I recall the praise given to the LSO/Kertesz recording. I have a number of LP and CD versions of this wonderful symphony, the latest being the version from Fischer/ Budapest Festival Orchestra. The symphony is fine enough to make them all worth having.
The cover of the single was quite effective. Kubelik standing in a suit an tie, on the streets of NYC, with the Pan Am building in the background. Great cover!
As one of those across the water, I can assure you I have never regarded the United States as a land without culture. You've given us some of the finest musicians, writers, artists throught all the arts, AND (though they were of German origin - as you say the USA's culture owes a great deal to Europe) the Marx Brothers, George Burns, and offered refuge to emigrés from Einstein, to Rachmaninoff, to Béla Lugosi. Culturally, the USA has nothing to be ashamed of: politically - well... haven't we all?
I have that recording coupled with the 8 and I love them both. Europeans even have prejudice with fellow europeans. I'm from southern europe and I once met a Dutch girl that said to me that southern europeans ( Portugal, Italy, Spain) are not real europeans. I politely reminded her that there was a time in history that southern europeans were making roads, aqueducts, bridges, bath houses with hot water, while the "Dutch" were making straw houses. She was very uppset and walked away
Many thanks. I am fond of this but like you love the energy of Bernstein’s NYPhilharmonic performance. Can’t wait for you to do Shostakovich’s major symphonies.
I have this one on LP and agree it's awesome. However, my personal reference recording is the one of the Brabants Orkest under Hein Jordans, which was released on LP by Philips' sublabel Fontana in the 1960s. Hein Jordans was an amazing conductor who built up the Brabants Orkest to nearly the same level as the Concertgebouw Orchestra in the 1950s and 1960s, just like Rogier van Otterloo did with the Residentie Orkest during the same time. He started off with a couple of professional musicians and a bunch of amateurs around 1950, and by the end of his reign in 1979 had turned a former amateur ochestra into a top notch recording machine.
@@DavesClassicalGuide That said, your accidental error has introduced me to Szell/CzechPO. Listening now. Sound is tolerable for it's age, and it's a very fine performance. Yes, it had been superceded many times since, but still....it's worth a listen.
Arthur Fiedler actually conducted the Boston Symphony, not the Pops, for his Dvorak 9. That meant the first string section leaders from the BSO and considerably more prestige. Nice acknowledgment of his importance to the city, after decades of condescension from the BSO, who weren't ashamed to cash the big checks Fiedler's Pops earned for them.
When it comes to Dvorak's New World Symphony, I feel cheated when the repeat isn't done in the first movement. Guess that's just me, though. It's still a great symphony. It must be, even Arturo Toscanini recorded it. Thanks Dave
Thank you as always. I often listen to you before work starts or on my way home (when maybe I could just be listening to music instead.) Your recent talks on Dvorak's 9th & the Verdi Requiem brought up a question I have, and it's a little weird. How important is the use of silence--and echoes--in music? Depending on where a piece is performed & recorded, powerful chords & meaningful passages with silences--like in Dvorak's 9th, the Verdi Requiem, Sibelius' 5th--have a big impact for me when the place has great echo, or no impact when the place has little to no echo. For me, the echo is an important part of the music itself. Would you be interested in talking about that, if you haven't already?
I've had the Kubelik BPO CD for years. I also had the and thanks to my dad! Dvorak 9 Fiedler Boston Symphony was the orchestra and it's the only symphony recording Fiedler ever made correct?
Dave, I think it would be so enlightening if you would do a Fabulous Concert Programs series for all of the Dvorak symphonies. I'm thinking especially of the first six, which don't get enough exposure, and I'm intrigued how you would set them off with other works to best advantage.
I like also 7th symphony with the interesting rhythms...I wonder as non-musician, what the musicians thought when practicing some funny rhythms. and maybe David may make interview with some musicians about practicing various music.
Mention of the Fiedler/Boston New World brings to mind my personal inclination to avoid recordings of certain well-known symphonies that observe repeats. Just recently that includes the Bernstein/ Vienna Brahms 1st and the Ozawa/Saito Kinen Schubert 9th. You may have a strong opinion to the contrary on this, but it might be a topic worth exploring on why there maybe a strong division of opinion on this. Aside from the obvious influence of imprinting one’s first exposure to a given work, I’ve usually viewed the repeat as a disruption to the dramatic flow of a work, much like repeating a scene from a play or movie or a paragraph in a novel.
It depends on the work. You can't generalize. The "drama," such as it is in sonata-form movements, occurs mainly in the development sections and codas, and so properly speaking a repeat can't interrupt something that hasn't happened yet. But not all composers understood that or wrote that way after the classical period. The repeat in the first movement of Dvorak 9 is a plus for several reasons: (1) the brevity of the movement overall; (2) the abundance of thematic material in the exposition, which certainly bears repetition; (3) the fact that Dvorak had just completed two symphonies with through-composed first movements, and so would not have asked for a repeat had he not wanted it. His intentions are perfectly clear.
