What to Do With a Flat Lot With an Abundance of Water?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
- Students of Geoff’s Online Permaculture Design Course have question-and-answer sessions where Geoff fields a number of questions every week and answers them via videos. This question was pulled from the 2021 collection. For an in-depth dive into all things permaculture, check out the free Masterclass www.discoverpe...
Question
I know the course will get to this later, but there is so much talk in permaculture about slope and swales, what do you do if you have a flat lot with an abundance of water?
Key Takeaways
Nothing is perfectly flat, but anything can have swales or canals moved around through it. The great thing about flattish land is that it much more usable. Deeper swales could turn into the little canals to become more like chinampas. The extra material from digging the swale will create a higher mound, which will drain better. The real disadvantage to flat land is there is no head pressure, but really, it’s just a matter of creating a solution from the problem.
To support us in making more videos:
► Sign up for our newsletter and the Permaculture Circle-Geoff's curated collection of 100+ free videos: start.geofflaw...
► Like us on Facebook: / geofflawtononline
► Follow us on Instagram: / geofflawtononline
► Subscribe to our UA-cam channel: / @discoverpermaculture
► And most importantly, enjoy your permaculture journey!
About Geoff:
Geoff is a world-renowned permaculture consultant, designer, and teacher that has established demonstration sites that function as education centers in all the world's major climates. Geoff has dedicated his life to spreading permaculture design across the globe and inspiring people to take care of the earth, each other, and to return the surplus.
About Permaculture:
Permaculture is conscious, intentional design in which diverse, stable and resilient ecosystems are assimilated to help people provide their food, energy, shelter, and other needs in a sustainable way, abusing neither the planet nor the humans relying on it. Permaculture focuses on a variety of topics, including agriculture, forestry, water harvesting, renewable energy, eco-building, waste management, animal systems, economics, technology, & community development.
#permaculture #permaculturedesign #swale
I thought this was a subject for me: I live in the flat country, the Netherlands (not Holland, but the Eastern part). I have only an allotment garden, so large earthworks a.a. are impossible. But I think I did well starting to dig a pit (a pond, but small and deep) to reach ground-water level. After a rainstorm there's water in it, but after some dry summer days there isn't. Still the water is close under the ground and the water-mint (Mentha aquatica) I planted at the bottom is doing well!
The soil coming out of that pit now forms a small hill at the side, so now my garden is not really flat anymore.
The problem is the solution, everytime. Love it!
Our land is generally flat with some swales already there. We created contour berms and pits and then covered it with mulch and ground over plants. Now things grow like magic.
That's interesting Bryce! I'd be curious to learn more about where you started and what you've done to improve things. Send me a message! I don't see a way to contact you other than to comment :)
Great solution for Florida wetlands 👍🏻
Thank you. Now I know what to do on my small plot.
I love the work that Geoff Lawton is doing and there are very few times we disagree. compost tea being on of them... but my advice would be to take a look at the netherlands. granted the soil structure is somewhat unique but the land is not only flat it is perfectly level.. becuse of the high water level (or low land level, it is below sea level after all) most trees do not grow on some farmlands there because it would block oxygen to the roots. some examted species like willow you will see a lot but mostly it is grass. grass and grass with water chanels in between only 20cm below the soil level. combine that with 850 mm of rainfall a year you have a lot of potential issues. however, when taken care of properly diverse grassfields can produce enormous amounts of biomass that can be used to feed livestock.even though the natherlands is extremely productive it's not a sustainable system and could benefit immensely from permaculture.
Always wondered how you could use swales on 'Flatter' land. This seems like an awesome idea to have a river/pond in your swale.
"Nothing's perfectly flat unless you're in holland of course"
-laughs in dutch 😂😂
No chanampas though
Living in Holland I was really interested in this topic. I only have a small plot of land and was not very sure how to approach this.
Thanks for the info
The OG permafarmer himself! You are the GoAt my dude!
Cool video, I love your energy 😁
Dig holes, ponds and reservoirs lots of them
Excellent video response, helped me tremendously. Thank you! 🌻
I actually have a property and I'm just observing the flow if energy through the land and it's perfect I'm going to build in a canyon with full sun and a view and there's a good acre or even 2 of flat land in the canyon
Beware of monsoons in the gullys and canyons; flash flooding can sneak up on you.
River valleys are about as flat as a natural area as there is, and they grow plants amazingly. Definitely, build in height differences in a usable way to guide the water.
