Petrol v electric: Which is better at the same price? BMW 330i v i4
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- Опубліковано 13 тра 2024
- The argument against electric cars was always that they were more expensive than internal combustion cars. But, how do they stack up when they cost the same? The BMW i4 recently had a price cut which makes it cheaper than the BMW 330i - Paul Maric sets out to figure out if you should buy the 2024 BMW 330i or the 2024 BMW i4 eDrive30.
Hardness tester, noise and lane keeping results: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
More BMW content: www.carexpert.com.au/bmw/
More BMW 3 Series content: www.carexpert.com.au/bmw/3/
More BMW i4 content: www.carexpert.com.au/bmw/i4/
Skip Ahead:
Intro: 00:00
Exterior: 01:10
Interior: 04:42
Driving - 330i: 08:29
Driving - i4: 13:25
Skidpan: 19:37
Performance: 23:09
Verdict: 24:07
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#bmw #review #electric - Авто та транспорт
I'm on my 4th new BMW, this time an i4 eDrive 40. My previous cars were a 1997 E36 323i manual, (a wonderful driver's car), then a 2006 E90 325i auto (A horrible characterless car, I hated it), a 2015 F32 M Sport 428i (a fabulous car, but had lost the beautiful silky six), and now the i4.
Let me tell you I'm NEVER going back to an internal combustion engine car. I love the smoothness, the silence and the instant torque of my EV. It's not quite the well balanced beautifully planted open road tourer the 428i was, (there's no getting away from the weight of that battery even though it's situated low in the car), and the steering also feels more "wooden", but in every other way the electric car is a generation leap better.
Additionally running costs are much, much less; either solar panel subsidised at home, or free Chargefox charging, so far, with just an occasional need to charge at Evie or BP Pulse chargers.
Servicing is much cheaper too; there's nothing to do. Brake wear is negligible. Tyres will probably wear faster because of the additional weight.
My first 12 month service, as far as I could tell, was just to top up the windscreen washer fluid, plus, presumably, a quick check on the diagnostic computer.
There's so few wearing parts, I fail to understand why EV's depreciate faster than ICE vehicles.
I'm a total convert, and find it difficult to imagine that there will still be petrol and diesel powered cars being sold 15 years from now. They make no sense any more.
planet fooker
"Gooddayyyy I'm Paul" always does a good review
Love your work. Thinking outside the box
Just purchased an i4 e-drive35 absolutely wrapt with my purchase so much car for the price. Definitely make sure it suits your lifestyle/ commutes. this car choice was made due to the commute to work being perfect for an electric car. It was purchased via novated leasing so making use of all the benefits !
Grabbing the popcorn for the follow up vid on reactions, like the last time around 🤣
Hans Zinmer famous composer? Legendary composer! 🤭
I bet he's slapping his head and wondering why he put his name to this only for every single review to go on about it every single time.
@@siraff4461 deshi deshi basara basara! Imagine driving to that lol
@@educational-101 It completely boggles my mind to think that someone so famous and with such talent is probably now most widely known by a younger generation for making noises for electric cars.
He is a true legend but I fear a lot of people will just think of him as "the guy who makes the BMW noises".
I like that you included a little bit of fun in this review. Can't wait for ioniq 5 N donut test!
330i equivalent to i4E40.
This EV I4E35 (entry level), you reviewed would be equivalent to 320i.
Great review !!!!
100%, but they don’t sell the 320i new anymore.
@@aerienixthey do, I have a 2024 320i M sport
@@sleygtcnot in north america
Love your videos
Great video, love your u tube channel. I have ordered the I4 E40 would love to see the 2024 model tested with 19 inch wheels
I think the cars are subsidud in Australia, cause the I4 is $20k more expensive in Sweden, where we do not have that anymore. So saying EV's are cheaper are not really true. If taxpayers pay for the subsidues for your car, its cheaper.
That is an interesting strategy from BMW to get people into the electric i4 (unintentional probably, more to do with getting people to go for the 330i by removing the base model 3 series).
I appreciate that this was a fair and reasonable review. So few and far between these days.
Hey Paul,
How does FBT work for novated lease?
I thought the employer plays for that?
World class car reviews.
I would like a plug in hybrid with the same size engine, not a smaller one as most manufacturers do. Perfect for daily commute and highway driving without having to rely on faulty chargers and queueing.
