One thing too I noticed the 'bearded' gurus do is treat the mythologies as a gestalt - it wasn't. As far as we know, there wasn't an organized institution that codified religious practice. Different regions almost certainly had variations on which gods they venerated the most or at least which they emphasized. This is reflected almost certainly in the interesting regional variation in places names across Scandinavia.
@@PohjanKarhu they call him the "oldfather" in this instance, which is why I brought it up. I think it even says Thor is Odin's father but I'd have to double check it
@@PohjanKarhuThat is certainly true of what we know about the Classical Greek and Roman gods, about which we have more sources. Different communities and cults may have focused on worshipping different gods in the pantheon more than others. But they all seemed to believe that Zeus/Jupiter was the chief god. But all gods are powerful and all gods need veneration, and different communities had different patron deities. It is even believed by many scholars that early Israelite belief worked like that. There was a pantheon, El was the chief god, and Yahweh was one of his sons and the patron deity of Israel, while other gods in the pantheon, like Ba’al, were patron deities of other nearby Canaanite peoples. Later on, as the Israelites moved towards monotheism, El and Yahweh were merged to be the same god, and Ba’al was caste as a kind of idol of outsiders. But originally, Yahweh would have been the god primarily worshipped by the Israelites, while El was still the head of the pantheon.
I mean Greece even did this even though it was a single country and gad advanced writing, politics, and philosophers. And even large religions such as Christianity is no different. Christianity has at least dozens of different sects who all believe vastly different ideas and practice different rites. They also even kill and ostracize people from other sects just as much as they do other religions. People that think Christianity is a monolith even though it has a semi-stable core text don't know or study religions much.
We find the same thing with the Old English Tiw. Of the three known deities referenced in place names, Tiw is by far the rarest. In fact, I think only something like two or three place names with Tiw in them are known. It seems that even during the pagan period before the arrival of Roman Christianity he was a fairly obscure figure.
If I recall correctly there are a few different Roman references to Mars or just a war god being especially important to the Goths and Suebi. This could be interpreted as just referring to Woden but then it would be strange that Tuesday is Tues Day, and not Wednes Day.
@@Svensk7119yes, they should both come from something like Proto-Germanic "Tīwaz" related to "Zeus" and "Divus/Deus". Old English/english is west germanic and in those languages the nominative a-stem "-az" is lost, so Tiwaz becomes > Tiw. Whereas in the early north germanic language the z in the nominative a-stem "rhotacized" into an "r". And the "w" influenced the "i" into a front rounded vowel, "y". Giving Tyr vs Tiw from Tiwaz. Tiw is also where modern English Tue- comes from, as in Tuesday. Sorry for the long winded reply, and also I'm not a linguist so take this all with a grain of salt.
I think Nerthus is a good example of how Nordic religion evolved since the Roman period to the Viking Age. In which as described by Tacitus, the germans did a wagon procession in name of the Goddes, but latter in Viking time we see the same rite but associated to Frey and Freya.
From the research I have done into Tyr, my speculation would be that at some point closer to the Neolithic he might have had a more important status, but by the time of the Norse pantheon for sure not.
I think that too, the other option I wonder is if he was adopted from another religion/culture who worshipped him as their chief god and the Germanic people adopted him as one of their gods but not the chief?
As a Norwegian I have one counter- argument to Tyr not being an important god : One of the week days bear his name. That he would be more important than Odin in Norse religion however, I find highly implausible.
I think the idea is that some time between proto-Germanic and the Viking Age, Odin worship supplanted Tyr worship. I think the Hammer and the Cross series explored this a little.
@@Svensk7119 yes, the Romans identified Tyr with Mars, their god of war, and Oden with Mercury. Jupiter, the chief god, was identified with Thor instead of with either of them. In the norse age as reflected through Snorri, while Thor was very popular and likely had more devotees than Oden, Oden is always the chief in the myths, and literally father to Thor. Clearly there had been changes in the intervening span of years, but it's very hard to say much more with certainty.
One thing I simply don't understand is: Zeus and Ju-piter/Jov- and Dyáuh Pitā are cognates, from Proto-Indo-European *dyéus (sorry, couldn't mark the long e) meaning roughly 'day sky' (+ 'father' in Latin and Indic). But from this word the Proto-Indo-European word *deywós is derived (with an *e after the first consonant), and this means 'someone pertaining to the day sky', i.e. a god. This gives rise to Latin deus (sorry, couldn't mark the long e) 'god' and Avestan daeva 'demon' (because of the change in religion) etc. But this is also the origin of Old Norse Týr. So Týr is *not* descended from *dyéus but from its derivation *deywós and simply means 'a god' which means that they are different words. Related, sure, but not the same, and certainly not the same name. Why is it that everyone says that Týr is cognate with Zeus, Jupiter and Dyáuh Pitā when it isn't? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
@@varjovirta3085 The stem of that name is tiwad- so it has a suffix: -ad. The z stands for d+s. It is related to the other words - it may be derived from *deywós - but the derivation makes it yet another (third) word so there is no direct connection to Týr.
Great insight about mixing and historical accidents-- Indo-Europeans spread far and wide and interacted with a wide variety of different people who would've had different pre-existing belief systems that (I imagine) would've necessitated some degrees of cooptation, borrowing, accomodation, and perhaps more reactive responses than those like suppression or denial, that would make for a wide variety of syncretic religious beliefs stretching from Ireland to Bengal. Even within the Indo-Iranian branch, the ahura and daeva have different roles in Zoroastrian beliefs than their cognate counterparts ashura and deva do in Vedic beliefs. I sometimes wonder though: are all of these variations post-migration syncretisms, or are some actually religious innovations/cults that cause groups to segment and migrate away in the first place-- and, to get real crazy here, are some linguistic changes due to social pressures to differentiate one set of believers from another, or else pressures on religious specialist classes (akin to brahmins or druids) to maintain some distinctive ritual language that they alone have full access to? That was probably a lot of brain vomit, apologies. 😂
It's kind of interesting that in both Nordic mythology (Tyr) and Early Vedic mythology (Dyaus Pitr) the deities that evolved from the original Indo European chief god (Dyeus Phater) both had become afterthoughts in their respective pantheons by the time they were recorded. It makes one wonder if there was some mythological cross pollination going on between Proto-Germanic speakers and Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers that the other branches didn't partake in.
I highly doubt however that Dyeus Phater was ever a “true” chief god among the early Indo-European speaking peoples; may have been with some groups, but knowing that the early Indo-European pantheon was most likely not a dogmatic or unified idea, it could have gone many ways.
@@tylerbrubaker6642What's your distinction between a "chief god" and a _"true_ chief god", and what's piquing your skepticism here (so to speak)? ("Well, it _could_ have been otherwise" is valid, of course; I'm just curious whether there's anything in particular that makes you doubt it.)
@@Kveldred well to say that this sky father figure was a chief god in the Indo European pantheon is a bit weak in general if I’m being completely honest(who knows I might be wrong). After all we know that Zeus as far as the Greek pantheon went, he was. But as to the proto-Indo European speaking peoples on the Russian steppe, it is completely unknown to know what kind of role he had at all in the religion. Now as to your question about the true chief god vs chief god, I’m referring to how these rolls changed during the indo european migrations, languages mixed, peoples mixed, so did other gods. But I imagine they were also changing before the migrations considering that these traditions had no societal norms like ours do today, they were just transmitted through word of mouth. That’s my reasoning anyway.
