus the understanding of what’s Malay and what’s Indonesian was quite grey in the past. Malay was truly spoken by the Baba-s because it was the lingua franca, not because they married Malays. Moreover the concept of ‘Malay’ in British sense, is different from Dutch’s understanding of ‘Malay’. The study of Peranakan history in a holistic manner is still in its infancy, particularly when Indonesia claims that any native born Chinese is Peranakan. However in Raffles census of Java it was clearly stated that Peranakan was a label used for Half Caste Chinese during that time, not even used for Dutch Indo-s or other ethnicities. It became a term such as Jawi, Chitty, Kristang Peranakans due to communities trying to adopt the prestige the descendants of half caste Chinese womens gained in 19th century.
@@bernardlokman5442 Thanks for your quick reply. My response was based on the observation that the Chew clan jetty people and this Penang Nyonya called Aunty Annie both speak with a noticeable Tang'ua accent, which is not the same as the standard Penang Hokkien accent. Hence, Penang Hokkien should not be treated as a monolith. I can't tell if this is the original Tang'ua accent or if the accent somehow shifted later on, but Tang'ua being on the crossroads between Quanzhou and Zhangzhou, probably did sound similar to the way Aunty Annie spoke, i.e. mng instead of mui. The reason why I think Zhangpu sounds different today is because a bunch of Hakka/She people moved in to fill in the gap left by the migrants who fled to Taiwan, Malaysia, etc. Amoy Hokkien is distinct from Tang'ua since it has its own separate evolution. Penang and Medan Hokkien are closest to the Zhangzhou dialect spoken in the Philippines in the 1700s. It was called Chio-Chiu then. Most Tsinoys now speak Quanzhou Hokkien though. So Penang and Medan Hokkien are the direct descendant of the old "Yuegang" dialect, while Tang'ua is its own dialect spoken by a minority of the Penangites. As for Penang Baba Hokkien, I used to have a book of rhymes with an accompanying CD. Unfortunately, I am not linguistically talented enough to make good use of it. I can't locate it currently either. If you could get your hands on one of those, it would help in your research. There might be subtle differences to Penang or Medan Hokkien that have yet to be uncovered.
@@restoftheworld7200 Clan Jetties were not of Peranakan origins. Many people claim to be the oldest migrants but the clearest one would be from those non-Chinese who speak Hokkiens. They would be the ones who passed down the more standard of Penang Hokkien spoken in the past. When I talk about Tang Ua, it’s Tang Ua 300-400 years ago, not the one just one or two centuries. I do not find it plausible mixing the history if modern Singaporean Amoy with old Tong An as they were completely different histories and identities altogether, a bit like pre-Song Putian with post-Song Putian. One was Hokkien and one was pseudo Hokkien-Fuzhou.
@@bernardlokman5442 The British encouraged Malayization or "masuk melayu" so anyone of native ancestry who adopted Islam would be considered Malay in their territories. So, it is well known that Peranakans do not marry Malays. Peranakans in Singapore and Malaysia are usually careful to state that they are native women, and not Malay, due to religious sensitivities. However, I doubt any of them are Malaccan natives at all since they wouldn't be caught dead marrying a Chinese.
@@henrychristian4840 generasi skrang mana mau ke lapo. Klau elu hidupnya di kampung mungkin. Btw. Skrang gk batak aja ada laponya. Cindo jg ada sini ke medan 😂
@@henrychristian4840 nongkrong sama apa? angin. Elu kira semua orng suka nongkrong apa. Elu kira semua orng pemalas apa. Parah. Dari tadi koment lue gk enak bnget.
@@gioaxe4538 kan nyari nya bini yg bisa nyari duit kata sampeyan. Trs peran suami ny sebagai apa ? Bapak rumah tangga? Atau apa? Ya byk contoh hdp d kalangan org yg ngarep istri pinter kerja, istri nya yg bertani beternak, laki nya ngaso d lapo..
Hi Benard, i would like to express my appreciation for your research and video! I am really happy to learn and getting know more about my city rich culture😊 thank you for sharing with us!
Hello. Thank you for such kind words. If you can, please help me share this to your Medanese friends and family as it will empower the community to take action to protect and progress the culture and language.