The 330e is quicker than both of these. The engine doesn't have to be that big when it can be combined with the electric motor and deliver great performance together.
I switched from a petrol BMW to an i4 M50 with a daily 150km distance to commute. I appreciate the quietness and the uncompromising comfort. This reduces the stress a lot. If you can charge it at home you save a lot of money. For me an ICE car is history and plug in hybrid too much technical complexity. More engine parts, more possible faults.
Was the internal dB with composer Hanz?
The i4 35 is a great car for the price, havent seen a non m-sport vehicle option here in a long time!
Thanks Paul (great information etc as per usual) I’m sold - I’ll buy the i4- very impressive, by your comparisons 😄😄😄
Can you do a comparo between this i4 and the Tesla Model 3 Highlander?
Just bought a 330i and have been loving it!! Such an incredibly capable car that balances performance, comfort and efficiency perfectly. I like a firmer ride so the harsher suspension doesn’t bother me too much (it deals with bumps very well, almost like air suspension, which is the highlight imo). With a more urban driving focus I’ve been seeing fuel consumption figures between 7-8.5 L/100km but on the freeway it will get into the low 6’s with ease and when hyper-miling in eco pro mode I’ve seen as low as 3.6L/100km (albeit with a lot of downhill sections in the Dandenong mountains).
@@CAVALRY19D Just want to clarify that I'm not comparing my 330i to an i4 or any other BEV. Just simply sharing my ownership experience after about 1 month of having the car. I also never considered an EV when purchasing. Also not sure why you think people do 'a lot of driving' at 150 kph. We'd all be in jail if we did that (especially if we live in Australia haha)
@@eshanmirash2456 you need the Autobahn 🙂
@@CAVALRY19DI have the i4 m50 and the difference between driving 70 mph and 85 mph with efficiency is very minimal
I'm in sales and cover some 600-650km/wk. It would be impossible to have a half charge in the 'tank' and then get a call from a customer with an issue and have to race off to fix it...then turn around and hit the freeway to go home and not knowing what the freeway will be like. Range anxiety on top of sales anxiety is not going to work
on the other hand, people with your needs are no more than 10% (or indeed, 1%) of population. Or, go for a Lucid air/model S
@@USUG0absolutely. Average driver does 40km total to and from work daily. And most households are a two car household
If your doing 650km a week and driving back home each night realistically you would be charging at home over night and the car would be charged ready to go every morning. I totally agree evs are not logical for a lot of job roles but the one explained above sounds perfect for an efficient ev like a new model 3 long range.
You'd be fine with the right car (e.g Tesla model 3). I easily do 280 km per day in mine on a single charge and ive got a performance version and only charge to 80% every night. I could do 400km a day no problem if i had to.
Yeah, don’t get one.
Just a couple of points. Firstly I much prefer the hatch style, it's a lot more practical. And secondly, the screens on the BMWs look like an aftermarket product just added on. It's the same for many other manufacturers.
The one failing in this interesting test was you didn't provide a refuelling/recharging time comparison from low fuel/low battery warning to full/fully charged. For me, given that I travel long distances and love my road trips, i need to know just how much time will be spent when it is time to refuel away from home in a rural area.
Paul, excellent review as always “food for thought”!!!?? 😮😮😊😊
love ya video reviews and different comparisons...see you do a lot of 'thrashing' car vids, but as an EV owner would be interested to see what type of driving setup gives you better re-gen...longer range from charge ... max re-gen, 1 pedal driving, adaptive re-gen, adding a 5th wheel to only run a generator to charge?
Adding a fifth wheel to act as a generator would generate resistance, which the car would have to overcome with energy to power the motor. The fifth wheel would also add weight.
In terms of regen modes, the most aggressive regen setting will net you most additional range.
@@CarExpertAus Your answer would seem logical especially in city driving and it largely holds true between robots(traffic lights), however on highways and open road conditions I've found that the adaptive option works best as it allows the vehicle to coast when on slight declines or flat road driving, it'll also automatically regen on steeper declines or if there's slow moving traffic ahead of you, not sure if this holds true for other brands but BMW's motors(externally excited synchronous) seem to work well with this option.
would have liked to see more details around cost comparisons: side-by-side for year 20k km re (1) fuel, (2) tyres, (3) brakes, (4) insurance, (5) maintenance (6) time waiting for refueling
330i is obviously better, since you fill it up with petrol and in return it makes glorious noises!
