Talks with OMA K Series turntable designer Richard Krebs - Part 2
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2023
- The second of a 3-part conversation with OMA's K Series turntable designer and engineer Richard Krebs, conducted in front of a live audience at the Munich 2023 High End Audio Show.
The K5 Turntable from OMA is the little brother to the K3. K5 shares all the same features as K3 in a smaller, more accessible package. - Наука та технологія
This is truly next level audio engineering. This is what happens when you look around and think the best is not good enough. Creating something that is a game changer, that is legacy engineering, must be a fantastic experience. Thank you for the video.
Thank you for your kind comment!
One must clear one’s mind to truly hear.
Another brilliant video - thanks for sharing.
Outstanding.
Isn't it amazing to have real engineers in the room to explain the complexity of what they are doing in simple terms - the analogies of the brick on the freight train and the rubber band between 2 minutes hands made a ton of sense to me. While this table is out of my price range, I can only hope there is some trickle down technology that comes to a table for $20-25k. Having heard many of OMA's products, I can tell you that Jonathan works with the best designers, engineers, and craftspeople in the world - these products are truly exceptional and blow just about everything else away!
Thanks so much for the kind words, James!
Which audio technica cartridge are you using?
Would Richard design a tonearm. What’s his thoughts on tonearm design.
Very interesting, incredible engineering🔩
Loveit loveit
you explain this matter so well! Physics and Mathematics and Simplicity. horribly beautiful project of a record player and I got to experience it in Munich. Wish you both and the teams all the best that can be gathered in technology! keep it up
Would these same principles/concepts translate to designing a CD transport? Would be interesting if OMA / Richard explored this in the future....
There's no stylus drag on a cd transport
These guys are proud of their baby, as they should be. I wish I could hear one of these, if not afford one in the future. Keep analog alive!
Thanks for the vid.
Great news, that the K3 technology can trickle over to making more accurate and reliable cutting lathes.
Perhaps Mr. Schroeder can improve upon the cutting arm, which uses, I think, a threaded metal worm drive to advance the arm, and someone else to improve the vinyl pressing machine?
'Promosm'
You're obviously using a ThinGap LSI-51 motor. Is it the -12 or the -25 version? BTW, it's not the most powerful motor being used in a turntable. The VPI HW40 uses a ThinGap TG231 which is 500W. Actually, using a high power motor is self defeating and the platter only needs ~50mW once it is up to speed.
why do you say that?
@@weatheranddarkness Using a massive motor becomes self defeating at some point as the normal operating torque is such a small fraction of the max torque the voltages at normal operation will be minimal and the effective PWM resolution will start shrinking accordingly, making speed stability in the absence of any outside disturbance more difficult. VPI uses a 500W ThinGap motor with PWM running at 36VDC and 12 bit resolution. The voltage adjustment step becomes 36/4096=8.8mV and at normal operation, the voltage needed for 33 RPM is ~300mVPP or 34 steps. Each step represents a ~3% change from normal voltage so the effective resolution shrinks to ~5 bits.
@@mintsoda1157 setting aside those elements first, I was also trying to ask how are you so sure you know which motor they are using? LIke, what makes you so positive that they are specifically using a ThinGap LSI-51? How are you deducing such a specific?
@@weatheranddarkness From their descriptions in the videos (motor is 2 pcs, stator and rotor), other users and ThinGap's reputation for high tech coreless BLDC motors, it is a safe bet they are using a ThinGap motor. TG is used in VPI's turntable as well as Caliburn and others. As to the specific model, their spec sheet shows 18 poles; the only TG motor with 18 poles is the LSI-51.
BTW, stating that the next cheapest device that uses these motors cost $80M is a ridiculous thing to say. First of all, the statement is false. Secondly, who cares what something else (that is unrelated) costs? Is this some kind of appeal to authority? If I manufacture machine screws and they use them in the space shuttle program, does that somehow elevate my products to some new (higher) level? Are they "space age" technology now? Marketing BS at its best.
@minisoda1157 Here's Richard Krebs' response in regards to your comment: "The OMA K3 and K5 TTs do not use Thin Gap motors. They do not meet our requirements."
The elephant in the room here, the unasked question is how good do turntables have to be to give us pleasure. I have no quibble with trying to make things better, trying to improve existing technology. But what does this new, and in my opinion, over-engineered turntable offer to the vast majority of vinyl listeners? And I’m not even talking about price. Is this the best turntable in the world? Who knows? Does it compare with the uber priced Tech Das that has gotten superlative reviews? Who knows? Are we really doing the public a favor by offering this advanced technology when, in the great majority of cases, most listeners would not be able to tell the difference in a double blind test? This has been illustrated countless times on the internet and, almost inevitably, listeners cannot tell the difference between a high priced turntable and a moderately priced one. For Gods sake- watch the blind study of the violinists who preferred an inexpensive violin over a Stradivarius. Many professionals couldn’t even identify whether they were playing their own violin or not!