Fascinating history of the Hokkien in SE Asia! I'm Cantonese but have always wondered about our Southern Chinese cousins' stories & languages. & I love Peranakan cuisine!
love your research! I made a Tjong Yong Hian documentary once and fell in love with the history of Deli.
@@JuliusTio thanks! Deli’s history is very complex, full with interesting yet somber narratives, but in the end it imparts a unique touch to the identity of its people. I wish more historians cover Deli’s history in a matter-of-fact manner as much of 45-46 persecutions of Malays, Chinese and Indians are neither told nor widely known.
Thank you for such great video! However I'd like to mention the fact that the Tjong brothers and their uncle Cheong Fatt Tze are all Hakkas, not Chiangchiu Hokkien. The brothers came from Songkou, Meixian and Cheong Fatt Tze came from Dabu, Meixian. Tjong and Cheong is actually the same surname 張 but the former follow Dutch romanization and the later English romanization. Although they're Hakka, they use Chiangchiu Hokkien language in public, because it is the lingua france at that time. Also note there are
@@armenrz that was exactly the point. Please note that both Cheongs as well as Thio Tiauw Siat/Cheong Fatt Tze were sin khek from Batavia. Even with their dominant economic influence they did not manage to change the status Quo of Baba Hokkien as the lingua franca. Please also note that Majority of the Chinese population were not Hokkien but instead Teochew and Cantonese, leaving Zhangzhou Hokkiens the smallest yet most influential people. Many other elites of that time were not actually Peranakans. Even though Tjong A Fie’s home is called ‘peranakan house’, he himself is not really considered a Baba. tjong A Fie mansion therefore should neither be authoritative to nor example of Peranakan identity and culture in Deli. Tjong A Fie’s Peranakan second wife was of Teochew descent.
@@armenrz more to add; many of those elite Hakkas were instrumental in promoting ‘speak Guoyu’ campaign by offering free education to local Chinese. They did a lot to unite the chinese community and avoided prolonged clan war (1880s) in Medan, but the speak Mandarin campaign also served as an effort to disrupt the Baba Malay and Baba Hokkien exclusivism between the old peranakans and their connections.
fascinating video and very informative, thank you for this.
@@InfernoXV my very pleasure! If you can help spread this to Medan and Indonesian Chinese communities, that would be very much-ly appreciated!
I have to correct you here - sin khek does not mean coolie but simply a new arrival as opposed to one born in Nanyang. You can refer to scholarly writings of Prof Wang Gungwu who was himself born in Indonesia but grew up in Ipoh Malaysia.
@@Brisamars-q1c you will need to read very extensive dutch account of the Sin khek and Lau khek. I agree with you on that, but the coinage of Sin Khek came about during the coolie rush. When indentured is finished they were labelled lau khek. I am 5th gen Sumatran Chinese btw. By the way I did say it is a term to refer to ‘new migrants’ or coolie (either or).
@@bernardlokman5442 I thank you for your explanation. The sections of the video on Penang and the relationship to Medan has given me the understanding of the socio economic landscape and the urbanisation of the island.
Most Hokkien women in my area intermarried with Tamil Indian men.
@@utubegeronimo7628 Hokkiens and Tamils have very long history living side by side. Many of the old Tamils in Penang and Medan could speak exceptional Baba-Hokkien. The old Port Quanzhou was a multicultural hub full of Persians, Arabs and Indians. In a way, the Hokkiens are more attuned to living beside people of different cultures.
Hi Bernard, thanks a lot for the very informative video! as a person who love history, i really appreciate your effort. It's a bit sad that currently many of young Medanese Chinese use too many loan words in their Hokkien language, we cant blame them, i agree with you about the reason that you mentioned in this video. Another reason is, not all the Medanese Chinese is Hokkien, there are a lot of teochew, hakka, canton, hailokhong, some hailam, hok chiew, heng hua and so on. I guess, all the other fang yan contributes to the currently messed Medanese Hokkien.
I was born in Medan but both of my parents are from kampong. Our big family is not Hokkien but Hailokhong. I guess my ancestor is one of the traded coolies worked for the tobacco plantation. I have a Penangite work mate and we can understand each other very well, but there are some words that I think most of Medanese can't understand. Such as "market", Penangite Hokkien for market is "ban san", but in Medan we use "pa sat" (loan word from Malay language which is pasar). Another thing that different for me is, Medanese Hokkien is more traditional and old school, like the way we call older people is more polite. For example "Ah Long Koh", but my Penangite friend just call the name straightly.