I very much appreciate what I've seen/heard of your work on this platform, and I'll be purchasing your audiobook so that I can listen while I work, and joining your patreon at the meager level I can afford.
Considering he gets one of the days of the week up over here, I don't remember learning anything about him in school beyond maybe being god of this or that. A lot of history between the Roman times up in Germania and when the Norse made their presence known across Europe, true. And almost none of it written down by anyone. Certainly no contemporary theological texts up here. So for a god to go form a leading position to almost forgotten in those centuries? Sure. So much is forgotten sadly.
One theory I heard was that Tyr, being a war god, maybe had a taboo associated with his real name, and thus the people called him “Tyr” or “the god”. To refer to him without invoking his wrath. Edit: this is just a conjecture and not at all proved in any way nor does it have acumen
Could be. It happened before to good old Tetragrammaton, and substituting synonyms for powerful entities (like bears, wolves) was a wide-spread custom in the North Germanic culture.
I have heard this was the case with the bear too in a lot of European societies, it was called by various nicknames to avoid summoning it with the true name.
@@varjovirta3085I think his reconstructed Proto-Germanic name was Tiwaz, so that sounds pretty likely. Though, thinking about it, it’s weird that both Luwian and Proto-Germanic would get to the same T start and “az” suffix from the original Proto-Indo-European “Deywas”, so I guess it could just be something else that coincidentally sounds the same? But, it sounds so much like Deywas, I would say it is probably from that same root?
I agree. Proof of that could be his many names. Some of which were used during roughly the same historical times. Latin - Mars Thingsus/Proto Norse - Týr/Tīwaʀ, Proto-Germanic - Tīwaz - Gothic - Tiews/Tīus - Old English/Germanic - Tīw/Ziu
Also, look up the Ribe skull fragment. It's where I took the Runes in my name from, which were transitional between Elder and Younger Futhark - High-Tiuur.
So I've heard the argument that in Norway/Sweden/Denmark (though maybe not so much Iceland) that from the pre-Christian era there are or were far more settlements named for Tyr and Thor than Odin, and that's the evidence that those two were more important among the earlier Norse and Germanic peoples than Odin. Is this the case and if so, is this what the "bearded guru" set are basing their stance on?
There are way more places named after Thor than Odin, but Odin has more places named after him than Tyr. Most places named after Tyr are in Denmark and southern Sweden. Places named after Odin are a more spread out.
It should be added, though, that places named for gods are not originally names of settlements but names of hills, woods, springs and other terrain features. Settlement names, on the other hand, may contain a person's name which again may contain a god's name but that is a different matter.
I'm seeing a few comments here suggesting that Tyr lost his supposed status as the highest god of the Germanic pantheon as a result of losing his hand, and I'm awfully confused by this. What I mean is that I don't understand what they're trying to add to this converstion with such suggestions. Are they assuming a euhemerist framework in which Tyr is based of a real historical king or chief who lost his hand and thus his right to rule? If not, how does trying to figure this out from _within the myth_ help? That's not how this works, at least not if we're working with Tyr as a cult object rather than Tyr as a literary character.
yes, enjoyed the content, especially the view, thanks for the break into Norse mythology/linguistics as always (I just come for the intro of the bison herd really)
“A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.” (-Hume), but generally folks are extremely reluctant to do that. They prefer exciting and clever speculation.
I always wondered about the whole Aesir/Vanir divide. Is there a consensus on the origin? I always assumed that at some point in the distant past, one Germanic group conquered or assimilated another ethnic group and just absorbed their gods into the pantheon.
I figured the Æsir are the Indo-Europeans and the Vanir are the Sámi or some group who was there before the Bronze age arrival of the Indo-Europeans. But could be something more recent and closely related as you say.
@@alianna8806I doubt the Vanir had anything to do with the Sami, as they were shamanic and didn't recognize pantheons the way IE did. I would wager the Vanir were the group of gods in the region prior to the arrival of a more recently "Germanic" pantheon
@@edmundblackadder6698 It would be the Germanic perception of the Sámi, not their totally historically accurate beliefs. The Norse many not have known all about their practices. But it's one theory.
@@alianna8806 At the time of the arrival of the indo-europeans (corded ware / battle-axe culture (Aesir) ) there were no sami in scandinavia. The only group(s) present would be the funnelbeaker culture (Vanir) & the pitted ware culture (Jötnar).
How much do you think pop culture sources such as Dungeons and Dragons influenced the tendency of non-academics and pseudo-academics to try to pigeonhole gods with certain archetypes or portfolios?
Interpretato roman verison of the english weekdays could have used Tiw to fill the mars role, and simultaneously used Woden as Mercury because who else would fill Mercury? I dont think just because Tiw was used for Tuesday means he was once more important
Why do we expect the gods to be seen the same across the Norse world? Given the mostly oral traditions, would we not expect differences of belief in Iceland and Uppsala? Has anyone done work on this?
@@noaht2 The day was named after Tiwaz, not after Tiw. Hence, Tiwaz dag. I used the old Norse name derived from Tiwaz rather than the old English name which is also derived from Tiwaz, because this is an old Norse related channel. I am glad you understood and weren't just being pedantic.
Excellent video. I know I'm late to the party, and that the professor touches the on the meaning in his video, but Týr's name is not *directly* cognate to Jupiter or Zeus. Instead, it comes from a different derivation of the same root. This derivation simply meant 'god'. Juppiter
Thanks so much. You talk about Tyr having evolved from the early Roman Empire till the Viking age, but aren’t we taking about different Germanic cultures as well? Is there any way to tease out what may be differences introduced by time from differences across Germanic groups?
We can't say anything definitively, the most we can do is speculate from the scant evidence we have. By example place names, genealogies listing gods, and things like that.
Like you’ve mentioned before: we’re looking at clusters of beliefs that were most likely not dogmatic; the idea that Tyr may have had a more important role is plausible, but again it was never a “true” idea that would have been consistent throughout the ages of the Germanic pantheon. In regards to the Roman interpretation of Mars/?Tyr?, it’s really unclear, like you mentioned that Tyr may have just been a title for a god rather than a staple name for a god. So for instance how do we know that this mars equivalent was really Tyr?? For all we know it could have been Donar/Thor, which, in my opinion at least, seems more plausible. Thanks for the insight as always Dr. Crawford and thank you doubly for showing us the beauty of your home.
By the logic people have for Tyr being the Chief Norse God, the demonic Divs from Persian myth should be viewed as higher gods than Ahura Mazda. Dyeus descendants retain their supernatural association, but people throughout time have picked their favorite gods to win. Like when YHWH won out over Jupiter in Rome.
All I’m hearing is that in a few thousand years there’s a possibility I will be misunderstood as an aspect of the popular god ‘Chris Evans’ because my name is Kevin.