I own a Rega P6 which sounds perfectly fine to me. I get tremendous pleasure out of it. I have owned a table three times the price of the Rega and I can honestly say, I couldn’t hear much of a difference, certainly not a difference that would justify the elevated price. Talk about constant speed and stylus drag all you want. I submit the vast majority can’t hear the difference.
When I think of my dad many years ago listening to music on his basement console and homemade speakers, it seemed to me, he enjoyed listening immensely. He had no knowledge of VTA, SRA, azimuth.But he enjoyed the music regardless. How does one measure pleasure? Did he enjoy the experience less because his system was not as sophisticated as many of our overengineered turntables today? Or because he did not have footers for his cables or cables that cost thousands of dollars a foot? I would argue he enjoyed it more because he wasn't obsessed with GETTING EVERYTHING RIGHT, with achieving perfection. He just listened to the music and at times seemed transfixed. Who could blame him for that?
Advancing the state of the art in any field of endeavor is a worthwhile pursuit. The designers will have learned a tremendous amount about what works and, most importantly, what doesn't. I'm sure the engineer is aware that the customer base is tiny for this product. But that was not the purpose for this effort. I'm sure also that many very useful patents have come from this effort. Some of these may be so advantageous that table manufacturers will want to pay a licensing fee per table they sell. A big sized table manufacturer may pay a large sum to have exclusive rights to the patents and technology.
With the knowledge gained through this effort, the engineers (and sales) cold develop a sellable product, one that incorporates some of the advances made developing this prototype. I don't think this was the purpose.
These are only a few of the reasons why advanced development is a very worthwhile effort.
You really didn’t address my main point. How “advanced” do turntables have to be to give one pleasure? How valuable is this advanced technology when the vast majority of listeners will not hear or be sensitive to the “enhanced sound” that this technology offer? At what point do we stop this craziness and leave well enough alone? As far as I’m concerned, this push, at least with turntables to achieve the PERFECT
sound, far from giving us more pleasure, is on an elemental level, distracting. We can no longer enjoy the music without listening for imperfections.
Surely everyone has their own opinions about whether this new technology adds anything substantive to their listening experience. I’m simple expressing MY opinion that, at least with turntables, we’ve crossed the line needlessly in trying to achieve some sort of “perfect” sound.
I’m not against advanced technology in other fields like reducing our carbon footprint, new types of energy, space travel, advances in medicine. There are invite ways we can make people’s lives better by advancing technology. But as far as turntables go, I say “enough is enough”.
@@ericlubow4354 Nah, you just have a crap attitude. The limits of technology should be pushed if people want that. They want to spend their time on this. So be it.
@@ericlubow4354 When I got into vinyl I stole my dad's old gear that had sat in storage for years, not great stuff by any degree, and I remember it was an absolute joy blasting some Godspeed You! Black Emperor record I'd just bought. So advanced doesn't have a whole lot to do with pleasure so long as it allows the music to reach you in a meaningful way. Kinda like with your dad there.
If I had to choose between my meager Lenco and my records, and some perfect system and listening to test records and Steely Dan all day, I'd take my stuff in a heartbeat. But of course that's not a choice anybody has to make, because the more visceral pleasure and excellent reproduction aren't mutually excluding, not for me anyway. And I'm sure these guys are very passionate about music, so if they wanna make it as good as they can, then why not. Conversely, if you feel your PR6 is all you could conceivably desire, then I think you're pretty well set!
@@ericlubow4354 not very, is the short answer. Probably the floor for good sound that nobody would turn their nose up at (or at least nobody with a normal person size ego ) will cost you 5-600 dollars on the used market. New production stuff of equivalent manufacturing quality will cost you maybe 600 and up. That should get you a turntable, arm and cartridge. If you have a receiver with a built in phono stage there's some uncontrollable variability there, a good sounding stand alone one probably starts around 250. But really playing records can be fun on a TT you got for 100, and a vintage receiver you found on the street. No you won't have a diamond cantilever moving coil- silver wound SUT- 10Kg platter- with quartz locked waveform generating powersupply- for that price, but if that's your floor for "pleasure" I think that's a you problem.
The turntable we're talking about here is playing in the next realm of diminishing returns over and above the usual 'high end' and has nothing to do with the threshold for pleasure. I can't hold it against anyone for shooting for the moon. If the exact technologies can't trickle down, the lessons may still. Some of them however will be so contingent that they are harder to apply on devices without very very similar arrangements.
I think really you should reframe your question to be about personal choice, where do YOU stop this craziness and leave well enough alone?
A Linn LP12 is one of the most low tech devices on the planet. It's not about tech levels.