Thank you. It is inevitable that Medan Hokkien will become something similar to Baba Malay in Melaka. The young Penangites are very mandarin-ised these days. Back then, I was told that shopkeepers and Hawkers would still refer young Men and Women as Ah-Bah and Ah-Nya. However we still use the term boss/towkay a lot.
20K views! This is way beyond my expectations. Thank you all and universe for bringing this narrative to public attention! 🙏🙏🙏 Kamsia ce-ce.
Thanks for sharing, Bernard... This explains the question I've been asking why Medanese speaks Hokkien exactly like Penang locals. Very informational.
@@kenlim4320 I myself have living relatives and Penang great grandaunts from both sides of my family, as well as distant link to one of the figures mentioned in this video. Any of us who have ancestry prior 1900-s in Medan would generally have strong link with Penang.
I am a Batak Tobanese but I have a strong interest in learning more about Chinese culture, especially in North Sumatra. The Chinese community plays a significant role in Medan's identity; without them, Medan would not be the vibrant city it is today. I hope that Chinatown in Medan can become more lively and well-managed, similar to those in major cities in Malaysia. Medan would benefit greatly from having more food stalls like those in Kuala Lumpur. Unfortunately, the government and many of the people in Medan currently struggle to collaborate effectively to make this happen. Thanks for this great video bro, looking forward for the next explanation about Medan Hokkien, thanks.
@@broindraalexius thank you bro. I was quite skeptic about what they did to Kesawan. Although the general kesawan infrastructure has improved, I believe the government did not really understand the cultural dynamics of Old Kesawan. Both of my families have lived in Kesawan region for years. Paternal side only few steps away from Mesjid gang Bengkok. The other few steps away from Jl. Semarang Jl. and Selat Panjang. All the men would go to Pajak Hindu every morning for coffee, koran and gossip. If you don’t bump into your relatives, you’ll probably bump into your friends or family friends. I feel although most locals know that Kesawan is the old Chinatown (before Megamas and even Pasar Baru), the government is not very keen with that narrative, as it is not seen as ‘inclusive’ for modern population. With the long OrBa period, many Chinese have forgotten the past and stopped asking question to our elders. One consolation is that there are more and more non-Chinese visiting Semarang and Selat Panjang. It at least brings some little hope to what seems to be a slow end to our old identity. Chinese New Year used to be so lively. All Kesawan families and clan houses would hold open houses serving free lontong sayur for everyone. But now they are all locked shut, in fear of young thugs outside waiting for pungli and angpau.
Thanks Bernard for your video indepth research history origin of Hokkien Peranakan, I have learned more than any history book
@@NicO-cm2xo thank you for your kind words. The dissemination of Peranakan history is a huge frustration which I share along with many people I know, as many Peranakan communities and historical tourist spots are very uninterested in updating their historical references. There are still so much historical archives now accessible, but most people are only interested in narrative which empowers their agenda, be it not relevant anymore. The biggest lies in today’s narrative is that assimilation is the same thing as Peranakan. There are a lot of people who fully assimilated to local culture but are not Peranakan. This is even further muddled by Indonesia’s policy to categorise anyone who’s native born as Peranakans. The history has never been more skewed.
in Malaysia, Peranakan Chinese is never considered as Chinese mix marriage with locals instead Peranakan Chinese is 100% Chinese but their custom adopted the local custom eg they use Bahasa Melayu as their daily conversation, they even have their own version of kebaya which we call kebaya Nyonya which they wear with pride, their cuisine heavily use local spices eg in Penang there’s a famous curry named Curry Kapitan … of course over the years intermarriages may have made Malaysians a bit more wholesome even among Malays … and customs which were the norm 60 or 100 years ago may lose out and replaced with a new custom …
Would dispute that Medn Hokkien is considered low class. I worked for a Medan based company and although not from there, a command of Hokkien is necessary as meetings were all carried out in Hokkien. Our Jakarta colleagues would often be a bit left out.