The smile was much bigger on Paul's face on the skid pan in the 3 series.
10:46 BMW official technical specifications for the current 330i is "min. RON 91" and has been for years.
This M-Sport in not an M-Series, if it was a true M3 Competition, then yes: "Fuel RON 98 (min. RON 95)".
E;lectric is the way to go especially if your majority of driving in around cities.
Great comparison. Had an EV for 18 months now, Polestar 2 LRDM in my case, and will never buy another ICE vehicle for general daily use. Just won't; not because of costs but because around town, in traffic, the EV is just way nicer to drive and own. No petrol station visits, pretty much no maintenance, warm up (or cool down) remotely before getting in the car, etc. Now for road trips different story, we have a Mercedes GLE as well and use that for trips.
This might be pretty controversial but I like it when a vehicle has wheels and goes forward when you press the pedal.
Unless you wanna go backwards!!😅
@@BMWPorscheBMWPorsche Oh god yeah I didn't think of that. 😱😄
I'm soooo not ready for EVs. I am eager for them, but not yet. Reduced power on lesser charge. Cold weather!!! ...just not yet for me. Great comparo, thanks!
On a novated lease on the top tax bracket it's a no brainer cheaper to run a 90k BMW then 40k petrol car
Please compare the lifecycle ev to ice impact on the environment, plus the value of each vehicle after 7 years.
Im interested in the novated lease and ev scenario. Does this count the list price or driveway price.
LCT is “the retail price of the car, including: GST and any customs duty, dealer delivery charges.” So it needs to be under that amount.
@@CarExpertAus cheers. A quick scan of this car on websites, and it's very difficult to get a new one less than $90,000. You're looking at demos or cars with a few thousand clicks on them.
What would be interesting to see is what spirited driving does to the EV range...Never get to see those type of figures...Still good comparrisson.
Why did you compair the 3 Series and not the 4 Series Grand Coupe with the i4? The body shape is more the same?
Yes, the 4 series GC and the i4 are identical.
I think that if he had, the ICE equivalent would have been even more expensive, so the EV would have had an even bigger advantage, price-wise.@@Nick_Smith1970
Things are a bit different in South Africa. The 330i is still R250 000 cheaper than the i4 eDrive35.
In my country the EV’s are still a bit more expensive than ICE cars. If it wasn’t for the change in taxes the i4 35 should be compared to a BMW 320d. As is, I have to get an EV as a company car. The i4 35e hasn’t got enough range (I do have days where I have to drive 300km (also in winter), but the performance is enough. I did get a quote for a nicely equipped i4 edrive40, but it was so expensive. I ended up going for the cheaper option and have a BMW i5 edrive40 on order. In monthly costs it is quite a bit cheaper for me.
18.1 kWh/km is pretty good until I realize it’s a i40 e35 with 18in wheels. Would love to see real life efficiency on the i4 m50 with the 19in wheels.
Outside my price range so irrelevant, but good review.
330i equivalent to i4E40.
This EV I4E35 (entry level), you reviewed would be equivalent to 320i.
Great review !!!!
So EV still more expensive than Petrol vehicles.
No, it wouldn't. The 250 horsepower range of the 330i is comprable to the E35.
The 340i and the E40 both break into the 300+ horsepower range.
Wouldn't mind the same comparison between ix3 msport and X3... :)
What about the re-sale value? Your $9k saving on the purchase price will be more than offset by the massive loss on resale.
the problem with the i4 is that once you have seen the naked mole rat front look, you can't unsee it anymore!
Anyway, the sweet spot is the 40 version
And again, shoul be pointed out that 18kWh/100km equates to 2L/100km in terms of energy used
I wish they simply made an electric 3 Series aesthetically speaking. One of the best looking BMWs IMO.
100% true, i4 is so ugly. 330i is beautiful. Just give us a full electric 330i, problem solved.
I love fossil cars and I love EVs. I find the simplicity of the EV very attractive and the current leasing incentives have made cars that would have been out of my reach, affordable.