I'm pretty sure this is a form of survivor bias. We can see in other very old religions that they shift the importance of gods at a very specific point; the invention of writing, with the god who invents or discovers writing suddenly becoming much much more important. Early writing is basicly magic and it must have had a gigantic impact on the societies that discovered it. The Babylonians had a similair shift, as did the Phoenicians. The most important gods before that are very often gods associated with speaking law/judges. Which makes sense as early societies mostly rever their lawspeakers. When the Romans encountered the Germanic tribes further north than just those along the Rhine they noticed two things: the extreme commitment of soldiers to their leaders, calling them 'commitatus' and that the most popular god was Mars, which they called Tyr (or some other earlier variant of that name). As Romans always do when they encounter other cultures they just assume they are misguided and worship the same gods, but with different names. And that makes sense, the most important god is likely associated with the most important aspect of life. It explains why sedentary people all worship raingods as their most or one of their most important gods. And of course survivor bias... the god associated with writing is obviously more likely to be regarded as most important in written sources... There's also something odd going on with almost all civilisations having stories about how they got fire from the gods and that it is what made them truly distinct and smart, as compared to beasts. But none seem to actively worship the fire god or thank him for it. Most well preserved is of course the myths of Prometheus, who quite literally turns humans into actual humans, yet he is punished for it and receives no worship
It didn't. Nabu is the Babylonian god of writing and became the most popular god in the Iron Age but that was thousands of years after the invention of writing in Mesopotamia and Nabu was never head of the pantheon. The actual pantheon head Bel Marduk became unpopular as he was seen as too distant and powerful compared to his son Nabu but Nabu was still invoked as Bel's representative even after he appropriated all the direct worship, just like all the Catholic saints who were considered more approachable than the Catholic god were never in a position of actually displacing the chief god. He's even more wrong with the Pheonicians whose writing god is just an imported version of Thoth and was never a chief god. @@ur-inannak9565
@@AC-dk4fp Yeah it didnt seem to make sense to me, because I know it not to be true of Sumerians as well. I think Woden rose to prominence because of the extreme violence and uncertainty of the migration period if anything.
I remember the video about the silver button featuring Tyr vs. “Fenrir” found in Denmark. Its interesting that apparently-at some point-Tyr was more widely worshipped in Denmark rather than Sweden (where the cult of Odin as chief god seems to have originated) or Norway, which is where most of the Icelandic colonisers came from (there are at least seventeen place-names after Tyr in Denmark vs. at least one in Norway and none elsewhere). Maybe if more Danish traditions had survived into the modern day we would know more about Tyr as his own entity.
You know, Tyr's role as a war god might not be so far off, in the Poetic Edda, we are given a small glimpse to Tyr's role as a war god through a small stanza in Sigrdrífumál that states placing his rune on a weapon. With the Prose Edda Tyr is described as "most valiant" and having "power over victory in battles" so this idea of Tyr being a war god is not so farfetched. Of course, there are many interpretations to this and I am no expert in Old Norse. So, if anyone would understand this it is Jackson Crawford.
I think the road does add to the view. What can we learn from place and/or personal names? Are there any personal names that include Odin's name? Or Tyr's? I know there seem to be people named after Thor.
Thor is indeed way more common in personal names. There is one name, Odinkar, which is the name of a local Queen's father from around 900 AD and also the name of a bishop from around 1000 AD, both in southern Jutland. I cannot think of any name with Týr.
That's most assuredly a pure coincidence. There are only so many sounds and syllables around. The more probable connection is the one between the Germanic Tiwaz and the Greek Dios or Roman Deus. Tyr is a Scandinavian short form. Scandinavian tend to shorten words. Compare their languages to German and you'll know what I mean.
It’s interesting for me to think of how a god may be demoted. Were Ouranos and Chronos literally the chief gods for some earlier culture That were displaced by the sky god Zeus? I can’t remember where I got that idea, but I don’t think I just made it up. What was Chronos the god of anyway? Not time. I think even the ancient Greeks got confused about that. Anyway, it makes me wonder if Tyr was demoted simply by coming into contact with another group of people who worshiped Odin or Thor (are we sure Thor isn’t a cognate?) and those people were more powerful.
I like the idea that he very well could have been the Chief Sky Father deity of the Germanic peoples simply because of his name, evolved from Dyeus Pater. Sadly it (like much of the early Germanic Religion) is lost to the mists of time.
As a big bearded pagan (not a guru, oh well) I think proto-Tyr if you will was a far more important god than Viking Age Tyr, and that his only remaining main story of losing his hand is symbolic of this fall. Perhaps the cult of proto-Tyr lost a few too many battles/wars and it was seen as weakness while the cult of Odin was winning battle after battle so he was seen as more powerful. After all who would you pray to, the god who's followers wins 5/10 battles or the one who wins 8/10 battles?
Interesting hot take that Tyr is basically just a left over god with less importance to the Norse people, especially considering he is THE only god with a rune named directly after him being Tiwaz. You could make the argument that Thurisaz is a rune “named” after Thor, but it’s more of a dedication considering it implies an action (Thor is as). I think we just have a loss of information on Teiwaz/Tyr within the void never to return, considering he is etymologically directly cognate with Deiwas/Dyeus of the older PIE pantheon. But then again I’m no expert of course, just a laymen’s opinion.
He will die at the hands of Garmr, the dog of the underworld. Until then, according to some legends, he will live isolated in an area among the mountains that will later be called Tyrol in modern times, in honor of him. Hey. I live in South Tyrol 😊 ciao.
The generic-ness of Tyr makes me wonder if the name was part of a long title or invocation for Thor akin to the stylings of later kings and emperors. Tór, god father in the sky, god of the thing, true protector, brave rider… If there was a taboo about saying his name, then the title would start with Tyr pater…
When Tyr lost his hand, why other gods laughed at him? Bravest of them all (or stupidly brave? person, who was previously great, but was now worth of nothing?), yet others didn't take him seriously.
Having read mostly Greco-Roman myths, but some Germanic and Celtic myths having percolated down through pop culture to me, I don't think anyone can accuse IE gods in general of being particularly wise...
I feel Tyr must have been more important than Odin because of being first in the days of the week. Thor being son of O and then Frig, wife of O. Seems like an order of importance going on.
The order of the days of the week was influenced by the Babylonian planets. The german day names are all translated from Latin, no re-ordering happened but sunday became the first day of the week for Christianity reasons. Monday then became the first day in the 20th century due to the labour movement but only became internationally recognised as such in 1988. @@zoymills9868
If you combine archeological findings with the myths, a very different picture emerges. From what I can tell, gods were the primary concern of the elite / ruling classes. Common folk seemed to focus more on the more animistic aspects of a faith and would be far more recognizable across the regions. They seemed to focus more on things that brought good harvests, protection of their livestock, health, etc. Gods were rulers and thus, they were concerned with the ruling classes. It's an interesting theory that seems to me at this point, difficult, if not impossible to prove.
Yes. There are other sources that give a somewhat different picture of early medieval Germanic belief and practice as well. Like early Christian law codes in England banning the worship of trees. So while Woden (Odin) and Thunor (Thor) may have been Anglo-Saxon gods, and probably featured in similar myths like those we get from their closely related Norse cousins, it seems like ordinary people must have doing things like worshipping trees. If they weren’t doing it, why legislate against it? I feel like “worship” may not 100% convey the nature of what was going on, and was probably a Christian framing, but presumably people were making offerings to nature spirits at trees or something like that? Jackson is great, but I do think if one wants an overall picture of Norse or Germanic belief, he is a bit overly restrictive to the formal texts, while there are quite a lot of other sources out there that shift the picture somewhat of how the whole thing worked. That said, his interpretation regarding Tyr in the Viking Age is probably the best we’ve got. I mean, there could have been other myths that didn’t survive that make Tyr more important (though I doubt the father god above Odin), but if we don’t have any evidence of them, then we have to go with what we have got.