Thanks Colin. However, most Chinese who are pro-assimilation in Java look down on Medan Chinese. A while ago, I stopped following Java’s Chinese history groups due to their effort in deliberately representing Medan Chinese quite poorly. I myself have experienced discrimination and bullying from them during my highschool days. Most Medanese do not know of their own history, though the language has served itself as a natural mechanism of economic protectionism from Java’s ultra-capitalists. Up until today, they would still have to rely on local partnership to do business in Medan. Jakartans and Surabayans do not see Medan Hokkien as Peranakan language. They instead see it as a ‘sin khek’ language. Ironically, the biggest influx of new Chinese in migrants in early 1900s Java was in Surabaya and Jogjakarta. Many Indonesian Chinese from outside Medan do not understand that speaking Medan Hokkien is not Chinese exclusivism, but rather a remnant of peranakan exclusivism towards those who do not follow the standard and the status quo of local peranakan culture inherited from the elites of the past.
@@bernardlokman5442 I am guessing that you are living outside of Medan (perhaps Java). I am curious if you plan to teach Medan hokkian to your kids since i believe there is not much people speaking Medan hokkian there?
@@FFZH-ch3dtI am not based in Indonesia now. Not planning for children or teaching them Hokkien since mine is quite ‘rujak’ already. I am constantly learning more about Hokkien but I do not believe in puritan version of Hokkien revival. I believe in allowing change and eventually Medan Hokkien will be a bit like Babah Malay in Malaya. I think we will all need to accept the fact that Soeharto’s new order has caused irreparable damage to Medan’s Chinese identity and that we need to live with the wound yet at the same time find pride in what’s remaining.
@@FFZH-ch3dtMedan is not a safe place. Kesawan area, the old Chinatown is undergoing heritage rejuvenation but its history as Chinatown is not acknowledged. Don’t think I will return unless the government and the locals acknowledge our history and heritage.
@@bernardlokman5442 Got it! Thanks for sharing this. Wishing you the best and will keep watching your channel.
Tks.. great video.
Thanks Bernard. This answer question in my head for long time as East (now North) Sumatran born Chinese as I noticed almost all of our ancestors were from Chuan Chew as written in tombstones.
@@Kechukia same with mine. Most of my ancestors were from Quanzhou too. Hence we need to correct people when they say Medan Hokkien is the lingua franca due to the majority Hokkiens. Completely untrue.
Hey Bernard, are you still around? Please upload more videos when you can. Cheers! 🍻
@@kilanspeaks Hi mate, I was planning to compile continuation of the article, and made Indonesian version, but I am currently very busy with work, study and also my Straits Chinese Manhwa project. I have released a lot of continuation of this narrative on my wordpress (Bernitone). The continuation of this article is the article ‘tracing the lineage if Medan Hokkien language’, and followed by ‘pre-peranakan Chinese of Nusantara’. Thank you for the view! If you can kindly share this so that more Medanese can find it!
Hi Bernard, terima kasih untuk video yang memberikan jawaban atas banyak pertanyaan. Saya lahir di Jakarta, banyak orang Medan yang pindah ke Jakarta dan memang sering menimbulkan rasa "canggung" karena orang Medan rata2 masih berbahasa Hokian dengan sesamanya. Setelah menonton video ini saya jadi jelas latar belakangnya. Bravo!
@@lilac231070 terima kasih atas komennya. Memang orang Medan terkadang ‘stand out’, terutama mereka yang sudah hilang nilai tata krama dan budinya, sehingga sering distigmatisasi. Banyak juga orang dari berbagai kota Sumatra Utara yang melabel mereka sendiri dengan istilah Cina Medan dan sering mencemar nama baik orang Medan. Semoga suatu hari komunitas Cina Medan/cina Deli dapat menghargai budaya kita sendiri dan kembali ke nilai tata krama yang berkebudayaan.
Hi Bernard - Thank you so much for sharing your in-depth research about Medan Hokkien and its relationship with Penang Hokkien. I have always been puzzled by their similarities and couldn't find an explanation until now. I'm a big fan of the Hokkien dialect and find its variants thoroughly fascinating. By the way, I'm from Penang but have been living in the US for 40 years now. I really appreciate your video; it is educational, informative, and the production quality is top-notch!
Thank you uncle Teoh. If you can help share this and perhaps support other movements as well. I believe John Ong and PG Hokkien Podcast is worth supporting. Unfortunately many institutions in Penang, the Clan Temples and the Kongsi-s are not very supportive towards the preservation of Penang Hokkien.