Until recently I still wasn't so sure about buying an EV because I don't want a Tesla and all other EVs are either too expensive or simply not very good. BMW i4 is definitely something I would consider for my next car. As a current BMW owner, when shopping for my next BMW, being able to buy an EV at lower price than an equivalent ICE model feels like a bargain. I have access to novated leasing, so buying BMW i4 over something like 330i is a no brainer for me. Only thing holding me back would be if this car will keep the value at the end of 5 years lease, will EVs in 5 years be significantly better in terms of the range and charging speed, and reliability and safety.
I mention in the review that you can look at guaranteed future value. That way there won't be any surprises when the lease is up.
If it’s a lease, you don’t need to worry about resale, plus you win on tax. Also plenty of leasing companies are offering incentives on fuel efficient vehicles. It could make a lot of sense in your situation, but as with everything do your homework before you pull the trigger.
@@rsoul7282 right. I'm no fan of leasing but with EVs I think it is the only way if you don't plan on driving it into the ground.
12.42- I freaked out because the Magpie nearly flew into your 330!
My heart wanted a big suv that eats the fuel but fills the heart with joy. I would feel guilty though and getting an EV would allow me to show my kids that I care enough about the environment and doing my bit.
Haha! So caring.
@@oggyoggy1299 It could be all on my mind, and once I have the money I can't resist and I end up with that 8 cylinder! Only my actions will tell what I value most :)
Getting an EV does not show your kids that you care about the environment. At least not if your focus is on CO2 emissions. Getting a bicycle and using public transport for longer trips might. It will take tens of thousands of Km of driving to break even on CO2 emissions with an otherwise equivalent ICE vehicle. The economic life expectancy of an EV is lower than for an ICE vehicle, all else being similar, due to the high cost of battery replacement. Numbers vary, but as a guide, an EV will incur 60% more CO2 emissions in its manufacturing process. Then there is the much higher EV comprehensive insurance cost for a given RRP.
Based on those consumption figures the EV will save you between $4500 and $8000 over 60000km in fuel costs when charging from home or if you have solar. Glad to see bmw has made its EV sporty and kept true to its reputation. Now all they need to do is get the efficiency up because it is still 50% thirstier than a Tesla model 3 rwd which has identical performance in a straight line.
Lastly as a ex 351 owner it never ceases to amaze me that a 4 cylinder bmw is as quick across the quarter mile as a GTHO falcon that would use 25 litres per 100km!
These or an ioniq5N?
Less mechanical issues in an i4 than a 330i. A 2L turbo engine producing 190kw/400Nm to lug around a 1500Kg sedan, down the track the turbo is going to need replacement if it doesn't grenade the engine.
this is what i am looking for. i am considering 330xi with i4x40, similar lease pmt.
i4 for me despite that carbuncle of a grill.
One thing you missed , the servicing of the petrol car would be more expensive than the electric car ? . Also with electric car’s the tyre wear is much more than the petrol car’s so there’s that . I’m on the fence to which I would buy but if had that kind of money the electric car seems more value for the money :-)
I don't think the tyre wear is that much higher, a Model 3 RWD weighs about 150kg more than a Camry, hardly going to lead to tyre melt down. Also the regen on electric cars means significantly less brake pad and disc replacement.
Majority of EV service schedules appear very similar to their ICE counterparts, do you really think car manufacturers / dealers job is to save you money?
@@somat111 Okay , most EV's are cheaper to service but BMW won't be for sure .
@@somat111No scheduled service intervals on a Tesla! Cheapest brand to operate over 5 years according to Consumer Reports.
Not so. The first service on my i4 consisted of topping up the windscreen washer fluid.
Longer term, the BMW service contract for my i4 was much cheaper than for an ICE BMW. @@somat111
Hey Paul, great review as always. In your opinion, hows the i4 handling capability compare to much cheaper BYD Seal and Tesla Model 3 RWD?
I have 2 BMW, bought it mainly because of handling and engine sound. In my opinion, BMW EV doesn't seem to have any advantage or 'appealing' factor compare to other EV like BYD and Tesla.
Petrol: 6.5 L/100km
EV: 2L/100km (energy equipment)
18.6 kWh/100km
(18.6//8.9 = 2 L/100km)
Hope I calculated it right...
Such a shame the beaver grilled i4 is just so ugly. If it looked like the 330i, Id chose it in a second.
Can you configure the dash to have old fashioned dials or are you stuck with the boomerang style gauges?