I should also say, Jackson, that he seems to be of some importance in the early 8th century. See the Ribe skull fragment 725 A.D. Also, it seems with the discovery of the Viking burial ground found on the Estonian island of Saaremaa pushed the start of the Viking age back to between 650 and 700 A.D.
I suppose if the poetic edda verion of Tyr is something like a parody, we can't really guess what it is a parody of. But isn't also it true that most surviving signs of worship are for Thor, with much less for Odin, so talking so much about Odin compared to Thor is also a bit of a modern distortion based on Odin being more enigmatic?
I'm not so sure Tyr was that unimportant. Even if he didn't have the status of the Third, a day of the week is named after him. I suppose we have no possibility to get further into this without speculation. Maybe neopagans like him more because he's way less creepy than the One-eyed. Getting an idea of Boelwerk's thoughts and deeds can be quite unsettling for a cultural Christian just looking for a more venturesome faith. It's way more comfortable to stick with the brave and just and noble one.
Doesn't "Týr" come from "deywós", which means ðe same as "god" and literally "heavenly", whereas "Zeus" comes from "Dyēws", which means ðe same as "heaven"?
The important story about Tyr is the story where he lost (sacrificed) his hand/arm. Maybe that's also the story about why he lost his status? You can't have a king who isn't physically perfect. You can't have a crippled leader. But then Odin is also crippled. He lost an eye. He can still see with both eyes though. Odin's gave his eye to Mimir's Well in return for wisdom and intelligence. Tyr gave his hand to chain the chaos monster. I don't know, maybe I'm overreaching with this.
Myths involving changes of status aren't actual statements of religious history. Even in cases like the Enuma Elish which justifies the promotion of Marduk to head of the Babylonian pantheon the actual plot of the Epic doesn't dramatise the actual religious changes since the actual rivals of Marduk for chief god postition, Ishtar, Shamash, Enlil and Amartu don't appear in the Epic at all. Instead Marduk's rival is a random monster called Kingu who doesn't appear anywhere else. In the Hittite Song of Going Forth Anu loses his position of King of the Gods after being castrated but he's an imported Sumerian god who was never actually worshipped as the chief god by the Hittites and wasn't even the primary head of any of the various competing Sumerian pantheons. Hesiod imports the castration of Anu into his Theogyny as the grandfather of Zeus under the translated name Ouranos who also has no actual role in real Greek religion except as ephitets of Zeus and Aphrodite. Osiris is also replaced by his son Horus after being left castrated but in actual Egyptian religious history Horus was the original chief god who latter god demoted to Osirus son rather than his uncle. Osiris' importance in Egyptian religion just increased until he was combined into a syncretic chief god by the Ptolemaic dynasty. The meaning of Tyr's hand loss may have disqualified him from a high position in the pantheon but intended meaning just can't be mapped on to religious history.
Let´s consider the names of the weekdays. Sunday: the sun being the first god in Scandinavia, dating back 7000 years or so. Monday or more correctly Moonday, as early as Sunday, but female I guess? Tuesday that is Tirs day. Wednesday is Odins day,. Thursday is Thors day, Friday is Freyas day. Since Tir is showing up before Odin and rest of the gang in the weekdays I would consider hime the first of the "person" gods. Sun and moon existed way before.
Well if you think that Tyr is top of the hill I believe that the important perspective of him is the fact that he self sacffices himself, or his hand for the benefit of his society. He is giving a hand for the stalling of Ragnarok if you like which is a small price to pay but nonetheless a heavy one. These are not the actions of a 'war' god. Admittedly he is a martial deity but one with the personal aspects of a protector rather than a battle hungry deity. He actually shows, in the Eddas, his honour and bravery is more important than battlefield prowess. Of course we only have a few sources about him but that's my take.
Drawn to stories of Tyr so always fascinated to hear new perspectives on his place on the pantheon ... perhaps its cos i have a beard! (Not a Viking LARPer though haha)
I agree with Jackson to an extent. Notice what he's saying, that Týr is not very important in the Eddas, not that he wasn't important in other times or sources. The Eddas are only two sources. There could have been dozens of other lost Old Norse sources where he was very important. I think Týr was very important in the Iron/Vendel era and continued to be important in the Viking age. More important than perhaps Jackson feels he was, but not as important as the "big beard gurus"😅 say he was. In any event, i feel he was important simply because of the amount of place names that include his name. I think he was more important in the wider Germanic paganism than Norse though.
San Juans? I thought that was The Lonely Mountain in the background and you were in Middle Earth... oh wait.... Midgard is Middle Earth... so are dragons real?
I value Tyr in the same regard as Thor. They are both good to talk with. Odin is the chief leader but he’s so unpredictable. I’ve received three different outcomes. #1 Recieved what I’ve asked for #2 Recieved deceit #3 Recieved silence. Tyr and Thor are different and it may come down to the years I’ve kept that connection open. But I’ve recieved what I’ve asked for with a trial to complete as proof that their blessings are being put to use.
Makes a joke about bearded pagans and then cuts straight to a grimfrost advert 😂
Lol I noticed that too 😂
The best place to buy your historically accurate crop top😂
They are certainly edgy as f.
@@PalleRasmussen"very touchy" would work there, too.
One thing too I noticed the 'bearded' gurus do is treat the mythologies as a gestalt - it wasn't. As far as we know, there wasn't an organized institution that codified religious practice.
Different regions almost certainly had variations on which gods they venerated the most or at least which they emphasized. This is reflected almost certainly in the interesting regional variation in places names across Scandinavia.
There are some texts from Sweden that seem to venerate Thor as the chief god so you've definitely got a point
@@PohjanKarhu they call him the "oldfather" in this instance, which is why I brought it up. I think it even says Thor is Odin's father but I'd have to double check it
Right. Athens did not believe Athena was the chief of the pantheon.
@@PohjanKarhuThat is certainly true of what we know about the Classical Greek and Roman gods, about which we have more sources. Different communities and cults may have focused on worshipping different gods in the pantheon more than others. But they all seemed to believe that Zeus/Jupiter was the chief god. But all gods are powerful and all gods need veneration, and different communities had different patron deities. It is even believed by many scholars that early Israelite belief worked like that. There was a pantheon, El was the chief god, and Yahweh was one of his sons and the patron deity of Israel, while other gods in the pantheon, like Ba’al, were patron deities of other nearby Canaanite peoples. Later on, as the Israelites moved towards monotheism, El and Yahweh were merged to be the same god, and Ba’al was caste as a kind of idol of outsiders. But originally, Yahweh would have been the god primarily worshipped by the Israelites, while El was still the head of the pantheon.
I mean Greece even did this even though it was a single country and gad advanced writing, politics, and philosophers. And even large religions such as Christianity is no different. Christianity has at least dozens of different sects who all believe vastly different ideas and practice different rites. They also even kill and ostracize people from other sects just as much as they do other religions. People that think Christianity is a monolith even though it has a semi-stable core text don't know or study religions much.
I really appreciate sticking to the sources, what they say and what they don't say.
Just found the channel and truly enjoy it for it's primary reasons, however, personally thank you for the recent posts on sobriety.
Thank you for your content. All the best to you sir.