@@bernardlokman5442 I'll definitely share your video. Penang/Medan Hokkien is so unique, it is definitely worth preserving. Hope the institutions in Penang will deemphasize the use of mandarin, instead they should treasure and preserve our Hokkien sooner rather than later 🙏🙏🙏
There is a nice sing-song quality to Penang Hokkien. I was in Quanzhou last year and could barely understand the real Hokkien there.
@@Brisamars-q1c the Singsong nature of Penang Hokkien has very mysterious origin. Even Zhangzhou spoken nowadays are much less dramatic in contrast. Some believe that it might have something to do with the Siam-Kedahan origin substrate.
@@bernardlokman5442 I think it is due to the Mainland Chinese dialect being watered down due to mainstream Hokkien and Putonghua influence and dialect levelling processes because I've heard some Mainland Chinese people who still preserve the singsong nature. Also, people try to speak quickly and swallow their syllables unlike the elder generation, due to not wanting to appear slow or from the village. Perhaps some Penang Hokkien speakers do have the Siam-Kedahan influence, but others seem to have correlates in mainland China. Hope you can do more videos on the similarities and differences between Medan and Penang Hokkien.
In Kuching, Sarawak, we have a street named " Khoo Hun Yeang " St ..... that used to be part of the busy center of the old CBD of Kuching where the Kuching Central Police Station is located. Very interesting history of the Chinese diaspora in SEA.
@@JohnThomas-x7q Khoo Hun Yeang’s father, Khoo Thean Teik was one of leaders of Kean Teik Tong Kongsi or better known as Tua Pek Kong Kongsi. They own hundreds of branches of trading posts in Burma, Phuket, Malaya and mostly likely other parts of Malaya and Sumatra too.
@@bernardlokman5442 Tua Pek Kong Kongsi ? Yes, there is also a Tua Pek Kong Temple at the end of Kuching's Main Bazaar at the junction with Jalan Tunku Abdul Rahman, next to the present Hilton Hotel and the former site of the former Borneo Company Ltd. Thank you for a very interesting video, Bernard.
@@bernardlokman5442 BTW bro, do you happen to have any materials on " the Lanfeng Republic " that was set up in the late 17th century in the Sambas region of Kalimantan ? My family on my mother's side came from Pontianak in the 1910s/1920s, and , from young, I used to listen to stories from my mother about her relatives and family based in ' Kun Tien ' , and their business activities there. I am just intrigued by and about the presence of the Chinese settlers at the north west tip of Borneo. I have found some materials in the past but not much. It seems that Borneon Chinese were a special bunch since they were invited to come over to work in mining and agriculture and contribute to the coffers of the ruling sultans of the day ..... and the British Raj too, and then were given autonomy over their own affairs by the various sultans they allied with but eventually were driven to independence by the Dutch because the Dutch wanted to defeat the Chinese settlers singly without the interference of the Malay sultans. If you have come across such materials, could you please give me some clues ? I am only interested in furthering my own knowledge of how and why I am here and perhaps finding out the true history of our presence here on this island. There had been too much coverup and our history and contributions ignored in the past.
@@JohnThomas-x7q Kean Teik Tong/ Tua Pek Kong Kongsi was a secret society that was more focused on trading monopolies. The clash between Tua Pek Kong and Ghee Hin instigated Penang riot in 1867. Tua Pek Kong as a deity is a mystery. It is believed that Penang’s Tanjung Tokong is the oldest one, but I am skeptic if Toapekkong is of Hakka origin as they claim. I have heard that Kean Teik Tong Kongsi adopted the name of Toa Pek Kong to avoid British effort in suppressing and regulating secret societies by hiding under a religious agenda. I believe that Toa Pek Kong once was veneration of early Chinese Pioneers/ proprietors of first Chinese districts.
Wow, proud to have hokkien blood ❤
@@pereirakelvin67 It’s good to have healthy dose of pride, but let’s not also remember that Medan Hokkien belongs to the locals, not just Hokkiens.
@bernardlokman5442 very educational bro love it. But now sinkhek and peranakan already blend into the local.