No the Netherlands is definetly flatter
Excellent clip. Thanks for posting.🙂
Thank you!!! I want to learn more and see videos on flat land in sandy soil.
+1 here! I'm still observing, but water just soaks in wherever it falls. Loose, sandy soil with very little loam- the only way to get it to retain water and not just pass it right through to the groundwater table seems to be mulch, mulch and mulch. One part of the land has had hazelnut bushes for the last 30 years or so, that definitely has made a difference, the nettles love it there ;)
I saw a video of Greg Judy who undid swales and seemed to have a grudge. He has a reputation for cattle (rotational grazing, grass fed beef). Allegedly it cost him 10k, he warned his followers to install them, he can afford costly mistakes, but he says he knows of people that start out, and allegedly invest a lot into earth work and equipment like fancy stables and machines etc.- when the only things they need are fences, water and animals.
These people do not want to install food forests they want to produce grass fed cattle (or maybe milk). They often do not own the land and are beginners.
He might have a point with the warning for those cases.
I also read that Bill Mollison rule was than only a mature well planted swale system with firmly secured edges) are fit to be grazed by large animals like cows. I gues that also applies to using them as paths. I haveseen Geoff using them with a whell barrow. Maybe one could use a mule, donkey or small horse pulling a cart with large tires and not too much weigh. But certainly not in year one or two.
He works a lot with leased land.
The swales were trampled down by cows (he said they put in a few days of work with fences), and the owner of the land complained that he could not drive over the swales to access all of the land ;) He was not willing to put in some more work with building bridges. And worse the swale he showed are was naked earth and compacted. There were also points of overflow that formed mud puddles (so no sealed pond), and on the other hand the water did not infiltrate fast either.
So the "expert" that adivised them or the enthusiastic young man that tried the newest fad (eiither a relative of an intern) did not get a lot of things right and were not good in fixing things.
They planted trees but they all died (which is remarkable because there are mature trees on the plot, and rain may be scarce during some summers, but generally speaking they have enough, the grass looked good. And he wanted ONLY to raise cattle (goats and sheep) but no interest in growing and selling plant food (food trees could of course support the feed of the cows, but on the other hand that he has at most a 10 year lease . It takes a few years until even smaller apple trees etc become productive.
and he had no intention to diversify his operations (selling fruit, pressing apple juice, making cider, selling at a farmers market) etc.
A swale is a tree growing, water inflitration feature that creates zones of inequal distribution of water and nutrients, and can secure the underground and prevent erosiion. Unequal to a degree, likely the more slope the more the water will sit towards the trees. That means there are micro zones and borders.
He on the other hand wants his cows to graze the whole area, and rather removes than plants trees from what I have been seen form other videos. .
It is often a solution for land that has more slope, could do with more water, so it needs some harvesting, or there are problems with erosion.
And it is a way of transfering a meadow into a forest or parkland.
Whereas he wants meadow (with some trees for shadow, but not more).
Biodiversity is NOT for everyone, but eventually everyone lands up biodiversed.
The guy that was prejudiced against swales and trees needed to do some more studying himself. There are many trees appropriate for interplanting that increase overall feed while providing other benefits.
Cattle need shade during hot weather and protection from wind during bad. They fatten better with fewer stresses. It is important trees be well dispersed that the field gets well grazed overall.
Many trees can also act as a source of high protein cattle feed that also fixes nitrogen to enhance grass growth.
Some trees like Empress Paulownia trees also provide excellent wood for growing timber...
I'd really like to come to Zaytuna as a volunteer, can you please explain how to do it?
Can I volunteer while taking a course of permaculture desing?
Eventually do I have to pay?
Would be nice to know more about all this stuff.
I'm becoming ready to start my new life, and you played a big role in that. Thank you very much.
Thank you
I have 40 acres, extremely flat, 2 ft of fall from the NW corner to the SE corner with 1 ft of fall from the NW corner to the SW corner, NW and NE corners are level.
When life gives you lemons, build a swale (or canal).
That was nice ! :)
One of the benefits of canals is that can extend/moderate a growing season. The canals acted as 'cold sinks'. The residual heat from the water kept plants from freezing as easily. The farmer earned more, had free time, and could also afford to hire labor.
Think it's utilized in Chile, in the high altitude areas where nightime frosts can wreck havov in summer.
It's in an old issue of Permaculture Design Magazine.
So if there’s flat land, clay soil & not a lot of rain the placement of the swales doesn’t really matter?
It's just as important.