We find the same thing with the Old English Tiw. Of the three known deities referenced in place names, Tiw is by far the rarest. In fact, I think only something like two or three place names with Tiw in them are known. It seems that even during the pagan period before the arrival of Roman Christianity he was a fairly obscure figure.
If I recall correctly there are a few different Roman references to Mars or just a war god being especially important to the Goths and Suebi. This could be interpreted as just referring to Woden but then it would be strange that Tuesday is Tues Day, and not Wednes Day.
Is Tyr cognate to Tiw?
@@Svensk7119 Yes same word. Both from Tiwaz.
@@Svensk7119yes, they should both come from something like Proto-Germanic "Tīwaz" related to "Zeus" and "Divus/Deus".
Old English/english is west germanic and in those languages the nominative a-stem "-az" is lost, so Tiwaz becomes > Tiw.
Whereas in the early north germanic language the z in the nominative a-stem "rhotacized" into an "r". And the "w" influenced the "i" into a front rounded vowel, "y". Giving Tyr vs Tiw from Tiwaz. Tiw is also where modern English Tue- comes from, as in Tuesday. Sorry for the long winded reply, and also I'm not a linguist so take this all with a grain of salt.
I didn't realize Dr. Polaris started this thread! Not what I'd have thought his usual fare!
(I complain not! The man doth be thoughtful. )
I think Nerthus is a good example of how Nordic religion evolved since the Roman period to the Viking Age. In which as described by Tacitus, the germans did a wagon procession in name of the Goddes, but latter in Viking time we see the same rite but associated to Frey and Freya.
And Nerthus' name is apparently transferred to the male god Njǫrðr.
Thank you for your channel, very informative, interesting, and pronunciation is incredible!
From the research I have done into Tyr, my speculation would be that at some point closer to the Neolithic he might have had a more important status, but by the time of the Norse pantheon for sure not.
I think that too, the other option I wonder is if he was adopted from another religion/culture who worshipped him as their chief god and the Germanic people adopted him as one of their gods but not the chief?
As a Norwegian I have one counter- argument to Tyr not being an important god : One of the week days bear his name. That he would be more important than Odin in Norse religion however, I find highly implausible.
I think the idea is that some time between proto-Germanic and the Viking Age, Odin worship supplanted Tyr worship. I think the Hammer and the Cross series explored this a little.
He addresses this in the video.
@@Svensk7119 That sounds plausible.
@@Svensk7119 yes, the Romans identified Tyr with Mars, their god of war, and Oden with Mercury. Jupiter, the chief god, was identified with Thor instead of with either of them.
In the norse age as reflected through Snorri, while Thor was very popular and likely had more devotees than Oden, Oden is always the chief in the myths, and literally father to Thor. Clearly there had been changes in the intervening span of years, but it's very hard to say much more with certainty.
@@laughingdaffodils5450 Yeah. Knew what you said. The last part, at least.
Great video and scenery, as always.
One thing I simply don't understand is: Zeus and Ju-piter/Jov- and Dyáuh Pitā are cognates, from Proto-Indo-European *dyéus (sorry, couldn't mark the long e) meaning roughly 'day sky' (+ 'father' in Latin and Indic).
But from this word the Proto-Indo-European word *deywós is derived (with an *e after the first consonant), and this means 'someone pertaining to the day sky', i.e. a god. This gives rise to Latin deus (sorry, couldn't mark the long e) 'god' and Avestan daeva 'demon' (because of the change in religion) etc.
But this is also the origin of Old Norse Týr. So Týr is *not* descended from *dyéus but from its derivation *deywós and simply means 'a god' which means that they are different words. Related, sure, but not the same, and certainly not the same name.
Why is it that everyone says that Týr is cognate with Zeus, Jupiter and Dyáuh Pitā when it isn't? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
@@varjovirta3085 The stem of that name is tiwad- so it has a suffix: -ad. The z stands for d+s. It is related to the other words - it may be derived from *deywós - but the derivation makes it yet another (third) word so there is no direct connection to Týr.
UA-cam makes it impossible to follow any conversation in the comment section because it hides or deletes comments almost arbitrarily.
Great insight about mixing and historical accidents-- Indo-Europeans spread far and wide and interacted with a wide variety of different people who would've had different pre-existing belief systems that (I imagine) would've necessitated some degrees of cooptation, borrowing, accomodation, and perhaps more reactive responses than those like suppression or denial, that would make for a wide variety of syncretic religious beliefs stretching from Ireland to Bengal. Even within the Indo-Iranian branch, the ahura and daeva have different roles in Zoroastrian beliefs than their cognate counterparts ashura and deva do in Vedic beliefs. I sometimes wonder though: are all of these variations post-migration syncretisms, or are some actually religious innovations/cults that cause groups to segment and migrate away in the first place-- and, to get real crazy here, are some linguistic changes due to social pressures to differentiate one set of believers from another, or else pressures on religious specialist classes (akin to brahmins or druids) to maintain some distinctive ritual language that they alone have full access to?
That was probably a lot of brain vomit, apologies. 😂
It's kind of interesting that in both Nordic mythology (Tyr) and Early Vedic mythology (Dyaus Pitr) the deities that evolved from the original Indo European chief god (Dyeus Phater) both had become afterthoughts in their respective pantheons by the time they were recorded. It makes one wonder if there was some mythological cross pollination going on between Proto-Germanic speakers and Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers that the other branches didn't partake in.
There's a reason the notsees were so interested in India
I am fairly certain that Cregganford talks about that in a video.
I highly doubt however that Dyeus Phater was ever a “true” chief god among the early Indo-European speaking peoples; may have been with some groups, but knowing that the early Indo-European pantheon was most likely not a dogmatic or unified idea, it could have gone many ways.
@@tylerbrubaker6642What's your distinction between a "chief god" and a _"true_ chief god", and what's piquing your skepticism here (so to speak)?
("Well, it _could_ have been otherwise" is valid, of course; I'm just curious whether there's anything in particular that makes you doubt it.)
@@Kveldred well to say that this sky father figure was a chief god in the Indo European pantheon is a bit weak in general if I’m being completely honest(who knows I might be wrong). After all we know that Zeus as far as the Greek pantheon went, he was. But as to the proto-Indo European speaking peoples on the Russian steppe, it is completely unknown to know what kind of role he had at all in the religion. Now as to your question about the true chief god vs chief god, I’m referring to how these rolls changed during the indo european migrations, languages mixed, peoples mixed, so did other gods. But I imagine they were also changing before the migrations considering that these traditions had no societal norms like ours do today, they were just transmitted through word of mouth. That’s my reasoning anyway.
As always, educational interesting and entertaining. Thank you. The great views are a bonus. ❤
I very much appreciate what I've seen/heard of your work on this platform, and I'll be purchasing your audiobook so that I can listen while I work, and joining your patreon at the meager level I can afford.
That was a great view! Thanks for these videos!
Considering he gets one of the days of the week up over here, I don't remember learning anything about him in school beyond maybe being god of this or that.
A lot of history between the Roman times up in Germania and when the Norse made their presence known across Europe, true. And almost none of it written down by anyone. Certainly no contemporary theological texts up here. So for a god to go form a leading position to almost forgotten in those centuries? Sure. So much is forgotten sadly.
One theory I heard was that Tyr, being a war god, maybe had a taboo associated with his real name, and thus the people called him “Tyr” or “the god”. To refer to him without invoking his wrath.