@@pereirakelvin67 not necessarily. We should not confuse National, Local and historical identity and culture. Peranakan heritage is not passed down to all society and generations. Many Sinkhek eventually adopted Peranakan culture. A lot of locals Chinese in Medan have also lost their history. Many kids do not know that Medan was a Deli Malay regency. Thus history changes too, and the culture as well. Hence some people inherited more of the older culture than others. For example, most of my family are of Kesawan Chinatown heritage. Since the 70-s and 80-s, serving lontong Medan on first day of Chinese New Year is a long Sino-Malay open house tradition. One of my aunt who was of more recent Hakka lineage claimed that it was not Medan Chinese tradition, but how is it that on one day, visiting four different families of four different clans, they all serve the same dish? Hence not all people inherit the ‘Peranakans’ tradition. Such is also the case with Medanese Acar, originally introduced from Malaya to Medan Chinese. It is a very Malay dish almost exclusively prepared by Chinese in Medan, which also later passed down to Batak and Javanese wives, relatives and kitchen hands.
Thanks, Bernard I finally found the answer to the question where do we come from ? A friend. For many of us tracing where we come from is difficult because of population pressure many of the Chinese graves have been repurposed as dwellings. Usually, they tell you at the Bongpay where they come from. A friend of mine who is researching this bongpay confirms that most of them come from Zhangzou
Thank you for the kind words. I wish there is a cross-strait conference to share information on real Peranakan history. Indonesian Peranakan history is diluted with neo-peranakan movements making pseudo-historic claims and lack focus in pre 1900 history. Many try to justify their belonging solely based on Tionghoa’s contribution for independence. Personally, I am questioning even the need to justify anything, as culturally (old) Peranakans have been a part of local tapestry for centuries, and those who followed the culture and tradition inherits the sense of belonging.
@@bernardlokman5442 Yes I completely agree with you too many brown-nosing and subservient. Trying to please the dominant power. Instead of researching the true contribution that the Chinese made in Indonesia like they were the first to build schools, sugar industry, printing industry and media and film industry. do you know that Peranakan had a wealth of literature before the Indo snuffed it out Nowadays young people are ignorant of their heritage and in a rush to assimilate sad affairs I would like to research the literature of Peranakan especially this guy Kwee Tek Huay.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwee_Tek_Hoay but I lack the resources. Too many people don't know the Indo-Peranakan contributes e immensely to Indo society and the gov chooses to ignore it Hope you make some more of this kind of video and why don't you contribute to peranakan magazine in Spore www.peranakan.org.sg/magazine-archive/
Yeah, Babah-malay literature and movies were all the rage during the early 1900s. I personally wanted to find the trend of the boom in the use of Babah Malay in Nusantara and Malaya. My rough estimate was that Baba malay started to develop around early 1800s. Have you heard of the book called 'Chrita orang yang Chari Selamat'. It was written in Babah Malay and illustrated John Bunyan's Pilgrim's progress in Peranakan style. There was also Zubir Said's account of Peranakan people's mastery in Malay language, as he said that Padang's Babas knew how to sing better Dondang Sayang and recite better Pantun than the locals. Btw I think youtube delete comments when they include internet links, hence I had trouble to find this comment!
cuma di medan, semua warga keturunan tionghua mau dia suku apa berbahasa hokkian :) aku yg suku hainan aja kaga bisa bahasa suku sendiri hahaha
@@mrkoplak2011 semua orang tionghoa yang datang sebelum 1890 datang lewat Penang. Jadi Hokkien itu adalah bahasa Babah di Medan, bukan bahasa mayoritas. Lagipula sensus tahun 1930 menunjukkan bahwa kota Medan itu mayoritas orang Konghu.
@@bernardlokman5442 ohya, benar rata2 temen aku orang konghu, kalo tiociu banyak dii kota binjai
Sama. Sy juga suku hainan di medan. Haha
@@bahayazzz interesting fact: orang Hainam dulunya sering jadi tukang masak untuk kaum Babanyonya dan Belanda, jadi ga heran Nasi Ayam Hainan SP3 dsb. juga menyajikan sayur khas peranakan, yakni acar kacang, sambal udang. Kopitiam juga biasanya yang buka itu org Hainam.