Unless you live in Holland 😂😂 so what to do when you live there? Drought in summer starts to become an issue here. Even if the ground water level is still high it starts to go down every summer its an news item here. Yet there are small canals(and bigger once) everywhere. Farmers tend to spray their land with water from these canals(mechanically) during dry periods. Even that fails if the drought is to long (like this year) and crops dye. How do you build a good sustainable water retaining system in clay soil with low ground water levels and canals that are running 1.5 m below ground level?
Making these Chinampa canals seems strange to me, they would be deep and i'm sure there are rules in place against that much digging over here 😂
"THE PROBLEM IS THE SOLUTION'', I'm going to write that down!
Seems like that’s almost always the answer!
Awesome 👍👍👍 thanks Geoff
I have flat land with a high water table. Is the there guidance on building chinampa canals? At a minimum, how deep and wide should they be in a warm Temperate or sub tropics, to avoid drying out and being able to support an aqua culture water system. Given the canals are a substitute to swales.
a quick search and read of a wikipedia article leads me to believe that chinampas are best suited to marsh/swamp conditions rather than just a high water table.
setting that aside, I believe soil type is going to be the biggest factor, if you have sandy soil I don't think chinampas will be something you can fabricate unless your water table is less than a couple of feet below the ground, but if you have high clay content you might be able to dig ditches around about 3 feet wide and deep (1 meter by 1 meter) and they'd probably retain plenty of water between rains, outside of drought conditions
It doesn’t matter how big you make them. They will dry up unless it rains constantly or they are fed by springs. They need to be full anyhow, unless you’re growing swamp trees or something. A little water at the bottom of a deep trench doesn’t help passively water crops, doesn’t help with harvesting either unless it’s big enough to take a kayak down.
It is a LOT of work to install swales or a chinampa system. The Aztecs likely had slaves, or poor peasants (in areas they conquered) that could be forced into doing the manual labor (it is assumed that they did not invent that method, but expanded an already existing system, and building a dam in the lake made that possible. That neede a lot of labor).
The chimpanas were built in a permanent shallow body of water. Staking out a square with a "woven fence" then filling it up with material.
If you create a pond it likely would be less work to put it to good use as pond for growing fish, or crabs. and / or as water reserve and / or for swimming. Or growing reeds in a shallow portion if that would be a crops. Or lotus (is it possible to eat it ? ), or water plants for sale. Or maybe growing some speciality.
That pond would be another eco system increasing the edges (where the zones meet a lot of diversity is present), it would attract additional predators on pests (maybe also pests) and be a water reserve in case there is a draught.
One point that I do not fully understand: Swales are a high investment (costs, labor, partially maintanance) and also limit certain uses of land (access for machines, vehicles, and in the early stages certainly larger animals). Now - if you have a hill, an erosion problem and need to infiltrate water so your trees have enough year round, swales are very often a good tool and worth the investment.
But with swales a lot of things can be done wrong, and if they are not a good fit they tend not only to be a waste of resources (a major one if someone starts out) but tend to create damage.
If you have no erosion and no lack of water if would think twice if that is your priority.
I saw a video of Greg Judy - he has regenerative cattle farming down and is considered an authority, but was tempted to let some interns (or a relative or son that works for him) install swales. That did not make sense for HIS situation for several reasons - and they recreated the former state (he said it cost him 10,000 USD, I guess creating and then building back).
He mentioned that they had an advisor - well he should ask for his money back and ask for damages, and they must have been carried away and treating it as a fad.
It is funny because he has a systemic approach in his area of expertise, but with swales they did not "get" it. or they would have realized that swales were not the tool of choice for them.
Greg advises a lot of people in his area of expertise, and he claims that he knows of people (beginners in grass fed cattle with rotational grazing, that unlike him cannot afford costly mistakes) that installed swales and it did a lot of harm, maybe to the point of bankrupcy if they got carried away.
His conclusions did not suffer from a lot of nuance I think he has a grudge and STILL does not understand swales. Nontheless, he made some valid points and if HE cannot make it work on a flat piece of land with enough rain and it is hard for him to "understand" - beginners should not invest hastily unless they NEED a swale, or canal system.
Erosion, lack of water for instance, or some slope.
Nothing of that applies to you.
If he works on land with a lease for 10 years, wants to have cattle there immediately, and the land owner wants acces with vehicles - swales dividing up the rather flat property with enough rain (although not as favorable as in your sitution) are not the solution.
Thanks 🌎
great question
I'm in Florida, and I'm thinking that planting Mangroves or Sea Grapes might be nature's way of mounding up some land. I'd prefer edibles though.