Edit: this is just a conjecture and not at all proved in any way nor does it have acumen
Could be. It happened before to good old Tetragrammaton, and substituting synonyms for powerful entities (like bears, wolves) was a wide-spread custom in the North Germanic culture.
I have heard this was the case with the bear too in a lot of European societies, it was called by various nicknames to avoid summoning it with the true name.
@@varjovirta3085I think his reconstructed Proto-Germanic name was Tiwaz, so that sounds pretty likely. Though, thinking about it, it’s weird that both Luwian and Proto-Germanic would get to the same T start and “az” suffix from the original Proto-Indo-European “Deywas”, so I guess it could just be something else that coincidentally sounds the same? But, it sounds so much like Deywas, I would say it is probably from that same root?
I agree. Proof of that could be his many names. Some of which were used during roughly the same historical times. Latin - Mars Thingsus/Proto Norse - Týr/Tīwaʀ, Proto-Germanic - Tīwaz - Gothic - Tiews/Tīus - Old English/Germanic - Tīw/Ziu
Also, look up the Ribe skull fragment. It's where I took the Runes in my name from, which were transitional between Elder and Younger Futhark - High-Tiuur.
So I've heard the argument that in Norway/Sweden/Denmark (though maybe not so much Iceland) that from the pre-Christian era there are or were far more settlements named for Tyr and Thor than Odin, and that's the evidence that those two were more important among the earlier Norse and Germanic peoples than Odin. Is this the case and if so, is this what the "bearded guru" set are basing their stance on?
There are way more places named after Thor than Odin, but Odin has more places named after him than Tyr. Most places named after Tyr are in Denmark and southern Sweden. Places named after Odin are a more spread out.
It should be added, though, that places named for gods are not originally names of settlements but names of hills, woods, springs and other terrain features. Settlement names, on the other hand, may contain a person's name which again may contain a god's name but that is a different matter.
I'm seeing a few comments here suggesting that Tyr lost his supposed status as the highest god of the Germanic pantheon as a result of losing his hand, and I'm awfully confused by this. What I mean is that I don't understand what they're trying to add to this converstion with such suggestions. Are they assuming a euhemerist framework in which Tyr is based of a real historical king or chief who lost his hand and thus his right to rule? If not, how does trying to figure this out from _within the myth_ help? That's not how this works, at least not if we're working with Tyr as a cult object rather than Tyr as a literary character.
yes, enjoyed the content, especially the view, thanks for the break into Norse mythology/linguistics as always (I just come for the intro of the bison herd really)
“A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.” (-Hume), but generally folks are extremely reluctant to do that. They prefer exciting and clever speculation.
getting a like for the content and bonus points for that location. Been there myself actually. serentiy all around.
I always wondered about the whole Aesir/Vanir divide. Is there a consensus on the origin? I always assumed that at some point in the distant past, one Germanic group conquered or assimilated another ethnic group and just absorbed their gods into the pantheon.
I figured the Æsir are the Indo-Europeans and the Vanir are the Sámi or some group who was there before the Bronze age arrival of the Indo-Europeans. But could be something more recent and closely related as you say.
@@alianna8806I doubt the Vanir had anything to do with the Sami, as they were shamanic and didn't recognize pantheons the way IE did. I would wager the Vanir were the group of gods in the region prior to the arrival of a more recently "Germanic" pantheon
@@edmundblackadder6698 It would be the Germanic perception of the Sámi, not their totally historically accurate beliefs. The Norse many not have known all about their practices. But it's one theory.
@@alianna8806 At the time of the arrival of the indo-europeans (corded ware / battle-axe culture (Aesir) ) there were no sami in scandinavia. The only group(s) present would be the funnelbeaker culture (Vanir) & the pitted ware culture (Jötnar).
@@John-un3lj Interesting I'll have to look into those timelines. I thought the Sámi were already there.
Informative, thank you 👍
How much do you think pop culture sources such as Dungeons and Dragons influenced the tendency of non-academics and pseudo-academics to try to pigeonhole gods with certain archetypes or portfolios?
Thankyou❤ I like Tyr it was very informative.
Interpretato roman verison of the english weekdays could have used Tiw to fill the mars role, and simultaneously used Woden as Mercury because who else would fill Mercury? I dont think just because Tiw was used for Tuesday means he was once more important
Why do we expect the gods to be seen the same across the Norse world? Given the mostly oral traditions, would we not expect differences of belief in Iceland and Uppsala?
Has anyone done work on this?
Why was Tyr important enough to have a day of the week named after him?
The day wasn't named after Tyr; it was named after *Tīw.
@@noaht2 The day was named after Tiwaz, not after Tiw. Hence, Tiwaz dag. I used the old Norse name derived from Tiwaz rather than the old English name which is also derived from Tiwaz, because this is an old Norse related channel. I am glad you understood and weren't just being pedantic.
Excellent video. I know I'm late to the party, and that the professor touches the on the meaning in his video, but Týr's name is not *directly* cognate to Jupiter or Zeus. Instead, it comes from a different derivation of the same root. This derivation simply meant 'god'.
Juppiter
Thanks so much. You talk about Tyr having evolved from the early Roman Empire till the Viking age, but aren’t we taking about different Germanic cultures as well? Is there any way to tease out what may be differences introduced by time from differences across Germanic groups?
We can't say anything definitively, the most we can do is speculate from the scant evidence we have. By example place names, genealogies listing gods, and things like that.
Like you’ve mentioned before: we’re looking at clusters of beliefs that were most likely not dogmatic; the idea that Tyr may have had a more important role is plausible, but again it was never a “true” idea that would have been consistent throughout the ages of the Germanic pantheon. In regards to the Roman interpretation of Mars/?Tyr?, it’s really unclear, like you mentioned that Tyr may have just been a title for a god rather than a staple name for a god. So for instance how do we know that this mars equivalent was really Tyr?? For all we know it could have been Donar/Thor, which, in my opinion at least, seems more plausible. Thanks for the insight as always Dr. Crawford and thank you doubly for showing us the beauty of your home.
By the logic people have for Tyr being the Chief Norse God, the demonic Divs from Persian myth should be viewed as higher gods than Ahura Mazda.
Dyeus descendants retain their supernatural association, but people throughout time have picked their favorite gods to win. Like when YHWH won out over Jupiter in Rome.
All I’m hearing is that in a few thousand years there’s a possibility I will be misunderstood as an aspect of the popular god ‘Chris Evans’ because my name is Kevin.
I'm pretty sure this is a form of survivor bias.
We can see in other very old religions that they shift the importance of gods at a very specific point; the invention of writing, with the god who invents or discovers writing suddenly becoming much much more important. Early writing is basicly magic and it must have had a gigantic impact on the societies that discovered it. The Babylonians had a similair shift, as did the Phoenicians. The most important gods before that are very often gods associated with speaking law/judges. Which makes sense as early societies mostly rever their lawspeakers. When the Romans encountered the Germanic tribes further north than just those along the Rhine they noticed two things: the extreme commitment of soldiers to their leaders, calling them 'commitatus' and that the most popular god was Mars, which they called Tyr (or some other earlier variant of that name). As Romans always do when they encounter other cultures they just assume they are misguided and worship the same gods, but with different names. And that makes sense, the most important god is likely associated with the most important aspect of life. It explains why sedentary people all worship raingods as their most or one of their most important gods.
And of course survivor bias... the god associated with writing is obviously more likely to be regarded as most important in written sources...