Bagus...buat semua asal usul leluhur orang Medan suku Tionghoa 👍🏼
Thanks for your research. I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who is on the other side of the equator but who has some ancestry in Indonesia. Personally, I like ChiangChiew Hokkien and I hope you can preserve it. However, the Tang'ua dialect is not a branch of ChangChiew Hokkien. It is similar to the Hokkien spoken in Singapore/Southern Malaysia. Similarly, some of the peranakan clans from Penang speak Tang'ua and not Changchiew Hokkien. According to Timothy Tye, a Penang Hokkien enthusiast on UA-cam, it was Sinkhek who fled China due to piracy and brought the language to Penang. Most of the Baba/Nyonya in Malacca had already switched to speaking Baba Malay. Also, genetic studies on self-identified Singaporean Peranakan shows that their admixture occurred about 200 years ago, and many of them are of Indonesian origin rather than Malayan. The Penang Baba/Nyonya are unique in their preservation of Hokkien ChiangChiew language, but it may be due to the fact that they married Thai wives and switched to speaking Sinkhek language, and not vice versa. Baba Malay is unique to the Malaccan context, so the Indonesian equivalent would be something like Cina Betawi. Malacca and Penang Peranakan communities actually have different origins, the former being more nativized than the latter. A lot of it is also based on class difference. Peranakan Chinese in Kelantan are not seen as Baba/Nyonya in the same way as the Malaccans are.
Some Chinese Indonesians are dumb and arrogant. Just ignore them. Also, the politics of Malaysia/Singapore are different. Some Malaysians/Singaporeans look down on Indonesians, esp the Baba community, so long ago I decided to identify as "Indonesian", rather than "peranakan", even if the area I come from technically did not belong to either Indonesia or Malaysia in the first place.
Hello. Thank you for the detailed reply and appreciation. You will need Tang’Ua context based on history. Back then Amoy was not a cultural centre the dialect would have been quite different. Zone-ing of earlier Haicheng actually is much bigger than the present, reaching out to western shores of amoy bordering with Tong An. That cultural pull from Haicheng itself is not to be confused with Chiangchew as we understand today. In fact, the dialect in the heart of Zhangzhou diaspora such ad Zhangpu is very different linguistically from Penang Hokkien we know today. We need to understand that Zhangzhou vs quanzhou vs amoy today was not the same thing few hundred years ago. The fact that Medhurst’s dictionary based itself on more of inland Zhangzhou eg ‘Li’ instead of ‘Lu’ in early 1800s proved that Haicheng-Tang’ua baba Malay’s influence predated what we know today as Zhangzhou. The reason why it was known as Chiangchew was mostly due to the fact that Yuegang was the main port of Zhangzhou. A bit like how we called Minnan people Hokkien, and how most mainland think Fuzhou rather than Quanzhou when they think of Fujian. If you refer to Thomas-Barclay dictionary, you will see that their Tong An dialect does not correspond with modern Singaporean Hokkien. Singaporean Hokkien has the modern Baba Hokkien substrate such as ‘Ke Po’(busy body), but it was quintessentially modern Quanzhou-centric Amoy dialect. I take Mr. Tye’s take on the Thai diaspora with a grain of salt. Many Haicheng Hokkiens did migrated to Si Thammarat, Songkhla and Pattani. The fiefdom of the area was dominated by Chinese as well as the monarchs. However I do not see them as escaping pirates, since people who traded privately from China during most of 15th-18th century were labelled as Pirates as well. Moreover Burney papers recounted that many of those Siam Chinese were Macao/Canton Chinese. I take their account with skepticism too, but the origin Penang Hokkien is not that far detached from Melaka and Batavia. The dutch did have trade deals with tin mining in Kedah prior to British acquisition of Penang. We must also note that Batavia was the centre of Peranakan culture after Melaka up until 1740. Chinese pogrom later ignited Java war, and I suspect many Dutch Melaka Babas and Chinese from Java would have fled from the epicentre.