I live in a typical Florida home. My recent project(s) is to put as much biodiversity into the landscape as possible. Virtually all plants that grow well in Florida are salt tolerant , and there is an endless number of solutions that you can experiment with. You can do a lot with Mangroves and Sea Grapes but that is typically an ornamental approach, and can be quite expensive. I recommend that you start by seeing your home as a zone 1 area. You are the decision maker, and you have to decide how much work you want to put into it.
Mangroves in the salty areas, definitely. Check out David the Good's channel. He lived in Florida for a while and grew a lot of stuff, he still does videos on growing successfully in Florida.
cypress too, the knees catch sediment and debris.. worst thing is trying to mow a lawn with cypress knobs in it though lol
@@michaelg8642
Sheep don't mind.
What if your on a hard pan of deep coffee rock? Here the land was old swamp, sloping to the right and back of the property which hits a gutter and taking the water to a creek off the land. The peat turns to mush in winter and hard as rock in summer. We need fire breaks here so the perimeters are constantly bare and would probably be frowned upon if I used the break to plant on. Have about a foot of sand before the coffee rock. Is there a pioneer plant that will bust through deep coffee rock, can handle drought and 40 degree days and wet feet in the winter?
You need to include more information: zone, explanation of 'coffee rock', etc.
i am not sure [see edit in next comment] why swales would have been desireable or a priority for this person. It is a lot of work to install them and an chimpana system is a lot of work to install as well. They are a major investment, and if she has no erosion and no lack of water, She can divert nutrients towards the trees with compost. Or collect water in one pond for emergnecies. draughts in case she needs to get some surplus water out of the soil.
One of the things about productivity is that 'edges' are always more productive, as they allow more plant and animal diversity.
Is it possible to make rice permaculture
Saw where a guy incorporated rice. Check out the permie books and magazines in your library on the subject.
Just saw the name of the guy, look up Ben Falk's work.
Would swales work in dry and cold regions of Canada, e.g., hardiness zones 1a and 1b? What would be the most effective permaculture design for these regions?
I heard of areas in South America that extended their growing season with canals. It's in an old issue of Permaculture Design Magazine. The canals acted as 'cold sinks'. While the residual heat from the water kept plants from freezing as easily. It effectively increased profits and productivity. Think it was in Chile in the high altitude areas.
What about flat land, lot o water, with sand. Aka Florida. Are swales even worth it when there's not really any runoff?
Check out David the Good's channel. He's an expert in that area.
flat lot with an abundance of water? id say count your blessings. but if you are complaining, then give it to me because you are undeserving. how about what to do with a mountain side full of big boulders and trees with a lack of water.
oh no they have an abundance of water and ground that is easy to work, what ever will they do???
id build a pond first off, and use the soil from the pond to raise up a bit a land for my house.
That's what I though. A lot of options with that.
2:18
I took it to mean removing the excess water. eg drains and/or moving water off the site, where swales are essentially useless and going to make productive land boggy.
Chinampas hold water and creating canals are too labour and cost-intensive especially in cool temperate regions.
Whilst canals may be labor and cost intensive there's a reason the netherlands has so many canals.
Across the street from my house there's a big canal, next to my house there's a smaller canal. Behind our property line there's a small-ish ditch which is connected to a pond and behind the forest (behind the ditch) is another ditch 😂 obviously being located in holland the land is very flat but I can't say I've ever had wet feet, just don't try to drive the dirt road next to the smaller canal after it has rained because you're gonna get stuck 😇
@@dodopson3211 Unfortunalety in Scotland its hilly and on the coast here, wet :) Flatter, productive land needs water moved around the site and then off or absorbed into a forestry belt.
Regardless of it all, if it rains here everything gets wet.. and cold :)
@@alistairmackinnon4216 ah Scotland, that reminds me of a song.
🎶My heart always longs for the highlands,
Watch the view of the lochs down below.
Where winter and summer may come in one day
For the hills is where I want to go.🎶
Winter and summer coming in one day says enough about your climate 😂
@@dodopson3211 Those canals in the Netherlands were made at a time when labor was cheap. And the PURPOSE was likely also for transportation, no ? Transport by ship is still the most cost / energy efficient method. Back in the day they did not have well kept tarmack roads, trains, trucks and fossil fuel and motors. If need be horses could pull logs or boats that floated in a stream or canal. They also had trails along rivers where horses pulled ships upstream. 2 humans could transport loads that would have needed one horses and a cart on land.