Brilliant comparison! I drive the 330e today and I'm considering the i4 as my next car. Cheers all the way over from Sweden!
Paul, since you know both cars, what do you reckon i4 or Tesla model 3?
I think since both are quite good cars it is a matter of taste. Apple or Orange?
You cannot compare a downmarket brand like Tesla with a premium car like BMW.
@@PJ21212but the downmarket brand gets more range, speed, power, tech (FSD, sound system, phone key) and for a lesser price
I had an I4 as a rental and was pleasantly surprised by comfort and performance . I never thought of buying one but the novated lease with guaranteed buy back could change that.
The bonus with the i4 boot space is, you can throw the rear seats down and it becomes huge. Not so in the 3 series.
Now what about resale
I mentioned the availability of guaranteed resale value in the video.
The cost savings continues to mount the longer you own an EV because of the cheaper fuel (at least in the US). Plus, there is the whole thing about reducing the impact of fossil fuels on climate change. I loved your review, but you did not mention this benefit even once. That surprised me in particular because you are in Australia, where (1) I understand your summer temperatures have been breaking records and (2) you have so much sunshine that solar collectors on your house could negate the charging energy (your car would then be "off-grid" and essentially free to drive). The last thing you did not mention is the dramatically reduced cost to service the vehicle. I am on my second Tesla already and the servicing cost is almost nil. Compare that to oil changes, fluid changes, brake service, etc, etc for petrol cars. In my mind the advantage has shifted to EVs a long time ago.
330i M-Sport is actually cheaper. BMW advertises the car as a little over $100k driveaway. I just bought the latest 330i m-sport and went to 5 different dealerships, they are all selling them for ~$77k driveaway. BMW realised they overpriced the car and are now "discounting" them all across Australia when you enquire for one brand new.
I think this is a major reason why BMW 3 Series is outselling the Mercedes C Class in Australia where there is no price negotiation on a Merc.
330i Rough ride and loud interior? Was there something wrong with your car? All the research I've done suggests the 3 Series, be it the 320i, 330i, or even M340i is comfier and quieter than the C-Class, from DB noise tests and just the general feel, and about on par with the A4/A5? Having driven an M340i with adaptive dampers myself it was the comfiest car I've ever driven, and even quieter inside than my W177 A-class and new X1
That would be entirely dependent on whether you can charge your EV at home, if not the petrol car will win hands down.
Why not have both 😃
the fuel consumption of the 3 series is not for urban drivers. 4800kms in 3d18h(90h), means the average speed is 53km/h which is pretty high.
Good day, I'm Javier.😂
$95k for entry level is insult
In my country people are trading their g20 330i's for BYD Seal Performance..
How many people have done that in your country?
Yes in genovia
Swedish magasize ”Teknikens värld” tested BYD Seal. They put in on zero fiction Rollers. And They found out that BYD seal did not drive in any situation with ITS front axel wheels. They even took an other car for test and it had same behaviour. They even verified that there were drive shafts going into front wheels..
What is the cost to install a charger at home, most people will need this too… it’s gotta (better) be less than the 9k price difference that’s for sure
I bought an iX3 from BMW in South Africa, slightly used too(8500km) ,it came with the charger and installation for free.
Depending on your circumstances, you might not need a charger. We run a Model 3 RWD and a Model Y RWD using 240V 10 amp normal power socket and it works fine for us. That generally adds 2kW per hour. I was planning to add a charger but found a standard socket worked fine combined with my cheap EV tariff times, so saved the c.A$1.5k cost of installing a charger.
A cheaper end level 2 AC charger is the tesla gen 3 wall connector, it works with other EVs besides Tesla's (I use it to charge my Kia EV6). $720. Install cost for me was $1100.
I had a similar dilemma 2 years ago. Buy a i4 edrive40, or keep our E60 M5 and get a Model Y. They cost similar. I think a V10 that goes 8k+rpm is unique, the Model Y is also a better EV.
in every country the tax authority decides which car I should buy; no other market is so much distorted by tax than the automotive market
Maybe the controversy around the i7 and 760 comparison forced Paul to incline towards electric this time. As much I agree with the recommendation, in terms of practicality 3 series is a lot better than i4 (or simply 4 series electrified). I’ve driven both.
Why do you consider 3-series as the more practical one? For long trips it is clearly much faster choice as you can just fill petrol tank VS fast charging. However in terms of space and practicality I find that i4 is better. It also offers big hatch VS small boot lid.