There's also something odd going on with almost all civilisations having stories about how they got fire from the gods and that it is what made them truly distinct and smart, as compared to beasts. But none seem to actively worship the fire god or thank him for it. Most well preserved is of course the myths of Prometheus, who quite literally turns humans into actual humans, yet he is punished for it and receives no worship
How did that happen with Babylonians?
@@josephpercy1558 Nomadic too, Tapati or a cognate name was the main deity of the Scythians.
It didn't. Nabu is the Babylonian god of writing and became the most popular god in the Iron Age but that was thousands of years after the invention of writing in Mesopotamia and Nabu was never head of the pantheon. The actual pantheon head Bel Marduk became unpopular as he was seen as too distant and powerful compared to his son Nabu but Nabu was still invoked as Bel's representative even after he appropriated all the direct worship, just like all the Catholic saints who were considered more approachable than the Catholic god were never in a position of actually displacing the chief god.
He's even more wrong with the Pheonicians whose writing god is just an imported version of Thoth and was never a chief god. @@ur-inannak9565
@@AC-dk4fp Yeah it didnt seem to make sense to me, because I know it not to be true of Sumerians as well. I think Woden rose to prominence because of the extreme violence and uncertainty of the migration period if anything.
I remember the video about the silver button featuring Tyr vs. “Fenrir” found in Denmark. Its interesting that apparently-at some point-Tyr was more widely worshipped in Denmark rather than Sweden (where the cult of Odin as chief god seems to have originated) or Norway, which is where most of the Icelandic colonisers came from (there are at least seventeen place-names after Tyr in Denmark vs. at least one in Norway and none elsewhere). Maybe if more Danish traditions had survived into the modern day we would know more about Tyr as his own entity.
I thought "can not carry well with two" meant he couldn't fight well even he had two hands, which would fit in with the rest of the insults.
You know, Tyr's role as a war god might not be so far off, in the Poetic Edda, we are given a small glimpse to Tyr's role as a war god through a small stanza in Sigrdrífumál that states placing his rune on a weapon.
With the Prose Edda Tyr is described as "most valiant" and having "power over victory in battles" so this idea of Tyr being a war god is not so farfetched. Of course, there are many interpretations to this and I am no expert in Old Norse. So, if anyone would understand this it is Jackson Crawford.
I think the road does add to the view. What can we learn from place and/or personal names? Are there any personal names that include Odin's name? Or Tyr's? I know there seem to be people named after Thor.
Thor is indeed way more common in personal names. There is one name, Odinkar, which is the name of a local Queen's father from around 900 AD and also the name of a bishop from around 1000 AD, both in southern Jutland. I cannot think of any name with Týr.
The word Tyrant is a very interesting link for me especially as it's meaning (before negative connotations) is absolute ruler.
That's most assuredly a pure coincidence. There are only so many sounds and syllables around. The more probable connection is the one between the Germanic Tiwaz and the Greek Dios or Roman Deus. Tyr is a Scandinavian short form. Scandinavian tend to shorten words. Compare their languages to German and you'll know what I mean.
@sebastianlucius1259
Yep, I meant looking into the etymology of Tyrant from Greek and before then ( Lydian), it means lord, ruler etc
@@zoymills9868 Really? I didn't know that. My gutter Greek isn't good enough for that. :)
Tyr = Ar-teer, Arthur. Sky god, opposite of the sun god. The sky was torn open and tears rained down upon the earth. On a Tuesday.
@@hermanhale9258 is that not rain on a Thursday - Ar Thur :)
Is that longs peak in the back ground?
Wake up babe new Dr. Jackson Crawford vid dropped
*deywos v. *dyews. it seems the latter is the father and the former references a figure that usually (but not always) merges.
Wow are we sure the Aesir don't actually live in the Colorado rockies?
What is the story I've heard of where Týr is the father of Baldur? Is there any weight to this story?
“The big-bearded pagan gurus and their 19th century spiritual ancestors - now let’s hear from our sponsor Grimfrost!”😂
tyr has one hand, odin hasone eye, is there a third that also sacrifiec or lost half of a pair?
It’s interesting for me to think of how a god may be demoted. Were Ouranos and Chronos literally the chief gods for some earlier culture
That were displaced by the sky god Zeus? I can’t remember where I got that idea, but I don’t think I just made it up. What was Chronos the god of anyway? Not time. I think even the ancient Greeks got confused about that.
Anyway, it makes me wonder if Tyr was demoted simply by coming into contact with another group of people who worshiped Odin or Thor (are we sure Thor isn’t a cognate?) and those people were more powerful.
He's the most _heroic_ figure, or tied for it, of any of the gods in mythology.
Wasn't the Tyr rune used on swords as a "victory rune"? E.g. Sigrdrífumál
I like the idea that he very well could have been the Chief Sky Father deity of the Germanic peoples simply because of his name, evolved from Dyeus Pater. Sadly it (like much of the early Germanic Religion) is lost to the mists of time.
Is it true that the name ''Tyr'' is related to the name ''Deus'' or even ''Seifur'', the head god of the Greeks and the Romans?
As a big bearded pagan (not a guru, oh well) I think proto-Tyr if you will was a far more important god than Viking Age Tyr, and that his only remaining main story of losing his hand is symbolic of this fall. Perhaps the cult of proto-Tyr lost a few too many battles/wars and it was seen as weakness while the cult of Odin was winning battle after battle so he was seen as more powerful. After all who would you pray to, the god who's followers wins 5/10 battles or the one who wins 8/10 battles?
Interesting hot take that Tyr is basically just a left over god with less importance to the Norse people, especially considering he is THE only god with a rune named directly after him being Tiwaz. You could make the argument that Thurisaz is a rune “named” after Thor, but it’s more of a dedication considering it implies an action (Thor is as).
I think we just have a loss of information on Teiwaz/Tyr within the void never to return, considering he is etymologically directly cognate with Deiwas/Dyeus of the older PIE pantheon.
But then again I’m no expert of course, just a laymen’s opinion.
Do you know that Tyr was relegated to Tyrol?
LOL. Actually, Tyröl is what they burned in lanterns during services.
He will die at the hands of Garmr, the dog of the underworld. Until then, according to some legends, he will live isolated in an area among the mountains that will later be called Tyrol in modern times, in honor of him.
Hey. I live in South Tyrol 😊 ciao.
The generic-ness of Tyr makes me wonder if the name was part of a long title or invocation for Thor akin to the stylings of later kings and emperors.
Tór, god father in the sky, god of the thing, true protector, brave rider…
If there was a taboo about saying his name, then the title would start with Tyr pater…
When Tyr lost his hand, why other gods laughed at him? Bravest of them all (or stupidly brave? person, who was previously great, but was now worth of nothing?), yet others didn't take him seriously.
Having read mostly Greco-Roman myths, but some Germanic and Celtic myths having percolated down through pop culture to me, I don't think anyone can accuse IE gods in general of being particularly wise...
I feel Tyr must have been more important than Odin because of being first in the days of the week. Thor being son of O and then Frig, wife of O. Seems like an order of importance going on.