This recording (Kubelik) may not the best recording but this is should be recording you must listen to if you want to understand this work So it maybe The Reference Recording as this concept.
Dear Mr Hurwitz! I would like to ask you to consider to make a talk about the reference recording of Brahms's 2nd symphony in D major Op. 73, and Schubert's Piano sonata in B flat D.960. Best wishes Fred from Kristianstad.
I know that this is the reference and there is little doubt that it is. But nothing, absolutely nothing, has ever blown me away like Bernstein's recording of the work. Wow! I don't want to play "favorites", but why isn't that the reference recording?
We knew The Beatles were British. We knew Olivia Newton John was from Australia; but do a significant portion of classical music buyers know what nationality the conductor is, or where he's from? How many can even picture what Rafael Kubelik looks like? I'm more than a novice and I can't. Is our host sure he has this right? Really enjoy the facts; but was this video more of a Docu drama?
Saying your average classical listener didn't know what he looked like was only the side dish. The main course is that most people don't know most conductors ethnic heritage any more than you know the.ethnic heritage of someone you see at Dairy Queen. Some like Bernstein and Toscanini it's obvious their heritage from their name. But Kubelik? Your average person wouldn't have any idea what nationality that name is. So unless the classical reviewers back then, talked about it a lot or were outrageously influential, I don't how much impact ethnic heritage would have. Do people look for Russian conductor Nutcracker cds because Tchaikovsky happened to be Russian. Or do they look for German conductors because the story was written by a German author? I think your average classicalal music buyer just chooses based on a name he might have heard of on tv, and when he sees the conductors name on the cover, it rings a bell. Or a conductor that's famous enough or "Hey I like that album cover, I think I'll get that one." Or look that one has a marked down price on it; I'll get this. But to the real diehard classical music buyers who knew he was Czech, it could have had some influence. Most conductors like Kubelik wwre not pictured on album covers very often at all like Bernstein, Fiedler etc.
Maybe Kubelik was also cosmopolitan as his father, to get opportunities, "za velkou mlákou" (on the other side of great puddle) 😄 but preferred a Czech culture, or contributing to it in some way. But it seems Czech music got the opportunities especially with people like Kubelik or Ančerl, Neuman. It seems Czech people appreciate it even more if it was appreciated "za velkou mlákou" (on the other side of great puddle).
Not sure this is a strong reference recording if you consider it is 2024 and there are conductors who have recorded the same symphony like (and this is by no means the only ones that stand out in some way) - Toscanini but mono does not get much consideration, Kertesz whose set of Dvorak Symphonies was the most economic for a long time, Solti (I know there is an issue with him in this forum), Dohnanyi and Cleveland in their prime, and others. I wonder if this series may be best described as acclaimed recordings one must consider. Then, we can all see if we have heard it and use it as a benchmark because it is worthy of the title. But that is different than being the one that has a unique stature as a reference recording - as I think some may agree that some works like this do not have a single reference recording unless it is mentioned in a group of them.
absolutely hilarious 😅 a music critic making fun of the reference recording concept lol especially true for this symphony where almost any recording sounds as good as any others
Indeed, that's the reference recording. To return to my comment on Barbirolli's Sibelius Symphony No. 2, I must confess that I do have a foundness for emotive conducting. From an early age onwards I've had that, and thus my next buy of a recording of the said piece should be rather Bernstein's 1962 one. As an youngster I bought Karajan's 1985 recording and played it many an evening in the car driving to and from evening courses listening to classical music. Those were the days indeed!
I get that this series is about reference recordings, but it rankles me that we need to cross the pond when there are so many excellent performances from orchestras in the US - not least the NYPO which gave the première...
I recall the praise given to the LSO/Kertesz recording. I have a number of LP and CD versions
of this wonderful symphony, the latest being the version from Fischer/ Budapest Festival Orchestra.
The symphony is fine enough to make them all worth having.
The cover of the single was quite effective. Kubelik standing in a suit an tie, on the streets of NYC, with the Pan Am building in the background. Great cover!
Thank you very much for introducing me to the Fricsay recording
Fricsay was the first I heard, I listened to that album so many times
@@bobmeyers186 that’s great
As one of those across the water, I can assure you I have never regarded the United States as a land without culture. You've given us some of the finest musicians, writers, artists throught all the arts, AND (though they were of German origin - as you say the USA's culture owes a great deal to Europe) the Marx Brothers, George Burns, and offered refuge to emigrés from Einstein, to Rachmaninoff, to Béla Lugosi. Culturally, the USA has nothing to be ashamed of: politically - well... haven't we all?