Horses, mules, donkeys were valuable then. Not everyone had them. A boat was an effort to build but if well maintained could keep for decades and that work could be spared for winter time when they had less work in agriculture. A boat needs less space than an animal, no stable, fodder, bedding, did not get diseases.
User Alistair likely is not well established in his operation and earthwork, swales, canals are costly, there are lots of mistakes that _can_ be made, he is no expert (or he would not ask), so starting with that kind of costly investment when there is no urgency to have it, is shopping for trouble.
I think by starting with the low hanging fruits (methods that are less costly, less PERMANENT, have less potential for unintended consequences) he can train himself to learn his land and become a good observer of the system. And also to do research.
An installation that can be easily done and reversed / altered offers more room for mistakes and corrections.
Having a few years of working with the system under his belt makes the success of such a big intervention much more likely. IF he still wants to give it a try then.
@@alistairmackinnon4216 Check out the channel of *_Cairn of Dunn Croft Permaculture,_* he is in Scotland, does a lot of work with water on his rather flat property, ponds (canals ? swales ?), mentioned a too dry summer, so he wants to manage the water.
If he has the same challenges as you you do not need to make all the mistakes yourself and can learn from his experiences.
I thought in Scotland you only can have trouble with too much rain ;)
Maybe he has the same situation as you. He also seems to know about the risks when building a pond (safety of the dam).
So would very deep swaddle half filled with large rock at highest part of my 10 acres be a good solution to flooding issues for me and everyone below me?
Deep swale
You need plantings to help secure it. Brad Lancaster has good books on the subject.
What do you do to keep water from eroding the outer edges of the swivel pipes and breaking the swale?
Good plantings are part of it. Brad Lancaster's books may be a good guide, newest edition.
Geoff. I am wanting to french drain my vermiculture casing water into my garden via drip lines. Is this possible? I have the physics down however, I was wondering if it would be to diluted and better kept to save it normally then place into the garden?
Thank you
Mark Herrington USA
❤️
Crap, the Netherlands here 🤔
chinampa
much of water? Dig a pond to have a fish and excavated ground use for rised beds above the water level. Simple.
Geoff! Don't you have mosquitoes?!
If the water is permanently in a canal/pond/pit, it is often possible to grow some fish in it. Many fish (especially smaller ones) eat mosquito worms/larvae. Of course, it's never 101% perfect, but it is close. Also, dragonflies live large part of their life in a water as predatory creatures. When flying, they are also eating mosquitoes.
@@tonisee2
If you have the right flowering plants and live in the Americas, hummingbirds help too.
Drink every time he says right angle to contour.
Don't raise ruminants. Humans do not need cows or sheep. These animals are inefficient. Start by plant water tolerant trees to capture all the water. Then plant other trees and shrubs around these trees randomly. It is survival of the fittest. Sow seed randomly for flower and vegetables. Do Fukuoka natural farming which is far superior to permaculture. There is no design needed. You are lucky cause you have all the water. Come to Oregon where is no rain with relative humidity below 30% and strong wind in the summer. If you have a piece of totally damage barren land, no well, and a ton of underground critters, such as gophers, voles, moles, ground squirrels, and deer, wild rabbits, wild turkeys, ... Try it. This is my 2 acres of barren land. Now I have enough fruit and non-fruit trees and start to have some kind of ecosystem going on. I started it 7 years ago. I grow almost everything from either some sticks or seeds. Over 50% of the trees I planted have been killed by rodents, rabbits, deer, and drought. I still have 1 acre of almost barren land with only about 10 young trees that I planted over 7 years. I give you 500 bucks (that includes the water bill) and see what you can do with it in 10 years without importing any organic matter into the system. Fukuoka natural farming is a closed system with NO importation of any organic matter from outside. LOL
A balanced ecosystem is needed on a farm, despite your misguided politics.
@@b_uppy Humans don't need to farm much. Read One Straw Revolution. Save the planet; save yourself time. Industrial farming is killing America. Everyone can become self-reliant by doing some backyard homestead that has little impact to our environment and allows Americans to eat heavy and exercise. You are brainwashed by EVIL toxic industrial farmers.
Your supposition that paints corporate farming the same as permaculture farming reflects your mentality rather than the state of all farming.
The shame is on you.
@@b_uppy I am not even doing permaculture. I do zero cost, do nothing natural farming. LOL Only foul will raising stupid ruminants that will destroy our nature. LOL LOL
@@trumplostlol3007
You're a do nothing kind of person...
Grow mosquitos.
And fish...