And to add for the context of Melaka, by the time of Dutch’s acquisition of Melaka, the Chinese numbered only 300. In a way the cultural pull of Melaka Peranakan is inseparable from the movement of Chinese (or rather forced abductions) to Batavia. The earliest account of what we see as Peranakans were the account of Schouten in Batavia in early 18th century. The men were second generation natives and were wearing a long robe called ‘Kebaya’ (yes, the men). The women were almost all Balinese slaves, as Sundanese and Javanese were not allowed inside the fort. Thus the understanding of what’s Malay and what’s Indonesian was quite grey in the past. Malay was truly spoken by the Baba-s because it was the lingua franca, not because they married Malays. Moreover the concept of ‘Malay’ in British sense, is different from Dutch’s understanding of ‘Malay’. The study of Peranakan history in a holistic manner is still in its infancy, particularly when Indonesia claims that any native born Chinese is Peranakan. However in Raffles census of Java it was clearly stated that Peranakan was a label used for Half Caste Chinese during that time, not even used for Dutch Indo-s or other ethnicities. It became a term such as Jawi, Chitty, Kristang Peranakans due to communities trying to adopt the prestige the descendants of half caste Chinese womens gained in 19th century.
@@bernardlokman5442 Thanks for your quick reply. My response was based on the observation that the Chew clan jetty people and this Penang Nyonya called Aunty Annie both speak with a noticeable Tang'ua accent, which is not the same as the standard Penang Hokkien accent. Hence, Penang Hokkien should not be treated as a monolith. I can't tell if this is the original Tang'ua accent or if the accent somehow shifted later on, but Tang'ua being on the crossroads between Quanzhou and Zhangzhou, probably did sound similar to the way Aunty Annie spoke, i.e. mng instead of mui.
The reason why I think Zhangpu sounds different today is because a bunch of Hakka/She people moved in to fill in the gap left by the migrants who fled to Taiwan, Malaysia, etc. Amoy Hokkien is distinct from Tang'ua since it has its own separate evolution. Penang and Medan Hokkien are closest to the Zhangzhou dialect spoken in the Philippines in the 1700s. It was called Chio-Chiu then. Most Tsinoys now speak Quanzhou Hokkien though. So Penang and Medan Hokkien are the direct descendant of the old "Yuegang" dialect, while Tang'ua is its own dialect spoken by a minority of the Penangites.
As for Penang Baba Hokkien, I used to have a book of rhymes with an accompanying CD. Unfortunately, I am not linguistically talented enough to make good use of it. I can't locate it currently either. If you could get your hands on one of those, it would help in your research. There might be subtle differences to Penang or Medan Hokkien that have yet to be uncovered.
@@restoftheworld7200 Clan Jetties were not of Peranakan origins. Many people claim to be the oldest migrants but the clearest one would be from those non-Chinese who speak Hokkiens. They would be the ones who passed down the more standard of Penang Hokkien spoken in the past. When I talk about Tang Ua, it’s Tang Ua 300-400 years ago, not the one just one or two centuries. I do not find it plausible mixing the history if modern Singaporean Amoy with old Tong An as they were completely different histories and identities altogether, a bit like pre-Song Putian with post-Song Putian. One was Hokkien and one was pseudo Hokkien-Fuzhou.
@@bernardlokman5442 The British encouraged Malayization or "masuk melayu" so anyone of native ancestry who adopted Islam would be considered Malay in their territories. So, it is well known that Peranakans do not marry Malays. Peranakans in Singapore and Malaysia are usually careful to state that they are native women, and not Malay, due to religious sensitivities. However, I doubt any of them are Malaccan natives at all since they wouldn't be caught dead marrying a Chinese.
Saya batak pengen dpt istri cindo yg pintar cari duit dan hitung duit 😂
Trs abang tinggal santai d lapo ya bang.
@@henrychristian4840 generasi skrang mana mau ke lapo. Klau elu hidupnya di kampung mungkin. Btw. Skrang gk batak aja ada laponya. Cindo jg ada sini ke medan 😂
@@gioaxe4538 trs yg zaman now batak cow maunya ngapain. Nongkrong d coffee shop main ML? Istri yg cari duit.
@@henrychristian4840 nongkrong sama apa? angin. Elu kira semua orng suka nongkrong apa. Elu kira semua orng pemalas apa. Parah.
Dari tadi koment lue gk enak bnget.
@@gioaxe4538 kan nyari nya bini yg bisa nyari duit kata sampeyan. Trs peran suami ny sebagai apa ? Bapak rumah tangga? Atau apa? Ya byk contoh hdp d kalangan org yg ngarep istri pinter kerja, istri nya yg bertani beternak, laki nya ngaso d lapo..
very interesting. thank you for your efforts and research.