The sleeper in this discussion is total cost of ownership and life expectancy of the i4.
What happens when the battery warranty runs out after 8 years and the battery dies 2 years later?
According to the EV Viking BMW batteries are incredibly expensive and an owner could be faced with a bill of around $40,000 plus!
At this point in time the battery will cost more than the i4 is worth - so what does the owner do?
The 330i will still be running fine assuming quality service - so I am struggling to see how the i4 is a better proposition?
What is needed is EV manufacturers is to have an economical battery changeover service - but meanwhile consumers are carrying the risk of owning an expensive ticking time bomb. This means EV’s will be sold after 3 or 4 years to pass the problem on to the next buyer!
You are running the fallacy of applying the price for a battery replacement _today_ into a situation 10 years into the future.
And the turbocharged inlines of a BMW will need that attention to keep them running. The issue with finely tuned high performance engines is that any small problems quickly become big problems if you let them slide for any amount of time.
A 4 cylinder engine in a BMW is kind of a travesty so I’d skip both
I've fallen out of love with EVs. And LCD dashes. Give the driver actual real analogue gauges pls.
I wouldnt stress the battery on an electric. The power just drops like a rock and there is the risk of thermal runaways. Not to mention any minor hump or bump on that battery and that will be another reason to worry.
Why? 4 series grand coupe...
Any apple CarPlay problems in new 5 series?
The comparison should be petrol Vs diesel Vs electric 😉
No diesel 3 available in Australia
As someone who owns 3 BMWs 2007-2014 this all screen tablet interior is just uglyyyy ,cant even watch it
I'm waiting for when new cars will be fun to drive again.
25:24 This is what EV averse people don't get. I have a friend who just bought 2 cars, an Amorok to tow the caravan and a VW T-Cross for his wife. I asked him what was the longest trips she drove. He said about 5 kms to the local shopping centre..... Surely, an EV is a no brainer for those 5 km trips?
I think a grand coupe 4 series would have gave more insight
Aren’t Initial cost savings for an EV gonna be offset with cost of installing solar , possibly a battery and a smart charger at home ?
Why do you need solar a battery or fast charger? Average Australian drives 40km per day that's 7kwh for the I4. From a standard power point you can get 2.4KW so 3 hours to get your daily kms or more likely you would charge for 12 hours overnight every 4 days.
Depreciation?
I mentioned the availability of guaranteed resale value in the video.
BMW pricing is a joke. I bought a 330i bran new 3 years ago for 74900. How has it gone up that much in 3 years?
you think it’s only BMW doing this?
I'm thinking an extreme amount of work to set this up. So for that thank you. It's a good pointer to why electric is a no brainer. And we didn't mention a single forest. Which is really the point.
If you think that going electric is a no brainer, I would suggest that you are a no brainer. There are many problems that EVs don't solve, and also some significant problems created by them. Definitely an option, but not a no brainer by any means.
@@mark7620ok list them.
Why did they have make the i4 so ugly to make a statement? I'm a hardcore BMW fanboy too but the iX and i4 are truly hideous and ugly to look at.
Because there are more buyers who think the car isn’t ugly compared to people who can’t afford the car and think it is ugly.
The EV acceleration test was reminiscent of being on a Sydney train
It's German so neither. Sell it to some "aspirational" buyer as we did when I worked a used car lot. The further either are away the less one hears the screams after the owner gets their repair bills.
Well hate to tell you but BMW have ceased production of the 330 for new orders. Can only get an i4
I drive the i4 e35 last year basically straight off the boat (the demo car had to be taken out of transport mode). Nice car but it had the same problem all other ev do - Tesla.
I bought the model 3 long range. Better car in every way. Price, performance, features, safety and efficiency. The BMW has a more recognisable badge. Not enough.
I find it an easy choice. I find the big ugly fake grill on the front of the i4 so offensive I wouldn’t own it if it had a 1000km range, did 0 - 100 in half a second, recharged itself overnight from stray radio waves and cost $2000. I really do hate it that much. And to show that this is not about ev or ice vehicles, I feel the same way about the M3. What are BMW thinking.
The hate is real for the ugly i4 and G8X series cars. I agree, I hate them too. No one I know likes them. Truly repulsive!