Gosh, don't fall into that trap of actually taking the European Mensch as being superior. It's near to a Groucho joke that one
Thanks, Dave. Indeed a RR! I’m sure the iconic picture sleeve makes up half of its merit.
I have that recording coupled with the 8 and I love them both.
Europeans even have prejudice with fellow europeans. I'm from southern europe and I once met a Dutch girl that said to me that southern europeans ( Portugal, Italy, Spain) are not real europeans. I politely reminded her that there was a time in history that southern europeans were making roads, aqueducts, bridges, bath houses with hot water, while the "Dutch" were making straw houses. She was very uppset and walked away
Many thanks. I am fond of this but like you love the energy of Bernstein’s NYPhilharmonic performance. Can’t wait for you to do Shostakovich’s major symphonies.
I have this one on LP and agree it's awesome. However, my personal reference recording is the one of the Brabants Orkest under Hein Jordans, which was released on LP by Philips' sublabel Fontana in the 1960s. Hein Jordans was an amazing conductor who built up the Brabants Orkest to nearly the same level as the Concertgebouw Orchestra in the 1950s and 1960s, just like Rogier van Otterloo did with the Residentie Orkest during the same time.
He started off with a couple of professional musicians and a bunch of amateurs around 1950, and by the end of his reign in 1979 had turned a former amateur ochestra into a top notch recording machine.
Fascinating and informative - the sort of stuff that can make UA-cam so worthwhile.
When you said George Szell and the Czech Phil, I immediately went into search mode. Nothing turned up. May I assume you meant Cleveland?
Never mind. I finally found it...recorded in 1937.
Yes, but I mean Cleveland. You were right!
@@DavesClassicalGuide 😌
@@DavesClassicalGuide That said, your accidental error has introduced me to Szell/CzechPO. Listening now. Sound is tolerable for it's age, and it's a very fine performance. Yes, it had been superceded many times since, but still....it's worth a listen.
One bench forward for yourself there 😉
Arthur Fiedler actually conducted the Boston Symphony, not the Pops, for his Dvorak 9. That meant the first string section leaders from the BSO and considerably more prestige. Nice acknowledgment of his importance to the city, after decades of condescension from the BSO, who weren't ashamed to cash the big checks Fiedler's Pops earned for them.
It was his only recording with the BSO.
When it comes to Dvorak's New World Symphony, I feel cheated when the repeat isn't done in the first movement. Guess that's just me, though. It's still a great symphony. It must be, even Arturo Toscanini recorded it. Thanks Dave
Thank you as always. I often listen to you before work starts or on my way home (when maybe I could just be listening to music instead.)
Your recent talks on Dvorak's 9th & the Verdi Requiem brought up a question I have, and it's a little weird. How important is the use of silence--and echoes--in music? Depending on where a piece is performed & recorded, powerful chords & meaningful passages with silences--like in Dvorak's 9th, the Verdi Requiem, Sibelius' 5th--have a big impact for me when the place has great echo, or no impact when the place has little to no echo.
For me, the echo is an important part of the music itself.
Would you be interested in talking about that, if you haven't already?
Thank you. I'll think about it.
I've had the Kubelik BPO CD for years. I also had the and thanks to my dad! Dvorak 9 Fiedler Boston Symphony was the orchestra and it's the only symphony recording Fiedler ever made correct?
Dave, I think it would be so enlightening if you would do a Fabulous Concert Programs series for all of the Dvorak symphonies. I'm thinking especially of the first six, which don't get enough exposure, and I'm intrigued how you would set them off with other works to best advantage.
Thank you. I will think about it.
I like also 7th symphony with the interesting rhythms...I wonder as non-musician, what the musicians thought when practicing some funny rhythms. and maybe David may make interview with some musicians about practicing various music.
Mention of the Fiedler/Boston New World brings to mind my personal inclination to avoid recordings of certain well-known symphonies that observe repeats. Just recently that includes the Bernstein/ Vienna Brahms 1st and the Ozawa/Saito Kinen Schubert 9th. You may have a strong opinion to the contrary on this, but it might be a topic worth exploring on why there maybe a strong division of opinion on this. Aside from the obvious influence of imprinting one’s first exposure to a given work, I’ve usually viewed the repeat as a disruption to the dramatic flow of a work, much like repeating a scene from a play or movie or a paragraph in a novel.
It depends on the work. You can't generalize. The "drama," such as it is in sonata-form movements, occurs mainly in the development sections and codas, and so properly speaking a repeat can't interrupt something that hasn't happened yet. But not all composers understood that or wrote that way after the classical period. The repeat in the first movement of Dvorak 9 is a plus for several reasons: (1) the brevity of the movement overall; (2) the abundance of thematic material in the exposition, which certainly bears repetition; (3) the fact that Dvorak had just completed two symphonies with through-composed first movements, and so would not have asked for a repeat had he not wanted it. His intentions are perfectly clear.