The order of the days of the week was influenced by the Babylonian planets. The german day names are all translated from Latin, no re-ordering happened but sunday became the first day of the week for Christianity reasons. Monday then became the first day in the 20th century due to the labour movement but only became internationally recognised as such in 1988. @@zoymills9868
If you combine archeological findings with the myths, a very different picture emerges. From what I can tell, gods were the primary concern of the elite / ruling classes. Common folk seemed to focus more on the more animistic aspects of a faith and would be far more recognizable across the regions. They seemed to focus more on things that brought good harvests, protection of their livestock, health, etc. Gods were rulers and thus, they were concerned with the ruling classes. It's an interesting theory that seems to me at this point, difficult, if not impossible to prove.
Yes. There are other sources that give a somewhat different picture of early medieval Germanic belief and practice as well. Like early Christian law codes in England banning the worship of trees. So while Woden (Odin) and Thunor (Thor) may have been Anglo-Saxon gods, and probably featured in similar myths like those we get from their closely related Norse cousins, it seems like ordinary people must have doing things like worshipping trees. If they weren’t doing it, why legislate against it? I feel like “worship” may not 100% convey the nature of what was going on, and was probably a Christian framing, but presumably people were making offerings to nature spirits at trees or something like that?
Jackson is great, but I do think if one wants an overall picture of Norse or Germanic belief, he is a bit overly restrictive to the formal texts, while there are quite a lot of other sources out there that shift the picture somewhat of how the whole thing worked. That said, his interpretation regarding Tyr in the Viking Age is probably the best we’ve got. I mean, there could have been other myths that didn’t survive that make Tyr more important (though I doubt the father god above Odin), but if we don’t have any evidence of them, then we have to go with what we have got.
All the gods laughed, except Tyr - he lost his hand!😂
I should also say, Jackson, that he seems to be of some importance in the early 8th century. See the Ribe skull fragment 725 A.D. Also, it seems with the discovery of the Viking burial ground found on the Estonian island of Saaremaa pushed the start of the Viking age back to between 650 and 700 A.D.
I suppose if the poetic edda verion of Tyr is something like a parody, we can't really guess what it is a parody of. But isn't also it true that most surviving signs of worship are for Thor, with much less for Odin, so talking so much about Odin compared to Thor is also a bit of a modern distortion based on Odin being more enigmatic?
I heard the only gods there's evidence of worship are Odin, Thor, and Freyr + respective goddesses
I'm not so sure Tyr was that unimportant. Even if he didn't have the status of the Third, a day of the week is named after him. I suppose we have no possibility to get further into this without speculation.
Maybe neopagans like him more because he's way less creepy than the One-eyed. Getting an idea of Boelwerk's thoughts and deeds can be quite unsettling for a cultural Christian just looking for a more venturesome faith. It's way more comfortable to stick with the brave and just and noble one.
So little information about so much, it’s frustrating as a heathen to think about what was lost.
Could Tyr be Odin?
Tiwaz, Sky-Father of the Gods.
Doesn't "Týr" come from "deywós", which means ðe same as "god" and literally "heavenly", whereas "Zeus" comes from "Dyēws", which means ðe same as "heaven"?
The important story about Tyr is the story where he lost (sacrificed) his hand/arm.
Maybe that's also the story about why he lost his status?
You can't have a king who isn't physically perfect. You can't have a crippled leader.
But then Odin is also crippled. He lost an eye.
He can still see with both eyes though. Odin's gave his eye to Mimir's Well in return for wisdom and intelligence. Tyr gave his hand to chain the chaos monster.
I don't know, maybe I'm overreaching with this.
I like that interpretation. Very cool.
Myths involving changes of status aren't actual statements of religious history. Even in cases like the Enuma Elish which justifies the promotion of Marduk to head of the Babylonian pantheon the actual plot of the Epic doesn't dramatise the actual religious changes since the actual rivals of Marduk for chief god postition, Ishtar, Shamash, Enlil and Amartu don't appear in the Epic at all. Instead Marduk's rival is a random monster called Kingu who doesn't appear anywhere else.
In the Hittite Song of Going Forth Anu loses his position of King of the Gods after being castrated but he's an imported Sumerian god who was never actually worshipped as the chief god by the Hittites and wasn't even the primary head of any of the various competing Sumerian pantheons. Hesiod imports the castration of Anu into his Theogyny as the grandfather of Zeus under the translated name Ouranos who also has no actual role in real Greek religion except as ephitets of Zeus and Aphrodite.
Osiris is also replaced by his son Horus after being left castrated but in actual Egyptian religious history Horus was the original chief god who latter god demoted to Osirus son rather than his uncle. Osiris' importance in Egyptian religion just increased until he was combined into a syncretic chief god by the Ptolemaic dynasty.
The meaning of Tyr's hand loss may have disqualified him from a high position in the pantheon but intended meaning just can't be mapped on to religious history.
Didn't the Romans swear by Jove? Are we actually sure the exalted status of Zeus and Jupiter reflects PIE times?
Jove and Jupiter is the same guy, though
Let´s consider the names of the weekdays.
Sunday: the sun being the first god in Scandinavia, dating back 7000 years or so.
Monday or more correctly Moonday, as early as Sunday, but female I guess?
Tuesday that is Tirs day.
Wednesday is Odins day,. Thursday is Thors day, Friday is Freyas day.
Since Tir is showing up before Odin and rest of the gang in the weekdays I would consider hime the first of the "person" gods. Sun and moon existed way before.
Freyr, not Freya
Who’s “Tir”?
Tyr is my Primary, so I’ll always watch anything about him.
Well if you think that Tyr is top of the hill I believe that the important perspective of him is the fact that he self sacffices himself, or his hand for the benefit of his society. He is giving a hand for the stalling of Ragnarok if you like which is a small price to pay but nonetheless a heavy one. These are not the actions of a 'war' god. Admittedly he is a martial deity but one with the personal aspects of a protector rather than a battle hungry deity. He actually shows, in the Eddas, his honour and bravery is more important than battlefield prowess. Of course we only have a few sources about him but that's my take.
Tyr is from what I understand the God of War and justice I kind of look at him as the general for odin
Drawn to stories of Tyr so always fascinated to hear new perspectives on his place on the pantheon ... perhaps its cos i have a beard! (Not a Viking LARPer though haha)
I think you mean storY ;)
❤
I've also heard a lot of conversation around Tyr as a guardian of community, do you know if that has any roots in the lore?
Maybe there wasn't a real hierarchy as some Indo-European had it latter. The color blue isn't more powerful than say red.
I agree with Jackson to an extent. Notice what he's saying, that Týr is not very important in the Eddas, not that he wasn't important in other times or sources. The Eddas are only two sources. There could have been dozens of other lost Old Norse sources where he was very important. I think Týr was very important in the Iron/Vendel era and continued to be important in the Viking age. More important than perhaps Jackson feels he was, but not as important as the "big beard gurus"😅 say he was. In any event, i feel he was important simply because of the amount of place names that include his name. I think he was more important in the wider Germanic paganism than Norse though.
San Juans? I thought that was The Lonely Mountain in the background and you were in Middle Earth... oh wait.... Midgard is Middle Earth... so are dragons real?
I value Tyr in the same regard as Thor. They are both good to talk with. Odin is the chief leader but he’s so unpredictable. I’ve received three different outcomes. #1 Recieved what I’ve asked for #2 Recieved deceit #3 Recieved silence. Tyr and Thor are different and it may come down to the years I’ve kept that connection open. But I’ve recieved what I’ve asked for with a trial to complete as proof that their blessings are being put to use.