Thanks for a very interesting talk. This referense recording series is without a doubt one of your most fascinating series yet.
This recording (Kubelik) may not the best recording but this is should be recording you must listen to if you want to understand this work So it maybe The Reference Recording as this concept.
No, it's not, even if it were clear what "understand this work" actually means. But it's an excellent performance.
Dear Mr Hurwitz! I would like to ask you to consider to make a talk about the reference recording of Brahms's 2nd symphony in D major Op. 73, and Schubert's Piano sonata in B flat D.960.
Best wishes Fred from Kristianstad.
You don't need to ask.
I know that this is the reference and there is little doubt that it is. But nothing, absolutely nothing, has ever blown me away like Bernstein's recording of the work. Wow! I don't want to play "favorites", but why isn't that the reference recording?
I think I touched on some of the reasons.
We knew The Beatles were British. We knew Olivia Newton John was from Australia; but do a significant portion of classical music buyers know what nationality the conductor is, or where he's from? How many can even picture what Rafael Kubelik looks like? I'm more than a novice and I can't. Is our host sure he has this right? Really enjoy the facts; but was this video more of a Docu drama?
I'm sure.
There are at least a few of us still around who know what Kubelik looked like. Not to mention a great many others.
Saying your average classical listener didn't know what he looked like was only the side dish. The main course is that most people don't know most conductors ethnic heritage any more than you know the.ethnic heritage of someone you see at Dairy Queen. Some like Bernstein and Toscanini it's obvious their heritage from their name. But Kubelik? Your average person wouldn't have any idea what nationality that name is. So unless the classical reviewers back then, talked about it a lot or were outrageously influential, I don't how much impact ethnic heritage would have. Do people look for Russian conductor Nutcracker cds because Tchaikovsky happened to be Russian. Or do they look for German conductors because the story was written by a German author? I think your average classicalal music buyer just chooses based on a name he might have heard of on tv, and when he sees the conductors name on the cover, it rings a bell. Or a conductor that's famous enough or "Hey I like that album cover, I think I'll get that one." Or look that one has a marked down price on it; I'll get this. But to the real diehard classical music buyers who knew he was Czech, it could have had some influence. Most conductors like Kubelik wwre not pictured on album covers very often at all like Bernstein, Fiedler etc.
Smetana: Ma vlast (My Fatherland) - No. 2. Vltava (Moldau), Conductor: Rafael Kubelík
kubelik, havel, forman - 3 in 1 :)
Maybe Kubelik was also cosmopolitan as his father, to get opportunities, "za velkou mlákou" (on the other side of great puddle) 😄
but preferred a Czech culture, or contributing to it in some way.
But it seems Czech music got the opportunities especially with people like Kubelik or Ančerl, Neuman.
It seems Czech people appreciate it even more if it was appreciated "za velkou mlákou" (on the other side of great puddle).
Not sure this is a strong reference recording if you consider it is 2024 and there are conductors who have recorded the same symphony like (and this is by no means the only ones that stand out in some way) - Toscanini but mono does not get much consideration, Kertesz whose set of Dvorak Symphonies was the most economic for a long time, Solti (I know there is an issue with him in this forum), Dohnanyi and Cleveland in their prime, and others. I wonder if this series may be best described as acclaimed recordings one must consider. Then, we can all see if we have heard it and use it as a benchmark because it is worthy of the title. But that is different than being the one that has a unique stature as a reference recording - as I think some may agree that some works like this do not have a single reference recording unless it is mentioned in a group of them.
I'm sure. These are all reasonable questions, but there was a reference recording for this work and this was the one.
Fascinating stuff. Another one to obtain.
absolutely hilarious 😅
a music critic making fun of the reference recording concept lol
especially true for this symphony where almost any recording sounds as good as any others
Well, that's no really true, but there are a remarkable number of excellent versions out there.
I would be quite interested in a "ripe for reissue" talk about Eugen Jochum's DG boxes!
Indeed, that's the reference recording. To return to my comment on Barbirolli's Sibelius Symphony No. 2, I must confess that I do have a foundness for emotive conducting. From an early age onwards I've had that, and thus my next buy of a recording of the said piece should be rather Bernstein's 1962 one. As an youngster I bought Karajan's 1985 recording and played it many an evening in the car driving to and from evening courses listening to classical music. Those were the days indeed!
Yes! Exactly the one.
I get that this series is about reference recordings, but it rankles me that we need to cross the pond when there are so many excellent performances from orchestras in the US - not least the NYPO which gave the première...
I love the jab at the Dallas Cowboys. Meddling owner: they stink!!